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Am I carrying? The wookies are around me. Stress emotions in a positive way is literally participation trophy disadvantages. I'm annoying. Have you been on your own show? You interrupted me the whole time and now you're just getting the same thing. So me telling you that you are spreading misinformation, that is not fascism. That is just me telling you you're wrong. But you're not telling me I'm wrong because I'm right. From Jubilee Media, this is the Surrounded podcast, where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreers. In the center of today's episod this episode is the English journalist and broadcaster Piers Morgan. He'll be debating 20 woke liberals. Pierce will debate them one on one until they are voted out by their peers and replaced by someone new. Let's get into it. Kraft Mac and cheese is better than 90s hip hop. We'll remind you of your childhood without making you feel incredibly old. Kraft Mac and Cheese. Best thing ever. This episode is brought to you by McAfee swimsuit passport phone with VPN activated VPN cell phone service is going to be spotty on vacation, so we'll be using public wi fi. Sounds sketchy. Exactly. The networks can leave your personal info like credit card numbers exposed to hackers. McAfee's secure VPN lets you browse and bank safely from wherever, whenever. Learn more@mcafee.com online protection. Hi, I'm Piers Morgan and I'm the host of Piers Morgan Uncensored on YouTube. I'm also the author of a new book, Woke is Dead, and today I'm surrounded by 20 apparently still alive woke liberals. My first surrounded claim is that masculinity has never been toxic. One second. How do you do? I'm Piers. So I guess where I want to kind of start is talking about masculinity. So I view this. Do you think that this is, like, socially emergent? I imagine to some degree. Well, I think the truth about the whole toxic debate about masculinity is it's a completely new phenomenon. Before about 30 years ago, nobody ever used that phrase. It's only really in the last 10 years, it's suddenly been amplified and used for absolutely everything. So I thought it might be useful to just start with something that Chris Williamson, you may know him, great guy. And he came on my show recently and he said that all the following things have been blamed on toxic masculinity in the media in the last year and a half. Gang violence, climate change, the financial crisis, Brexit, the election of Donald Trump not wearing a face mask, eating meat, physical fitness, fast food, capitalism, communism, hip hop, smelling of axe body spray, being stoic, risk taking religion, but also secularism and atheism, playing board games, being interested in cars and saying hello or have a nice day. So I have already committed at least one crime because I've already said hello to you. So my point being actually really offended by this. Sorry, I'm actually very offended by that too. No, the thing is, I think the point I would make is, I think in a time when young men in particular, I've got three sons from 32 to 24, I think we've got to a weird place where they feel like they are the most downtrodden, picked upon people in society with good reason in many cases. And a lot of it is down to this where they don't know what masculinity is. My argument is I don't think it's ever been toxic. What's happened is you have men behaving badly, but you also have women behaving badly. And no one calls that toxic femininity. I actually do call it toxic femininity. I think when you look at. I do. When you look at like gender studies and philosophy on this, right, we use this term called masculinities and femininities because we understand that like the, like samurai era of masculinity looks very different than maybe the Knights of the Round Table and whatnot. So we understand that masculinity has so much morphed and shifted and in every form of these masculinities or femininities, there are unhealthy elements to each of them. Could you grant me that? Well, it depends what you mean. I mean, what do you think masculinity is in our society? I think masculinity is. No, no, not in your society. Just generally, what is it? Yeah, in North America, we would broadly view it as like. Well, you can't just say North America. Masculinity is a thing. It's not. It's not like territory specific. It has become that way with a toxic element. But actual masculinity, when it was first devised as a word, it's not an American thing, it's a global thing. Do you think that Athenian masculinity and Spartan masculinity were the same in the Greeks? I think masculinity has never changed. All that's changed is the interpretation of it. And what I can't abide is this modern phenomenon that everything about masculinity, everything about being a man, which I am currently identifying as. Everything about me is supposedly toxic. So I would reject the idea that everything that masculinity is, is toxic. I think that there can be bad elements of anything. What do you like about men? What do I like about men? Lots of things. I think that like the idea of protectionism is good. I think the like willingness to kind of like self sacrifice is very tied to the version of masculine we have. We think that that's a very good thing. I think the like desire to provide is also a really good thing and stand up for like principles and strength. I think all of these things, wonderful things. Well, the issue, like men to be hunters, providers, protectors. I don't really care about them being hunters. Really. How are they going to get all these things to help you and protect you in this economy? I'd prefer them just to be like fiscally capable. Let's go back to the Athenians. Let's go back to Athenians and Spartans though, right? If you want to say masculinity has always been the same. Well, the issue is history would disagree with you, right? In Athens, for example, it was completely normal for you to participate in civility and talk and do philosophy. But Spartan men, for example, wouldn't even touch coins. But they viewed it as a very different thing. What's that got to do with them being masculine? Well, because the version of masculinity that they had viewed certain things like commerce as feminine. If you go to samurais, they viewed poetry as masculine, whereas if you go to like Victorian era poetry is often associated with. Right, right, okay, but what does any of that got to do with toxic masculinity? Because if we look at masculinity, we have to acknowledge that it is emergent out of a society that we are participating in. When I said, well, in North America, you rejected that. And I go, well, that's the foundational piece of this, what we're talking about. Toxic masculinity is essentially a North American version of masculinity that we seem to not like. Well, no, it's not. It's a symptom of, and forgive my phraseology here, but it's a symptom of weak, whiny, woke wastrels who've decided they're going to revise what masculinity is. I think it's a generational trauma. Hang on, I'll give you a chance to respond. And they're going to make all men feel terrible. They're going to make men hate themselves. They're going to make everybody else hate men. And at that point I'm like, what are you doing here? Why would women, for example, want their men to be weak, whiny, woke wastrels? Well, I think the issue that you're neglecting here is the high levels of intergenerational trauma amongst men. I mean, if we go back to World War II, it's followed by the right. We see men dying by the thousands and then they come back and they have ptsd and then they go off again and die by the thousands. And so when we look at like the lack of masculinity and masculine role models, we have to understand this through a lens of understanding that like men have been like scooped out and killed over and over and then when they come back, they're destroyed and there isn't really an answer for men. I agree that there's the systemic lacking of answer on the left for men. In a lot of ways the issue is that we can't affect men. I mean, just to pause. You just to pause. They do, they do. Even movies like Barbie. I'm left. Okay, here's a little secret for you. I'm slightly left. I'm an old fashioned liberal. Do you hate men? I'm not a. You see, they all think probably I'm a right wing headbanger. I'm not. I'm an old fashioned liberal. I believe in liberalism and I believe there's nothing wrong with being feminine or masculine. I hate the way that masculinity has been tarred with this brush of. Everything about it is toxic. I agree, but the issue is that you can't put the baby out with the bathwater. You have to look at things like Victorian stoicism and recognize how that has harmed young men. Because stoicism, that'd be ridiculous. Hold on. Victorian Stoicism, not Greek, not Greco Stoicism. Stoicism generally is a good trait. I love stoicism. Hellenistic Stoicism, not Greek. Well, let me read you something. You've raised Stoicism. The American Psychological association released a set of guidelines to help psychologists work with men and boys in which it stated that male masculine traits like stoicism, competitiveness, achievement is sure of the appearance of weakness, adventure and risk should all be discarded. Now, I would categorize all of those things as the very best of being a real man. Why would you want them discarded? I don't want most of those things. Let's talk about star system. I think we agree with each other. I think you agree with me too. Much. Anyway, it's lovely to meet you. Thank you. Hello. Hi. Pierce. How are you? I'm Ceci. Ceci. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Okay, first, I want to say that I don't think that masculinity is toxic. Great. I just think that some men use their debate over. No, it's not. That's the whole point of my argument. The problem is I agree with you. No, no, because you're talking about a trait, right? So I don't think masculinity is toxic. I think men use their masculinity in toxic ways or hide other traits that are toxic behind their masculinity. I don't agree with that. Here's why. They're not using their masculinity. They're just being bad people. I think there's a clear difference. So then men like Andrew Tate when they are bad people, but then stand like, I'm a protector, I'm a provider, they're using their masculinity. As I've interviewed Andrew Tate a number of times, here's what I think about him. I think he says a lot of things which young men gravitate to, because very few other people are trying to empower them about the way they look. Hang on. No, no, I'm not. Let me finish my sentence. I can have a facial reaction to you if I want to. Right. Actually, that's fair enough. You can look horrified. But here's the point about Andrew Tate is a lot of the things he says, I know why they resonate with young men, because young men feel sort of worthless. They feel disenfranchised by society. They're not sure where to go. Many of them lack father figures. There's chest beating. Andrew Tate saying, keep fit. You know, don't abuse yourself too much. Just women. Well, I'm going to come to that. And so he says all these things, which men go, yeah, that's good. Aspire to be great, aspire to be successful. Do this, work hard and all this stuff. And then you get to his blatant misogyny. Right. He is a terrible misogynist. He thinks that women should be left at home, never allowed to vote. I know. He is never allowed to work. My point is, I agree with you about that trait of his. Right. I think it's horrible. But that's not toxic masculinity. That is actually misogyny. There's a word for it, I guess, the reason. But I think that all of this was fueled by people like Andrew Tate, because, like, you Said toxic masculinity. We've never spoke about this before, but I think the reason it's on the table now is because of men like Andrew Tate. It's not because of women calling men so call it what it is. Call him masculine. Because red pill podcasters, especially during the pandemic, if you were already a loner, you became even more alone. So they needed a community. So everyone's living life online and in these, what they thought was a community because all these men did was validate their shitty feelings that they already had about themselves. It was an echo chamber. And they have to keep them sad and angry, tell them to place the blame on women and minorities so that they get their pockets filled. But here's the thing. They monetized into trauma. You can have your facial reactions. Time out. Go ahead. Politely, politely, go ahead. I think what you're talking about is misogyny. There's already a word for that. It's not toxic masculinity. That's the point of my argument. I don't think masculinity has ever been toxic. I do think some men are horrible misogynists and should be called out, as I call them out. Don't you think some men hide behind their mask? Like, I'm sick of hearing men say we have to protect and provide. Why shouldn't we? Well, no, no, no. But the thing is, is half of you, what are you going to protect me from? Another man. And half of them can't hunt down a job like I don't. Or other women. Or other women. Sure, yeah, other people. But that's the thing I'm saying is that men. I don't understand why. I feel like a lot of blame gets placed on women for all of this, but in reality, you've done it to each other. I don't blame women for. You've done it for two years. I don't blame women for any of this. I think that. Well, actually, that's not completely true. I blame some women who have deliberately, in my opinion, like a lot of men have done too, taken the word masculinity, and they have traduced it into meaning something it was never intended to mean. Like I said, those words which the American Psychological association have deemed unacceptable and should be discarded are all the absolute foundation of what I believe it takes to be a man. Oh, damn it. I wanted you just when we were getting to know each other. Pick me for the last 10. I got a lot to say. I'll think about it. How are you Good to see you. What's your name? Parker. Parker, I'm piz. I've been on your show, bro. Yes, I thought I recognized you. When was that? After the Jordan Peterson Jubilee debate. Yes, that's right, you did. He has quoted us as gaytheists on Twitter. Really? Yeah. How do you feel about that? Well, I mean, I think it was ridiculous. I'm literally straight, but. Oh, you're straight? Yeah. Okay, well then I can understand why you'd find that annoying. Oh, I don't find it annoying. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to use that as an argument. But in general, I will not call you a gaytheist. Okay, in general. The point that I would make here is that toxic masculinity is kind of an over expression of certain masculine traits that we see in this certain context to be harmful. We're not saying all masculine traits are harmful or it's harmful to be a masculine man. It's certain characteristics that we would associate. Which mostly do you think is harmful? Yeah, like for example, an overexpression of stoicism. And I think that a lot of red pill people. What? Wait, hold up, let me explain. I said an over expression. How can stoicism ever be over expressed, ever be a bad thing? Explain to me. Yeah, so again, if you were to specifically hide your feelings and put them underneath specifically for like say the death of a loved one, I don't think that would be harmful. I mean positive. Specifically for you addressing your feelings in that circumstance, I think you should address those feelings, talk about them, express them to loved ones and people that are comfortable, you're comfortable around. That doesn't mean you can't still be stoic. Well then what do you mean by stoicism? Because I'm talking about over expression of keeping down your emotions and not expressing positively, addressing them. Stoicism doesn't mean you have to be an unemotional Spock from Star Trek. That's not what it means at all. Stoicism means that when you're dealt a tough blow in life, you're able to reach inside yourself and deal with it in a strong manner. Right. Which is a good thing. I always quote to my kids. They can all tell you the speech off by heart. There's a scene in my favorite films were the Rocky movies. The first four were great. The fifth one was a turkey. The sixth one came back called Rocky Balboa. And in it, Rocky's son's in his 20s, he's a spoiled brat, he hates being Rocky's son, he's whining about everything. He's kind of pretty woke, weak, whiny, you know, moaning about his lot in life, you know, telling him, woe is me all the time. So Rocky eventually has it out with his son in the street, and he says, look, he says, life is tough. It will beat you down, and it will keep you down if you let it. If you want to win at life, you've got to learn. It's not about how hard you can hit. It's about how hard you can get hit, get back up and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done. No one's arguing against that in general. So that's stoic, but that is stoic. That is stoicism. So. But you're misunderstanding my argument. I'm saying an overexpression of watering down and not addressing your emotions. I think we both agree that would be a bad expression of your emotions. And I oftentimes men view it that way because they say if you address your emotions to any degree, there's going to be, oh, oh, don't be a man, don't cry, be a man. So that's an idea of an overexpression of masculinity that becomes toxic. So you say that. