Lila Rose vs 25 Pro-Abortion Activists

Summary

Surrounded – Lila Rose vs 25 Pro-Abortion Activists

Podcast: Surrounded (Jubilee Media)
Episode: Lila Rose vs 25 Pro-Abortion Activists
Date: September 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Surrounded features Lila Rose, president of the pro-life organization Live Action, in a high-stakes, face-to-face debate with 25 pro-choice advocates and legal experts. The discussion is intense, emotionally charged, and wide-ranging, focusing on core arguments in the abortion debate: the emotional and physical impacts of abortion, the definition of personhood and rights, legality and constitutionality, as well as personal stories and ethical dilemmas. Listeners are offered unfiltered, direct exchanges that highlight the complexity and nuance of abortion discourse in America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Does Abortion Leave Women Scarred For Life?

(Starting at 00:57)

• Lila Rose's Claim: Abortion leaves women with lasting emotional and sometimes physical scars, citing anecdotal testimonies and studies linking abortion to increased suicide risk.
  • Lila Rose: “There is a California study...200,000 Medicaid patients, 150% more likely to commit suicide if they had had an abortion than if they had given birth...” [02:20]
• Pushback from Pro-Choice Activists:
  • Many share personal stories refuting this, emphasizing relief or neutrality post-abortion.
  • Pro-choice participants highlight the effect of external shame and stigma from pro-life activists as more emotionally damaging than the abortion itself.
    • Pro-Choice Activist: “It’s the shame that you get from pro-life activists...I know what it’s like to go to Planned Parenthood and walk out and...see people protesting, calling the women murderers.” [05:48]
• Turnaway Study Debate:
  • The "Turnaway Study" is referenced as evidence that most women feel relief, not regret after abortion. Lila disputes the methodology and sample size; participants defend its validity.
    • Pro-Choice Activist: “95% of people who got abortions said it was the right decision.” [12:58]

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2. Real-Life Circumstances and Personal Stories

(Starting at 08:10)

• Multiple activists describe having abortions due to financial, mental, or situational instability.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “I personally did not feel like I was in the proper mental state, financial state, emotional state, physical state. I did not feel like I was in the best of any of those states to be able to bear a child...” [08:24]
• Adoption as an alternative is challenged due to negative lived experiences and systemic issues.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “I grew up in a home with foster children in and out…It's not the best environment that I, in my opinion, would want to raise a child in…” [08:57]
• Questions about Lila’s own choices, lack of adopted children, and perspective on the foster care system.

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3. Medical Complexities and Edge Cases

(Timestamps: 14:01, 26:36, 29:03)

• Extreme cases (rape, minors, medical emergencies, non-viable pregnancies, etc.) are raised repeatedly as moral and practical challenges to a total abortion ban.
  • Pro-Choice Advocate: “My best friend wouldn’t be alive if her mother wasn’t able to have an abortion...” [17:57]
  • Pro-Choice Advocate: “So I remember the story of Anya...16 weeks...her water had broken...they had to turn her away because...it would count as an abortion under Florida’s 15 week abortion ban...” [26:36]
  • Pro-Choice Legal Expert explains cases where legal ambiguity or strict abortion laws have put women at genuine risk for their health.

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4. The Definitions: Personhood, Science, and Rights

(Timestamps: 44:13, 59:33)

• Vigorous debate over when personhood begins, with pro-life participants claiming life starts at conception, while pro-choice experts point to brain development (around 22 weeks) as the start of “personhood” or subjective experience.
  • Pro-Choice Legal Expert: “A child implies a person, and I don’t believe personhood begins until around 22 weeks of gestation…” [44:13]
  • Lila Rose: “If I may...an unborn child is a member of the human species that is not born yet...” [58:24]
  • Notable analogy: “The car is on, but there’s no driver in the car. You don’t apply traffic laws to an empty car…” [44:55]
• Lila Rose counters with argument about the “natural capacity” for reason existing from fertilization.
• Active vs. natural capacity for consciousness or rights discussed in detail.
• Philosophical and ethical dilemmas about the relative moral value of embryos vs. born children.
  • Pro-Choice Advocate’s Analogy: “If someone shot and killed a born human baby, you would prefer that world over someone destroying a tray full of frozen zygotes under your worldview?” [59:55]

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5. Bodily Autonomy vs. Fetal Rights

(Timestamps: 24:21, 88:04)

• Pro-choice activists repeatedly defend bodily autonomy as the pre-eminent right, challenging the notion that government or other individuals should dictate what happens inside their bodies.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: "My bodily autonomy is the prevailing right in this debate..." [88:14]
  • Lila Rose: Draws the line and claims bodily autonomy ends where another’s right to life begins, asserting the existence and preeminence of the unborn child’s rights.
• Parallels drawn to organ donation and parental responsibilities after birth.

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6. Legality and Constitutionality

(Timestamps: 63:47, 64:01)

• Legal experts argue that, under former Roe v. Wade and privacy doctrines, abortion is or was a protected right.
  • Pro-Choice Legal Expert: “Liberty also means that you have the liberty to decide when you become a parent. That’s what kind of Roe was based off of.” [64:52]
• Lila Rose cites the 14th Amendment and “equal protection” as grounds for banning abortion.
  • Lila Rose: “...the 14th Amendment...says that no state has the right to deprive any person of life without due process under the law.” [64:01]
• The malleability of the constitution and whether abortion would need to be specifically added discussed at length.
• Distinction made between Roe, Dobbs, and the practicalities of enforcing bans.

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7. Practical Policy/Criminalization and Stigma

(Timestamps: 78:05, 79:16)

• Lila advocates for criminal penalties for abortion providers, but hesitates to criminalize past women who have abortions; focuses on intent and knowledge.
• Pro-choice activists emphasize that shame, criminalization, and stigma are damaging and that pro-life rhetoric is experienced as dehumanizing.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “So what you do is actually villainize and shame women, and that has ripple effects throughout society.” [79:16]
  • Some draw parallels to infanticide and question consistency in legal definitions and punishments.

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8. Racial, Socioeconomic, and Gender Dimensions

(Timestamps: throughout)

• Black women and other marginalized groups speak to unique experiences of bias, trauma, lack of support, and systemic obstacles—both in medical settings and in society at large.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “As a black woman, I have a higher rate of death in our society just by birthing…” [31:43]
• The double standard of responsibility and social expectations—in particular, blaming women and erasing men’s accountability—is called out.
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “...why are we spending so much time on punishing the woman or the person that got pregnant, and not the person that made them pregnant?” [40:41]

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9. Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Lila Rose (on regret):
  • “It does break my heart that if you’re sharing you had an abortion, there could be a child...who would be cheering you on saying, go get ‘em, Mom.” [00:00, 16:15]
• Pro-Choice Activist (on agency):
  • “You don’t get to speak for my child. Let’s start right there.” [00:13, 17:00]
• On rape/incest:
  • Pro-Choice Activist: “[Rape survivors] don’t get to make that choice [about their body] with that assault. But I do get to make the choice with what happens with that fertilized egg. And that is a problem.” [33:11]
• On scientific definitions:
  • Pro-Choice Legal Expert: “A child implies a person. I don’t believe personhood begins until [brain connectivity] around 22 weeks.” [44:13]
  • Lila Rose: “If I may...an unborn child is a member of the human species that is not born yet.” [58:24]
• On legal protection:
  • Lila Rose: “The child in the womb has the same human person as a child will be when the child’s born and they deserve equal protection under the law.” [72:51]

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Notable Exchanges & Timestamps

• Opening Emotional Exchange – Lila expresses sorrow for lost potential children after abortion; Activist responds with anger about presumption.
  • [00:00 – 00:13]
• Personal Testimony, Systemic Issues – Foster care, poverty, domestic violence, and racism raised as factors in abortion decisions.
  • [08:10 – 17:53]
• Medical Necessity, Late-Term Abortion Cases – The “Anya Cook” and other late-term/medical emergency stories.
  • [26:36, 29:03]
• Personhood and Science Debate – At what point does personhood begin? Differences between consciousness, “natural capacity,” and the law.
  • [44:13 – 49:57]
• Criminalization and Justice – Should women and/or providers be considered criminals? Exploring intent and knowledge.
  • [78:05 – 81:06]
• Constitutionality and Legal Debates – 14th Amendment, Roe, Dobbs, privacy, and states’ rights.
  • [63:47 – 68:44]
• Debate on Bodily Autonomy – Lila vs. Dana on the core moral question.
  • [88:04 – 100:40]

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Tone & Atmosphere

• The conversation is open, direct, and sometimes tense. Both sides express frustration at being misunderstood, dismissing opposing data, or being told “how to feel.”
• Storytelling is central, with both data and personal experience highlighted and often in conflict.
• Immediacy and raw emotion are present, especially when activists recount their own abortions or difficult choices, and in Lila’s insistence on the unborn’s value.
• Frustration arises over the inability to find common ground, but also, moments of mutual respect or recognition of the debate’s complexity.

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Concluding Thoughts

• The polarization is clear: for Lila, abortion is unjustifiable under any circumstance; for many in the circle, it is a necessary aspect of autonomy, health care, or circumstance.
• Deep societal issues—racism, poverty, trauma, stigma, legal ambiguity—inform the discussion well beyond binary “choice/life” framing.
• Participants agree on one point: the importance—and difficulty—of having direct, honest conversation about the most controversial issues.

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[Skip advertising breaks, product placements, and introductory/outro remarks per instruction.]

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For Listeners New to the Episode:

This episode offers a rare, unfiltered window into the depth and passion behind both sides of the abortion debate. You’ll hear not only statistics and science, but visceral firsthand stories and philosophical questions about rights, ethics, and the meaning of life itself.

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Useful Timestamps:

• [00:57] – Lila’s opening claim (“Abortion leaves women scarred for life”)
• [05:48] – The role of stigma and social shaming
• [08:10] – Personal abortion/foster stories
• [26:36] – Medical “hard cases” (non-viable pregnancies, late-term emergencies)
• [44:13] – The science and philosophy of personhood
• [63:47] – Legal/constitutional questions
• [72:19] – Whose opinions should shape the law?
• [78:05] – Criminalization and practical effects of abortion bans
• [88:04] – 1-on-1: Lila Rose vs. Dana on bodily autonomy

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Memorable Quote

“My bodily autonomy is the prevailing right in this debate.”
– Dana, Pro-Choice Activist [88:14]

“Our bodily autonomy ends where another human being’s life begins.”
– Lila Rose [88:14]

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For anyone looking to understand the contemporary abortion debate in America—both the personal and the political—this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

[Lila Rose]

It does break my heart that if you're sharing you had an abortion, that there could be a child. I don't know how old. They'd be 10 years old today. Who would be cheering you on saying, go get him, mom. You got this.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I can promise you that would not be the case with your statistic and your information.

[Lila Rose]

Maybe she had a right to live.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

You don't get to speak for my child. You don't get to speak for my child. Let's start right there.

[Moderator]

From Jubilee Media, this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Let's get into it.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

This episode is brought to you by FXX and Hulu. An all new season of Futurama is back. Blending heartfelt moments with razor sharp humor.

[Lila Rose]

While accidentally saving the day.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

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[Lila Rose]

Some days call for working up a sweat, working on your passion and endless action. Ditch the glitch with Liquid IV's new energy multiplier, sugar free refreshing flavors like strawberry, kiwi and BlackBerry lemonade. Scientifically formulated to support physical energy, hydration, focus, mood and social stamina. Liquid IV's new energy multiplier sugar free hydrating energy. Tap the banner to learn more. Hey everybody, I'm Lila Rose. I am the president and founder of Live Action. I am a mom of three, a wife and the host of the Lila Rose podcast. And today I'm surrounded by 25 pro choice activists. My first claim is abortion leaves women scarred for life. So from my understanding is scar means.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Permanent and I would argue that life is permanent.

[Lila Rose]

And so by not allowing women to.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

An abortion, you're basically saying you have to have this permanent being that exists in this world.

[Lila Rose]

Death is also permanent. And that's what a lot of women struggle with. Especially on the anniversary of when that baby would have been born for many women. Again, I've talked to hundreds just personally, but there are thousands and millions more out there on the anniversary of when that baby would have been born, 1, 2, 3, 4 years old, there's deep regret and pain and some struggle with mental illness afterwards or other struggles or they have fertility issues. There have been several studies done that show that women have higher suicidality who have abortions and that women that give birth. But there's a California study which is 200,000 Medicaid patients 150% more likely to commit suicide if they had had an abortion than if they had given birth? Right. So I think. What do you think about that?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So I have a lot.

[Lila Rose]

I have a lot. I also want to talk about the fact that from my understanding is you did go undercover into a Planned Parenthoods and I have many friends that work at Planned Parenthoods, which honestly I'd feel a little unsafe if someone was like going undercover to mask something. Do you know the other thing is women in abortion clinics. Oh, hold on, hold on a minute.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I think women abortion is not an.

[Lila Rose]

Easy choice for women. I don't go, oh, you know what.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

What do I want to do today? So go see a movie or haven't.

[Lila Rose]

It's not an easy choice. Girl, why is abortion not an easy choice? It's not easy for any woman. Why?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Why?

[Lila Rose]

Because you are literally deciding your own.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Future on your own terms and you're allowing women the choice.

