Mehdi Hasan vs 20 Far Right Republicans

Summary

Podcast Summary: Surrounded – Mehdi Hasan vs. 20 Far Right Republicans Episode: Mehdi Hasan vs. 20 Far Right Republicans
Release Date: July 20, 2025
Host/Author: Jubilee Media
Duration: Approximately 79 minutes

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Introduction

In this episode of Surrounded, hosted by Jubilee Media, progressive journalist Mehdi Hasan engages in a high-stakes debate with 20 Far Right Republicans. The format challenges one brave participant to face opposing views in a raw and unfiltered conversation aimed at sparking connection and challenging assumptions.

Debate Overview

The central themes of the debate revolve around Donald Trump's policies, immigration, constitutional interpretation, and the Gaza-Israel conflict. The discussion is intense, with both sides presenting strong arguments, albeit often interrupting and challenging each other's credibility.

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1. Donald Trump: Pro-Crime and Pro-Criminal Claims

Connor initiates the debate with a claim that Donald Trump is pro-crime and pro-criminal, citing his pardoning actions related to the January 6th events.

• Connor (01:19): "My first claim is Donald Trump is pro crime and pro criminal."

Mehdi Hassan counters by questioning the definition of being "pro-crime" and emphasizes that pardons are selective and situational.

• Mehdi Hassan (01:24): "I would just like to ask what makes someone pro crime versus, you know, anti crime?"

The debate intensifies as Connor lists specific individuals pardoned by Trump, arguing that releasing violent criminals indicates a pro-crime stance.

• Connor (03:02): "He pardoned all of them. Are you okay with that?"

Mehdi maintains that one pardon doesn't define Trump's overall stance and suggests reframing the conversation to address broader issues of tribal warfare in the U.S.

• Mehdi Hassan (04:23): "We're at... tribal warfare. That's where we're at in the US."

Connor persists, highlighting multiple pardons and their implications on law enforcement and public safety.

• Connor (02:58): "You're okay with that?"

Notable Quote:

• Connor (17:25): "Then your argument will fall apart because it's not just one example."

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2. Donald Trump: Defying the Constitution

Connor shifts focus to argue that Trump is defying the U.S. Constitution by undermining several amendments.

• Connor (22:38): "My next claim is that Donald Trump is defying the Constitution."

Mehdi Hassan responds by questioning the relevance of the Constitution in contemporary governance and suggests that certain constitutional protections may inadvertently enable criminal behavior.

• Mehdi Hassan (22:45): "I don't really care, to be quite frank, because in regards... to the Constitution..."

The discussion delves into specific amendments, with Connor asserting that Trump is violating the First, Fourth, Fifth, Fourteenth, and potentially the Twenty-Second Amendments.

• Connor (39:40): "Donald Trump's plan for Gaza is ethnic cleansing."

Mehdi Hassan challenges the interpretation, emphasizing a need to understand the original context and intent of the constitutional provisions.

• Mehdi Hassan (33:18): "I'm going to be as respectful about this as possible, but the truth is your claim is completely bad faith."

Notable Quotes:

• Connor (22:45): "Donald Trump is defying the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, the 14th Amendment..."
• Mehdi Hassan (33:02): "You don't believe in democracy? No, I don't."

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3. Immigration: Impact on America

Connor advocates that immigrants are beneficial to the American economy, citing entrepreneurship, tax contributions, and innovation.

• Connor (44:57): "Immigrants are 80% more likely to be entrepreneurs than native-born Americans..."

Mehdi Hassan counters by expressing concerns over job competition, wage suppression, and housing shortages exacerbated by immigration, particularly in states like California.

• Mehdi Hassan (45:02): "People like me and everyone around here, we cannot find homes or even get jobs within our own fields..."

The conversation touches upon the complexities of immigration policies, including the H1B visa program and its effects on the labor market.

• Connor (47:56): "Instead of statistics... immigrants are more likely to pay in taxes than take out in benefits..."

Notable Quotes:

• Connor (46:14): "Unemployment is at a record low right now..."
• Mehdi Hassan (52:10): "They are not able to receive government benefits..."

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4. Gaza-Israel Conflict and Allegations of Ethnic Cleansing

Connor accuses Trump of orchestrating ethnic cleansing in Gaza, labeling it as a war crime under international law.

• Connor (69:11): "He said, 'we're going to clean out the Gaza Strip.'... That is the literal definition of ethnic cleansing..."

Mehdi Hassan engages by questioning the motives behind such actions, discussing the historical and geopolitical factors, including Iranian influence and the role of Hamas.

• Mehdi Hassan (70:07): "Why do you think Trump is saying this?..."

The debate highlights mutual agreements on the humanitarian crisis while diverging on the responsibility and solutions.

• Connor (73:28): "Histories show minorities have contributed significantly, yet policies harm them..."

Notable Quotes:

• Connor (69:11): "That is the literal definition of ethnic cleansing according to a UN Definition."
• Mehdi Hassan (80:09): "I would think ethnic cleansing is when you're killing off a large part of an ethnic group."

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5. Birthright Citizenship and Constitutional Amendments

Mehdi Hassan introduces the topic of birthright citizenship, advocating for its removal to prevent family separations and unlawful immigration.

• Mehdi Hassan (87:57): "We should restrict the automatic citizenship of anybody who's born here..."

Connor defends the 14th Amendment, emphasizing its historical context and the principles of citizenship it upholds, arguing against altering long-standing constitutional rights.

• Connor (90:18): "The 14th Amendment... codified what was already a principle in American and English law..."

The debate underscores the tension between constitutional originalism and modern interpretations of immigration and citizenship.

• Notable Quote:
  • Connor (94:07): "But the 14th Amendment also says if you're born here, you're automatically a citizen."

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Connor expressing disappointment over the aggressive and often unsubstantiated positions taken by some of the far-right participants, labeling them as endorsing white genocide and undermining American values.

• Connor (98:34): "I'm disappointed that I had to sit across from people who believe in white genocide..."

Mehdi Hasan reflects on the challenges of engaging in productive debates amidst deep-seated ideological divides and the importance of maintaining respectful discourse.

• Mehdi Hassan (99:00): "You just seem offended to be... very foreign of a concept."

Notable Closing Quote:

• Connor (100:01): "Free speech doesn't mean you need to give credibility or oxygen or a platform to people who don't agree in human equality."

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Key Takeaways

• Pro-Crime Allegations: The debate highlighted differing interpretations of political actions, specifically Trump's pardons, and their implications on crime rates and law enforcement.

• Constitutional Integrity: A significant portion of the discussion focused on whether Trump's policies and actions were in violation of the U.S. Constitution, with emphasis on several amendments.

• Immigration's Dual Impact: The conversation showcased the economic benefits immigrants bring versus the challenges they pose in terms of job competition and wage suppression.

• Gaza-Israel Dynamics: The debate brought forward complex geopolitical issues, with accusations of ethnic cleansing and discussions on responsibility and humanitarian impact.

• Citizenship and Legal Frameworks: The debate underscored the importance of constitutional principles in defining citizenship and the ongoing debate over birthright citizenship.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Surrounded presented a fierce and often contentious debate between Mehdi Hasan and representatives of the Far Right Republicans. The discussions shed light on the polarized perspectives surrounding Trump's policies, immigration, constitutional rights, and international conflicts. While the debate was marked by interruptions and strong rhetoric, it successfully highlighted the deep ideological divides prevalent in contemporary American politics.

Subscription Note: To stay updated with more such engaging debates, subscribe to Surrounded on your preferred podcast platform or watch the video version on Jubilee Media’s YouTube Channel.

Transcript

[Mehdi Hassan]

My family lineage is settlers from the 1500s.

[Connor]

Colonialists.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, colonialists.

[Connor]

You don't look very Native American to me.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I am Native American. Whites are Native Americans. What are you talking about?

[Connor]

You're not. You're a little bit more than a far right Republican.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hey, what can I say?

[Connor]

I think you could say I'm a fascist.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, I am.

[Connor]

Listen to me. I am an immigrant. I'm speaking from personal experience.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Get the hell out.

[Connor]

I don't even like I should. Get the hell out.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes.

[Connor]

Why?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't want you here. From Jubilee Media, this is the Surrounded podcast, where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. Today's guest is the progressive journalist Mehdi Hassan, and he's debating 20 far right conservatives. Mehdi will debate them one on one until they are voted out by their peers and replaced by someone new. Let's get into it.

[Connor]

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[Mehdi Hassan]

I would just like to ask what makes someone pro crime versus, you know, anti crime?

[Connor]

I think when you're soft on criminals, when you let criminals out of prison, when you pardon people who have assaulted police officers, you're pro criminal. Donald Trump pardoned almost 1600 people who were involved in January 6th. I think 600 of them had been charged with assaulting a police officer or obstructing a police officer. 170 had pled guilty to assaulting a police officer. 70 had pled guilty to assault with a deadly weapon. J.D. vance said, we're not going to pardon the violent criminals from January 6th. Donald Trump pardoned all of them. Are you okay with that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I would say January 6th is a very special case. I would say it's a very. It's almost like a climax point in history. I would just phrase the question this way right now. In the LA protests, if they were to just, for example, they were to rush the Capitol of la, I mean, they'd have to move over all the homeless people living in tents on the steps of the Capitol. But if they were managed to get into the Capitol and they were just protesting, you know, peacefully, let's say police officers were rushing them in. They were letting Them in and saying, hey, you guys can go in. Like, we have many testimonies that say.

[Connor]

What about the violent ones?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, violent ones like.

[Connor]

Like a man named David Dempsey. A judge, a Reagan appointed judge sentenced him to 20 years in prison. He stomped on police officers heads. The judge said his conduct was exceptionally egregious. He attacked police officers with flagpoles and pepper spray. Donald Trump pardoned him. There's a man named Daniel Rodriguez. He got 12 years in prison for taking a stun gun and tasing a police officer officer in the neck and giving him a heart attack. The judge said he was a one man army of hate. Donald Trump pardoned him. Does that not make Trump pro criminal? He's letting violent criminals out of prison.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I would say no, it doesn't make him pro criminal. 1.

[Connor]

You're okay with that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I did not say that. I said that one pardon against somebody.

[Connor]

It was 1600 pardons. 600 of those were one example that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You just gave me.

[Connor]

I can give you more. Okay, fine, fine.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'll say the exact same thing every single time.

[Connor]

Then your argument will fall apart because it's not just one example. If I keep going.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Go for it then.

[Connor]

Okay, Shane Jenkins got seven years in prison for nine criminal offenses. Attacking police with a deadly weapon, destroying government property.

[Mehdi Hassan]

How do pardon pardons that probably shouldn't have happened turn into pro crime?

[Connor]

So you've agreed that they shouldn't have been pardoned.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Sure, but that wasn't. Your claim was January 6th. Your claim was Trump is pro crime.

[Connor]

Yeah, because he pardons criminals.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, he pardoned.

[Connor]

Let's talk about non generous ex people. Okay, he's pardoned people like Paul Wolczak recently, who took millions of dollars from his own employees, was sentenced to tax crimes, had to pay back $4 million. Trump pardoned him. He bought himself a $2 million yacht. Why is he pardoning criminals like that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, I don't know. I don't think you should. I don't think really presidential pardons should be a thing at all. But I don't agree. I don't think that. All right, pause. That means something. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

[Connor]

Thanks. Hey, how's it going, Maddie? What is it, Maddie?

[Mehdi Hassan]

You're from northern uk?

[Connor]

I guess I'm from London. North London.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, fair enough. What's your ethnic background, if you don't mind asking?

[Connor]

My parents are from India.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, perfect. Just getting premise here. First of all, I want to say.

[Connor]

The premise of Donald Trump being pro crime.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No no, no. I want to concern myself with why you care about what's happening in the US first and foremost. Secondly, I want to say this. The argument.

[Connor]

Should people who live in the US not care about us?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Let's not interrupt each other.

[Connor]

Because I'm.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I have this thing. Like, people know I have this thing. I have to stay calm. Okay, so. Okay, here's the thing. I am happy that he released J6. In fact, so much so that I was prepared to protest if he didn't. Okay, so when you say I, are you okay that he's pro crime? Sure. Because you know what? We're changing the definition of what crime is, first and foremost.

[Connor]

You don't think stomping on police officers heads is a crime?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't think it's no longer a relevant conversation anymore. You're arguing. No, it's not. Because you know what? Okay. Have you seen the US in the last four or five years? Yes, I've BLM protests. Have you seen. Okay, I myself have been involved in these protests. I've seen egregious things. Things that you couldn't even imagine. So we haven't done. To conservatives. It's not about that. It's about tribal warfare. That's where we're at in the US I don't know where you're at in the uk. You're from India, so I don't really.

[Connor]

I'm not from India.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Are you. Sorry. Your parents are from. Yeah.

[Connor]

So I'm an American.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You have your own state.

[Connor]

I'm an American.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You know, you're an American citizen. Okay, fair enough. I don't know how you got that, but fair enough. Here's the thing.

[Connor]

Are you an American citizen?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Absolutely. But here's.

[Connor]

I'm not sure how you got that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay. Born here.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Born here in my. My family lineage is settlers from the 1500s. So I have some stake in the claim here. Okay, but you're a little different.

[Connor]

But you're a descendant of immigrants. Settlers.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I didn't know.

[Connor]

Colonialists.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, colonial.

[Connor]

You don't look very Native American to me.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Native. I am Native American. Whites are Native Americans. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? Whites are Native Americans.

[Connor]

Really? I. I think what was before the 1500s?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think you're getting confused with.

[Connor]

I don't mind going on a tangent. What was happening before the 1500? I think you're getting what was happening before the 1500s.

[Mehdi Hassan]

There was indigenous people here that came here from.

[Connor]

You know what indigenous means?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Listen, before indigenous people come from somewhere else, why do you ask a question if you're going to interrupt?

[Connor]

I'm not sure if you know what the meaning of indigenous means.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I do know what it means. It means they came here first. Right. They came here from Asia by way of land bridge. Have an argument with Neil DeGrasse Tyson or anybody else about that. I don't care.

[Connor]

Is he in America?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I genuinely don't care. Yes, he is. Okay, so checking. My point is. My point is. Okay.

[Connor]

Nothing to do with crime. So far you've agreed with me that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

These people are derailing. Dude. I'm like, I'm trying.

[Connor]

You literally sat down and asked me where I'm from. I think you derailed this conversation from the get go.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But I'm not offended.

[Connor]

I'm just wondering what it has to do with crime.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Curious.

[Connor]

We're going to talk about immigration. Don't worry. Later on you can come back. I hope right now you're doing a very bad job of making the case that he's not pro crime.

[Mehdi Hassan]

He's got a round of applause. I could probably get another one actually, if I asked for it. So. So I don't think I'm just how.

[Connor]

You get rounds of applause. You sit in a room with 20 people who agree with you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Wow.

[Connor]

Amaz. I'm amazing. That was good.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You know what? I'm.

[Connor]

20 people agree with you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Outraged. Right? Wow. This is. This is great.

[Connor]

I love it.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do I have to say anything at this point or. You keep going.

[Connor]

Please make your claim.

[Mehdi Hassan]

My claim is that I don't care if it's pro crime.

[Connor]

You want to go back to the topic of conversation? We agree then. So he's pro crime.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I have a question for you, though. Do you care on the opposite side of the spectrum?

[Connor]

Yes.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do you care about law being administered to the opposite side?

