← Surrounded
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- [00:00]
A
As long as it is okay to discriminate against fat people, I'm always gonna want to fight for that fight.
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B
You can fight that fight in any size pant. Marcie I almost come at this from like death protest too much. I'm a fat person and I'm a fat person. I can't talk like who gives a. I don't give a f this kind of who cares?
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A
We are othered in the world constantly. Constantly. So it's very hard to step out of that identity when it is mirrored constantly to me that it is wrong to be fat. Get in the game with the College Branded Venmo debit card. Wreck your team with every tap and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash, a new rewards program from Venmo. No monthly fee, no minimum balance, just school pride and spending power. Get in the game and sign up for the Venmo debit card@venmo.com collegecard the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA Select Schools available Venmo stash terms and exclusive apply at Venmo me terms max $100 cash back per month. This episode is brought to you by Redfin.
- [01:08]
B
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- [01:21]
A
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B
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- [01:35]
C
welcome back from Surrounded into the Surrounded follow up.
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A
Thanks for having us.
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C
The I feel like the energy is so positive. And how are you guys feeling?
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B
Mars.
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A
I mean, I. It was such an interesting experience. Experience to, you know, be in that room and meet Jillian and, you know, since then I think there's been a lot to think about. And yeah, I mean, I'm always excited to have a conversation like this. I love this topic. I think that anybody with a body is gonna be interested in this conversation. So I'm just happy to be here and happy to see both of you.
- [02:15]
B
We kind of cheated a little bit because we have been talking just about
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A
like even
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B
we have, but as friends. So to be fair, like, we did have some conversations about this, but she's also been trying to help me cast certain people on my podcast and just been having random conversations about different stuff. So the Epstein list. So to Be fair. Like, if there's a familiarity, it's just simply because we've had some offline chats.
- [02:43]
C
I love that.
- [02:44]
A
I love that we may or may not have had lunch together. And, I mean, even that is like, what do you order for lunch when you're with Jillian? Michael? Except that she took me to a very healthy place, and so it was quite easy to make my decision. But, you know what I think is so beautiful about this? And I think that what is needed more now ever, is people from opposite sides talking. And, you know, your show is called surrounded, and it's 20 to 1, but what we need more of is 1 to 1. And, you know, I remember growing up and people from all different sides of politics or whatever would talk, and you would go to a friend's house. And I remember meeting my friend in high school who. Her family was Democrat, and at my Catholic high school, they were, like, the only ones. But, you know, it wasn't the way it is now, where we're just so polarized and. Yeah, I mean, I think it's like, Jillian's a human, I'm a human. And we made a connection that day. That conversation was electric. And there is something that both of us have to offer one another. And I mean, hopefully we'll continue to have that talk here with you.
- [03:50]
C
Well, wonderful. I. You guys did all the work for me. This is great. I'm gonna. We're gonna play a clip just so you can kind of relive and kind of reflect on sort of your interaction. But I agree with you, Marcy. It was really. There was chemistry. It was really interesting. It got really personal. You both had kind of a great rapport. So let's watch a clip of that, and then I'd love to kind of hear what it brings up for you.
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B
Shame is a signal. It's telling you, hey, look over here.
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A
But shame from the world.
- [04:22]
B
I'm not talking about shaming someone. Fundamentally disagree with that concept. I'm talking about the shame that is already there, not externalizing it. I'm talking about appreciating the fact, like, okay, this is arising from within me. Where is this coming from? And where?
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A
Why?
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B
What is the primal injury that begot this emotion? And subsequently, how do I deal with it? Where it's appropriate, meaning the right. Like, not Victoria's Secret, okay? The primal wound. And then in experiencing that loss, feeling those feelings, which really sucks and really hurts, which is why people have defense structures, coping mechanisms, so on and so forth, the way through that you feel it and Then after you grieve it, after you explore it, then we can implement a weight release.
- [05:13]
A
No trauma.
- [05:15]
B
No, I've released it.
- [05:17]
A
And therefore, then I will be thin. Here's the thing, John. I want to be really real about this. And I am so committed and have built this brand and the plus size and body acceptance and fat acceptance world, but it's like, there's nothing more. And I'll just speak for myself. I won't speak for all fat people as a monolith, because they aren't. But there's nothing that someone that I would want more than to sit across from someone like Jillian, the world's basically foremost trainer, and be like, yeah, let's go. Put me on your plan. Fix me. Let's go. Do I think that people that have trauma are like, why? What about all the thin people with trauma? Like, why did I get that gene? You know, like, what is that? That's where it's, like, hard for me. Because one, I want to acknowledge not only how beautiful and eloquent and interesting Jillian is to listen to, but it's like, if it's. No, you are. I mean, obviously it's like, you're not a therapist. You're not a therapist, you're not a politician, and yet here you are being like, given these platforms to speak at a level of expertise that it's like, you're not dumb. I know that you've, you, you've put a lot of work and research into all of these things. And I think that all of it makes sense to a degree. And there's just parts of it, you know, that I struggle with. And so I just want to acknowledge that for me, it's like to sit across their Magellan Michaels and say, yeah, like, I would want to help you. Whether you want to call it an intervention or whatever, it would be foolish of me to say, no, thank you. I might want to say, this doesn't work for me. That doesn't work for me. And I think that's part of meeting in the middle. But, yeah, I mean, for me, what I would love to have a weight release. I don't certainly want to feel shoulder pain when I wake up in the morning from sleeping on my side. I understand the physical limitations that, you know, being a bigger bodied person will have eventually. I also know that this is my genetics, in part. And so there's just. It's like such a multifaceted thing.
