Top 5 Most Heated Debates | Surrounded

Summary

Surrounded: Top 5 Most Heated Debates | Detailed Episode Summary

Podcast: Surrounded (Jubilee Media)
Episode: Top 5 Most Heated Debates
Release Date: March 29, 2026
Host: John Regolato
Notable Guests: Dr. Jordan Peterson, Amanda Seales, Candace Owens, Sam Seals
Episode Overview:
This episode of Surrounded is a highlight reel of the five most intense and thought-provoking debate moments from the past year. Each segment centers around a highly contested topic, bringing together a single outspoken guest and a group of passionate challengers. The themes range from race and gender to politics, religion, and the Israel-Palestine conflict. The tone is unfiltered, and the dialogue is raw, sometimes confrontational, always striving for genuine understanding—even in disagreement.

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1. DEI, Trump, and the Corporate Agenda

[01:28–07:50]
Key Participants: Sam Seals (Progressive), Multiple Conservatives

Key Discussion Points:

• Sam’s Claim: “Trump’s attack on DEI hides his real goal, which is to give corporations more power.”
• The conservative participants challenge the need for DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) policies, suggesting discrimination is mostly behind us or incentivized by tax breaks.
• Tax Incentives Debate: Conservatives allege both public and private sectors receive tax credits for hiring minorities; Sam pushes back, emphasizing government agencies don’t pay taxes, hence cannot claim tax credits.
• DEI is characterized, by its critics, as performative and reductive to skin color; Sam argues it centers anti-discrimination and equitable opportunity outreach.

Memorable Moments & Quotes:

• On underlying racism:
  Sam Seals [02:07]:
  “I think we all practice, like, some form of white supremacy. I think actually we all do to some degree.”
• On DEI function:
  Conservative Participant [05:35]:
  “DEI emphasizes color. Skin color, physical attitude...”
  Sam Seals [05:40]:
  “It is about. It’s about anti-discrimination.”
• On tax incentives:
  Sam Seals [06:33]:
  “Government agencies don’t pay taxes. Government agencies operate. Are funded by the government.”
  Conservative Participant [06:40]:
  “That is not true. That is not true.”
• Ongoing disagreement over the factual basis of government funding and DEI.

---

2. Working Mothers, Feminism, and Female Fulfillment

[07:55–14:07]
Key Participants: Candace Owens (Conservative), Progressive Host/Participant

Key Discussion Points:

• Fulfillment Through Motherhood vs. Career: Progressive participants cite research that working, educated women and their children fare better on numerous measures.
• Candace Owens strongly disputes the statistics, holding that women who prioritize career over family suffer more depression/anxiety, and that ultimate fulfillment comes from motherhood.
• The discussion devolves into a heated back-and-forth over data accuracy, personal example (Owens’ own working life), and notions of “success” and fulfillment.

Memorable Moments & Quotes:

• On happiness statistics: Podcast Host [08:47]:
  “When you look at stay at home mothers, you see that they’re more likely to report being depressed... So how can you say that seems like a woman. If you want to get married and have kids, you should go to college and have a career.”
• Candace’s pushback:
  Candace Owens [09:45]:
  “It is a dishonest, it is totally a dishonest narrative that men and women want the same things out of life. We don’t. We absolutely do not want the same things out of life.”
• Candace calling out debate tactics:
  Candace Owens [12:27]:
  “All you’re proving is that you have an attitude and you believe in feminism, but you’re not. You see, you’re. That’s what I’m saying. You just have an attitude. And it’s not. It’s not. It’s performative.”
• On modern feminism and domestic skills:
  Candace Owens [11:57]:
  “That is in large part due to feminism. Women don’t even focus. There’s this idea that women shouldn’t be cooking. Like there’s something fundamentally wrong with women even learning how to cook.”

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3. Black-on-Black Crime: Underinvestment, Over-Policing, and Absentee Fathers

[15:00–20:27]
Key Participants: Amanda Seales, Black Community Advocate

Key Discussion Points:

• Amanda’s Claim: Black-on-black crime is the result of systemic underinvestment and over-policing, not an inherent community failing.
• Counter-arguments suggest absentee fathers are a root cause, with poverty and crime being positively correlated.
• Amanda challenges the historical and social roots of “absentee fatherhood,” redirecting blame to systemic patriarchy and policy.
• Statistical manipulation: Amanda points out that statistics used to pathologize the black community have been fabricated or misleading, as shown in a New Jersey example.
• The debate pivots to how black communities were stronger and less crime-ridden during segregation due to self-policing and economic self-reliance, despite greater poverty.

Memorable Moments & Quotes:

• On root causes:
  Black Community Advocate [15:57]:
  “Bad decision making on the part of the fathers. We live in a patriarchal system. Like it or not, men have dominated the socioeconomic, economic, and political power of this country and the world since our existence. So our bad decision making... is the root cause of fatherlessness.”
• On shifting blame:
  Amanda Seals [17:59]:
  “As if there isn’t white on white crime... There are white people killing each other every single day. Now, they may be on jet skis in the pictures after they shoot up their whole family, but nonetheless, there are white people killing each other every single day.”
• On statistical manipulation:
  Amanda Seals [18:54]:
  “And it was proven that they were lying.”