[Connor]

Yes. I think anyone who assaults a police officer shouldn't be pardoned. I think that Donald Trump shouldn't have pardoned nine Republican members of Congress who were convicted of crimes. And I don't think Joe Biden should commit. I don't think Democrats should pardon Democrats.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Fair. But I don't think you understand where we are in the US Though.

[Connor]

I think I do.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, because you're arguing for the position of like a US that doesn't exist anymore.

[Connor]

We're headed towards so nihilism, no laws, nothing matters.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It's not about everyone's program. It's not about that. It's that conservative. Listen, conservatives for too long have been playing it safe. They've been playing by the law. They've been playing by the law. Yes, they have.

[Connor]

Maybe you missed the Bush presidency. Did you live here during the Bush years?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Conservatives are played by the law.

[Connor]

George W. Bush. Nor did Ronald Reagan.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Let's be. Let's be respectful to you. Let's. Let me.

[Connor]

I'm not sure you've been that respectful, but.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, I'm trying to bring it back. So let's both bring it back. Okay? I'm conservative. Okay.

[Connor]

Really?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Let me tell you this. We do play it too safe. We've been playing it by the book for too long. At this point, gloves are off. Right? The left has made their point. They're willing.

[Connor]

The police force in Washington. The left?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Are you kidding me? The left. Are you.

[Connor]

Are you police officers?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Look, okay, look at L. A, right here. You think those stand down. Those stand down.

[Connor]

The LAPD are a bunch of liberal Marxists.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, but I think they listen to liberal Marxists who tell them what to do. I think they listen to who signs their paychecks.

[Connor]

You do Lots of little diversions. We both agree Donald Trump's pro crime. You're just fine with it. No. That's what you said so far for about five minutes.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't agree with your definition.

[Connor]

What's your definition of crime?

[Mehdi Hassan]

It doesn't.

[Connor]

Stomping on a police officer's head is not a crime. That's your definition of crime? As the Native American.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I am Native American.

[Connor]

If you say so.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So going back to the topic at hand, we have different definitions of crime. Because you're talking about.

[Connor]

There's a criminal code in this country. It's called the U.S. criminal Code.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You know what? Let's focus on what we agree on. I'm sure you and I actually agree on all.

[Connor]

We agree that people shouldn't stomp on police officers heads. Can we agree on that? If you don't agree on that, then I really think this conversation is kind of.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, because first of all, you're saying what, that the police have the authority, that they're given the authority. I don't accept the authority that's been.

[Connor]

Given by liberal position. The conservative pro police.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Then you don't know what a real. Hey, listen, you're redefined with Juggernauts right now. I'm telling you right now, you are going to be blown. I mean, if you think.

[Connor]

Yeah, if we're going to struggle with the English language for the next couple.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hours, then what you're up against right now. 100. Yeah, newsflash. The conservatives are liberal to me. Okay? Neocons Libertarians, all those mainstream people there might as well be leftist to me. Okay? That's how far to the right I am. Do you understand my position?

[Connor]

So when you kind of guessed it.

[Mehdi Hassan]

When you signed up, when you say you know about obeying police, why would I give the authority to police? Do you know here? Do you know here in America?

[Connor]

Do you think you don't know bargaining? Nine members of Congress. Do you know committed financial crimes?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I can remember.

[Connor]

Are you pro financial crime? You pro financial crime?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Thomas Timbo is. Pause.

[Connor]

I think the people who clapped you have voted you out.

[Mehdi Hassan]

All right, head back to your seat. You've been voted out by the majority.

[Connor]

Nice to meet you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So I'm gonna be as respectful about this as possible, but the truth is your claim is completely bad faith. You do not care about being anti crime. You yourself are pro crime. Your side is pro crime because you're a progressive.

[Connor]

How am I pro crime?

[Mehdi Hassan]

So I'll give you an example. Right? So your side, not Donald Trump, has passed a series of laws in California. Let's go with California. It's where we are right now. It's where I'm from. I don't know, are you from California or. Okay, so in California, for example, the state legislature, completely progressive, just passed a law that limits sex offender registration to. To 10 years. It was life before. That's pro crime. The legislature in California, which is progressives again, has passed a law that says the voter induced three strike law is no longer absolute. If someone attempt murders someone stabs someone on three separate occasions, a judge now does not have to give them life. That's a progressive law. That is not. That is pro crime. You support that, don't you?

[Connor]

I actually don't support sex offenders coming off a list. I think they should be on for life. Hold on. You and I both agree that sex offending is a bad thing, especially child sex offending. Right?

[Mehdi Hassan]

It seems like you and I agree on that.

[Connor]

I agree on that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Especially trip California does.

[Connor]

So I'm not here to debate the legislative California. I'm here to debate Donald Trump being pro crime. And I'm saying that Donald Trump was friends with Ghislaine Maxwell when Ghislaine Maxwell, who's the worst child sex trafficker of our lifetime. She's serving under 20. Do you know Ghislaine Maxwell?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, she's actually not. Jeffrey Epstein's the worst sex traffic.

[Connor]

He's dead. I'm talking about people alive right now.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It's interesting though, you didn't use his name, right? Wouldn't he be the one who did this?

[Connor]

Oh, great. I'm glad you brought up Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein, before he died, did an interview with Michael Wolf. He's on tape. I don't know if you've heard the tape. He says, my closest friend was Donald Trump. I was his closest friend. Elon Musk. I'm not sure if you've heard of him. He tweeted recently that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files. And Ghislaine Maxwell, who was the right hand woman of Jeffrey Epstein when she was on trial for child sex offending, which you and I are opposed to, Donald Trump stood up and said, good luck to her. I wish her well. So, yeah, that makes him pro crime and pro criminal. If he's being soft on child sex.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Trafficking like Epstein, he's.

[Connor]

No, I'm saying he was friends. He was friends with Epstein. You haven't seen the videos. They danced together, partied together.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Epstein said, I was a guy he knows. He's not supported the pedophilia part. The only people supporting pedophiles, actually. True.

[Connor]

Trump gave a speech about 20 years ago ago where he said, epstein's a great guy. He loves young women. A lot of them are very young. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, laugh, laugh. So, yeah, I think he's pro crime and pro criminals.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do you have any friends who are criminals?

[Connor]

Not that I know of. Certainly not child sex offenders. No.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do you if it came. No, of course not.

[Connor]

Okay, so we're both in agreement again.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So why you came out tomorrow. If it came out tomorrow that one of your friends was a child sex trafficker.

[Connor]

You know what I do.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You'd stop being friends with them?

[Connor]

Yes, but I wouldn't say.

[Mehdi Hassan]

And then I'd go on TV and I would say, oh, look, Mr. Hasan was friends with this guy 10 years ago.

[Connor]

Therefore he said, I wish them well when they're on trial. Wouldn't you ever go at me for that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

You wish you well. You wish your friend well on trial.

[Connor]

Yeah. Child sex trafficker. Would you mean that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I wouldn't wish someone well. But that's your gotcha. That's your gotcha.

[Connor]

It's a pretty big gotcha.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You wished a friend.

[Connor]

Pretty big gotcha.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay.

[Connor]

He praised the woman.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What you're trying to do right now is you're trying to get to Donald Trump.

[Connor]

What about the first level Elon Musk says his name.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What's his policy?

[Connor]

Oh, you want to talk policies?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes.

[Connor]

So when he left office in 2020, he left behind the highest murder rate for over 100 years.

[Mehdi Hassan]

He left behind the highest murder rate. That is the most bad faith claim you've actually made.

[Connor]

No, no, no. It's a fact from the cdc.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You know what? Here's why it's bad faith.

[Connor]

I'm going to finish a sentence and then you can come back in.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You're just lying. Donald Trump.

[Connor]

Can I finish the sentence?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Donald Trump does not cause the murder rate. Murder is a state level. Is more responsible for the murder rate than Donald Trump.

[Connor]

That's hilarious. So Donald Trump's not responsible murder rate, but other politicians who are Democrats.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes, because it's state level. That's like saying no, that's. No, I'll say Republicans are too. State governors who are soft on crime are the ones that are responsible.

[Connor]

Let me finish a sentence. When Donald Trump left office in 2020, between 2019 and 2020, according to data from the CDC, from the FBI, from Pew Research, the 30% increase in the murder rate between 2019 and 2020, it was the single biggest jump in the murder rate since 1905. Who's doing?

[Mehdi Hassan]

He's pro crime and pro criminal. Who's doing the murdering?

[Connor]

The murderers.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So aren't they responsible?

[Connor]

But why did it go up on his watch?

[Mehdi Hassan]

What?

[Connor]

Why did it go up on his watch? That's a real bad. At fighting crime.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That's a real hard one to figure out. Right. We shut down the whole economy during COVID We told everyone they couldn't go unless it was to violently protest. We told people that if a cop tries to arrest you, that cop's probably going to get charged with murder.

[Connor]

No, I think the pandemic had a lot to do with it. The pandemic didn't finish in 20. The pandemic didn't finish in 2020.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do you apply the murder rate?

[Connor]

We're going to break the water back. You guys blame Joe Biden for crime for years.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What? Joe Biden actively induces policies that are pro crime. I'm asking. So does Donald Trump name the policies?

[Connor]

I'll name one right now.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I've asked you for like 10 minutes.

[Connor]

I'll name one right now. No, you haven't. Actually. You talked about California legislatures. He pardoned violent criminals. He then went down to commit other crimes. You don't think releasing violent crimes into.

[Mehdi Hassan]

The pardon is the one time thing? What's his policy he has pushed? Name a law he has.

[Connor]

A pardon is a one time thing. A policy is not one time.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That's like Jimmy Carter pardoned the draft.

[Connor]

You guys may want to dod January 6th, the pardon.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm not judging that.

[Connor]

Then deal with that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm going to write. Do you agree with Jimmy Carter? Pardon the pardon. Does that mean his policy.

[Connor]

I don't support Jimmy Carter. Do you support, do you support the pardoning of people who went on to be prosecuted for sexually abusing a seven year old child, illegal gun possession, reckless homicide?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Pardon someone for sexually abusing, for rebelling against the government that they believe had rigged elections? That's what he pardoned them for. He didn't pardon them for sexual child abuse.

[Connor]

But they were criminals who committed those crimes. He let them out. So that means the crime rate goes up.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You say they're criminals because they did the crime. Right. Would you extend that to illegal immigrants? That they're all criminals because they committed a crime? I have a feeling you're positioning the Supreme Court.

[Connor]

Supreme Court. We're going to talk about immigration, that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Someone who's illegally entered the United States not a criminal, but someone in the capital is not.

[Connor]

According to the Supreme Court of United States.

[Mehdi Hassan]

The Supreme Court has said that anyone who enters the United States.

[Connor]

And we can, we can jump to.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Can I get the case jumped at 20?

[Connor]

You want to get the case?

[Mehdi Hassan]

The case. The case. Site, please. For you, said the Supreme Court.

[Connor]

The citation of the case.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes. The entering the United States illegally is not a crime.

[Connor]

It's called Arizona vs United States 2012. Go look it up.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Pause, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. I really just more want to get an understanding. When you say pro criminal, what do you mean?

[Connor]

I mean that when confronted with people who've committed criminal acts, Donald Trump has been either soft on them, friendly with them, pardon them, and of course, let's not forget, I mean, we've got five minutes left. I'm surprised hasn't come up earlier. He's a convicted criminal himself sitting in the White House.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, I want to make sure I understand you correctly because I don't want to straw man you. You're saying, I appreciate that every time that he's been confronted.

[Connor]

Not every time. Don't say the words every time.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Most times.

[Connor]

A lot of the time.

[Mehdi Hassan]

A lot of the times, yes. He's leaned towards criminal activity.

[Connor]

I didn't say criminal activity. He, I mean, he has committed crimes, indicted 88 different criminal offenses in four different jurisdictions by five different grand juries. He was convicted himself on 34 different criminal offenses by a jury of his peers. But let's part that for a moment separate to his own crimes. When confronted with the crimes of others or the alleged crimes of others. For example, a Chinese crypto billionaire, Justin sun, who was being investigated of market manipulation. Trump dropped the case, invited him to the golf course, the White House, plenty of examples. And the guy. $70 million in Trump's crypto.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What I want to ask you, this.

[Connor]

Is pro crime, in my view.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Is it possible? Because, remember, the burden of proof's on you. Right. You have to prove, is it possible that all these are these things that he's done that supposedly make him pro crime? Is there's another reason for the. For the doing. There's other justification. For example, let me. Let me. Give me. Give an example, then you can rebut it. The J6.

[Connor]

Yes.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Is it possible that he could have done this to unite the country, to move past, to go to a new chapter? If it's even possible? I think you would have to admit that there's another possibility. Therefore, he's not pro crime. At least. Impossibility.

[Connor]

So let me agree and disagree. Yep. Okay. So I agree with you that the intent could be different. I don't think Donald Trump was sitting there saying, how can I increase the level of murders? Let me release some murderers. I'm not saying he did that January 6th. I don't think he was trying to unite the country. That's where we disagree. That's bullshit. In fact, he divided the country further. But intent doesn't really matter to my claim. If he's releasing violent criminals.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Wait, wait, wait.

[Connor]

It doesn't matter.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Does it matter?

[Connor]

No. He's pro crime and pro criminal.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, but that's a big indictment to say pro crime. That means he's.

[Connor]

If I'm confronted with crime, I'm fronted. Well, he is, because, for example, I gave him.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, no, no. It could.

[Connor]

I finished.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Forgive me.

[Connor]

Your friend earlier, your ally said, where has he done stuff that's increased the crime rate? I'm telling you, people have been pardoned who have been convicted on multiple other crimes. These people who he pardoned had previous criminal records. They were not just some folks chilling around. Go. We're to take over our country. We're opposed to rebellion. A lot of these people were already hardened criminals, militia members. He looked at those people and said, you know what? They've been convicted in many cases by Republican judges, but I'm gonna let them out. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Is it possible?

[Connor]

And if Joe Biden had done it, you'd be attacking him?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Sure. Is it possible that their conviction was part of a plea? It's like oh, shit. I can't get out of this, so I gotta take a plea deal.

[Connor]

Some of them, maybe other. Maybe others we saw with our own lying eyes on tape, battering police officers. Did you watch live on January 6.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What happened to be completely pretty novice on this? I'm more trying to target. You're saying he's pro crime? In my head just thinking this.

[Connor]

Let me finish, if I can finish one second.

[Mehdi Hassan]

If thinking this, there's a possibility that he might have had other reasons. For example, unifying the country, next chapter. Right. That that could be the reason. Therefore it's not pro crime. There was other reasons. I'm just saying that's a possibility. And if that's.

[Connor]

I'm saying it's a possibility, but I'm saying it's irrelevant because if you are releasing, knowingly releasing violent criminals out into the community, pardoning, not just releasing, then yes, you are being pro criminal. And I've interviewed police officers.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't know about that case.

[Connor]

I've interviewed police officers who have been assaulted, beaten, had to retire from the police officers, broken bones.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Can I move really quickly?

[Connor]

I'll finish very quickly. I've interviewed these police officers. They've been beaten by people who they've then seen walk off the streets and then carry on threatening them. Yes. When Donald Trump is responsible for that, you're definitely pro crime.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay. I doubt a lot of the sources.

[Connor]

But you doubt police officers who testified to being assaulted.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. So you claim that. Your main claim is that Trump pardoned some people from January 6th.

[Connor]

By the way, I was there.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I saw it all firsthand. About a football field away. There's smoke in my eyes, bloodied. It was a crazy day.