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And so you say so that you agree toxic masculinity makes sense. That's not what I'm saying. So you would find it objectionable to use the phrase man up, for example, in the context in which, like, someone is having a positive address of their particular emotions. And in typical. I wouldn't use it like that type of phrase, you'd say, maybe you should address your emotions in a more positive way. Maybe you should go to therapy. A lot of people should do that. Like, men should go to therapy. It's an important thing that they should do. Maybe that would be positive for them. I've never been to therapy in my life. You should. And I don't cry all the time. I think the last time I cried was about 12 years ago when my grandmother died. I just think this is overdone. We've. No, we just moved from an incredibly stoic generation, say the World War II generation who were literally sacrificing their lives for their country but weren't crying all the time to an era. Now, wait, why are you associating what I'm saying with crying all the time or being weak? You're the one who mentioned crying, so let me just explain what I'm talking about. I don't think it suits anybody to encourage a society to constantly be over emotional either. I'm not saying, I'm not saying you should suppress emotions. And if you feel emotions about something, I'm all for it. I can get emotional with the best normally about my football team, but I don't spend all my time blubbing like a baby. And my argument with the. Well, hang on, I'm going to finish my point. I think that if you look at the woke world generally, there seems to be a premium on over emoting and not enough of a premium in my view of stiff upper lip. Pull yourself together and crack on. Because. Because let me tell you, let me tell you, there are two things you want to worry about in life, really worry about. I say this to my kids, dying and getting a terminal illness. Outside of those two things, everything is surmountable, you can overcome. What about if your partner cheats on you? But what you've got. Yeah, like even that. Okay, so there are plenty of examples we can give where people are going to have legitimate circumstances to cry or sad. I feel like I'm asking you in the circumstance, give us specific what you're referencing in terms of these woke liberals of how they're being too overly emotional. Well, you're talking to me about why you want people to be more emotional. I'm telling you, I don't think that's positive manners. Like go to therapy, like how I told you. Yeah, but I think we over therapy. Everyone I know over here goes to therapy. You haven't gone to therapy at all. How are you over therapy? Why don't you come and talk to me? If you want to talk to somebody, I'll soon sort you out. I can talk to my therapist and we can actually engage in positive reconstruction of how I address things. Yeah. Yes. Actually it's been very helpful for my mental health and my emotional health to be able to talk them through. To be able to talk like, what can I do to make myself feel better in these circumstances? Am I being genuinely real here or am I being a little bit too overly emotional in circumstances? Totally a question I ask my therapist all the time. So if you want to talk about being overly emotional or how to address being overly emotional, how about you just start with therapy? What's your solution? What's your solution? Calm down. I'm calm. I'm totally calm. Wait, do you think me talking fast is not being like calm? You don't want me to get a word in. Right. And I wanted to finish my statement. Right. I just Think people go to therapy too much? Sorry, I do. You may not like to hear it because I just think going and talking to some stranger about all your problems all the time. Get a grip. It's not all the time. Every once in a while you go and talk about your problems specifically so you can address them. Do you not talk about your problems ever with anyone? I look at Parker. This is the problem I talked about. Parker, stop talking. I look at you and I see somebody who's confident, you're a good talker, you're obviously intelligent, you've obviously got a lot going for you. Stop spending all this money, going to see some stranger to go over everything. And it's not that much money to be able to go every once in a while to go see a therapist. For me, specifically in my life, I've never been to one in my life. You can. It's not much money for you. You could easily go with the money that you make and go talk to a therapist. I understand you don't want to. Everyone says that specifically before going into it. I said the same thing. But I'm telling you, you can actually address your emotions in a positive way. And also, Parker, here's what I'd rather do. I would rather honestly have groups of people like you in the woke world. Right. Who clearly are struggling with regular life. Right? I'm not struggling with regular life. Everything's a calamity, everything's a problem has to be overanalyzed, over, dissected, over therapized. And I just think you've all got to be given the mental tools to deal with ordinary life. Ordinary life. We already have gone therapy to do that, let me tell you. Yeah, but without going to therapy all the time. Wait, what's your solution? What's your solution, people, I think at school and colleges we need to reinforce this comes back to masculinity with men. We need to reinforce the mental tools required for life. Such as? Well, I can tell you when I can chart the absolute descent of this in the wrong way. When and I think it began in America when you started giving kids participation prizes for coming last a sport. Absolute shambles. I mean, who ever thought of that? How does this have to do with actually men making their emotions better off Participation? Oh my gosh. I'm explaining because if young men, people are conditioned to think that if you come last at something, you get a prize, it is the worst possible preparation for the real world. What's the actual solution? You're just telling a problem again, problem Problem. Problem. What's the solution? If I could finish my sentence, start with the solution. Solution is you just stop talking for a moment. Right. How about you actually provide a solution? All you've done is bring about problems. Parker, I've just given you a solution. I want to. I want. That's not a solution, that's a problem. You stop participation prizes. You condition kids to deal with the real world when they become adults. Otherwise, when they get men. Not having the ability to dress the positive way is literally participation trophies not being disadvantages. So annoying. Look, have you been on your own show? You interrupted me the whole time and now you're just getting the same thing. Well, because you just stopped talking like a robot. Don't be mad, Parker. Are you mad? No, I'm trying to finish my sentence. It's okay. Parker, come on, calm down. You're shaking. I'm totally calm, Parker. I'm not shaking at all. Parker, you're shaking. I'm not shaking. Why do you have to act like I'm. Here's my point. Why do you have to say something delusional to try to deflect away from the fact that you haven't addressed anything meaningful here? Parker, My point is there's a brilliant book by Jonathan Haidt about the impact of smartphones on young brains, right? And it goes back to 2010, when smartphones became smart. In other words, you could access absolutely everything. And I look at what happens on my feed each day, I'm horrified about what may happen to younger, more impressionable brains. Right? And so young people's brains have got scrambled. So since 2010, there's a direct correlation of young people who get ever more anxious, ever more depressed, in some cases, tragically, ever more suicidal. And it's been driven by this constant negative dopamine. So partly I understand why what I call the weak, whiny, woke wastrels are like they are because they're constantly getting overloaded with negative dopamine, which is making them think the whole world's about to end. In fact, as Steven Pinker has explained in great detail, statistically, this has never been a better time to be alive. There are fewer wars than in recorded history. People are living longer and healthier than in recorded history. There's less child poverty than in recorded history. Water is cleaner than in recorded history, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The problem is social media amplifying all the bad stuff going on, making young people think the world's about to end. It's not. So I would like young people to be given the proper tools in their education process to enable them to deal with the real world and make them catastrophize less. I do think in this country, as in my country, young people are overmedicated. I think they go to therapy too much. I think they end up over analyzing and over self obsessing. I think it can make them quite narcissistic. It's all me, me, me, me, me, me, me. And woe is me, woe is me, woe is me. I think we've got to a place oddly in society where losing is deemed to be better than winning. Where winning is something actually better. To be a good loser and get all your mates to like you going, oh my God, I just failed my driving test for the 20th time. But I'm so proud of myself. I'm like, you're a terrible driver. Get better, right? So it's all about how you treat these things. And out of it, hopefully I would produce a nation of people like me. Parker. I would love to be able to respond. Perfect way to end. I'd love to go first one. Nice to see you. Good to see you. My next limu imu and Doug. Here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual insurance company and affiliates Excludes Massachusetts. Wayfair's big sale is returning. Get ready for way day for four days only, score up to 80% off all things home with free shipping on everything from October 26th through 29th. 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My issue with this claim is I find associating wokeism with fascism to be quite ironic. Wokeism to me is a term that's used, a shorthand, pejorative term that's used to describe left wing cultural politics. And I think the term wokeism and people on the right often use it as a means to deflect and distract from class politics. And there's a very key example of this. So the Department of Government Efficiency Doge, this was something that you actually celebrated quite a bit when it initially came into office. Elon Musk was coming in to root out waste, fraud and abuse. Obviously they found zero instances of fraud. To the extent they found waste, it was just stuff that they ideologically disagreed with. And there were all these programs they were cutting, for example, like LGBTQ programs in Latin America, et cetera. And we were celebrating this all as a big victory. But this was all a distraction because what the agency was actually doing was destroying the National Labor Relations Board, a board that is designed to protect workers abilities to unionize. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, a bureau that is meant to protect consumers from billionaire capitalists like Elon Musk. These institutions, along with the irs, all of these institutions meant to actually protect and put a check on capitalist billionaires like Elon Musk and the consolidation of fascistic power in our state. All of that was being distracted by this term wokeism. And I think that like when, when you obsess, when you obsess over things like trans people in sports or DEI policies and xyz, it is a deliberate means to distract from these very real issues 100%. Well, let's take, let's take what you just mentioned, trans athletes in sports. Do you think it's a good idea? Not necessarily. I mean, it either is or it isn't. So it depends on which sport. And it depends on which sport. But notice, but notice what you're doing right now. Right? You mentioned it. I didn't mention it. Well, what I mentioned is that these are all a means to distract. And I'm experiencing. Can you at least, very least acknowledge that you did, that you, that you, that you did celebrate doge despite it rooting out all of those that actually impact American. I'll answer you. I thought the cutting government waste was a good thing, sure. Do I think it was well executed? Not particular. Sorry, you've got to let me finish. Go for it, go for it. Do I think it was well executed? Not particularly. You know, Elon left pretty quickly and the government just carried on spending a ton of money. You know, Do I think some of the things they cut were wrong? Yes, I agree with you. Do I think all of them? No. I think they did find examples of ways. So, you know, if you had a proper, consistent, ongoing doge mentality which cut genuine things which we all can agree are probably a bit wasteful, I'd be all for it. Do I support everything they cut? No, I don't. But given you mentioned the trans thing, because I hear a lot from the woke left and I try and say to them, look, if you want to know why Donald Trump got reelected, your worst nightmare coming true, and you all sit there on election day thinking, how on earth has this happened? Well, one of the reasons was he just stood there. You can shake your head, but one of the reasons is he stood there and went under me. If I get elected, then I am going to ban trans athletes from women's sport. Yeah. No, no, wait. Can I just respond? No, I'm going to add one thing to it, then you can respond. If you remember, Kamala Harris endorsed it, thought it was a good idea. So the first potential female president of the United States thought it was fair and equitable and safe that biological males compete in women's sport. Trump understood that most people in America, most people around the world outside of the woke left do not agree with that. And there's a reason we don't agree with it. Let me finish. The Olympics are coming here, right? To Los Angeles. And you're also wrong about Iman Khalif, by the way. Yeah, well, I'm not wrong about Iman Khalifa. Well, Imam Khalif was banned from the world championships. She's a Nigerian boxer banned from the world championships because of testing positive for male chromosomes. Right. That's not true. Well, it is true. There was a wrong. You may not want to believe it, but it is true. So the. So the International Olympic Committee said that Iman Khalif was both born female. She has a female passport. Algeria. You think Algeria. The state of Algeria recognizes trans identity. Really, Piers? Like, let's be honest with ourselves. The. The only institution, the male. No, the institution that claimed that she failed an unspecified gender or sex identity test was some Russian backed organization that is not internationally recognized by the International Olympic Committee. But wait, but why? Let me reset. Say Something and me not challenge you. I know, I know. But that's exactly what you did earlier. I just. I just straightforward. All Imam Khalif has to do is take a session. Sure, sure. Okay. They're now bringing the success in. I don't. Then there's no problem. Why do you think Imam Khalif is not sure? I don't want you to distract from the fact that the