[Lila Rose]

And why is that decision so heavy? For example, I could go in the decisions heavy. I could go in and get a wisdom tooth removed and I'm not going. Right. An elective choice, much like an abortion. I'm not going to have this heavy decision around it. Why is abortion such a uniquely heavy decision? Why are women the only ones having to choose these and worst shamed instead of men? Because the men who are committing, let's see, I don't think they're father of the year, quite frankly, is if they're committing acts of violence. We are in total agreement on that. We're in total agreement on that.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Okay, you're a mother.

[Lila Rose]

How many adopted children do you have? I don't have any adopted children. Okay, so what about all the children? Okay, so great.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Let's call up the agency tomorrow. It'll take a couple years to go.

[Lila Rose]

Through the adoption process. Well, leaving children in foster care into the system, are you aware thus affects them in cost women that have 2 million families. There are 2 million families who would like to adopt a newborn baby and they can't.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Okay, are you helping them? Because if you're.

[Lila Rose]

We do, we do promote and help them. But you know, you know the reason why they can't adopt. The reason they're not able to adopt is because we have a million abortions a year. Our country kills children. If there were a million abortions, I would say that a scarring exists. And those are all legal abortions. To be clear, those million abortions a year are all being Catholic, right? Are you not going to feel Catholic guilt when all the women are dying.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

In parking lots from illegal abortions.

[Lila Rose]

So people. Women are dying right now from legal abortions. Women who take the abortion pill. 30,000 of them are going into the emergency room every year because of the abortion. The legal abortion doctors are now in fear of malpractice. The media is lying to you guys. The media is lying to you guys because legal abortion kills women. It killed Tonya Reeves and a Chicago planned parent.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I have a lot of friends who had abortions. They're live. I was talking to them yesterday. They're pretty.

[Lila Rose]

They're pretty chill. They're actually pretty. They're in therapy because they made that choice to have children when they are ready to have children. There's tens of thousands of women who go to emergency rooms because of the abortion pill. There are dozens of women who die from. If they have safe access education. Early on, those were serious women and men, legal abortions that they were having. Men and women would have access to education to understand sex. You've been voted out by the majority who's returning to the court. Thank you. Nice to meet you. So I just want to, like, clear it up. When you say scarring for life, like, what do you mean? I mean, it leaves, at minimum, emotional wounds on many women, and some of them physical wounds. I think something to, like, focus on is, like, the emotional part. It's the shame that you get from pro life activists. I know what it's like to go to Planned Parenthood and walk out and.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Then see people protesting, calling the women.

[Lila Rose]

Murderers, chanting religious prayers at them. I think that's what's the scarring part, emotionally. So I've had the privilege of interviewing now almost 1,000 women who've had abortions and hearing their stories, and many of them share about how everyone told them it was the right thing to do, that no one had. There was nobody opposing it, and they had the abortion. But you run a pro life. And then years later, and this is their story, and then years later, they would say, focusing on people, well, this is their story, not mine. And they would tell me. And they would report about how after their abortion, sometimes it would be years later, they would remember it and they would say, what about the other stories who don't regret it? Or they would face mental health challenges, they'd face addiction. But what are the people who don't? Some of them would face infertility.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

You're not interviewing the people who don't.

[Lila Rose]

Regret it, who think that their life would have been worse off if they didn't get the abortion. So I think if what you're saying is there's some women who don't regret it, I think it's absolutely true. There are some women who would maybe sit right here and say, I had an abortion, I don't regret it at all. It was great. But that doesn't mean that abortion isn't leaving women scarred for life, because it is. But your gender, those stories usually aren't. Those stories aren't usually made or told by typical media groups. Usually in media and in the entertainment world, you hear the stories of the women that are saying abortion is great. It empowers me. And there are thousands and thousands of women who experience bitter abortion regret. And then there's also, women can have abortions and they want to have kids in the future, but they know that they're not in the position for it right then and now. So they can have guilt, they can feel sorry. But that's not all women. And that's totally valid. I think there's a stigma today, if I may. I think there's a stigma today on a lot of women that they can't share their abortion regret because society is telling them that abortion's your right. It's empowering, it's a reproductive freedom. And so if you have abortion regret, there's not really a space to share that stigma. You're feeding into the harmful narrative. What harmful narrative? That women are getting abortions and then that they shouldn't feel regret about it because they're murderers and that they should own up to their actions. That's what the pro life people are arguing. I think what our narrative, if you want to call it that, is to say this is a human life. The science tells us this. It's always wrong to take a human life. And abortion does leave deep scars on a lot of women. Thank you.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Okay, so when you say that abortion leaves women scarred for life. I have had an abortion before. I had an abortion actually a week before my 21st birthday. I'm a young black woman in America, come from a low income family. I'm also adopted.

[Lila Rose]

How do you feel about your abortion?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

How do I feel about my abortion? That's what I'm about to tell you. So I wouldn't want to have to make the decisions of what's next after a child is born. I personally did not feel like I was in the proper mental state, financial state, emotional state, physical state. I did not feel like I was in the best of any of those states to be Able to bear a child, to be a parent. To be a parent, Exactly. My circumstance was a little bit different with the father would have been child. He actually wanted me to keep the child, but I chose not to because of my body.

[Lila Rose]

Did you. I'm curious if you considered adoption.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I absolutely did. But like I said, based on my testimony and what I've experienced, I grew up in a home with foster children in and out. I have an adopted brother as well. We're two years apart. During my foster stay at my home, which is now my lifelong home that I've been at, I've seen all different kinds of circumstances. I've seen babies having withdrawals. I've seen babies who come from rape victims. I've seen all of it. I've seen all of it. You name it. It's not the best environment that I, in my opinion, that I would want to raise a child in. Okay. I have friends who have multiple children and they're struggling. They don't have the resources that they need. They don't have the proper support system that they need. The whole thing about this pro life and pro choice, it's not. I'm choosing to kill this baby. Pro choice is the choice of what I want to do with my body, not what you think I should do with my body. Wait, I'm not done yet. So anyways, what I want to do with my body. Who are you to judge me? I go to church. I'm actually a new member of the church, which is funny. I didn't believe in God a couple years ago.

[Lila Rose]

That's great that you're going to church.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Thank you. And, you know, the decision that I made maybe wasn't the thing that I 100% wanted to do. It was definitely.

[Lila Rose]

What do you mean? Did you feel pressured to have the abortion?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

No, absolutely not. Because everybody around me was in support of whatever I did, especially my mother and especially the father of the child. But I didn't feel pressured at all. In fact, I felt as if it was harder to make the decision based on how I'm gonna feel. Exactly. And as you're saying, women are scarred from this. I don't feel scarred. I definitely have an effect from it. But I don't think that saying this procedure scars women for life. Because you don't know what I'm going through up here. Absolutely not. I don't care who you are, what you stand for, what organization you're behind.

[Lila Rose]

I'd love to respond to what you're saying. You don't get to judge Me, I'd love to respond. The flags are going up and I'd love to see.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

But you know, like, my whole point is you have absolutely no idea what people go through.

[Lila Rose]

So I understand you're experiencing and you're telling me your experience, which is important. Everybody's experience is important.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Absolutely.

[Lila Rose]

A lot of the women that I've had the privilege of talking to, their abortion wasn't yesterday. Their abortion was a couple years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago. As you get older, you get more established in your life. You're a young woman. And I'm not saying that that's not me later down the line. But what I am saying, well, that's the key, right? Because we make big decisions, right? Especially when we're young, we can make big decisions. They have an effect down the line. And so my advocacy is to saying, this is a big decision, this is a human life.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

But is it your right to make the decision for me or to say what decision is right? Because God is the only one that can actually judge me.

[Lila Rose]

And based on my belief, he's the only one. It's not my right to tell you what to do with your personal life, but it is the government's responsibility to protect the right to life every life in the world. Do you want the government to protect you from being killed? You know, I want the government.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I want God to protect me from everything evil in this world. Absolutely.

[Lila Rose]

Do you think you have a right to life?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

But I can't guarantee that. I can't guarantee that I'm not gonna walk out the store and get shot in the head.

[Lila Rose]

But do you think if someone, do you think that if somebody tries to do that you would hope someone would intervene?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Honestly, I'm just gonna pray for the best.

[Lila Rose]

Well, I would hope someone would intervene and I wanna live in a country where there would be a penalty for that person that might persuade you.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

If you wanted somebody to intervene with the protection of life, you would be kind of, you know, getting more background on these, on these women and why they do the things that they do.

[Lila Rose]

Well, I think. Yeah.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Thank you.

[Lila Rose]

Nice to meet you. Okay. So do you know the number one.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Emotion women get after having an abortion is relief.

[Lila Rose]

Are you referring to the turn away study with that? Yes, I am. Okay, so the turn away study has been heavily debunked because it's done by those that support abortion. And they said they were going to follow 1000 women to see if there was an abortion regret after their abortions. Only 150 women would complete the study with them. The rest of them dropped off. Some of them struggling with issues maybe connected to that abortion. But only 150 completed it. So that's a survey of only 150 women. And again, I think we need to look at women at large and their experiences. And there will be some women who say, well, I feel great, I'm good, this is good. I don't regret it. And there's a lot of women whose stories aren't being told. But you don't look at women at larger experiences. That's what we do. And those women deeply regret their abortions. They feel scarred by their abortions and some of them suffer mental health issues afterwards.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

That's not true at all. 95% of people who got abortions said.

[Lila Rose]

It was the right decision. You're referring to the Turnaway study, which is that you could search that up. I think it's better to look at a study like the Medicaid study in California. 200,000 women, not 150 women doing a study with a pro abortion group. It was a California 200,000 survey of women of those that had abortions. They were 150% more likely to commit suicide than those that gave birth and did not have abortions. In Finland, there were two studies done of women there that found that women who had abortions had a higher likelihood of committing suicide than women who did not have abortions. People deserve to know this. Women deserve to know this because when they have an abortion, that's a huge life altering decision. Not just for ending the life of a baby, but it's life altering for the woman.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

It is life altering for the woman because, you know, pregnancy is a big deal. Having a baby.

[Lila Rose]

It is a big deal. Having a baby is very, very expensive.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

And if you're willing to put survivors children on top of that and the shame that they have to go through forcing an 11 year old to go through a pregnancy.

[Lila Rose]

And yes, they're not forced to be.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

A parent, but the adoptive and foster.

[Lila Rose]

Care systems are very, very. So my friend Liana Rebolado, she was brutally in a gang by age 12. She went to the doctor, she found out she was pregnant. She had severe mental health issues, suicidality from the trauma of the r PE. Right. She goes to the doctor, the doctor says, you're pregnant. And the doctor says, do you want an abortion? And she says, will the abortion take away the trauma of that, the horror? I feel like that's a choice though. But that's her choice. Let me just finish what she said. And the doctor said, no, it will not. He was honest with her. And she said, why would I take the life of this baby because of.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

The trauma that I endured. Not everybody.

[Lila Rose]

Not everybody will exterminate. It's a belief, but it's also a fact that it was a human being inside her. It was an innocent third party because of that. So every of her. Thank you. Nice to meet you.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So, based off, you've given incredible points, genuinely and truly, I'm learning quite a bit.

[Lila Rose]

Thank you.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So for the people that you say have the abortion young, how old do I look? Out of curiosity.

[Lila Rose]

Hmm. You're never supposed to answer that, right?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

No, go ahead, by all means.

[Lila Rose]

Will you tell me you'll do me if I do you? Yeah. You are 25.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I appreciate that. At about 10 more years.

[Lila Rose]

Okay. By your logic, you look awesome.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Thank you.

[Lila Rose]

You look amazing.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

By your logic, I should be in that age range of people who abort, let's say, you know, who should be feeling the regret and everything. If I had carried a term, I would be labeled a drug addicted black mother. And if I had kept the baby, I would have been labeled a incompetent single mother. So my question for you is, what is your perception of how I should feel about my abortion?

[Lila Rose]

So a couple things. First of all, sometimes the regret happens later in life. It's not within even five or 10 years. The trauma they feel might come out later when they have their own other children or grandchildren. So every woman, it's going to be different. Sometimes it's immediate, sometimes it takes years. I mean, I think you're amazing. I think if that's what you've overcome in your life, I think that's incredible and you should be proud of overcoming so many tough things in your life. It does break my heart that if you're sharing you had an abortion, that there could be a child. I don't know how old. They'd be 10 years old today who would be cheering you on, saying, go get him, Mom. You got this.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I can promise you that would not be the case. Because I can almost promise you that would not be the case. Because I say again, I'm in a domestic violence shelter. I've got a dog I can barely take care of. Excuse me? You're expecting me to sit here and let you tell me how I'm supposed to feel. You're trying to scare me.

[Lila Rose]

I'm not telling you how to do.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Yes, you are.

[Lila Rose]

Yes, you are. I'm not telling you how to feel with your statistics, but I Am telling you that your baby, your statistics and.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Your information with your statistic and your.

[Lila Rose]

Information, your baby had a right to live. You are completely wrong because. Yes, and I wish someone had been helping you more. Listen, that's the other thing. Listen. But you weren't there for help.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Everybody always likes to say, oh, keep the baby.

[Lila Rose]

Give it up for adoption. I know what our foster care system is like, but when you. I would have a child cheering me on. When you place a child for adoption. Hold on, you're not going to foster care.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

You don't get to speak for my child. You don't get to speak for my child. Let's start right there. You don't get to speak for my child saying, oh, mommy would be cheering you on. Everything like that. You don't know that. You don't know that at all. You don't know what my child would be. I may not even have my child because I was so unfit at the time. Drug addiction, sex work, everything like that. Yes, I'm a proud pro ho. That is exactly what I do. But you're telling me how my child would feel. And what gives you the right? Gives you the right. What gives you the right?

