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Would you say that it should be against the law to discriminate against people based on their body size? Unquestionably. So why don't we see more fitness and wellness advocates asking for that? I'm happy to ask for it. I'll ask for it right now. I didn't know that you thought I wasn't for it. I wasn't allowed to have a Ding Dong when I came home and I said, I want Ding Dongs in my lunch. You know what my mom bought me? Low fat Ding Dongs. Maybe there's more to life than trying to lose weight. That's what body positivity has given me. You have to, like, love yourself. You have to invite love into the space. How? By looking at yourself in the mirror and telling yourself, I'm beautiful? That kind of work, kid. It does. That's an SNL skit. Are Americans fat, phobic and obsessed with unrealistic beauty standards? Or has the body positivity movement normalized unhealthy habits and lifestyles? I'm John Rigolato, and today we're going to have a debate about what it means to be healthy. Jillian, how are you feeling? I feel good. Debaters, you ready to come at Jillian with your best arguments? Not really. Yeah. All right, let's get into it. Hi, I'm Jillian Michaels. I'm a fitness expert and a health advocate. And today I am surrounded by 20 body positivity activists. Refreshing wild cherry cola meets smooth cream, the treat you deserve. Pepsi Wild cherry and cream. Treat yourself. Spring is here, and there's a whole new way to chai at Starbucks that's made perfect for you. Choose your sweetness. Dial it up or keep things light. Add a touch of pistachio, a hint of strawberry or vanilla, or make it a spring classic with lavender, because this season there's endless ways to chai at Starbucks. All right, my first surrounded claim is that obesity is not healthy and pretending it is pretty puts lives at risk. If you want to be the first debater, get to the chair in three, two, one. Hi. Hi. I'm Edie. Nice to meet you. I'm a dating disorder therapist. I'm going to do my best to not use the O word because I find it pretty offensive. So I'm going to use fat bodied as we talk. Okay. Do you understand why people find it harmful and triggering? Overweight and obese is literally just having too much body fat. It has nothing to do with the quality of the person. Yeah, I agree with you on that. Are we going to debate the Claim. Yeah, I just wanted to. Yeah, I wanted to clarify though. Are we going to pretend like I'm a three and you're my mommy telling me how to talk? Wow. Okay. Okay, so the claim that you're saying is that it is inherently unhealthy to live in a fat body. It's inherently unhealthy to have excess body fat. Yes. Okay, where are you getting that information from? Okay, there are dozens of MRT trials that show having excess body fat. Dozens Is causal, not correlated. Oh, no, that's not true. There is no disease that just fat bodied people get. I didn't say that. I didn't say that. But obesity lends itself to all cause mortality across the board. Have you heard of something called adiposopathy? Okay, so you know it means literally sick fat. And you understand how it works? Okay, tell me how it works. So it's additional layer of fat in the stomach area. No, that's not what it is. It works as follows. When we eat too much food that has energy that we're not utilizing, the body needs to put that energy somewhere. Right? So it puts it in fat cells. So it puts it in initially subcutaneous fat cells, a little bit of visceral fat, which is fat around the organs. And at first you have hyperplasia, which means we're recruiting new little fat cells, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Up to a point. Now the issue is that once you can no longer recruit more fat cells, right, you get hypertrophy, so the fat cells start to expand. And this is exceptionally dangerous because what ends up happening is the blood vessels get outpaced so the fat cells can't get oxygen and they start screaming, literally. And when they do, they release cytokines, inflammatory proteins. Right, I want to pause. Of course you do. I want to pause because it's irrefutable. You don't even know what I'm talking about, Jillian. Okay, first of all, I don't appreciate the way that you're speaking to me right now. You called me out for. Just trying to understand the languaging and saying I was talking to like a three year old who I felt like I was talking to you very respectfully. You're talking to me very disrespectfully right now. Here's the thing, and I want to. You're telling me you understand it, but you don't understand it. You fundamentally didn't describe it accurately. But what I understand is that what's lipotoxicity? I don't want to talk About? I am not okay here. I'm going to say this straight out. I am not a medical doctor, okay? So I'm not going to talk to you about medical diagnosis because that's outside my scope. And I'm fully willing. Hey, I'm fully willing to be wrong. What I am here to talk to you about is the fact that people in fat bodies are irregularly harmed going into the medical system every single day because of the term O word. So that's what you want to litigate? Yeah. Okay. That's not the claim, though. The idea that fat bodied people are inherently unhealthy is, I believe, incorrect. You're wrong. No, I'm not wrong. Robust amount of data. I'm not wrong. Okay, so let me look. You can't look at. Let me finish this. Let me finish my thought first, please. You can't look at a person's body and tell whether or not their what? Tell their health status. So fat is an endocrine organ. When it overgrows, it does wreak havoc in the body. I didn't finish telling you what happens. So when the oxygen can't get to those fat cells, they'll die and they'll rupture and then the immune system starts dumping macrophages in to try to clean it up. But do you know what's even more unhealthy is weight cycling. And as we talked about earlier, only except for your people who, if you want to talk about that claim, we can. The claim is. So then what are you supposed to do though? So let's say this person is in a fat body and they are inherently unhealthy. Right? We're telling they're unhealthy because they're in this fat body. What are they supposed to do? Will be more significantly more prone to all cause mortality. For me, intentional weight loss fails 95 to 98% of the time. So what is why though? You would probably know this better than me, because weight is not an individualistic pursuit. You narrow it down to this idea that it's causal like that they're just not trying hard enough. But that is. I didn't say that. It's multifactorial. Unquestionably. A lot of people lose weight. The problem. Right. Is that they put it back on. Are we in agreement? Yes. Okay, great. Why do you think. Okay, we gotta pause here. God damn it. All right, I'm sorry, John. I'm getting somewhere. Yeah, but you're voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Okay. Okay. Hello. Hi. I have lived in a fat body for, like, as long as I can remember. And I've known very many fat people. And I don't think any of us, the people that I know. I can only speak to the people that I know. I don't think any of us are pretending that we're okay with it. What I want to say here is I live with autoimmune disorders. I live with chronic illness. And I'm also neurodivergent. And this is. The body positivity movement has made it so that I can tolerate this life. I can find ways to thrive, even still. But I'm not pretending that this doesn't bother me. And by bother, I mean that it doesn't hurt to carry my weight. I'm willing to concede with you that carrying around extra weight is harder. It is, but it must be done. I don't know that I agree with you. Okay, tell me more, please. Well, tell me why you think it must be done. Because I've worked really hard to not have. Have this. What does that mean? Like, you beat yourself up in the gym or something? No, I don't. That's not fun. No, I'm not. I'm just trying to understand what you mean. What I mean is that I grew up with a number of undiagnosed conditions, and even I can think back to, like, middle school and couldn't keep up when the PE teacher would make us, like, run laps. And I'm like, this is physically aching me. And I didn't understand why. And I didn't understand why. Because I grew up with a single parent, undocumented single parent, we were bound to the medical system that we had access to. I understand. I've done what I needed to do a number of times to try to lose weight. What did you try? Tell me. I've done. Done. I've worked out at the gym. I've tried to do Pilates. Even yoga. Even yoga hurts me. Okay, so the exercise causes you pain, the exercise causes you pain condition. Okay, no problem. I'm with you. Dieting, for example. That doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think that food makes very much sense to me. In my neurodivergent brain, this is where mechanistic eating actually helps people who are neurodivergent. And the research supports that because it doesn't have to make sense to you. In other words, it's like you eat on these schedules and you eat these foods and you eat this much. Hence the concept. Right. Of mechanism I don't like that. I understand that you don't like it, but you'll have to decide what you don't like more. Carrying the weight or the mechanistic eating, because it actually could be helpful. There are other ways forward. But you told me you tried them. I tried a whole lot. There's a lot of other things to be concerned about. I'm also a social worker. I work with youth. There are a lot of. Let's go back to you. Uh huh. Yes. I'm saying for me, right, there are many things that I'm more concerned about than my weight. My body is not the most interesting thing about me. You just brought up your weight and said, I don't see a way out of this. I tried everything and I just take care of it in the ways that I can and I've found works for me. But you just told me it didn't work for you. But it works to an extent. You just told me it didn't work for you. It works to an extent. Then this is an irrelevant conversation. If you're happy with it. I stand on 10 toes, 10 toes down. That we are not pretending that there's healthy at any size. There are absolutely elements and aspects of the movement that do put that messaging into the universe. I've had those debates you've said. I've had numerous debates with people who are body positivity activists that try to tell me that they can be healthy at any size and it's just not the case. And I disagree with that. And I can use that. You use shame as a vehicle. I'm sorry, we have to pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Got it. Okay. What I'm curious about is if you care about people's health and you have people in front of you and I'm sure you have people online who are telling you that the body positivity movement, or I prefer body liberation, body justice, body acceptance, body blah, all the good shit that we like actually increases their health. Then I don't understand your debate. Like, what are you debating if the fat people are telling you it makes their life better? I'm debating their physical health and I'm debating the people who claim that you can be physically healthy at any size. Okay. Do you think you can be physically healthy and mentally unhealthy at the same time? Of course, but that's not the claim. Okay, sure. I think the part where I get stuck, I am a mental health professional. I work with people from a body Liberation standpoint. I work with people in all shapes of bodies. What I know to be true from my experience is that body positivity, body liberation, helps people take care of themselves. It's very difficult to understand why you think somebody is going to take better care of a body they hate. Like why body positivity would not inspire people to take better care of their body. I never said you should hate your body. In fact, you should. No, you shouldn't. Okay? So I don't think that. What I think is that there are people in the movement who have co opted healthy at any size. And it went from access to health care to quite literally meaning for them that you can be healthy at any size. And that's not true. Okay. I mean, the studies show that if you're very, very, very, very thin or your body is very, very, very, very big, it is more difficult to be healthy. That is absolutely true. But can you agree with me on this point? Because I don't think body positivity is the dangerous thing. I think hatred of fat bodies and people hating themselves and people living in self loathing because they've been taught that their body is the wrong shape, that's the danger. Both can be true at once. So let's look at this, right? So the first thing we would want to do obviously is incentivize somebody. So it's like, okay, what's the why that's going to allow you to tolerate the how? But hold on, hold on. That's the positive. That's the inspiration piece. Okay? Now here's the issue. If that piece, if all the things that they get out of it don't serve them as much as the things that are getting out of being overweight. And it does provide quite a lot. I can give you an example. Wait, then they're not going. Unconsciously, they will sabotage the change. Can I give you an example so you'll understand it? Okay. There was a kid that I worked with on biggest loosers. 