- [07:14]
B
Well, first of all, thank you, sweetheart. And it's absolutely a mutual admiration and appreciation for the way you Communicate and the way you present yourself and who you are in the world and. Okay, there's a lot to unpack there. I'm trying to figure out where I want to go first. I would say off the top, this. I would never work with you under the pretense of an intervention, because an intervention implies you're going down the wrong path and we have to jump in. You know, you, myself, and all your loved ones. I've contacted all of them. I'm sure there's a time and a place for that. That's nothing that I personally engage in. For me, I can only be effective when I have a partnership with somebody who wants to utilize me as a tool. That's. That's all that I am. I can't be the captain of your ship. You know, you and I have kind of had a little bit of that conversation. I would. Truthfully, I think of myself like a vampire. I don't bite unless you invite me in. I really don't care what's on your plate. I don't care what's in your grocery. Yeah, but seriously, if somebody asks me for help, well, now you've engaged me, and now I'll participate in the ways you tell me you'll find useful. So I want to clarify that. That if Marcy tells me, okay, Jill, you seem to understand a lot about nutrition. You seem to understand a lot about fitness. You seem to understand a lot about how to facilitate weight loss on a physiological level. You seem to have some understanding of the psychological elements to this. Some of it rings true for me. Some of it doesn't. I'm 100% here for that, but it has to start there. And that's what I think is so important, is, like, we're both like, okay, so where do we go? The next thing I would say to you is what rings true for you and then what doesn't? So I would explore. Continue to explore this. So my question to you is, when you watch that talk and you hear all the things that were said, what comes up for you that feels on target?
- [09:13]
A
I mean, I think that what fat liberation has given to me is liberation, right? It's like liberation in general. I think that the fat world is very queer. There's a lot of intersection. And so, in general, coming from a more conservative background, I think that fat liberation has really just pushed me towards general liberation, feminism, understanding the patriarchy, understanding how we all operate, kind of table.
- [09:39]
B
All. All the table. I just want to hear about, okay,
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A
shame, shame and shame. I want to hear, yes, Tell me
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B
how Marcy feels to me.
- [09:48]
A
I have done so much work to liberate myself from shame and fear being raised in what we call Hispanic panic. So constant fear, right of the world of all sorts of things. And fear and shame is just something I feel like I've worked so hard to let go of. And mostly it's probably shame around other things. Not having a traditional lifestyle, not wanting children, being divorced, which is a new thing that I'm adding to my plate of things to be ashamed of. So for me, it's like, I just don't think that the shame, the way of using shame as a tool, it just doesn't resonate with me. It feels really abusive. Like it just doesn't feel right.
- [10:33]
C
Well, when I watch that clip, you know, I see you really engaging with the ideas that Jillian's presenting you. And then at the very end, when you do that kind of weight release, I'm like, oh, wait, maybe, maybe they're not landing as I thought, but this idea of shame being kind of a signal. Gillian's kind of pointing out, like shame is coming from within and it's maybe like a survival signal. And so maybe not the shame. There's maybe a distinction like shame that people put on you that can be just mean spirited and not necessarily something that's constructive. And you're kind of expressing, I want to be liberated from that. But Jillian's sort of talking about this other idea of shame, like a signal from within, like almost like a biological thing. Like, hey, this is me saying to protect myself. Does that resonate with you? Do you see light between those two concepts?
- [11:24]
B
To clarify, John, real quick, also, where to do some work. So if I could address just one thing you said right there, where you're talking about your divorce, another thing to feel ashamed about. That's something I would explore with you. Why do you feel ashamed about that? What comes up for you there? Yeah, I've been through divorce and it was really hard and really awful and I felt horrible for my children, but I'm not ashamed of it. So this is. This is something that is sitting with you. Why? And I think there's a place that we could help you evolve out of pain. The shame is telling you I have pain here. I feel less than in these areas. This makes me feel weak and insecure. Why? And so what I'm telling you is that, oh my God, this is a great area for you to explore in order to evolve out of that pain. That's what I'm saying. I'm not Saying you should feel. Feel ashamed. No, no, no, no, no. Telling you it's a spotlight and it should be utilized as such to just articulate a bit further on top of what John said.
- [12:29]
A
I mean, yes, here's the thing. It's really also hard for me as a fat person to, like, be here and be like, yeah, I sat with Jillian Michaels, and, like, I kind of, like, I'm kind of into it. You know, I think this is a person. And, you know, I think the elephant in the room. And we did sort of start to talk about it, and even in that clip, I was like, wait, are you talking about the show or not? You know, I think so many people wanted to see you in the documentary and, like, want to hear. And I know you've talked about it on your podcast, your experiences of the show and what I have taken away as well is, like, again, meeting you as a person, seeing that, it's actually very fun. Y' all should try it. Talking to people of different points of view, it makes for very interesting lunches and dinners. But, you know, as a fat person who did not watch the Biggest Loser, so was not personally attacked by it, was not personally affected by it. You know what, as a TV producer, I know also happened to you is that you were vilified. You were put as this. Stop, stop.
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B
No, you did.
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A
You don't need to just.
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B
It's like.
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A
I'm just saying. I can buy into what you're saying. It's just. You are also the face of what so many fat people are like, oh, my God, no, Satan. It's the. You know, it's the biggest. I'm.
- [13:42]
B
Can I address that?
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A
Yes.