[Connor]

Were you convicted of any crimes?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, of course not. Because I didn't enter the building. You know, stay very peaceful. But your entire claim is that he parted your bets. Basically, you bring it up.

[Connor]

All you do is bring it up. Okay, let me say this. Are you okay with this pardoning of Paul Walchack, who stole money from his employees? You keep talking former members of Congress. That's my claim. He keeps pardoning criminals. That makes him.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You know who else pardoned a big criminal?

[Connor]

Go on.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hunter Biden was pardoned by his father.

[Connor]

He.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Crack cocaine.

[Connor]

He should have done that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

He had hookers there too.

[Connor]

I'm with you all. I'm with you all.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But then why don't you claim that Biden.

[Connor]

Why don't you claim that? I think Joe Biden in that instance, was pro crime. He should have done it.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, he should have done overall program because he did that.

[Connor]

No, but Joe Biden didn't just. If it was just a pardon, then you'd be fine. But I already mentioned, there's also the fact that Joe Biden wasn't actually convicted criminal in office. Trump has committed crimes. Trump hangs around with criminals. He spent much of the 80s hanging around with the New York mob. He hung around with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Well, that whole thing, I can keep going.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Jeffrey Epstein lived in West Palm beach.

[Connor]

In the area, and that's the closest.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Golf course he can go to. Do you think he's very.

[Connor]

Do you think Donald Trump is in the Epstein file?

[Mehdi Hassan]

So he paid.

[Connor]

Do you think Donald Trump is an Epstein?

[Mehdi Hassan]

As soon as Trump found out.

[Connor]

Do you think Donald Trump is in the Epstein file?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I do not.

[Connor]

Why is Elon Musk lying? Let me explain.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Let me explain this. He lived in the area, in Mar A Lago. Near Mar A Lago. So he bought obviously ticket to go in there as soon as Trump found out that Epstein had done all those bad things. Immediate ban from Marl. Immediate ban on darling.

[Connor]

Yes, it is.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes, it is.

[Connor]

Ghislaine Maxwell recruited some of the girls that were abused from Mar A Lago. So.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So listen to this.

[Connor]

From Mar A Lago. That's pretty outrageous, right?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Elon Musk tweeted that out in a fit of rage.

[Connor]

Okay. Do you really tell the truth when they're angry?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do you really think the truth comes.

[Connor]

Out when people are angry? Sometimes.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So, Cash, we might see that today. Cash Patel literally said that Elon Musk had no access to the Epstein files.

[Connor]

Keshe Patel said that Epstein killed himself. Do you agree with that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Whatever he says goes then. Yeah, I don't care.

[Connor]

You do.

[Mehdi Hassan]

He knows more information than I do.

[Connor]

A lot of MAGA people are upset. He knows more information than I do.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But here's the actual claim.

[Connor]

Suddenly people are trying to vote you out because you said you agree with Keshe Patel on Epstein.

[Mehdi Hassan]

He knows more information than I do. Pause. That's time. Please return to your seat.

[Connor]

Good to meet you. Yeah. Take care.

[Mehdi Hassan]

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[Connor]

This episode is brought to you by Avid Reader Press. Legendary investor Ray Dalio's new book, How.

[Mehdi Hassan]

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[Connor]

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[Mehdi Hassan]

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[Connor]

Available now wherever books are sold. My next claim is that Donald Trump is defying the Constitution.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So I would say that with Trump being anti Constitution, I don't really care, to be quite frank, because in regards. In regards to the Constitution, the Constitution is a document that should seek to serve us. And when it fails to seek to serve us, that can be amended, laws can be changed. And quite frankly, the fact is we're defending things in this country that shouldn't be defended. The First Amendment should not defend pornography and making children and women be victimized. Making women and children be victimized. As a result of that, I think things like blasphemy shouldn't be allowed per the First Amendment. I think that, quite frankly, there are a lot of legal processes that are enabling criminals and bad people to fully enact their will in this country in the name of the Constitution or following the Constitution. So, quite frankly, if Trump is anti Constitution, good. And I think he should go further.

[Connor]

So this is. This is wonderfully revealing of the modern conservative mindset. So I appreciate you spelling it out so openly. Just checking. Do you support the Second Amendment Amendment?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I do.

[Connor]

Okay. Surprise. I was shocked to hear that. I'm saying that Donald Trump is defying the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, the 14th Amendment. He's thinking of defying the 12th and 22nd Amendments. You're saying you don't care about the Constitution, but actually you do because you quite like the Second Amendment. You just don't like the bits that you disagree with. Can I just be clear on that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm more than willing to. I'm more than willing to amend it and whenever it's in your favor. Yeah, absolutely.

[Connor]

So can Democrats do the same when they're in office?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, absolutely not. Because you don't believe in democracy? No, I don't. Absolutely not.

[Connor]

What do you believe in?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Autocracy.

[Connor]

By who?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Honestly? Quite frankly, anyone who is in line with Catholic teaching.

[Connor]

Donald Trump is not Catholic.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Of course he's not. I completely agree.

[Connor]

So you support problem, you don't support Trump?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I don't. I didn't even vote for him. I wrote in like John Pork or someone. I remember.

[Connor]

Why did you vote if you don't believe in democracy and you want autocracy?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, because quite frankly I voted. I kind of voted.

[Connor]

Just I came with this argument, but I'm bored of my own argument. I'm much more interested in this.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So. Yeah, absolutely.

[Connor]

Do we get to an autocracy?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think quite frankly that if we are able to enact local leaders.

[Connor]

Who is the we, by the way?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think quite frankly these far right conservatives sitting right around white people. Yeah, absolutely.

[Connor]

So.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, actually I have quite some of.

[Connor]

The people in this room don't make the cut from what I can see visually.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Actually, hold on for a moment. I do think that there are people who happen to not be white who do actually have history in this country and have roots in this country. For instance, from the Mexican American War, we subsumed a lot of territory of people who have far stakes in this country who happen to be Hispanic or what have you. I'm for defending the traditional demographics of this country, which is majority white. I should stay that way.

[Connor]

How does the United States. I mean, we've gone so off topic, but how does the United States look like under you? So what's your name?

[Mehdi Hassan]

My name is. Well, my name's Connor. It's a pleasure to meet you.

[Connor]

Took a little bit of a doubt.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I use a pseudonym online. Fair enough, fair enough.

[Connor]

How would Connor's America look? What would it look like?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, quite frankly, I think we would deport people who shouldn't be here.

[Connor]

I didn't ask about deporting. What does the government look like?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Like what's the government look like? Yeah, I would say quite frankly it's under a sort of benevolent leader such as Franco. Oh, it could be a kind of aristocratic class. Could be someone who picks the autocrat, frankly, the people. I mean, we could hold a vote on it.

[Connor]

Kings, Isn't that democracy?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, sure, you can have a vote.

[Connor]

To get to that and then no more votes afterwards.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Absolutely. 100%.

[Connor]

Wow. And if that autocrat kills you and your family, you're fine with that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, I'm not. I'm not going to be a part of the group that he kills because that's the whole thing.

[Connor]

How do you know Carl Schmidt? Autocrats tend to kill.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Everyone makes this point very well. In his work, it's the friend enemy distinction. Right.

[Connor]

You the Nazi theoretician?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Absolutely. I don't care.

[Connor]

Are you fan of the Nazis?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't. I frankly don't care. Being called the Nazi?

[Connor]

I didn't say that. I didn't actually say that. I said, are you a fan of the Nazis?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, they persecuted the church a little bit. I'm not a fan of that.

[Connor]

But what about the persecution of the Jews?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, I mean, I certainly don't support anyone's human dignity being assaulted. I'm a Catholic.

[Connor]

But you don't condemn Nazi persecution of the Jews.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think that there was a little bit of persecution.

[Connor]

We rename the show because you're a little bit more than a far right Republican.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hey, what can I say?

[Connor]

I think you say I'm a fascist.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, I am. Absolutely.

[Connor]

I'm just checking who's clapping just to get my set of where everyone is at. Because. Because you know that millions of people are going to be watching you on YouTube and checking out who the fascists and the Nazis are.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm not ashamed of that.

[Connor]

No, clearly you're not.

[Mehdi Hassan]

During the, during the pre war period, prior to World War II, it was only those parties that properly enacted the people's will. That's why they won. The conservatives were fat cats.

[Connor]

Are you in favor of killing people who aren't like you?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Quite frankly, I'm not.

[Connor]

You mentioned Franco earlier. Franco killed a lot of innocent people.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Oh, well, he killed communists. He killed people who raped nuns and killed priests.

[Connor]

What about children who he killed and women who killed. He killed.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What are you talking about? He never killed any women or children. He was captured.

[Connor]

He only killed combatants. Is that what you're claiming?

[Mehdi Hassan]

He only killed combatants? Killed any innocent white. The white terror was only punishing those people who did acts of terrorism. And again, are you supporting like raping innocent women? Nuns, dude. Killing priests. I mean, priest. Don't brandish guns and kill.

[Connor]

You just refuse to condemn the Nazi holocaust, my friend, I don't think you're in a position to ask anyone any questions.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I quite frankly don't care what you think about me if I'm a Nazi. And being a Nazi.

[Connor]

Mutual.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Being a Nazi means upholding human dignity. Because I even believe in your dignity. In a state that I was running, I wouldn't want to. I wouldn't want to hurt you or anything like that.

[Connor]

But quite frankly, I don't debate fascists.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, so do you. Do you concede then?

[Connor]

I mean, why do I concede you're a fascist who won't condemn the Nazi. Yes, I concede.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, great. So, I mean, what are we doing here? Because, I mean, you just seem.

[Connor]

You're doing here.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You just seem offended to be, quite frankly.

[Connor]

Like, I'm offended by people who can't condemn the Nazis. Yes, I am.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, well, I condemn the evils that they did, but I don't really care about being. Yeah, sure. I don't care, though, about being called a Nazi is the whole thing.

[Connor]

I never called you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I care.

[Connor]

You called you a fascist and a general Franco.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, yeah, I am a general Franco supporter. He was awesome. He was so super cool, quite frankly, because the whole thing.

[Connor]

And you don't believe in democracy.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't believe in democracy.

[Connor]

What are you doing here at a televised debate? This is democracy.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It is the means to support an end. The reason we have free speech now is because we want to be openly talking about our opinions so we can get the state that we want, want. But it doesn't mean a fully free speech after we win. Again, I mentioned the only good thing.

[Connor]

About this fascist moment. The whole reason is that you guys are so open about it.

[Mehdi Hassan]

The whole reason. The whole reason I mentioned Carl Schmidt earlier, and you kind of blew past him, is the friend, enemy, distinction. Even liberals, when they take power, they want to enact policies and they want to act, enact protections for their people and their ideas, and they're willing to punish their enemy. And so I'm the same way. I'm like, hey, if you're going to punish me, me, I'm going to get in power and I'm going to, frankly, punish you when you try to leverage power against me. Just that simple.

[Connor]

I'm not sure what you want to say.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hey, it is what it is. All right, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. It's a pleasure to meet you, sir.

[Connor]

I can't say the same, but thank you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

All right.

[Connor]

Right.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So I kind of want to start at the basics or the foundation I want to see.

[Connor]

Can I just check?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes.

[Connor]

Are you a fascist?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't. I describe myself as, I think, just a Christian. I'm fair enough. I'm a devout Christian.

[Connor]

Good to you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So I want to start, like, what is your connection to the Constitution and why. Why do you love it so much? Like, what. What makes it so important that Trump would defy something like the Constitution to you personally?

[Connor]

Great questions. My first connection is I'm an American citizen. I naturalized American citizen. Took a pledge to this country, to the Constitution. As a previous speaker has said, constitution's not perfect. A lot of things I don't like about it. I don't like the Second Amendment. There's various amendments. I don't like the way the Senate is set up. I'm sure there's things you don't like about the Constitution. The difference is, I don't think you can just illegally defy the Constitution. I think each and every one of us can make up whatever we want. Certainly presidents who are elected with an oath. Right? Donald Trump took an oath, oath to preserve, protect, defend the Constitution. And now when he's asked on television, isn't it your job to uphold the Constitution? He said on NBC, I don't know which goes against his oath. And I'm identifying specific amendments where he is violating. He's only six months into his presidency, defying the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, the 14th Amendment. He wants to defy the 22nd Amendment and be president for a third term. This is the problem we have right now. Free speech is under assault. The free press is under assault. Due process is under assault. The right to be in your home and not be invaded by federal agents. The Fourth Amendment is under assault. So that, for me, is a problem.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, well, I'd like to start to say I really don't find the Constitution that important. I find it to be, like a 300-year-old document, and it was created to defy the country that subjugated your ancestors in India. And then your parents probably moved from India to Britain, and then you move here to tell us that we should listen to a piece of paper that you were never even connected to to begin with. So I want to say, like, if I don't care about it, why do you care about it so much?

[Connor]

How do you run a country without any kind of laws or due process? And by the way, you do care about it, because without the First Amendment, you wouldn't be sitting here.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Oh, I agree with the First Amendment.

[Connor]

And I think so do you agree with Donald Trump's crackdown on the First Amendment? He's imprisoning people for their speech. He's crack. He's threatening free speech, media organizations. He's threatening peaceable assembly. These are all rights under the First Amendment. Why aren't you bothered by that? That, as a conservative, claims to love the First Amendment.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So I actually, I don't like the First Amendment. I like free speech.

[Connor]

Okay, so First Amendment is what guarantees free speech. I'm from the U.K. by the way, I'm from the U.K. which is a democracy. We don't have the First Amendment. No, that's one of the things I do like about the Constitution. I wish the UK did have a First Amendment.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So people are arrested for praying outside abortion clinics and stuff like that.

[Connor]

So. So you're, you're opposed to people being arrested for speech crimes?

[Mehdi Hassan]

It depends what it is. If it's like the people.

[Connor]

So you're like one of the previous figures. You don't know. As long as it's someone who agrees with you, you don't mind?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, no. I support.

[Connor]

Either we consistently support principles or we don't speech 100%. Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't think anyone.

[Connor]

So do you think Donald Trump is defying the Constitution by cracking down on the First Amendment?

[Mehdi Hassan]

So I think he's cracking down on free speech, like the deportation of Mahmoud Khalil, who's.

[Connor]

Who was just released from prison by a judge saying his First Amendment rights were violated.

[Mehdi Hassan]

And I agree with the judge and I disagree with Trump deporting them, but I think that's more a matter of free speech and not the Constitution.

[Connor]

I think that's pedantry at this moment. I think you've conceded that he is cracking down on free speech, which is the First Amendment. So he is defying the Constitution. So it's a pleasure to be in agreement with you, sir. All right, pause.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Thank you very much. Do you many believe that the Constitution is important and good overall?

[Connor]

Yes.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do you believe that that Constitution can be eroded through democratic processes?

[Connor]

What do you mean by erode the.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Original intention of the Constitution being destroyed through a purely, you know, democratic or legal process?

[Connor]

Not sure I agree with.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay.

[Connor]

I think if you're democratically amending the Constitution per the rules of the Constitution, that's fine. If we could find a constitutional way to get rid of the Second Amendment, I'd be pro that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So let's pose a hypothetical wherein the entire population of the United States has drastically changed.

[Connor]

Yes.

[Mehdi Hassan]

And the population now has completely different intentions about what to do with the country. Let's say it wants to give it all back to Mexico, dismantling the United States of America. If that's the case, then what's the use of the Constitution? It hasn't defended the country. In fact, it's allowed for its destruction.