18 years old, he shows up with his dad, Ken. They both lose like £100. They go home and they're visiting their family. It's the holidays, doors fly open and there's mom. And mom starts crying. And she's not crying tears of joy. She feels like they're gonna abandon her, like they broke the contract, like they've outgrown her. And she becomes sad and she withdraws. So what does the 18 year old do? He starts eating with mom again. What does the food provide him? A connection with his mom. I had something similar with my dad, it was one of the ways that we connected. Food provides a lot of people with a lot of different things. Yes. You cannot eat and not have your parasympathetic nervous system turned on at the same time. There's no such thing as not emotional eating. It's fine, it's good, it's great. Food is great. But what I'm trying to show you is that if in some cases the pain associated with continuing that defense mechanism is greater than the pain associated with change, it helps people change. In some cases, not in the long term. And I see you. Sorry, you've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. So earlier you were speaking about how there's randomized control trials that show. Margie Mendelian randomized control trials that have now shown us that obesity is causal to all cause mortality. Okay, So I disagree with that. I think there's gonna be a problem with dozens. But here's why I disagree. Because you can disagree because. No, but let me, please, please let me. Hear me out. Okay? So the reason why is because registered dietitian school for six years, studying nutrition, weights, all this stuff, and we can't keep what toxicity is. It doesn't come off my curriculum because it's bullshit. Because it's a TikTok thing that's like, you know, cortisol face or whatever. But please just listen to me. It is not ectopic fat. But can we just explain because you keep sidestepping and then we can never get anywhere. This is the claim. Okay, okay. The claim is that obesity is unhealthy. Lipotoxicity is not, but it is the definition of ectopic fat. It's funny, it never came up in six years of a professional accredited under what's fatty liver disease? I know a fatty liver. I was a clinical dietitian. That's lipotoxicity. Okay, okay. When fat is in the liver, when fat is in the heart, when fat gets deposited in the brain. Yeah, that is lipotoxicity. And it happens when the body has no place to put the excess energy anymore. It is irrefutable that that is bad for your health. Can we just go back to the correlation doesn't equal causation. So you're saying there's causal studies, right? Yes, MRT studies. The acronym is great. Okay, so I think is the reason why we cannot show that the fat in and of itself leads to the negative health outcomes is because we cannot keep a human in a lab and control every factor, but have the only Thing that's different, Mendelian randomized. But can you just listen? So a person that apparently eliminates any conflating factors because they're based on genetic predispositions coupled with lifestyle. Can I just share. A person in a larger body has experienced things that we can't undo from the fat. So for example, they might have negative health outcomes because every time they go to a doctor, instead of being given an evidence based treatment like I have unearthed thin privilege, I go to a doctor, I say, you know, my stomach hurts, I get a full workup. Are you trying to tell me that having fat in your liver. I just want to talk about having fat in your heart, having fat deposited in your brain is healthy? No, I just want to talk about. Okay, so no, you're not trying to say that it's healthy. No, I'm not trying to tell you. That is what I said. I was never talking about the health of it. I'm trying to say everything you're saying is hinging on this idea and it's a problem that we disagree on it. That it's the weight in and of itself that leads to the negative health outcomes. You're saying this MRT totally is. That is an endocrine organ. I know, but can you release. It destroys your hormone balance, it creates insulin sensitivity. What about the fact when the body has too much fat, it releases insane amounts of different. I just wonder, have you heard of social determinants of health? Tell me about it. Okay. Social determinants of health. A group of factors that impact someone's health outcomes that are things like your health care, access and quality, neighborhood and built environment. Things like your stress levels, socioeconomic status. So here's the thing. A person who's fat or lives in a larger body, we can't take away that that person has probably experienced higher stress levels their whole life from experiencing marginalization. Every corner from shows like Biggest Loser to the doctor's office, we can't take away that they haven't been given evidence based health options because when they go to a doctor, they're told to go lose weight. Fat gets deposited in the brain. But you're not answering what I'm saying. How does. I'm confused. Are you suggesting these are the reasons people become overweight? No, I'm suggesting that a person could be in a larger body and be perfectly healthy based on their labs, their cholesterol. 7% of people who are classified as overweight or obese, call it whatever you guys feel comfortable with. Only 7% are classified as Healthy. Say that was true. Say we knew for certain. I can go grab the data for you right now if you want. Say we knew for certain that it was unhealthy, that what you're saying is true. Here's the classic. But even then, we'd be in this place where, okay, so what do we do? Are we gonna send someone down a path of trying to lose weight and then gaining and trying and gaining? And we know that weight cycling in and of itself, bad for the heart, bad for insulin, bad for the brain, bad for all the things we work with that individual. That's what I do in my private practice. Well, that's wonderful. Yeah. And I don't encourage weight loss because it's unethical. I disagree with you and what's been asking before, what about it's unethical not to be transparent with people about the dangers? Yeah, transparency is the dangers of weight cycling. You can go down that path. That's a separate issue. You're presuming they're weight cycling. If you're doing your job, they shouldn't have to wait. Cycle, cycle, right. No, it's not about me. It's about the body. The body is so smart. But we're animals. Our bodies, when we lose weight, our body goes, oh, shit, she just starved me. I'm gonna do everything I can to try to get back to that place. Drive up thoughts about food. I think it's more slow down metabolism to conserve the energy you are getting. So are you suggesting that because it's hard and it's multifactorial, we should negate the dangers and not try to get healthier? Are you saying that it's more dangerous to weight cycle than it is to stay in a fat body? Still not the claim. And if you want to show me that, like, sure, show me the data. I'm not going to argue with that. It's not healthy to do that either. That's still not the claim. This isn't a hierarchy of what is unhealthy. We're out of time. We have to pause there. Yeah. Thank you for that exchange. My next surrounded claim is that the large food companies are one of the primary beneficiaries of the body positivity movement. All right, if you want to be the next debater, get to the chair in three. Three, two, one. Hi. Hi, how are you? I'm Chifon. Nice to meet you. Chiffon. So what are you classifying as large food companies? Okay. Pepsico, Coca Cola, General Mills. Okay. Now if they were Beneficiaries and benefactoring and making all this money off of the body positivity movement. Why is it that they spend billions on calorie counting apps on a lot of things that we see in society as forcing the losing weight or talking about losing weight, because that to me doesn't make sense and doesn't correlate. But also people that are benefiting from this are the people in the body positivity movement themselves. A little bit about myself. Wait, can I clarify one thing, please? I'm talking predominantly about finance. Okay, sorry. Perfect. Thank you. Even that I still will say. So I come from the wedding industry. So I created the first publication in the world for plus size brides. I've now gotten 13 wedding publications around the world. And my biggest thing is the wedding industry is very centric on this is what the wedding industry looks like. I have created a platform where body partners and not just larger bodied body positivity, but body positivity for all sizes. And I'm gonna come specifically from the wedding industry, which is very different. I know, but it still is a very weight centric. Okay, yes. So your argument is the wedding industry is the primary beneficiary. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's where my knowledge come from. But the body positivity movement is really for us. We are the main. And I'm saying we because I'm a large body person. I totally understand that's where it's really coming from. That's the way they're exploiting it. Oh, please. So there have been two really big one by the Washington Post and one by the examiner. So they're coming at this from numerous angles. So the first one is they've gone after a lot of the intuitive eating dietitians. Okay, so let me just. Can I give you some statistics? Please, please, please. Okay. So Washington Post analyzed more than 6,000 social media posts by 68 registered dietitians with a combined reach of over 9 million followers. 40% of them were using the anti diet language. Right. Like food freedom, no food rules, ditch the diet healthy in any size, so on and so forth. Very often not disclosing the fact that they were paid by the big food companies. Okay, okay. So they're basically going after the intuitive eating dietitians. I can give you Abby Sharp. That's okay though. But I want you to listen. Okay? Yes, because they are doing that. Yes. But the aspect that the body positive movement is really for us, that is not even anywhere we need to equate into it, it really is when they're using your movement. But that, but do you. And I'm gonna say this clearly and for right now, I don't care who uses my fucking movement. I want the movement to be there and that right there they can take it. It's marketing and sales, one on one. Of course they're gonna use the fucking movement. But then why can't you guys say you don't get to co opt our movement. That's not for me to do. I don't care about that. The thing is, is we don't think you should. But it's not about we should. We are doing what we're doing because this is our family, this is our world. It doesn't matter about living. Do you think I care? But the thing is we don't care. We are the movement. But there are a lot of people that are being hurt by this. And these guys essentially are engineering food to be addictive to quantity. And you know what? And I will say this, I will say this. Yeah, I will give you the claps on that. I will say, yes, that is true. But what I do want to say is that, that it happens all the time. A movement starts and someone comes in and takes it and someone comes in and comes in it and someone comes in and you don't deny it, you just don't care. I'm saying it's fine for them to do that. But the bigger issue that I want you to realize is that the body positivity movement is ultimately for us. If someone wants to come and get on our coattail, that's perfectly fine. But for us it doesn't need to go away. It doesn't need to go anywhere. I'm not asking for it to go away, but I'm suggesting. Now see, there's the suggestion. Okay, I like it. I like it. Ok. I'm suggesting that it could evolve, that you guys could call out when you're co opted, that you could centralize messaging so that it's not all over the place. Now that Joy, I am not opposed to. I'm not opposed to that. I'm not saying it. That's not a claim. No, but the thing is, is I want you to know who the true beneficiaries are. You're saying that they are the main beneficiaries. I'm speaking financially, I apologize. And that's okay. But you're saying the claim says that the large food companies are the main beneficiaries of the body Positive movement. That is not correct. I Understand, because we are the main people. We are the main beneficiaries of the body positivity movement. If