[Lila Rose]

I would love to respond to you. I would love to respond to you. I think, yes, your child had a right to life. And I would say that there are. I wish there were more people helping you at the time. It sounds like you were at a really rough time in your life. And I think that you mattered, that baby mattered and you both deserved more help. That's what I would say.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

That's what you would say. But you're saying my child would be cheering me on.

[Lila Rose]

I would hope. That is you live as a parent. You would hope. I would hope so. You would hope so.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

All of this is going off of hope. Please return to your seat.

[Lila Rose]

Thank you. So I just want to start off and you're saying that a lot of women have abortion regret. Right. So I'm going to tell you about what happened to my best friend's mom. She had a late term abortion, which I know you don't find morally acceptable, but how far along was she? I'm not sure sure the exact week. But she was told that her child would not live for more than one hour. However, if she gave birth to that child, she would never be able to have children again. That is literally what they told her. I'm so glad that she was able to get an abortion because my best friend wouldn't be alive if her mother wasn't able to have an abortion before she was even born. So I just like, yeah, there are some women who regret abortions, but we shouldn't just ban all abortions because of some of those women regretting it. So there are many women, I'd love to respond. I've heard so, so many stories of medical professionals who tell the woman, you have to have an abortion, X, Y and Z is their opinion. Right. And then I talk to many other medical degree and I talk to many other medical professionals. So you have a medical degree. If I can finish. I talk to many other medical professionals who say if you have a high risk pregnancy or there's a disability that the baby has, there is health care for you to protect both your life and the baby's life. That's what women deserve. They don't deserve to be told by the abortionist or the doctor, just kill this baby. That's the solution. Have the abortion so we can do better for both the mom and the baby. Just as an example, Dr. Anthony Levatino, he worked with tens of thousands of high risk pregnancies in upper state New York dealing with these very high risk pregnancies. He said in the number of pregnancies where we had to do an abortion was zero. Sometimes we would have to do an early delivery, but we would never have to kill, intentionally kill the baby to deal with the health risk for the mother. Medically necessary, right? Correct. And so as an example, your friend, right, you said she had a late term abortion because her baby had a health issue and was going to die and then otherwise she would have an issue. The doctor and my, you know, Dr. Anthony Levatino as an example, could have done an early delivery to give that baby a chance at life instead of intentionally killing that baby in your life. I don't understand what an abortion does. Hear across the table, there are thousands of medical professionals who fight for both the life of the baby and the mother. Tell me what my best friend's mother could have had done to her. She deserved better medical care. She deserved better medical care than what she deserved, that it was unfair and wrong when she was, she wasn't given a choice. She was given a choice. No, they told her, you're going to die. They told her, you have to have this abortion. That's what they told her she deserves. She cannot deliver children if she had not had that abortion. Did you know why? Do you think that she should have a force. Just to be clear, in a late term abortion, you have to remove the baby, right? Yes. And what is the Difference between a late term abortion where you remove the baby dead and an early delivery where you can remove the baby alive. One is an abortion and one is a life saving act. What she deserved was a life saving act for both her and that baby. And an early delivery could have been what she did. I agree. Because she wanted that child. That's why. It's devastating that they told her that it's wrong, that they told her that.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

No.

[Lila Rose]

But they were right. No. How can you say that when there are. Because I know the medical. There's thousands of medical professionals who say that abortion is not medically necessary. Not my opinion. It's thousands of medical professionals who say that that's. I appreciate that. But you're not a doctor and you weren't her doctor. There's thousands of medical professionals who say you can care for both mother and baby. That's fine, but it's you. Can doctors be wrong? Doctors can be wrong.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Can you be wrong?

[Lila Rose]

Could her doctor have been wrong?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so.

[Lila Rose]

No one forgets mom's 60th.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] the new Popeyes and Hot Ones menu is fire flavor.

[Lila Rose]

Trust me, because I'm about to eat it.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

That hits right away. Attempt the Popeyes Hot Ones menu in stores. Love that chicken from Popeyes 5 limited time in participating US restaurants.

[Lila Rose]

My next claim is abortion cannot be justified under any circumstance.

[Moderator]

So a couple things. First, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to make a lot of assumptions about your organization. I don't know the specifics, but when you say alternatives to abortion, I assume that you're saying philanthropic assistance when it comes to helping people with pregnancy or start families. Is that true?

[Lila Rose]

Yeah. Promoting options that are not killing the baby, basically. So that could be, without that moral language, adopting the baby.

[Moderator]

And I think that's valuable to a lot of people, especially if they don't have the economic means in order to start a family. So I want to commend you on that. When it comes to the policy proposals that you propagate as an organization, I would say that those don't help anybody, especially when it comes to just adding punitive measures.

[Lila Rose]

Are you familiar with our policy proposals? Because we are Making birth free. Do you support making birth free?

[Moderator]

Yeah, I think that'd be great. Do you support access to contraceptives?

[Lila Rose]

We support more cash credits for families who have kids so that they can invest back into their families and better take care of their kids. So part of what we do on the public policy side, it's smaller than our educational efforts, is to.

[Moderator]

I won't just criticize all of the policies then. I'll specifically criticize the ones that are punitive measures against women or against doctors who are facilitating this type of reproductive healthcare. That's not something that's gonna help.

[Lila Rose]

Here's a question for you.

[Moderator]

Unfortunately, and I'm assuming that there's a lot of ideological similarities with a lot of other conservative movements. So when it comes to things like gun rights, what I hear so much from conservatives are guns are something that's a necessary evil. If there was a world where we could get rid of all guns, that would be awesome. It's just one thing where there are going to be bad people with guns. And in order to counteract that, you're going to need good people with guns. And I would say the same thing for abortion. I think in an ideal world, we wouldn't have any abortions. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is it's going to exist whether or not that it's legal and can't have safe, actual procedures, or it's going to happen in the alleyways where it is going to damage women. And so to continue to advocate for punitive measures, and I'll let you speak after this. I think that that does more harm to women at large than it does to help protect the unborn life.

[Lila Rose]

Here's a question for you. Do you think that it is always wrong to kill an innocent person, an innocent human?

[Moderator]

I would say the intentional killing of somebody who's innocent is something that we should advocate against. What I will say, though, is, so.

[Lila Rose]

What is an abortion, in your view?

[Moderator]

One sec, I got to finish my point. What I will say is the rights of people's bodily autonomy is something that supersedes the preservation of life, especially when it comes to the government enforcement of that.

[Lila Rose]

Do I have the right as a mother to kill my child?

[Moderator]

So I think there are two ways that we determine what rights are in a society, right? It's either we all have rights and then we decide as a society that there are some actions that we need to restrict just because we live in a social world, or we have no rights and we just have the grace of the government that grants us some rights.

[Lila Rose]

I have a question for you.

[Moderator]

What I would start is I think that we do have all rights. I think that we restrict things that would be unnecessary and bad. I wouldn't count somebody's rights to their own bodily autonomy as something that we need to respect.

[Lila Rose]

So it sounds like you're making the argument that dependency means that a mother should have the child to end the life. Should have the right to end the life of her child.

[Moderator]

I would say dependency because I'm sure.

[Lila Rose]

Your child's dependent on her body. Right, that's what I'm saying.

[Moderator]

I'm assuming you're going to go into like a toddler's dependent in order to be fed by their parents.

[Lila Rose]

A newborn is totally dependent on their parents.

[Moderator]

But it doesn't rely.

[Lila Rose]

We can never end the life of a newborn.

[Moderator]

I know, but it doesn't rely on the specific bodily function.

[Lila Rose]

But it fully relies on the functions of everybody.

[Moderator]

Well, no, because you can opt out. You can give that to newborn babies.

[Lila Rose]

Relies on the functions of other adults.

[Moderator]

For sure, but it doesn't have to deal with that biological mother. The mother can't put it up for adoption if they don't have the means.

[Lila Rose]

In order to take care of her. So what you're saying. Let me make sure I say it back to you. You're saying the biological mother has the right to end the life of her biological child, but somebody else who's not biologically connected could end the life of a young child that's totally dependent on them physically?

[Moderator]

No, I wouldn't say that.

[Lila Rose]

Then what are you saying?

[Moderator]

Well, you like to go into a lot of biology. Do you know what an FMT is?

[Lila Rose]

Tell me.

[Moderator]

So it's a fecal microbacterial transfusion. It's necessary for people who don't have proper intestinal responses for immune disorders. And what it is is basically a transfusion of someone else's feces into that person. What's funny to me.

[Lila Rose]

Interesting.

[Moderator]

What's funny to me is we don't enforce people in order to like, collect their own poop in order to preserve life. So it's funny that we protect the sanctity of people's poop over people's wombs and uterus.

[Lila Rose]

The womb is designed for a baby, right?

[Moderator]

Not all wombs can deliver babies designed for babies.

[Lila Rose]

What else are they designed for?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I hate to do it, guys, I.

[Lila Rose]

Hate interrupting you, but it's the only way to. To keep the. No worries. Nice to meet you.

[Moderator]

Good to meet you.

[Lila Rose]

Thank you.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

So your claim is that abortion cannot be justified under any circumstances. Is that right?

[Lila Rose]

Correct.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Well, I want to tell you a story. So I'm from Florida, and I remember when I heard the story of Anya Cook and her husband Derek. They really wanted to have a baby. And they kept on trying and trying and they had miscarriage after miscarriage after miscarriage. And then finally they were able to conceive. And, you know, the pregnancy kept going and they reached 16 weeks. And they were so excited because they were finally going to have a baby. And they went out for dinner to celebrate it. And on the ride back home, Anya felt something going down her leg. And she said, I really hope that's not what I think it is. But it was. And it turned out that her water had broken. She had to go to the emergency room, and they turned her away because even though the pregnancy was completely not viable and the doctor said, you're going to lose your baby without a doubt, 100%, but if we gave you a procedure right now, it would count as an abortion under Florida's 15 week abortion ban. This isn't even when they went to the six week abortion ban in Florida. This was when it was still 15 weeks. They said this because you're 16 weeks, that would count as an abortion. We could go to jail, we could lose our medical license. We can't operate on you. So she had to go home with her stillborn baby that she had been so looking forward to having still inside her. And the next morning she felt so sick, and she said that she thought she was going to die, but she wanted to get her hair done first so that her mom didn't have to get her hair done. So while she was at the hairdresser, she felt like something was going to happen. So she got out of the chair, went into the bathroom, and that is when she saw her baby. And she had to call her husband in and her husband took care of her. And then she was bleeding out all over the floor, everywhere. She ended up losing half of the blood in her body that day. They operated on her for eight hours. And Derek and all of her whole family was there praying for her the whole time. And miraculously, she survived. But she would not have had to go through that if she was able to get the medical care that she need. And this is why I think that instead of having the government legislate, oh, abortion should be illegal. Except in this case, that case, the other case, it's impossible to have something so black and white as the law legislate something that is so individualized and so complex as every person's experience. And that's why I will always trust a mother and her family to make the right decision for her instead of the government trying to make things so black and white. And that's what abortion bans do. They cause people to get really sick and even die because they're denied the medical care that they need.

[Lila Rose]

Okay, so I'd love to respond. Thank you for sharing the story. Here's the deal. If the baby had passed away, you mentioned the baby was stillborn, or you said that we used the word stillbirth. If the baby was dead, if this was a miscarriage, the baby was dead, it was medical malpractice for the emergency room to turn her away and she would have had a lawsuit against them. In any pro life state in the country, any kind of care for miscarriage to complete a miscarriage if the baby has passed away is completely legal. And that's actually written in the books. So I think that's a really important point, that medical malpractice unfortunately does happen. And that could have happened in the.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Case abortion ban actually cause doctors to have to do medical malpractice.

[Lila Rose]

There's a lot of narratives out there saying that, but that's inaccurate.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

That's to justify, oh, if it's this.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Exception or that exception.

[Lila Rose]

There are thousands of medical professionals, including many in pro life states, who say we are able to do miscarriage care. We're able to deal with the baby.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Was still alive, completely under the prolific. Her water had broken, but her baby was doomed. It was going to die.

[Lila Rose]

Pause. Nice to meet you. Thank you.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So I am the executive director of one of the oldest rape crisis centers here in the nation. And one of the things that I need you to understand is that abortion care is health care for survivors. It also gives them the options that they need in order to move forward after they have had so many choices that have been taken away from them. So let's remind ourselves that most women who have been assaulted by know they're assaulters. One in 20 women who have had pregnancies have had pregnancies that result from assault. In addition, one in four women have had abortions. So these are women who are making these choices because they need to make these choices. And when you say to someone who has already had choices taken away from them that in addition to I have had my body violated, I have had my choices taken from me, that I then have to carry a child to birth and then have my life put in danger, and reminding ourselves that as a black woman, as a black woman, I have a higher rate of death in our society just by birthing. So I am putting my life in danger just to carry a child that has resulted from an assault. So you cannot tell me that there is no circumstance where I don't make that choice for my body and for the tissues that are in my body. There is always a space for me to make a choice for what is going to happen to my body.