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4. Morality and Purpose: Science vs. Religion

[20:27–25:53]
Key Participants: Dr. Jordan Peterson, Atheist/Agnostic Participant

Key Discussion Points:

• Peterson’s Claim: “Morality and purpose cannot be found within science.”
• The Atheist participant challenges Peterson’s nuanced definitions—"belief," "truth"—and accuses him of evading straightforward answers on the basis of unfalsifiable hypotheticals.
• The two spar over whether one must die for a belief, and if lying to save lives (e.g., hiding Jews in Nazi Germany) is consistent with true belief and morality.
• Peterson argues that hypotheticals like this are traps divorced from context; insists that real morality emerges from lived consequences, not just rational propositions.

Memorable Moments & Quotes:

• Defining belief:
  Dr. Jordan Peterson [21:52]:
  “If you believe something, you stake your life on it.”
• Atheist Participant [22:36]:
  “If someone, like, threatened my life... I would lie in order to be able to save my life.”
• On hard hypotheticals:
  Peterson [23:19]:
  “I would have done everything I bloody well could so I wouldn’t be in that situation to begin with. It’s a hypothetical, and it’s not answering hypotheticals.”
• Atheist Participant [24:04]:
  “Are you uncomfortable with me asking this question? It’s just a basic hypothetical.”
• The exchange gets testy, highlighting the challenge of bringing philosophy into real-world ethical dilemmas.

---

5. Trump’s Gaza Policy: Ethnic Cleansing, Innocence, and Blame

[25:56–29:47]
Key Participants: Progressive Guest, Pro-Israel Participant

Key Discussion Points:

• Progressive Guest’s Claim: “Donald Trump’s plan for Gaza is ethnic cleansing.”
• Pro-Israel participant insists “cleansing” is not “ethnic,” but cultural and ideological, requiring “re-education” for a “hate-taught” population.
• They argue over Gaza’s history, the origins and nature of occupation, and Iran’s influence. The progressive exposes chronological inconsistencies in the Pro-Israel participant’s claims (occupation predates Iranian revolution).
• The conversation grows especially heated around the killing of Palestinian children, with the Pro-Israel participant suggesting “brainwashing,” and the progressive demanding accountability for sniper attacks.
• The segment ends with Pro-Israel participant defending “cleansing the land” in non-ethnic terms, but the implication remains stark and controversial.

Memorable Moments & Quotes:

• On innocence and blame:
  Progressive [26:36]:
  “What about the 17,000 children who were killed?”
  Pro-Israel Participant [26:39]:
  “They’re doing the same.”
• Direct confrontation:
  Progressive [27:57]:
  “Israeli snipers shoot Palestinian children in Gaza in the head... Is that not the fault of Israeli snipers?”
• Controversial assertion:
  Pro-Israel Participant [29:40]:
  “They didn’t say ethnic cleansing. I said cleansing of the land. All right, because you need to cleanse the land.”

---

Notable Quotes Recap

• “If you believe something, you stake your life on it.” —Dr. Jordan Peterson [21:52]
• “I think we all practice, like, some form of white supremacy. I think actually we all do to some degree.” —Sam Seals [02:07]
• “You just have an attitude. And it’s not. It’s not. It’s performative.” —Candace Owens [12:35]
• “That is in large part due to feminism. Women don’t even focus. There’s this idea that women shouldn’t be cooking.” —Candace Owens [11:57]
• “There are white people killing each other every single day. Now, they may be on jet skis in the pictures after they shoot up their whole family, but nonetheless, there are white people killing each other every single day.” —Amanda Seals [17:59]
• “I would have done everything I bloody well could so I wouldn’t be in that situation to begin with.” —Dr. Jordan Peterson [23:19]
• “I said cleansing of the land. All right, because you need to cleanse the land.” —Pro-Israel Participant [29:40]

---

Segment Timestamps

• [01:28–07:50]: DEI, DEIA, Tax Incentives, Trump’s Orders
• [07:55–14:07]: Working Mothers, Feminism, Female Fulfillment
• [15:00–20:27]: Black-on-Black Crime, Underinvestment & Over-policing
• [20:27–25:53]: Morality/Purpose: Science vs. Religion
• [25:56–29:47]: Trump, Gaza, Ethnic Cleansing

---

Final Impressions

This special episode of Surrounded captures the essence of public debate at its rawest—uncomfortable, passionate, and sometimes unresolved. Listeners are left with a mosaic of perspectives on some of the most divisive issues of our time, along with a reminder of the importance and difficulty of real dialogue in a polarized age.

Transcript

[John Regolato]

From Jubilee Media, this is surrounded where one brave soul faces a room full of dis careers. Hey, listeners, this is John Regolato. We are on the road right now recording brand new episodes of the show with some really amazing featured guests. We can't tell you who they are, but we know you guys are going to love them and we can't wait for these episodes to come out. But for today's episode, we are going to dig back into some of the spiciest and most interesting prompts from the past year. The show has had so many interesting interactions, whether they're heated, emotional, or just funny, and we just wanted to share some of our favorites with you. So we hope you enjoy and please do tune in for the episodes that we're filming right now. Thank you guys so much for your support. If you are not a subscriber for the show, please subscribe so that you don't miss the future episodes. We'll see you soon, but in the meantime, enjoy these top five moments.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

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[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

I'm Dr. Jordan Peterson.

