Surrounded – Lila Rose vs 25 Pro-Abortion Activists

Podcast: Surrounded (Jubilee Media)
Episode: Lila Rose vs 25 Pro-Abortion Activists
Date: September 21, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Surrounded features Lila Rose, president of the pro-life organization Live Action, in a high-stakes, face-to-face debate with 25 pro-choice advocates and legal experts. The discussion is intense, emotionally charged, and wide-ranging, focusing on core arguments in the abortion debate: the emotional and physical impacts of abortion, the definition of personhood and rights, legality and constitutionality, as well as personal stories and ethical dilemmas. Listeners are offered unfiltered, direct exchanges that highlight the complexity and nuance of abortion discourse in America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Does Abortion Leave Women Scarred For Life?

(Starting at 00:57)

• Lila Rose's Claim: Abortion leaves women with lasting emotional and sometimes physical scars, citing anecdotal testimonies and studies linking abortion to increased suicide risk.
  • Lila Rose: “There is a California study...200,000 Medicaid patients, 150% more likely to commit suicide if they had had an abortion than if they had given birth...” [02:20]
• Pushback from Pro-Choice Activists:
  • Many share personal stories refuting this, emphasizing relief or neutrality post-abortion.
  • Pro-choice participants highlight the effect of external shame and stigma from pro-life activists as more emotionally damaging than the abortion itself.
    • Pro-Choice Activist: “It’s the shame that you get from pro-life activists...I know what it’s like to go to Planned Parenthood and walk out and...see people protesting, calling the women murderers.” [05:48]
• Turnaway Study Debate:
  • The "Turnaway Study" is referenced as evidence that most women feel relief, not regret after abortion. Lila disputes the methodology and sample size; participants defend its validity.
    • Pro-Choice Activist: “95% of people who got abortions said it was the right decision.” [12:58]

2. Real-Life Circumstances and Personal Stories

(Starting at 08:10)

• Multiple activists describe having abortions due to financial, mental, or situational instability.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “I personally did not feel like I was in the proper mental state, financial state, emotional state, physical state. I did not feel like I was in the best of any of those states to be able to bear a child...” [08:24]
• Adoption as an alternative is challenged due to negative lived experiences and systemic issues.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “I grew up in a home with foster children in and out…It's not the best environment that I, in my opinion, would want to raise a child in…” [08:57]
• Questions about Lila’s own choices, lack of adopted children, and perspective on the foster care system.

3. Medical Complexities and Edge Cases

(Timestamps: 14:01, 26:36, 29:03)

• Extreme cases (rape, minors, medical emergencies, non-viable pregnancies, etc.) are raised repeatedly as moral and practical challenges to a total abortion ban.
  • Pro-Choice Advocate: “My best friend wouldn’t be alive if her mother wasn’t able to have an abortion...” [17:57]
  • Pro-Choice Advocate: “So I remember the story of Anya...16 weeks...her water had broken...they had to turn her away because...it would count as an abortion under Florida’s 15 week abortion ban...” [26:36]
  • Pro-Choice Legal Expert explains cases where legal ambiguity or strict abortion laws have put women at genuine risk for their health.

4. The Definitions: Personhood, Science, and Rights

(Timestamps: 44:13, 59:33)

• Vigorous debate over when personhood begins, with pro-life participants claiming life starts at conception, while pro-choice experts point to brain development (around 22 weeks) as the start of “personhood” or subjective experience.
  • Pro-Choice Legal Expert: “A child implies a person, and I don’t believe personhood begins until around 22 weeks of gestation…” [44:13]
  • Lila Rose: “If I may...an unborn child is a member of the human species that is not born yet...” [58:24]
  • Notable analogy: “The car is on, but there’s no driver in the car. You don’t apply traffic laws to an empty car…” [44:55]
• Lila Rose counters with argument about the “natural capacity” for reason existing from fertilization.
• Active vs. natural capacity for consciousness or rights discussed in detail.
• Philosophical and ethical dilemmas about the relative moral value of embryos vs. born children.
  • Pro-Choice Advocate’s Analogy: “If someone shot and killed a born human baby, you would prefer that world over someone destroying a tray full of frozen zygotes under your worldview?” [59:55]

5. Bodily Autonomy vs. Fetal Rights

(Timestamps: 24:21, 88:04)

• Pro-choice activists repeatedly defend bodily autonomy as the pre-eminent right, challenging the notion that government or other individuals should dictate what happens inside their bodies.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: "My bodily autonomy is the prevailing right in this debate..." [88:14]
  • Lila Rose: Draws the line and claims bodily autonomy ends where another’s right to life begins, asserting the existence and preeminence of the unborn child’s rights.
• Parallels drawn to organ donation and parental responsibilities after birth.

6. Legality and Constitutionality

(Timestamps: 63:47, 64:01)

• Legal experts argue that, under former Roe v. Wade and privacy doctrines, abortion is or was a protected right.
  • Pro-Choice Legal Expert: “Liberty also means that you have the liberty to decide when you become a parent. That’s what kind of Roe was based off of.” [64:52]
• Lila Rose cites the 14th Amendment and “equal protection” as grounds for banning abortion.
  • Lila Rose: “...the 14th Amendment...says that no state has the right to deprive any person of life without due process under the law.” [64:01]
• The malleability of the constitution and whether abortion would need to be specifically added discussed at length.
• Distinction made between Roe, Dobbs, and the practicalities of enforcing bans.