[Connor]

I don't understand the premise. How did the whole country change?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Demographic replacement, mass migration. I mean, we're seeing a change in demographics and there's.

[Connor]

What is the. I do want to talk about immigration today.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I want to talk about it.

[Connor]

Everyone's itching in this group to get immigration. I've saved it. I've saved it for you all. But given we're on the sense of the Constitution and you asked a question, what is the proportion of immigrants in this country? What proportion of the population is foreign born?

[Mehdi Hassan]

It's very difficult to measure because the actual projections of the number have been changing more rapidly.

[Connor]

What is currently the best estimate?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think it was about 15%.

[Connor]

Yes. Yeah, just under 15%.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Which is, by the way, which is more actually than the original estimate was.

[Connor]

So 15% of the people are going to change the country. The Constitution. How's that going to make sense? It's actually a nightmare. As someone who wants to amend the Constitution and get rid of things like the ridiculous way the Senate is set up or the second Amendment on guns, various other things, it's really hard to change the Constitution. They made it impossible. Almost impossible. You know, last time we had a constitutional amendment, you know, what, 20, 30 years ago, I understand, which I think members of Congress pay, which is why I get it. So where are you getting this scenario where 350 odd million people all become foreign born migrants or the children of migrants, immediate migrants, even though America is a nation of migrants, and then abandons the Constitution and give the country back to Mexico, outside of your imagination. Hold on, where is that happening?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, let's bring it back to the actual discussion. What you did is you entertain my hypothetical, but then instead of sticking to the point of the Constitution, you said, well, how would you bring about your hypothetical? And then when I.

[Connor]

Because you missed out the part where the Constitution's quite hard to change.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hold on. I understand that I gave you a sense.

[Connor]

I also wanted to get a sense of where you are. And you're a great replacement guy.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay. Yeah. And you're a real good journalist because you don't talk to people who identify as like a political ideology. I mean, that's.

[Connor]

No, I don't debate fascists. I'll talk to them and I won't debate.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Frankly, that's upsetting. I think there's a big problem when, you know, we value freedom of speech so much, but any real journalist is not gonna talk to somebody because they identify with the politically incorrect ideology.

[Connor]

Just talk to the guy in front of you. What are you talking about?

[Mehdi Hassan]

You literally stop talking to him.

[Connor]

And then everybody debating the vote, debating versus talking is very different.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, okay.

[Connor]

It's pointless he doesn't believe in free speech, okay? He doesn't believe in democracy.

[Mehdi Hassan]

He was freely speaking with you. You're the one who.

[Connor]

Shut up. No, he said very clearly, okay? He said, I support free speech so that I can get one election. After one election, my guy comes in. And after my guy comes in, nobody gets to speak or vote again. Why would I debate that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

We listen to your conversation.

[Connor]

Let's remind you what it was because.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You just misrepresented back to the Constitution.

[Connor]

Please. Do I believe 4th, 5th, 14th amendments, those are the ones I'm saying Trump is defying. Do you support that or do you not?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I believe that the Constitution is valuable because it represents particular interests of the founding stock of Americans who made this country great.

[Connor]

Do you think due process is important? Some would say that's at the very core of American Constitution.

[Mehdi Hassan]

And what I think makes the Constitution function, what allows it to save this country and to actually make it work, are the people who are.

[Connor]

I'm not sure where you're going with this argument.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hold on, hold on. I'll show you.

[Connor]

That's my claim. You can have these weird hypotheticals.

[Mehdi Hassan]

We're taking it into a different manner, which is what's the function of the.

[Connor]

I'd rather not have your.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You already did. You already did it just five minutes ago when you took it to Immigration.

[Connor]

Now I don't want to.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, let's bring it back.

[Connor]

I want to bring it Back to the 1st, the 4th, the 5th, and the 14th Amendments and the 22nd Amendments. Look, I think you've got two very good positions here. One is to say, I don't think he's defying them. And I'll say, why? You're wrong. Or you say, I don't care that he's defined them as one of your colleagues said. In which case, I don't know where this conversation goes. Because you don't believe in democracy.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That's fair. Do you think it's wrong to dismantle the Constitution?

[Connor]

So there's two options ahead of you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do you agree this is important.

[Connor]

Do you agree so is Donald Trumpet. Let me ask a question about. Because you're asking me questions. You're not answering the basic point. Do you think Donald Trump is dismantling the Constitution? Can we agree that Donald Trump is dismantled? Because I'll agree with you on that. I think he is dismantling the Constitution. I think he's illegally, unconstitutionally.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think he's interpreting it in ways that are. That are more.

[Connor]

Which judges do not agree with him. On.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, hold on.

[Connor]

Which the Supreme Court has not agreed.

[Mehdi Hassan]

With them and the judges don't agree with the people who wrote the Constitution.

[Connor]

How do you know that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, let's take your example of the second Amendment. Let's say that a bunch of.

[Connor]

I didn't give the second Amendment.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, hold on.

[Connor]

You don't want to talk about the ones I've given.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You're interrupting me.

[Connor]

You're ignoring me. First, fourth, fifth, 14th, 22nd amendments. Those are my amendments that I came with today. If you don't want to debate them, just say so.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm trying to understand your ideology. You believe that dismantling the Constitution when it's about parts of the constitution that.

[Connor]

You 22nd amendments, you would be fine.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Getting rid of the second amendment even though that would be a dismantling of the Constitution?

[Connor]

No, because it would be done by a constitutional means. I'm not the one seeing sitting here like your pal. You have agreed.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You have agreed the Constitution saying you.

[Connor]

Just get rid of them willy nilly. I don't agree.

[Mehdi Hassan]

We're ramping up.

[Connor]

I don't agree that Joe Biden should come in and say by executive order. If Joe Biden put out executive order saying second Amendment no longer applies, I can round up everyone's guns. I don't agree with that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Your result is exactly.

[Connor]

I don't agree with them, no. But I don't agree with the method of doing it. It's unconstitutional.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That's fine.

[Connor]

He would have been defined Constitution and I would have said so. But you can't bring yourself to say so. We've been sitting here for several minutes. All of your friends have seen me ask you several times, do you agree that Donald Trump is defying the first, fourth, fifth, fourteenth and possibly twenty second Amendments?

[Mehdi Hassan]

You're colleague, I know that he's defined. I understand what you came in here. What you are attempting to do is simply frame this conversation like you did with the first claim about Donald Trump. But then when anybody asks you any kind of question that presses you to the least degree.

[Connor]

No, I answered. I said I would dispense with Constitution, but I would do it constitutionally, not by executive order.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So what I'm trying to get to is to prove to everybody who's watching that what you care about is not the Constitution in what it represents or creates. You care about the Constitution only insofar as it allows you to achieve your political worldview. We agree on that.

[Connor]

No, I care about the Constitution because I don't think presidents should be fascist dictators and Violate the Constitution.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You.

[Connor]

That's what I'm saying. You care and he is defi. I don't think the president shall have the power to lock you and me up if we write an op ed that he doesn't like. That's why I don't think the president should be able to crack down on us. If you and I could decide to go protest alongside his parade.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I agree with you.

[Connor]

I don't think the president should be able to deprive you and I of due process or come into our rooms without a worry. And I think let's on an agreement then.

[Mehdi Hassan]

All right, pause.

[Connor]

You've been voted out. It's good to meet you guys.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So Trump is defying the 1st, 4th.

[Connor]

5Th, 14th and maybe the 22nd soon.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, so I want to focus on the 1st.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

And the 5th. Okay, so you say that Trump is defying the First Amendment. Can you give me an example?

[Connor]

For example, he banned the Associated Press from attending White House events. A Trump appointed judge said that was against. Against the First Amendment. He's been cracking down on media organizations he doesn't like over their speech. If they say stuff he doesn't like, he, for example, cracking down. How so? For example, he banned the Associated Press from attending White House events because they.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Say he can't go to the White House.

[Connor]

It's the Gulf of Mexico. That's not how it works. They were already at the White House. He deprived them for access, so he punished them for their speech, but they.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Had to go to the press, which.

[Connor]

Is why a judge he appointed, Trevor McFadden, said this was contrary to the First Amendment. A Trump appointed judge. He's called MSNBC and CNN illegal. Media organizations are not ipso facts.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But that's free speech.

[Connor]

Illegal.

[Mehdi Hassan]

He can call them whatever they want.

[Connor]

Attacking the media.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, he can.

[Connor]

By the president as the executive. Yeah, he can say whatever he wants.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That's literally the First Amendment.

[Connor]

He can say whatever he wants.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Absolutely.

[Connor]

But the media can't say what they want. They do, but he's going after. He's suing them. He's using lawsuits to crack down on the press. Presidents have not done that before.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Give him 34 felonies that Hillary Clinton did.

[Connor]

No media gave him a lawsuit.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, but people.

[Connor]

We don't talk about the Democrats.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, so he can call them whatever he wants because that's the freedom of speech. He can even.

[Connor]

He's threatened to imprison reporters. He absolutely. He wants to imprison. He said reporters should go to prison for reporting. He threatened Some of them with prison rape. Right. That is against the First Amendment.

[Mehdi Hassan]

He. Okay, how is that against the First Amendment?

[Connor]

You don't think sending reporters to prison for reporting that he doesn't like.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Did he do that?

[Connor]

He wanted to. He said. So I would like them to go.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I would really like to.

[Connor]

So people, other people stopped him. Doesn't mean he's not defying the Constitution.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So he also said if you turn up, excuse me. He can want to do something.

[Connor]

Yes.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That doesn't mean he will or he can.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

And I think he's very.

[Connor]

Well, I've already gave an example of something he did do to the Associated Press. But.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, yeah. Okay. So the Associated Press and allowed in the Oval Office, which is his office, that's his executive space. And they are allowed in the press room, just like cnn, just like the.

[Connor]

Guardian, which he thinks are illegal media organizations.

[Mehdi Hassan]

He can.

[Connor]

He calls the media the enemies of the people.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You called him a fascist.

[Connor]

Yeah.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You can say whatever you want. Yes, yes.

[Connor]

But the president is. I'm not the. I'm not the president. United States with executive power to crack.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Down on the media only applies to the citizens, but not the president.

[Connor]

I never said that. Donald Trump runs his mouth more than any.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Anyone. Absolutely. Yes.

[Connor]

And he doesn't just say stuff. As I said, he actually does stuff. Yet she does crack down. For example, you. Fifth Amendment.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes.

[Connor]

Due process.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes.

[Connor]

Judges have actually said you have violated due process. Yes. Except people on trial.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Except for people kind of forget The Clinton. The 1996 Immigration Reform act where you can, you can get limited due process.

[Connor]

When you have expedited American citizens. No. What about American citizens?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Who's getting deported? That's American.

[Connor]

Two American children have been deported multiple this year. Have you not been. No, no, no.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Their parents have been deported and their parents say no.

[Connor]

The father was an American. No.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Was mom legal?

[Connor]

We don't know because they didn't, they didn't go to court. And the judge. You have to go to court. Yes.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That's not a part of the due process.

[Connor]

Are you a lawyer?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm very aware of that.

[Connor]

Are you a lawyer?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do I have to be? Oh, oh. We're making an argument.

[Connor]

Are you a lawyer from.

[Mehdi Hassan]

We're making.

[Connor]

It's a simple question. Are you a lawyer?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, we're making an argument.

[Connor]

I'll take that as a no. A Trump appointed judge in the case, not some Marxist lefty judge, as you people like to call them. A Trump appointed conservative judge said, you cannot. It is illegal and unconstitutional to expel or deport an American citizen without meaningful process. He said that in April. So that was an act that Trump did.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It wasn't speech.

[Connor]

He got rid of an American citizen from the country without process. That's the Fifth Amendment violation.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Since I'm not up to date on that specific.

[Connor]

I give you more.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm sure you can.

[Connor]

So, well, you weren't aware that American citizens are being deported? It's a pretty big story. Yeah, maybe if you read the fake news, you might know.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What?

[Connor]

If you read the fake news, you might know what's going on. A lot of American citizens.

[Mehdi Hassan]

How would I know what's going on if I read fake news? I don't watch CNN or Rachel Maddow. Sorry.

[Connor]

That's why you don't know that your fellow citizens have been deported this year.

[Mehdi Hassan]

My fellow citizens?

[Connor]

Are they not American citizens haven't been deported.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay. When a child goes with their. All right, guys, that's time. Please return to your seat. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.

[Connor]

My next Amazon One Medical presents Painful Thoughts.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I've been on hold to make a doctor's appoint 23 minutes now. The automated voice has told me 47.

[Connor]

Times that my call is very important to them. Hmm, I'm starting to think that they don't think my call is important at all. With Amazon One Medical 24. 7 Virtual Care, you'll get help fast without having to remain on the line to make an appointment. Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful. On WhatsApp, no one can see or.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hear your personal messages.

[Connor]

Whether it's a voice call message or.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this.

[Connor]

So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Next claim is that immigrants overall are good for America.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So in regards to your claim, I just want to start by asking this. Do you care more about helping Americans or immigrants in this. In this claim?

[Connor]

Immigrants are Americans. I'm an immigrant and an American.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, immigrants are not Americans. Americans are the people that were born here.

[Connor]

That's not true. Where'd you get. What's the basis of your claim for that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Are you talking about people that get naturalized in the process of becoming American?

[Connor]

14Th amendment. Have you read it?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, yes, I have.

[Connor]

Citizenship clause. It says any persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm Aware of that there's about 40%.

[Connor]

To 50 million naturalized Americans in this country.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes, but you didn't seem aware of.

[Connor]

It because you said Americans versus immigrants.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So. But are you understanding that the process of getting all these immigrants that come in here for we've been also the millions of immigrants. It's up to the millions is the last 20 years now. And it has dramatically affected Americans here.

[Connor]

In the country, which positively, I would.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Argue, people like me and everyone around here, we cannot find homes or even get jobs within our own fields that we go to college for, that we get into debt for. And because more blue collar work, especially in construction, agriculture and so forth, and the hospitality industry, we cannot get jobs in those fields.

[Connor]

So it requires. Are you looking for a job in construction or not?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I went to college. Many people here are in college or went to college, but we can't even find jobs in our fields also because the H1B visa program as well. But in regards to just your claim about immigrants specifically, we cannot even get jobs to pay for housing.

[Connor]

Unemployment is at a record low right now, even under Donald Trump, and I'm not a Donald Trump fan, but I would say unemployment under both Biden and Trump has been at record low levels.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay. Is this in regards for American citizens?

[Connor]

Yes.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay. Okay. Well, I'm unaware of that statistic, but from what I see from. Right.

[Connor]

I'm an immigrant and an American and I employ many American citizens. And both naturalized. And the ones born here, I employ my parents. No, my parents came as Americans. As defined by you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

My parents came as immigrants become naturalized. So I'm not necessarily posting immigrants.

[Connor]

So you're the child of immigrants?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Correct. I'm a child of immigrants. I was.

[Connor]

But you don't accept that immigrants are Americans?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Not at this moment.

[Connor]

Your parents are not Americans?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Not at this moment.

[Connor]

Hold on. Your parents are citizens.

[Mehdi Hassan]

They became naturalized.

[Connor]

You just said you can't be citizens by being naturalized.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I was born here and I'm not a naturalization. Against naturalization.

[Connor]

Are you against naturalization?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I never said I was against. You did.

[Connor]

You began. You're very. Everyone was here. They can. They can play it back on YouTube. You said Americans or immigrants. Are your parents Americans or immigrants?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, my parents are United States citizens.