[Amanda Seals]

I'm Amanda Seals.

[Candace Owens]

Hi, my name is Candice Owens.

[Sam Seals]

Hi, I'm Sam Seals. I'm Seder. Today I am surrounded by 20 conservatives. My first claim is Trump's attack on DEI hides his real goal, which is to give corporations more power.

[Conservative Participant]

Hi.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

Hi.

[Conservative Participant]

How are you?

[Progressive Participant]

Good.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

How you doing?

[Conservative Participant]

Okay. When it comes to dei, essentially, if a person was not racist, he would hire someone regardless. Right. So why would we need a policy to protect a person if we've moved past racism? So would you consider yourself racist?

[Sam Seals]

Wait, are you suggesting we've moved past racism?

[Conservative Participant]

Would you consider yourself racist?

[Sam Seals]

I consider myself, and sometimes I practice. I think we all practice, like, some form of white supremacy. I think actually we all do to some degree.

[Conservative Participant]

Well, I'm glad that you're saying that. So I guess going to the LGBT topic, it seems like it's very prevalent for you as an issue.

[Sam Seals]

It seems like a big issue. I mean, the Republican Party spent literally hundreds of millions of dollars demonizing trans people.

[Conservative Participant]

Well, the reason why they've Done something like that. And I think you're misconstruing the narrative. They haven't demonized them. They simply want protections back for their own children because children are being stripped

[Sam Seals]

away from who's their own children. Children are being stripped away from their parents.

[Conservative Participant]

Yes. Due to AB950, they've now included gender identity as a premise to remove and strip parental rights for children who. Maybe they are rejecting their gender ideology.

[Sam Seals]

So. But you'd be okay with parents who agree with their children's doctors to provide gender affirming care?

[Conservative Participant]

I do not agree with that. Do you?

[Sam Seals]

I believe that parents and doctors can make those decisions if. With the kids.

[Conservative Participant]

If a child can't smoke, drink, or have sex before the age of 18, they should not be able to consent to a sex change. Now, in terms of a DEI initiative. In terms of a DEI initiative, the reason why there's military bans on trans women and trans men is because they do not have the ability to cooperate at a mental capacity when they're constantly undergoing hormone treatment as well as depression pills, as well as different mood stabilizer pills. And so when you go out to combat, do you really think you're gonna bring an ice cooler pack with your. Whether that be hormone, estrogen or whatever it may be while you're about to shoot someone of the opposing war.

[Sam Seals]

The executive orders that Trump gave were DEIA orders that had to do with agencies that have nothing to do with the military.

[Conservative Participant]

Yes, they do. Yes, they absolutely do.

[Sam Seals]

The fda, they just revoked the ability of the Air Force to teach Air Force members about the Tuskegee Airmen. What are we talking about here? Okay, well, honestly, like they're rewriting history.

[Conservative Participant]

Well, that's your perspective, right? But at the end of the day, if a person.

[Sam Seals]

Tusikigi Airmen, we can all agree existed, Right?

[Conservative Participant]

Just listen to this. If you were racist, right, and you were an employer, and if you wanted to absolutely be racist and exercise that, you would. I think DEI sort of prevents people from seeing the reality. If a person truly wanted to hire you based on your intellect, based on your skill set, they would. DEI essentially provides tax cuts for the end of the year. When you create your tax returns, they give you a tax credit for hiring someone who is black or a person of color.

[Sam Seals]

I don't know if you knew that in these agencies.

[Conservative Participant]

In agencies and private.

[Sam Seals]

In government agencies, they don't get tax cuts for hiring people.

[Conservative Participant]

And the other thing I want. The other thing I want to kind of state here is that I've realized that a Lot of the times with the liberals is that you guys push for. For example, for DEI and people of Latino or Hispanic descent. And a lot of the times what you don't realize is you're actually doing more harm than good by putting them in positions where you make them believe that it's based on the color of their skin.

[Sam Seals]

It's based on DEIA does not. Is not.

[Conservative Participant]

It's based on merit. DEI emphasizes color. Skin color, physical attitude says that you're

[Sam Seals]

the people who work in your agency. It is about. It's about anti discrimination.

[Conservative Participant]

Discrimination against what?

[Sam Seals]

Against people who may have different cultural mores, may have different.

[Conservative Participant]

But that's irrelevant to a job. Right. It should be based on merit. And that is the emphasis.

[Sam Seals]

People get hired as a merit. But if you're. If you're.

[Conservative Participant]

If the dei.

[Sam Seals]

If the deia. I'm talking about Trump's rescission of these orders.

[Conservative Participant]

As an employer, wouldn't you hire. Hire a person of color? Dude, if you could pay them less?

[Sam Seals]

Listen, we're talking about government agencies that do not get tax cuts. They don't.

[Conservative Participant]

They.