[Lila Rose]

I'd love to respond if I may. First of all, we are aligned. That is absolutely horrific. We're aligned on that. And part of the work at Live Action is we do interview survivors of sexual assault and we talk to survivors of sexual assault as well as children conceived via sexual assault. That's part of their story. And we're aligned. That it's absolutely horrific. Where it sounds like we're not aligned is that I don't believe that two wrongs make a right. That if there is a horrific act of an assault. If I may just explain my position here. If there's a horrific act of assault, a rape and a pregnancy results and a new life is conceived that ending that new life, giving that new human being the death penalties, so what is finished? No, the only thing that has been.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

A fertilization of There has been a fertilization of an egg.

[Lila Rose]

If I may finish. If I may finish. So as an example, my friend Rebecca Keesling or my friend Ryan Bomberger, two amazing people conceived in Brutal and they go around and they say, I was that embryo, I was that fetus, I was that unborn baby. Do I not have a right to live? Should I have gotten the death penalty for the crime of my f. And that just as one more thing to.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Say that mother made a choice. That mother made a choice. I, as a person who has been assaulted, then get to make that choice for my body, if I might.

[Lila Rose]

And that's the difference. If I might.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

No, actually the difference is I get to choose what happens to my body because I didn't get to make that choice with that assault. I didn't get to make that choice with that rape. But I do get to make the choice with what happens with that fertilized egg. And that is a problem. And when I am sitting here, the 10 year old child who didn't have a choice about what happened to her body to then say, you must, you must carry that child until you give birth. That is unfortunate.

[Lila Rose]

If I can respond with a couple things that are really important. I think first of all, Rebecca Keesling, my friend who was conceived in her mother tried to have an abortion. It was illegal and she couldn't access one. So she ended up placing Rebecca for adoption. And Rebecca goes around and says, what about my right to life? And she ended up meeting with her mother years later. And her mother said, I'm actually glad I wasn't able to end your life.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

And I'm glad and I'm glad.

[Lila Rose]

I can just finish. If I can just finish. One of the key things that we need to be. We need to acknowledge is that abortion isn't something that's going to heal. Abortion.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Actually, abortion does. Abortion.

[Lila Rose]

If I can just the abortion. I'd love to respond to you. I'd love to just have a moment. Abortion can add trauma. It's another act of violence.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

It does not add trauma. There is no evidence that abortion adds trauma.

[Lila Rose]

If I may respond. In the state of California, 200,000 Medicaid patients, women, 150% more likely to commit suicide for those that had an abortion. If I may just finish. Than those that gave birth.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

There is no psychological evidence.

[Lila Rose]

There have been a lot of studies that have been done that show that.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Absolutely, absolutely not abortion.

[Lila Rose]

There is traumatizing.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

There is actually correlation to the trauma of having to carry the birth to term. There is correlation to the trauma of the.

[Lila Rose]

Well, I think stigma, early delivery might be the right decision because keep in mind, what is an abortion? It's the forced birth of a dead fetus or embryo. An abortion is the forced birth of a degree.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

No, an abortion is an actual medical procedure to remove tissue from your body so that you.

[Lila Rose]

What kind of tissue is being removed in an abortion?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Fetal tissue.

[Lila Rose]

Of what? Of what? Of a what?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Of a fetus.

[Lila Rose]

Of a fetus. And what is a fetus?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

A fetus. A fetus could grow to be a live birth.

[Lila Rose]

So is a fetus alive?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Not necessarily.

[Lila Rose]

If the fetus is dead, why do you have to have an abortion?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Well, you have to have an abortion to remove the fetus from your fetus is already dead.

[Lila Rose]

I have no problem with removing a dead baby.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

As you saw with the baby, if.

[Lila Rose]

The baby's alive, what is the fetus alive when you're doing an abortion, an elective abortion.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So sometimes a fetus is not alive when you do an elective abortion.

[Lila Rose]

So we would agree that that would be a miscarriage and we are. No, no, no, no.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Absolutely not.

[Lila Rose]

The baby has already passed away.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Absolutely not.

[Lila Rose]

Because there are. I am only against an abortion that is intentionally taking the life of an innocent human thank you.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Thank you.

[Lila Rose]

So your claim is that there's no right for abortion under any circumstance at all. Which obviously I disagree with because I'll just define abortion really quick just for clarity, because it was. You don't really need to. For me, the intentional killing of a living, whatever you want to call it, I don't disagree with it anyway. So my point though is that there is, there should be exception.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I mean I think you should be.

[Lila Rose]

Able to get it if you want one. But under any circumstances, the 10 year olds that are raped, which you know, that 10 year old in Ohio who was by her father then was told.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

She couldn't have an abortion, had to.

[Lila Rose]

Go to a different state. So you're more than comfortable with holding down a 10 year old once again to make her do something with her.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Body she doesn't want to do.

[Lila Rose]

So an abortion is another act of violence in my view, both of that baby and of a rape survivor. I think this view that we have that abortion is somehow going to heal Even if that 10 year old is crying and begging you. I don't want to give birth. I don't want to carry it for nine months. I don't want to be. I think she deserves the best support and care. She needs to be taken out of the best support and care situation. Health care and health care would be an abortion. But we can't take the leg of innocent child. I think in that case, in that case an early delivery. If I can just finish. No, you're affording more empathy toward a zygote more than you are a living, breathing 10 year old who just went through something seriously traumatizing. So your empathy is in a place I don't understand. If I can respond now.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

You can absolutely.

[Lila Rose]

So is absolutely horrific. Incest is absolutely horrific. We are completely aligned in that we need more penalties for abusers. I think one of the things that I have about that case that I've seen is there's no story about what happened to her abuser. Was she protected from her abuser? It's like that's left out of the narrative. I mean, but what I've heard you say before, you shouldn't punish a child for what you call generational sin. But if I can, if I can finish. If I can finish. But which child are you? Not pun. Which child? You gotta let me make the case. You gotta let me make the case. You're worried about punishing a child, but which one? The 10 year old who was already punished. Can I respond now? You can in A case of or incest. And there's a new life that's been conceived. There's another human being now we're talking about. It's not just the abuser and the victim. There's another potential victim, there's a psycho. And we need to care for both. They're both human beings. And in the case of a very young girl who's been the victim of a horrific assault, the idea, you wanna hold her down again. The idea. Well, in an abortion you're literally held down and you have to submit your body to an act that will deliver that she would want to have done. Well, you're speaking the other, you're speaking for her. No, no, no, we're Talking about the 10 year old who wanted to get that abortion. But the point here is, is that there are human rights now in play for an unborn child and a born child. They both have rights. And I think the medical care is very key as well as the counseling and the support that she deserves. And probably an early delivery would be what would be necessary to protect her health and to make sure that the baby would have a chance to live. But at the end of the day, you don't give the death penalty to the baby because they were conceived by a rapist, because their father is an abuser. We don't even give the death penalty in this country to rapists. Were you aware of that? My question for you can't even get the death penalty for why would we be okay with giving the death penalty to a child? Because they're conceived. It's not a child. What are they? It's a zygote. It's an embryo. What is an embryo? What is. And I'm not going to get into the science behind it because the thing. You don't think the science matters? Not in this argument right now. So you don't think there's no right for an abortion for any reason. But there definitely are. Like Nancy Davis in Louisiana, if I can just.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Her child is gonna be born with.

[Lila Rose]

A crania, meaning without a skull. You thought, and you said this to her, you said, I think your child should have died in the loving arms of their parents instead of at the tools of the abortionist. Now this woman was going to give birth to a child that will die within minutes of being born. So you're not bringing life into the.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

World at that point.

[Lila Rose]

You know what abortion procedure would have been done on her baby? Do you know what abortion procedure would have been done on her baby in a later term? Abortion that she had in the second trimester. If I can just complete my sentence here, either there would have been a lethal injection of that baby to kill that baby, or that would have been a live dismemberment of that baby. Those are the abortion procedures used in the second or the third trimester. And you don't think anyone should have been. But you support that? Do you support that? Thank you. Hello, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. You're very brave. You are too. So I would like to ask you. So I believe in abortion at all levels whenever the person chooses.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

But I would like to ask you why you think the attention and responsibility and all the shame that you guys give to people that get abortions instead of the father? Like, why are we spending so much time on punishing the woman or the person that got pregnant and not the person that made them pregnant when they control when they ejaculate. Women can't control when we ovulate. So really, if you want to have responsibility, it should be with the person who bothered the child.

[Lila Rose]

I think you're totally right that men bear equality responsibility for any pregnancy. And I'm, I'm. Well, I would say it's equal. It takes two to make the baby. And I think not always.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Sometimes you get held against your will.

[Lila Rose]

Well, in that case, yes, it's even more horrific and the man not only is responsible, but he should be put in jail. I mean, that's even a horrific situation. Right. So we're not used your efforts, but. Well, I think. I'm not sure how familiar you are with our work, but a lot of our work includes reporting on women who are being coerced into having abortions by men who would not take responsibility for that baby that was conceived. But that's completely separate because a lot of men, especially obese, abusive men, they see their subject of abuse, that woman if she gets pregnant or that girl if she gets pregnant, they see that as something in the way of them being able to continue to abuse and use her. They don't want her to be pregnant. And so one of the research reports that we've done shows that in the life of a sex trafficking victim, she'll have up to at least one and up to multiple forced abortions in her life because her pimp doesn't want her to be pregnant because he can't monetize her, basically. So this is some of the horrific underside of the abortion industry that they actually profit off of coerced abortions. But again, you're shaming rape based abortions, trafficking victims, abortion pregnant and not the perpetrators. What do you mean by shaming? You're the one saying that women or people that are get pregnant are not making decisions that are right for their own bodies.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

You're empathizing them.

[Lila Rose]

And then you're also not putting responsibility on people that actually caused the situation. Well, if it's a rapist, we are in full, I think we're probably in full agreement that they should be held fully criminally responsible and put in jail and stay the rest of their life. And my dad's fun to say that.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

But the conservatives do not act like that. They act like it's entirely women's responsibility.

[Lila Rose]

I can only speak for myself here in my organization and we work with liberals, we work with conservatives, we work with Republicans, we work with Democrats. So we're a nonpartisan organization. It's nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Hey, before we go any further, we want to take a moment to say thanks so much to Straight Arrow News for powering the fact checks in this video. Straight Arrow News is an app and website that is on a mission to raise the bar on journalism in a time of media bias and mistrust. Their team of journalists believe that unbiased news should be the standard and not just the exception. So they report down the middle with facts, delivering news without bias, filter or spin. Plus, their media miss tool allows you to discover news that's being under reported or not even reported at all by different sides of mainstream media. That's why we're so happy to be partnering with Straight Arrow News. The work they're doing gives us a complete picture of the news straight from our phones and tablets with their app. Go to san.com surrounded or click the link in the description to check it out. By clicking that link, you're not just supporting this channel, you're also supporting a group of journalists that are raised the bar on news and focusing on serving you unbiased straight facts. Thanks again to Straight Arrow News for partnering with us on this episode. Now, let's get into it.

[Lila Rose]

My next claim is every unborn child has the right to life.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

So when you say a child, I feel like you're kind of like preemptively loading the prompt with a lot of emotions. A child implies a person, and I don't believe personhood begins until around 22 weeks of gestation when if you want to get into the neuroscience, the thalamus connects to the cortex and the brain finally has the capacity to support a subjective experience. So why do you think that a fetus at 10 weeks, eight weeks, for example, that has no capacity to be self aware, to experience pain or anything else should be valued equal to the bodily autonomy of a woman?

[Lila Rose]

Okay, so a few questions for you to get to answer. That is, do you believe that a human fetus is a human?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

It's a human, yeah, sure.

[Lila Rose]

Okay, so your argument is that some humans don't have human rights. Because my argument is that every human has a human right. First rate is life.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

He's getting into semantics, like the colloquial way we use the word human versus maybe a more scientific way. So obviously a fertilized egg and beyond has human cells. The question is, when we talk about protecting that life, when does it become on the same level as the life of the mother who has bodily autonomy? And the answer there is 22 weeks. Because again, prior to that there's nothing. The car is on, but there's no driver in the car. And you don't apply traffic laws to an empty car. Right. There has to be a subject present. It can't be a something, it has to be a some one.

[Lila Rose]

So does a newborn baby have the same capacity brain abilities as a three year old?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

No.

[Lila Rose]

And does it?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

It has the same capacity for consciousness though, because the thalamus and cortex are connected.

[Lila Rose]

So you're defining human life as consciousness, that's your definition?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Yeah, the ability to have a subjective experience. Consciousness. Sure.

[Lila Rose]

So if someone is unconscious, are they no longer human?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

They still have connections with their thalamus and cortex. Whether it's under general anesthesia, whether they're.

[Lila Rose]

Asleep, if they're in a coma, you would say they're still human beings.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

They still have the neural pathways connecting those parts of the brain.

[Lila Rose]

If you're an unborn child before you've developed your brain fully. Right. Because we all started life before our brain was developed. Right. And then eventually after a few weeks, we would develop our brain and then develop more capacities with our brain. But that child, before it has developed its brain, has the natural capacity for a brain because that's what will happen if no one kills that child.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

When you say before it's developed a brain, do you mean prior to 22 weeks?

[Lila Rose]

Prior to 22 weeks. And there are parts of a lot has happened in the brain activity even before 22 weeks, as I'm sure you know.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Sure.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

But it's not sufficient to support a subjective experience. And when you talk about prior to 22 weeks, I would agree a potential life has some value, but it's not equal value to an actual person who has a right to bodily autonomy. If 200 years in the future, thanks to, like medical technology advancements, we can safely remove an eight week fetus from a mother, respect her bodily autonomy and protect the fetus, I don't think anyone's going to call for abortion in that situation. But the reality is respecting her bodily autonomy typically is mutually exclusive with terminating or keeping that pregnancy.