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B
What I'm hearing from you. What I'm hearing from you is that. And you have said this now, I've counted, I think, at least eight times
- [13:50]
A
as a fat person. As a fat person.
- [13:52]
B
As a fat person. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but the fact that you feel the need to reiterate it shows me that it's become a structure within your identity. And I think there's some element of betrayal that you're implicating about talking to me. It's like, but as a fat person, I can't talk to you. But as a fat person, it's disloyal. But as a fat person, you're the enemy. And that's also very interesting. You know, what. What are you guarding against? I would say, what does being a fat person mean to you? Is it some sort of, like, again, Marcy, I almost come at this from like death protest too much. I'm a fat person and I'm a fat person. I can't talk like, who gives? I don't give a. This kind of. Who cares? What you're telling me is that you're a person who was hurt and that pain manifested in a certain way. That's all I see. I kind of wish you'd see it in a similar fashion because by making it a part of your identity, you're holding onto something that's quite honestly irrelevant and doesn't serve you. I'm not telling you it's bad. I'm not telling you to judge yourself for it. I kind of actually want you to remove any opinion or label around it and just explore mercy.
- [15:11]
A
Yes. And I think it as I've grown up literally always in this body, I've literally never been thin. And even when I look at photos now and I'm like, oh, if I looked that way, you would think I had cancer. Like, I was so thin and I thought I was so fat. So I do think it's a part of my identity and I think that that is part of what's so challenging, I think, even to like get across in these conversations. It's like it may not have to be a part of actually, even if I lost weight, I think it would always be a part of my identity somehow. Because even the way that I think it affects people psychologically after they're fat. Like, when you hear people who are like, I lost £200 and people treat me super differently and you know, I'm a confident person. So that's like the one thing that's like, okay, if I lost weight, I'd probably still be vivacious and confident in all of these things. But we are othered in the world constantly. Constantly. So it's very hard to step out of that identity when it is mirrored constantly to me that it is wrong to be fat. That I am told by every billboard, every ad on Instagram, you know, everything in society, if you're looking at the news at all, and obviously there's a lot going on. But in body politics, it's like it is a constant message that one should shrink and be thinner and smaller. So it is almost constantly a reminder that I'm that. And I have used it to my benefit. I own two plus size stores. You know, I'm here on this conversation. If I wasn't fat, I wouldn't be here.
- [16:48]
C
And Marcy, maybe it is worth pointing out, like, and I, this is sort of my Read on. Everyone here is like, we all see each other as valid human beings, like, unconditionally. Like, everyone here is an equal in the sense that, like, we all are valuable humans, but we all have unique circumstances. And I would love to hear more from Jillian at some point about like, what it's been like to navigate having a public Persona that is, you know, some perceived to not be a good thing and tied to things that are outside our control. We can go there. But I think something we're both interested in is like if we strip away kind of the societal thing and we go and we zoom in on you talking to yourself, what does that sound like? You know, like when we talk about that shame. What is that inner monologue sound like when it's just you and you, John,
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B
you're trying to take my job.
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A
Look at you. I'm like, wait, wait, is this an intervention, you guys?
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B
Pretty, pretty impressive.
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C
My wife is a therapist. She's actually a therapist. So I exposed.
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B
Yeah. So you get it.
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A
Of course. What's therapy? No, I'm just kidding.
- [17:59]
C
No, but, but I mean, I again, I do want to like flip it on Jillian at some point because we don't want to just dial in on you. But I think that's where Jillian, I
- [18:07]
A
mean, we could, we could make it
- [18:08]
B
about you and we probably could make
- [18:10]
C
it all about you.
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B
Bit more interesting, to be honest.
- [18:14]
A
So my internal narrative right now, to be honest with you, and I'm afraid to be like radically honest sometimes because of as we were saying, this like loyalty and this community that I've built and these brand I've built and you know, my internal monologue is as a influencer or sort of plus size personality, I should stay fat. They are all getting thin. They are all. Every body positive influencer that's like made anything of themselves is on a GLP1 and they're losing weight. So a part of me is like, this is great for business that I'm the fattest I've ever been, because I can capitalize on that and be that beacon of hope for people that feel like they're losing the people that they see right and left. My own internal dialogue about, like, myself and who I think I am and like how I value myself really has nothing to do with my body. It has to do with how I treat people and my relationships and my accomplishments. And I would say that in general it's like very positive. But I think that the underlying, like what I describe is like a NASDAQ ticker. The NASDAQ ticker of my life has always been that I should lose weight. So while I have always been told that I should be confident and walk into any room like I own it and. And that I'm beautiful, it has always been. And if you could get a little thinner, that would be great. And it really wasn't until about a year ago that I started to quiet that voice. Because when I tell you that I couldn't get out of bed at 3am without thinking about going on Ozempic and it was an incessant, obtrusive thought like that is not who I want to be. That's not my internal monologue. And it's hard to say what will take out the billboards. It's like I can take out the billboards, but I don't know. It's just. You can't take the billboards out of me. No, I don't know. It's just. It's to me the. The narrative of you're beautiful and you're great and you're amazing and you're talented has always been there. And with this caveat of. But just like. Just always try to like lose weight and it's just. It's exhausting. It's. It's frankly just like I am exhausted of that.
- [20:30]
B
Okay, walk me back. When was the first message of you have to be thinner?
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A
It stems back to childhood, Jillian. It really does. I remember like I said it in the show, asking for Ding Dongs and them coming in a different package and being like, this isn't a Ding Dong. My mom.