[Sam Seals]

Government agencies.

[Conservative Participant]

They don't.

[Sam Seals]

No.

[Conservative Participant]

Yes, they do. They absolutely do.

[Sam Seals]

I'm talking about.

[Conservative Participant]

Every private and public sector gets tax cuts when you hire a person of color.

[Sam Seals]

Government agencies don't pay taxes. Government agencies operate. Are funded by the government.

[Conservative Participant]

That is not true. That is not true. And you know what? I think the whole juxtapose of this entire conversation.

[Sam Seals]

What month is this?

[Conservative Participant]

This is January.

[Sam Seals]

Okay, so we can agree on that. The FDA does not pay taxes. It does not get a tax cut because it doesn't pay taxes. DEIA forces them, as an agency to say, if you have a job opening, you must do your best efforts to make sure that every.

[Conservative Participant]

I like that. I love me a buzzword. You must do your best effort. I love that buzzword.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Okay, pause.

[Conservative Participant]

Because you feel like you have to. You're pressured to.

[Sam Seals]

Yes.

[Conservative Participant]

You shouldn't be pressured to hire someone based on skin color.

[Sam Seals]

No, not to hire someone on skin color, but put up notice about.

[Candace Owens]

About what?

[Sam Seals]

The. That the job exists. Make sure that you put it in different communities so that you have as wide an application pool as possible, and

[Conservative Participant]

therefore you get tax cuts.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

All right, Return tax.

[Conservative Participant]

At the end of the year, when you file taxes, you get a tax cut for hiring someone who speaks a different language or a different skin color.

[Sam Seals]

I don't know how to respond to that.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Nice to meet you.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Okay, so. Well, you say that women are more fulfilled at home with kids than going out into the workforce or getting educated. But that just really doesn't bear out when you look at the stats. When you look at how working mothers are way less likely to be in poverty, maternal education is the number one predictor of childhood outcomes. Better scores, getting higher incomes in the future, fewer behavioral problems, better mental health. So it's weird to me with. And college educated women are least likely to get divorced. And they're the only women. The top 10% of women in socioeconomic. The top 10% of women are the only women whose marriage rates are going. So they're getting married, they're staying married, and their kids are doing better. When you look at stay at home mothers, you see that they're more likely to report being depressed, they're more likely to report having anxiety and anger and all these types of things. So how can you say that seems like a woman. If you want to get married and have kids, you should go to college and have a career.

[Candace Owens]

So it sounds to me like we are looking at totally different statistics, because everything that you said, I've actually read the exact opposite.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

I'm glad we're on a fact check show with you.

[Candace Owens]

Right, Exactly.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Oh, it's so exciting. That's gonna be amazing.

[Candace Owens]

Okay. Because I know, like I said, I think what we're talking is that there was this widespread report on female happiness, and I know that it was formally debunked and it was.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

That's not what I'm talking about. Pew Research, University of California. In fact, working mothers today spend more time with their children than women did in the 1960s that were at home.

[Candace Owens]

Okay, well, women that I can tell you, women that are at home are obviously spending more time with their children than the people who are at work.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

And their children are not faring off any better, and they're faring off worse.

[Candace Owens]

How are you measuring their children faring off worse?

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

How likely they are to higher incomes, better scores, fewer health problems, fewer behavioral issues, and better mental.

[Candace Owens]

So just to get back to the claim that I'm making here is that it is obvious that women who have children are going to be more fulfilled.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

How is that obvious? Because you said so.

[Candace Owens]

No, it's not obvious because I said so. It's because when you look at all the statistics in terms of women who are choosing not to have families, they are, as the person who just sat here before you mentioned, they are suffering from more depression, they're suffering from more anxiety. And I. And yes, when you look at.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

You can't just say voluntarily, don't have Children. No, I'm not saying that, but that's not true.

[Candace Owens]

Okay, it is true. It is actually true that women who are choosing their careers over starting families are finding themselves leaning more onto, on to medicines like Xanax, anxiety inducing medicines and depression because they suspended that timeframe where women really should be looking to find a partner and to start a family because they were instead pursuing their careers.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Why are there.

[Candace Owens]

It has been. It is a dishonest, it is totally a dishonest narrative that men and women want the same things out of life. We don't. We absolutely do not want the same things out of life. In fact, we don't even measure, we don't even measure success the same. Men and women don't even measure success the same.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

So, but tell me how the women who are working and getting educated, why are they faring off better in all of these.

[Candace Owens]

I am telling you that I do not believe they are faring off better in all of these men.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

And you're doing that because. Because of what?

[Candace Owens]

I am telling you that we are looking at totally opposite statistics. Like, so you're sitting here telling me that the statistics show that women who are working are producing better children.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

And I'm saying that 2012 Gallup poll.

[Candace Owens]

Exactly what I'm saying that women that grow up in a two family home where the mother stays at home are faring off better than the children who are being raised in an environment where the women are working, where both of the parents are.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Why don't you stay home?

[Candace Owens]

I do get to work from home.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

No, no, no. But I mean, I've watched your show. You talk about all the nannies you hire and it's so hard to find a good nanny.