[Lila Rose]

So make sure I'm tracking your argument here. You're saying that before this specific moment, when there is a certain level of brain development because the brain has begun.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Certain connections between brain regions and why.

[Lila Rose]

For you, is that the level of humanity? Why for you, does that give that person human rights?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Because that includes anyone. We'd want to include people that are asleep, people that are under general anesthesia.

[Lila Rose]

And if they have a brain developmental disorder where they're missing part of their.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Brain, like anencephaly, for example, and those.

[Lila Rose]

Connections aren't there, would you say they're not a human anymore?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

They'd still be a human and like.

[Lila Rose]

I said earlier, but they don't have those brain connections that you're talking about.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

I'm talking about personhood versus being a human.

[Lila Rose]

Well, that's what I'm talking about too. So I'm saying.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

So I want to be clear with the terms here. When you say they're a human, I'm agreeing that even a fertilized egg is a human, is a person that should be given.

[Lila Rose]

So are you saying that a person with a brain developmental disorder, like a significant development disorder, are you talking about anencephaly, for example, as an example, that they would not be a person of you, it's okay to kill that person?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Well, no, that's not what I'm saying.

[Lila Rose]

Then what are you saying?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

As I said earlier, when there's a potential life, a partial life, you still give it some value. You have to take reasonable steps to protect it if someone's born.

[Lila Rose]

So what steps would you give it.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

To if someone's born with anencephaly? There's no conflict there between the bodily autonomy of a woman and the person with anencephaly. The reason you do an abortion is not like, oh, I want to kill this fetus for fun. There's a conflict between the woman's bodily autonomy and the fetus developing. If there's some way to resolve that and respect both parties, that would be great. But we don't have that kind of medical technology.

[Lila Rose]

So the prolific position is that if you are a human, you have Human rights, regardless of how developed your brain might be, because some people have severe developmental disabilities, and that doesn't make them less of a human or they have less.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

I never said that it does.

[Lila Rose]

Well, your argument actually infers that it does actually, because it's saying that this particular level of developmental ability that your brain may have gives you, which exists.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

By the way, in pretty much anyone other than people with those people usually die in a couple days.

[Lila Rose]

But is it okay to kill that person before they die naturally because of. Because they lack this if they're still.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

In the womb or after birth.

[Lila Rose]

But what if they're okay, let's take your scenario. What if they're after birth and they lack the specific connections that you're saying? Define person.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Sure. They only have a brain stem, usually.

[Lila Rose]

And they're after birth. There's a little boy named Jasper. He lived almost, I think, three, four years with a severe condition, a developmental condition in his brain.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

It's not okay to kill that. Kill that.

[Lila Rose]

But why would it not be okay to kill them when they lack this specific brain connection that you're saying makes it okay to kill the baby?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

The reason it's okay to kill the Fetus prior to 22 weeks is not because it's just. Is good enough itself. It's because it's the only way to resolve the conflict between the bodily autonomy of the woman and the fetus. If someone's born with anencephaly, their existence is not impeding on the bodily autonomy of anyone else. And then you want to take all reasonable steps to help that person, not harm that person.

[Lila Rose]

So I think we agree on bodily autonomy to a degree, because I agree that I have bodily autonomy, you have bodily autonomy. But I think my bodily autonomy ends when another human being's bodily autonomy begins, even before they're fully autonomous.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Does your autonomy outweigh your.

[Lila Rose]

So it's not that it outweighs. It's that there are two lives. Like, it would not be right for me to be killed by you. Right? I have a right to live. And similarly, if I had another body inside my body that was a developing human being, which is what pregnancy involves, Right. Maybe one, maybe two. They have a right to live and to not be killed. So I don't have the right. Even though there is a responsibility I now have, they're using my body to develop. That's how we all behave in our life. And that child still has a right to not be killed. Parents have natural.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Why does that woman not have a right to still have her Bodily functions kept intact and have like her bodily autonomy kept intact.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

When.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

When you can deliver the baby.

[Lila Rose]

Sure.

[Moderator]

Deliver the baby.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Going home.

[Lila Rose]

What is the womb designed for? What is the womb designed for?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Like, gestation.

[Lila Rose]

Gestation of what?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

The baby.

[Lila Rose]

Right. So the womb is designed for the baby. Nice job. Thank you. Nice to meet you, Adam.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So my first question is, are you familiar with an anime or a manga series called Monster?

[Lila Rose]

I'm not. Tell me about it.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

In Monster, essentially you have a doctor, and this doctor has a choice. He has a choice to decide between either saving this young boy's life or saving the life of. I believe it's a sponsor of the hospital. He chooses to save the young boy's life. This young boy grows up to be the titular monster. Worse than Hitler. Does that child have a right to life?

[Lila Rose]

Yes. Every child has a right to life.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Even if they turn out to be the most monstrous thing you could possibly produce? Even if. Even if their life means the life ending of everyone here, does their life still hold?

[Lila Rose]

I believe monsters are not born, they're made. So just because a child might eventually do something when they grow up and become an adult, doesn't mean we have a right to kill them before that. I don't know what went on in their childhood or the choices that they made, but at the end of the day, everyone has a right to life, especially a child. They're innocent.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Let's say this child grows up and their life is miserable to the point of where they would want to end their life. And that's going to obviously leave some kind of ricochet effect. Everybody's going to be desperately devastated by that. Would you say that the parent who believes that that is where their child's life is going, does that child still deserve the right to life?

[Lila Rose]

Are you saying that if a child is being abused, then we should be in support of killing that child?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Then let me be more specific. What would you say to me as someone who is a third generation suicide survivor? So my mother, my grandmother, and their lives were miserable.

[Lila Rose]

I'm so glad that you're here and I'm so sorry that that's part of your history and that your, your, Your mother, your grandmother endured that. And I'm so glad that you're here. I think your life is awesome and I think every life is awesome now.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Would you say the same if you knew that I was living in a domestic violence shelter where I consider taking my life free? Would you still say that I don't deserve to not only, not only end that life but especially as somebody who did have an abortion, as somebody who had to make the decision to escape their abuser, their predator, their captor, as someone who was trafficked and pimped, would you still say that raising that child under those circumstances would have either made my life difficult, or would you still say that child has a right to life? If I made the decision, I don't want to be tied to a predator for the rest of my life. I don't want to be tied to my captor for the rest of my life.

[Lila Rose]

So if someone's dealing with horrible abuse, and I hope that didn't happen to you, but if you were dealing with horrible, I am, and I am so sorry. That's absolutely horrible. You deserved much better. You deserve to be taken out of that, rescued from that, and given a better life. And that would be my hope for every person and what I'd want to work towards for every person. As opposed to saying death is the answer or a suicide is the answer or abortion is the answer. I think choosing life is always better.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Now, what would you say if I.

[Lila Rose]

Were to say, yep, thank you as well. Appreciate it. So, first, I'm a mother. Awesome. Congrats. And I know you're a mother, too. Yes. And I think that as mothers, having our bodily autonomy, the right to control our own body and make our own decisions, especially when it comes to pregnancy, is paramount. And I think that calling an unborn child an embryo or fetus an unborn child as mothers is disingenuous, and it is disempowering for us. I don't know how a child would fit in my uterus. It doesn't even really make sense. So when we're talking about an unborn child, I think we should say in this space, like, out of respect for everyone, it's a fetus. It's an embryo. Do you know the meaning of the word fetus? Yes. What is it? It's a baby. An upward baby? Yes. I'm not here to argue anything scientific with you. I'm here to talk about bodily autonomy. Well, the science does matter. The bodily autonomy is what I'm here to talk to you about. Well, I think both matter. Right. So the science tells us. You just had a guest who argued science with you. I am not a scientist. I'm a mother. I am, too. But I'm saying the science, I think, does matter. Okay. I'm so glad it matters to you. Everyone here has a different reason why abortion rights matter to them. And. And as me, a mother, and as Someone who in a red state, when they were trying to pass a six week heartbeat abortion ban, I went into the ER and I was questioned about what I had done to cause a possible miscarriage. Because at that time the state legislature was working to ban abortion at six weeks and I was 11 weeks and I was turned away. I was questioned about what I had done. I want, wanted that pregnancy. I want another pregnancy. I have a child. I want to stay alive for my child. So my bodily autonomy is the paramount, is the most important thing. And to say women's bodily autonomy should be sacrificed for a hypothetical baby. A hypothetical child. Because a pregnancy that is not a child, it's a baby, it's a fetus and it's an embryo. So I'd love to respond to what you're saying, first of all. Well, first, before you respond, I just want to hear one argument because I have never heard anyone from your organization make an argument of why the government or you or anyone knows better for my body than me. So I'd love to respond if I how you know better about my body than me. So I don't know your body personally. You're right. You don't know anyone's body but your own body. But what I shouldn't be making this. If you would let me respond, I'd love to respond to what you're saying. So your argument is that bodily autonomy, your bodily autonomy is more important than the unborn child's right? No. They're equal. No. Okay, didn't listen. So you. Do you have the right to kill your unborn child? My bodily. Do you have the right to kill your unborn child? I have a right to use my body and my organs. However, I. To kill your unborn child. No one has the right to use my body or organs without my consent. So does that mean my son, how is it killing him? My 5 year old abortion is killing that child needs a kidney or he will die. If I don't give my. Is that killing him? Is that killing? If I don't give him my. If I can respond, we can't have a conversation. If I can't respond, respond. An abortion is the intentional killing of that child. So that is your definition. It's a medical procedure. It's a healthcare medical procedure. You would let me respond. So an abortion involves either poisoning the baby to death via an abortion pill, it involves suctioning the baby to death. In a first trimester abortion, it can involve live dismemberment of that baby. In a second trimester abortion or in a third trimester, abortion involves a lethal injection. In all of those cases, bodily autonomy. In all of those cases, it's absolutely bodily autonomy. Explain what? Whitney, I'm so sorry. You voted out by the majority. Please return to your speaker. Thank you, Whitney. Okay, so I just want to get some clarification on your definitions here. Yes. How do you define a child? What is a child? Okay, great question and great thing to do. First of all, an unborn child is a member of the human species that is not born yet. Okay, so that would include a child in the womb, or it could include a child that's in an ivf. What are characteristics that are distinct that create the definition of a human? How do you define a human? A human is a member of a human species. So that's a mimic. Under the law of biogenesis. A human would be the offspring of parents in the same species. Okay, so what is the distinction between a human and a living, other living organization? Genetically, we might be pretty similar in some ways, but there's some key differences. What is the key difference? The human genetic code is substantially different than any other. Could you say maybe level of awareness is something that distincts us from just, let's say, bacteria or plants or other life forms? I see. Yes. We have the ability for reason, to have a conscious experience. Yeah. Ultimately, human beings have a natural capacity to be able to reason and to be able to choose and love and do things that, you know, animals might have some. So you would say that's a determination of a human being. That's what determines a human being having awareness and a conscious experience. Well, I mean, you know, animals have consciousness. We have the ability to reason. Ultimately, human beings have a natural capacity. This is what. That doesn't mean distinct from living, other living organisms, but just to be like plants or anything. But just to be clear, human beings have the natural capacity for reason, but they don't all have the active capacity. So a newborn baby doesn't have an active capacity for language, for reasoning, for making arguments that a maybe adult would. And similarly, we all know that an unborn baby is a human. Even though are the blueprints the same as a building? Like, are the blueprints the same as a building? No. Okay, so if you go up to. And you see the structural integrity of something that a building's. There's all these pieces that their habits set aside. Someone goes and they vandalize that. Would they say, oh, you vandalized. I hear what you're saying, but the analogy doesn't fit because how does it fit? Because an unborn baby is not a blueprint, okay? It's not the genome, all the. The genetic. Your DNA is a blueprint. But the unborn baby is also made of cells which are, like you said, the building blocks. But it's not human. Because you even said yourself that awareness and consciousness is what defines what if there happens in the third trimester and we see that actually 90% of abortions occur according to the Gut Macro Institute. Are you saying the unfortunate trimester. Pause, pause.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

So my fundamental issue with a lot of pro lifers is they have a misreading or a misunderstanding of why exactly we grant moral consideration to other humans. It is not unlike your view, because we are simply of the human species and a live organism under your worldview, and correct me if I'm wrong, at the moment of conception, that you have a right to life and that right to life is equal amongst all human beings. Is that correct?

[Lila Rose]

At the moment of fertilization, yes. We all have an equal right to life when a single cell embryo. So the science shows us at the moment of fertilization, well, it's important a single cell embryo comes into existence.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

I'm not even distinguished that's unique and.

[Lila Rose]

Genetically distinct from his or her mother.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

So you would prefer a world where there are less rights violations than a world where there are more rights violations, is that correct?

[Lila Rose]

Of course.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Of course. Okay, so in a world in which someone shot and killed a born human baby, you would prefer that world over someone destroying a tray full of frozen zygotes under your worldview? If those. If that is a world in which there are more rights violations happening. A tray of frozen zygotes. Zygotes in petri dishes would be worse under your worldview than a world in which someone shot and killed a born baby. Can you concede to that?

[Lila Rose]

I think we were talking about this sensitivity.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Can you concede whether or not that would.