someone wants to come and get on our coattails, by God, go ahead. Disagree with you on that. I think that's a mistake and that's okay. I think that you guys could tell them, you could expose what they're doing. Like, can I read you something else, please? Okay. I'm here to hear how diabolical this is. Okay. I have a friend that's on the inside. He sent me this. He goes, I just want to show you the ways in which this is being inside of. I can't say that. A big food company. You got it. Exactly. Okay, so here's the intentional message overlap. Right? So healthy at every size. Quote, you can be healthy in any size. Corporate benefit removes health concern Barrier to sales. Stay with me. Okay. Dieting doesn't work. Protects snack foods from being cut. Healthy at any size. Weight and health are unrelated. Corporate benefit deflects from products causing obesity. Healthy at any size. Weight stigma causes disease, not weight. Wait, wait, wait. Okay, I'm gonna. Okay. I'm just showing you. This is an internal. What I wanted to bring, what I would love. And I'm saying love cause I want it, but I love it more. If there is such a resistance to the body positive movement, and I'm speaking specifically kind of from your standpoint. Yes. Yeah. If there's such a resistance to the body positive movement, why are you saying, why are you letting them take money from you? Why is there resistance acknowledging or saying that it's actual, that it needs to be? I think that there are absolutely. I think that intuitive eating is a goal, not a treatment plan. I think that having access to health, which is what health any size was at every size was initially intended to do. I think all those things are important. I think unfortunately, the fact that the movement is decentralized. Okay. And it's prone to being co opted, it can do harm in the ways that I have shown you. That's what I'm saying. And that we could agree to agree. We got a pause there. That's good. We got a pause there. You've been voted out by the majority. Well, I really appreciate this. Thank you. Thank you. So I really want to focus on what you've just been saying about the co opting of the movement. Because what you seem to be critiquing is the people who've co opted the movement, not the people who actually built the movement, not the people who actually are the movement. So the Idea that is the movement, though. So the thing is, I don't want to name names, but there are many influencers who have said these things. So who's the movement? Influencers and activists are not necessarily the same thing. We were allegedly invited here as activists and advocates. Not always the same thing. Right. I don't disagree, but it's become, as I mentioned, a patchwork quilt of like, I'm an activist, I'm an influencer, I'm a dietitian. It's. Whereas, like, when you look at something like aa. Well, let me. So let me guide you to something very clear about the Health at Every Size movement. Health at Every Size is actually a registered trademark of the association for Size, Diversity and Health. I know. So when people are misusing that, we are a movement that doesn't have the same resources as the health and wellness industry or the health and wellness grifters or the major food industry. Right. We don't have those same resources to fight every time somebody misuses our terminology, our philosophies, our practices, our values. But there are some of us out there who are doing that. Right. I've never seen the caveats. I never ever see the fricking caveats. So. But maybe today you. Maybe you could help amplify some of the caveats. I am doing that right now. Okay, so let's go to the claim. I'm trying the claim that body positivity is primarily benefiting big food companies. I mean, financially. I got it. Because individual benefit. I can't. I can't. It's not quantifiable. I'm talking about the way these bastards are manipulating this message to do things that I think are very unethical. So if body positivity is feeding their profits, will we see their profits reduce as this pendulum swing away from body positivity continues to go back to the. You know, like I get asked all the time as the director of nafa, is body positivity over? Is body positivity over because of Ozempic? Is body positivity over because of Maha? You know, is body positivity over? Part of my argument is it depends on what you're in body positivity for. If you're in it for systemic change, it ain't over because the system ain't changed. Right, right. But I do concede the point that, like, we are moving away from some of what we saw as body positivity for the last 10, 15 years. And what do you mean by that time we move away from that? It's Less popular. It's less trendy. Trendy. We're moving more towards a thin centric ideal again, or, you know, leaving behind. We've labeled body positivity dei, and we're turning away from that. Whatever. As we move away from that, are we gonna see the profits of these food industries drop? Well, you are. Why would you need to make food genetically addictive if body positivity can just sell that food? If you could just tell people when you feel good in your body, you're going to eat all the Nabisco snacks that you want to, then why do we have to make them addictive? They don't even want you to stop eating one chip. This is how incremental they are about this. They literally engineer. Okay, just hear me out. They don't even want you to have to stop and take a drink of water when you're eating their chips. So they engineer how much fat is in your mouth in each bite. There are a team of multidisciplinary scientists that literally work around the clock 24 7, day after day, year after year. Their body positivity science. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So this is the thing. No, what you're describing is a misuse of science sense. Yeah, what you're describing is. You know what you're describing. No friction business. What you're describing is capitalism. What you're describing is greed. Yes. Body positivity is not the reason for that. No, I'm suggesting that. I think you guys should get pretty freaking vocal and pissed because these guys are actively manipulating your message so much. I haven't even gotten to half the shit that they do. So, for example, they have effectively lobbied to remove nutrition guidelines and warning labels on food packaging because of harmful shame. It's like trans fats are bad for your health. Okay. It's a fact. They have advocated for that. The body positivity movement, the fat activist movement, the fat. They're using language. Right? Like you said co opting. Yes. Right. So they should stop co opting our shit. But they're not going to. But yes, that's what I'm saying. So how do you feel you guys should get pissed off about it? Like, I get the things you're pissed at. We are pissed about a lot of things. I get it. Can you add this to the list? Add this. I'm saying they're the primary. You want to indict someone. It is on the list. It is on the list. For some people whose focus is body positivity. Right. We have different foci. I, you know, I do civil rights stuff. Some people do fashion stuff, wedding industry, health, you know, health and wellness eating disorders. We have. There are folks who are thinking about the food industry. There are folks who are nutritionists who are, you know, like, I can't without seeing the list of like the people that I, the. I remember the Washington Post article. Some of those people are not people that I would associate with us. I understand. But they're literally, many of them are certified in intuitive eating. Okay, but they're Abby Sharp. Okay, but that's not health at every size. Intuitive eating is not a healthy principle. Part of the. My problem with the movement is that it's like, oh, but it's not, it's not that part, but it, but it is that part. It's. You're saying our problem is that we conflate. That all the things get conflated. I'm not saying it's your problem. I'm saying my, I'm saying my issue is that because it's become a patchwork quilt, an amalgamation of movements and voice. Oh, it's an activist. It's a. It's a. It's a political. It's a. It's an influencer, it's a celebrity, it's a. It. There's no accountability for any of this. There's no through line and it allows exploitation. Why aren't ways that I think can be hurtful. Why isn't the entire public holding food companies accountable for food company evil? I think. Why is it? The, why is it. You don't think so? I mean, they're reevaluating the generally recognized as safe rule. They just changed the food pyramid. Which guides. Do you want to talk about that one? It guides hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies and now they're mandated. I'm saying that focused on the. They're definitely focused on it or part of it. Okay. I think there are a lot of people that are. You do understand how, how and why they have significantly more resources than actual body positive activists. Right. Saying that they don't have more resources. I'm saying, can you see this issue? What do we do about it? Well, do you think it's a problem? I think it's a problem. I mean, I think there are a lot of problems. I think one of the problems is the assumption that everything that has to do with, with food and its lack of health correlates with fatness. Because we are saying body positivity, obesity thing again. Well, we are saying body Positivity and body positivity includes all kinds of ways of being in a body. Right. Not just body size. It includes all of the things about disability and skin color and hair texture and all of the things. Right. Body positivity. But we really have been coding that in this conversation to talk about body size. Right. And you can understand. Okay. I actually didn't think body positivity, to be dead honest with you. I've never interpreted body positivity to be about skin color or gender ideology. But some of you, I really never did. I didn't start at body positivity and practice it today and talk about the values that. I don't think anybody sees it that way. That is not a part of the movement. I think the general presumption. The general presumption is that it must focus on weight and weight loss, because that's a bigger narrative in the culture than some of these. That is who we are seeing advocate. We're not seeing a person who's black being like, I'm body positive because I'm black. They're generally in a different civil rights movement. So I think that counts the black leadership in this movement. Right? I'm not saying that. I'm saying I very rarely see people of color simply based on prejudice regarding their skin color, using body positivity to make their point. I see them and, like, this is a movement. I see people. You see people who have multiple identities that include their skin color, their gender presentation, their disability, talking about body positivity related to their body size and those other issues. We had somebody else earlier talk about that. I. I just. I've never seen it in all the years. Like, I. I've seen activities. I mean, has anybody else here seen that? Hang on. Which you started. Which you started. Right? Or. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The organization that you work for. Yes. Had to do with a gentleman that started this organization because his wife label it however you would. I don't know what words you guys feel comfortable with. We've been using fat for 57 years. So fat's okay to use. Okay. Yes, but see, okay, you want me to call someone fat? You are. But listen, Jillian, you've positioned yourself to. You've positioned yourself as really, really knowing this movement and really knowing where we're showing up. And it is really, really common for activists and advocates to talk about using fat as. But you can't say overweight. We just say fat. Right? Okay, fine. So this was started by a gentleman whose wife was fat, who was discriminated against. Yes. That's where your part began. Intuitive eating is how an animal came into it through body puzzles. Because we're missing a lot of. That's how my organization started. The movement started Body size Black women and femmes in the civil rights movement with women. With people at Stonewall who were fat people with fat performance. What's the through line, though? What's the through line? What do you mean? Okay, so people at Stonewall, is it because they were gay or because they were gay and, as you guys say, fat? Right. It was because they were gay, but there were fat people there, and those fat people talked about their fat bodies. Gay people are part of the body positivity movement, a huge part of it. On the merits of just being gay. Guys, that's what I'm gay. And defending people's body sovereignty, people's body autonomy, people's right to live freely in their body. What is this? We have different angles of discrimination. The core he started with regard to being that. Am I right? That is what he started. Your organization. My organization? Yes. Okay. Healthy at every size. The beginning of is about access for people. Right. And health at every size. Principles. Talk about intersectionality and multi. Multiply marginalized people. That's not healthy. All right, we have to pause there. Sorry, we have to pause. Of the movement. I'm sorry, we got to pause. Guys, you've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. High interest debt can be a real vibe killer. 