Is Jordan Peterson Actually a Christian? | Surrounded Follow Up

Summary

Surrounded Podcast: "Is Jordan Peterson Actually a Christian? | Surrounded Follow Up"

Release Date: June 1, 2025

Introduction

In this follow-up episode of Surrounded, hosted by John Regolato from Jubilee Media, the discussion delves deeper into the enigmatic persona of Jordan Peterson. Although Peterson himself couldn't join the conversation, three individuals who have previously debated him—Cade, Danny, and Zena—share their unique encounters and perspectives. This episode seeks to unravel whether Jordan Peterson truly identifies as a Christian by exploring these firsthand experiences.

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Cade’s Journey: From Priesthood to Atheism

Cade introduces his background and evolution in belief systems.

• Background and Early Faith ([02:00]):

  • Cade recounts growing up in the liberal suburbs of Minneapolis, recognizing his gay identity from a young age but struggling with comfort within his faith.
  • He was deeply immersed in Catholicism, attending mass multiple times daily and aspiring to become a cloistered monastic monk.

• Influence of Jordan Peterson ([02:59]):

  • Cade discovered Peterson’s work around 2015-2016, initially aligning with conservative viewpoints influenced by Peterson's debates, notably the Cathy Newman interview.
  • Reading Peterson’s Maps of Meaning was pivotal, leading Cade to deconstruct his religious beliefs and transition towards atheism.

• Debate Encounter with Peterson ([04:16]—[07:07]):

  • Cade initiated a debate with Peterson, challenging the assertion that atheists don’t understand what they reject.
  • Notable Exchange:
    • Cade ([05:07]): “I wasn't offended... I knew it'd be the perfect person to sit down and talk to him first because I was more religious than him.”
    • Peterson ([06:08]): “Well, you obviously feel that you missed something when you were practicing for the priesthood...”
  • Cade interprets Peterson’s vague response as a dismissive tactic, akin to a "no true Scotsman" fallacy, which left him questioning what might have been missing in his religious pursuit.

• Personal Reflection ([07:32]—[08:00]):

  • Cade describes his emotional detachment during debates, stemming from a secure sense of self after leaving religion.
  • He highlights replacing religious structures with communities like ultramarathons, finding peace and camaraderie without dogmas.

Danny’s Confrontation: Challenging Peterson’s Faith

Danny shares a more intense and personal debate experience with Peterson.

• Initial Interaction ([16:26]—[22:17]):

  • Danny confronts Peterson with a direct question: “You’re a Christian or you’re not. Which one is it?” prompting Peterson to respond ambiguously.
  • Notable Exchange:
    • Danny ([25:39]): “You’re really quite nothing. Right. You’re not a Christian.”
    • Peterson ([25:44]): “I’m done with him.”
  • This candid confrontation led to a memorable clip circulated online, sparking varied interpretations among audiences.

• Post-Debate Reflections ([22:58]—[32:00]):

  • Danny expresses exhaustion from the heated exchange but maintains respect for Peterson's accomplishments.
  • He discusses the intricacies of labeling the debate format and criticizes Peterson’s chosen prompts as irrelevant to atheism's validity.
  • Personal Impact:
    • Danny reveals his history of reconciling his Catholic upbringing with his atheism, emphasizing that his departure from faith was not marred by deep emotional trauma.
    • Quote ([32:00]): “I was born again as an atheist. I feel like a different person.”

• Emotional and Social Implications ([33:08]—[36:35]):

  • The debate had significant personal repercussions for Danny, though he portrays a positive outlook post-deconstruction.
  • He highlights the supportive relationship with his parents, despite their differing religious beliefs.
  • Quote ([35:50]): “Somehow, the first and second century of early Christianity... I feel like the early Christians just don’t match what Peterson is talking about.”

Zena’s Analytical Approach: Pushing Peterson’s Framework

Zena offers a methodical and inquisitive perspective in her debate with Peterson.

• Personal Background and Motivation ([48:39]—[49:56]):

  • Raised in a Christian household with Nigerian roots, Zena developed a penchant for questioning established ideologies, leading her to agnosticism.
  • She emphasizes the importance of intellectual honesty and continuous inquiry in her belief system.

• Debate Dynamics with Peterson ([38:10]—[45:24]):

  • Zena meticulously prepares by studying Peterson’s work, allowing her to engage deeply with his concepts.
  • Notable Exchange:
    • Zena ([38:26]): “How do you define worship?”
    • Peterson ([38:29]): “Prioritize, prioritize.”
    • Zena ([40:27]): “At the bottom is God and every... there can be multiple people with different conceptions of God...”
  • She challenges Peterson’s framework by questioning the validity and universality of his definitions, pushing him to acknowledge the limitations of his own understanding.

• Assessing Peterson’s Framework ([41:49]—[45:24]):

  • Zena confronts Peterson with doubts about the factual basis of Biblical events and how they influence belief systems.
  • Quote ([41:49]): “We cannot say that we know whether or not certain historical facts in the Bible happen...”
  • Her approach reveals potential gaps in Peterson’s philosophy, leading to Peterson acknowledging the challenges in his framework.

Host and Guests’ Reflections: Navigating Complex Debates

John Regolato and the guests discuss the broader implications of their interactions with Jordan Peterson.

• Emotional Reactions and Personal Growth ([07:32]—[36:35]):

  • The guests reflect on maintaining composure during intense debates, acknowledging the personal transformations ensuing from these interactions.
  • Cade and Danny discuss the balance between vigorous debate and emotional detachment, while Zena emphasizes the importance of structured inquiry.

• The Nature of Peterson’s Debates ([43:02]—[52:45]):

  • The conversations highlight Peterson’s debating style, which often involves pivoting questions and avoiding direct admissions, challenging the debaters to push beyond superficial arguments.
  • Quote ([43:37]): “That’s why I picked you. You ask intelligent questions.”

• Impact on Belief Systems and Community ([32:00]—[33:36]):

  • The guests discuss how their debates with Peterson have influenced their understanding of faith, community, and personal identity.
  • They underscore the value of community outside religious dogmas, finding solace in shared human experiences rather than structured belief systems.