[Lila Rose]

If you'll let me respond. So here's. Here's the deal. If someone. There's a burning building, right? And I think you're kind of using this analogy with this tray of babies that are frozen, right? In vitro fertilization babies.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Nobody colloquially uses the term baby to refer to human embryos, by the way.

[Lila Rose]

Human embryos, sure. They're human embryos, right? Or the born baby. Yes. I mean, under the law of familiarity. And also, if I was in a household and there was in the first room, my son, in the second room, some other person, I would pick my.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Son, I'm not asking in the law of familiarity. I'm asking under your ethical worldview with respect to rights violations, which is what.

[Lila Rose]

We'Re discussing, that the embryos are less valuable or that the person in the room that I didn't choose to save is less valuable. This is really important.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

But with respect to rights violations, I'm walking back because you're not actually.

[Lila Rose]

Can I respond?

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

You're not directly actually responding.

[Lila Rose]

I am trying to, if I may, if I may, if I want to save, in your analogy, this newborn baby from being shot, I think is what your analogy is, which is obviously horrible. Or save this tray of embryos, human embryos who are in the in vitro fertilization clinic. Yeah, I probably would pick. I would pick that newborn baby. That's not because the embryos are less valuable.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

So then you've just contradicted yourself because you said that you prefer a world in which there are less rights violations. But that would be a world in which there are more rights violations under your exact worldview because you conceded earlier that at the moment of conception we all have an equal right to life. Which means if we have an equal.

[Lila Rose]

Right to life, all of those embryos.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Have an equal rights to life. And that means they're more rights violations under the worldview in which the trey.

[Lila Rose]

Is destroyed versus, to be clear, if there was a baby and it's like, go save that baby or go save these 10 men over there, I also might pick the baby. That doesn't mean that these 10 men.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Are not asking whether or not, and.

[Lila Rose]

It doesn't mean that the 10 men don't have human rights. It's just that this is a baby right there.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

I'm not asking whether or not you have some personal more empathy towards a baby or something. I'm specifically asking because we're discussing human rights as you put it. Because I also have all of us all have a stronger conform to empathy towards women we don't have.

[Lila Rose]

Sure. And if I could just say, sorry, time's up. That's okay. Thank you, Nate. Abortion. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

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[Lila Rose]

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[Pro-Choice Activist]

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[Lila Rose]

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[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

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[Lila Rose]

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[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Add supported plan auto renews at Regular price currently $35.99 a month subject to change unless canceled. Ends 1526 terms apply.

[Lila Rose]

Is unconstitutional and should be banned.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

I'm a lawyer, so I'm actually really glad that you brought up the constitutionality. So what do you find unconstitutional about the right to an abortion? I'm just curious.

[Lila Rose]

Well, first of all, the Supreme Court has found in the reversal, the undoing of Roe v. Wade that abortion actually is not a constitutional right. So that's currently the decision of the Supreme Court. But Most importantly, the 14th Amendment to our Constitution has something called equal protection under the law for all persons. And it says that no state has the right to deprive any person of life without due process under the law.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Also, liberty and property.

[Lila Rose]

There's no due process for the unborn child in the womb. They're innocent and they're a human being just like you and I.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

True. That's true. But there's also in that clause something called the due process clause.

[Lila Rose]

Correct.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

You cannot deprive an individual life, liberty.

[Lila Rose]

Or property because the baby had due process before they're killed.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Wait, wait. Substantive due process. All right. There's two different things.

[Moderator]

Liberty.

[Lila Rose]

Right.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

We have to focus on the liberty aspect. Individuals have liberty to do things in their life. Right. That the government cannot infringe upon. One of those things is the right to marry. You cannot limit it based on race.

[Lila Rose]

Right. But we don't limit. Right. We don't have the right to.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

I'm getting there. Liberty also means that you have the liberty to decide when you become a parent.

[Lila Rose]

Right.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

That's what kind of Roe was based off of. It was the liberty to decide when individuals become parents.

[Lila Rose]

If you're pregnant, is there a child that exists?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

We had this conversation earlier. We're on the legal aspect.

[Lila Rose]

Right.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

We're going to talk about.

[Lila Rose]

Well, I want to, I want to talk about that because that's one of the reasons the pro life position is that.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

But this isn't. This is law. I want to talk about substantive law here.

[Lila Rose]

Right.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Substantive due process determined that we have a right to determine when we become parents under Roe v. Wade. The beauty about Roe v. Wade was that it gave the 50 states the opportunity to set the ceiling for where they decided viability was while also protecting women's rights to an abortion in all 50 states.

[Lila Rose]

I'm a parent of a woman.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

So it gave it back to the states while also protecting women's ability to have that decision.

[Lila Rose]

I have a question for you. If I am a parent of a one year old and I'm saying I cannot deal with this one year. I am mentally incapacitated.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

It's not the same thing.

[Lila Rose]

Am I allowed to do child neglect and just leave that one year old?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

It's not the same thing. Viability.

[Lila Rose]

Why is that not the same thing?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Because we're not. We've had this discussion on biology. The first individual.

[Lila Rose]

You just made a claim that the reason that abortion is constitutional is because parents have the right to decide when they want to be parents to the degree to the point where they could end the life of their child.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Which was the issue in Roe and later in Casey Dobbs.

[Lila Rose]

Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Why was Dobbs. Why did the Justice. Justices and Dobbs overturned Roe. What was the reasoning?

[Lila Rose]

I'd love to respond to but we gotta. It has to be give and take here. So if you're saying that a parent has the right to end the life of their child provided the baby is before viability. Is that your position? Then it would be constitutional if. Is that what you're saying?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

The point of viability is determined by the states. Anything before that.

[Lila Rose]

But why is. Why does my viability define my humanity? As an example I'm not viable on liberty interest. You and I wouldn't be able to.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Live when we begin. Become parents. Not Uncle Sam Cannot come in and.

[Lila Rose]

Say now you have to. Similarly a baby in the womb, that's their natural habitat. They're not supposed to be able to survive outside the womb. At 10 weeks they're actually in their natural environment where we all started our lives.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

But me and my wife are individuals who know our situation.

[Lila Rose]

Give them a few more weeks. They're a human being just like you and me.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Well that's when the states decide when the point of viability is.

[Lila Rose]

When a newborn baby has before.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

That is me and my wife's decision.

[Lila Rose]

A newborn baby has less consciousness than a two year old has less. Less consciousness and rational abilities than a 10 year old. We're always. You don't fully develop your brain till you're.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

That's the beauty of Roe.

[Lila Rose]

Right? That doesn't mean a mid person is more valuable than a newborn.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

But they cannot go under the floor. That's the point of Roe and the beauty. It is messy legally. I'll do your job for you. The reason why people decidedly unconditional. This is why I was. But I'll. I'll answer your question for you. The reason people are against Roe was because they said well it doesn't fit the substantive due process analysis. Obviously it is a right that the founders did not intend in there. It is in the spirit of the law to have the liberty interest to bring a child into this.

[Lila Rose]

So I'm arguing from the 14th Amendment, not from Roe or Dobbs. I'm saying that the 14th Amendment came.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

From substantive due process. Under the 14th Amendment, you're arguing no.

[Lila Rose]

State has the right to deprive anyone of life and it provides equal protection under the law.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

That that's procedural due process.

[Lila Rose]

The argument is a child in the womb has the same equal protection under the law as a newborn baby. The birth canal doesn't refer you legal rights.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

That's actually.

[Lila Rose]

Well, there have been poorly decided decisions like Roe which were overturned. Dred Scott was a poorly decided with.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

A predisposition against that legal belief. Everything in the legal field. I'm a lawyer.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Right.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Is based on subjective stuff. Pleasure though.

[Lila Rose]

Pleasure. Thank you.

[Moderator]

A couple quick questions first before we begin. Do you believe that the Constitution's inerrant.

[Lila Rose]

That you mean it's perfect the way that it is. Correct. Well, I think that what is in the Constitution is good. I think it's possible and sometimes the right thing to do to add new constitutional amendments so that the Constitution can be more clear in who it's meant to protect and the rights that it's meant to protect. And that's what happened obviously with the 13th, 14th and 15th amendment. And that's why I think historically we have back when the 14th Amendment was put in the Constitution, most of the country saw a child in the womb as a person.

[Moderator]

So I'm glad that you admit that amendments are something that make the Constitution malleable.

[Lila Rose]

Make it better. Can make it better.

[Moderator]

Right? Absolutely.

[Lila Rose]

So it's not undoing past parts of the Constitution, it's making it better. Well.

[Moderator]

There are certain clauses within those amendments that will expand upon things that were unclear or had a little bit of murky areas. And I would say that if abortion was going to be something that was a constitutional right and amendment, you'd agree that even if it is part of the right.

[Lila Rose]

My argument to be clear is that Abortion is already unconstitutional.

[Moderator]

I think you're trying to evoke an authority that wouldn't subscribe to if abortion was to be added to the Constitution.

[Lila Rose]

I'm not sure what you mean by abortion added to the Constitution. What do you mean by that?

[Moderator]

I'm saying if the right to privacy was again reinforced and bodily autonomy was added to that right to privacy.

[Lila Rose]

So just to be clear, I support the right to privacy and I happen in the back of my autonomy.

[Moderator]

People like making sure.

[Lila Rose]

Well, I support those things so those are not in conflict for me. I just don't think those things mean that I have the right to take the life of my child.

[Moderator]

Right. I can see to you that an abortion is wrong. Right. Let's just agree on the same moral framework that abortions are bad. The termination of a life is something that's bad. That doesn't necessarily mean that that needs to be illegal for all those Jordan Peterson fans out there. Jordan Peterson made this argument. Jordan Peterson specifically said that even if something is wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean that is something that should be illegal. We would all agree that killing is wrong. But we understand just war theory that there are certain instances in which killing is something that's acceptable.

[Lila Rose]

I see where you are with this and I agree with you, largely speaking.

[Moderator]

I think so when it comes to something like abortion, when it again is trying to supersede the right to bodily autonomy, this is not something that we can guarantee.

[Lila Rose]

So you're.

[Moderator]

We can't guarantee to preserve that life in favor of making a woman.

[Lila Rose]

The presumption at the under heart, at the heart of what you're saying is that a woman, without abortion, women are gonna die. I think that's a presumption. And so their rights are somehow in conflict. The rights are conflicting.

[Moderator]

I would say that women are gonna die. But going through pregnancy is not a simple process.

[Lila Rose]

It's not a simple process.

[Moderator]

It's nine months of physiological changes.

[Lila Rose]

With good medical care, you can care for both the mother and the child. And so my view is that you should not pit their rights against each other. But we should care for both mother and child both as patients. It's not that the child's more important than the mother. It's not that the mother's more important than the child. It's that we care for both patients and healthcare professionals can do that when they put in the work.

[Moderator]

That's the beauty of having a pro choice perspective is because if women want to go through that, we absolutely should be pregnant.

[Lila Rose]

But that's an Elective abortion that you're referring to, the woman is choosing it because of, you know, her own personal reasons for whatever they might be.

[Moderator]

It's not changes her body. Again, it's not a simple process. Someone doesn't want to go through those.

[Lila Rose]

Physical ability to make that to be clear, when you have a newborn child on your hands, that changes your body too. That child needs to nurse that child.

[Moderator]

This is something that you can go to an adoption facility. You don't have to go through.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Through that yourself.

[Moderator]

Once the baby is born, when you are changing your body, that is not something that here's.

[Lila Rose]

Here's the bottom line. As I see, based on policy, parents have natural rights and natural responsibilities. A parent has a natural right and responsibility. The responsibility for a mother does include letting that child grow and not killing that child before the child can survive outside of the womb.

[Moderator]

So you're saying it's a natural responsibility.

[Lila Rose]

It is. And that's how we all started our life.

[Moderator]

But it's.

[Lila Rose]

And that's because the child has a right to live. Thank you.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

So I come from the standpoint that the laws in the United States should represent the general public's opinions. And when you look at the bell curve, the majority, upwards of 70% of Americans believe that we have the right to abortions up to a certain point. Everyone has a different view on when that life becomes a life. But I think that it's so wrong to only cater to the very forest end of the bell curve when you're cutting off the rights from so many women whose opinions are valid and who might have so many different reasons to get an abortion. Economic, just. They're not in the place to have a family.

[Lila Rose]

There are often Supreme Court decisions that happen that are made that do not reflect the general poll consensus of the country. And this is also the story of part of our history, some of our worst human rights abuse as a country. If you had taken a poll of the DNA, you would have found them during the time of slavery, that they were for slavery. That was horrible, right? But you don't take a poll and say, well, you support slavery. So slavery is just so that's why we live in a democratic republic that also has a judicial system that also looks at what is constitutional, what is not. And abortion is unconstitutional because we have a 14th amendment that provides equal protection under the law for all persons, regardless of the color of your skin, developmental abilities, your sex, your race, anything. You should have equal protection under the law. And the child in the womb has the same human person as A child will be when the child's born and they deserve equal protection under the law.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

The whole reason that Roe v. Wade was put into place though is because it was determined that it was too difficult to determine exactly when a life becomes a life.

[Lila Rose]

There was no poll with Roe v. Wade to say let's legalize abortion or not. That was actually nine unelected men on the Supreme Court, seven who decided that they were going to make abortion the law of the land. And was it? It undid the law, the belief that.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Putting life starting at conception is so unfair to the women whose lives are actually being affected by these long term decisions. I understand that from your perspective, you think that a woman should have the child no matter what because it's too difficult to decide, like case to case or something.