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Watch the Hulu original series, the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers terms apply. So one thing that I want to clarify. I said it on the sidelines, which I know I shouldn't do, but it's health at every size, not healthy at every size. And you've misspoken that just a couple of times. I think it's important just for the audience to know that because there is a really big distinction there. Yes, you're absolutely right. And I think it started as health at every size and I think now it has been co opted by many or misinterpreted. Misutilized. You don't think so? I've seen very many people say I can be healthy at any size. Well, I think every size. I mean, I think that I can be very many people. And I have debated with very many people who've utilized that point. Well, I do. I mean, I personally believe you can be healthy at any size. I don't. Okay, that's fine. I'm not going to debate that point because I don't think that that's what we're talking about right now. So I want to come back to when you were saying that, you know, Big food is profiting off of the body positivity movement and that's like a really terrible bad thing. Okay, I don't think it's good. Okay, so what is, what is your fear with that? Like, what's the cons? What. I want to understand your concern. I don't think we have enough time for me to tell you how date my concerns are. Let's do the tdrl. The tom didn't read. I think that they. Okay, let's go back. God. All right. If we go back to the 70s or like late 60s, 5% of American adults were obese or overweight. Right now it's 74%. Like, what happened? Did everybody just have a moral failing? Was it a quantum leap in genetics? They changed the BMI overnight? Medical. No, look at pictures. Look at pictures of. It's more than bmi, which I don't agree with. Childhood did not even. It wasn't even a thing. Type 2 diabetes used to be called adulthood onset diabetes. What happened over the last 50 years, and what I'm saying is I don't think it's a sudden moral failure. I don't think it's because 74% of American adults are lazy and weak and stupid and pathetic. I don't think so at all. No, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I think it's not, I think. But you do think it's an individual's responsibility when they do become in a fat body. I think that the system is largely rigged and 74% of American adults are having a real hard time fighting against it. For a host of reasons. Hold on. For a host of reasons. One of those big reasons, One of those huge reasons is big food. And when you look at. But if big food. Wait, can I want to pause you there because if I know that you're very big in the Maha movement and you're saying they're doing all of this amazing stuff, but then they cut snap benefits and so access to food is such a huge reason for people to be able to have a nutritious diet. So how can you explain that when you're saying that big food is awful, terrible, all of these things, but then still align yourself with the movement that cut billions of dollars to people to get access to food? Okay, hold on. I'm not saying this movement is perfect. I would not like to see people. What is called nutrition assistance. I don't think that's soda and chips and candy. Now, having changed the food pyramid, it's calories, it's not nutrition. I do think changing the food pyramid has now mandated that access to the foods on the food pyramid is going to make it more available and it's going to take the hundreds of billions of our tax dollars that these guys captured in a subsidy flow. The food pyramid is not about guidance for you. Me, you. The food pyramid is about grabbing $600 billion over the past two decades to grow ultra processed food from the shitty ass GMO crops that are covered in poison that then get grabbed by big food and loaded with more poison and then tinkered with so you quite literally cannot eat just one. I think these guys are the devil. I do. And I love your depth of my feeling about this. Unfortunately, like this is what I mean. I don't. If we, if we're going to indict someone, like when you look at intuition, it's awesome in theory. Feel your fullness. You can't. You cannot. I disagree with that though. We're out of time. Thank you. Hey. My next surrounded claim is that the body positivity movement oversimplifies disordered eating and trauma. All right, whoever wants to be the next debater, get to the chair in three, two, one. I'm not gonna assume, but I imagine you have some sort of maybe personal experience with eating disorders or disorder eating. Definitely as a kid would overeat. I wouldn't Say binge eating disorder, but I would compulsively overeat. I would eat to have a connection with my father. I would eat to feel a sense of comfort. I would eat to feel a sense of control, without question. And did you feel shame and then go to therapy to work on that or did you just oversimplify it and then kind of. I didn't oversimplify. I was 13, 14, and 15, so I didn't have the bandwidth to process what was actually going on. I was in therapy for other things that were going on in my household, and I definitely was helped. So I'm glad that you were able to go to therapy. That's not something that everyone is able to go to. It's a. It's a luxury and a privilege for a lot of people, especially United States. I have dealt with an eating disorder since I was 7. That's when it was first realized. It wasn't diagnosed at 7, but it was realized at that point. And my body fluctuated. I'm not gonna use numbers because I think there are a lot of people that have disordered eating that use numbers as a metric. And so they'll look at me and they'll. I'll say a metric and then it'll. It'll cause someone to be someone to have what I like to call a shift in where they are now to where they're going to be down like a rabbit hole of disordered eating behaviors. And I think that trauma and eating disorders go hand in hand, but they're not exclusive. There are people that don't necessarily have any trauma, but somehow have developed some sort of eating disorder. My eating disorder was something that I had from a really young age and then just worsened because of my physical perception around people. But it wasn't something that innately was trauma based. I am neurodivergent and it was never diagnosed until I was, you know, almost 30. So. But that's not because of trauma. That's just because of my neurodivergence. That's how my brain is connected. And so sometimes with neurodivergent people, they have eating rituals, eating routines that are rigid. And so that's where mine came from, so to speak. Say it's oversimplifying eds, like body positivity is oversimplifying eds oversimplifying trauma. You're taking away the people that use the body positivity moment to find someone who they can relate to, and so someone that they can connect with that doesn't have the same road, that maybe the masses had but has their same road. You've been voted out by the majority. He's returned to yourself. See. Hi. Hi. I'm Summer. How are you? Jillian. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Okay, so the body positivity movement actually got me out of my eating disorder. And if that's okay, I would like to tell you a little bit about it. Absolutely. So growing up, I wasn't ever fat. I just have, like. I have large breasts. I have got a condition, basically. I know you're laughing. I'm laughing because that would be my dream. That's the only reason I'm laughing. I was like, poor you, Summer. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Not to try to invalidate how you feel. That's okay. That's. Sorry. Go ahead. So I basically, I've got a condition called macromastia. It means that my breasts will just continuously keep growing. So I had to deal with this, like, my whole childhood. And I got, like, picked on and bullied and stuff because I was 8 years old with, like, double Ds. So that's absolutely okay. I went to the doctors and they actually told me that I had to lose weight in order to get a reduction. At this point, I was actually a Scottish size 6, which is a UK size 2. So, like, on the bottoms, just obviously not on my top. So this actually drove me into an eating disorder. And I started to starve myself and try and make myself thinner so that my breasts would get smaller. And that never, ever happened. Like, they just continuously. Because it's obviously a condition. So they just kept getting bigger as I was getting smaller and smaller. And it wasn't until, obviously, the online platform made the body positivity movement more aware to me. And then that really, really helped me. And it made me start eating more. It made me start posting more online about my body. And I just think that your claim's a little bit silly. Can I give you. Can I give you some examples of how. Of course. Please. So while intuitive eating is actually not intended for people with eating disorders, I cannot tell you how many people have misinterpreted that. And I've ended up dealing with it personally for quite some time now. So, for example, things like avoid diets where mechanistic eating is actually recommended for people with many different types of eating disorders. And even the women who started intuitive eating suggested that, like, hey, this is a goal, not a treatment plan. But when you've got, I mean, random people online who are, hey, you know, just listen to your feelings of fullness. You can't do that when you're anorexic. Your body no longer recognizes those satiety cues. It absolutely shuts it down when it's oh, what was it? Listen to your hunger. Like these are. You cannot do that if you have binge eating disorder and you're feeding a deeper hunger. It's the fundamental ways in which things like intuitive eating have been misrepresented by the masses. And of course I understand what it was intended for. But if you think that the vast majority of these people posting on TikTok have read the frickin guidelines of mechanistic eating, I think we're both dreaming. No, I get that, but I think the thing in my head is like, why do you care so much about someone else's body? In order to try and argue against body positivity, say someone's fat, obese, whatever, walking on the street, that doesn't actually affect you as a person totally. Right? So I don't understand why you would feel the need to fight for people that are arguing for, for that person to feel validated as a person. I'm not arguing for the person I don't know. However, there are people that do want help and I think that this can leave them feeling exceptionally confused. And there are many that I have tried to personally help that have experienced feeling misled, misguided by some of the, or almost, almost all of the intuitive eating principles and they're not being educated on. But you could also argue like the latter. But there are a lot of people that actually want help and I care that they, they get the most. But I don't think the body positivity movement is like just for obese people, just for people that are drastically need help. Anorexia is not obesity. So I was anorexic and the body positivity movement helped me. Do you not think that the body positive movement helps them rather than shaming them? Because that's how they get in that place in the first place with other people shaming them constantly. I am not suggesting anyone should be shamed. You're completing two different issues. I don't think that. I think in one it's all one issue. It's not though, sweetheart. You're telling me that you think, you think I think shame is awesome. I don't, no, I don't, I don't. I think that these tools or things like, oh, you know what, it's society, it's diet culture, it's this, it's that, it's bigotry. I'D like. No, dude, it's probably the fact that, like, somebody, God forbid, touched you when you were a kid. I don't think that's appropriate or even right in the slightest bit. No one touched me. No, not you, dude. I'm not talking about you. No, I completely get that. And I'm not talking about you mentioning, like, parents. I have two very loving parents. My parents never made me feel shamed about my body. It was like TV shows, like, the biggest losers in the UK we've got super sized versus super skinny. It was all of these TV shows that made me feel like this. It wasn't my parents. I'm gonna suggest that I don't think you would be vulnerable to TV shows. Why? If there wasn't a primary injury? Because who cares, buddy. Do you know how much stuff, like, goes after me personally or after people of color or after gay people or after, like, you have to remember, I'm quite young. So when these came out, I was very young, very impressionable. And I have, like, adults telling me that my body, because my BMI is higher, I have adults telling me that my body is like, you have to lose weight to fit in with normal people. Like, you're young when you're impressionable. And for you to be arguing against, like, body positivity, like, I hope you don't have a daughter because my little sister, like, needs the body positivity movement. I think people need the body positivity movement because without it, everyone's just going to be looking at other people, judging other people. Like, I'm sure you think the body positivity movement is stopping people from being assholes. No, that's not what I see. I think you're not right about that. No, that's not what I said. You think it stops people from judging other people? Yeah. Well, no shot that's gonna happen. He's just not gonna hide it. Their size or what. They're. Of course they are. They're not. Okay, okay, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. That's okay. Please return to your seat. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. So I think the, the language there is a little bit tone deaf. Just because I actually believe that gym talk, diet culture oversimplifies eating disorders. Two separate issues, though both can be true at the same time. Both can be true. As in. As in you could absolutely be making. First of all, gym talk should have nothing to do with eating disorder. So you're right. But it's a separate issue than the claim. I'm making. How is it separate? Well, okay, so you're saying gym talk oversimplifies trauma and eating disorders, right? Well, agree with not just gym talk, but just the way that our youth, all of us are. We are all exposed to that. Like, we can't just avoid it. And when you. It's a separate issue, though. I'm trying to say that the ways body positivity suggests people deal with body issues and trauma is an oversimplification. And it has to do with things like intuitive eating principles that get misrepresented by influencers. Okay, I can definitely agree with that. Well, then, unfortunately, you and I are so far on the same page. Well, no, I think. Well, the way I see it is that body positivity is actually the bridge between health experts and anybody else. Really explain it. Because I think that if I go to a doctor, it should be empowering for me to talk about my body. Of course. However, when I usually speak to a health expert, it's really not. I'm really more just afraid that they're going to speak to me in a way that degrades my body and makes me feel that shame that you've mentioned. Shame is not a motivator. It really turns people away. Whereas the body positivity movement teaches people to have the kind of confidence they need to make choices for themselves. When you look at yourself in the mirror and you tell yourself, I'm ugly, I'm fat, I'm gross, I don't deserve to be, you know, alive to, like, some people get to that extent. Right. I understand. When you do that to yourself, that is not going to motivate you to then go make the choices that I think we all know are healthy for us. Totally agree. Which doesn't. Then what's the next step, though? Dude, I think that's what we're here just looking in the mirror, I think that's actually. I'm healed. So that's not. That's not what body positivity. That's not what body positivity is. Body positivity is promoting the healing of said wounds. How? By finding. Telling you it's an oversimplification. It's not, though. Tell me how. Because how is it going to heal you? By telling. Looking in the mirror and saying and saying these shameful things to yourself. You already know that it degrades you and you're not going to want to do the things that most people comes after deciding not to beat yourself up. We're both on the same stage there now. Get below the tip of your iceberg. Different perspectives of the same page. Right? And I. That's why I do believe that body positivity is the bridge that we all need. Tell me what comes after the moment you decide you're not going to say that in the mirror anymore. Then what? Then I should be able to consult health experts that are also body positive towards my body. No one's saying not to. Okay, so tell us who the health experts are that are body positive. Because if I should be able to go to a doctor, or would you want. When you say body positivity, what kind of health expert are you looking for? I know a million doctors and all of them would love to help somebody, but what is help? Is help saying you need to get your. Your ass in the gym, you need to restrict your eating, whatever. You need to know what help is for you when you go to that. That's what I think everybody should have the opportunity and confidence to do. And that's what body positivity is teaching people. It's not teaching people that they're perfect in the mirror and that they don't deserve to have the courage to change. You still haven't given me a how. All you're telling me. I think we all are here to figure out how because nobody has the answer. That is not true. Many people have the answer, sweetheart. Psychoanalysts have the answer. Sorry, I don't like to be called sweetheart when we're, like, debating. Forgive me, but many people have the answer. Okay, so. But you believe you have the answer and you believe that somehow body positivity is not involved in bettering yourself. I just think that's contradictory. I really do. I don't see how. I think that there are absolutely experts that have the answer, and it's more than platitude. So what is the answer then to you? If it's not getting treatment with a person who's gone to school and specializes, that would be great if you feel welcomed and comfortable in that person's space. There are many experts in the world that would welcome. Especially ones that specialize in this category of medicine. But in this category of medicine, if there's not room for body positivity, then you're. I didn't say that's not. The claim is that there's not room. I said it oversimplifies. It oversimplified. Are you saying it oversimplifies people's trauma? No, I'm telling you it oversimplifies the complexity and the depth of these types of disorders. Whether it's anorexia, whether it's bulimia, whether it's binge eating disorder, whether somebody is eating and Summer was not referring to you. Somebody's eating because let's say they were molested and now they. Okay, but you saying you bringing up somebody's like, eating because they were molested. I mean, most people. That's not why, like, necessarily people are eating. That's what the claim is about. It is about the fact that people who have disordered eating and trauma. I think the body positivity movement with things like intuitive eating specifically oversimplify and can actually give bad advice. But the fundamentals of the. I'm gonna pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Thank you. Please return to your seat. Hi. Hi. I've been on a diet since I was like six. Okay. You've talked a lot about trauma, being molested, parents this and that. Yes, I've heard someone mention the bmi. I've heard people use the word obese. Okay, so what is your thought on this oversimplification? I think actually the medical industry and a lot of health professionals have oversimplified. I'm sorry if that's happened to you. I think you're seeing the wrong people. I know a lot of really good people, but that's also privilege. Of course you know a lot of good people. You're a rich white woman who's been on television and I would love to know you know somebody. A lot of them write books. Totally. I could read a book. I've read a lot of diet books. Jillian. Not a diet book or whatever. What kind of book? A self help book. Well, I mean, if you're struggling with an eating disorder and you're telling me I have no access to eating. Well, how do I know if I'm struggling with an eating disorder? Where does genetics play into all of this? Do you want to take on genetics? We can go ahead. Are you a scientist? Do you think you have to be a scientist to understand? No, but I haven't heard one comment about where do genetics begin? Well, that's the. Not the claim. If. If you want to get into genetics and obesity again, first of all, obesity is a very outdated term. It's based on the bmi, which is based on white men. Actually, in this. Come on, Jillian. You could be single handedly responsible for updating the bmi. Okay, but we also have waist to hip, and we have DEXA and we have mri. Yeah, but let's be honest. What are the MRI meaning? Like the Machine. Most fat people don't even even fit in. You have DEXA and you have never heard of that girl, what's a dexa? These are normal people. We are on TikTok. Hold on. There's also been a lot of like, blame. Sure, waist to hip ratio, but that's also like skeletal and like. No, no, waist to hip is not. It has to do with a ratio of your waist to your hips. And it's evidence, sorry to say, of excess visceral fat. That's what it's for. And that's an indicator of obesity. So obesity, that term, what does that mean to you? Obesity. It means that you have an unhealthy percentage of body fat. What is healthy? What is unhealthy? Like, what is the measure of health for human beings? For women? I think it's in the 35 plus percentile. 35 plus percentile of what? By what measure? The DEXA. 35% of your body weight being comprised of body fat. The thing that I think is most interesting is. And you didn't get to earlier. You didn't ask me earlier. Well, I haven't gotten. There is no. With someone else, you said. Because I'm seeing a very different person than from who we've seen on television. And I think there's been a lot of blame shifting to influencers and TikTok. And the reality is, girl, that's where we're all getting our info now. I've never seen a full episode of the Biggest Loser, okay, Because my parents told me to watch it and I said all the way off. Right, but. But you have no rage at your parents whatsoever, right? Oh, well, I'm not fat because of the age of my parents. That doesn't sound like a primary wound telling your parents to all the way off. I had evidence of what I'm saying. Totally primary wound plus genetics plus whatever choices I make in my life. Can ask you something. Pick the argument. Want to have. Do you want to. Or a debate. I want to hear who you are on the show. Who that person is and was. Okay. And who this person is now. Because same person. It's not at all. Can I say something? You just told me you never watched an episode of Big. Oh, but I've seen tick tock clips. I saw the documentary. I mean, have you. Have you ever seen a full episode, let's say with one of my contestants like Abby Rising. Tell me about Michelle. Whatever. Tell me who you were on this. Tell me where that Jillian Michaels. Because to be honest, we've all Chirp. Okay. I'm the exact same person that you see now. Now, of course, yes, you would see parts of what I was doing. You would never see the entire picture of what I was doing, and you would never understand why I was doing it. So let me address the part that you're thinking of. Okay. I had a contestant, 500 pounds. This contestant in particular had an exceptionally traumatic background. Can I tell you about it or you don't care? Okay, so her mother was a prostitute. A sex worker. We say now her mother was a sex worker. If that makes you feel safer. Sex worker's real work. Okay, that's a separate debate. And I'm not. Let's downpoint. Let's downpoint before we get into all the woke ideology. So having said that, the contestant named Shay, her mother used to sleep with men for heroin while she was locked in a closet. And she's gonna go home based on the percentages. I didn't make the game. Not a producer very publicly had issues with the name and the gamification. So I don't want her to go home. And certain things need to happen before I feel, and I have seen that there would be any hope of her being able to live past 40 years old. And she has all of the things, type 2 diabetes, the beginnings of chronic kidney disease, arterial plaque, all the things that are legitimately alarming. So I can't get her on this fricking ladder. It's day one. Can't get her on for 15 seconds. Tried everything. Cannot get her on this ladder for 15 seconds. And we're playing this out. And we're playing it out, not getting anywhere because the story is, I'm weak, I'm fat, I'm worthless, I'm this, I'm that. All the internalized shame. And at that moment, I pretty much tried everything, which you don't see is this has gone on for about four, four hours, and I can't get her on the frickin ladder. She comes in the room and I'm like, all right, that's it. I'm like, God damn it, get on this ladder. I swear to God, get on the ladder or you're gonna go home. Get on the ladder. Going crazy. And I'm utilizing her fear of me, quite honestly, to circumvent the story that she thinks is true. Long story short, she gets on the ladder, she climbs 15 seconds, show up the next day. She's like, I got back on the ladder for 15 minutes last night. I was like, that's awesome, dude. And she ended up losing £300. So you may not agree with it, but it worked for me and it worked for Shay. In that moment, you don't know why I'm doing it. You don't understand that it's a life or death intervention on a ticking clock. You don't understand all the other things I've tried. So I kind of don't care what she does. How much of her weight did she gain back? She gained. Well, good one, because 95% of diets don't work. Not my contestants. 