Conclusion

John Regolato wraps up the episode by commending Cade, Danny, and Zena for their articulate and thoughtful participation. Emphasizing Jubilee Media’s commitment to fostering meaningful and empathetic conversations, he encourages listeners to subscribe and engage with the community. The episode underscores the complexity of personal belief systems and the profound impact that rigorous, respectful debate can have on individual understanding and societal discourse.

Notable Quotes:

• Cade on Deconstruction ([04:00]): “Everything about religion, good and bad, is a construction of the human condition.”
• Danny on Debate Clip ([25:39]): “You’re really quite nothing... You’re not a Christian.”
• Zena on Worship Definition ([38:28]): “So almost like having a preference over. So whatever you’re attending to, you’re worshiping.”
• Cade on Atheism ([35:50]): “Violin music... all of these are constructions... without God as the cause.”
• Danny on Personal Evolution ([33:36]): “I was born again as an atheist. Right. Like, I feel like a different person.”

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This episode of Surrounded offers a nuanced exploration of Jordan Peterson’s religious affiliations through the lenses of individuals who have engaged with him directly. By presenting diverse experiences and thoughtful reflections, the podcast fosters a deeper understanding of faith, atheism, and the intricate dynamics of intellectual debate.

Transcript

[Danny]

I was aggressive, absolutely, but I didn't realize. Oh, I'm coming across as unhinged.

[John Regolato]

From Jubilee Media, this is the Surrounded podcast. I'm John Regolato and we've got another follow up episode for you. Digging into last week's Jordan Peterson episode. Obviously we would have loved to have Jordan Peterson on the pod. He, he's very busy and declined the invitation. We would have him on at any point in the future. But we do have three of the people that he debated. Kade, Danny and Xena. And they each had three very different experiences.

[Danny]

Hey there travelers.

[Cade]

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[John Regolato]

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[Danny]

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[Zena]

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[Danny]

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[Zena]

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[Danny]

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[Zena]

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[Cade]

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[Zena]

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[Cade]

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[Danny]

Would you call yourself a Christian? And if not, why not? Well.

[Jordan Peterson]

I would say in the deepest sense, yes.

[John Regolato]

Hey Cade, nice to meet you. Could you just kind of introduce yourself?

[Cade]

My name is Cade. I do a lot of yapping on the Internet related to religion, queer identity, philosophy, and just about everything in between. My background is that I grew up in the liberal western suburbs of Minneapolis. Kind of an open and affirming environment. And I knew that I was gay from a young age, but was never comfortable with it. And so I went deep down the religious rabbit hole and was studying to become a Catholic priest. And so I was at church two to three times every single day. Was going to commit the rest of my life to being a cloistered monastic monk. Yeah, all the way into the religion. Read a ton of Peterson. And then two years ago I started realizing like, wait, the church is asking like a huge thing from me, which is to be celibate for the rest of my life. I should probably have good evidence to back that up.

[John Regolato]

It's so great to hear your backstory, because in this format, I only get a small slice of who you are. You mentioned you had read Peterson before, so you had a relationship with his writings and his ideas prior to even encountering him.

[Cade]

I originally heard of Peterson back in the 2015, 2016 era. I was very conservative at the time, and he kind of rose to prominence with the debating feminist type of interviews, the Cathy Newman interview.

[John Regolato]

Why should your right to freedom of speech trump a trans person's right not to be offended?

[Jordan Peterson]

Because in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive.

[Cade]

But then I rediscovered Peterson. Kind of on my way out of religion. I read his original book from the 90s, which is just called Maps of Meaning. And it's one of the books that actually helped me deconstruct and kind of turned me into an atheist. Because what he does in that book is. Is essentially explains all of the benefits of religion from a psychological and sociological and historic lens. And as I was reading the book, I was like, wait, all the benefits that I love about religion, everything that made the community great, and the beliefs and the peace and the ritual, all of that jazz that's human created, which means that it's now negotiable.

[John Regolato]

I think that's really interesting that he was part of your deconstruction, and then you found yourself face to face with him. And kind of oppositionally, in the video, you're the first person to go to the center. How amped were you to just, like, get in that seat right off the bat?

[Cade]

I mean, I could have talked to Peterson for a good, like, six hours would be my ideal situation. And so when it was the do I try to rush the chair and go up first? I decided I was like, I think I go for it. Good afternoon, Dr. Peterson.

[Jordan Peterson]

How are you doing?

[Cade]

So this claim here that atheists don't know what they're rejecting. My background is in studying to become a traditional Catholic priest. Daily mass, daily rosary, going on long retreats, deep into the magisterium and biblical hermeneutics. Like, I was thoroughly in it.

[John Regolato]

You did bring your story in right away, knowing a little bit more about your story, your trajectory. That first prompt does kind of directly point to you. It's like atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting. Were you offended by that?

[Cade]

I wasn't offended. I think with Jordan Peterson, I feel like I agree with 96% of his descriptive claims. Right. He talks about the sociology of religion. He talks about such broad topics, and he like, likes to hide his so what's deeper into his conversations. And so if the prompt was a lot of atheists haven't studied religion for a very long time, sure, maybe, like, that could work. But Jordan Peterson, in the context of what he does and what his platform stands for, the so what there is so we shouldn't take atheists seriously, or the so what could be so more people should be religious. Like, there is an implied so what? And so, like, the descriptive claim didn't bother me too terribly much, but I knew it'd be kind of the perfect person to sit down and talk to him first precisely because I was more religious than him. And it seems like I do know what I'm missing. Is there something that I missed over years of study, both this issue formally and living out religion so deeply?

[Jordan Peterson]

Well, you obviously feel that you missed something when you were practicing for the priesthood. Your aim was off then. So there's always the possibility that it's still off now.

[John Regolato]

What did that feel like, hearing that?

[Cade]

I never get emotional during debates. It's one of the things that throughout my work, it is impossible to offend me. And so when he said that, there wasn't, like, an emotional reaction, but I was like, oh, this is perfect. Because when he says, my aim is off, and then I asked him the clarifying question of, like, what was off? What was I missing? As somebody who is more religious than you, the answer is like, well, surely it was something. It would take long to figure out what was off about my aim in the first place.

[Jordan Peterson]

I don't know. It might take a long time to figure out.

[Cade]

But it seems kind of like this no true Scotsman type of fallacy in which you're the arbiter of people's aims and how they understand those aims to be. I was like, okay, so there's no answer. And I kind of got. And so I kind of got what I wanted out of that particular exchange.