- [20:48]
C
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- [22:18]
A
Mommy wound is only because of her own trauma, of course. Multi generational. It gets into the epigenetics. It gets into how she raised me. Maybe you don't know you're on a D till you're like six, and then you go to your aunt's house who's like, anything you want right here. What do you want? The grocery store will get you whatever. What did I want? I wanted Yoo Hoo like everybody else because I wasn't allowed to have Yoo Hoo. I wasn't allowed to have a Ding Dong when I came home and I said, I want Ding Dongs in my lunch. You know what my mom bought me?
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B
Low fat Ding Dongs starting at the primary wound.
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A
Mom? Yeah, of course.
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B
Because the. And it's cliche, but it's cliche because it's true for all of us. There is. That is the primary relationship. It is quite literally primal. Your relationship with your mother is your literal survival as an infant and a child.
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A
Okay?
- [23:14]
B
So starting there then becomes a pattern that you are feeling and experiencing. It is very real. I'm not taking that away from you. But what ends up happening, honey, it's like if I told you, Marcy, close. We're sitting in a room and I say, close your eyes and tell me all the places you know. I want you to take. Take note of everything in the room that's red.
- [23:38]
A
Okay?
- [23:39]
B
I'm sorry. Open your eyes. Take note of everything in the room that's red. You look around the room. Got 60 seconds. You're like, red, red, red, red over there. Red in the cushion. Close your eyes, tell me everywhere there's blue. You'll have no idea you're looking for red because that's what's playing out inside of you all of the time. And what I'm trying to tell you is that when the work is done on the primary wound, the billboard doesn't matter anymore. You will see A different color in the room. And I know because I'm talking to you about something that's several steps away. So for a person that you're like, listen, I'm trying to stand up right now. You're talking to me about sprinting. You're absolutely right, which is why I'm like, let's not talk about the billboard. Let's come back to the primary thing and explore those feelings. So I also think what's happening for you is that you're then like, I'm good how I am. I'm good how I am. I'm good how I am. And you're rejecting the rejecter, which is also how you survived. It's like, oh, you don't love me like this. Well, you. I love me like this. You, I love me like this. Which is another way to kind of survive that sort of pain, is you reject the rejector. Okay? All of this makes perfect sense. The ways that you would engage in utilizing food as a coping mechanism, a defense structure, a way to manage pain, a way to manage these family dynamics. And then at the same time, you're also talking to me about feeling like you're abandoning your community. And that's something else I would want to explore, because it sounds to me like you probably felt abandoned at some point, which we all have. But my concern is that, because that hurt you so bad, whatever happened, whoever abandoned you, you're like, I can't abandon. I can't abandon this community. And by the way, you're not abandoning them because you decide to get a little bit healthier. Marcy, like, you and I are friends. I'm not a body positivity activist. Probably the opposite. So what's this?
- [25:50]
A
You're a body negativity activist?
- [25:53]
B
That's me.
- [25:54]
C
No, no, no. Let's go back real life. What about all that that Jillian just said, though? Marcy? What. What. What do you think about that?
- [26:02]
A
I mean, you know, it gets. It gets into all of the things. It's like, what is healthy? Blah, blah, blah, Blood work, this and that. Okay. Obviously, like, I would like to fit on a plane without having to buy two seats. And I don't want to have to, like, fight for my life to get those two seats the way that some of my fat colleagues, you know, my. You know, it's like the things that are happening just, like, in the travel industry for fat people. This is like a basic human rights thing. That's where I feel. It's like I feel connected to it as a human. Like, I want to keep fighting for this, which I know me going on hikes and eating chicken and brown rice can still. I could still be a fat activist. I know plenty of thin ones. I think that self acceptance is a gift. I think body neutrality is a gift. I think that if your body is shutting down on you and you're whatever, I don't even want to get into like, stat, I'm not a doctor. So, you know, whatever it is that like, we all know, this is the thing any human that has a body knows when the body is telling them that something is wrong or off, right? The body keeps the score. I love that book. I think it translates to many things outside of just fatness. But I think that the general idea, which the sort of the claim that Jillian I connected on was that body positivity is fundamentally disempowering. And that for me is just like, I'm never going to ever agree with that statement. And you can call it body positivity, body neutrality, self acceptance, fat liberation. Body positivity is just like a phrase that was coined, really a phrase that was co opted by white women. But body positivity started as a movement during the civil rights era by fat black women that wanted to tell all of the white women that weren't including them in this sort of body liberation movement, the fat liberation movement, they weren't including their black counterparts. That's how body positivity started. So it really isn't about, like, I feel great about my body. It just means, like, we're included in the conversation. So for me, it's like I have adopted more of this body neutrality or self acceptance acceptance label. And that doesn't mean that I'm just gonna like drink all this soda all day and like, you know, just not give two shits about my size or my weight and never move my body again. No, I move my body. And like Jillian has said, joyful movements, bullshit. It's like to me, joyful movements, the only thing that gets me moving and going on a hike with a friend is joyful to me. And meeting a trainer at the gym is joy, joyful to me. And it's a privilege to be able to do so. I move my body now because I can. So for me, it's like to say, because body positivity was the hook that got me in. And if I will say just kind of shut that NASDAQ ticker off, right? Or just lowered the volume and when the volume is so loud on the fact that your body is wrong your whole life, it's Oppressive. It's just. It's just frankly oppressive. And that's why people are running towards this body positivity world. That's all I can say. It's like, I truly feel like it saved me. And whatever I need to do with my body and my fitness and my food in order for my, you know, physiology, you know, my body to function the best, that's. That's on the table. And that's a different thing, though. But for me, body neutrality and self acceptance has helped lower the volume on that track in my mind. I need my ambition turned up. I need my drive to work and perform and to get out there and like, do something more than I need to be thin. And that's also fascism. Like, thinness rises in fascism. And that's, you know, that's the other thing. Right now we are taught, especially as women, to be smaller and quieter. And being hungry makes you really quiet. When you're hungry, you're really, really. It makes it really hard to fight.