7. Practical Policy/Criminalization and Stigma

(Timestamps: 78:05, 79:16)

• Lila advocates for criminal penalties for abortion providers, but hesitates to criminalize past women who have abortions; focuses on intent and knowledge.
• Pro-choice activists emphasize that shame, criminalization, and stigma are damaging and that pro-life rhetoric is experienced as dehumanizing.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “So what you do is actually villainize and shame women, and that has ripple effects throughout society.” [79:16]
  • Some draw parallels to infanticide and question consistency in legal definitions and punishments.

8. Racial, Socioeconomic, and Gender Dimensions

(Timestamps: throughout)

• Black women and other marginalized groups speak to unique experiences of bias, trauma, lack of support, and systemic obstacles—both in medical settings and in society at large.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “As a black woman, I have a higher rate of death in our society just by birthing…” [31:43]
• The double standard of responsibility and social expectations—in particular, blaming women and erasing men’s accountability—is called out.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “...why are we spending so much time on punishing the woman or the person that got pregnant, and not the person that made them pregnant?” [40:41]

9. Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Lila Rose (on regret):
  • “It does break my heart that if you’re sharing you had an abortion, there could be a child...who would be cheering you on saying, go get ‘em, Mom.” [00:00, 16:15]
• Pro-Choice Activist (on agency):
  • “You don’t get to speak for my child. Let’s start right there.” [00:13, 17:00]
• On rape/incest:
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “[Rape survivors] don’t get to make that choice [about their body] with that assault. But I do get to make the choice with what happens with that fertilized egg. And that is a problem.” [33:11]
• On scientific definitions:
  • Pro-Choice Legal Expert: “A child implies a person. I don’t believe personhood begins until [brain connectivity] around 22 weeks.” [44:13]
  • Lila Rose: “If I may...an unborn child is a member of the human species that is not born yet.” [58:24]
• On legal protection:
  • Lila Rose: “The child in the womb has the same human person as a child will be when the child’s born and they deserve equal protection under the law.” [72:51]

Notable Exchanges & Timestamps

• Opening Emotional Exchange – Lila expresses sorrow for lost potential children after abortion; Activist responds with anger about presumption.
  • [00:00 – 00:13]
• Personal Testimony, Systemic Issues – Foster care, poverty, domestic violence, and racism raised as factors in abortion decisions.
  • [08:10 – 17:53]
• Medical Necessity, Late-Term Abortion Cases – The “Anya Cook” and other late-term/medical emergency stories.
  • [26:36, 29:03]
• Personhood and Science Debate – At what point does personhood begin? Differences between consciousness, “natural capacity,” and the law.
  • [44:13 – 49:57]
• Criminalization and Justice – Should women and/or providers be considered criminals? Exploring intent and knowledge.
  • [78:05 – 81:06]
• Constitutionality and Legal Debates – 14th Amendment, Roe, Dobbs, privacy, and states’ rights.
  • [63:47 – 68:44]
• Debate on Bodily Autonomy – Lila vs. Dana on the core moral question.
  • [88:04 – 100:40]

Tone & Atmosphere

• The conversation is open, direct, and sometimes tense. Both sides express frustration at being misunderstood, dismissing opposing data, or being told “how to feel.”
• Storytelling is central, with both data and personal experience highlighted and often in conflict.
• Immediacy and raw emotion are present, especially when activists recount their own abortions or difficult choices, and in Lila’s insistence on the unborn’s value.
• Frustration arises over the inability to find common ground, but also, moments of mutual respect or recognition of the debate’s complexity.

Concluding Thoughts

• The polarization is clear: for Lila, abortion is unjustifiable under any circumstance; for many in the circle, it is a necessary aspect of autonomy, health care, or circumstance.
• Deep societal issues—racism, poverty, trauma, stigma, legal ambiguity—inform the discussion well beyond binary “choice/life” framing.
• Participants agree on one point: the importance—and difficulty—of having direct, honest conversation about the most controversial issues.

[Skip advertising breaks, product placements, and introductory/outro remarks per instruction.]

For Listeners New to the Episode:

This episode offers a rare, unfiltered window into the depth and passion behind both sides of the abortion debate. You’ll hear not only statistics and science, but visceral firsthand stories and philosophical questions about rights, ethics, and the meaning of life itself.

Useful Timestamps:

• [00:57] – Lila’s opening claim (“Abortion leaves women scarred for life”)
• [05:48] – The role of stigma and social shaming
• [08:10] – Personal abortion/foster stories
• [26:36] – Medical “hard cases” (non-viable pregnancies, late-term emergencies)
• [44:13] – The science and philosophy of personhood
• [63:47] – Legal/constitutional questions
• [72:19] – Whose opinions should shape the law?
• [78:05] – Criminalization and practical effects of abortion bans
• [88:04] – 1-on-1: Lila Rose vs. Dana on bodily autonomy

Memorable Quote

“My bodily autonomy is the prevailing right in this debate.”
– Dana, Pro-Choice Activist [88:14]

“Our bodily autonomy ends where another human being’s life begins.”
– Lila Rose [88:14]

For anyone looking to understand the contemporary abortion debate in America—both the personal and the political—this episode is essential listening.