[John Regolato]

You said that, you know, you try not to be emotional in debates. When I first saw your interaction with him, I could sense you trying to strike that balance. But I imagine it was hard not to feel some of that. The weight of that experience and the emotions you've. You've had from that experience informing and getting injected into that interaction.

[Cade]

When I first left religion, I had to take, like, a massive step away from these types of conversations because in the process of leaving, I lost a lot of my career. I lost most of my friends that I'd built up over the years, most of my connections, like it was a very sudden withdrawal, but I feel quite secure after having time to process all of that. Where none of these conversations, even the most heated exchanges on the Internet, just, they just don't affect me for some reason.

[John Regolato]

I'm curious to know a little bit more. You know, you mentioned you. You knew you were gay from a young age. Was that a private realization or is that something that you're open about with your peers at that time, but you're choosing to enter the priesthood knowing that you're going to be celibate? And so that's, that's like something you're. They're holding you accountable to and you're, you're being very open about.

[Cade]

Yeah. So I grew up in a household that wasn't particularly Catholic. Like, we went to church most weekends and on Christmas. And I went to Catholic schools growing up. And I had originally came out to just my parents in seventh grade, but then I just never knew what to do about it. Like, I knew that gay people existed and my parents were affirming, but I didn't know any gay people. I didn't see movies with happy gay couples. There's no representation. And so as a confused middle schooler about the world struggling socially, it was just like, there are so many big questions on life and careers and dating and like, what does being gay mean? That I was just like, I'm just not going to, I'm not going to tell anyone. And then into eighth and ninth grade, then I started attending my church's local youth group, and I was like, I was making friends for the first time. There was that amazing community, and I eventually was starting to lead a lot of these groups and I never directly lied, but I just never told anyone because though technically they take the approach of like, you can be attracted to men, you just can't act on it. The only time that it came up is when I was applying to join this cloistered monastic group in the Rocky Mountains where you're praying for 16 hours a day. You really never see the outside world after you join. And the intake documents are incredibly long. It's dozens and dozens of pages. And, and they essentially, like, learn everything about your life. And the very last form that I submitted, one of the questions was like, do you experience same sex attraction? And I checked the box and it's a bunch of like, do you do drugs? Do you like all these other crazy things? Oh, so did they reject you precisely because of that? Yeah, they just emailed back immediately saying, we're done. You don't have a vocation anywhere or anywhere else in the church.

[John Regolato]

Was it devastating to be rejected?

[Cade]

Yeah, because I had spent so long visiting various seminaries, I was talking to so many different spiritual directors. I was trying to figure out which degrees I needed to go to what places and then to like get to one of the last pieces of intake documents. And then not just, not just to be told that you don't have a vocation here, but that by virtue of being attracted to men, even if you're celibate, you don't have a vocation anywhere in the church. It was like my life crumbled in front of me because all of my hopes and dreams, everybody knew that I was discerning with a few different groups. It was like the vision that I had for my life was robbed.

[John Regolato]

Wow. So when Jordan said, you know, maybe your aim was off, that's got to be activated. Right.

[Jordan Peterson]

In your case it would have to be specified more. And I'm not claiming to understand what was going on in your mind, but my experience with atheists is twofold, is that they have a very reductive notion of what constitutes God, let's say, in the Judeo Christian tradition. And they've often been hurt by someone who was religious or by the religious enterprise or perhaps by God himself, so to speak. And that's left them with an animus.

[John Regolato]

Whether we know it or not, we bring ourselves to these interactions. And so it's just, I think it's pretty amazing that he could say something that might cut as deep as this experience for you, which is like a tremendous rejection. There wasn't like lightning or a split second flash of that pain and devastation.

[Cade]

When he said that for some reason, no. All I felt was like, I would love to see you try to figure out what happened. I was like, I would love to see him try.

[John Regolato]

I guess I'm curious, what's the next step for you to go from? Okay, not only am I now going to start peeling apart, you know, maybe like my Catholicism or my affinity for this group, but I'm actually going to go all the way down to God itself and become an atheist.

[Cade]

My leaving religion was very much like the scene in Indiana Jones where there's like the gold statue in the temple and then he's got the bag of sand and then he tries to like hot swap them so that the scale doesn't realize that the golden idol's been stolen. And so when I got into ultramarathon and a month after leaving religion, I did a 70 mile race without any prep 30 hours out in the cold in Colorado of just running for a day and a half straight was like, this is beautiful. This is peaceful. There's an amazing community around this. And so I got to replace like high demand religion with a bunch of mandatory beliefs and people that don't that only like particular versions of you. For a community of people where there's no dogmas attached, there's no. You have to believe this to be part of the group. You just got to show up and be yourself and you get to have an amazing community and these transcendent beautiful experiences. And I think what Peterson showed me in his book right as I was kind of like deconstructing my beliefs, is that everything about religion, good and bad, is a construction of the human condition. And everything that we love about it can be explained without God as the cause.

[John Regolato]

I actually just ran my first half marathon about a week ago, so. Man, ultra marathon, hats off to you. I wasn't exactly seeing God, but I was definitely feeling something. And there is something a little bit psychedelic about a long run. I found my mind and my thoughts gravitating towards people I had known who had died. And it was interesting. I was like, why. Why am I. Why is my mind going here?

[Cade]

When you're running, you can't scroll TikTok while running. It's hard in the mountains without cell service, even to be listening to music or listening to books and even for safety reasons. And so it's just you and your brain and you're stuck somewhere. And so it's like this, this hyper focus of the mind that you are sitting with your own thoughts for dozens of hours on end in excruciating pain, but yet. But yet trying to appreciate the beauty of the world and stay patient with your own journey. And then you get to see these amazing people along the way. And so I often joke that, like, the mountains are my new cathedral because there's no crazy abuse crises. There's no, like, you have to believe these things to be part of a group. It's just you and your mind and whatever sort of transcendent ideas are out there.

[John Regolato]

That's beautiful. I want to talk about one other interaction in the video. I spoke to Danny earlier. You remember Danny?

[Danny]

He was either you're a Christian or you're not. Which one is it?

[John Regolato]

What was it like seeing that confrontation between Danny and Peterson from the circle?