- [30:15]
C
It gets so big, the ideas. And I think I would agree with a lot of some of those concepts, but I think I'm so much more interested in like an intimate.
- [30:26]
A
Sure. I mean, I'm happy to, like, talk about me. I just. It's also like, I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone that like, you know, has built a business on this, has been in this community, industry, whatever you want to call it. So it's also just like, it is really big to me and it is a fight that's not just my fight, because you know what? I still fit on a plane in just one seat.
- [30:50]
C
Right, right, right. I guess what I'm saying is I don't think Jillian is unaligned with you on like, a lot of those higher level things.
- [30:58]
B
100%. 100%. And if I told you right now, you could be Marcy, 170 pound Marcy or Marcy, wherever the heck we are today, Marcy. And you can still fight the good fight for all these people.
- [31:12]
A
Yes.
- [31:13]
B
Okay, so then that conversation is over. We're done having it. We both are in agreement. Now we can fight about the seat belt with whoever you want till all the days of the rest of your. Your life. Okay, done. Take that conversation off the table. The. The next thing you have to determine, leaving that now on the sideline because it's been asked and answered, is what does Marcy actually want for Marcy? And then subsequently, is there anything getting in the way of that or is Marcy perfectly happy where we are? Today. So what does Marcy want for Marcy? That's the question.
- [31:49]
A
What do I want for myself? Like, fulfillment? I don't know that. That feels a very big question.
- [31:57]
B
I don't know is the number one answer when you're defending against something painful.
- [32:03]
A
I don't know.
- [32:04]
B
I don't know. I don't know.
- [32:06]
A
I mean, if you were to say, like, what do you want romantically? What do you want professionally? What do you want, like, your body to look like? I could answer probably each of those individually.
- [32:16]
B
I'll take each and every one.
- [32:18]
A
Okay. Romantically, I'm currently decentering romance, so I'd like to, you know, be in and around people that make me feel great, that want to spend time with me, that value me. I think that self worth is a big piece of this puzzle. I do. I think that unfortunately, whether it's big or small, I'll say related to me. I think that self worth is always on the table, especially when it's being constantly questioned because you're fat. So I want someone. I want to value myself and my time in a way that I proceed with caution on who I'm spending it with. I would like professionally to be, you know, I mean, listen, I would love to heal people and educate people through entertainment. I think that television and things like this show are the most impactful way to teach people things. I would love to be fit. I would love arms like Michelle Obama's. But I don't want to be smaller necessarily. I don't long to be thin when, you know, people discuss, like, there's a thin woman within waiting to get out. Like, I ate her. I don't think she's in there. But, you know, is there a strong person? Is there a stronger person? I've been stronger in my life. And, you know, listen, I had a really wonderful husband, and him and I have spent a really wonderful time together, but he was very sedentary, and I used to be much more active when I was single. And so I want to get back to myself. Like, that's really what I want. And that for me is movement. And it is, you know, prioritizing myself and spending my time in a way that, like, I want. I've moved more in the last three weeks than I have probably in the last three years. So I'm getting back to myself. And I think ultimately, like, we're in a simulation right now. We're, like, operating like, this is a hard time to be alive.
- [34:08]
C
So I really did real it in varsity.
- [34:10]
A
I don't know John, I don't know what you want me to say. Like, what do I want? Like, I want a Jubilee show. And I want. You know, I don't know.
- [34:20]
B
This is a great start. This is a great start. I love this. Okay, so I am getting something to kind of come back to this one idea, and I think there is something very real that will. That will create a problem for you. And I shouldn't have sidelined it. That was a mistake. And it is the. It is the fear that you will be abandoning your community. And that's very big. I can feel it. So let's talk about that. What are you afraid that you're going to do to them? How are you afraid you're going to make them feel, how you're afraid they're going to feel? How do you feel they'll react to you? Like, I can see there's something catastrophic potentially there for you.
- [35:01]
A
You know, a part of me is like, nothing is catastrophic except for what is actually catastrophic. So a part of me is kind of like, you know, I've been canceled before. I don't. I think it's just. It's a choice. Having a conversation with you, A second conversation with you is a choice. Being friends with you, it's a choice being canceled.
- [35:21]
C
Look, like, that's it. Is that the fear?
- [35:23]
B
That's it.
- [35:25]
A
You know what it is? I mean, I actually really do have a business. I own a clothing store. It is for size 10 and up. It's for size large enough. So, you know, a part of me wants no one to know that I even own that store, so it can just operate and exist in the world outside of me. And yet, at the same time, the reality is, is that, like, I am the face of the store. I am the one representing the clothes. And if people think I've turned my back on them, on the community, right? Like, maybe they won't shop there. And, like, that's my livelihood. And. No, it isn't really, because I am a TV producer, and I've always wanted to be a TV host. And so is it my livelihood? It's actually not. It's really a labor of love. The community has always had problems with me. So the reality is that what my loyalty is to, is to my friend, who I won't name, who is getting on a plane and is just embarrassed by a flight attendant because they need a seatbelt extender.