[Candace Owens]

Talked about all of the nannies I hired.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Yeah, you have.

[Candace Owens]

I spoke about how difficult it was to find a babysitter who knew how to cook a meal. And that's because you don't need a babysitter.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

You're already, you could retire right now.

[Candace Owens]

You have to let people respond to you when they're, when they're speaking.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

You don't want to.

[Candace Owens]

To respond to you when it's no,

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

you don't want to. You want to be working, which is great.

[Candace Owens]

You're telling me what I want now and then accusing me of telling you.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Wait, are you do you don't want to work.

[Candace Owens]

Can you just let me finish? Because you've said so many words that you just. What you're trying to do here, like your argument style is. I'm going to say so Much. Not let her get a word in and then walk away and feel like I've won. We're not having a conversation because you've not letting me resp.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Go for it.

[Candace Owens]

Okay. What I am saying to you, first, to answer what you just said, which was a lie. What I spoke to you about on the weekends, is that it's been increasingly difficult to find a 25 year old who even knows how to make box macaroni and cheese. Right? And that's crazy. And that is in large part due to feminism. Women don't even focus. Women don't even focus. Like there's this idea that women shouldn't be cooking. Like there's something fundamentally wrong with women even learning how to cook.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Are you spending as much time with your children as you possibly can because that's the way to get the most fulfillment. No.

[Candace Owens]

And that's what I'm trying to say. Say, I am speaking to you.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

So then stop.

[Candace Owens]

Okay. Could you please let somebody get in?

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

I did not.

[Candace Owens]

You actually have not let anybody finish. And like I said, it's. It's. No one benefits when you're just speaking over me and not allowing me to respond. All you're proving is that you have an attitude and you believe in feminism, but you're not. You see, you're. That's what I'm saying. You just have an attitude. And it's not. It's not. It's performative.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Address my point. I will be quiet if you, anybody,

[Candace Owens]

actually feel here that I am being allowed to address any of her points when she just keeps running over me like you. I'm literally trying to. Your first point of you saying that I don't stay at home.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Yeah, fair point. Really weird Fair point.

[Candace Owens]

Obviously, I get that you're all anti Candace and pro feminist, but also, it's not productive if you're not actually.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Okay, address the point. You spend more time saying that. I'm not addressing that. You don't have a chance to talk. When you. The whole time you could have addressed the point and you could have talked about.

[Candace Owens]

I go for it. Just want you to know that you're not coming across as somebody who wants to actually have a conversation. So to get back to the claim, because I don't even know where you're at, you're now talking. You're saying that I said something like, I'll go.

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

Wherever you want to go, I'll go.

[Candace Owens]

Where do you want to start with me working at home? Because I work at home. You just said something about me you

[Podcast Sponsor / Host]

travel all around the world. Okay, I, you, you, you're do you do speeches And I love that. I love how ambitious you are. That's a really great trait. And if you are truly said that you would be more fulfilled. Now one thing you do find is women. They don't want to stay at home when you pull them. They just want flexible working hours and flexible working conditions like you have. And I think we should all advocate for that. It's not one or the other, but when you sit here and you go, you'll be more fulfilled doing this and spend all your time doing that. We would love for you to leave the public eye and go focus on what makes you fulfilled. Okay,

[Amanda Seals]

My day kicks off with a

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

refreshing Celsius energy drink.

[John Regolato]

Then straight to the gym, pre K

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

pickup back home to meal prep.

[John Regolato]

Time for my fire station shift.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

One more Celsius.

[John Regolato]

Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

I'm ready. Celsius Live fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at

[John Regolato]

your local retailer or locate [e-mail]

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

your little one grew 3 inches overnight. Adorable. Also expensive.

[Conservative Participant]

Sell their pint sized pieces on depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees because somewhere a dad refuses

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

to pay full price for the clothes

[Conservative Participant]

his kids will outgrow tomorrow and he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Consider your future growth Bird budget secured. Start selling on Depop where taste recognizes taste.

[Conservative Participant]

Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details.

[Amanda Seals]

My next claim is that black on black crime is a result of underinvestment and over policing.

[Black Community Advocate]

So you say that black on black crime is due to underfunding and over policing? Essentially. I actually don't necessarily disagree with one of those. I think that however, the government. Who do you think should be responsible for the funding piece of the black community, should that be something that the government should step into or should that be something that we as black people need to handle ourselves? Dr. Jordan Peterson and even Thomas Sowell and several others have stated one thing that poverty and crime, there's a positive correlation. There's also a positive correlation in the black community of absentee fatherism being one of the root causes leading into criminality. Black males that grew up without a father are 10 times more likely to engage in criminal activity. And so I think one of the

[Amanda Seals]

Can I put a pin right there and ask you a question?

[Black Community Advocate]

Ask me whatever you like.

[Amanda Seals]

What is the root cause of there being less fathers present Bad decision making

[Black Community Advocate]

on the part of the fathers. We live in a patriarchal system. Like it or not, men have dominated the socioeconomic, economic, and political power of this country and the world since our existence. So our bad decision making, especially when we focus on the black community, is the root cause of fatherlessness.