[Cade]

My general thought on that interaction is that for the first time, Peterson was confronted by somebody that did not have a vested interest in being in Peterson's good graces. And what I mean by that is that Peterson has talked to people that disagree with him. But what I often feel is that they, like, put on their intellectual kid gloves when they talk to Peterson, because if they offend Peterson too much or they interrupt him or they push him too hard, they will no longer be in Peterson's, like, good graces. And so I feel like Peterson often has the room to float his way out of every conceivable question by abstracting even the most basic phrases. And I think what Pete or what Danny did is put Peterson's feet to the fire by not allowing him to escape. Very direct and very obvious questions. I don't think Danny's question was some sort of crazy gotcha. I don't think that Danny was being disingenuous. I just think for the first time, Peterson was told to his face to, like, answer a basic question that, you know what people mean when they're asking the question. All right, here we go. New Phineas and Ferb is here. We're back, baby, for 104.

[Zena]

Four more days.

[John Regolato]

I know what we're gonna do.

[Danny]

Today of summer vacation. I am ready for summer shenanigans. Let's do it. Oh, yeah.

[John Regolato]

We're gonna bust Fiddies and Ferb once and for all.

[Zena]

Are we gonna do this again?

[Cade]

New inventions, shenanigans, innators, adventures and songs.

[Danny]

Brand new summer vacations.

[Cade]

New Phineas and Ferb.

[Danny]

Starts June 5th on Disney Channel and next day on Disney on disneyplus.disney.com.

[John Regolato]

Danny, it's nice to meet you.

[Danny]

Thanks for having me on.

[John Regolato]

I have to say, the interaction that you had with Jordan, that's probably the first. That's probably the first interaction I've seen on the show where I, like, audibly gasped.

[Danny]

That could be good or bad. Either you're a Christian or you're not. Which one is it?

[Jordan Peterson]

I could be either of them, but I don't have to tell you.

[John Regolato]

What does it feel like to see that clip going around the Internet?

[Danny]

I mean, I knew. I don't recall any clip where someone did that to Jordan Peterson. Like, I know I did something that I. That no one had ever done to him. And, you know, you might count that as a good thing depending on who you are. But, you know, some people call it elder abuse. Some people say that's really well deserved given, you know, Jordan Peterson. But I feel just fine. I just got a little exhausted because this was the. That was the second half of the shooting. I listened. The first half was some of the responses that he gave to my peers were hard to listen to. Changing the subject, being overly pedantic. I was. That was. I was like in a charging station. Like, my chair was like charging me up because of what I was listening to. Because, like I said, it was in the first half. So that's how I feel about the whole exchange overall. You don't have to tell me. I was under the impression I was invited to talk to a Christian. Am I not talking to a Christian?

[Jordan Peterson]

No, you were invited to.

[Danny]

I think everyone should look at the title of the YouTube channel. You're probably in the wrong YouTube video.

[John Regolato]

One key element of sort of the controversy is the labeling itself. Do you feel like the labeling was correct?

[Danny]

Yeah. So my impression is that y' all had a show where it was, what, one atheist versus 20 or 25 Christians. So it's very natural.

[John Regolato]

Alex O' Connor was in that one.

[Danny]

And so it's very natural to do, okay, let's do the reverse. One Christian versus 20 atheists. Right. So I think my belief is that that's what y' all had in mind. Now I actually think it's not very clear who should be that one Christian. It's actually a very hard decision. Jordan Peterson in one way made sense because he has been going around saying that Jesus rose from the dead and that he's God. What is the God you believe in?

[Jordan Peterson]

I think that the claim that Christ is the embodiment of the prophet and the laws, I think that's true.

[John Regolato]

Okay, yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

That's complicated. It's very, very complicated, but I think it's true.

[Zena]

So you believe that Jesus was God?

[Cade]

God, yeah.

[John Regolato]

If I went back in time with a Panasonic video camera and put that camera in front of the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, would the little LCD screen show a man walk out of that tomb?

[Jordan Peterson]

I would suspect yes.

[Danny]

Another way, you know, I kind of knew the truth. I felt like he wasn't. Who's non committal. Like he's just not very clear about what he says. When he says Jesus is God or I'm a certain kind of Christian, it's nebulous.

[John Regolato]

I talked to the director and she explained it similar to you. She's like, we did the Alex o' Connor one. He had had. Alex had had a debate with Jordan. We wanted to do the inverse. So it felt like a good fit. And he's obviously a huge name to do it with and specifically leans towards Christianity. But that ambiguity around his faith and how he identifies and his reluctance to Explicitly say, I'm Christian. It definitely created a sore spot in the format. And so it was just really interesting when you kind of pressed on it. What's going through your mind as you make your way to Jordan? You sit down and you are realizing you finally have an opportunity to debate Jordan Peterson.

[Danny]

Mm. Well, maybe as a side note, actually, I should ask you. He chose the prompts, correct? Right. He chose the prompts.

[John Regolato]

Those are his claims, and he. He runs them by our team just to make sure that they're, you know, we think they're going to stir interesting debate, but they're. They're his claims.

[Danny]

Right. Now, they might have stirred, but in my opinion, those prompts, as chosen by Jordan Peterson, are garbage. Right. You could. I could accept every single one of his claims and still be an atheist. So I was already annoyed that I have to engage with the prompt where I could just say, yeah, okay, by this definition of worship, I worship my wife. Now I want to talk about whether what you. What your problem is with atheism. So, you know, there. At first I was, okay, let me just pull out that if you play with words, you're going to burn yourself. Right. You're going to get things like Catholics worship Mary the Saints. They're priests. Right. But I was sitting there, I'm like, why am I talking to this person? Is he really a Christian? Like, I wanted to talk about that. Right. So if you add in, I thought the prompts were not really relevant to whether atheism is problematic. And then what I heard before with the other, with my peers, and then the fact that he was asking me, he would actually asking me. Why are you asking me these questions? I sort of blew up. I crashed out. Right. Like, you're interested in Catholicism, aren't you?

[Jordan Peterson]

Sure.

[Danny]

All right. Are you familiar with their doctrines?

[Jordan Peterson]

Somewhat.

[Danny]

Okay, you're. You're familiar. How do they regard. How do they regard Mary?