[Connor]

But they're immigrants, you said.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, they came here as immigrants, however.

[Connor]

So they are immigrants. I came here as an immigrant. I'm an immigrant.

[Mehdi Hassan]

At this point, when they came the.

[Connor]

United States, they're not happy with the way this is going for you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

The United States economy Was not at.

[Connor]

It's better now. The American economy is better than it's.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Been for many years.

[Connor]

And I can say that as someone who doesn't like Donald Trump, which statistics.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Are you seeing billions of dollars of minorities as well as the reason the.

[Connor]

Economy is doing badly now is Donald Trump's tariff policy nothing to do with migrants. In fact, the congressional start businesses. I'm an immigrant. I started a business. In fact, I understand. Because the immigrants are giving people. Billions of people. I didn't take any loans. I didn't take any loans.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm not saying you did, but I'm saying statistically speaking, they're giving billions of loans.

[Connor]

Should we do statistics? According to statistics, immigrants are 80% more likely to be entrepreneurs than native born Americans are more likely to start businesses and hire Americans.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I'm aware of that.

[Connor]

Immigrants are more likely to pay in taxes than take out in benefits. They're more likely to add to innovation and jobs. Jobs and wages. This is what the statistics show. The Congressional Budget Office. Let me just finish my point and let you come back in the Congressional Budget Office, which is bipartisan. Republicans and Democrats both use it. They have said that the immigration surge that you mentioned will lead to an extra $9 trillion of GDP over the next 10 years. That amounts to $65,000 per American household. That's $65,000 for each and every one of you holding up a red flag.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, I understand. Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Me? Nice to meet you. Thank you.

[Connor]

All right, so first, before I start.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I need to know what you mean by good. I can talk about the economy.

[Connor]

I can talk about culture.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I can talk about all those things. I need to know what you mean.

[Connor]

All of them.

[Mehdi Hassan]

All of them.

[Connor]

I'm. I'm saying immigrants are good for the economy. They're good for wages.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Are good for the economy.

[Connor]

Where's the lower wages?

[Mehdi Hassan]

What do you mean where's the lower wages?

[Connor]

Where's the lower wages?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah.

[Connor]

So you can. What's the basis for saying they're low wages? Sure.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So you can look at like the STEM industry. It's been in like a complete and total recession. There's been tons of studies like from the Economic Policy Institute that shows that like companies like Tesla, companies from like Silicon Valley, they engaged in mass firing of workers, around 35,000, but then they hired around 12,000 H1B visas. And it's kind of just like, just standard economic thinking. If you.

[Connor]

It's not standard economic. The vast majority of economists and economic studies suggest that there is a negligible if no impact on wages over time.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That's not immigrants.

[Connor]

In fact, your colleague mentioned earlier construction. There is actually evidence in construction, yes, but in some industries, in some areas there is an impact, but overall, no. In fact, in a study from the National Bureau of Economic Research found that migrants since 1965 have raised wages, raised innovation.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Who's that by?

[Connor]

National Bureau for Economic Research.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, that. No, hold on. That's where you publish studies. I'm asking.

[Connor]

I didn't memorize the names of the authors.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, I know. You did.

[Connor]

Right, you give me the authors.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, hold on. The study you're talking about is from Giovanni Perry. And what he did is he didn't account for aggregation issues, nor did he.

[Connor]

Vast majority of studies.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Let me speak, please. Yeah, thank you. Right, so listen, he didn't account for aggregation issues. Right. And when you look at like the spatial approaches with all these economists use, you're not accounting for the fact that when immigrants come into an area, natives leave. If you look at an occupational approach where you look at, look at the specific firms and immigrations going into like Kim et al. 2013, did you find a net negative impact when there's a 10% increase of immigration? You find around a 0.5% decline in wages when it comes to the specific occupations they're going to. So all your studies are gone.

[Connor]

So 0.5%. Weigh that up against what I just mentioned from the Congressional Budget Office, which is a massive boost in GDP per head, which you're not counting for massive increase in tax revenue. Immigrants actually funding, funding the deficits and debts by paying way more in taxes, proportionately undocumented wages. And what's interesting about wages is I'm in a room full of. I don't know what to call you anymore. Conservatives, Republicans, Fascists. I don't know. One of you is probably said that one of us proudly. Oh, yeah, correct. I'm in a room full of correct people. But do any of you actually care about wages?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Because I actually.

[Connor]

Do you support raising the minimum wage?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Absolutely. And you can't do that when you bring all these people coming into for.

[Connor]

The reason the Republican party blocks the motor away. You think Republican politicians don't vote for an increase in minimum wage because they're worried about immigration?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Did I say about a Republican?

[Connor]

Well, I'm on a show that was called 25 far right Republicans.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That doesn't mean I'm going to support every single Republican candidate.

[Connor]

So you and I. Good. So you And I, you and all us agree. We both support raising the minimum wage. $7.25 since 2009, it's lost 30% of its value. If you care about wages, we should be raising the minimum wage in this country.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Country.

[Connor]

Not scapegoating migrants who aren't the cause of low wages. You know who's causing low wages? Billionaires, millionaires, and people who won't pay fair wages to their wages. Regardless of whether you are an immigrant or a native.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Monologue right now. Let me respond.

[Connor]

You had one. You had one, one study that had a 0.5 impact.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah. And your study, like sucked that you didn't even know who wrote it. Right. So, like, let's get back to the.

[Connor]

Point because I don't need to go again.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah.

[Connor]

The majority of studies say that wages are not impacted.

[Mehdi Hassan]

The majority of your studies are flawed. That's what I'm telling you.

[Connor]

My studies. Neither of us are economists. It's the economists.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Don't assume who I am.

[Connor]

Are you economist?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I could be.

[Connor]

But are you?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I could be.

[Connor]

Are you?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm not going to tell you.

[Connor]

Are you?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm going to major in economics.

[Connor]

Right. Are you an economist?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, not right.

[Connor]

Okay, so when I said neither is economists, I was correct.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Just don't assume.

[Connor]

To use your favorite word.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So here. Dude, this is nothing of substance. You look at the red flags, they're coming up. Let me get to the point. But when you talk about the cbo, one thing you're not accounting for here is that they're assuming an equilibrium. Right. Do you know what that means? Means you shouldn't make these type of assumptions. You said earlier that unemployment, what it means.

[Connor]

I thought we're not doing assumptions.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, hold on. You mentioned we were like at like 4.2 percentage unemployment. Yeah. That's counting people who have part time jobs. That's counting poverty wages being counted. Yeah.

[Connor]

I'm against poverty wages. You won't let me again.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes. If you look, if you go to like the Lugwood Institute, they calculated a way where it's like functional unemployment. Okay. If you account for things like just people who make around $25,000 a year, people who have fallen out of the labor market, people who only work part time. If you put, if you count all of those people together and then add on the unemployment, that's around 25% of the population. So when you go, we don't have jobs. We don't have people to do this, this and that and the other. No. Yes, we do. Okay. We don't have a labor shortage. We have a good job shortage. And when you keep bringing these people in and they're taking those jobs, the.

[Connor]

Good job shortage is the fault of big firms, employees. I'm an employee. I can say that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Who hires the immigrants?

[Connor]

Who hires the immigrants?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah.

[Connor]

Employers.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Exactly. So when you pull up these big firms.

[Connor]

Okay, so let me ask you something. Let me ask you a question. If you got rid of all immigrants coming in tomorrow, moratorium. You think that. You think that Republicans and employers of big firms just suddenly raise all the way. That's what you believe.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It was a complete pit of your ankle.

[Connor]

That's what you believe. I'm on your subject. Do you believe that wages. I'm just wondering how naive you are. You believe that the 1% will raise wages in the federal wage if we stop immigration.

[Mehdi Hassan]

They will be forced to when you increase labor's relationship to capital. Okay. And you give labor more bargaining power.

[Connor]

Because you're tightening the supply of labor to understand economics. Because you can't explain I'm wrong. I'm telling you how you're wrong. Because you're ignoring the fact that when immigrants come into an area, they spend money, they create jobs.

[Mehdi Hassan]

About one fifth of their monthly income leaves the country.

[Connor]

They spend. That's a good thing. Also because you don't like USA foreign aid. So this is the point. They create jobs. I came into this country. So far, every one of my assumptions about you has been correct. But listen to me. I am an immigrant. I'm speaking from personal experience.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Get the hell out.

[Connor]

I don't even like I should. Get the hell out.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes.

[Connor]

Why?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't want you here.

[Connor]

Why?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Because you come here and say all this about how Americans are lazy. You push your left one.

[Connor]

I never said Americans.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't know why you say that.

[Connor]

I never said Americans come into this.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Country so they can do jobs that we don't want to do. Really?

[Connor]

When did I say it? Guys watching on YouTube, rewind to the time where I said immigrants are doing drugs. We don't want to do. When did I say those words came out of my mouth?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, so why don't we have to bring in immigrants. Why do we have to bring in immigrants to the country if we have people who are going to do the jobs?

[Connor]

Pause.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Pause. You've been voted out. It's nice talking to you.

[Connor]

Nice talking to you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You're going to have to go.

[Connor]

Nice talking to you. You're going to have to go, bro. Is what he said as I left. To an American Citizen. Good. Good to know where you stand on immigration. It's not about immigration, is it? That's what it's not about.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So what type of immigrants are we talking about? What do you mean, like any immigrants or.

[Connor]

That's why I said immigrants. Illegal immigrants, undocumented immigrants also contribute greatly to the U.S. i. I say undocumented. I don't think people are illegal.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So let's put it this way. I mean, I'm an immigrant too, from Iran.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

There isn't even a us about the.

[Connor]

Fact that people here want you out. Are you okay with that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm here to debate you, not debate them.

[Connor]

I mean, you're all on the same side. You're part of one group.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No.

[Connor]

You've been clapping each other.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No. I mean, there are conservatives here, there are far right people here, there are Republicans.

[Connor]

How do you feel about that guy wanting me and you to leave?

[Mehdi Hassan]

But, you know, let's.

[Connor]

I'm just wondering. This is the topic of immigration.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It's not about my feelings towards them. Them.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It's about staying on this topic.

[Connor]

Immigrants are good for America. Yeah. You and me, we're good for America. And the guy over there wants us to leave. So I'm just wondering how you feel about that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So I believe that there has to be strict immigration laws. Okay. We have to make sure that the people are coming here, have the good intent of the United States in mind.

[Connor]

That's not my claim, but. Okay, so my claim is about. Immigrants are net positive.

[Mehdi Hassan]

If you just open our borders to every single person that wants to be here, you know, that. That claims that they have economical hardship in their country.

[Connor]

Who's calling for open borders? Borders?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I'm just saying, you know, I.

[Connor]

Mean, it's a straw man. So you're just saying a straw man.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I'm.

[Connor]

I'm saying you're wasting time with a straw man. No one's calling for open borders. I see immigrants who.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You wasted time trying to cause division between me and division.

[Connor]

He wants you to leave the country. That's a pretty big deal. I mean, you can ignore it, but that's your side, my friend.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Like I said, you made your. That tried to derail this argument. Derail by bringing that.

[Connor]

It's my argument. I'm saying immigrants are good to America. People on your side. We should leave. Not me.

[Mehdi Hassan]

And I asked you, what type of immigrants are we talking about? Immigrants.

[Connor]

Overall.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Overall. Overall. So, I mean, we're not gonna.

[Connor]

So you want to get into. You want me to get into, like, particular Communities. I'm not playing that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So you believe that people that come here without overall help, the society, without any respect to our laws and our border, you know, are going to be good for this country?

[Connor]

No, of course not.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So you can't say that. All immigrants overall.

[Connor]

I never said all immigrants. I said immigrants overall. Immigrants overall doesn't mean all immigrants. Sorry to break that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

All right, so. So we have to make sure that the people are coming here, have the good intent of this country in mind. Agreed?

[Connor]

Yes. Irrelevant to my claim.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But when you have undocumented immigration going on, you can't vet that. You can't make sure about that. Let me real quick, you know, talk about, you know, my background. There is no Iran. American Embassy in Iran. So to. In order to come here, you have to stay in line for four years, and you have to go through some. Some serious vetting procedure to get here. But I made it, and that process has to be in place because, I mean, you don't want terrorists, but I'm.

[Connor]

I made it, too. I'm an American citizen. I went through lots of vetting. I took my test, and that's how.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That's.

[Connor]

The guy over there wants us to leave.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But. But.

[Connor]

But he wants us to leave.

[Mehdi Hassan]

When people.

[Connor]

People don't really care about vetting, do they? But it's not really about vetting, is it, my friends?

[Mehdi Hassan]

When people should not have the right. People should not have the right to ignore our borders and our laws.

[Connor]

What about those of us who don't ignore the borders? Should we get to stay?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Of course he says we shouldn't. Well, I'm not debating him.

[Connor]

You kind of are, because you're all together on this.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I'm debating you.

[Connor]

Okay. And I'm putting out to you that your argument is in bad faith because these guys are actually speaking the truth and you're in denial about who's on your side. He wants you, Gum.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I never claim that I'm on their side or they're on my side. I'm here to debate you. All right, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return it here.

[Connor]

Nice to meet you. The question is, immigration is good for America, right? Overall, if you look at the net positives to things like our society, our culture, our food, our economy, general diversity. I know the D word is a bad word in places like this. I think immigrants have been a net positive. I think if you look at your everyday lives, we all benefit from immigration. And what kind of conservatives disagree with that? The guy. Some of the guys who told me to leave this place and go back to, you know, I'm not a citizen.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do you think all conservatives.

[Connor]

No, no. In fact, Ronald Reagan, who is a president I wasn't a big fan of until Donald Trump came along. Now people like Reagan look good in comparison. Reagan said in 1986, Our country is a nation of immigrants. Our immigrant heritage is our strength. He gave an amnesty to 3 million undocumented migrants. He understood the value of immigration. So I'm with Reagan, although this guy is putting his thumb down there. So Reagan's not popular in right wing crowds these days.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, well, he's popular with me.

[Connor]

Good to you. I'm a deferred action of Childhood Arrivals.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Actually, I was an illegal immigrant myself. I came here when I was 10. I'm what you would call a legal alien now. I didn't have any. Any say on my parents. Parents, you know, choices.

[Connor]

Yes. Do I think that they were well meaning by wanting to bring me over for a better future?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Absolutely, I believe that, yeah.

[Connor]

Did they break the law?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes.

[Connor]

Do I agree with people breaking the law? Not necessarily. Do I think that there's ever a.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Situation where you can break the law for the better or the greater good? You know, immigration is an interesting issue because I do agree with you that everyone is an immigrant in the sense. Can you tell me a little bit.

[Connor]

More about your journey? I've been here 10 years. I'm a proud American citizen. I'm a dual national. I'm British, I'm American and I am an immigrant who's contributing to this country. So yes, I'm very much proud of America's immigrant heritage. I'm part of the it. And despite what one of the other people said on the show earlier. Yeah, everyone here, unless you're Native American.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Representative immigrants, sorry, you've been voted out. Please return to your seat.

[Connor]

Thank you, man. Nice to meet you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Actually a fan. I see you a lot on Piers Morgan.