[Amanda Seals]

What type of decisions?

[Black Community Advocate]

Not marrying the women we decide to lay down and have children with, not being careful with the seeds that we plant in women. No woman can get pregnant without a man planting his seed inside of her. So therefore.

[Amanda Seals]

So it's marriage.

[Black Community Advocate]

Well, that's a part of it. Marriage is a part of it. But the true piece that I'm looking at is connectedness between familial units. The black community was at its economic least strongest while being at its poorest during the segregation era. Prior to 1968, Dr. Martin Luther King, in his last speech, said that we have an annual income of more than $30 billion a year, which is more than all of the exports of Canada and or more than all of the exports of the United States and more than the national budget of Canada. That was when we were economically at our poorest. Yet 85% of our black children were growing up with a father in the home. There was less black on black crime. There was less disenfranchisement.

[Amanda Seals]

Why was there less black on black crime?

[Black Community Advocate]

Because we needed to live together. We had to stick by each other. We had to.

[Amanda Seals]

What was there also less of?

[Black Community Advocate]

I'm not sure where you're leading. That's a leading question. I don't like this.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

We.

[Amanda Seals]

You don't like this?

[Black Community Advocate]

I don't like leading questions. No, I like direct stuff.

[Amanda Seals]

So essentially, when we were living in our own communities, we were also policing our own communities. So we were not being used as statistics in the same way to determine how resources were provided to our own communities. When we were going to the government saying, hey, we deserve. Because we are supposed to be separate but equal, we weren't saying, hey, we want to be with y'.

[Conservative Participant]

All.

[Amanda Seals]

We were essentially saying, we want what you are stating we deserve. And that is what all of the efforts of the civil rights movement has been. It's literally just been to say, you said when we got out of the civil war that we would be considered citizens and all citizens should be getting equal access to these things. However, you are actively allowing the klan to harm us.

[Black Community Advocate]

You are actively allowing who's killed more black people, the klan or us?

[Amanda Seals]

I would like to continue my statement. I let you speak uninterrupted when we talk about this concept of who is harming us. We are really making a false claim when it comes to black on black crime. As if there isn't white on white crime. There's also this unnecessary effort to try and pathologize black on black crime in a way that you don't try to pathologize white on white crime. There are white people killing each other every single day. Now, they may be on jet skis in the pictures after they shoot up their whole family, but nonetheless, there are white people killing each other every single day. Now, much of the reason why you may see more numbers in terms of black on black crime are for two reasons. One, the statistics be lying all the time. We have seen this.

[Black Community Advocate]

Okay, when you say we have seen

[Amanda Seals]

this in a real way. So in New Jersey, when you say

[Black Community Advocate]

no, no, no, what numbers can be trusted? Because with the previous speaker, you just.

[Amanda Seals]

I'm about to tell you right now.

[Black Community Advocate]

Okay, so your source is keeping trust.

[Amanda Seals]

You can't such number. No, I'm literally about to give you an example of numbers not being able to be trusted.

[Black Community Advocate]

Okay, talk to me.

[Amanda Seals]

That's what I was doing. I'm trusting. Okay, then, then listen.

[Black Community Advocate]

Oh, the. My ears on.

[Amanda Seals]

So listen. In New Jersey, they had a statistic that was created by the police department that said, look at how many black people are committing crimes. Look at how crazy this number is. These black people are so exorbitantly violent. Look at this. And then people went and actually matched the names that they were booking with the faces of the actual people incarcerated. And it was proven that they were lying.

[Black Community Advocate]

So that's one. Okay, so that's one instance. Hold on. No, no, you're talking to somebody that works as a police dispatcher when I'm not making content. So here's the thing. No, no, no.

[Amanda Seals]

You see.

[Black Community Advocate]

Well, the truth is, you're about to see the truth if you just give me a second. Like Trump said, just give me a second. I'm gonna do the weave, but give me a minute.

[Amanda Seals]

Well, here's what you all keep doing. You keep interrupting me when I'm talking, and you don't want to hear the point that I'm gonna make the point that you're. And yet you want me to respect your point. And that's not how a debate works. So if you want me to keep getting louder, I will do it. But ultimately, if I show you respect, give me the respect back. I let you talk. I let you make your points. I am countering your points. And my points are just as valid as yours. Even Though you got a pocket square and a Church of Christ pin on your chest.

[Black Community Advocate]

It's not a Church of Christ.

[Amanda Seals]

Whatever. It's a cross. Same difference. You got an American flag and you think you know something because you a cop and ultimately not a cop. It's ACAB all day over here. So let me make that clear. But let me also add to my point. My point is that you can sit here and blame black people on black people all day long and not acknowledge that we are forced into. You're coming to interrupt me again?

[Black Community Advocate]

I haven't even said a word.

[Amanda Seals]

All right, that is flags. So I'm gonna ask you to return to your seat. It's a waste of my time. Y' all just want to be seen. I don't need to be seen.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

My next claim is that morality and purpose cannot be found within science. How you doing?