[Jordan Peterson]

Why are you asking me?

[Danny]

Because you're a Christian.

[Jordan Peterson]

You say that. I haven't claimed that.

[Danny]

Oh, what is this? Is this Christians versus Atheist?

[John Regolato]

Did you think you were going to have as big of a confrontation with him as you ended up having?

[Danny]

You know what? This is where Jordan Peterson would actually be useful. I don't really understand my psychology. Right. I really didn't know how I would react. It's like the mystery ingredient. You put it in, you don't know what it's going to do. I feel like I'm a mystery ingredient. I thought, you know, there was a point where I'm like, okay, this is going to be cordial. I'm going to, you know, we're going to relax. I'm just going to talk to him and then that's not what happened. I got like what I was saying earlier. I was like ready, I was ready to fight. Right. So really I did not know that it would end up that way. So maybe we should get Jordan Peterson on to like psychoanalyze me there. So I don't know.

[John Regolato]

Yeah, he's obviously hard to book. We were happy to have him for the shoot, but he wasn't available to do this. He's obviously welcome to do a follow up anytime he wants. I guess I was, I'm curious, you know, from your perspective, what do you think the difference was? Why do you think some of the exchanges got more activated and some of them went more cordially?

[Danny]

Yeah, I have a lot of criticisms of Jordan Peterson, but let me say this one good thing about him. Jordan Peterson, I got the sense that he didn't want to humiliate anyone. I believe him when he said that. He just wants to have a back and forth, a kind of sharing of ideas. To me he's like that kooky uncle that Thanksgiving who wants to talk to you about how we live in a simulation.

[Jordan Peterson]

Right.

[Danny]

That uncle is not malicious. So I genuinely think he's good natured in the conversation. You know, there might be some examples where there's like some counter examples. Well, like when he, when, when Parker asked him, do you believe in an all powerful good all knowing God? Right. He asked him, what do you mean by believe? So do you believe in the all knowing, all powerful, all good notion of God?

[Jordan Peterson]

What do you mean by believe?

[Cade]

You think it to be true.

[Jordan Peterson]

That's the circular definition. What do you mean when you say you believe?

[John Regolato]

How is that circular?

[Jordan Peterson]

Because you added no content to the answer by substituting the word true.

[Danny]

Some people will say that was disingenuous. It might be, it might not be. But here's what I think when he asked that question, I think he really meant to ask it like he really wanted to know. And so the nice thing about Jordan Peterson is that when you want to do the let's do the deep conversation, he's a really nice guy, it seems. But when he senses that you're not there to show and tell of ideas, that you're not just trying to have a back and forth, that you're having a debate now, he calls it gotcha moment smartassery.

[John Regolato]

But you know, he called you a smart ass character.

[Jordan Peterson]

I don't know.

[Danny]

You don't know where you are right now.

[Jordan Peterson]

Don't be a smart ass.

[Danny]

Well, and I mean, either you're a.

[Jordan Peterson]

Fan or you're not if you're a smart ass.

[Danny]

Right. I remember that clearly. But when he senses that someone's trying to win here, he shut. He starts shutting down. You start shutting down.

[John Regolato]

That's similar to my read. He's not. He wasn't interested in sparring or one upmanship. He wasn't trying to engage with people in a way where somebody could win. He actually ended up the. The debate with you.

[Jordan Peterson]

You're really quite something.

[Danny]

You aren't tie. But you're really quite nothing. Right. You're not a Christian.

[Jordan Peterson]

I'm done with him.

[John Regolato]

That. I think that was when I audibly gasped. I was like, oh, my God. What did you mean by that? You're really quite nothing. Is this just. Are you just activated or is. Did you mean something by that?

[Danny]

I did. If. And now if you listen to the clip now, when I. I don't actually remember saying it, but. But you know, my memory is hazy. We shot this a couple months ago, but after I said, you're really quite nothing, I follow that up with something else. You're not a Christian. So obviously, obviously, Jordan Peterson is in some regard accomplished. Right. He has a doctor degree. That's respectable. Okay. He's a speaker. He's eloquent. He's helped people. I'll say that. He's helped people, maybe even millions of people. I haven't looked into the empirical stuff, but. So I am not trying to take away from his accomplishments that most people recognize the importance of me following the you're nothing quote with you're not a Christian. Is that here you've brought nothing. And it was also a quick word to his kind of mini insult of you're really something, which is just another way of saying I'm annoying.

[John Regolato]

Did you stay in the circle or did you actually leave the production after that interaction?

[Danny]

They let me stay in the circle. But there's a. There's something that did happen that I haven't brought to light. And then.

[John Regolato]

Yeah, what was that?

[Danny]

So when I said that don't know her name, she said no insulting.

[Jordan Peterson]

Done with him.

[Cade]

All right, guys.

[Danny]

So please refrain from personal attacks.

[Zena]

We're here to have a discussion on.

[Danny]

Christianity and that is that we don't.

[Zena]

Want to go through. So we're not going to let you up again because of that.

[Danny]

I'm sorry. No problem. But please, guys, use that as a warning. I wasn't offended at all. In fact, I knew and I could be misreading her intention. So this is. I don't know. This is my guess. My guess is this, that she didn't want Jordan Peterson to storm out completely.

[John Regolato]

Right, Right.

[Danny]

She was. You know, she didn't want him to, like, okay, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, I cut the production. You know, abort, abort. I think it was a way of consoling him that, look, we'll. We'll try to create the conditions that you want.

[John Regolato]

After that happened, you know, were you worried how you came across?

[Danny]

I was warned. I was worried about if it was included, how it would be edited, because I think there is a version of that clip where I don't come. I come across as unhinged. By the way, I will say that when I looked at it, when I watched, I didn't realize how I was leaning in. I felt I was leaning very focused. I kind of look a little crazy, and I'm like, oh. But I. I didn't realize I was. That I was just really focused. You know, I mean, I didn't. I was aggressive, absolutely, but I didn't realize, oh, I'm coming across as unhinged.

[John Regolato]

I could see how anybody who watches it can take either side. I've seen a lot of takes where people are, like, totally backing up you. I've seen takes where people are totally backing up Peterson, and it's very much a Rorschach. It was almost like destiny, the interaction between you two. A question I have for you. So why is this topic so important to you? Why is it so important for you to, as an atheist, defend atheism and debate Christians? What's your personal connection to the subject matter?