[Connor]

Okay. Thank you for watching.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah. So my argument so is that Americans are what, like what is a nation? A nation is a geographical location full of people who have some things in common. So I think some of the things typically in history are going to be like race, religion, ethnicity, language. These are some of the things that we have to have in common in order to actually have a functioning civilization, especially in self government. I'm not necessarily a giant fan of self government. I'm a Catholic nationalist, I'm not a fascist. You have to have at least some things in common in order to actually have a civilization. And the immigrants, especially illegal immigrants that come into this country now disrespect us. They hate everything that we believe. They don't even speak our language. I watched an. After traffic Trump got elected, I watched an interview of an illegal alien woman crying and about getting deported. And the entire interview was in Spanish. That is a spit in the face. It's disrespect. They don't care about us. They abuse our system.

[Connor]

You've gone from a teleological argument into just a bunch of series of wild, unsubstantiated.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm asking you what is.

[Connor]

I don't accept any of those claims that they hate everything we stand for and I don't accept. Well, I'm not going to deal with the telehealth. I'm going to deal with the false claims that you made. There's no bait. What's your bait basis for saying that all immigrants or all undocumented immigrants hate everything we stand for? It's funny that you said you're a Catholic nationalist. How did most Catholics get to America? Irish Catholics, Italian Catholics, immigration. Much of the people coming across the southern border are Catholics. Are Catholics.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, I know. I don't.

[Connor]

So it's really funny that you say you're a Catholic nationalist. But Catholics came to America via immigration.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah.

[Connor]

So immigration is good for America. You and I can agree. Otherwise people of your faith wouldn't be here.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, we were here on this side of the world, in this continent. Hint from conquest. We came over here and.

[Connor]

But the big surges of numbers, as you well know, because you're a smart guy, Italian, Irish immigration waves. Catholic immigration waves.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay. Yeah. And I'm not even against those. I'm not even.

[Connor]

Were you against those if you were alive?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm not even claiming that a lot.

[Connor]

Of people were against those.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm not claiming immigration is bad in all cases at all times.

[Connor]

What is your claim?

[Mehdi Hassan]

My claim is that immigration, especially now and especially for foreign people that have nothing in common with us.

[Connor]

It's funny you say, it's thing I forgotten your name. My apologies.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Brian.

[Connor]

Brian, yeah.

[Mehdi Hassan]

How many.

[Connor]

In every. In every era there has been a Brian who says, I'm not against immigration, just immigration. Now this is what people said about Italians, it's what people said about Irish folks said about Russians, Poles, and now we're saying about people coming across the southern border because you're not being. You're being a little disingenuous saying, I'm only against immigrants. Now this is a trope because it's A trope that's been used by nativists throughout American history. And every wave of immigrants has come in and faced the same, same hate and animus and bigotry and lazy truth. And every wave of immigration is ultimately assimilated, integrated, benefited the country, in fact, assimilation. Right now, according to Jacob Victor from the University of Washington, assimilation rates based on language and citizenship and naturalization are higher now than 100 years ago.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, let me make a statement first. I think that you and your statement, but you and your, you and your own person are a complete perfect example of why immigration is negative and why we shouldn't allow people who don't have anything in common with us. You're pro abortion, you're pro euthanasia, you're pro.

[Connor]

I'm pro euthanasia.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, you went. I've seen your stuff. You've defended euthanasia. Pro euthanasia, yeah, on Piers Morgan.

[Connor]

No, I've never discussed euthanasia.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, so my point is that you don't agree.

[Connor]

Actually, I'm the guy here, if anyone watching at home, I'm the only guy here who actually supports American values, democracy, free speech, the Constitution. I've got folks here telling me they don't believe in democracy, but they're nationalist.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Wait, why should we, why should we care about that?

[Connor]

By the way, isn't that what America stands for? What does America do? You hate what America stands for?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Not me, I'm not even.

[Connor]

And in fact, all the studies show that immigrants actually are more patriotic.

[Mehdi Hassan]

The only reason, native born Americans, the only reason, the only reason why. Yeah, that's the Mexicans in L. A right now burning it down, waving Mexican flags.

[Connor]

LA is being burned down.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Please don't send us back to the country that we're waving.

[Connor]

I've been in L. A for a few days, I didn't see anything burned down.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, I know the riots have ended, that's because Trump sent.

[Connor]

But if it's burned down, where's it all burned down? I haven't seen it. I've traveled around all of LA. You said LA was burned. Burned down. LA is 500 square miles.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It's not a figure of speech, it's another false claim of burning. No, no, they're burning.

[Connor]

I support euthanasia. Louisiana is burned to the ground. Immigrants hate what we stand for.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, so I'm super. So you're pro abortion.

[Connor]

You're just saying false thing after another.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So you're pro, you're pro abortion and.

[Connor]

I'm standing by position. Immigrants are good for you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You're pro abortion. You're an immigrant.

[Connor]

I'm pro Roie Wade. Personally, I'm not pro abortion.

[Mehdi Hassan]

If you knew anything about me, Roie Wade is. All right, pause.

[Connor]

You've been voted out. I was gonna say nice to meet you, Brian, but I guess not.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Great to see you. My name is Cyrus.

[Connor]

Nice to meet you, Cyrus.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I am also son of two immigrants. Came in legally. I'm also Persian descent.

[Connor]

Fantastic.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Born in la.

[Connor]

Fantastic. Tarangilis.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes. Yes. Well, I am mainly upset not at the immigrants, legal or not. I'm mainly upset at Wall Street. I'm mainly upset at the elites, the special interests. They are the main reason why we've been having this issue since 1965. And I understand most want to do well. There are a few bad apples, we can agree, but we want to go after the elites. They are the main cause of the problem.

[Connor]

Love it.

[Mehdi Hassan]

And just like health care, trade, everything.

[Connor]

Did you know, Cyrus, that the top 1% dodge $163 billion in taxes every year, while undocumented people pay $100 billion in tax? Well, I know where my anger is against.

[Mehdi Hassan]

There are issues with our tax system on the rich. But in a state like California, some taxes are too high. I used to live here. Now in Las Vegas, different debate. Okay.

[Connor]

I'm saying immigration is good for.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Depends on the taxes.

[Connor]

You and me overall are good for America as well.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, but depends on how it's done.

[Connor]

Yes, it depends on how it's done, how it's been done. So us.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm not blaming the housing crisis on immigrants, not on wages. But in a state like California that doesn't build enough homes and they're bringing immigrants in, you have to increase supply of housing. Okay, but this is where our anger is at, is at the political class. The Democrat party used to have a different stance on immigration 15 years ago. Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton.

[Connor]

I'm not a fan of that. I'm not here to defend different Democrats. What I will say is.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That's our angle.

[Connor]

What I will say is that everyone here actually does think immigration is good for America. Everyone here uses an iPhone designed by an immigrant is on Gmail.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Fair point.

[Connor]

Designed by an immigrant is. But watch is on a YouTube show.

[Mehdi Hassan]

We all came to a YouTube show.

[Connor]

Founded by an immigrant. You wouldn't fair point.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But that's a tiny minority.

[Connor]

So you all love immigrants whether you like it or not.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, but it is a taboo subject. Should we be concerned about the demographics?

[Connor]

So no.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Anglo, Saxon, European, American, zero percent of America. It doesn't Matter.

[Connor]

Are they zero percent of them?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Let's say if it becomes zero percent, it should not work.

[Connor]

They're not going to. Why are you bringing weird hypotheticals?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, but there has to. But I mean, they're still part of our country.

[Connor]

There's culture, there's.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I mean, even Britain, like.

[Connor]

I mean, concerns.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But it concerns me when Britain is. Is changing and it's, you know, it's like they're losing their culture, but it's losing their culture. Are they. Are they going to try to.

[Connor]

I'm from the U.K. i'm telling you, no one's losing their.

[Mehdi Hassan]

London is going to be very little British in one day. What's the plan? That's what we want to know. What's the plan?

[Connor]

You just made that up. Have you been.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But how do we know.

[Connor]

Cyrus, have you been to London?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No.

[Connor]

So then maybe you shouldn't come on places you don't know anything about.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But what's the plan?

[Connor]

I grew up in London. What's the plan? London's a very British city. I was in London a few weeks ago. Okay. It's a very British city.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I hope not. I understand that there are people in this audience that don't like me or you in this country, and I respect that. There's some that don't even want me to date a blonde woman. They want to keep to their own or ginger or whatever. I respect that. But there has to be a deal made. There's Idaho, there's Montana. They can go live in a homogeneous society. I don't believe in force.

[Connor]

Okay?

[Mehdi Hassan]

And I believe that there has to be a deal made. And I think there's upsides and downsides to diversity.

[Connor]

There's a deal made. People have elections. They vote for elections. Right? Now there's Donald Trump in the White House. Not someone I support, but people voted for him.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, why did he get in? Mainly because we had 2016.

[Connor]

I'm sure we have 2016.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay.

[Connor]

Part of the reason he got in is the people in this room want people like me and you to leave. And they voted for him to try and make that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm not surprised. One of the Charlottesville marchers doesn't like me. And I've met those people and I respect their views.

[Connor]

You really shouldn't.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, they're once.

[Connor]

Don't respect racists and fascists is my advice to you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, they have their preferences. You know, that's just.

[Connor]

We can't change that. Actually, we can, which is why I tried to come in today. But anyways, all Right, that's time.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Please return to your seat. Thank you.

[Connor]

Nice to meet you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It's my pleasure. My final Jack Daniels is proudly served in fine establishments, questionable joints and everywhere in between. So no matter where you go in every bar, you'll always know someone by name. Jack Jack and co. Shot of Jack Jack Daniels please. Right away.

[Connor]

That's what makes Jack Jack.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Please drink responsibly.

[Connor]

Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Copyright 2025 Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey 40%.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Alcohol by volume 80 proof. This message is sponsored by Greenlight.

[Connor]

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[Mehdi Hassan]

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[Connor]

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[Mehdi Hassan]

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[Connor]

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[Mehdi Hassan]

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[Connor]

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[Mehdi Hassan]

Spotify that's greenlight.com Spotify claim is that.

[Connor]

Donald Trump's plan for Gaza is ethnic cleansing.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So why, why do you say this is Donald Trump's plan? What do you think that.

[Connor]

I mean, he says it's his plan. Plan. Have you seen his plan? He said it standing next to Benjamin Netanyahu in January, February. He said it on Fox News in an interview on Fox. He said it on Air Force One when he was chatting to reporters.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Like word for word. What's an example of what he said word for word?

[Connor]

He said, for example, we're going to clean out the Gaza Strip. He said they're going to leave. We're going to take control of it. He says we'll own it. I would own it. He says, I'm not sure under international law how he can own a foreign piece of land. And when he was asked on Fox News, the people, the Palestinians who are being forced to leave, would they be able to come back? He said, no, they wouldn't. That is the literal definition of ethnic cleansing according to a UN Definition of.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Why do you think that Trump is saying this? Do you think that he has some personal interest in cleansing Gaza? Or do you think there might be some special interest group or perhaps religious or ethnic group that's, you know, that maybe he received money from them and that's the whole reason why he wants to cleanse Gaza. Why do you think that is?

[Connor]

I don't do Donald Trump's motivations. I really don't care. My claim is that what he's doing is ethnic cleansing. Do you agree with that?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I would actually, yeah, probably agree, but I'm just.

[Connor]

You agree that it's ethnic cleansing? You agree with doing ethnic cleansing?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I don't agree with it, but I agree that's probably his plan, But I'm trying to figure out, like, why do you think that is? Because Donald Trump's a white man. He identifies as Christian. I'm not sure if he really is, but what interest does he have in preserving a Jewish ethno state? Why would he have that?

[Connor]

It's a good question. You'd have to ask Donald Trump that question. I've got multiple views. I'm sure you have many views. I'm not sure I like where you're going with your views, but I think Donald Trump is definitely someone who's got financial interests in ethnic cleansing. He's got political interests. He loves the evangelical voters. He get a lot of Christian evangelicals like to support Israel because they think Jesus will come back if all the Jews are gathered in one place with no Palestinians. I think he's gonna make money, he thinks from beachfront property with Jared Kushner. He said something similar in the past.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do you think that's the real reason?

[Connor]

I think there's multiple reasons. Yeah. I think financial, geopolitical, ideological, evangelical. I don't care. My claim is that what he's doing is ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is a war crime according to the Fourth Geneva Convention. It's against international law under the Rome Statute, so we shouldn't be part of that. The United States should not be supporting Donald Trump's plan.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Ethnic cleansing. I agree. What do you think should be done instead with the Israel, Gaza situation? I'm not sure what you're saying.

[Connor]

I would like to see a ceasefire in Gaza. Two states, solutions. I don't really get into debates about what solutions. I would like to see an end to the killing. I would like to see Gazans have freedom. I would like to see the Palestinians in Gaza somehow get their land. About 80% of Gaza right now is under Israeli military control or displacement. I would like to see freedom for the Palestinian people. I'm an American. To go back to the core of this show, I spot American values. One person, one person, free speech.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It really is a religious and ethnic battle.

[Connor]

A religious battle?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, yes, that is what it's obvious between Jews and Muslims. Want control of the Holy Land.

[Connor]

No, it's not.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes, it is. No, it's not. What else? What other?

[Connor]

Actually, the founders of Israel were secular. They Were not religious, actually. And I think some religious Jews, like Bezale Smotrich, who's the Israeli government minister.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It doesn't really matter.

[Connor]

The core of the conflict is over land. It's colonial, it's historic. It is not about religion.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Colonialism is for a reason. The people who want to steal the.

[Connor]

Land want everyone to believe. It's.

[Mehdi Hassan]

My point is, why are we sitting here? Why are we sitting here? It's like a false dichotomy where we have to argue like, do Jews get Israel? Do Muslims get Israel? Why are like, we.

[Connor]

I've never brought up anyone's religion. How many of us. I didn't bring up anyone's religion.

[Mehdi Hassan]

How many of us here are Christians?

[Connor]

I didn't bring up anyone's religion.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Trying to pick sides between Jews and Muslims is taking over Israel. Like, don't you think that.

[Connor]

Hold on, hold on. First of all, I didn't bring up religion. Second of all, you know that a lot of Palestinians are Christian, right?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Some of them.

[Connor]

You're just reducing it to Muslim versus.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, it's majority Muslim. Yeah, it's very.

[Connor]

But there are many prominent Palestinians.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, but there's not that many.

[Connor]

So it's not worth reducing everything to religion.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, it is the reason. Why do you think Iran is backing proxies that want to take over Gaza and, you know, back the terrorism? Gaza? It's obviously because they want to Muslim control of the land. You don't think that's why?

[Connor]

No, I don't think it's about religion. I've been following this conflict for decades. It's not about religion. People who say it's about religion, it's a distraction.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, it's a big part of it. I think.

[Connor]

I think it's become a big part of it. It's been weaponized by bad faith actors. Sure. But I don't think that's the core. The core is that one people, one group of people are dominating another group of people.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But what group of people is dominating another group of people?

[Connor]

One ethnic group is dominating another ethnic group.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What ethnic group?

[Connor]

Jewish people.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes.

[Connor]

Dominating Arabs. Yes, But I didn't say anything about Christian, Muslim, Jew in a religious sense. Jews define as religion and ethnicity. You know that, right?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, why do you think that Muslims want control of Muslims?

[Connor]

I didn't bring up Muslims.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, they're Muslim states. Like, what do you think? Like, Iran wants to do with Iran. But. But that's part of the conversation. What do you mean? No, it's not.

[Connor]

The conversation is Donald Trump is doing Ethnic cleansing. And you agree with that. So I'm not sure why you're still here.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It's part of the larger context.

[Connor]

It's a weird debate when you actually agree with me.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What I was trying to say is we kind of have this false dichotomy here where we're trying to take the. The, you know, the side of the Gazans, which mostly it's a Muslim majority or the side.