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Nice to meet you.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

Nice to meet you.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

I guess since you said morality and purpose cannot be found in science, it would just depend on, like, what you're referencing. If you're saying a description of your psychological preferences would be considered within science, sure. But I don't think that you have to say that it comes from science in order to be like an atheist. As an agnostic atheist, I don't know if God exists, and I don't believe that a God exists. And the only ones that I would really reject would be like, the all knowing, all powerful, all good, perfect notion of God that plenty of Christians prescribe themselves.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

How is that relevant to this claim?

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

You're basing a position of morality and purpose in some notion of God that isn't the same type of notion of God that typical Christians would prescribe. Your notion of God is what typical Christians? Yeah. Typically when I talk to Christians, they say that they believe in all knowing

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

about Cardinal Newman, who defined God as conscience. He was a major influence on all of Catholic social theory. How about that? Christian?

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Sure. So do you believe in the all knowing, all powerful, all good notion of God?

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

What do you mean by believe?

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Do you think it to be true?

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

That's the circular definition. What do you mean believe?

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

How is that circular?

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

Because you added no content to the answer by substituting the word true and believe.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

I said you think it to be true.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

All right, so if you believe something, you stake your life on it.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

What do you mean by that?

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

You live for it and you die for it. That's what I mean by that. It isn't something that you say. It isn't something that's associated with logical consistency. It's not declarative. It's not propositional. It's not a figment of your imagination. It's the presupposition of your attention and your action. And you're either fragmented, in which case you worship multiple gods, or there's some unity at the bottom of it that. That makes you an unstoppable force.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Okay, so you're saying that you don't believe something if you wouldn't die for it?

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

No. Really? No. Okay, so then how would you define belief?

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Something you say, I could believe. It is the case that this pen exists, but if someone, like, threatened my life. Right. I would lie in order to be able to save my life. Right. Like, I think you would do that, too. You wouldn't lie to save your life.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

Don't be so sure.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

You wouldn't lie to save your life.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

How much do you know about me? I didn't lie to save my career. I didn't lie to save my clinical practice.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Would you lie to, like, save your children? Your mom, your dad?

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

I don't think lying would save them.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Can there ever be a circumstance, logically, that lying could save someone?

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

Yeah. And if you're steeped in sin, you're likely to live in circumstances like that.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

I'll give you an example. If you're, like, in, like, Nazi Germany and it is the case that there's, like, Jewish people in your attic and you're trying to protect them, would you lie to, like, the Nazis?

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

I would have done everything I bloody well could so I wouldn't be in that situation to begin with. It's a hypothetical, and it's not answering hypotheticals. No, I can't answer a hypothetical like that because. Look, don't play games.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

I'm not playing games.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

If you present me with an intractable moral choice that's stripped of context and you back me into a corner, you're playing game. I just told you I would do everything that I could to make sure that I'm never in that situation. By the time you've got there, you've made so many mistakes that there's nothing you can do. That isn't a sin.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Being born in Nazi Germany and trying to protect people that you care about. Like, there could be a Jewish friend that you have and you want to protect them.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

I think you should give up on that line of questioning.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Give up on just, like, trying to clarify your position because you don't, like. Are you, like, uncomfortable with me asking this question? It's just a basic hypothetical. Like, I could ask you.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

It's just a basic hypothetical where you're like, you put Jews lives at stake and not policy Germany. Now, it's just a basic idea.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Obviously you would lie in that scenario to save their life. But you're like, not trying to answer this question for some reason I just told you why are you anti fascist? Like, so you're antifascist?

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

I'm asking that.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

I was just asking, just clarifying. But like, okay, again, you're not answering this hypothetical because you know it shows that you clearly would lie to save someone's life.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

Answering it, obviously that's not what truth is you find acceptable.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Obviously, because I care about truth.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

I wouldn't be in that scenario, obviously.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Right. Logically, because that already happened. Like, that's in the past. You don't have a time to travel device where you bring this logical hypothetical up to show you that in some circumstances that do happen within the real world, you would lie to save people's lives. So your definition of truth isn't actually how we're typically using it. So what you're trying to do is you're trying to muddy the waters when I ask you, like, do you believe this? Do you think this to be true? So you don't actually have to answer the questions. And plenty of Christians don't like that because they clearly see that you don't really, like, want to be associated with Christianity.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

Imagine that I was in a situation where the best I could do as a consequence of my previous mistakes was to tell the least amount of lie I could manage. But that would likely indicate that I had made all sorts of catastrophic errors on my way there.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

So you would lie to save someone's life. So again, you do believe it to be true in that circumstance, even though you, like, lied in that scenario.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

So not without the context that I put it in.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

You were not willing to die for it. You were not willing to let other people die for it. So that's not what you see to be true, then. Seemingly

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

you're doing exactly what I said you were doing at the beginning of the conversation. You're generating an impossible restricted hypothetical with no precursors to back me into a.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

How is it possible? Is there something contradictory about it? Nice to meet you.

[Dr. Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, nice to meet you too.

[Progressive Participant]

My final claim is that Donald Trump's plan for Gaza is ethnic cleansing.

[Conservative Participant]

No one.

[Amanda Seals]

Great.