[Danny]

I was a Christian for years. I took it very seriously. And I left it. I left it sort of. A lot of people's deconversions are way more painful, way more painful than mine. But I kind of left it, like, oh, no. Like, I don't. Like not kicking and screaming, but maybe just like. Like complaining. Like, oh, my gosh, I'm. I'm leaving. What was most important to me, like.

[John Regolato]

It was a big deal, I have to admit. I did a tiny bit of stalking of you before I. Before we chatted. Right now. I found you on X. This was from three years ago. This was a tweet you put out. So my parents now know that I am an atheist. One of the first questions my dad asked me was whether I cared about truth. Pray for me Is this you?

[Danny]

That is me, yeah.

[John Regolato]

What's going on in your life at that time?

[Danny]

So my parents were realizing that I left Christianity. They are very good parents. I love my parents. I talk to them almost every day, every week. They know I'm an atheist. They love me to death. Okay. This is when they found out. And my, look, they're very intelligent people, but they don't really engage with this kind of content. Right. You go to church. Right?

[John Regolato]

Right.

[Danny]

You follow Christ. That's basically it. Okay. So my dad, my mom are, are learning how to communicate with me and how to interact with the fact that I disagree with them on the most important issue in their mind. So my, a lot of Christians tie in Christianity or God with truth. Like God is truth. Right. So if you, if you leave God, you're leaving truth. You're going, you're, you just want to sin. Right. You, you know, that kind of like, it's not like the presupposition is that atheists are motivated things other than truth. And that's why I said, pray for me. Like I have to deal with, you know, them having to learn why I'm an atheist. Right. It's not that I hate truth, it's that I don't think Christianity is true for X, Y and Z reasons. Not because I, you know, I, I want to sleep around or get drunk. Right. It's because I think these are problems in Christianity.

[John Regolato]

Do you feel like you carry any sort of moral or emotional injury from leaving your faith?

[Danny]

Actually, I'm lucky. No. If I was a Christian up until my 50s, then I would have felt like I was wasting my life a little bit. But I got out in my 20s, I got lucky. I, I, I look back at my Christian experience positively. There are, there's value in community.

[John Regolato]

Yeah.

[Danny]

You know, and I mean, you don't need to be religious, have community, but it certainly helps to be united in something. Right. Whether that be, you know, in this case, with Christianity, it's God or Jesus or whatever. But I, Christian friends, I wanted to be a Sunday school teacher. I was excited. Right. In a way, I wonder how that life would have been.

[John Regolato]

Yeah, I guess I am, I am a little surprised, though, to hear, you know, it sounded like it was a big deal to you, so much so that you were considering a career. You know, you envisioned a, a future for yourself in that context. And so it must, you know, that must still be a pretty significant disruption to your sense of self.

[Danny]

Yes. I feel like almost like different person. In fact, you know, I feel like People that know the Bible would understand. Right. In John, it talks about being born again. Right?

[John Regolato]

Right.

[Danny]

Well, I was born again as an atheist. Right. Like, I feel like a different person. I mean, there's some things I identify with in my past, but it just, you know, my past self would be horrified. My present self, Yes.

[John Regolato]

I sensed some, that there could be some residual pain from your deconstruction in that escalated moment with Peterson. And when I was watching that exchange, I felt like you were both activated and when you've shared this sort of story with me of deconstruction. But I wonder if there is pain, a little bit of grieving seeped into that moment.

[Danny]

I don't want to say you're completely wrong. I don't say you're wrong. I mean, here's one thing that bothers me. I, for a couple few years in 2020, I felt great. It was 2017-2020 that was kind of painful. I struggled with Christian identity. I struggled with the arguments. I struggled with my quote, unquote, sin. And then when someone, you know, that takes the label of Christian and doesn't want to go through the struggle that I went through. Right. It's like insulting my experience. Right. Like, like, I guess a more extreme way of thinking about this is, look, the first and second century of early Christianity, there was a lot of Christians that died, were tortured for their beliefs. What were they? What did they die for? What were they tortured for? What beliefs were they did they suffer for? I don't think they believe the same stuff that Jordan Peterson believed. I feel like the early Christians just don't match what Peterson is talking about. They are the ones that died for these views. You know, going alluding back to his notion of belief.

[Jordan Peterson]

Right. If you believe something, you stake your life on it.

[Cade]

What do you mean by that?

[Jordan Peterson]

You live for it and you die for it. That's what I mean by that.

[Danny]

I think Jordan Peterson to kind of say, hey, yeah, I might, you know, Christianity is this. Christianity is that I'm a Christian in this way is to cheapen all of that suffering. And maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe that's unfair to him, but maybe that's what you're getting onto in terms of why I got heated in that exchange.

[John Regolato]

One quick question. Do you ever catch yourself praying out of habit?

[Danny]

The only thing I that's even close to that is when something good happens. I want to appreciate something that's beyond the people that I know. What, what is, what ends up being is after. I appreciate my, you Know my friends, Rich. I would not be here without my friends. I have. I surround myself by people that are smarter than me, and so I owe a lot to them. But after I appreciate them, I want to say, well, thank you. Luck. You know, one thing I miss about believing in God is that when something good happened, right, I'm like, thanks, God.

[Zena]

Are we still on the trail?

[Danny]

Is this pack getting heavier?

[John Regolato]

More switchbacks?

[Zena]

Why am I doing this? At REI Co Op, we believe there are places within ourselves. Just a little further. You got this. That we find only outside.

[John Regolato]

Wow, look at the stars.

[Danny]

This is incredible.

[Zena]

We have the gear, inspiration and advice to help you get there. REI co op visit rei.com.

[John Regolato]

It'S nice to meet you, Zena. Welcome to the Surrounded follow up.

[Zena]

Awesome. It's nice to be here.

[John Regolato]

I actually just spoke right before my call with you. I just spoke to Danny. The most heated exchange. But from your perspective, I'm curious.

[Zena]

Why.

[John Regolato]

Did you think that some of the debates, Jordan had got kind of escalated and to a point of feeling really personal and really, like, conflict heavy.