election. There is no evidence that people voted based on their opinions on trans. Let me give it to you. No, wait. No, wait. Let me. Let me. In a Gallup 2024. No evidence. Yes. In a Gallup 2024 poll post election, out of 22 issues. Trans. Trans issues ranked 22 out of 22. Can I ask you. In every election in all OCD countries across the world, inflation and the economy. Yes, but I just let you go on. No, let me just respond to you. Sure. Actually, if you read the New York Times the week after the election. I did read the New York Times. Then you will remember a deep dive they did into it. Wait a minute. That's talking. You want to talk all the time. Sorry, sorry. Show me some respect. Sorry. There was a New York Times report into a particular commercial ad campaign ad that the Trump side put out and they originally started it in a few sports arenas. They got bigger and bigger and bigger. And the ad was basically a 30 second mashup of Kamala Harris endorsing trans athletes in women's sport and in women's spaces and so on and so on. And it ended with Kamala is for they them. Donald Trump is for you. The New York Times said that they believe that moved the needle. They're reporting by as much as 3 points. Based on what information? Ask the New York Times. No, that's not. You understand news agencies aren't conducting polling about my finish. That same article cited the Gallup poll that I just identified where trans issues rates. But they said it one ad move the needle by three points. And based on one information polling. If you poll people on what issues that they cared about in the. In the 2024 election, all of it was centered around economy and inflation. Okay? And this is just obvious because this is a global phenomenon. Every. Every incumbent party across the world lost election. A lot of Democrats and. And people on the woke left in particular have tried to assure me that absolutely nobody cares about trans athletes in women's sport. People care. The right cares. But let me tell you, a voter cares more about what's in their pocket. My question for you is. And you're doing exactly what I claimed you were doing by using wokeism to distract from class. My question. My question for you is this. I interviewed a woman called Betty Yee a couple of weeks ago on my show. She's a candidate to be governor of California, and she endorsed in my interview, gender neutral Olympics when it comes to Los Angeles. Now, that, to me, is where the woke mind virus takes you to complete and utter insanity. Because if there was a gender neutral Olympics and this woman might be governor of this state, does she have any control over the Olympics or the policies of the Olympics? Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Is she impacting. Talking about the mindset that says that actually gender neutral. Do you agree with me? Can we reach a point of agreement that. That would be absurd. I. I don't. You know, it. You don't know. It depends on the sport. It depends on the sport. She specified some sports. She specified track. And. True. But guess what? I don't care what some. You don't care about women losing. No, no, no. This is a. This is a governor's position. This is a state representative who is a mayor. What's your opinion do. Honestly, it doesn't matter. It does matter. No, because this person has no institutional power. And this is exactly what I mean. When you champion Elon Musk and you're like, oh, my God, he's correctly identifying the woke mind virus and all and doing X, Y, and Z, you're distracting from the very real issue that we have. Billionaire. You're not distracting. No, this is. Answer my question. We exist in the conversation of a larger. Evan, answer my question. It depends on the sport. Give me a sport where it would be fine. Archery. Good to see you. How are you? Good to meet you. Pierce. Good to meet you. What's your name? I promise, Mason. Mason, I do not mean this as an insult. No, please follow me. You seem way more comforting in person. Like, you look one. You look taller on your show, and you have this very, like. I'm six foot one. What are you talking about? When I saw you walk in. I don't know. Maybe you just look like a giant on your show. Thank you. I don't know how to take that, but I'll take it as a comment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I really want to make sure that we get our definitions correct first. When you say that wokeism equals fascism, would you say that's, like, the claim diluted into, like, a small. Let me explain what I mean by that. Okay. And I've talked about this a lot in my book Woke is dead. And again, just to remind you, I come at this as a pissed off liberal who has nothing in common with the woke left. And once the woke left to actually come back to a more commonsensical, electable position, actually. And here's what I think about what wokeism became. It began in the 60s in black American music. In its origin, a great thing. It was about raising awareness for social and racial injustice. By that criteria, I'm happy to say I'm woke, but that's not what's happened in the last few years. In the last few years, for a combination of reasons, one of which the pandemic sent everybody nuts. Everyone was at home drinking too much on the Internet, firing off all their ridiculous views, and just got into Rabbit hol and so on. But we can leave that. But wokeism is supposed to be a celebration. You would, I would think, agree. Yeah. Well, hang on. Well, hang on, hang on. Supposed to be a. Hang on. You're the person in the center. Can I. Can I talk a little bit on my three minutes I get before I'm voted out? I haven't made my point. Okay. Do you agree that it's supposed to be about liberalism, about being a liberal? I would say that the idea of wokeism is kind of an evolution from a bunch of different turns that have been used to throw at the left specifically. So, like before wokeism, it was critical race theory. Before critical race theory, it was social justice. There's a lot that the right specifically, and I know you say that you're not the right, does it celebrate. It's a reactionary. It's a reactionary response towards the elevation of certain groups that has historically been silenced. But does it celebrate liberalism? I don't think so. I don't think it has to. I think a lot of it also has to talk about class solidarity, which typically is. Let me give you a little Latin lesson, because the Latin was liber, meaning free, and also the root of liberty, meaning the quality or state of being free. And liberalis meaning courteous, generous, gentlemanly. I love these definitions. Wait a minute. Can you describe. You asked for a definition. Can you describe fascism? I'm giving you one. That's really what I want to talk about. I know what fascism is. Wait, what is it then? Enlighten me. Can I finish telling you what liberalism is? No, I know what liberalism is. Well, you don't think you do, because if you're a woke left, they don't understand what being a liberal actually means. I do. What? Being a liberal, I Do. So let me explain to you the definition of a liberal. Include one who is open minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional or established forms or ways a person is willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own, favorable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms and concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience. Now what part of that do you think the woke left have adhered to in the last five years? But I need to know what that. Why is it fascist? I'm about to tell you. Okay, so the woke left have basically said we hate fascists, we hate Nazis. In fact, we think everyone we don't agree with is a fascist and a Nazi led by Donald Trump. That's an insane general election. He voted for Trump. Led by Charlie Kirk, led by all these people. Can I tell you where. Wait, a replica. Let me finish my point. Then you can respond that they're all a bunch of fascists. They're all a bunch of Nazis. And I kept warning the woke left as a pissed off liberal, stop over demonizing people by using the word Nazi and Hitler and fascist. It is ridiculously self harming to yourselves and it leads actually to young deranged minds like the assassin of Charlie Kirk to actually put anti fascism slogans on their bullets and to murder people for their speech. Right. So wokeism in the end, in the last few years transformed from what was supposed to be a celebration of liberalism in many ways into a form of fascism. Why do I say that? Because it conditioned people that you either adhere to our narrow worldview you and if you don't, we're going to shame you, vilify you. Look, all the flags. I didn't even get to. I'm going to let you respond. I'm going to lose my time, cancel you or in some circumstances we're going to kill you for your free speech and opinions. And that is where it became in my opinion a very dangerous. But it just sounds very deluded. It sounds like you're trying a fascist. It sounds like. Which is ironic because wokies say they hate the fascists. It sounds like you're trying to correlate fascism with authoritarianism which is control of speech or control of how people interact or control of behavior. Fascists do control speech. Right? That can be a part of it is the authoritarianism. But the specific part of fascism is specifically trying to preserve a hierarchy based on either shared ethnicity or shared culture. That is the idea of elevating one specific group into the top. No. Yes. You are so you're telling me that Hitler would have been wearing a BLM shirt or Hitler would have been wearing an anti. Because wokeism is not fascism. Fascism is specifically dealing with one particular group they're elevating to the top of the hierarchy who identify. That's what we saw in fascist Italy. That's what we saw in Nazi Germany. That's what we saw in imperial Japan. But Mason, none of that correlates with the elevation of particular groups that have historically been silenced, which is the idea of what progressivism is. I hear you. I reject the idea of wokeness just because wokeness again is used as that insult that is elevated from different insults that have been thrown in the. Respectfully, I think wokeism has become one of the worst scourges in the world. Yeah, because I think that there's been a successful campaign to basically attached by the woke left. No, it has been to attach all of these pejoratives to a idea of emancipation from silent groups. That's the idea. The idea. Silent about. Yes. The idea that we should bring people to the table. Any of you? No. Ever. You never stop. That's why I hear so much about cancel Culture, about how everybody gets cancelled when they're millionaires with podcasts that talk about this shit every day. The best quote I have in my book woke is dead. And clearly it's still slightly alive here. But the best quote, I had an Australian woman come up to me in the streets in London and she said, Mr. Morgan, do you mind if I just say something about these wokies? I went, sure. She said, they just want to suck all the joy out of life. And I went, God, you're so right. That's exactly what they do. What do you all. Sucking out? You are collectively. Stop. Insane. Slurs. Sucking out the joy of life. You want to say slurs that bad? I don't want to say slurs. Well, you are. That's like. But you are collectively the most joyless group of people. People to ever want. I'm pretty, I'm smart. My cracking jokes. My advice is I could get a beer with you. My advice for all of you is I think you need to relax a little bit. Collectively. A bit of. A bit of. I know you love a bit of Zen. Zen. Calm down. Take a chill pill. Right. See the funny side of life. Pretty sure. Respect other people's opinions. Respect my right to have different opinions. I think that you dress this like nightmare scenario around you and then you start countering. No. Then you start cowering at the own demons. That you. That you set up. It's funny that like are the caring are the carrying in his room. You're saying they're the joyous people in the middle of 20 hardcore. They are joyless. They're ruining the joy of life. They're sucking out the happiness. They're sucking out the happiness society. That's the idea is. Yeah. You're saying the happiness is being sucked out by woke people. I think it's just a joyless bunch. He should lighten up a bit. That's an insane over generalization. That's how I feel about british people. But good movie. Hello. Hello. I'm Anne. Hi, Anne. You're piers. I am Piers. I do want to kind of touch on the last thing that you and mason talked about. I think the idea that the woke left is just this soulless, joyless majority of the left, at least now is what you seem to be making it out to be. I don't think it's the majority. It's the noisy part of the left. Okay, okay. I actually think I can agree with you there. I think it's a loud, loud minority of what you're calling the woke left. I think what really wokeness comes back to is that idea of fighting for equality, speaking up for people who don't have a voice themselves and advocating on their behalf for their rights. And I think that you don't. Do you identify as a woman? No, but I think that's tangential. What do you identify as that's tangential to this conversation? No, no. It's actually very relevant to what I'm about to say. No, I don't think my identity is relevant. What do you identify? What if I started bringing up the fact that you're british and you're here talking to a bunch of americans in America. Great. That would be completely irrelevant to this whole point. Very irrelevant. We're talking about Americans. In fact, the last guy to sit at this desk used british as a slur against me. So yes, I mean, absolutely fine. But I've risen. Might have been justified. I haven't run to my therapist. I've risen above the slur. That's great. I'm not going to report him to. I'm not going to report him to the authorities for using a racial slur. I've moved on. That's great. But I just. My point in asking you what you identify is. Is you're talking about equality. The wokeism is aligned to equality. And yet where does that equality apply? If for example, and we've touched on this already. If you are a woman athlete in sport, where's the equality in having a biological man compete against you when they have a physical advantage? Okay, look, I think. Well, that kind of strays away from what I'm saying. Do you think that's equal? Do I think it's equal for men and women to play in sports if there's an advantage? That's like, far above the threshold? Yes. No, I don't think that. And you understand that's why we separate the sexes in sport, because men have a physical advantage. To an extent we do. To an extent, they just do. Okay, then answer the question about archery. What do you think about archery? Do you think that has to be a segregated oath? I've read a report. And correct me. Someone, I'm sure will correct me on the Internet. I read a report that if it was a gender neutral Olympics, women may end up with two bronze medals in the entire Olympics. Wait, okay, but I think the point. Hold on, Wait. Two medals? I think the point in the entire Olympic. Olympic Games. In other words, it would be the. Look, I'm not advocating for. No, I'm just saying gender neutral. It would be the destruction of women's sport. That's why we separate the sexes, and that's why the issue matters. Sorry. Lovely to meet you. Thank you. Excellent. Nice suit. Great to meet you, sir. What's your name? Nick. Nick. Nice to meet you. So, look, the prompt was about the equivalency between wokeism and fascism. The key difference. Well, to be clear, the prompt. Actually, my real point is if you want to brand everybody fascists, you can't behave like fascists yourself. But the key difference is fascism uses the power of the state to impose their. So does the woke left. Wokeism does not. Oh, it does. Was anybody deported for being woke during the Biden administration? Here's my answer. Does anybody get rounded up in the streets for their opinion? Did anybody get canceled because the FCC said you're being too woke? No. Can I answer? It doesn't happen. Can I answer? Of course, of course. Actually, the woke left have deployed the power of the state many times. Look at the pandemic. Look at the pandemic. How is that wokeism? I tell you how it's woke. Diseases are