[Lila Rose]

Well, and we're big advocates for adoption because if they feel they're not in the position to be a parent, if.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

The child is going to be born.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Without a brain, if they're ready to.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Place a child for adoption, it's not.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Fair to make a woman go through all that because it is permanent damage to a woman's body to bring that baby along for nine months. Just for a lot of cases. The reason that they choose an abortion is for their safety or for their long term health effects.

[Lila Rose]

Do you know the reason for over 90% of abortions? Why? They have nothing to do with safety, they have nothing to do with abuse, they have nothing to do with health conditions. They're purely done, they're called done for the convenience of the woman. And there's a million abortions a year. So it's hundreds of thousands of abortions that are done because the woman's laws.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Should be input in place.

[Lila Rose]

Nice to meet you.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

Nice to meet you. I do believe that the decision should be between a doctor and the woman because those are the people who have the best interest for the woman.

[Lila Rose]

I'm not really massively into debating. I'd honestly just rather hear your opinion. Thanks for being here 100%. Yeah. Because it is a complex issue and I absolutely see the value of, of your side. I do. I'm just curious then, if we ban it, how does that play out? Like, how does that look then? Let's say we ban it today. What does the next year, five years look like? It's a really good question. It's one we think and talk about all the time. And in pro life states it's ones that they're wrestling with. Right. Because they banned abortion in many states in this country already. And it looks like a few things. First of all, I think we got to double down on resources for women. There are a lot of resources that exist, but sometimes women don't know that they exist and that there's people that want to help them. A lot of women don't know, for example, that with adoption, that there are literally over a million couples who would want to adopt a newborn baby. And you can actually pick and choose the couple that would adopt. You can pick and choose how much involved you want to be in that child's life if you choose adoption or if you choose parenting. That there are a lot of organizations that want to help. In California, there are hundreds of pregnancy resource centers that provide free confidential care to women before and after birth. People need to know that this stuff exists so that they can get the help that they deserve. I don't actually disagree with that. And then also education on the trauma of abortion, the harm abortion, I think that's also part of what's important. Kind of like to balance it out. Right. Because right now it's very much like a, I guess, abortion centric narrative or like, that's the way to go. So you kind of want to balance it off by saying, hey, actually there's an alternate way of doing things. Exactly. What I'm more curious about is abortions will continue to happen. You probably agree with that, even if there's a ban. Yes, there will be. And that's the thing with any ban of anything, anything. There will be still some illegal activity or things that happen. Do you want to address that? Well, I think that we need to work on helping women never choose that. Losing free will as much as we can, we'll still choose it. For those that do, I would definitely say make sure that they get good medical care. Because at the end of the day, abortion is dangerous. Whether it's legal or illegal, abortion hurts women. The ones that choose to get abortions. There needs to be, I think, good medical care for women. And especially I'm more curious about, like, because if it's a ban, then it's illegal. So are you asking who should be criminalized? I guess, yeah. Do you think that it should be criminalized? I think the abortionists should absolutely be criminalized, 100%. The doctor. The doctor or the person that's selling abortions. Yes. So we were just talking about. You brought up the fact that you.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Think doctors should be, what was it?

[Lila Rose]

Liable if they commit abortion. Now what do. Because it's murder, in your opinion. Just like there are already statutes for illegal abortion. My question to that is what? Just to be clear, there's already statutes for illegal abortion. Yeah, but why would. There's statutes against infanticide, et cetera?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Okay.

[Lila Rose]

Anyway, but with the doctors. So do you think the doctor should.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Be sent to prison?

[Lila Rose]

Like, if this is murder, why don't we treat it like murder? It should be treated like murder because it's not. Well, then if I hired a hitman to kill my husband, I'd still go to prison even if I didn't pull the trigger. Anyone involved with it. Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Well, I don't think abortion is a.

[Lila Rose]

Bad thing, so I don't think that would ever be on the table. I understand that, but I think, yes, there should be penalties for people that kill a husband. What do you think should happen to me? I had an abortion when I was 19.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So what in your mind, in your.

[Lila Rose]

Perfect world, what would happen to me? So if abortion were banned now, I wouldn't want it to be retroactive for people that had abortions in the past? No, no, I'm talking about. Let's say I have one. Well, I think that's an important point. Like. No, no, no. If you had an abortion in a tractor, I'm talking about now, because this is who affects people now. So what do you think? If you think it's murder and you want to call it murder, why aren't you treating it like murder? So you're saying it is because what you do is actually villainize and shame women, and that has ripple effects throughout society. So in this scenario, you're saying if you. If abortion was banned and you went and had an abortion tomorrow, you're asking me what I think should be. Yeah, I want to know. Do you think I'm a murderer? Well, here's the thing I would want to know. Did you know that that was a baby that you were killing? Yeah. Well, yeah. Do you think it's a baby? I'm aware of what I'm doing. I'm making decision. What are you doing? What are you doing?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I'm not letting my pregnancy go to term.

[Lila Rose]

What do you think that is? Do you think you're ending the life of a human being? You know, I'm not here to think about that, though. What I'm talking about right now, we're talking about the constitution and law and in law. I don't even know if you can let me finish. It's important. In our criminal statute, there's different kinds of penalties depending on. Depending on how in the third trimester. It depends on killing, amount of intent. It depends a self defense. It depends on the amount of intent that goes into the act and the amount of knowledge and freedom that goes into the act. Why do you get to decide that? It's not me deciding. That would be the law. That would be the law because the government's job is to protect human rights. 51 years and the government protects children. The government's job is to protect human rights and that includes the human rights of children. Just because I'm a newborn baby, it's not a child. What is it? I'm so sick of people calling if it's not a child, what is it? When it's not a kid, it's not. What is it? If it's not a child, it's a zygote, it's an embryo, it's a fetus, it is not a child. I'm done. And I'm also done hearing you call women murderers. That embryo or that fetus has a mother and a father. Not if they want to. That's still a life. It's still a life. According to you, nobody in the science community and your life is valuable and their life is valuable and decided on when life starts. No one in the science community has decided on when life actually starts. You can open any human biology and it will tell you a moment of fertilization. You have a unique single cell embryo. That's a unique individual. But it still has to go through uterus. It has to go through all these phases. Well, and you looked a lot different when you were a newborn baby than you look now. We all look different at different phases in our human development. When you're a 10 week old embryo, you're supposed to look like a 10 week old embryo. You're not going to look like a newborn, you're not going to look like an adult. Human development will human development. You look different at different stages. Thank you. Thank you.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

You said that persons have equal protection under the law. And I would just say that like a Fetus prior to 22 weeks is not a person. I don't want to necessarily rehash.

[Lila Rose]

Not surprised you're saying that because that's the argument earlier.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Rehashed the entire argument. But the state doesn't have an interest in protecting a zygote at 10 weeks or eight weeks, for example. Because would you say that the First Amendment covers freedom of thought?

[Lila Rose]

Yes. But back to the argument prior to.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

22 weeks they don't even have the capacity to have Thoughts.

[Lila Rose]

So, like, what is that again? You know, the difference between active capacity and natural capacity. So with natural capacity, that has to do with a skill that we haven't developed yet, or we're not able to develop, but we have that natural capacity due to our human nature. Active capacity, we have the skill, we're employing it. Right.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

If you are employing. I have an active capacity to jump right now, but I'm sitting in a chair.

[Lila Rose]

That's true. So if you're. Before birth, your brain isn't fully developed yet, you have a natural capacity for reason, language and all of those things. It's not active yet. Your human value is not defined by your active capacities. Because if we defined human value by active capacities, somebody who was the fastest runner, had the highest iq, was the strongest person on the block, they would be more valuable and have more human rights. You can have a gradient disability.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

You can have a gradient of capacity but still have a binary.

[Lila Rose]

Would you agree that one is not more valuable than the other?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

I don't agree with the premise because, for example, if I rub two sticks together, a flame is going to start eventually after that ignition, it's a flame, whether it's a wildfire or a tiny spark, prior to that it's something else. So when you have.

[Lila Rose]

But if there's a spark, that's fire, right?

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Yes. And when you have a sufficient connection.

[Lila Rose]

And then there's a human embryo that's a human.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

That's not the spark. When you have sufficient connections in the brain to sustain a subjective experience, that's.

[Lila Rose]

When that spark is arguing from a position of what I would call ableism. You're saying until that person has a certain. Because you're saying that until they have.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Who does my definition accept?

[Lila Rose]

You let me finish. You'll see.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Who does my definition accept?

[Lila Rose]

Exclude.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

You're making an accusation.

[Lila Rose]

You're excluding people who have the active capacity for certain abilities. And I'm saying give me a type.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Of person that is not encompassed by.

[Lila Rose]

Well, the baby with anencephaly or hydrocephaly we were talking about earlier. But they're just.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Do you remember what I said earlier as well, which is that if someone is a partial or potential human, they should still be protected.

[Lila Rose]

The reason you have an abortion logic, though.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

No, it doesn't.

[Lila Rose]

That is a. I value an acorn.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

And I value an oak tree. They're not the same thing. And I would never sacrifice an acorn for an oak tree.

[Lila Rose]

You're saying they have the value with hydrocephaly, but then that's only after 22 weeks.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

But even though they have the same.

[Lila Rose]

Level of value, they lack the same level of value. They don't have.

[Pro-Choice Legal Expert]

Full person note.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Please return to your seat.

[Lila Rose]

Good job. You had mentioned that regardless if it.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Is illegal or not, women are still going to get abortions.

[Lila Rose]

So how do you justify the fact that they'll have far less if it's illegal? The abortion rate goes down dramatically when it's illegal. They're not going to report if they're.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Doing it illegally because there's going to be repercussions.

[Lila Rose]

So why not? We can prove that live births go up in states where abortion is illegal. That is the fact of what has happened after Dobbs C. Jackson and some of the trigger laws went into effect and some states made abortion illegal so we know more women are having babies. So even with unreported illegal abortions, live births are still going up. But do you understand people when they know that abortion is illegal or that.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Women have more difficulty using receiving abortions, they're more.

[Lila Rose]

They're going to carry babies to term because they're out of fear of abortions. Why not?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Why would you pretty much want to.

[Lila Rose]

Defund places like Planned Parenthood, places that actively help women have safe abortions and then it further prevents miscarriages in the future? What I really want to work against, and some of the work I'm trying to do now is work against this narrative that gives women so much fear about children. We are told to fear pregnancy, we're told to fear birth, we're told to fear being mothers. And our society is also tells us to celebrate abortion. And I think that's a very anti woman view and I think we should flip the script on that instead say actually our superpower as women is the ability to bring life into the world.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Our superpower of women is the power to choose.

[Lila Rose]

That's feminism. The power of choice.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

If you want to be a mother.

[Lila Rose]

Or you don't want to be a mother, that's feminism. If you want to be a stay at home mom, you want to go to work. But the difference, my friend, is when you're pregnant, you're already a mother. And we can't deny the scientific reality of that human life. If you that is a human life, a child, a son or a daughter, that has rights too. If you force women to have pregnancies and you force women to basically change their entire life, we're not forcing the men to do that. Well, I think we should force them and to do that. Okay, great. Well have you met a man, you think they're gonna do that?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

They're not gonna do that.

[Lila Rose]

They're really not. But what you're getting at, which I think is a really good point, is that we have this sort of approach in our society when it comes to sex and relationships where men and women, and a lot of times men. I don't want to just say men do this. Women do this too. Where we treat this very maybe casually. We have this all backwards. Instead of looking at sex and relationships as something really beautiful, something you commit to for life, you sacrifice for the other person, you love that other person. And then if you conceive a baby, you love that baby, you fight for that baby. I think that is the view we should be moving towards as a society. Instead of sex being casual, if you get pregnant, just have an abortion. The man abandons a woman, which is very heterosexual. Sexual view. Because we're not including queer sex in this narrative in which sometimes sex is. Well, if the queer sex brings life into the world. Either way, I think at the end of the day, we're still talking about human life. That's great. But also. But in this regards, in this argument, we're not. We're not giving people sexual education. If you go. If you go into Planned Parenthood, they not only give abortions, they also provide STD testing. They allow men into Planned Parenthood. People without health insurance, if we're talking about health care is a right. Time's up.

[Moderator]

Now choose someone from the circle to debate against for another 10 minutes. But based on a claim of their.

[Lila Rose]

Choice, there's several of you I'd love to keep talking to. So I really appreciate everyone doing this. It's awesome. I actually would love to chat more with Dana. I think she's behind. Hi, Dana.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

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[Lila Rose]

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[Pro-Choice Activist]

Cue the emu music.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

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[Pro-Choice Activist]

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[Lila Rose]

That may have been too much feeling.

[Moderator]

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[Lila Rose]

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[Moderator]

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[Lila Rose]

Insurance Company affiliates, excludes Massachusetts. I chose Dana because I, I didn't feel like we actually got to have the conversation. I got to hear from Dana about some of your position and why you believe what you believe. I didn't really feel like we got to dialogue about that a lot. So I'd love to do that more and I'd also love to hear what your claim would be that you want to talk about as well.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So my claim is that my bodily autonomy is the prevailing right in this debate.