[Zena]

Right. I just think that there's something about Peterson's framework that just feels, to many people in the philosophical space and just even outside of it, just disingenuous. It feels like wordplay. I think that's kind of why, you know, a lot of people kind of came in a little bit hot. I respect that approach because sometimes I think it's necessary to engage with people in a very, like, offense, you know, when you're on the offense. Right. But I think definitely people just felt like it was wordplay and semantics, which I don't know that they're wrong.

[John Regolato]

So, yeah, there were some fireworks. But then you come to the center, and Jordan's claim that you first debated him, it was, everybody worships something even if they don't know it.

[Zena]

So I want to start off with defining terms.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Zena]

How do you define worship?

[Jordan Peterson]

Prioritize, prioritize.

[Zena]

So almost like having a preference over.

[Jordan Peterson]

Something, it's a hierarchy of preferences, and you use it to direct your attention. So whatever you're attending to, you're worshiping.

[John Regolato]

What do you think was different about your approach to talking to Jordan than some of the others?

[Zena]

Well, what's funny with me is I didn't really know who Jordan Peterson was until like, a week prior where I was speaking with. Yeah, I was speaking with someone and they were like, oh, this is probably Jordan Peterson. I was like, oh, wait, perfect. Now I can, like, study. So I kind of just, like, took this once. I kind of figured out who it might be. I did like a deep dive on this guy. Like I totally watched all his videos in relation to anything personalized like his beliefs, especially Alex o' Connor shout out to him because I think he really got something important too. And from that I was able, if you, I don't know if people noticed in the video, but I came in with questions that were he would immediately agree to because there were things that he had said prior. So I've kind of become a little bit familiar with your idea of like this value laden hierarchy. Yeah, right, right. And you kind of posit that at the bottom of this hierarchy, or you call it top or bottom of this hierarchy.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, right.

[Zena]

At the bottom of this hierarchy this, this foundational priority in your life is going to be considered God.

[Jordan Peterson]

That's right, yes.

[Zena]

So I think you could see that I knew where he was coming from because I had studied pretty much like half of what he had said and that's probably why it was enjoyable. And genuinely, I didn't really come. I guess some people came in with an argument that would lead him to not have a question. But I kind of came just to genuinely see if his framework had some type of like foundational basis. Could there be that someone has a priority at their foundation that is different from someone else's?

[Jordan Peterson]

Oh, definitely.

[Zena]

Right. So we can have different conceptions of God.

[Jordan Peterson]

That's why we fight.

[Zena]

Right. So essentially there is no, there's not one God, but there are multiple gods and these, these gods exist in some realm of truth. Like it's true that this person has one God and it exists.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah. Probably better to think about it as multiple values, but that there's a hierarchy of values with something at the bottom.

[Zena]

Right, but the bottom is God and there are.

[Jordan Peterson]

That's a definition.

[Zena]

Yeah, yeah. So at the bottom is God and every. There can be multiple people with different conceptions of God and they're each valid and being called God. So there are multiple gods that exist.

[Jordan Peterson]

It depends on what you mean by valid. So far so good. But it depends on what you mean by valid because I would say that some foundational conceptions don't play out when they're implemented. So if you put the wrong thing at the foundation, you end up in hell, for example. That's what happens in totalitarian states.

[Zena]

And I think at the end when he said I had pushed him to the end of his like, knowledge, I think I kind of got my answer that I was, I, I thought I would.

[John Regolato]

So yeah, this is a clip of Xena's conversation with Jordan at the end of the episode, after he invited her back to the center to continue their debate.

[Zena]

We cannot say that we know whether or not certain historical facts in the Bible happen. Like, even as just like, events. Like, because the events matter. Because again, God dying for our sins on the cross was an event. If we can't say that we know these things happen, these things did or didn't happen, this then leads us to kind of like the conundrum of how do we know what we are meant to believe, what the Bible intended for us to believe? And this can be very, very important to like, our fate.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yep. I've got no disagreement with any of that. What sort of response do you want from that? You pushed me beyond the limits of my knowledge.

[Zena]

Really.

[John Regolato]

So maybe in a sense, like, getting Jordan to a point where he didn't. He would comfortably admit. I don't know.

[Zena]

Yeah.

[John Regolato]

Was a way of exposing the limits of his framework. And you don't.

[Zena]

Yeah.

[John Regolato]

You didn't really need to say that yourself. You just kind of wanted to let that come to the surface.

[Zena]

Yeah, I think that's definitely it. Like, it's more so I just came in like, oh, this is a question I have. And I don't think he's going to be able. Like, I don't think this framework can even encompass this. So.

[John Regolato]

Yeah. And I think because you didn't bring an energy where it's like, I'm going to win. He didn't feel like there was any ground lost by saying, I don't know. Whereas with. With Danny, he's like, are you a Christian or are you not? It injected. There's so many more, so much more at stake in that direct question. And when you feel, you know. And I think that just put him on his heels and he didn't feel like he wanted to give Danny a win.

[Zena]

Yeah.

[John Regolato]

Even if it was a valid question, did you feel like Jordan was debating you in good faith?

[Zena]

It's hard because I think in regards to just like a rhetorical debate sense, some of his responses to my questions would be pivots. For example, like, he would be like, I would be like, how do you know your framework is true? Like, I said something like, how do you know that, like, you're supposed to. This interpretation is correct? Especially when you don't. You can't even tell us, like, the reality of the events in the Bible. These stories. Right. You don't know they're the true or false. How do you know that your interpretation is the Correct way.

[Jordan Peterson]

That's why I picked you. You ask intelligent questions.

[Zena]

Thank you.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, that was good. What do they say by their fruits? You'll know them. Right well. So one of the things I look at is the impact of what I'm doing, right? And so I know a lot of evangelical Christians, a lot of Catholics, a lot of orthodox Christians, a lot of people from other faiths, and they told me, like many of them, that they found my interpretations very helpful and that it deepened their faith. And so that's interesting because I wouldn't have necessarily expected that to be the case.