woke. Now, wokeism is where you take things which are not actually science based. For example? For example, the efficacy of masks. Right. And by the way, I feel guilty of this myself. I'm not saying I'm whiter than white about this. So masks are woke. No, no. They can be the woke mentality. I'll explain why. I'll explain why. When a government says that if you're seen without a mask during a pandemic, you can be fined or punished, you're way too smart to be. Wait a minute. I'm giving you the argument which I ended up accepting. Right. Which is in a fast moving pandemic, when the scientific advice changes so rapidly. I fell victim to this myself. I was very censorious to people. But you can't deny that. That the state had a mindset of you will conform or we will punish you. And it turned out they were making people. That's simply not true. It is true. You may have felt uncomfortable being unmasked in public because people would say, hey, I didn't. Courtesy of other people. I didn't. Nobody got fired. Nobody lost their job. Nobody did get fired and did lose their jobs. No, all that stuff got overturned because we are a nation of laws. People did get fired. They all lost their jobs for not wearing a mask. They were told they couldn't come to work. Who? Thousands of people. Okay, so these nebulous people lost their job. To be clear, you don't think anybody lost their job in the pandemic for refusing to wear a mask or refusing to be vaccinated? I think that people who are public facing situations where they could have easily taken a scientifically proven preemptive measurement. It wasn't proven. Yes, it was. No, it turned out not to be proven. That's my point. And yet the state driven by a left wing Democrat president. So me telling you that you are spreading misinformation, that is not fascism. That is just me telling you you're wrong. No, but you're not telling me I'm wrong because I'm right. Okay? No, you're just not. And we're not gonna re litigate. Covid, that's now years ago. At this point. The key point is, is it fascism? It is not fascism. You gave your very long definition of liberalism. Wokeism is about everything on that list that you described as being liberal. Really? It's about standing up for other perspectives. It's about listening to other people that have not traditionally been listened to. Oh, you don't listen to anybody. What are you talking about? Of course you don't. You said yourself wokeism started about just acknowledging social problems. I think it's woke that's originally Middle America's jobs have been shipped overseas. That's woke to recognize that there's larger social problems. I don't just police Brutality. Recognizing that there's a problem with the institution of policing. That's woke. It's not fascist. Would you defund the police? No, absolutely not. Well, that's woke. Not defunding the police is woke. Calling for the police to be defunded is one of the worst things the woke, including Mamdani. Okay, this is like a new mayor of New York City called for the. Your first quote was toxic. Masculinity has always meant one thing. Now you're saying woke used to mean one thing, but now it means a different. Yes. So words only have one definition. When they suit you. No. But when they don't suit you, they change. And obviously, obviously, you said. You said that wokeism is a form of liberalism. Right? You said that. Yeah. Everything I read. Wokeism is a form of liberalism. Just to remind you, a person who is willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own. The woke left, famously, I would say, infamously, never accept anybody objecting to anything they say. We confront bad speech with better speech. Ah, you confront bad speech with better speech. No, you don't. By denying the efficacy of MAX and vaccines. And I'm telling you that's wrong. No, I just. I'm not saying you should be canceled or you should be imprisoned for that. Actually, if you want my honest view, I do not think the efficacy of masks was ever proven. In fact, I think most of the evidence now suggests they were pretty pointless. Secondly, on vaccines, I think they saved millions of lives. But I do think it was completely misleading of the government here and the government in the UK and other countries when they stated as a scientific fact that if you had the vaccine, you couldn't transmit the virus. The measure was whether the health care system would be overwhelmed. Wait a minute. The health care system did not collapse. It worked. That was all it was supposed to be. It wasn't that no one would ever get sick of it. I'm making the point that when you issue government mandates and it turns out you were wrong, for example, when they said you cannot transmit the virus if you have the vaccine, it turned out that wasn't true. Do you accept that? I do accept that. So there were lots of things they said which turned out to be wrong. I would rather err on the side of caution with a disease that killed millions of people around the world. That's just me. Hey, Nick. As I did. And in fact, I was very censorious to people who took the position. I'm now taking the position again. It's not being censorious. We're having this debate in a public forum. I'm not saying you're not allowed to, to speak about this. I'm just going to tell you you're wrong. I'm making the point that I was wrong at the time about those particular parts of it. We can agree that the vaccines broadly, I think, worked. But we can also agree the scientists got it wrong about masks. They got it wrong about the efficacy of transmission with vaccines. These are things we should be able to come together on. Hey, this is great to meet you. Really good to see you. My next surrounding claim is a gender neutral pronoun are pointless. Hello, how are you? Good, how are you? Good, thank you. I'm Jeremiah. Okay, so. Oh, I bet you didn't know that you were coming to a therapy session. I am a therapist. Great. Yes. Finally, finally, finally, finally a missing link in my life. Yes. So I would argue that pronouns, people being, wanting to be referred to the pronouns that they want actually aid them in their self esteem improving and their validation and affirmation in life and their lives obviously are lacking a lot of other things. It's like nobody cares about pronouns. What would their life be lacking? What pronouns are yours? I'm, he, him. Okay, so you're a bloke. Yes. Okay. Why do you need to call yourself he him? I know what you are. You're. You're a man. Right, But I think that you're talking about people that do you feel affirmed by the fact you call me he, himself, him. I'm talking about other pronouns. So like they them Z. Well, they then. All right, they then. Yes. There's one person saying call me they them. But okay, well they them is a plural, right. How can you be more than one? So guess what? What about. What about someone nine I mean, call me stupid, but someone that's non binary. Who can engender. What does non binary mean? I'm explaining it right now. Who have, who can engender both masculine and feminine traits and that is their third gender, if that's what they want to be called. Why is it so hard for you and other people to call them what they want to be called? I just think it's all bullshit. But I'm asking you, why can't you just call them what they want to be called if that's what they want to be called? Because I don't want to. So then, so how are you being empathic if you don't want to call them what they want to be called? I don't care. But so empathy. So empathy is a muscle that you could develop in therapy. So if you went to therapy, you'd have developed that muscle? I can't think of anything I'd rather less develop. Well, when someone, one human being says to me, call me they them, I laugh. It's absurd. It's one of them. And that shows that you're not empathic. I asked a non binary person who was a guest on my show recently, what does non binary mean? She couldn't explain it. Okay, so it was actually torturous. So that's her. But the thing is, why don't you get someone on your show who can explain it? How many pronouns are there? Multiple. How many? I don't know. I'm not an expert in that. The last count is there are 74 official ones. Do you know? Okay, you're gonna say cat and dog. I'm a cat, I'm a dog. I'll come to those. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Probably kind of talk about gender pronouns. Yes. So am I. There are 74. One of them is astral gender and affinity with space. Where are you getting this information? Official genders. Google it. Literally google it. Have you had someone on your show who said, I'm an astro, whatever I actually got one on. No. And did you pay that person to go on, like. I mean, it's a lunacy, the whole thing. It's like kids identifying as cats at school. You know what I would do with them? That does not happen. It does happen. That is some bogus, like, media presentation. No, that does not happen. No, it has happened. Read my book, Woke is dead. It's all in there. I don't know how to read that. There was a phenomenon called the furries. You know what it was? Kids would go to school. You know what furries are? Furries are not a gender. That's its own kind of lifestyle. It's like people in outfits. But this is where, with all due respect, this is where limitless self identity takes you. It takes you to the absurd. For example, do you believe, Let me ask you, do you believe that you can identify as anything you like? No. Oh. What are the exceptions? I think that most people that when they think about their gender identity, it's he, him, she, her, they, Z. Those are the ones that people are. Z is. Oh, God. Now I can't explain it. No. But Z, you no idea, have you? It's all complete baloney. What's Z? I have no idea. And you're the guy trying to defend this nonsense. Here's my other question for you. Right. It used to be LGBT, then it was LGBTQ. What is it now? What's the. It's LGBTQ. Or it could be LGBTQIA. 2s. 2 spirit. Right. And what does it stand for? 2 spirit or the 2. The whole thing. LGBT. Read the whole thing. LG. Lesbian, gay, bisexual, LGBT. Trans, queer, or questioning LGBTQIA. Intersex, asexual, 2 spirit. It's the 2 spirited individuals. You forgot pansexual and asexual. Well, so pan is. I did say asexual. Pan is not in there. Nice. Nice to meet you. Hello. Hello, peers. What's your name? I'm Jenny. Jenny. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. So we wanted to talk about. I guess your initial claim is that pronouns are silly or purposeful. I think we've just established how silly they are. I mean, even the people defending them can't remember what they mean. Right. So I just wanted to touch on two things here. So I don't think anyone is denying biological sex assignment at birth. Right? Whatever your doctor determines your. It's not about doctors assigning anything, is it? You're either born with certain genitals or you're not. Right. But a doctor has to look at it when you're a male or female. Right. Understanding. Do you accept that? We've got this whole phrase assigned at birth. What does it mean? That means a doctor has looked at you as a baby. They look at you and they just see what I look at you and see. I don't have to be a doctor to know what you're assigned at. Right. But, okay, you're just born. Do you accept that the vast majority of people ever in the history of planet Earth are born male or female? Yeah, I do believe that. Can we stop the phrase assigned at birth by a doctor. Literally, what? A doctor. I've had four babies. They look at them and they go, oh, it's a boy, it's a girl. That's it. Right. So a doctor determines that and writes that on your birth certificate. But there's no one assigning any. Can I finish my point, please? Yeah, but they're not assigning anything. Can I. It's a ridiculous phrase. Please, Feel free. Thank you. So whatever your biological sex is determined by a doctor upon your birth, I don't think anyone's denying that. However, gender is a construct. That is how we express ourselves. How many genders are there? For me, I think that it's a scale. And however you want to express yourself is up to you can I express myself with anything I want? Well, if you let me finish my point. Okay. So for example, we talk about masculinity, we talk about femininity. And some days I feel like I want to feel more feminine, so I wear a dress or I do things that are socially constructed and designated as feminine. Or maybe other people have like this idea of masculinity so they present themselves in that way. So gender is different from biological sex in that it's how you express yourself. To me, somebody's gender expression and how they want to be addressed is no different than using somebody's name because I write. So when we use pronouns, it's with purpose. Right. What are your pronouns? She, Her. So you're a woman? Yes. So why don't you call yourself she her? Well, that's just how you address women. So why. Why use them as pronouns? But pronouns are just used in English language. We never used to. This is just only started 10 years ago. Nobody ever. Pronouns has always been used in the English language. I'm talking about the new cavalcade of extra pronouns. I think we're making it out to be so much more than it really is. If you're a man, you're a he, him. That's it. Right. The rest of it is just a complete construct of the woke left. None of it makes sense. To the point that none of you can even explain half of it. No, and I'm still explaining it. So how many genders are there? I'm still talking about gender expression. Can you tell me how many genders there are? I'm talking about how many other. I personally don't care. I don't know. Do you know a number? No. Because for biological sex, maybe the concept of limitless self identity. No. So if. Where's the limit? If you would let me continue. Where's the limit? If you would let me continue. Thank you. So what I'm saying though is that when you refer to somebody and their pronouns that they ask for, it's just general English language how we use it. There are plenty of languages out there that don't even have pronouns because that's just how the language works. So if you can speak a different language and not have to refer to somebody by their pronouns and know exactly who you're talking to, then I don't think pronouns are a big deal. I hear you and you. And you phrased it very nicely. But my point being, I think it's good. Got completely out of hand. When there are 74 cited genders. If You Google it as the official list of genders. And one of them is an affinity with space. I'm calling bullshit. When you have LGBTQ and it now has so many letters that even experts in the field of the LGBT community acronym cannot remember what they all mean. It is ridiculous. And when it comes to limitless self identity, I had this debate with someone on women International Women's Day on my show uncensored, and I had two guests. One was white, one was black. There's a relevance to that. And we were talking about this and I said, right, two women. I said, do you believe in limitless self identity? And the wokie of the two guests said, I do, and you have to respect what people want. She said, yes. I went, okay, in that case, I. On International Women's Day, Piers Morgan am now identifying as a black lesbian. And the black panelist burst out laughing because she knew what I was doing, which is taking this argument to its logical conclusion, which is once you make it limitless, society just collapses because anyone can say that they're anything they want. If I may interject, you would say to me, if I said to you I'm a black lesbian, what would you say? I would say that you're conflating this idea of limitless, like whatever, gender expression, self identity. I already said I don't agree with that. But you didn't say where the limit is. Right. So for me personally, and what I believe is that there are scientific things that we can agree to, like biological sex. Right, but gender expression is a cultural, societal. I know that, but where is the limit to what you're going to do? Right. So you can't identify as another race because that's just genetically not correct. Right, Right. So there are limits to this. Yeah, I do. So I'm really curious where the woke limit is on self identity. Gender is a social construct. Social construct means we made it up, right? Yes, exactly. So it's completely invented. Therefore, you can have whatever identity that you want because you've decided to create that. It's. But my point. The point of my. But why is that a problem? Here's the problem. It's got so out of control. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Gotcha, Ryan. Nice to meet you, Ryan. Ah, Piers. So actually I have my preferred pronouns. Okay, what are they? Hot. Hot. Hotter. Hottest. I can call you that. I can honor that. Yeah. Throughout the conversation, I expect to call me, all right, hottie. Is that okay? I prefer hottest. Hottest. Okay. I take that personal because I thought I was so Look, I think you do this really great job of taking the far edge use case and writing a book about it. I think what you're trying to do is take this thing that is explicitly a one dimensional, two dimensional range and adding things like this random, you know, star thing and then elephants and all that stuff. Nobody who is serious. Oh, fine. I tell you what, you're right. You're right. If you can Google it, it must be mainstream. If you read my book, you'll see these are specific examples. No, I got it, I got it. No, I understand. You are really good at taking anecdotes and making them data if that was how science worked. Not data, just facts. Well, for example, for example, there was a school in the north of England called the Altrincham School for Girls where everybody there is a girl. That's why they call it Altrincham School for Girls. And then because of the trans activist campaign, eventually they banned teachers and pupils from referring to each other as girls, even though everybody there was a girl. I think the vast majority of people who care about this at all would say that's an edge case. And most of us think that's weird. Great. That's the vast majority. And I agree with you. Yeah. So explain to me why you think personal pronouns actually matter. Well, you know, well, the question of gender has gone back for thousands of years. There were over 150 distinct civilizations in North America before colonialism that had more than two genders. So this is what we in the real world like to call an open question that evolves over time. I don't think that the fact that the question exists means there's some systemic sickness within society. And I don't understand why the fact that something that maybe you're not that familiar with or is an open question makes you uncomfortable. My argument is any, that it's pointless. Well, I assume you. I'm sure it is. What are your pronouns? He, him. Right. So everyone I've asked has basically said she, her, he, him. Yeah, well, in my day it was just male and female, man and woman. Got it. So here's the thing that you and I don't. But. But it's not for us to get. It's not ours to get. That's the point. No, but my point is I shouldn't be compelled to use absurd. You don't? Well, fine. Listen, I. Whatever you call absurd, fine. Whatever you choose not to, you should have to call me hottest thing you could go around. Even if I say my preferred pronoun is Hottest. You don't have a gay man. You could listen as a gay man. You could go around calling me a. And that would be okay. You'd be allowed to do that. You're not going to get arrested. You're not going to go to prison. You can do whatever you want. Exactly. It would be offensive and unkind. It would not be okay if you could do it. What I'm saying is you don't have to accept other people's pronouns. Yes, well, you've been saying a lot. I'm referring to things you've said. You're putting words into my mouth. Why correct me? You should let me say what I think you're pronouncing. Okay, go for it. I can't wait. I just found your terminology offensive. Okay. And object. Is that all you're going to say? Obviously. Look, we can agree that. That when there are derogatory terms like that, it's offensive. Yeah, of course. Right. And so if I find it offensive that you refuse to honor someone. They. Them pronouns. I'm allowed to be offended by that? You're allowed to be offensive, sure. That's a thing that can happen out in the world. That doesn't make you right. No, but we had a crazy phase, which I'll talk about in the book, where literally companies, you know, big companies, people were getting fired for not using people's pronouns. I don't think. Look, do you agree? That's insane. Hold on. Listen, listen. Anytime change happens, there are going to be blips, extremity. Do you agree nobody should get fired? I don't think anybody should get fired. No. Nobody should be fired. So we agree? Yeah. No, but the vast majority of people think that peers, I mean, for the same reason that most of us call ourselves woke, tongue in cheek. Where there's minutiae, there's little details, little off to the side cases, and then there's what's common. And what's common is people respect people's pronouns. But it is uncommon for an employer to fire someone for refusing to put them in their. Actually, it's more common than you think. And actually became a very insidious part of wokeism, which is what I call the cancel culture. We're going to come to that as a separate question. But this whole idea that if you don't conform to a particular worldview, you have to be. No, look, I understand that. Look, there are people on the far extreme of both the left and the right who want to get rid of people who believe think differently than they do. That's a both sided on both sides. I agree. But. But 95% of us are inside of those sides. This is not like a systemic problem with our whole human society. This is a far edge use case. So if you want to write a book and you want to go around talking about it like it applies to all of us. I just want to be clear. You're taking a molehill and making a mountain out of it. Sounds like you pretty well agree with me. Well, yeah, no, I agree with the principle of some of these things can be extreme. What I disagree with is how you take it and you make it this permanently awful bad thing. Black and white binary, it's bad and you want to dismiss out of hand. And you find that wisdom too. I think wokeism as a mindset is honestly, I think it's a joyless, hectoring, censoring, virtue signaling load of all that. I hear you and like I say, I don't say that because I'm on the right because I'm not sure the right will tell you I'm not one of them. Ask them what they think about things like gun control. No, I get it. Abortion and things like that. You can share thing works is a great brand and I believe it's authentic. I believe it's authentic. I genuinely sit in the middle on this. Well, I here fine, but here's the thing. I want to just be clear that what we're talking about are holding against the whole of society edge cases. I have been a grassroots activist for 15 years. I also do stand up comedy with all kinds of people. People say things that are offensive all the time and every once in a while in all these places you run into one or maybe two people who are these joyless, you know, joy sucking, you know, nothing is okay people. But all of us, the vast majority of us who give a shit about any of these things find those people to be unusual. They get cornered over there, over there and we don't do it. And that's why when you say wokeism is like that we all go bullshit. Because that's not how we are. Listen, listen. I agree that all encompassing verdicts on a group of people is often a bit misleading. You're clearly not an extreme progressive white somewhere probably a bit more normal. Which is like I said at the start, that's what my dad says. No, but you know, but I can see you probably are. You probably got quite a common sense valve in you, right? Yeah, I hope so. And that's all I want really is common sense. Good Luck. Hello. Hi, Sophie. Nice to meet you, Sophie. Nice to meet you. So what are your pronouns? She, her, great, another one. But. So actually, oddly, ironically, none of you have anything but the standard old pronouns which we never needed because everyone knew you were a woman or a man. Yes. However, my best friend goes by gender neutral pronouns and I am an 18 year old high school student. So what do you mean by that? They go by they, them, they, them. But there's only one of them. Yes, explain that. They. Them can refer to a singular person. Like, they can't though, can it? I feel like if somebody comes to my house and drops off a package at the door, I say, oh, they left the package there's. I'm not like, oh, he left the package there. She left the package there. I say, they left the package there. And that's only referring to one person. So I am an 18 year old high school student and many of my friends are trans or go by gender neutral pronouns. Are they though? Are they? Because what's happening is quite interesting. Apparently, the number of people. No, no, no, no, no. The number of people. Well, I'm talking about a group of people. All the reports are suggesting in the last year there's been a dramatic collapse in the number of young people at colleges and universities identifying as trans, which would confirm to me that the thing was a fad which got completely out of hand. And the people I actually felt sorry for were the people who are genuinely trans in some cases go through years of surgery because they feel they're born to the wrong body, the wrong sex and so on. I feel like they have been lost in all this conversation. They've been made to feel ridiculous, they've been mocked and so on. And I feel badly for those people because actually a lot of this trans stuff, particularly with young people at colleges, has been a fad. And, you know, there was a school near me, near where I grew up in East Sussex in England, where 900 kids in one school were apparently trans. Yes. Or dude off. Honestly, it's ridiculous. I understand. However, I think it's about respect and it's about garnering respect to the people who are like, you're talking to a person and if they want to be called they them by the pronoun. And if I want to be called a black lesbian, okay, but that, that gets into a race conversation. That's not okay. If I want to be called. Let me think of something. No, we're talking about they. We're talking about gender neutral pronouns. That was. If I want to be hot. Hotter, Hottest. Okay, well, that would be your choice. Would you respect that? Yes, I would. So you would call me that. Yeah, because that is your pronouns. And so I. I feel like you must call me me that. Okay, but I'm referring to you. Yes, at the moment, but address me in my. Prefer another thing. Sorry. You go. Okay. So hotter. Okay, thank you. This could really catch. Language evolves. Language evolves over time. You see how ridiculous that exchange was? No, it's preposterous. Sorry. Sorry. Lovely to meet you. Lovely to meet you. Thank you. Welcome back. Hey, good to see you again. Good to see you again. So I think that, like, the. The fixation on this really shows your emotional connection to the idea of pronouns more than, like, other people's want to self identify. Because for me, if, like, I've had people come up to me. I work in a lot of queer spaces in nonprofit work, and I've had people who say, they're they them. I misgender them on accident. I call them. You know, if they look very femme presenting, I'll call them she, her, and they'll be like, actually, it's they them. In my mind, I'm like, okay, I messed up. They're not chastising me. They're not pissed at me. They're not gonna, like, victimize me afterwards. And that's a majority of people. If there are people that do feel a sense of defensiveness, it's because there's been a propaganda campaign nationally that's been pushed on these people specifically to target and victimize them. So my big thing is, if we want people to be less defensive and less emotional, why are we fixating so much on it? Why are the people that say they hate pronouns so much talking about pronouns every chance they get? I just think women get to 74 different ways of identifying your gender. One of them is an affinity with the stars. You should all accept it's got ridiculous. And my point of saying things like I identify as a black lesbian or whatever is simply to show that if you allow things to be limitless, it goes to ridiculous places. We've had, I mean, that Rachel Dolezal story, do you remember? That was the white woman pretending to be black. Right. It was absolutely absurd. And she led this life, but as a fake person, person. It's all that kind of stuff. Yeah. To me, it's fuel. It's fueled by a mindset that says, anyone, can they use the phrase express themselves? But actually, if your gender identity and you want people to use this, if we get to 74, 80, 100. Right. It becomes, as I point out, completely pointless. Yeah. But if you're someone who feels this, like, sense that you need to identify as hot and hottest, I'm just going to call you Pierce. Like, that's really how it is. That's exactly my point. Yeah. So my thing is, you've answered my. That's it. No. And that's what you can do. No. No. You agree? No, but. But you're going on a show and you're writing a book specifically highlighting. That's the difference. If it's in this. I'm not making a big stink saying this is the degradation of society. I'm saying that this is somebody who's saying something that I don't totally understand. But just because I don't understand it, I can still respect them. I know I don't have to punch down and specifically target them out. Let me tell you the difference. There are a million things more important in life than being concerned about how people call you. Then don't focus on it. Pierce. Why are you writing a book about it? There's millions of things to concern yourself. Why aren't you talking about a genocide? I don't. Palestine. I do. Talking about. I literally. Victims that are going through hardship. You're writing a book about people who say astro gender, something I've never heard before. And I work in queer spaces. Wait, time out. I literally do a show every night where I talk about the wars in Ukraine and Gaza and other major. I'm just talking about this topic. I'm talking about this because I think it was very interesting to me that Donald Trump got reelected. I was like, how has this happened? And I think it was partly immigration, it was partly the economy, and it was partly what the Democrats call the culture. Well, and partly the culture wars. Right. A lot of people were fed up with this. I think it really was a big focus on the economy. And I think you're right there. And I think Trump's version of populism spoke to a lot of people who have been disenfranchised. Also, the culture war war stuff, it did cut through. It didn't, though. Yes, it did. That's not a big focus. Anybody on the woke left who will admit it? None of you admit it. Because if you talk about people's economic conditions, they're not going to give a shit of who their neighbors are and what their pronouns identify as. Right. They just want to be able to afford meals for their kids and actually get health care. Exactly. Hence why Gender pronouns are pointless. No. If. If it. If. If a certain group of people feel more comfortable, that shouldn't be something we discriminate. Ordinary checking a $300 head start on checking. Ordinary savings High yield savings that grow your money. Ordinary mortgage A mortgage with a rate that drops when the market does. Why settle for With Oregon State Credit Union you get all sorts of welcome to human to human banking. Oregon State Credit Union insured by NCUA equal housing lender $25 minimum balance required. 