- [36:25]
B
No, come back to you. We're enabling the seat belt extender.
- [36:31]
A
You said, like, I think that overall, I can't get out of the bigger picture. Because it's like, as long as it is okay to discriminate against fat people, I'm always gonna want to fight for that fight.
- [36:45]
B
But, Mama, listen to me. You can fight that fight in any size pant. Okay? So I'm hearing a little bit of survivor's guilt, which is very interesting. It's like, I can't abandon her with a seatbelt fight. And I'm here to tell you you don't have to. So, you know, that's. Again, that's something else that we could. We could explore, but I probably get there at a different time.
- [37:08]
A
It's just like. It's so. Everything is so divisive right now, like, politically. And then it's like, you add. If you go into, like, the comments. The comments I'm gonna get on this vid, on the jubilee video, the comments that I'm gonna get, it's like, they are gonna be so hateful, and it's gonna be all about how I look.
- [37:30]
B
Babe, listen to me. Do you have any idea? Okay, years ago, when I was paying attention to comments, it's gotta be 20 years ago, at least. Suze Orman, I don't know if you know, her, is a big money guru. And she's like, jillian, listen. You know, the dogs keep barking and the elephants keep walking. And the reality is that. The reality is simply that if they're not talking about you, you're doing something wrong. And the people who are negative are the most vocal. And you kind of just learn that all of those negative comments mean you're touching a nerve, you're sparking a needed conversation. And then, Marcy, here's the thing. Who cares? This is what I mean. Like, there are millions of people that hate me.
- [38:24]
C
I don't know.
- [38:24]
B
I don't care. Who cares?
- [38:26]
C
That's actually. Jillian. That's actually really interesting, because what Marcy. What I'm hearing from Marcy is like, her whole life is stacked in this. Cause it's like friendship, money, ambition, identity, you know, and then, you know, the devaluation of people she's close to. And so it feels like everything's on the line.
- [38:46]
B
Yeah.
- [38:47]
C
If she can't thread the needle between being a healthier version of herself that she's told us that she wants and abandoning this whole life. So that feels kind of crazy. But I. You know, I feel like Marcy's been in the vulnerable seat for the majority of this time. And I'm curious what it's been like for you, because, you know, you were In a show that sort of drew a lot of heat and was, like, the center of kind of cultural conversations. And I'm sure you've been sort of. And you have a podcast that's political. So, like, you've been in the crosshairs of controversy for a long time. What have you learned from it? What was maybe, like, a low point for you?
- [39:32]
B
You know, I hate to tell you, I don't really have one. I'm true to what is in my heart, and I follow that North Star. And I just know that if it's in my heart, it's in my heart for a reason, whether it's for somebody to hate me and explore that feeling of hate, or whether it's to potentially inspire someone to evolve in some aspect of their life or to better understand somebody that they don't agree with or to be totally irrelevant to their world. I don't really have any focus on the external world in that way.
- [40:14]
C
But if we were to zoom in, you know, we were trying to get to Marcy's inner monologue, what she's saying to herself. What does your inner monologue sound like?
- [40:22]
B
Honestly, my inner monologue is just very rooted in speaking what is true to me and trying to listen and gain differing perspectives on what's true for other people. And I know I'm externalizing this, but. But unfortunately, with everything I do, it comes from something I'm passionate about. So, for example, if I'm talking about a controversial issue like the transing of children, Marcy may passionately disagree with me about that, but it's because, for me, I'm like, this is. This is insane. This has to stop. I have to say something. And she might feel like, oh, my God, I totally disagree. And Jillian's, you know, oppressing these children. This is insane. And I have to have to say something. So I think that's really where. I mean, my inner dialogue, honestly, is just looking at the world and feeling like I have to fight a good fight. And it's not a tribal fight for me. I'm targeting what I perceive to be as bad ideas, no matter what side of the aisle they're on. So while the show that I work on is political, it's really about, for me, principles. And I'm not saying I'm right. I'm. I'll express what I see, and I'm. I'm here to also engage with somebody else's viewpoints, but I just don't. You know, I'm not. Unfortunately, I don't. I say unfortunately because I wish I could relate more to caring about comments. But Marc, you have to understand, like, I've been a public figure for 22 years, dude. I just don't give a shit. I have been through anything and everything under the sun. It's kind of like I have been canceled so many times. I've been called everything I like. You just don't. And then you live another day and you realize like, oh well. And it just sort of loses all of its power. It's hard to explain, but you stop giving a shit about it. It takes time, though, to get there and a lot of canceling to get there. Eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare
- [42:39]
A
less with Epglis, a once monthly treatment
- [42:41]
B
for moderate to severe eczema.
- [42:44]
A
After an initial four month or longer dosing phase. About 4 in 10 people taking EBGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost
- [42:49]
B
clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin
- [42:52]
A
that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.
- [42:54]
C
MGLIS Lebricizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with mild moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to ebglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with ebglis. Before starting ebglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.
- [43:28]
A
Ask your doctor about Eglis and Visit
- [43:31]
B
or call 1-800-LILYRX are 1-800-545-5979.
- [43:36]
A
Protein is now at Starbucks and it's never tasted so good. You can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or Matcha. Try it today at Starbucks. My day kicks off with a refreshing
- [43:52]
C
Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym. Pre K pickup back home to meal prep. Time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits. I'm ready. Celsius Live Fit. Go grab a cold, refreshing Celsius at
- [44:08]
A
your local Retailer or locate now@celsius.com. i mean, I align with a lot of that.