[Connor]

I cited human beings who are suffering. I cited human beings.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Who gets control over Israel.

[Connor]

I didn't say that control.

[Mehdi Hassan]

America is a majority Christian country. Should we be deciding? Christians should have control of.

[Connor]

I agree. Donald Trump should not. Nothing to do with religion. Donald Trump should not be deciding what happens to Gaza. That's my claim. If you agree with me, great. Let's shake hands.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Give the seat to someone who disagrees with me. Do you think that America should just cut ties with Israel altogether?

[Connor]

What's your definition of cut ties?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Like stop funding them? Stop being their military arm?

[Connor]

Yes. I'm on record saying. Okay, that was an easier debate. Welcome back, Richie. You really want to be here?

[Mehdi Hassan]

First of all, I really thought that obviously, where we started, where it ended up, there's a lot of aggression. I can see in your eyes. There's a level of exhaustion from being here. This is where my empathy comes in. Where it doesn't is when you have a room full of people that do agree with you. We have this opportunity to come together together, and you're kind of mocking people when they do. So you mock Sarah a little bit when you guys clearly had a common interest and goal to reach. So I can tell you're agitated. I want to bring that all down, please.

[Connor]

I'm guessing you're not going to, but let's see.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, no, I'm going to. I do want to point out some contradictions. First and foremost, I don't believe you're pro American in the value system that you claim to uphold, especially with free speech. If you're not willing to debate people that don't share your values, that's very.

[Connor]

Donald Trump's plan for Gaza is ethnically cleansing.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I. I don't believe it's ethnic cleansing, but I. Because it's not his plan.

[Connor]

It is his plan. He said it's my plan. No, he's called it his plan.

[Mehdi Hassan]

He is obeying someone else's plan.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm not.

[Connor]

Who is he obeying?

[Mehdi Hassan]

He is obeying Israel's plan.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

For the Greater Israel Project, of which this is one of those things that.

[Connor]

We can Agree on. Why is he doing.

[Mehdi Hassan]

We're not. Why is he doing that? I don't know. Maybe they have something on him. Maybe they have something on all.

[Connor]

But you think it's a bad thing what he's doing?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Absolutely. Okay. Yeah.

[Connor]

I have to agree with you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I don't want to shut down.

[Connor]

I'm agreeing with you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, perfect. You know, but I want to take this opportunity because I don't know if I'm going to get the opportunity again to say you're not American. First and foremost, you're not.

[Connor]

Remember what I said. The agitation from you is not going to be low. What I'm saying you came to lower the temperature and then make racist remarks. You know that's a racist remark.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It's not racist.

[Connor]

You tell an American citizen.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But okay, perfect, perfect. You just proved your own point. You just said that was a racist position earlier. You. You argue this contention that America has no race. It's a bunch of immigrants that culminate together.

[Connor]

America has no race.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You inferred it. You absolutely did. So now you're saying it's racist for me to take American nationalist approach.

[Connor]

You're kind of an American national approach. Is that a white approach?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think it's a white nativist approach. Of course only Americans are white. Why did your parents immigrate Americans?

[Connor]

Only white people.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Why did your parents immigrate from India to the uk?

[Connor]

Because the UK colonized and conquered India.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay. Why did you immigrate to America?

[Connor]

Because many reasons.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay. All Opportunity. There's opportunity. You don't know the accent. Your accent is a. Is an afflict of. Of. Of white Anglo Saxons.

[Connor]

You know, there are 50 million Americans in this country.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I understand. But you're.

[Connor]

None of them are Americans in your view.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What I'm trying to get you to do, to reach a common ground here.

[Connor]

We're not going to reach a common ground because you said I'm not American.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Please try. I don't think you're American. I'm saying. I'm saying you're American.

[Connor]

I don't think you're American.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm saying you're not American due to values.

[Connor]

I don't think you're not American on values either. I think you're a little fascisty, a little racisty.

[Mehdi Hassan]

See, you're using these words. Okay, first of all, I want to say this.

[Connor]

I'm not just throwing them at you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You didn't.

[Connor]

Come sit down. I said it.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Every conservative that has ever been shut down by leftists like you, for every conservative. For conservative You've already said for every. Right. Stefan Molyneux, Thomas, Nick Fuentes, all of those people.

[Connor]

Is Thomas American?

[Mehdi Hassan]

He's Australian. But. But, but that's not the point. I'm saying people that are on our side of the aisle that get shut down by people like you because you're leveraging this position of emotion.

[Connor]

You're joking, right?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I'm not. You're leveraging.

[Connor]

My side of the aisle is trying to deport you. The only shutting down is being done by you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

They're actually shutting down is being done by a race. So what are you talking about?

[Connor]

Talking about you're a white genocide guy.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Are you kidding me? You know the fact.

[Connor]

I'm amazed that Jubilee find some of you guys. How do they find you? Do you see? Did they email you? Do you have g. Why are you.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Trying to oust me?

[Connor]

Do you go to Nordstrom? All immigrants? Have you ever been on ebay? You love immigrants.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I'm not.

[Connor]

You love immigrants when they're helping you. You just don't like the color.

[Mehdi Hassan]

We're having a different conversation. All right, You've been voted out. Please return to your seat. Okay. I really wish we could have got.

[Connor]

I mean, you believe in white genocide, so it's very hard to. Hello.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So I'll switch over to the Gaza thing in a second, but first off, I just wanted to touch on that. You said that you support free speech. Of course. Right. So what I'm confused about is you've refused to debate people that I've disagreed with you because you said that they're racist or they're fascist.

[Connor]

Right? No, no, no, no. If we're going to do facts. They said they were racist and fascist. Get your facts right before you start arguing.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So isn't the whole entire point of a debate to debate people that you don't agree with?

[Connor]

I don't debate people who don't see me A, as equal, no point, or B, support democracy? Because that would undermine the whole idea of the debate. If you don't support democracy, as our friend here doesn't and support General Franco, then what is the point of a debate? The First Amendment doesn't mean you have to debate everyone. Somebody comes up to you in the street and starts talking to you, you don't have an obligation to carry on talking to them. I'm sure you go about your business. Business. Somebody comes up to you in the subway and sits next to you and starts ranting in your face, you're not going to start debating. Everyone here has hygiene standards as do you. There are people you wouldn't debate, I'm sure as well.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, so can you please describe why you think Trump is supporting ethnic cleansing of Gaza just because he wants to take over the land there?

[Connor]

How does that, and not just take over the land, kick out all the people? That is the definition of ethnic cleansing.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So isn't ethnic cleansing killing people? Because it seems like you're.

[Connor]

No, you can have to cleanse people without killing. And by the way, they have been killed. More than 50,000 people in Gaza have been killed by the Israelis, by people like Basal Ol Smotrich, who said recently the finance minister of Israel, we are going to Gaza to conquer, cleanse and remain. We are going to annihilate the place. We are going to disassemble Gaza. He said we're going to leave it behind as piles of rubble. That's the guy Trump's funding supporting. That's the guy praising Trump. So, yes, Trump and Smotrich are ethnically cleansing Gaza.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I cannot deny that thousands of people are dying in Gaza. But you need to realize why are they dying? Is it possibly that they're attacking another country?

[Connor]

No. Just because people are dying. We're not attacking another country.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Just because Israel is killing more Gaza and Gazans are killing Israel, it doesn't mean Gaza is righteous and Israel is evil.

[Connor]

I never said anything about evil or righteous. Israel, Israel. I said ethnic cleansing. You said don't they have to be killed? I said they are being killed. And the criteria for what's happening to them. If Donald Trump says these people have to leave and never come back, is that not ethnic cleansing? What is your definition of ethnic cleansing?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I would think ethnic cleansing is when you're killing off a large part of an ethnic group.

[Connor]

That's genocide. You're confusing your terms. Ethnic cleansing is removing one ethnic group using a deliberate policy by violence or terror inspiring means to remove another population, another ethnic group from a certain geographic area. That's the UN definition of ethnic cleansing. That is what he's doing. When he was asked Donald Trump, can they come back? He said, no, they cannot. That is, I think I've heard all these people talk about white genocide today. You guys are nationalists. How would you feel if somebody came, president of France came and told you to leave your land and not come back? Would you not feel you'd been ethnically cleansed from your home, from America?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, well, because my ancestors were settlers here, not immigrants.

[Connor]

They actually, Palestinians are not immigrants in Gaza. They are indigenous people to the land.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Didn't Israel Just give Gaza the land like a few decades ago. No, I'm pretty sure Israel used to have that land.

[Connor]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. They withdrew from 2005 from the land, but control the air. No, they don't give it to them. They control the air, the sea, space, the borders, the population registry. They controlled what went in and out. It was a prison. An open air prison. That's not giving them.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Don't they have a border with Egypt.

[Connor]

And then the Mediterranean and the Israelis and Egyptians. Israelis and Egyptians work together because Donald Trump and Joe Biden and Barack Obama. Yes, they're funded by the United States. Did you know that Muslim countries do bad things too?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, I know that they do bad things too.

[Connor]

Okay, then. So we're in agreement.

[Mehdi Hassan]

All right, pause. You've been voted out. Please return to your seat.

[Connor]

Nice to meet you. Hello, sir. Welcome back.

[Mehdi Hassan]

See you again, Mehti. All right, so I agree that Trump wants to do a cleansing, but not an ethnic one, because that area requires a lot of cleansing. Because when you have a population that was taught from early childhood age to hate Jews, Christians and pagans, you need some serious re education.

[Connor]

Number one, that's not true. And number two, that's not what he's proposing.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, I mean, most Palestinians by polling number, do support Hamas.

[Connor]

They support resisting Israel.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, I mean, the thing is, you know, what did they do in the first place that they're in this, what you call open air prison?

[Connor]

Great question. What did they do to deserve being occupied?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, here's the thing. Because the Islamic Republic in Iran is using them as a tool. What is Iran as a tool for their Islamic expansion?

[Connor]

When did the Islamic. Hold on, when did the Islamic Republic of Iran. You're Iranian? American, I believe.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes, I am.

[Connor]

When was the Islamic Republic of Iran founded?

[Mehdi Hassan]

1979.

[Connor]

When was Gaza occupied by Israel?

[Mehdi Hassan]

19. Well, the very first. 67. Yeah.

[Connor]

So can we do the math together? 12 years before the Islamic Republic of Iran existed, Israel was oppressing, occupying, dispossessing the people of Gaza. So your argument makes no sense.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Were there any terrorist organizations at the time?

[Connor]

The PLO was considered a terrorist organization by the entire Western world.

[Mehdi Hassan]

All right, so what's Hamas there?

[Connor]

Hamas did not exist till the 1980s.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Exactly. My point is, after the Islamic Republic came, it became chaotic because the Islamic Republic started to use the so called innocent Palestinians for their own so called innocent Palestinians.

[Connor]

You don't think Palestinians are innocent?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Not all of them, but.

[Connor]

What about the 17,000 children were killed?

[Mehdi Hassan]

They're doing the same.

[Connor]

17,000 children were killed. Were they not innocent? Were they not innocent?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Who's responsible for that?

[Connor]

Israel. Who dropped the bomb?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hamas is responsible. Hamas is responsible for hiding in hospitals and banking tunnels underneath.

[Connor]

So when children are shot in the head by Israeli snipers, Israeli snipers aren't responsible for that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Look, it's a simple question. Here's the problem.

[Connor]

When Israeli snipers shoot Palestinian children in Gaza in the head, as eyewitness testimony and doctor's testimony which proves that's not the fault of the Israeli snipers, this.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Is a problem, because when you have.

[Connor]

The problem is you won't answer the question. I'll ask you a third time. When Israeli snipers shoot Palestinian children in the head, is that not the fault of Israeli snipers?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, you got to let me finish.

[Connor]

No, you got to answer the question. Fourth time, when Israeli snipers. We're running out of time. I need to know what you think about innocent children because what you said was pretty outrageous. You said innocent Palestinians for the fifth time. When Palestinian children are shot in the head by Israeli snipers, is that not the fault of Israel?

[Mehdi Hassan]

What did the children do?

[Connor]

What did the children tell me, did the children deserve to be shot in the head?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Because the problem is, you know, millions.

[Connor]

Of people are watching.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You say they start brainwashing children. They start brainwashing children at a very young age.

[Connor]

So you support sniping children in Gaza. Look, do other people here support sniping children in Gaza? Is that a conservative position now?

[Mehdi Hassan]

What if they're wearing a suicide vest?

[Connor]

They weren't.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But what if they are?

[Connor]

They're not, though. I have friends who went there. Doctors went to American doctors. They came back as we have multiple children.

[Mehdi Hassan]

What if they're helping? What if they're helping killing you and your family?

[Connor]

A 10 year old child, an 8 year old child, a 6 year old child because.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Because it's bad for you.

[Connor]

You're sitting on their brainwashing television. Millions of people are going to see your neighbors, your friends.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Millions of people don't know what's going on.

[Connor]

Even your fellow right wingers are saying, don't go this far. Are white genocide, sure, but don't.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Millions of people don't understand the brainwashing that is going on in Islamic Republic and in Palestine to create.

[Connor]

You're obsessed with Iran so much that you're supporting the killing of Palestinian children who never harmed you or any other Israeli. That's insane. Look, and the fact that you support Trump's ethnic cleansing now doesn't surprise You.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I didn't say ethnic cleansing. I said cleansing of the land. All right. Because you need to cleanse the land.

[Connor]

Milosevic said something.

[Mehdi Hassan]

You've been voted out. Please return to your seat. First thing I'm going to say is I'm not dying for Israel. Okay. That's the first thing I'm going to say. And I don't like when you come up here and you use the type of rhetoric that you do. You talk like all these like left wing positions. And then you go to the last part, which is I don't support ethnic cleansing in Palestine. I think you're doing a huge disservice to pro Palestinians when you start allowing allying yourself with all these progressives. I don't think it looks good because you have all these conservatives in here who oppose war, they oppose intervention in the same tradition of Pat Buchanan and all the greats that came.

[Connor]

Not Donald Trump though, sadly.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, it is sad. It is sad. I do agree. I mean he ran on an anti war ticket. He said he was gonna. I didn't.

[Connor]

Because he lies. Right.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Are you gonna let me talk or you just want. Yeah, true. So I mean, yeah, you keep, you know, you keep going back to Trump. I don't think this is part of his plan. I think this is a plan of lobbyists. And this is not just unique to Trump. It's been a thing since the Democrats. It's been a thinks it's the Republicans before him. It's. It's been like this since Truman. I don't know if you read like John Mearsheimer's the Israel Lobby or anything like that. Would you agree or disagree with anything like that?

[Connor]

Oh, I agree with Stephen. John Meshermeier. Yeah. Okay, great.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So I'm just warning when you ally yourself with all these leftists and you come up here and you argue for immigration, you argue up here that you know, Trump's this bad criminal and this and that. And then you think Trump's bad too. I think he's good on some questions and bad on other things. But let me get to my point here is you allow yourselves with guys like, you know, Jewish voices for peace and all those guys.

[Connor]

Great people.

[Mehdi Hassan]

People. Yeah. Not really though.

[Connor]

Why?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Because they're self interested in it.

[Connor]

It's not by definition.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, it says, it says it on their home page.