35% of them kept the weight off, which is actually exceptional. And I can give you all the names if 5% are able to keep it off. There are obviously a host of myriad of reasons as to why that's the case. But if I had a 35% success rate, can you at least concede that maybe I'm doing a little bit better than the norm, than the baseline? I can agree that the number one celebrity trainer in the entire world has a success rate that I can concede to. They said keep it off, they kept it off. I got it. 30% of people that went on a public TV show. All right, we gotta pause there. We are out of time. My final surrounded claim is that the body positivity movement is fundamentally disempowering. If you want to be the next debater, please get to the chair. And then three, two, one. Hi, nice to meet you. Hi, Zane. What form or what do you mean it's disempowering? Well, I perceive it as follows. First, it's externalized shame as opposed to appreciating that this is something that does arise within. And if you'll hear me all the way out, I think I can illustrate that for many, it is actually a choice, which I know sounds shocking to you, but just stay with me. So it externalizes it first and then it invalidates it right off the top. Right. It's bad, it's evil, it's this, it's that Instead of like, what can we explore? What can we learn here? And then it replaces it with things that I think are platitudes and really difficult to believe. Oh, no, I'm perfect, I'm beautiful, this, that. But it's not so easy to just believe those. There's a lot of work that comes along with believing those things. So it can feel like gaslighting. And then the last thing is, like, anybody who tells you otherwise gets framed as a victimizer and concern can be shut down where I think it might be necessarily appropriate. So the way I would handle shame would be very different than the way I perceive the movement handling shame. And the same with acceptance. I think acceptance is key. But when I look at acceptance in terms of helping people, I like the serenity prayer best when it comes to Alcoholics Anonymous. Right. So it's, God, give me the strength to accept what I cannot change. Right. Give me the courage to change the stuff I can, and give me the wisdom to know the difference. I don't see 2 and 3 in the movement. Movement. But. But if you can illustrate it for me. Yeah, I like to kind of like, just share my personal story, please. I do want to share, and I think it's important that at my biggest, I was 335, which, you know, that that's my story. And body positivity has. Has given me the confidence to, in my opinion, appropriately lose weight because I've lost 80 pounds. That's amazing. I don't think you have to do that. That's, you know, a personal choice. I think it's all about body sovereignty, more about not just. Just losing weight. It's about what fits in your body. What are the best health choices for you, specifically? It's different for everyone. Everyone has different goals. If it's building muscle or losing fat or also just increasing their mobility. I mean, I go to Pilates and yoga, and it's great for those kind of things. It's super fun. But I think for me, that body positivity was the one thing that really helped me feel comfortable in my body. And what I can say is, and I see body positivity as, of course, you know, just welcoming who you are, accepting your body. And because I was able to do that, I was able to, you know, identify what I wanted to do with my body, and that was to lose weight. Again, not something that you have to do. And I did it in a way where I appreciated myself, I appreciated my body rather than this inspiration of hatred. I think there's some people that are inspired by the hatred of their body and that they'll lose weight even at a rapid pace, losing like 30, 40 pounds a month, which we know is not healthy. You know, sometimes, like, losing, like. Yes. Yeah, right. The average person. Yes, I agree. I think people agree that, or I've seen, like, you know, five to eight or ten pounds a month is kind of what you want to do in a healthy, like, rapid. A way to lose weight. And I think sometimes if you're doing too much, that's when realistic and it can become unsustainable. If that can happen, Absolutely. So that's kind of what I would say. And because Body Positive was such a gateway for me to accept my body, that's how I think it's so appropriate and just so amazing for people who. And like you said, they are doing the work, maybe not necessarily physically, but I think that there is a mental component they have to address. Because without that mental component or that mental work you're doing, again, maybe they're just exercising or losing weight or whatever it is, or changing their body, altering it out of shame rather than, you know. My concern is that when I've worked with people who are obese or overweight, they don't appreciate. They feel victimized. And by the way, they have been victimized at one point or another in their lives. But if I cannot show them that where they are now is ultimately their own choosing, then they're fundamentally disempowered to make a different choice. So hear me out on shame for a second. So the movement is like, diet culture does this to me. And pick your. I have a whole list of stuff that, you know, beauty standards does this to me. Media does this to me. All these different things do this to me. To me, that is a screen. It's a projection for when you actually first felt unloved, unsupported, not validated. Right. And it's so much easier to say, like, Victoria's Secret is me, instead of. My mother never came to any of my sporting events. My father was an alcoholic who never showed up for me. You know, all of these different primal wounds that occur when we're making about this shit on the outside. Who gives a fuck about Victoria's Secret, dude? So then on top of that, right, What I think most people don't appreciate is that we end up choosing shame, not consciously. Have you ever heard the quote, I'd rather be a sinner in a world with a God than a saint in a world without one? So in this analogy, the sinner is the child and God is the parent. Or. I pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to. So wonderful to be here. Okay. It was a pleasure and thank you for sharing your story. Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe. When I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. 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So you said something about being inherently disempowered because you don't believe you can make changes, right? Am I paraphrasing? No. I'm suggesting that there is no framework. There's no now that we've accepted where we are today, what can we take responsibility for and how can we take action? Sure. So are you familiar you brought up a quote of your own. Are you familiar with the quote? To those accustomed to privilege, equality can feel like oppression. Do you understand how weight is interactive and intersectional with all these other identities? When somebody is a fat person, it intersects with other aspects of the world that have marginalized them. Give me examples. Example of a person or no, no. Of how you're feeling in ways you feel marginalized. Who are you speaking for? Anyone? I don't think it's about a specific person. I think when you say that it is important to take responsibility for what you can change. You seem to have acknowledged that at the beginning, at that first stage of acceptance or of understanding that you are trying to acknowledge that you can't hate yourself into a version of yourself that you can love. No, not really. No, you can't. But what I do think. Hear me out. I do think that we. When you are feeling pain or shame, it is a signal to explore. I do see that and I appreciate that you're coming at this from a place that involves the mental health as well. It sounds like you would be pro therapy and pro understanding where these roots come from. Yes. But again, you can't change yourself. You can't go into changing yourself from the expectation that that will make you feel better about anything. And I don't think that our choices to make changes about ourself reflect more self love necessarily. They can, I think, if you choose to take. So I don't interrupt you. Please continue. If you are choosing to take care of yourself, that comes from something within you that feels good for your body. Okay. And so the body positivity movement to me is not inherently about. It's not about taking, you know, diet culture and just saying that is the root of all evil. It amplifies the ways that we have been harmed and feel shame inside. It is a harmful thing that actively causes pain. Talk to me about what you would like to see change. Diet culture eradicated. It's not going to though, buddy. And here's the thing. Hear me. It's just not. This is the world we live in. Right? There's. So you think that's acceptable? We also live in a world of racism and homophobia. I don't understand. But all the more to my point. Right, so. So think of it as follows. I would say there are probably millions of people that hate me. I get death threats all the time. Oh, well, it is. What. But wait, just hear me. So that is just what you said. There is acceptance. Let me finish. No, let me finish my thought. What I'm telling you is that I don't define my worth on the ways in which external. Absolutely no. Fully agree with you because I can't change that. I can. I can change how I respond to it. I can change how I feel about it. But you are trying to change the world because something. I think the world needs to be changed and it does. But we can't rely on that for your feeling of well being. You're right. But we shouldn't rely on validation that we are thin enough either. Who's relying on that? Plenty of people. Do you realize 74% of the country is overweight or obese? All right, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. I'm curious about what your definition of body positivity is because you're talking about shame and you're talking about personal feelings and emotion. And I have a little bit different of a definition of body positivity, some of yours. So when I think about the body positivity movement, I actually think about its roots in the fat rights movement, which is where I work. 60s. Yeah, in the 60s I run NAFA, which is a fat organization that was founded in the 60s and, and when I think about the folks who have been using that terminology since the 70s, 80s, 90s, not just the people who kind of popped up using it on Instagram and Tumblr in the 2000s, but that it goes, has this long, long history. That long, long history is actually about body justice. It's not just about individual feelings. It's not just about, about, you know, my mother in law said something to me at dinner or my, you know, this guy didn't want to date me because I was fat. It's actually also about things like do I have access to health care, weight neutral healthcare that actually treats my symptoms, not just my body? Right. Do I have access to equal pay? Do I have accommodations for the body that I'm in right now, not the body that I might be in someday? And so I think about these systemic disenfranchisements and discriminations that happen to people, especially people in larger bodies. And when I want to embrace body positivity, it's more than just that personal self esteem piece. But what you seem to be talking about is the personal self esteem. Not true. That's not just what I'm talking about and I'm not going to disagree with you on any of what you just said. I'm well aware of where this started and it was, I think a gentleman that was, was pretty upset about how his wife was being treated. Right. And he started it. How'd you know that origin story? I do know a lot about it in my opinion. There's no question it has been co