- [44:15]
B
Obviously.
- [44:15]
A
I always say, like, if they're not talking about you, you're dead. But it's also, I think, something about that sort of people pleaser that a lot of fat people adopt, which is like, we have to be the funny one. We have to be the good one. We have to go to the burger restaurant, order the salad, because that's what, like, a good fatty does. I think there's also, like, a really big conversation that is probably to probably not have time for today. But, like, in just, like, where thinness is rooted, like, are we really caring about wellness or are we really holding up white supremacy? You know, it's like. Which is like, the thing.
- [44:49]
C
Oh, interesting, because I. No, no. So. So, yeah, yeah. What do you mean by that? Why. Why did we go to white supremacy?
- [44:57]
A
Well, like, just the thin ideals, right? Like, obviously, like, different cultures have different body types. And so it's like, where there's lifestyle and then genetics and then, you know, ethnicity, all of that plays in. It's like the ideal body type. Being thin is rooted in European and Western, you know, Western ideology and this idea that there is one right way to have a body. And, like, that's not true. You know, nobody looks at the Chihuahua and is like, why are you so small? And nobody looks at the Great Dane and says, why are you so big? But we look at humans and we're like, ooh, big. That's bad. You're bad.
- [45:36]
B
No, no, no, no, no, no.
- [45:38]
A
Hold on.
- [45:38]
B
Okay, first of all, yes, the aesthetic of health can be different on different people. Unquestionably. Right? Somebody can be healthy in a size 6 or 8, and somebody can be healthy in a size 0 or 2. Having said that, the key would absolutely be health, and that is quantifiable, whether. I know it's. We've had a little bit of a fight over that. I promise you it is. It is quantifiable with biomarkers that are, in fact, measurable, and that should be the focus with regard to somebody's physiology. Now, you know, I can't tell you about white European women. I always wanted to actually have thighs like that girl Sha'. Carri. Have you seen that girl? Talk about, by the way, a sidebar. Holy. That woman's body's insane. And she's not stick thin or a zero. The most amazing. The Olympian. My God. But anyway, the point is. Listen, I think the. The white supremacy is the same thing as the billboard is the same thing as the television ad is the same thing as the seat belt. I think it is all and it is real, okay? I think it is all a reflection of the feeling that you were not good enough, not as good as everybody else, not fit for prime time. And because that has been your psychological reality, you see the entire world through those lenses. It is not to tell you, okay, I'm not trying to take away
- [47:25]
A
the
- [47:25]
B
fact that there are similarities there. What I'm trying to tell you, and this is where I said one of the reasons I say body positivity can be disempowering is because when you're so busy focusing on white supremacy and the Victoria's Secret ad and the seatbelt, you're externalizing the shame. It's like they made me feel this way. They made me feel this way. They made me feel this way. Now, could they be engaging in behavior that shames people? Sure, but you're still allowing it. And it's because it's something that has taken root. What I'm trying to say is that over time you become the thing that you didn't get. And as an adult, you're capable of giving it. As a child you're not. But as an adult, you are able to care for yourself and love yourself and feed yourself in the ways that you were not able to as a child and dependent on the parent to do. Once you are in a place where you are enough on your own to flow feet, none of this external will matter.
- [48:36]
A
I mean, listen, I, I, I am embarking on a new journey. I have a new best friend named Jillian Michaels. I can't. I don't know what's gonna happen. John, you, you've done something wild here.
- [48:50]
C
But listen, I haven't done anything.
- [48:52]
A
By the way, putting us in the same room. Putting us in the same room. Look what you've done. I mean, listen, the cool thing about this whole experience to me is that Jillian and I can come together and talk about this. And if we had a hundred million hours, we could just keep going back and forth like this. Well, what about this and what about that and what about this? And at the end of the day, the message for everyone is getting back to yourself is the greatest gift you can give. And it still just comes back to like really. Maybe it is self love in the end, but self love is getting back to yourself. Self love is healing self love and self acceptance is figuring out why am I like this? And why are the things that have hurt me, caused me to continue to behave in this way. Right. Or I'm looking for blood from a rock. And I've done this 10 times in relationships and I need to, you know, learn and grow from it. And I mean, I think that all of this is super real. And I mean, you're not a therapist and yet I know that what you're saying isn't totally off. We got to get Dr. Drew in here. We got to get. No, we got, you know, I'm really good friends with his daughter Paulina. But, you know, this is something that we, you know, I think we'll hopefully continue to explore and that I'm going to continue to explore. I think there's, you know, a lot of invitation here to look at things a different way because I also think that the Jillian that people have seen on television before and then the Jillian people see now in this, like, political era is also like, this is a different side of Jillian. This is a softer side of you. This is a more like almost a mothering side of you that, you know, there's a lot of feelings out there about Jillian Michaels, but I can only speak to my experience of her. And that has been, you know, in these rooms that John has created. And, you know, I think a lot of people have experiences of me too. And the only thing that we know is what's real, and that's between us.
- [50:48]
C
Marcy, you kind of pointed out like a lot of people think things about Jillian Michaels. I mean, Jillian, you're more famous than both of us by a considerable margin. And I carry that same awareness into this conversation that she's bringing up. We both know that you're kind of more of a charged Persona. But it's interesting because I asked you a little bit about that and you're like, I don't think about it. And so it's almost like more of a thing for us than it is for you. And to some degree, a lot of what we are talking about is getting to a point where there's really a clarified relationship just with yourself on what you want for yourself and making sure that that is not routed through other parties, other political movements. That's kind of what I'm hearing from Jillian saying to you, Marcie.