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I liked that you gave like, you know, the movie American fiction, the praise it deserves. But. So on page 81 you talk about how you're a liberal who respects free speech. And on that page you say the Republican party and I quote, is ferociously free speech. Yet Donald Trump two months ago signed an executive order banning the burning of the American flag. So how does that work? I don't agree with him. Yeah, but then how are they ferociously free speech? I don't agree with them. No, but. No, on your book on page 81 you said they're ferocious free. I would say in the last few years the Republicans have been more pro free speech than the woke left. That doesn't mean occasionally, as we saw with the Jimmy Kimmel thing, it doesn't mean that occasionally they don't do stuff which I think is hypocritical because actually it's not supporting free speech. So I agree with you. So what executive order did the Democrats where they are banning anything to the regard of burning the American flag? I don't think it happens. I'm talking about. Well, I don't agree with it, so. But Your books are frozen. Free speech. It's a contradiction. They are. They have. Should we just turn or tear page 81 out of your book then? No, no, no. You can be frozenly free speech and still occasionally do things which are hypocritical. Okay, like. Well, like yourself, but so. Whoa, where have I been? Hypocritical. So, okay, so on page 245. Wow. I like the book. What can I say? Are you like one of those weird little mentalists who just remembers every single word of a page? I'm just a massive Celebrity Apprentice fan, so I need no idea. Really. Oh, you killed Trace Adkins in the end. I really appreciate that. I actually bumped into him in Beverly Hills recently. But. So you're on page 245. You talk about how you are against. If you were king for a day, you would ban anybody who participates in Cancel Culture online. Yes. And you would call them out. However. However. Michael Knowles, a guest you have on all the time, has recently said that he wants to ostracize certain people from society. That when they say negative things. He was on this show and said if you wave the pride flag, you should be in jail for that. That is against the First Amendment and that is absolutely cancel culture. I don't agree with that. You never call him out on that. You've never done it. You have him on the show all the time. Next time he's on, I will. You promise? You have a bet. So like right now, though, it just seems anyone who watches my show will know I call out everybody. No, you don't. You never call out Michael Knowles. He's done it multiple times. You've just pointed that out to me. So we'll call him out. It just sounds like you're not sure. Michael, if you're watching, I'm going to ask you about that. You better. You better have your. Okay, so then other than. So what has the left has. I'm not arguing from left to right. What has the left. What has the left done in the past 10 years that it's been worse than trying to ban the burning of the American flag? Well, what's the woke left on? They tried to ban everybody and everything. Really? They tried to make it illegal. Name one example. That's just a flag. So. Yeah, but what legislation they put forward? Nothing. Here's. Let me question back to you. What's more being canceled than being put in prison? Okay, let me give an example. I'll give you an example. Yeah. Graham Linehan. Yeah. Okay. I'm not bringing it back because I want to talk about his issue. He's a comedian who did Father Ted. Obviously. His issue is singular. It's the trans issue. We've debated that. Yes. However. However, the principle of a comedian posting jokes, which people may find offensive on social media, as he did back in April, about the trans issue then being met by five armed police officers at Heathrow Airport in London and arrested and taken off. And a very interesting thing happened, which is why I say woke is dead as an ideology, because two, three years ago that would have been supported by everybody in the woke left. Yeah, bang him up. Absolutely disgusting. How dare he? He's transphobic. He's horrible. We know this because of the way that. Hang on. We know this from the way that J.K. rowling was treated, right. For doing the same stuff about the trans issue. She was given death threats. She was threatened with this, that and the other. But a different thing happened this time. This time there was such a public outcry, including from many on the left, actually, to be fair to them, that this had crossed the line. We've got to stop doing this for stupid posts on social media. Hundreds of people on social media in the last two years in Brazil, Britain, have been arrested. It's completely ridiculous. Are terrorist land. Let me finish. So actually the police not only said, we're not going to prosecute him, but we're not going to prosecute anybody for this kind of offense going forward. That's a big win and a repudiation of. Cancel. All you've told me is the left has progressed in their position on free speech, but the right has regressed. That's all you said. I'm not here to defend the right's position, I think. But I'm saying if you're going to write a book trying to defend free speech, you should focus on where it's actually being attacked. But you wasted your time talking about this left boogeyman that does not exist. I agree with you. I love free speech. I am against all that stuff. I'm wearing the poppy today because of Remembrance Day. And we fought for free speech. And the right right now is attacking it. And you have a huge platform and you can take this time to actually defend free speech, but you're not. I always defend free speech. Okay, so then why don't you put more folks on the right then? So let me give an example. You actually agree with Jimmy Kim. You actually agree with my argument on page 241 of your. Your book, as I'll quote it again, you attacked Bob Chapek because he denounced Ron Desantis for putting in anti gay laws, to put it quotely. But you said he should be attacking people like Xi Jinping because he does way more human rights violations. But that applies here. Trump and the right do way more than the left. You said that in your own book. But right now you're contradicting yourself again. I think both sides are capable of ranking contradiction. Who's worse? I actually think, on balance, over the last five years, the woke left have been more suppressive of free speech. Really? Yes. Let me give you an example. Oh, yeah. Okay. But you take like 15 minutes to give an example, and we have 14 minutes. We haven't stopped talking. That's true. All right, Piers. I had a great time. That was good. Yeah, I like the book. Thank you. How's it going, Piers? Hello. Good to meet you. Good to see you. My name's Dash. Good to see you, Piers. Standing off against the liberals. This is really something. Well, I am a liberal. Your thoughts and beliefs in private, I would assume more align with ours. But I understand getting. No, no, I understand getting that bag. I don't know your thoughts. I'll save you the trouble. I'll do it for you. Okay. Piers Morgan's new book, Woke is dead is out now. It's great. Thank you. I also read it covered. That's great. Thank you very much. I wanted to take that off your shoulders. Thank you. But let's get into it. So I'm just curious, someone who doesn't have any kind of a relationship with accountability, would you agree that everything comes across to them as cancel culture? No, I don't believe that speech comes without accountability. Okay. But I do believe we had a frenzied atmosphere in the last few years, driven predominantly by the woke left of canceling anybody that didn't sign up to their worldview, which I thought was very insidious. I called it out while it was happening. I've called it out since. I've now written a book about it all saying we cannot go back to that. It doesn't mean the right aren't capable of doing similar stuff and being hypocrites. They are. But it also means that if you look at it in totality, I think this cancel culture mentality has been really damaging. And I think the war on free speech has been really damaging. Okay, well, let's put this on a spectrum, because I think we use this term cancel culture, and everybody's been canceled by the left. I don't have any actual evidence of what you're talking about. So let's say accountability is on this side, which is you facing consequences for your actions. Let me give you an example. And on this side of the spectrum is facing consequences for something that is not justified. Let me give an example. So now let's start to place it in that spectrum. Let me give you a specific example. Because the people you carry water for on the right tend to be over here where they don't take accountability for anything and instead feel like they're being canceled. Wait a minute. Although it's just controversial. Do you ever watch my show? Your basic action. You ever watch my show? I do. And you really think I carry water for the right? Absolutely. Really? Yes. There's a statistic that you, you, you defend Republicans more than anybody else. No, no, I don't. I just attack the woke left more than anybody else. Okay, but I. Correct. But it's friendly fire. I come at you as one of your own. Only I didn't go mad. I appreciate you admitting only I didn't go mad. Right. I didn't go mad. Woke bonkers. I stayed old fashioned liberal with liberal values wanting free speech at the cornerstone of it. Let me give an example of the peers. I read your book. That's not the case. You spent most of the book. There's cock in your mouth if you read. Sorry. You spent most of the book with Trump sucking him off. No, I didn't. Yes, you. The prologue was the Dawn Rises. D O n the prologue. Actually, if you read it, and I don't think you did because you just revealed you probably haven't. The prologue actually starts with two conversations I have with him, One positive and one extremely negative. Yes. Which ends up with him saying Piers Morgan's so dead he's catching flies. Right. I'm not sure. You've read the book, have you? I have read the book. And you wouldn't say that I bleep bleep because that was Mar a Lago trying to win favor back. Trying to win favor the presumptive nominee back onto his side. Yes, but look, after spending spending years being a critique of or critic of his, then you needed to win favor back. I've never spent years as a critic of Trump. I've spent years. I've known Donald Trump nearly 20 years. He's been a politician for the last 10 years of that period. In that time, for example, I used to write columns for the Daily Mail in America. I calculated after his first term in office, I wrote about 120 columns about Trump. You can go and check it. And about half were negative and half a positive. I do think in Trump's first term, if people have been fairer to give him credit where he deserved it and criticized him when he deserved it, everyone would have been a lot better off. I feel it now. The Trump derangement syndrome is a real thing. And he's wear that badge proudly. I know, but it's kind of pathetic. It's like when I hear people say he's the new Hitler. Really? Hitler murdered 12 million people, including 6 million Jews, in the Holocaust. Donald Trump is the new Hitler. You're idiot. Okay, if we're talking about hyperbole here, we have focused half of the discussion today on trans issues, but we're not going to talk about things like, I don't know, Trump is in the Epstein files and he's using the government to cover it up. Should we talk about that? Sure. That affects a lot of people. How about him denying the 2020 election and eroding the public's trust, institutions and processes? That affects everybody. Okay, so let's try not deflecting to the trans athletes conversation. You've just brought up two more issues. I'm happy to talk about it. We'll see if you deflect. Go on. You want to ask me about. Go. Okay, well, I'm saying let's focus on the issues that affect lots of people, not deflect into trans athletes. Issues that affect very few people in the grand scheme of. Well, let's be clear. The number of people directly affected by the Epstein scandal is probably 2,000. What? The president of the United States covering up a pedophilia scandal affects everybody. If that's what he's doing. Well, common sense. You're a champion of common sense. Well, I can tell you that I've spoken to, to Virginia Giuffre's lawyer multiple times, David Boies. He's seen the files. He does not believe there's anything against Trump in those files. Well, okay. What happened to common sense, Pierce? Well, actually, I prefer to stick to facts. Oh, come on. Hello. Good to meet you. Nice to meet you. What's your name? My name's Z. Z? Yeah. Z, yes. He doesn't know what that means. Yeah, that's all good. I corrected him. And you're sitting with each other. Okay, so that's not your pronoun. That's your name. It's my name. My pronouns are she, her. Oh, great, great. So I think I tend to agree with you mostly on the cancel culture stuff in Fact. Like, I was canceled back in April from this guy behind me. Really? Yeah. And so. Over some woke stuff. Okay. Are you serious? I'm serious. What did he do to you? Well, it was about micro. Well, it was about him. It was about microaggression, so. But my point is, is that I think that the far left tend to do this to shrink the Democratic tent so that they don't have to take responsibility in winning elections. Yeah, I agree. And I do think that that's a very small portion of the far left, except they're now winning power. This is where Mamdani did. They are. Right. Which is a good thing, actually. It's a terrible thing. Well, first of all, I don't think Mamdani is considered the far left. Parker and Mamdani are not in the same category to me. Because he believes in electoral power. Right, but my point is, is that you still, as you still are stumping for Republicans as if Republicans. I don't stump for anybody. Well, Pierce, I watch your show a lot. Then, you know, I don't stump for anybody. Okay, but you just made the defense in this argument with, I think, the guy before this last guy, where you said that you think Republicans are better on free speech than the ones have been in the last few years. Yes. Right. Well. And I totally disagree with you. Can we use Charlie Kirk as an example? Do you think that Charlie Kirk stuff for free speech? Absolutely. You do? Oh, my God. Really? How? Tell me about that. Charlie Kirk was the absolute personification of defending free speech. Oh, really? Let me explain why. Okay. Charlie Kirk had strong views about a lot of things, many of which you probably don't agree with, I'm guessing. Yeah, but Charlie Kirk, week after week around America, would go onto university campuses knowing that most people there didn't agree with him, may have a preconceived view about him, maybe thought he was a fascist and all the other things they could. And he would sit there in his tent, sometimes outside, as he was when he was appallingly assassinated, and he would say, prove me wrong. And people would line up and they come and have a debate like this. And he would listen to them respectfully. He'd challenge them. He'd argue with them. That's not what happened. Sorry. That's exactly what Charlie Kirk did. Okay? As somebody that. And for that, he got a bullet in the neck. Okay, as somebody that runs the counter organization to Charlie Kirk's turning point. That is not the point of what Charlie Kirk was doing. Charlie Kirk did not decide to debate high Profile debaters, people like Destiny or people on the left that would actually give him a real debate. In fact, he even denied debating Dean Withers. I was literally with him when he did that. Okay, so it's not like he was going in to have a real debate. He would go to these college. But he did have real debate. No, he would go to these college campuses to debate kids that were very much underprepared so that he could clip them and then raise money for Turning Point to go out there and then register voters. Okay, then don't debate him. And I think that, that, that's brilliant. Okay. That's why I'm trying to replicate it. But you cannot say that he was there for free speech. Cuz that's not really free speech. Especially when Charlie Kirk went and tried to deny. He denied us from going into his events just because we were Democrats. He canceled our permits even though we had permits that we paid for. But you wouldn't argue that's not free speech. But you wouldn't argue that he would regularly and I mean almost on a daily basis debate with people who he didn't agree with. College students, unprepared college students. That's real dangerous. Let me throw back at you something which I'm interested about, your response to this. Yeah, he went to the Oxford Union in April, May this year. Yeah, he did. And he debated a guy during the appearance there who then became the president elect of the Oxford Union, who when Charlie Kirk was murdered, reacted by posting lol, laughing out loud. And then he said, charlie, Kurt just got shot. Let effing go. He celebrated the murder of Charlie Kirk who was killed, let's be clear. Because he had views that the person who killed him didn't agree with. Yeah, that person continued to want to be president of elect of a debating society. Do you agree that it's not a question of free speech or cancel culture, that he was incompatible with the position of being president of a debating society? If you celebrate someone's murder. Yeah, I agree with you 100%. We can agree on that. I watched the way a lot of them woke, left, celebrated, posting. And these were teachers, nurses, doctors, professors posting videos of themselves glorifying celebrating the murder of Charlie Kirk. It was one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen. Do you think that they should be fired for that? Yeah, absolutely. They should be fired for that. How are you? I'm Rob. Nice to meet you, Rob. So I think we are conflating accountability with cancel culture. I am the mayor of my hometown and if I came on here, Los Gatos, California. If I came on here and said a bunch of bigoted things, my voters would righteously vote me out. I would be out of a job. That's not cancel culture. That's. That's just common sense and accountability. Can you tell me someone who has been permanently canceled? No, no, no, no. You're here today. People like Bill Cosby don't get gigs because he's a pervert, right? I can tell you somebody. I can tell you two people where there was a global effort to cancel us, right? And one was me. And it came after the Oprah Winfrey Wine a thon, where Meghan and Harry trashed my royal family and trashed the monarchy in the most despicable, disingenuous manner imaginable. 