[Lila Rose]

Thank you. And I feel like that's something that's come back up again and again in the conversation as a through theme that we're having. So I hear what you're saying. I agree that we have bodily autonomy. I have the right to not someone to come and hit me, hurt me, et cetera. But there's a very unique relationship when a woman is pregnant with another human life, with another body, and that's her son or her daughter, whether she wanted to get pregnant, intended to get pregnant when she's pregnant. There's that unique relationship that springs into existence with the existence of that new human life. And a few times it's been said today, well, the science doesn't matter. We're just having my opinion, my personal story. The science does matter a lot because science can help tell us what is real and what is not real. And science does tell us when human life begins. And it doesn't magically begin at birth. Human life begins before birth and human life begins at the moment of fertilization. And so while I'm all for bodily autonomy, I believe that our bodily autonomy as women ends where another human being's life begins. And when I'm pregnant, there's another body inside my body and they deserve the right to live. And yes, that's going to mean maybe a few months of me trying to hopefully take care of my body because it's feeding that body and then delivering that child. And if I feel I can't parent, then there's other options. But I still have a responsibility not to kill that child via an abortion.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So I'm going to tell you a story. So I am a mother. I have a 22 year old son, Amazing. Who has autism. And I became pregnant when he was around 6 years old. And I didn't want to have that child. And so I had an abortion. And I had the abortion when I was about six weeks along because it wasn't a child, it was a mass of cells. And I made that decision very distinctly. I didn't have any regrets about that decision. I actually didn't have a lot of debate about that decision. I had a child where I lived in an affair state where we didn't have an insurance mandate. So I was working really hard to get my son the help that he needed with his autism. And I did not want to be pregnant. I was in a relationship. We made a choice because. Because that was, that was the choice that I made for the mass of cells that was in my body.

[Lila Rose]

I totally hear what you're saying, and.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I need you to understand that it wasn't about what am I killing, what am I keeping alive. It was what was best for my body because I then would have had to carry that child to term. And I also want you to know that when I had my child, I am a black woman in this world, and my birth was actually very dangerous, as was many of the women in my family, because black women don't get the same type of, of health care that you receive.

[Lila Rose]

I'd love to respond to what you're saying. I think it's absolutely horrible that women, because of the color of their skin, are not getting good health care. I think that's ridiculous and horrible. So we are aligned on that. When you talk about your baby and you saw that baby as a clump of cells, you said it wasn't a baby to you, it wasn't a child, and you had that abortion, you have no regrets. Our feelings or our beliefs about other people don't change that other person, that other human's value. So I could have feelings or beliefs about my son, about a person I walk past, down the street, about anybody in this room, but that doesn't change whether they're good feelings, bad feelings, good beliefs, bad beliefs. That doesn't change that person's innate human value. And they have innate human value not because of their capacities, not because of their abilities, but because of their innate human nature that we all share. And human nature doesn't start at birth, doesn't start. Start a few weeks or even a month before birth. It starts at the beginning of a human person's life, which is fertilization.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

But that's your opinion. So there isn't actually scientific evidence that states that human life begins at conception.

[Lila Rose]

There is tremendous amount of scientific evidence. If you open any human biology textbook, you're going to find that the development process begins with fertilization, what it says. And also if you're an in vitro fertilization clinic, if you're a technician There.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Is cell multiplication, but it's not just.

[Lila Rose]

Any cell multiplication because you're made of cells, right? I'm made of cells, sure. Okay. You and I are clumps of cells, right?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

100%.

[Lila Rose]

But we're unique clumps of cells. We're individual clumps of cells that constitute a whole human. And at the moment of fertilization, you know what you got? You got a whole human. They're very small, but you have a whole human that just needs. You have a whole human at the moment of fertilization that just needs time and nourishment to grow, but has a unique distinction, but it doesn't distinct from the mother. So for example. Well, you could miscarry. Yes.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

So when I still had to be.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

But when I had my miscarriage, I had a clump of cells that then grew and then did not grow into a human child.

[Lila Rose]

I have a question for you. Did you. You said you have a son. How old is he now?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

22 or. He's 20. Oh, my goodness.

[Lila Rose]

You look great, by the way. I have a question. Did you. I'm just curious because you're talking about the baby you miscarried, the baby you had the abortion of, and you called them clumps of cells. Did you see your son when he was unborn as a clump of cell, or did you consider him, in your mind, as a. As a. As a son, as a kid?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I didn't consider him a clump of cells.

[Lila Rose]

You did or you didn't?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I did. Absolutely.

[Lila Rose]

So for you, you didn't really feel connected to even him until he was born.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So I knew that until he was actually out of my body that there was. That there was not necessarily a live birth that was going to happen because I lost a child. And I understood that having a pregnancy does not mean that you have a live birth and a baby at the end.

[Lila Rose]

That is absolutely true.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

And so for me, that choice about what is happening to my body, that's sad.

[Lila Rose]

After the miscarriage, I'm just curious. Or were you kind of felt fine afterwards? Because I had a miscarriage too. I felt deeply sad. Sad by it.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So I was.

[Lila Rose]

Women feel differently.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I was ambivalent. I was not ready to have a child. And I was going through a divorce at the time.

[Lila Rose]

I'm sorry.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Yeah, no, it sucked.

[Lila Rose]

It sucked.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

But also. But also it was okay because I was not ready to be at that. And I didn't even make that decision. My body made the decision for it.

[Lila Rose]

Here's the thing. I hear Everything you're saying. But here's the reality. You're strong. You are the one when you're pregnant. If I get pregnant, I've been pregnant now four times. I'm more powerful than that baby, right? Because I have the power to talk, walk, do whatever I'm going to do. And that baby is completely dependent on me. Right? And even when there's a newborn, totally dependent on everybody around them, if not their biological mother, whoever they're handed off to. Right? It's incredibly important for a rule of law, for justice, for human rights, that we are especially careful to protect the rights of those that are dependent and weak. Because if we live in a society that just says the strong get to choose what they want because they can, that's not a just or a loving society. And that's why I'm so pro life. I'm so pro life because that baby, you're right, they're totally dependent on the mother. They're completely unable to defend themselves. Speak for themselves. And that's all the more reason why we, as a civil and just society should care about their right to live. And by the way, help that mother. It goes two and two, right? Because you can't just care for the baby and not care for the mother. You got to care for them both.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

When that is a viable life outside of my body, 100%.

[Lila Rose]

Well, we should care. The beginning of human development. That's my position.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Yep. And human development and women who are.

[Lila Rose]

Pregnant need extra care, too. It's not like you just get care when the baby's born. You should get extra.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Yes, they do.

[Lila Rose]

Because you're carrying a new life while.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

That is still in my body. This is my body. And that is my choice about what happens to the things that are in my body.

[Lila Rose]

That is the choice. Here's a question for you. Your womb, what is the womb designed for? The woman's uterus. What's it designed for?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

It is designed to carry a clump of cells to eventually sometimes grow a fetus.

[Lila Rose]

And how did you start your life before birth? Where were you?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Oh, gosh, I don't know.

[Lila Rose]

Come on, you know. Where were you before you were born?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I was in my mother's egg sac.

[Lila Rose]

Okay, you were in your mother's egg sac. You mean you were in her uterus, right?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

No, I was in my mother's egg sac in her literal actual uterus.

[Lila Rose]

Well, that wasn't you. Yet an egg is not.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

But the egg was. The fertilizer was a part of me and then the other part of me was in my. My dad's, I guess, testicles. So I mean, it wasn't.

[Lila Rose]

It wasn't you yet, because you is when there's a whole human, right? And a unique individual.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So when I was born, then. Yes, then, then, then was me.

[Lila Rose]

But the science shows. Come on. The science shows at the moment of fertilization, spermag fusion, you have unique.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

That's when show that.

[Lila Rose]

It does show that you have unique individual genetic identity that distinct from your parents.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

The science show shows that when an egg is fell that there is cell multiplication.

[Lila Rose]

But what kind of cell multiplication? It's not like skin cells. Well, it's not skin cells. What is it?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

It becomes skin cells.

[Lila Rose]

Well, it develops its skin eventually. But what is it? What is it? Come on, what is it?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

It's a mass of cells.

[Lila Rose]

But what is it? It's a human embryo, right? Well, yes, that's developing rapidly.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

But it is a clump of cells.

[Lila Rose]

But we already said we are clumps of cells. So you're kind of using that pejoratively like, oh, you're a clump, clump of cells. You can be aborted, you can be miscarried, it doesn't matter. Who cares? You and I are clumps of cells. So it's a little dehumanizing. You're being a little dehumanizing.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Yes, I am being dehumanizing because it is a clump of cells.

[Lila Rose]

But we are clumps of cells. We already. You acknowledge that.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

So you're not wanting to dehumanize us, right? Why wouldn't you dehumanize us?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Actually, outside of my body, there are no rights, because if there were my friends.

[Lila Rose]

But I keep asking you why and you keep saying just because in your body, why does that happen?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

There would already be laws on the books. And currently there are no laws on the books that say that anything that happens before that birth means that they are not actually lies.

[Lila Rose]

That's actually inaccurate. So even in states like California, there's such a thing. There has been such a thing until recently last two years as illegal abortions. Are you aware of that? So even in states that are blue states, there are illegal abortions where it says yes before birth. There is a. This is a person that has some rights and we're going to protect them. And similarly, if you're. So that's the legal medical one. Other example, it's about the medical procedure. Here's another example. Scoffers. Scott Peterson. He killed his pregnant wife, Lacy and their unborn son. Connor. Connor, in your view, was just a clump of cells. He wasn't burned yet, but his dad killed him. Should he have been penalized for killing both his wife and the pregnant part of his wife? The baby, the boy, his son. Connor?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

No.

[Lila Rose]

So you think Scott Peterson should have got off scot free for killing his eight month old unborn son?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Scott Peterson should have been penalized for killing his live wife, but not Connor.

[Lila Rose]

Connor had no rights.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Connor was not alive.

[Lila Rose]

So if I Connor her body. So if I'm a woman.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So if a woman and was not a human being with rights on this planet.

[Lila Rose]

This is very dark because you're saying if a woman is pregnant and her boyfriend slips drugs into her drink to force an abortion on her, she wants to have this baby, he puts dust in her drinks. Would you say that there should be no penalties for that man and what.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

He did to her procedure against the mother?

[Lila Rose]

But you just said the baby is not born yet.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

It drinks the mother's body. Not against that.

[Lila Rose]

What if it.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

That child does not have rights?

[Lila Rose]

It's just a drug designed to kill the baby. It's just designed to kill the baby.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

In her womb, but it's designed to harm the tissue that is in her body because that's her body.

[Lila Rose]

So you're saying it would have been wrong. Scott Peterson should have been given penalties.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

For killing Connor, for harming Laci, but.

[Lila Rose]

Not for harming Connor.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

For harming Laci.

[Lila Rose]

So if a man, if Connor is.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

A part of Lacey, then it's harming Lacey.

[Lila Rose]

So if a man kills his girlfriend's unborn baby, he should not be penalized for killing the unborn baby, only for harmed in some way harming her. Thank you.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

[Lila Rose]

I mean, I thought it was great. I really appreciated everyone coming and giving it their best. I mean, I think we all tried to have conversations that were meaningful and I mean, I think this is the most important issue that we're facing as a country. I thought it was really interesting myself as a mother to talk to another mother who's on the other side of this. I was disappointed though, that I didn't hear any arguments I hadn't heard before. Just doing this activism for seven years. I wasn't gonna change her mind and she wasn't gonna change my mind, which is often the frustration going into these. Do you need me to be PG13 or no? Okay.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Cause I think Lila's a.

[Lila Rose]

She is okay with holding a 10 year old down and making them give birth like she's gross. That's what I think of Lila. There were some women that shared that they had had abortions. Obviously, that can be really raw. I think that goes to one of the things that we try to spread awareness about, which is that abortion does hurt women, that abortion leaves trauma.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Honestly, I wanted to swing. I really wanted to swing. Your whole lack of empathy and you telling me that my child should be standing right here. Like, I promise you, we could have gotten Jerry Springer real quick if y' all allowed it. You absolutely know nothing of this experience, which is why I like that a lot of the black and brown women really got in her face about that.

[Lila Rose]

She felt like she had no choice. She was saying, I was drug addicted or she. I don't remember all the details of her story, but if you felt like you had to have this abortion because of domestic violence and poverty, is that really a choice?

[Pro-Choice Activist]

So I firmly believe that Dana and.

[Lila Rose]

Zeke were the strongest debaters in this. Mason's really well informed. Mason's really smart.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

Two that really stood out to me were cece and Dana. Ms. Dana, hands down. Just to see someone who had been through what I had been through, but older and having that wisdom, having that patience, being able to have an opportunity to push back against a narrative that is harmful to people with uteruses, I think is always a valuable.

[Lila Rose]

Is there a middle ground where abortion is okay? In some circumstances, I would say no. These are lives, human lives, and it's life or death for that child.

[Pro-Choice Activist]

I don't know that there will ever be a middle ground, because what I'm talking about is health care, and what she's talking about is her emotions. Honestly and truly, yes, we can find a middle ground, but there has to be a lot less shaming from pro life people, because I'm not. I don't care what you say. I'm not a murderer for choosing myself. And honestly and truly, I believe it was her children in this situation. She'd have a completely different tone. They often do.

[Lila Rose]

I think it's incredibly important to have conversations with people that you disagree with. And so I'm really grateful for everyone that came today, and I'd love to do it again.

[Moderator]

Don't forget to subscribe to Surrounded wherever.

[Pro-Choice Advocate]

You get your podcasts so that you.

[Moderator]

Don'T miss an episode. And if you want to watch the video version of Surrounded, subscribe to Jubilee on YouTube.