- [51:37]
A
Well, and I would say that anyone out there that feels that Jillian Michaels gave him an eating disorder maybe should evaluate that too, and how much power they've given a show that's on television that was sensationalized and that, as Jillian has said, a 29 year old trainer who was plucked out of obscurity to become this Famous villain. I mean, that's also a whole narrative that if you want to say that, like, Jillian Michaels ruined your life and fucked you up, I'm sorry for you. That you let a show have that much power over you and a person you've never met. You know, I mean, I think there's a lot of people that feel that, you know, they've gotten a need to disorder or this or that. I mean, listen, I think that a lot of things on TV can give you an eating disorder. I think that absolutely 100%, as you just said, getting back to ourselves, which is hard because I think it's like this individualistic mentality. Is that what is also, just like, dividing us in general right now? Like, I think I'm also, to a degree, exhausted of community, if that makes sense. And I say that lightly because I already know that this conversation will be viewed as very problematic. And I'm still having it because to a degree, I'm exhausted of trying to perform for others and not myself. And so I think it's getting back to yourself and getting back to the why that we do things and why we move, why we eat, what we eat, why we do what we do.
- [52:59]
B
And any community that is going to judge you or disown you for deciding to explore certain elements of your health, be it physical or psychological, is not a healthy community. And the reality is that the cream always rises. What's that stupid Dr. Seuss quote that everybody says, like, the people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind. Let life filter out the toxic elements for you. It's a gift. Trust it me, and you'll see who your real friends are and who should be by your side in this next phase, whether they're fit or whether they're fat. As you, as you have asked me to, to label somebody such a.
- [53:47]
C
That was an interesting moment when you were like, wait, what? It's fat now?
- [53:52]
A
What? Nobody said, like, what?
- [53:56]
B
That. That totally threw me off. But in all fairness. But that's what I would say, like, like, perfect. Let the people that don't truly want what's best for you reveal themselves so that, you know, hey, I should probably limit my exposure and be protective of your time and lean more into those that support your happiness. And if for some reason you're like, this doesn't bring me happiness, well, then, okay, that's why, again, if you go back to your first conversations, I was like, I do not care. Like, I'm not here to talk about any of this. Stuff with you unless you want to, because I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. Except the only thing that matters to me is as a person who's becoming your friend is what makes you happy.
- [54:54]
A
You know, I think for me,
- [54:57]
B
being
- [54:57]
A
okay to be disliked, being okay to say the unpopular thing, being okay to say the thing that feels a little dangerous. It's like, it's. But this has pushed me. And you know, I think, yeah, it's really surprised me. This whole experience has surprised me. And I think having a bond with Jillian, it has also been surprising. But. But again, it's like as a person, as me, me, I've tried everything, right? I've tried everything except for Jillian's way. So for me, it's like I'm always going to be seeking that thing. And when I appeal to Jillian in that room, I came from that emotional element. I can't speak to the law, I can't speak to science. I'm not a therapist, but I can speak to the heart. And I really think that's where Jillian's message is. It's like the trauma, the wounds that cause us to behave in the ways that we behave or cause us to make the choices that we choose is ultimately like what she's trying to, it seems to me, get shut down to the bottom of. And I think that that is the angle that is where the connection was made. Because I'll be honest, I'm not someone that's super therapized. It hasn't been something really liked in my life or had good experiences in. So when you think about. Well, I've been on every diet and I've gone to every trainer and I've done the Billy Blanks and the Jillian Michaels workout, which, by the way, I thrifted recently. Two Jillian DVDs. Why didn't you just ask? No, I'm just kidding. They were literally at the thrift store. I think they were 50 cents. But I'm saying it's like if. If the kids key is getting to the heart, if the key is getting to this and all of the magic of your body and your body working better and your health is here. I mean, I. I have started loosely that work, but I'm definitely curious to explore like what Jillian's point of view is on that. Because if the fitness or the body that you could have is really just healing your trauma, then like, yeah, let's go. I'll get healed. Like being. Being healed. Being healed is hot. And you know, I think that's A new. That is the new thing. It's like, I don't need to be thin, but I'd like to be healed.
- [57:11]
C
I love seeing people like you two, you know, talk like this and connect like this in a way that deconstructs the way we present the videos. You know, it's all presented in a contentious way, but at the core, we want to see that kind of melt away, and so it's great to see that. And, you know, Marcy, we're. I'm interested in you in the sense of just like, you're a human and I want to know what you want for yourself. I get a sense that Jillian feels the same way about you. Like, we don't. There's no kind of conditional statement or condition for, like, why we wanted to talk to you or why. It was fun having you on the show. You just are fun. Thank you. And it was nice to hear your story and we did focus on you a lot, so thank you for doing that.
- [57:58]
A
Thank you.
- [58:00]
C
Yeah. And, Jillian, thanks for jumping in. You know, it was great to meet you and have you in the center. And on behalf of Jubilee, thank you guys for giving us even more of your time. For more follow up episodes of Surrounded, be sure to, like, subscribe. Leave us a positive review. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching the video version, subscribe to Tubely. If you want to see video episodes of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee's YouTube channel. Thanks for supporting us. Thanks for listening. Remember, you could be wrong, so could I. Keep your mind open until next time.