What Has The Manosphere Taught Us? | Surrounded Follow-Up

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What Has The Manosphere Taught Us?" | Surrounded Follow-Up

Podcast: Surrounded by Jubilee Media
Date: July 27, 2026
Guests: Mark Manson (author, coach), Joe Mari, Will, Jessica, Michael, Host (Interviewer)

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Episode Overview

This follow-up episode dissects the explosive Surrounded debate on the Manosphere—a loosely defined online movement focused on men’s issues, dating, relationships, and masculinity. Host and guests dive deep into the origins and growth of manosphere ideology, cultural anxieties about sex, obsession with “body count,” porn’s impact on men, and the phenomenon of “looksmaxing” (the pursuit of maximizing physical attractiveness). Mark Manson, former dating coach and bestselling author, provides empathetic, research-based takes and challenges pervasive, often toxic narratives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mark Manson’s Relationship to the Manosphere [01:12]

• Expertise & Evolution:
  Mark describes his history as a dating coach in the late 2000s, when he encountered the early “Red Pill,” “pickup artist,” and emerging manosphere communities.
  Quote:

  “As a young man dating relationship coach, it was inevitable that I would start kind of bumping up against today what we call the manosphere. Back then it was called the Red Pill.” —Mark Manson [01:49]

• Manosphere’s Resurgence:
  Mark expresses concern and surprise at the manosphere's return:

  “I've been both shocked and a little bit alarmed that this strain of thinking has come back with such a vengeance over the last few years. It's been troubling to me.” —Mark Manson [03:28]

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2. The “Body Count” Debate: Sex as Value? [04:40–09:35]

• Car & Mileage Analogy:
  Joe Mari uses a car analogy—lower sexual history equals higher value.

  “Women are exactly like cars.” —Mark Manson (sarcastically referencing the analogy) [04:40]
  “If everybody's had a turn and nobody's enjoyed it, why do I want to get you now?” —Joe Mari [05:32]

• Mark’s Response:
  Mark challenges the transactional lens, citing research showing these factors (body count) aren’t predictive of happy relationships:

  “When you look at the research of what makes for a happy relationship, these things aren’t even on the map.” —Mark Manson [00:00, 04:55, 13:44]

  He diagnoses a deeper issue:

  “A lot of these guys...see female sexuality as almost kind of like a scarce resource. Ultimately, for them, relationships with women is largely transactional...The problem is that a healthy relationship is by definition, not transactional. It’s in many ways unconditional.” —Mark Manson [05:57]

• Generational & Social Shifts:
  The host and Mark reflect on how casual sex was more normalized in the 2000s, but Gen Z is more anxious, perhaps less forgiving, and risk-averse due to digital permanence and changing values [07:49].

  “It feels like the younger generation these days put so much importance on...these...behaviors. I really do think there is something about growing up with phones and...everything being documented...that has made Gen Z kind of socially paranoid.” —Mark Manson [09:07]

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3. Post #MeToo Anxiety & Sexual Policing [09:35–12:23]

• High Stakes Culture:
  The host draws parallels to public figures whose youthful behavior haunts them (e.g., Kavanaugh), suggesting an “overcorrection”—youths avoid sex/porn for fear of consequences.

  “Every decision I make in my youth...can go on to really impact me in a big way...It almost feels like maybe there’s just been an overcorrection. Like we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.” —Host [11:07]

• Religion and Inflexibility:
  Mark notes that for some, these attitudes resemble religious dogma—rigid, moralistic, and resisting critical dialogue:

  “There doesn’t really seem to be...any sort of willingness to critically argue...there’s almost religious belief of ‘this is how women are...supposed to behave.’” —Mark Manson [11:07]

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4. Is Body Count Correlated with Relationship Outcomes? [13:22–18:08]

• Michael’s Claim:
  Michael cites studies showing higher “body count” predicts higher divorce rates.

  “The more sort of sexual history that you have...the higher the predictability of divorces...If the woman slept with over 10 [men]...that cohort had by far the highest divorce rate.” —Michael [14:12]

• Mark’s Rebuttal—Correlation ≠ Causation:
  Mark accepts the data, but insists the link isn’t causal; personality traits drive both higher body count and relationship difficulties.