57,000 wokies bombarded the Ofcom television regulator. They weren't Good Morning Britain, the show I was doing. Viewers, these were just woke left progressives who wanted me fired for disbelieving the claims about racism and mental health that were cited in that interview, which have never been substantiated and which I do this day do not believe. And I was told, you've got to apologize for this because the mob have come. You've got to apologize or lose your job. A job I was doing very successfully, done it for five years, trebled the ratings. We just eclipsed the BBC as the number one morning show. I was at the peak of my powers. But because I was exercising my right not to believe somebody who actually, it turned out, was spewing a lot of bullshit, I had to leave my job because I wasn't going to apologize. Now, let me give you the subjunct of that, which is far worse. Sharon Osborne, my longtime friend, was hosting a show here called the talk on CBS. She'd done it for 10 years. She loved that job. She was brilliant at that job. She defended me when asked about it. She didn't defend what I'd said. She just said, I'm here for my friend. Peers, right? The black co. Panelist, Cheryl Underwood played the race card on the next episode of the Talk. She turned to Sharon on air and said, out of nowhere, this wasn't planned. Why did you support someone who said racist things? I had never said anything racist about Meghan Markle. Sharon, obviously under attack, saying she'd been supporting a racist and by definition must therefore be a racist, said, well, what's he said that's racist. At which point Sheryl Underwood went on this ridiculous little. Hang on, it's a point to it. Sherri Underwood just said, I don't think. Well, it's not so much that he said racist things. It's kind of the way he said stuff. So Sharon said, is this what you think people are talking about? Yes, I'm going to come to it. So Sharon Underwood says this, and then she says, I'm not accusing you of being racist, Sharon. Sharon says, I think that ship has sailed. Here's what happened to Sharon. For a job she loved, she was bombarded with death threats, online, mayhem, vilified, shamed. People saying, fire her. Wait a minute. Let me, I think that's bad. Let me finish. Fire, fire, fire, fire, fire. Her death threats as well. I think that's bad. She eventually showed a groveling, sobbing apology. It still wasn't enough. She got fired from that job for what? For absolutely nothing. For the next year, she had the worst year of her life. I don't think that's what, I don't think that's what people talk about. She was left. When you're talking about cancer culture. Wait, you're talking about cancer culture saying like no one has ever. You're talking about who make a racist joke and somebody who doesn't want to listen to them anymore. Osborne. I, I, I don't know much about that. That sounds bad. I know that sounds bad. That sounds bad. I wouldn't cancel Sharon Osborne. Why did I, why did I have to leave my job for disbelieving Megan Marco? I don't know. Cancel culture. Yeah. Nice. Me. Okay. Hello. Hi. Amanda. Amanda, nice to meet you. So, cancel culture. I'm trying to understand, is it that you believe it's something that's not necessary within society to hold people accountable? Is it so? I do think accountability is very important and individual companies are perfectly entitled to operate their own policies. What I'm talking about is where the woke mob, normally through social media, would pile pressure, and it's not exclusive to them. I've seen it happen with the right as well. Would pile pressure on companies, on institutions, to fire people, often for what, in my opinion were things that might be offensive to people or whatever, but they're not at the bar where they should lose their livelihoods. Well, I do understand. I mean, there's a line when it comes to cancel culture where there are things that are taken too far, where people do lose their jobs for certain things that some people may find offensive or some people might not find offensive. Free speech, you know, the whole point of free speech is it's not about you and I agreeing exactly. It's about our ability to listen to each other and maybe you even saying hateful things to me. If they don't cross the bar of criminality, you're allowed to do that, and I should just suck it up. I don't have to like it, but I have to tolerate the fact in a free, democratic society like United States with the First Amendment, you're entitled to do that. And see, that's where I disagree. I don't feel that it has to reach a bar of criminality in order to. For it to be something that someone has to be held accountable for. Though we have free speech, there does have to be lines drawn because there are things that are inappropriate, regardless. You know, as you said when you were discussing books that are banned or certain things, the remarks you made about Meghan Markle, I don't agree that's something that you should be fired for. But I do see why. There are people. And you need to look outside of your. There are people who felt that you needed to be canceled for such an instance. Why? Black women, especially around the world, in the global west, they're oftentimes not listened to. And their problems, their pain, their mental health are oftentimes disregarded or undermined. And so that's also been a problem in gynecology, which is why we see maternal race for black women. So you believe Meghan Markle? I believe Meghan Markle. Really? Why wouldn't I believe Meghan Markle? Let me give an example of why. You probably should. So she said in that interview that she and Harry were married secretly by the Archbishop of Canterbury three days before the public wedding. I recall, had that been true, the Archbishop of Canterbury would have committed a crime and would have gone to prison. Yes. Did you ever see him go to prison? No, I did not. Did that make you think that maybe that never happened? Um. Honestly, no, it did not make me think that something that did not occur. I want to answer your question. They said in that interview that senior members of the royal family, who we now know, through a leaked copy of the book where the names appear, were supposedly then Prince Charles, now King Charles, and Catherine, William's wife, made comments that they were concerned about the potential skin color of the unborn baby. Do you believe, on balance, that that's likely to have happened? Absolutely. Really? Absolutely. Do you think that from the British institution that's something that has been, you know, for centuries, trying to maintain the purity of the blood? You know, something that has been within British narrative, they couldn't stop being white? No. I'm not saying what are you suggesting something being white. If you're purposely trying to preserve it, it is something that you are doing. You're not purposefully trying to preserve it the way they interbred for years. I have studied English aristocracy for a lot. To be clear, you think the royal family have been deliberately trying to stay white. What I will say is that conservatism oftentimes does have to tie with the purity of white whiteness and white culture. And so there are a large majority of conservatives who do see whiteness as the main basis of being a conservative of something that's very important that they need to preserve. And it's why a lot of times they exclude minorities and why they feel as though things such as wokeness are poor. They shouldn't be included because it's giving that pathway. What should worry you more is that having said all this absolutely inferno about the royal family being a bunch of callous racists, where's he? I don't. Harry then wrote a book. Do you remember the book? Spare? Yes, I have 420 odd pages of his life story. Do you know the two things that didn't appear in that book? The racism allegations against his family about the skin color of their unborn child and the fact that the Buckingham palace officials apparently told Meghan Markle she couldn't get help for her suicidal thoughts. Those two things things never got repeated, never appeared in their documentary, never appeared in the book. They just vanished. It did appear in the documentary. I did watch documentary. Well, when Harry was asked about it recently, he said, oh, no, no, it was the media that put a racist tone on this. I never meant to say my family were racist. Oh, yes, you did. We all watched what you guys said. It's okay. That was great. Thank you. I enjoyed it. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. Hello, Shane. Good to see you. Nice to meet you. I want to take it back all the way to your original claim and you've set a lot of examples. I don't think you've provided a single example of how cancel culture is a violation of free speech. Okay, I'll give you 1. The two weeks before the election where Biden won, the New York Post got an exclusive story about Hunter Biden's laptop. Sure. It was a. Okay. And people can laugh. Actually contained incredibly damaged, damaging information which may have led to serious charges against a lot of the Biden family. We now will never know because they've all been pardoned. But this story, this story was suppressed by the Left in the most disgraceful manner imaginable. The left at the time being all the tech giants defined suppressed. They literally banned the New York Post account from their platform. Okay. Until they took down the front page exclusive. Free speech isn't protected on what platform you can speak on. No, no, these are private. You ask me for an example of Cancel Culture. They literally asked you for an example of violation of free speech, which is there is a violation of free speech, which is a promise that the government will not come in and arrest you for anything you say. Hang on. You are not entitled to viewers on your show just because people agree with you. I agree, Shane. Let me make my point. You asked me for an example of where free speech had been suppressed, violated a major. Yeah, violated. Not suppressed, violated. Violated. A major national American newspaper of 100 plus years standing. The New York Post had its account taken down on social media. Did anyone get arrested because they were exposing a true story about the son of the man who would be president and became president in a way that was directly intended to benefit Joe Biden and hinder Donald Trump's chances of winning that election? And I don't agree with that. So that's what I mean. For example, was anyone arrested? What do you mean arrested? Was any free speech violated that the government stepped in and arrested someone? Well, I just told you the story of Graham Linehan who was arrested at the Heathrow airport. Yeah. In the uk. Yeah. You don't have free speech in the uk. Well, that's part of the problem. I agree. That sounds like a UK problem, not a US problem. The US has a big problem. So what? It has a problem. But where has free speech been violated? Because. No, you gave me one at Heathrow Airport. I'll give you the New York Post example. Who has been arrested as a result of Cancel Culture because someone has said something that was either bigotry, racist, sexist, whatever it is, and people are not entitled to have viewers to be based on their opinions. I'm not saying they are. If people disagree with you, they can say, oh, we're not going to watch you anymore. They're going to go out in social media and say, hey everybody, let's stop watching this person because he came out as racist 100%. Okay. And that's not a violation of free speech? No. Sharon Osborne was fired, as I just told you. Also not a violation of free speech because it was. 49 states are at will, employee states. Companies can fire you for any reason that is not related to discrimination. I agree. I think you're misunderstanding me. You're misunderstanding me. I've already said that companies are perfectly entitled to do what they like. They're private businesses, Right? Yes. So CBS was perfectly entitled to do. But was it a violation of Sharon's free speech rights, what they did? Yes. No, not a violation. It was suppression. It was. I don't agree with it. What's the difference? I think that people. She didn't get arrested for what she said. Well, violation doesn't just mean you get arrested. Yes. Being violated of your free speech. Being able to not. I can violate you without involving arresting you. Is that what you see when you look at me? You want to blame me? No. That is what we have in our constitution. That is protected. You can say and do whatever. You have better protections here than we do in the uk. I agree. But your speech is protected. You can be as hateful, as angry, as misogynistic as you want to be. And people can hate you for that. Consequences. You do not have a right to be on a platform and get to say whatever you want. Sure you can. But if I say. If I say right now on camera, I think you should be shot dead. That is actually a criminal offense. No. And I would be arrested if you said you wanted to shoot me dead or you're encouraging people to shoot me dead. That is not protected. Free speech. That is correct. It's a crime. You saying I should be shot dead is my point being. And that makes you look like a terrible person. Right? Not all. Yeah, I agree. And you're not gonna be arrested for that. I've already made the point that hateful speech has to be tolerated in a free democratic society. Right. Where it passes the bar of criminality, then obviously the law enforcement take over. And that's how it should be. The problem comes, and it's been more of a problem in my country than here. I agree. But I do think in terms of suppressing free speech, what was going on with things like the New York Post story being suppressed was absolutely disgraceful. I agree. We're not disagreeing on that. Your claim was essentially the point of agreement. We end up agreeing. I love that Pierce will now choose someone from the outer circle to come back to the center to debate him on their claim. Barker, you're too annoying. Nick. I've chosen Nick to come back for the final debate, which will be his debate, because he impressed me during our conversation earlier. And that cannot be said about everybody that sat opposite me today. So, Nick, come to the chair. Good to talk to you again, Piers. Welcome back. My surrounded claim is that discussions of woke politics are merely a distraction from our common enemy, the billionaire class. So as I just said, I think that these discussions of woke, whether we think we're saying that the problems in society are because of broke graduate students or people that are being mean to us on Twitter, ultimately it's all secondary to what really unites us. I think that it's woke to talk about the fact that the