[Progressive Participant]

Hello, sir. Welcome back.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

All right, so I agree that Trump wants to do a cleansing, but not an ethnic one, because that area requires a lot of cleansing. Because when you have a population that was taught from early childhood age. To hate Jews, Christians and pagans, you need some serious re education.

[Progressive Participant]

Number one, that's not true. And number two, that's not what he's proposing.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Well, I mean, most Palestinians by polling number do support Hamas.

[Progressive Participant]

They support resisting Israel.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Well, I mean, the thing is, you know, what did they do in the first place that they're in this, what you call open air prison?

[Progressive Participant]

Great question. What did they do to deserve being occupied?

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Well, here's the thing. Because the Islamic Republic in Iran is using them as a tool. What is Iran as a tool for their Islamic expansion.

[Progressive Participant]

When did the Islamic.

[Atheist/Agnostic Participant]

Hold on.

[Progressive Participant]

When did the Islamic Republic of Iran. You're Iranian? American, I believe.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Yes, I am.

[Progressive Participant]

When was the Islamic Republic of Iran founded?

[Pro-Israel Participant]

1979.

[Progressive Participant]

When was Gaza occupied by Israel?

[Pro-Israel Participant]

19. Well, the very first. 67.

[Progressive Participant]

Yeah, so can we do the maths together? 12 years before the Islamic Republic of Iran existed, Israel was oppressing, occupying, dispossessing the people of Gaza. So your argument makes no sense.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Were there any terrorist organizations at the time?

[Progressive Participant]

The PLO was considered a terrorist organization by the entire Western world.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

All right, so what's Hamas there?

[Progressive Participant]

Hamas did not exist till the 1980s.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Exactly. My point is, after the Islamic Republic came, it became chaotic because the Islamic Republic started to use the so called innocent Palestinians for their own so called innocent Palestinians.

[Progressive Participant]

You don't think Palestinians are innocent?

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Not all of them.

[Progressive Participant]

What about the 17,000 children who were killed?

[Pro-Israel Participant]

They're doing the same.

[Progressive Participant]

17,000 children were killed. Were they not innocent? Were they not innocent?

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Who's responsible for that?

[Progressive Participant]

Israel dropped the bomb.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Hamas is responsible. Hamas is responsible for hiding in hospitals and banking tunnels underneath the house.

[Progressive Participant]

So when children are shot in the head by Israeli snipers, Israeli snipers are not responsible for that.

[Black Community Advocate]

Look, it's a simple question.

[Conservative Participant]

Here's the problem.

[Progressive Participant]

Israeli snipers shoot Palestinian children in Gaza in the head. As eyewitness testimony and doctor's testimony proves that's not the fault of the Israeli snipers.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

This is a problem. Because when you have a problem, the

[Progressive Participant]

problem is you won't answer the question. I'll ask you a third time. When Israeli snipers shoot Palestinian children in the head, is that not the fault of Israeli snipers?

[Pro-Israel Participant]

You gotta let me finish.

[Progressive Participant]

No, you gotta answer the question. Fourth time, when Israeli snipers get to the Palestinian children in the head. We're running out of time. I need to know what you think about innocent, innocent children. Because what you said was pretty outrageous. You said innocent Palestinians for the fifth time, when Palestinian children are shot in the head by Israeli snipers. They're not the fault of Israel.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

What did the children do?

[Progressive Participant]

What did they tell me? Did the children deserve to be shot in there?

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Because the problem is millions of people are watching. You say they start brainwashing children. They start brainwashing children at a very long age.

[Progressive Participant]

So you support sniping children in Gaza. Look, do other people here support sniping children in Gaza? Is that a conservative position now?

[Pro-Israel Participant]

What if they're wearing a suicide vest?

[Progressive Participant]

They weren't.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

But what if they are?

[Progressive Participant]

They're not, though. I have friends who went there. Doctors went to those American doctors. They came back as we have multiple children.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

What if they're. What if they're helping killing you and your family?

[Progressive Participant]

A ten year old child, an eight year old child, a six year old child.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Because. Because you're sitting on their brainwashing television.

[Progressive Participant]

Millions of people are going to see your neighbors, your friends, millions of people

[Pro-Israel Participant]

killing of millions of people don't know what's going on.

[Progressive Participant]

Even your fellow right wingers are saying, don't go this far. Genocide, sure, but don't.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

Millions of people don't understand the brainwashing that is going on in Islamic Republic and in Palestine to create with Iran

[Progressive Participant]

so much that you're supporting the killing of Palestinian children who never harmed you or any other Israeli. That's insane. Look, and the fact that you support Trump's ethnic cleansing now doesn't surprise me.

[Pro-Israel Participant]

They didn't say ethnic cleansing. I said cleansing of the land. All right, because you need to cleanse the land.

[Amanda Seals]

You've been voted out. Please return to your seat.

[John Regolato]

Thank you guys for listening. That was the top five moments we selected from this past year and we are so excited for new episodes coming out. So if you are not a subscriber, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're interested in video versions of the episodes, we have the full main episodes as well as now follow up episodes of the podcast available on Jubilee's YouTube channel. So give us a subscription there. Thank you guys so much for listening and we will see you next time.