[Connor]

By definition, they're not self interested. Right. They're going against their own.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Are you going to let me talk on their homepage? It literally says that we are here to segregate Judaism from Zionism. It's very clear they're doing this in their own interest. That's why it literally says Jewish Voices for Peace. They're going to be the good Jews who say that we don't support Palestine. And then what happens is you take all these progressives, you go out there and larp in the street, then everyone here who's conservative, they're going to vote for the pro war candidate because they don't want to be associated with all.

[Connor]

The liberals you're forced to vote for pro world people poor.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It's either that or get replaced in my country. What do you want me to do?

[Connor]

Oh, you and your replacement. Bullshit.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, okay, buddy.

[Connor]

Oh, wow. That's three people so far. Let's keep counting. We should be nicer to you, otherwise you'll deport us. What a great argument. This is a free speech. Speech debate, Kevin. It's not your country, my friend. It's our country whether you like it or not.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Mehdi will now choose someone from the circle to debate again for 10 minutes based on a claim of their choice.

[Connor]

I thought Kai was. He smiled, he laughed, he disagreed. I felt like it was good faith. Let's see.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I appreciate him, Mattie.

[Connor]

He seemed to be in good faith. He seems kind of smart and you know, he's one of the few people who doesn't want to deport me. Well, maybe not. We're going to find out.

[Mehdi Hassan]

My claim is we should get rid of birthright citizenship.

[Connor]

Why do you want to get rid of birthright citizenship and how, by the way? Because, you know, it's in the Constitution. I'm so glad you brought this up. Yes, because it was one of my.

[Mehdi Hassan]

The 14th.

[Connor]

14Th. I mentioned it to a bunch of your friends and nobody wanted to engage in the 14th.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah.

[Connor]

Let's talk about the 14th Amendment citizenship clause, which says that if you're born here, you're a citizen of the United States.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yes. And I chose this because it's an extension of the original debate and the immigration debate. Okay. I think birthright citizenship, first of all, when it was originally argued among the people who were actually voting on the clause. Right. It was argued that the birthright citizenship was not automatically extended to everybody who was just born here. And we have a long history of that as well. For example, with the Native Americans who had particular laws that applied solely to them. What I think we're seeing in this country is not everybody is so similarly under the jurisdiction thereof of the United States. Right. And by allowing for birthright citizenship and not intentionally interpreting the Constitution, as we are legally allowed to and restrict the automatic citizenship of anybody who's born here, we actually remove the issue, for example, of family separation because there is no incentive of a family to come over to this country illegally and then have a child, which is contributing to the awful situation we have in America of breaking up families. This is not something that I imagine you or I agree with. No, the issue is birthright citizenship has incentivized that.

[Connor]

So even if I were to concede that in some cases birthright citizenship has incentivized that, I don't know, like the phrase anchor babies, but I'm not naive enough to pretend that there are not immigrants who come here and time the pregnancy in order to get. Of course you and I can agree on that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah.

[Connor]

But that doesn't mean you then rip up a constitutional principle that goes back centuries, goes back before the 14th Amendment. 14th Amendment came about, I think, in 1868, if memory serves me correctly. But the principle underlying it is actually from my other country, the uk Ancient English common law. Right. So this was always the case. The case, the 14th Amendment, as you know, because you seem well read, came along and codified what was already a principle in American and English law, that if you're born in the country, you are a citizen. Now, you mentioned the point about jurisdiction. There is that little bit in there where it says subject to the jurisdiction thereof, that in the debate, if you go back and read the debate that the senators had at the time, they were very explicit that that was to do with foreign ministers and foreign ambassadors, diplomats living in embassies, their kids shouldn't be citizens. Obviously they're here on their own. You know, know the Argentine embassy in D.C. is Argentine soil. So we accept all that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Absolutely.

[Connor]

But when they were asked about Chinese immigrants, Senator Trumbull, who was, I think the chair of the Judiciary Committee back in the 1860s during this debate, he said at the time, Chinese immigrants, children, they are citizens. In fact, 1898, as you well know, we get Wong Kim Ark Supreme Court case, Wong Kim Ark versus the United States. And the Supreme Court says, yes, even the child of undocumented Chinese immigrants, immigrants is an American citizen. So this is a principle going back centuries. So while I can agree with you that there are cases that abuse the 14th Amendment, that there are issues of family separation, I'm not going to rip up a constitutional principle that goes back centuries and is backed by 100, what, 27 year old Supreme Court precedent. Because Donald Trump is looking for ways to cut the number of brown and black people in the United States.

[Mehdi Hassan]

If you don't mind me interrupting, this is where I think it's important as well to go back to what we talked about with the Constitution when we're analyzing. And admittedly, I'm not as interested in the legal argument. There's obviously many ways to interpret the Constitution, but I don't think, especially among conservatives, that it is positive to use the Constitution to dismantle it. When we analyze the original context, like you were saying in the late 19th century, our immigration law was absolutely different, including in respect with the Irish and Chinese immigrants that were coming over. It was absolutely different.

[Connor]

We had open borders. My first friend. Some people in this room would hate it, but we're open borders for half of American history.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, that. I don't think. That's very. That's very. That's very true.

[Connor]

100% true.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hold on. If you're comparing the open borders, which I don't concede to, but if you're comparing the open borders prior to like 1910 and prior to the Hart Cellar act, and you look at the amount of immigration and who is coming over.

[Connor]

This deflection amount is irrelevant. We did have an abortion.

[Mehdi Hassan]

It is absolutely relevant.

[Connor]

Why?

[Mehdi Hassan]

Because the Constitution, like the founding father.

[Connor]

Hold on. Your argument is you had open borders, fewer immigrants.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I was about to ask. Answer. Okay. It's important to analyze the context wherein these laws and parts of the Constitution arise. The original founding fathers said the Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people and is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Which means the people that wrote this document understood that it would not be.

[Connor]

Able to properly for secular people. But let's just be clear on that.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Oh, no, that's not true. They were deists.

[Connor]

A lot of them were.

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, the majority were deists, but they were secular.

[Connor]

Secularism and atheists. Yeah. You know what that means.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I understand that, but deist doesn't mean secular or atheist. It means they believe in a God, but not a God. That's a deity.

[Connor]

I didn't say anything about whether they're deist or theist. I said they're secular. Okay, but secular, separate church and state.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay, well, let's talk. We could even talk about that. That's a perfect example.

[Connor]

You're gonna run out of your own time making your argument. We should have made something.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I understand, but the separation of church and state is now completely differently understood than originally proposed. Thomas Jefferson, who talks about the wall of separation, which doesn't even exist in the Constitution, understood it in A Supreme.

[Connor]

Court precedent, as you well know.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, sure. But the precedent of the last 100 years when the country has been completely different from its founding should not overrule the original intent of the people who wrote the document that you and I are both citing.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Which means.

[Connor]

But I don't. But I'm not. I'm not locked into what the people who write that. We've had amendments to the Constitution. You know that. Right.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I understand that.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

And this is our fundamental disagreement is that I don't believe you think you.

[Connor]

Can read the minds of people in the 1770s.

[Mehdi Hassan]

That's not true.

[Connor]

And I'm stuck.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I just. I just believe this country ought to be more like the country we originally had. And I don't think that's your opinion. You're entitled to.

[Connor]

I understand that, but there's a factual basis to it.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, let me. Let me try to see what you believe.

[Connor]

Okay.

[Mehdi Hassan]

If we are voting on these constitutional amendments, if we are interpreting that them. And our interpretation becomes absolutely, let's say a 180 from what the original intent of the authors of that document is, are you in favor of that?

[Connor]

I guess depends on the issue.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Okay. I would say no matter what.

[Connor]

For example, take the Second Amendment, which we kind of danced around. It's not been come up here and there. You know, the debate about the Second Amendment is. The fundamental debate is one side says it's limited and the other side said, no, no, what they meant was the militias.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Yeah, they didn't.

[Connor]

And they. And they had muskets. They didn't mean AR15s. So we can have that endless debate, which I really don't care for about that. But to come back to your point about the constitutional principles, the 14th amendment comes along in the 1860s, so it's pretty old. It's not as old as America, but it comes along and it's been around for 150 years.

[Mehdi Hassan]

So if you want to. But it was around. It was around before 150 million Americans.

[Connor]

And I'm saying it was around before the United States was even created. It's part of ancient English common law. If you're born in a place, you're a citizen of that place and you're still a child of a foreign diplomat or on a Native American reservation, English.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Common law did not exist simultaneously as millions of people coming across the border.

[Connor]

In a year just to get to principles. Your argument is numbers change everything because we've got so many more people change.

[Mehdi Hassan]

The country not solely, but absolutely the demographics of your Immigration.

[Connor]

Absolutely. Change it. Can I ask you a question? If you got rid of. If you got rid of the 14th amendment, what would be in its place?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think a citizenship task would be fantastic.

[Connor]

What age?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I wish. I think we could administer it in high school to everyone.

[Connor]

Just the immigrants?

[Mehdi Hassan]

No, everybody.

[Connor]

And then if you fail it, you denaturalize white. White American.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Maybe you can't get a government job. I think there's plenty of benefits that the government offers people that you should not be able to receive.

[Connor]

I'll tell you this, right? This is. This might sound bad, and I think people care for me anyway. So let me say something you might not like.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Nobody would pass it.

[Connor]

If you have a high school immigration citizenship test for everyone.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think people will take citizenship more seriously.

[Connor]

The immigrant kids are going to outperform the white kids, and you might actually end up denaturalizing it's some of the white kids. And then people here will be really upset and.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, hold on. And I like to be consistent about this. That's possible. But what I think it would do is it would give everybody a larger sense of the importance of citizenship.

[Connor]

So you would say no one born in this country is a citizen. No one.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Automatically, no. Automatically, no. I think we could extend that. You know, people who have a heritage in the country of, like, why are.

[Connor]

They, until they pass the test, undocumented?

[Mehdi Hassan]

I suppose, yeah. They are not able to receive government benefits. They're not able to receive government benefits. They're not able to apply for these jobs, and their parents are still citizens. Okay, well, hold on. We're talking here about the way that we would implement it.

[Connor]

It's pretty important. If you're trying to get rid of the 14th amendment, I'm gonna ask about.

[Mehdi Hassan]

The practicalities of it, and we're not.

[Connor]

Trump's doing it right now.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Hold on. And I'm not gonna be able to explain it to you in 10 minutes, but what I can explain to you is that right now in this country, we have a crisis of people not. Hold on. We're not understanding what citizenship is. The way that you've referred to citizenship makes everybody who hasn't come to the United States an undocumented American citizen until the time they come over here.

[Connor]

That's how a lot of countries are right. You know, that birthright citizenship is operated by multiple democracies around the world. And of. Trump lies and says we're the only country that does it. He lies. That's not true. Multiple countries.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Do you think it ought to be that way? Do you think everybody in the world is an undocumented American?

[Connor]

Hold on, hold on. Well, or undocumented Canadian or undocumented Brit. Right? Or undocumented. Sure.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Well, I'm an American, so I say America. But yeah, but I'm saying, right.

[Connor]

The principle is you immigrate. We have free. I support free movement. People around the world.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But do you believe they're all.

[Connor]

Are you Kim Jong Un? You think people should only stay in one country and never leave and be blocked from leaving their country? I think there's a very illiberal conservative position.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think there's a big libertarian. There's big room to move between being Kim Jong Un and saying that.

[Connor]

Really. Hold on. Practical terms. Hold on.

[Mehdi Hassan]

If you accept I gave one side, I want to give the other. There's a big room to move between being Kim Jong Un and saying that everybody in the world is an American. They're just not on our soil yet. I think being an American.

[Connor]

Statement. Right. Because everyone in the world is not heading for the United States of America. Yeah. But right now, numbers of people coming in is dropping on.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But the idea that you are supporting is that the moment you come to this soil and that you're born here, you become an American.

[Connor]

And I'm not saying the moment you come to the store, you become an American. I didn't. I had to do the test, okay. I had to do the naturalization process, which is guaranteed by the 14th Amendment.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But the 14th Amendment also says if.

[Connor]

You'Re born here, then you automatically get it. And I'm not saying.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think the problem is a hill.

[Connor]

I'm going to die on the problem.

[Mehdi Hassan]

We have. All I'm saying to you, we don't appreciate citizenship. The problem is that when you talk about immigration like we did before, when we talked about everything before, what were we talking about? We were talking about. About products. We weren't talking about practices or perceptions, which is really what immigration is about.

[Connor]

Can I agree with you? We don't in this country value citizenship enough.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I agree.

[Connor]

I think we should encourage people to have more civics lessons in schools, understand American history and Constitution much more. Here's what's the irony is I'm sitting in a room today where I've met a bunch of people claiming to be Native Americans who hate everything America stood for for centuries.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think they stand much closer to the America that we originally had.

[Connor]

And I think that's a big disagreement there. Had any clue what that was like. But you, you've agreed to dismantling things about that America.

[Mehdi Hassan]

But you've agreed to dismantling that America as long as it's legal.

[Connor]

You have. You're the person who came here and made your argument.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm a constitutional originalist.

[Connor]

Taking away an amendment of the Constitution. I didn't. I said, keep the second Amendment.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I'm an originalist. I think we should interpret it the way it was probably originally interpreted. All right, guys, that's time.

[Connor]

Nice to see you, Kite. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. I thought it would be an interesting exercise in trying to understand what genuine far right conservative folks think. And it was kind of disturbing to see that they think what I thought they'd think, and they were happy to say it out loud. I am disappointed that I had to sit across from people who believe in white genocide, who believe I'm not a citizen. Multiple people here said I should be deported. One of them was even the child of immigrants, which I found bizarre.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Obviously, we were way outclassed. Like, we're not professional debaters.

[Connor]

I don't think anyone in this room.

[Mehdi Hassan]

Was maybe one or two people. And clearly, Manny, he does this for a living.

[Connor]

He's a journalist, so he's really good.

[Mehdi Hassan]

At what he does. Mehdi Hassan was pretty good at, you know, taking cheap shots, trying to, like, you know, derail people from their. From their arguments, you know, trying to, like, pit me against, you know, some of the people that wouldn't like people of my color to be in the United States, which is irrelevant.

[Connor]

I think one person said as he walked off, you'll be the first to go, which is ominous and racist.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I think that was disheartening and particularly discouraging because it just felt like it was fitting into a stereotype that we're trying to fight against against, which is like, we actually have arguments. We can provide good reason, and that rhetoric just pushes that far away. I am, I guess, a far right Republican, but as I learned today, not as far right as I thought I was. You know, someone gets up and they're just like, yeah, I mean, I guess I just want to have, like, autocracy forever and Christian nationalism or just being like, yeah, I'm racist. And to me, that's very foreign of a concept. While I didn't, you know, disagree with most of the people in the circle, it did bother me at times, you know, to see them so say mean things. There's not really a reason to do that. But it also upset me when Mehdi said, you know, I'm not willing to debate with those people.

[Connor]

Free speech doesn't mean you need to give credibility or oxygen or a platform to people who don't agree in human equality.

[Mehdi Hassan]

I hear Mehdi's point about not giving them a platform, but the thing is if you stop giving them a platform, they don't just go away and change their mind. And then you tell the rest of society no one exists who thinks like that. And that's not true.

[Connor]

I do like to debate people, even people I disagree with. I try and avoid bad faith folks. I think some of the folks today were bad faith. You know I'm anti conservative, right? I don't support conservative views on taxation. I don't support conservative views on immigration. But the people here today were way beyond conservatives. This is open authoritarianism and this is what is being normalized and mainstreamed in our country by people in power, by the media, by people who don't know any better.

[Mehdi Hassan]

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