middle America, the industrial heartland of Britain, have been hollowed out by forces of globalization, outsourcing jobs to places like China or India or Malaysia or Vietnam, and that these talking about trans athletes, talking about what people choose to identify themselves as, it's all so unimportant. And 80, 90, 95% of what actually matters is what's going to put more money in people's pockets, what's going to let them have a dignified life for them and their family. And talking about wokeness, whether it's dead or alive, it's just a distraction and it's really not important or relevant to most of our lives 95% of the time. Okay, I think you can. The first part I agreed with about the globalization, I think it's spot on. And also I'm not trying to claim that the wokeism cultural war issues are more important than globalization or the impact, as you say, of nefarious billionaires around the world having too much power and money with the disparity between them and the poorest parts of society getting bigger and bigger. I have very strong views about that. Nor am I trying to say that the debate about pronouns is in any way as significant as a debate I have all the time about the war in Gaza or the war in Ukraine. I just think you can have all these debates at the same time. And to pretend as the woke left do that none of these culture wars cut through or matter is to be completely deluded. And I would simply say to you, there was a UN report came out and it said, I think it was 20, 24, nearly 900 medals in competitive women's sport. To come back to that issue we discussed, had been deprived from actual women because trans athletes had won them. That's a staggeringly large number of girls and women who've been deprived of their rightful medal competing in women's sport because of the altar of trans activism driven by the world. See, this is my trouble, Pierce, with talking about trans athletes, because functionally you're talking about 900 medals given out to people I don't, I don't know, not Enough here. My thing is that an 8 year old winning a track and field meet doesn't really affect me. What about Riley Gaines? California what about Riley Gaines who's done a campaign but what about Riley Gaines gains? I mean why should. Leah, this is exactly my point. This whole discussion of trans athletes has nothing to do with what actually matters to people. I don't agree with you. They're talking about it with all due respect. A lot of clicks gets a lot of views books. I don't agree with it and these other issues are much more. But you know, you know who leads that campaign saying no one cares? The woke left. Most of whom think it's absolutely fine. Most of whom think someone like Riley Gates. But again enemy. See this is the problem standing up for women's rights is you're saying that we have time to debate all of these issues but practically we know that society prioritizes different issues. How much time do you think you're spent on the Israel Hamas war compared to wokeism in the last calendar year a lot of time has been spent on the Israel God's war. A lot of people have died. Give me a percentage of how much time I personally devoted to. I'm not sitting here with a stopwatch going how much time is spent on what I know is not nearly enough time is being spent. Let me help you. I'm spending poverty. These are the issues. There are a million issues you may not care about. The trans athlete issue, I can tell you millions of people do. Who are you all due respect to have the arrogance to tell people what they should be caring about. You can compare, you can. I'm not trying to tell them not to care about it. I don't think it should be at the top or even in the top 10 of the issues they actually are talking about. That's entirely your prerogative. But you should not be arrogant enough to assume you know what people care about. I know from the worker that I must and this tour I've been doing and the conversations I've been having. A huge number of people do care about this. They genuinely have felt that the woke left have turned the world into a joyless, horrible place where everyone gets scolded, vilified, canceled, shamed and sometimes shot because of what they're saying. But this is the way, and I think that does matter of social media and the way that public discourse works is instead of talking about the issues that are the most relevant to people's lives lives. I'm not talking about whether they care or not, but I'm talking about relevance, how much it actually matters to your life. Do you have any kids? I do not have any. Okay, if you had a daughter. I've got a 13 year old daughter. She's showing no sign of doing this. But if she had aspirations to be an Olympian, for example, would you feel differently if her Olympic place was taken by a trans athlete? I do not want anyone's Olympic dreams to be crushed, but I think that their ability to get a well paying job is much more important and something we should be focused on. Then you made it clear you think that the Olympic dream is irrelevant. I, I, I much prefer to focus on the American dream than an Olympic dream personally. So you have your fixed set of things that you care about. I respect that. Right. A lot of people will. But again, Pierce, everybody cares about the idea, but they don't work people up as much. And so it doesn't get as much airplane. Of course they do. No, we, we all know that if this was a discussion about the minutiae of health care policy, it would not get as many viewers as has an hour long conversation about trans athletes. Come on, we know this. You don't think the issues, for example, like the wars in Ukraine and Gaza, get people angry and passionate? If it bleeds. If it bleeds, of course that matters. Of course. War and peace is incredibly important. You don't think the issue of globalization and the impact on people's jobs and lives has not been the subject of a lot of passionate, angry, animated. I think it gets far less airtime than it deserves. Because what we see is that whether you're on the right populist side or the left populist side, they've all got their fingers squarely aimed at the puppet masters pulling the strings behind our whole system. But it's the people in the middle. And this is what I wish people would really understand at home. It is not the left that pushed woke politics or identity politics. It was neoliberals who wanted to have the current system maintain the status quo, but give people who hadn't had a stake in that system more representation within it. But the fact is that for most people, whether the CEO of Lockheed Martin is a trans black woman does not matter. What matters for most people is whether they have a job that actually is able to pay the rent, that they can have a hope of owning a home, that they can marry who they like to. That stuff matters. It only matters if the black trans leader of a company has only got that job because they're Black and trans and not on ability. Because then you move into a country and society which prides itself on mediocrity over meritocracy. I believe in opportunity for all at the bottom rung. But once that ladder starts, I believe only the most relevant people should get to the top. The people getting tens of millions of stock options are not my priority. It's the person making minimum wage that's my priority. The best quote about DEI I have heard was Stephen Pinker, who said that rather like the Holy Roman Empire, which ended up being neither Holy Roman or really an empire, that's what DEI became. It's supposed to be diverse, equal and inclusive. Ended up being none of those things. And that's the problem. So we should be. Look, one of the good things about this conversation, it's been a conversation I don't think enough of this happens, where people don't just scream at each other. I've actually found this an engaging environment to talk in. I like being challenged. You've all given me a little something to think about, you in particular. That's why I brought you back. These are good conversations to have. I'm not saying you're intrinsically wrong that your priority list is not more important. I think it probably is, right. But I also think the idea that millions and millions of people around the world, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, probably do not care about those other issues is deluding. But this is why I chose the prompt that I did, because I know that when I get upset about something, it clouds out a lot of other things that I should be thinking about. But I get so focused on the thing I'm angry about. This is why WOKE politics has become such a useful canard for people of all political persuasions, because it does get people worked up, because it does speak to basic issues of identity and belonging and meaning. And when you undermine that, people do get really upset. And what that does is it takes away their emotional and intellectual bandwidth from the things that would materially improve their lives. And that is why I think that this whole conversation, not that it's not important, but it should not be crowding out, as it is in our public discourse, all the other issues that are so, so much more important. That's why you saw. I know you don't agree with Mamdani in New York. Mamdani did not run a campaign on WOKE politics. He aimed it squarely at cost of living, affordability issues, and he won more votes than anybody in New York City in the last 60 years. Hang on. He Also promised, like all good socialists, he's gonna give everyone everything for free. And let me tell you what's. Well, I'll tell you what. Buses are free for most people in New York already. So, you know, let me tell you what's gonna happen with Mamdani. You can take this to the bank. Because socialism has never worked anywhere in the world for any sustained period of time. Mamdani is gonna let down all the people that voted for him. Cause he will not be able to afford to do anything like the stuff he says he's going to do. You can take it. Well, this is where I agree with you. Definitions matter. Socialism is about public ownership of the means of production. Zaramdani is not proposing seizing, you know, J.P. morgan's building. He literally said he wants to take control of productivity. I have not seen him say that. He's a communist. He is not a communist. Literally. That is the rhetoric of a communist. He is not a communist. And again, if you want to drink the man cooler, fine with you. He is a communist. Masquerade. I think it's good to have more candidates like, New York has never had a guy like Sherrod, like Mamdani, who are focused on cost of living and affordability. Speaking to the issues that actually matter in people's lives. Childcare being $22,000 a year. We may disagree on how to provide that child care, but you're speaking to an issue that affects 80% of families, 80% of parents. So let's talk about that more. I agree. Trans athletes, with all due respect, you brought up Riley Gain. There might be a couple of others, but we're talking about a vanishingly small. No, no, we're not. And what I'm concerned about is the little girl who just wants to be on a team, who just wants to participate in her community. And I look at all the young California children who saw trans athletes participating and they didn't care at all, man. So why does everybody else. When the kids get that this is bogus, here's what happens, Nick. I know you're gonna get your little round of applause. I know it's easy. But here's what happens when the little girls grow up and they get to be Riley Gaines and they're actually competing for a living. And this is their livelihood and their dream. And they dream of getting to win competitions and get to the Olympics. Well, luckily, Riley didn't become any, did she? Well, she's just a commentator. Actually, she did become. Her Olympic dream was shadowy, sadly, never going to be well, you may be glib about it, but actually what Happened is a 6 foot 3 inch biological male came in and began to destroy the integrity of women's swimming in America. You may not think that matters. I do. That's why I talk a lot about them. That's why Riley's been brave to talk about it. That's why J.K. rowling was brave to talk about it. And the idea that she. I know you can all vilify J.K. rowling. I don't even like her. She hates me. She called me a disgusting, toading Trump apologist when I was on Bill Maher once when I got told to fuck off. So I've got no truck for her whatsoever. Right. But on that issue, I've loudly supported her, which is kind of what I feel about the Trump thing, by the way, is that the hysteria that goes around it, it doesn't help anybody. You're better off saying where Trump does something good. For example, if I was to ask you as a group, is it good that Trump has basically shut the southern border down after the Biden administration let in 10 million people illegally over that border in four years, and that may be a conservative estimate. Is that a good thing? The honest, intellectually honest answer should be yes. Are there issues now about the way ICE has been going around picking up undocumented people who may have built their lives here, control, contribute to society, and so on? Absolutely. I'm glad you made the point for me so I didn't have to. Absolutely. So there are caveats to my support for the overall policy. But on the southern border, everybody should better say that's a good thing. And they should also applaud Trump for trying to forge peace in places around the world where there is war, be it Gaza, where he got the hostages out. You'll never hear me, Christian peacemaker. So my point is, if the hysteria just dials down a touch, and actually we try and do what we've done here, right, bring people a bit more together, have a bit more consensus, give credit where it's due, criticize where it's due, but sometimes agree to disagree, you know, I'm not saying you're wrong with your priority list. I'm just saying that I think to exclude these other things is disingenuous from my perspective, because I think it is important, but we can agree to disagree about that. And I'm not saying that your priority list is in any way invalid, because it's not. Well, I think we found some middle ground here. Yes, that's the wrong show. Yeah, you know what? Just in case they want to end. You know what, Nick? I've always hated you. Thanks, coach. I think he's intentionally not really aligned with either. I think he likes to punch the left from the center. I think he likes to punch the right from the center. I think he's kind of all over the map depending on the issue he's talking about. So I don't. I don't think that you can neatly categorize him into this block or that block, which frankly, I think we need more of in our politics. I literally still, even after debating him and hearing his takes, still have no idea who the f he is. The problem I have with a lot of the wokies when it comes to the debating, I do feel like they've been infected with a weird virus, which gives them a kind of self righteousness that their positioning is not only right, but it's the only acceptable worldview. I have grown, I think, more intellectually honest as I've got older, about accepting when I've been wrong. You've got to know that when facts are facts and if facts change, in particular, you've got to move where the facts go. And you mustn't be intransigent that your worldview, even if it's science and biology, denying, is the only acceptable view. I recommend anyone reading books that they fundamentally disagree with. So if you are somebody who considers themselves spoken liberal, read it. If you are a conservative, you'll be just confirmation bias. Hey, listeners, we have releases coming out every Sunday, so consider subscribing wherever you get your podcasts and also leave us a positive review. We appreciate your time and attention. Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster zero ultron, that's the og it kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing, but Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise, and Vice Guava. And they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the White can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single1.is zero sugar tap the banner to learn more experience the sequel everyone's been waiting for. 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