opted. And when the vast majority of your TikTok influencers don't know the origin of your story and those messages are communicated in 15 second memes, then you own meme consequences. And that's where I take umbrage with it. And it's become this amalgamation of rolling up different movements along the decades. So we can't be like, well I'm going to carve out the part that's the, you know, the Bright's piece and don't look over here, I look at it in its entirety and there are parts of it that I take umbrage with. That's how I feel about the health and wellness industry. Right. That's fair in its entirety. There are parts that I take umbrage with and we know when you introduced yourself you talked about being a health advocate. Does your advocacy include making sure that people are not discriminated against? Without question. So how do you do that for people in larger bodies? Well, personally I don't get involved in that kind of policy outside of what I do in relationship to big agriculture, big food, big pharma, big insurance. That's my primary focus when it comes to policy. To be dead honest, I think you probably do a better job in this area than I do. But I would never, ever disagree with you here. I would cooperate with you in any way you asked me to. So would you say that it should be against the law to discriminate against people based on their body size? Unquestionably. So why don't we see more fitness and wellness advocates asking for that? I'm happy to ask for it. I'll ask for it right now. I didn't know that you thought I wasn't for it. Of course I feel that way. Well, I feel I didn't know your personal view on the laws specifically or public policy specifically in this particular civil rights way, but certainly would you agree with me that your industry is not like we don't see a bunch of fitness professionals coming out and being like, hey, we should actually talk more about the way that people are discriminated against instead of, hey, we should actually talk about how those people should lose weight if they don't want to be discriminated against. Absolutely. Fair point. Thank you. Will you contact your republic representative in Santa? You're looking at her. I'm running her. Y' all heard it right here. Jillian Michaels said, I will. I will contact my representatives. Girl, I'm right here. I'll give you my cell phone. All right, Tigress has won. Her section of Tigress has won four. Tigress won. Hi, my name is Rachel. Nice to meet you, Rachel. A little bit of background on me first. I'm a personal trainer. I would consider myself an advocate for the body positivity movement. Not particularly an activist, but somebody who supports all bodies being in the fitness industry. But then we're talking about shame. So I'm trying to show you why somebody would choose to internalize a lack of worth which results in toxicity, toxic shame. So real quick, healthy shame is if I acted like a douche to one of you and I went home tonight and I was like, oh, God. I was feeling insecure. I was feeling overwhelmed. I acted like an. I regret that. How can I change that? Next time, that's going to be something very different. Just wait. Just hold on. Okay. Than something toxic shame. You're bad. Not the thing you did. Could improve not being analytical and exploring your behavior and agreeing to change it. So toxic shame is the internalization of not being Good enough. Right. So what I'm trying to illustrate is that many of the people who end up in that position, feeling that way, have chosen that feeling because it is safer than accepting you were primally abandoned as a kid. So the idea is that if you can be better, then you'll get what you need. If I'm externalizing shame on shit like diet culture, this origin wound never gets healed. And if I don't accept that it wasn't them who did this to me, if I can say, wow, I let this defense structure build inside of me to protect myself at a time when it meant my psychological survival. But now this is no longer serving me, I think that's a better way to work it through. Okay, how did we go from the word body positivity to shame? This is an umbrella that we're looking at. We're talking about diet culture, which is, like, such, like, a micro point in the movement. Like, we're not just talking about big bodies. We're talking about all bodies. So all bodies don't feel shame, but shame, I mean, it is a core tenet. Talking about positive, have you ever felt shame? Of course. Shame is not size exclusive. I didn't say it was, but then why is a movement that was created to make people feel better about the body? How does it do that? Tell me. You don't think it has a protocol for addressing shame? It's pretty explicit. No, but have you ever been in a bigger body? Yeah, I was 175 pounds at 135ft tall. Okay. I also was overweight previously. Like, when everybody is telling you that you are not good the way that you are, like, you have to, like, love yourself. You have to invite love into the space. How? By looking at yourself in the mirror and telling yourself, I'm beautiful. It's not gonna work, kid. It does. It's an SNL skit. It's not. Yes, it is. How? It's positive affirmations. Like, we're like, no, no, no. This is, like, real. Like, how is this positive affirmations? It's like dealing with a bullet wound with a band aid. Okay, but you have to speak to yourself with love. Exercise can be a very shameful thing for people in a bigger body where they already don't feel insane inviting into two different issues. No, but it's that I brought up body positivity, and you brought up shame. Shame is how shame is dealt with, is an integral part of the body positivity movement. You're saying it's not how shame is dealt with how people manage their shame. It's externalized and then it's invalidated. And that same form of self, that same form of what you call shame, I call self love. And that same feeling I'm calling shame. You're calling the feeling of feeling uncomfortable in the size of your body shame. No, I'm not. I'm saying that the movement suggests you address shame by externalizing it. Diet culture made me feel this way. Metabolism made me feel this way. Okay, I'm not diet culture. Bye bye. Body positivity. I'm a woman with a baby. I am six months old, postpartum. Okay? I. Body positivity is for me, too. I have loose skin on my stomach. I don't look the same as I did before I had a child. I gained 70 pounds and had to work to lose it because that was my choice and I wanted to move my body to feel better. So body positivity is not diet culture. There's like, more bodies that fit into this umbrella that you're talking about than just like, oh, big people. Oh, I'm not saying that there aren't. Then what is this diet? Like, why diet culture? Like, why is that the first thing that rings your bell? Like, when you think of. It's not the first thing that rings my bell, but what I'm suggesting is that very often. What's the first thing you think of? What's the first thought of? Gosh, there's many different pieces to this patchwork quill. First thing you think of. When you think of honestly. Is it the word fat? I think no. Then what is it? I think of people who have been really hurt rejecting the things that they have felt rejected by. So we're out of time. Please return to your seat. Okay, Jillian, great job. Great job, everybody. So far, we have 10 minutes for one final debater. So look around the room and select somebody who you would like to spend that last 10 minutes with. Somebody maybe who you think you haven't finished the conversation with or you think they. They challenged you in a way that you want to keep moving. I want to talk about the genetics piece. Okay. We'll talk about a lot of things. My surrounded claim is that shame is far more dangerous than body positivity. I don't disagree with you. I disagree with how it handles shame. Let's talk about the show. Okay. Tell me more about your, I guess, tactics or who. Who Jillian Michaels is to the world. I can't describe who Jillian Michaels is to the world. I'm something to everybody. To some People, I'm a hero that saved their life, which I never listen. 39% of people. Hold on. I disown that completely. It's not my accomplishment. It's a projection. Right. Of. I know you guys don't like this talk, but it is a projection of the good mommy. I'm not that. I'm also the bad mommy. I'm the evil person that made them overweight, and I did this to them. I'm all these things to all these people. Who's Jillian Michaels? I mean, I'm five foot two. I spend a lot of money on laser hair removal. I got two kids. I. I mean, how do you raise your kids? You use fear and shame to raise them. Does it seem like I use fear and shame to raise them? Yeah, because you talk about using fear and shame. I don't talk about. First of all, that is a life or death intervention on a ticking clock. Because do you look at me and not see a life or death need for an intervention right now? Be honest. Yeah, you might. I do. We don't have a ticking clock. Which means that if you chose to reach out to me, we're all on ticking clock. Not in the way that you go home in a week, dude. In the way that I get six days to try to figure out, to try to help you. Okay, that's. Oh, you're back to the show now. The ticking class. I thought we were talking about. Asking me about fear. And I'm telling you that parenting and Biggest Loser, there's no parallel. Okay, so shame. Okay. Shaming someone. So, like, I didn't say it's okay to shame someone. I'm telling you that the utilization of these emotions. I'm telling you that shame is a signal. It's telling you, hey, look over here. This, this here. But shame from the world, like any shame I've felt from. Okay, okay, we'll start here. You're externalizing shame, which is exactly what I don't agree with. And you're saying that I've externalized it by carrying it on my body as well. No, I'm saying that's a little bit of what you said earlier about the trauma is externalized. Well, that would be utilizing your body as a container to manage emotions. If we're talking about. In this particular instance, I can give you an example of that, but. Or not. So I'm not talking about shaming someone. Fundamentally disagree with that concept. I'm talking about the shame that is already there, not externalizing it. I'm talking about appreciating. The fact like, okay, this is arising from within me. Where is this coming from and why? If we. Instead of going, oh, I think I'm ashamed because of what they did or what they told me or what they. Now listen. People are absolutely, at one point or another, very often victims. However, how we choose to respond to that injury, okay, at one time absolutely meant your psychological survival. It is how you survived that injury. The problem is it perpetuates and it no longer serves. But if we continue to repeat the pattern, it's actually called. Has a name. It's called a repetition compulsion. And the goal, right, is I will master this. I will play this out. It's safer to play it out externally than where those feelings really belong, because that's painful. It's also safer because you don't have to suffer the primal loss of whatever was missing. So now can I give you an example? I'm a shitty parent. We talked about this. But just follow me, right? I'm a shitty parent. I'm not there for you, okay? Instead of you saying, oh, my God, my mom was never available, I didn't get what I needed. And there's a, you know, there's peoples that feel that way, okay? We then internalize it and go. It must be because I'm not good enough. Hence the sinner part, okay? Not because mommy is unavailable due to her own limitations. Instead, it gets internalized and that is what becomes toxic shame. What is the primal injury that begot this emotion? And subsequently, how do I deal with it? Where it's appropriate. Meaning the right, like, not Victoria's Secret, okay? The primal wound. And then in experiencing that loss, feeling those feelings, which really sucks and really hurts, which is why people have defense structures, coping mechanisms, so on and so forth. The way through that, you feel it. And then after you grieve it, after you explore it, then we can implement a weight release. No, My trauma. No. A perspective. I've released it. And therefore, then I will be thin. A perspective shift and a behavior change. Yes, of course, I've been desperate my entire life to change my behaviors and shift my this and change my eating and buy factor and go on this diet and sign up for the trainer and go to the gym and do the thing and pay thousands of dollars and get the peloton and go to Soul Cycle. But that's all surface stuff, dude. Sure. But the shame, yes, Never came from myself. I know the shame is external factors. And that is why. Remember when you said to me earlier. Remember when you said to me earlier Fuck my parents. Okay. I didn't say it like