[Zena]

I'm just like, okay, yeah. So you're telling me that people, you're spreading an idea that people enjoy hearing. That doesn't really answer my question. Like, I don't think that's evidence as to say that this is like the way that the Bible should be, I guess, interpret it. So there'll be times like that where he'll just kind of like pivot or just go on a kind of like a history lesson or something like that. But do I think that he genuinely. I think at the foundation, he thinks that he's finding some transcendent, all encompassing truth. He's trying to like, synthesize. Synthesize. Every, every type of Christian comes to this truth that, like, it lies in some, like, eternal goodness and these stories have meaning. But at the end of the day, he kind of equivocates like the Bible to something like the story of Harry Potter, where it's like Harry Potter fights against, I don't know, Voldemort. And it's this trial of like, it's a meta truth about how you need to fight against evil and stuff like that. But, like, people believe something is real. Like, real as in like an ontological sense about the Bible that they don't believe about a fictional story, like, I don't know, Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings. So, yeah, I don't know. I would say it's like good faith in a debate sense. But I think that he genuinely believes some of the things that he's saying or he thinks that this framework is true to some degree.

[John Regolato]

Yeah, I think he's interested in maybe this larger. Exploring the larger framework. And I think I've heard Lex Friedman say this before. Sorry, I'm going on like a total bro podcaster terror. But, like, what if, like, we don't have the ideas? What if the ideas have us? And I do, actually. There have been a lot of moments where I'm frustrated with Jordan Peterson and the way he debates. He had kind of a notorious debate with Sam Harris years ago that I listened to where they got stuck on just like can truth exist? So I've experienced that frustration. But there is something really intriguing and I do think really valuable about this idea of like our stories that are we kind of like are humans sort of a medium that stories travel through? And are all of our stories, whether that be Harry Potter, whether that be Christianity, are there similarities kind of like, you know, uniting them, like a tree trunk that they all sort of branch out of. And he seems to be kind of like searching for that tree trunk of all of these stories. What's their commonality? Where's this sort of through line? And if we can find that through line, that core root that we all branch out of or all of these meaningful stories branch from, maybe there's a sense of unity or enlightenment or I guess just like capital T truth there.

[Zena]

Yes.

[John Regolato]

And I, I do like there's a poetry to that idea that's hard to, you know, it's, it's cool to think about 100%.

[Zena]

See, I think through all the jargon and all of like just the made up words like meta truth and like stuff like that. Genuinely, I think that's exactly what we're trying to get at. Like I think that's what, how we've gotten here. Which is why after watching all those videos I was like, I see what you're trying to say, but I think you're characterizing it really, really weird. Like I think this doesn't seem like it's like Christianity, but I feel like you're trying to like, or at least you're trying to take the framework of Christianity and say, hey, some of these ideas, we see them everywhere and even maybe in all other religions. I think I would even see if we really did think about it. Like he could take this understanding and apply it to so many different belief systems we've had, we've had all throughout time. So I just wonder maybe like is he branding this thing as Christianity? Because over the years he's kind of been associated with more so like somewhat conservative people and somewhat the right. Like maybe that's why he's trying to brand it in this way as Christianity. I think either way he should probably stop because Christians are getting irritated.

[John Regolato]

Why were you drawn to the topic of this video? I'm curious, you know what, what's the backstory for, for Xena the atheist?

[Zena]

Yeah, so I, I am from like a Christian household and I think I've just always Been someone to kind of just question things. And there sometimes have been things that just like, don't sit right with me about any ideology or any. Or in any framework. And I think when I was younger, I was just the type of person where when it felt too big of a question, I kind of just like push that aside. Right. Because harmony, like I said, it's one of the things that really I value. But as I've gotten older and knowledge has become something so integral to me and like, what I want, I kept digging. I kept digging and I kept digging and I just started to see so many plot holes that I couldn't reconcile that. And I think at this point now I would say I'm like kind of agnostic, as in that I think it is like a. I think someone who's atheist and saying that I, like, there's more reason to believe that there is no God than there is. I think that is valid. But I don't claim to know absolutely that there is no God. I think that agnosticism kind of encompasses what I think in that I'd say probably from what we know, a moral God may not exist, but, like, I can't claim to know that. And as we move along or as I acquire more information, maybe I'll refine that. But yeah.

[John Regolato]

Was there any friction in your life as you came, you know, you said you were raised Christian. Did that cause sparks with your family or loved ones when you deconstructed your faith?

[Zena]

Yeah, I think that it's something currently that when you come. I'm from a Nigerian household, so you might imagine how that is. But it's something where I think I want to be at most, at the very least, just like, open to explore. I think my parents and my family know the type of person I am, and they know that I'm always going to be a good person, no matter kind of like what position I take on this. And also they know that I'm always. I'm never going to be someone to just shut something down or something just because I have attached myself to another ideology. So we still have conversations and all that. And it was. It's. It's still a bit of like a. It's still a bit of something that's like a touchy subject. But, yeah, you know, we're moving along and, and yeah, that's what I think matters.

[John Regolato]

And have your parents seen the video and. And they said anything to you?

[Zena]

Well, first and foremost, like, the video came out, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I was like, how can I limit the destruction it's going to cause? But as soon as I. They saw it, they were like, I am so proud of you. Like, I just didn't. I couldn't believe that. That first and foremost, they were just super happy that I was so, like, I don't know, articulate or whatever. And it just felt really nice. I think my parents are, like, some of my biggest supporters in general. And it was this whole experience of just even being on the Internet, whatever, has just been so cool to showcase kind of like, kind of who I am, like, apart from being their daughter. And they've seen, like, more of me.

[John Regolato]

So, yeah, I would agree with. With what your parents said. I do think you should be very proud with how you presented yourself. And I thought it was a really good demonstration of good faith debate and active listening and de escalation. The show is presented in a way to be very confrontational, but that doesn't mean that it has to be that way. And I thought you really, you were really up to the task of confronting somebody who's very charged, has a very charged Persona, and approaching them still with, like, calmness, civility, and, I think, curiosity.

[Zena]

Definitely. Definitely. No. Yeah.

[John Regolato]

Once again, I'd like to thank Cade, Danny and Xena for being in the podcast. It means a lot for them to be in the video, as well as to take the time to reflect. Jubilee's goal is never to take a side or claim victory for one perspective. We're always trying to get to a deeper level of understanding, especially when it comes to the human interactions that occur on our shows. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can also check out Jubilee on YouTube. And if you want to send me a message or give me feedback from today's episode, you can find me on X or YouTube. John Regalato, thanks so much for listening. Remember, you could be wrong and so could I. Until next time.

[Zena]

J.