that. Mommy's watching me and Mommy's watching. But here, let's talk about the parental wound. I'll tell you how my parent was wounded. Wanna talk about that? Yeah. Because here's the thing. I feel like you are saying maha Mah God. It's too close. I think they should have picked a different name. We could work on that. But my thing is, is that what you're saying is I feel that there's. You're coming to the table. You're like, listen, I think that I'm a little bit scared. This is an ad for Maha. But no, forget. I'm not talking about Maha. Jillian Michaels is saying she wants a seat at the table. She's gonna go to Southwest with Tigris and say, fat people deserve two seats. Don't charge them extra. Let them on the plane, bitch. She's gonna go to Nabisco and say, stop putting this shit in the food. Because, Jillian, I like the food in Europe. I like the makeup in Europe even better. I have been doing the Nabisco part. Cool. The Southwest part is a bit of a separate conversation, but the Nabisco is part of the conversations. I think you're coming to the table to say whether or not it's just like Oprah. We acknowledge our part and diet culture and whatever. Whatever. Like, let's make the change. Let's blame it on the bad guys. We haven't even talked about diet culture today. That is a separate episode. Body positivity is what we're talking about. I think we have turned to body positivity because of the shame. Because at nine years old, my mother, who was a translator for her mother, who was an immigrant at that time, it was very legal, easy to come to this country. My grandfather came here with a letter in 1960, 400 bucks in his pocket. They are the American dream. Gotcha. My mother was at the doctor with her mother and a doctor, a professional man, I'm sure he was likely white. Turned to her and said, ask your mom if she can have sex. Ask your mom. Just tell your mom. She's like a VW bug going up a hill with nine people in it. A child. I get it. I mean, that's where it all comes from, right? Like, my mommy wound is only because of her own trauma. It's multi generational. She's multi generational. It gets into the epigenetics. It gets into how she raised me. Maybe you don't know you're on a diet Till you're like six. And then you go to your aunt's house who's like, anything you want right here. What do you want? The grocery store will get you whatever. What did I want? I wanted Yoo Hoo like everybody else because I wasn't allowed to have Yoo Hoo. I wasn't allowed to have a Ding Dong When I came home and I said, I want Ding Dongs in my lunch. You know what my mom bought me? Low fat Ding Dongs. And low fat Ding Dongs aren't wrapped in foil, so everybody knows they're fucking low. It's not a fucking Ding Dong. I want the foil. I want the foil. So she's acting out of her trauma now. I'm just like, I didn't choose to be here. And now I'm like, literally, this woman is crying as I get off the plane from the Yoohoo trip. Because I had gained so much weight, my grandparents had to buy me new clothes. But I think that that great aunt that offered me the Yoo Hoo and said, it's right here, honey, and you don't have to ask anybody when you want one. She knew. She knew I was being restricted at 6 years old. And that is why at 26, when you hear about body positivity and you're like, well, I've been on a diet for like 20 years. Maybe there's more to life than trying to lose weight. That's what body positivity has given me. So do I still want, of course, to make the right choice every day for my nutrition? Yes. I mean, I can see there's like, empathy. I also feel like when you were talking and you thought I was going to interrupt, you could hear my thoughts through my eyes. And people like you only get to be people like you because you're a unicorn. You're a very special person to have gotten to the place that you've gotten in this world. The reality is. Can I interrupt you? I'll finish. My point is that that's where body positivity came from. I came. Body positivity actually came to me. You know what I was doing on YouTube? My first YouTube video is me doing the master cleanse and showing people how to cut the lemons and put their maple syrup in. But then body positivity came and said, hey, you should be talking about plus size fashion, not the master cleanse. Girl. Sounds to me like you still have a lot of stuff that is upsetting you. It sounds to me like you're still contending with a lot. I'm Contending with a society that every day, every minute of the day tells me not only I have to buy a product to eat dinner, I have to take a GLP1. Serena Williams is selling me a GLP1. Jillian, that's problematic. But listen to me. And then I'm. Now I'm old. Will you listen? You're still. You're still externalizing the wound. The first conversation. I think that's where we stay. The first conversation. That is the most important thing. I don't care about Serena Williams. I couldn't care Serena Williams. That's been mama. Who gives a. Because Jillian, she's not. When you're fat. When you. No, no, no, no. But when I am getting a GLP1 ad every time I open any app on my phone, watch the tv, drive down the hat. Sure. But imagine in my position, Jillian. Yes. I went six months where every waking hour. Yes. Including the 3am P. My mind. Yes. Said, should I go on a GLP1? Should I go on a GLP1? Should I go on a GLP1? Okay. Would you call that food noise? What do you call that? You tell me. I call it up. I call it up because I'm over here. Like, I own a plus size fashion store. I look like the first fat housewife of Beverly. I'm gorgeous. I got they thems. He is. She's coming out of my ears. I can. Anybody on the street, but this world wants to tell me that I need to shrink myself, that there's a thin woman within waiting to get out. Can I say something? I don't. I think I ate her. Can I say something? I. I don't think she's here. Can I say something? You also told me that. That what? The world. Tell me how the. Okay, back up. Okay. Tell me how the. The world makes you feel. I constantly feel like I have to be smaller. I have to be quieter. I have to be more submissive in my marriage. I have to shrink my body to fit on a plane. I have to have a bigger car because I need a little more room. I need to go to a special store or actually, even better, order it online. Makes me feel like shit. Makes you feel worthless. It makes you feel like I can't go to the mall and spend my money. It makes you feel. How devalued. Okay, okay, stop. When's the first time you felt that way? When I was in ballet and the teacher picked an outfit I didn't like for the recital. 8. When was it when your mom put you on a Diet? You said six. I mean after that Yoo hoo incident. It was a real. Did that make you feel the way you're currently describe it? Oh, I didn't know what was at 6 years old. I just. It's like I knew that. I knew the ding dong was different because it didn't have the foil, but I didn't understand. I know because it becomes you. But unconsciously you do understand. And now this pattern is playing out everywhere. It has a name. It's literally Freudian. It is called a repetition compulsion. What about the genetics? Like when I look at photos. You said there were no fat children 100 years ago ago. No, no, no. I find that very strange. Very few. Okay, there were fewer. Fact check me. But there are. There have always been fat people. Hold on. And there always will be. We will not be eradicated. And we're not going anywhere. That's where it's at. We've reclaimed the word. You don't have to do this anymore. You can say bigger bodied. You can say fat. I want to ask you right now to stop using obese and be a part of that. Okay, so you want fat. Obese is a slur. I've always thought that calling someone fat was actually far. It was because it was. Fat is. If fat is tissue, it's not a person, but society. It's the worst thing you can be. It's absolutely what every woman and child mostly. So you're saying fat is the worst thing you can be? So is that our society project? But so you guys want. That's what you're yelling at people on the show to be like, don't you want more than to just be fat? It's what everyone is so afraid of. Why do you think they showed up because they didn't want to be there. You think that they showed up because they were forced? There were hundred thousands of people. They showed up because they wanted change. Because the world is telling us we have to change. Listen to me. Stop making it about the world. Because if you cannot stop, listen. You can't change the world. I mean, sure, hopefully, maybe some people can. I don't know. It's not that frickin easy. You might be able to change. It's not that easy. Just. Just do things. But what we can change is how we respond to the world. That's what I'm trying to get you to understand. What I think you're doing okay with the world is reenacting this pattern that you have from being very young. And I don't think it's healthy for you because it keeps you pretty angry all the time. It seems like, oh, you don't know me well. I'm not an angry person. I think in this context, it's harmful to say that the world doesn't have an impact on why people want to be on a show that's about weight loss. I think that people want to be on a show that's about weight loss because they want to lose weight. I think it's because everyone has told us we have to lose weight, that you are not good if you don't lose weight. If your friends are at a burger joint, you're the one getting the salad. Because you know you should restrain from the burger even though we're at a burger place, because why should you restrain from the burger? Because that is what the world has told me, that I have to make the good, healthy choice. Also, let's talk about the fact that no one here said that we don't owe anybody health. I don't owe anybody my health. How you want to be healthy? I am healthy. I'm healthy for me. And this is what healthy for me looks like. Can I ask you this? If I sent you to a doctor who ran a full comprehensive blood panel, if there were biomarkers. Yeah. There would be some fatty liver stuff coming up. Okay, sure. Cholesterol. Classify that as physio, not value. This has nothing to do with your value. Yeah, no, I'm talking about numbers. The data. Liver healthy. But then people get fatty liver, too. They're far less inclined. Time. We're out of time. Thanks for sharing your story. I really do think that was valuable. Thank you all for being a part of this episode. I know you had to talk about your bodies. You had to talk about your lives. Jillian, thank you for being on this episode, bringing your passion. And Elon Musk, I know you're watching this, so why don't we get you in the center? You know what? I really appreciate everybody showing up. I really appreciate them sharing their stories. My issue with body positivity remains, though. Oh, it means this for me. Well, it means that for them. Well, it's about political activism. Oh, yeah. But big food like that, they can do whatever they want with the movement. Oh, but the influencers. That's not really us. But it kind of is. And that's kind of the problem, is that there's no centralized guideline. I think she is really limited in what she sees the movement as. She's blaming the movement for the things that people who have co opted the movement are doing. Call out the co opters. Don't call out the movement for not calling out the co opters. I do think there's a kernel in what Jillian said about, like, you know, thinking that body positivity focuses a little too much on the personal. From our perspective, we want to move beyond just the personal. We think the personal is important. You got to believe you're worthy of fair and equal treatment in order to demand fair and equal treatment. But we're going to work on the fair and equal treatment pieces of it. She was cool, she was calm, she was collected. And I don't know what exactly she's totally talking about, but she is calm, confident in her messaging. What we're here to say is that we don't want to spend our entire life trying to change our body. Shaming me into thinking that I should get on that thing, I should get on the scale or whatever. That's not going to work on me. Shame has no place in my life, and to me that's true liberation. Shame is not a part of this. I can't continue on with this shame again. It's more of the same defense mechanism. Every single person who came up and debated me had tried to lose weight, and then when they felt like they couldn't, this is where they resigned themselves. I'm not telling you that getting healthy is easy. I'm telling you it's doable and you have to decide if you're worth the work. Don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever you get your podcasts so that you don't miss an episode. And if you want to watch the video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.