  “You could easily argue that people who are more spontaneous and novelty-seeking are probably gonna have higher body counts and...be less interested in being monogamous...that’s not necessarily the body count causing the failure in the marriage.” —Mark Manson [15:50]

• Sexual Insecurity and Obsession:
  Mark proposes men’s fixation stems from insecurity:

  “Everybody has sexual insecurities...If you're with a woman who's been with 20 other guys and you've only been with two girls...that can be very intimidating for you. But rather than admitting that...it's just easier to blame the woman and call her a slut.” —Mark Manson [17:17]

• Evolutionary Roots of Jealousy:

  “Men tend to be more sexually jealous and women tend to be more emotionally jealous...It's called the naturalist fallacy—just because we evolve this way doesn't mean we should behave this way.” —Mark Manson [18:49, 19:18]

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5. The Roots and Impacts of Porn [21:50–40:37]

• Is Porn More Damaging than Feminism?
  Jessica argues feminism is inescapable, unlike porn. Mark draws a parallel:

  “If 11 year olds were getting access to cigarettes and alcohol every day, would you make the same argument that like, well, those 11-year-olds, they can choose not to indulge...?” —Mark Manson [24:12]

• Feminism vs. Porn: Which is the Problem?
  Mark asserts that anti-feminist arguments ignore international data, as men struggle in both feminist and non-feminist societies.

  “If feminism was the problem...you would see a clear pattern across all of the most progressive countries...and you do not.” —Mark Manson [23:03]

• Sex Positivity, Feminism, and Historical Context:
  Mark notes that “sex-positive feminism” grew in the 1990s–2000s, but conditions have changed (free, ubiquitous online porn and OnlyFans), requiring cultural re-evaluation [27:51–29:59].

• Porn’s Social and Psychological Fallout:
  Mark frames the debate as a left/right tension:

  • The right values stable families, which data shows is “good for human flourishing”
  • The left's role is forgiveness and leniency regarding sexuality

  “But the problem is those two things are very much in tension with one another...it's hard to land the plane on both of those simultaneously.” —Mark Manson [31:33–34:21]

• Debate Over Regulation and Prohibition:
  Mark opposes prohibition (“you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube”) but sees value in “nudges”—regulations akin to those around alcohol and cigarettes [36:28].

  “Porn consumption disproportionately harms men...On the flip side, OnlyFans has made it remarkably easy for women to become porn creators.” —Mark Manson [36:28]

  Corrects manosphere claims with actual stats:

  “It's more like, I think, 2 to 3% of women under 30 have an OnlyFans account, which...is actually shockingly high.” —Mark Manson [38:03]

• Loneliness and Social Isolation:
  Mark views manosphere fixation as symptomatic of broader male loneliness and social withdrawal:

  “A very large part of this, I do think, is related to the loneliness crisis and the social isolation that is happening in our culture.” —Mark Manson [39:33]

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6. The “Looksmaxing” Movement [40:37–51:00]

• Will’s Claim:
  Will asserts women care more about looks than personality (“looksmaxing” means maximizing male attractiveness to compete).

  “I will concede...appearance is probably...at the most premium that it’s ever been.” —Mark Manson [41:42]
  “Once you get in, say, a month into the relationship, it’s almost not a factor anymore. It’s almost all personality.” —Mark Manson [41:58]

• Divergent Views:
  Will counters that looks remain important throughout relationships. Mark responds that over-indexing on looks will ultimately harm men’s relationship prospects.

  “Looks absolutely matter...But the problem is when people over index on looks and just assume they're the only thing that matters...that’s when you get into trouble.” —Mark Manson [43:48]

• Host’s Cultural Assessment:
  Host notes that men are now being objectified, echoing historic pressure on women. The male response is to optimize appearance, not develop soft skills.

  “To me, it's more of a feminization of men because it's like men are entering the sexual marketplace now more as objects.” —Host [45:33]

• Mark’s “Harebrained Theory”:
  Mark links looksmaxing to the reversal of the gender hierarchy among young adults—young women now outperform men in education and income, so men compensate by focusing on physical appeal.

  “If you imagine you're a 23 year old guy...every girl you meet has a better job than you, went to a better school, is making more money...it makes sense that men start doing the thing that women did for centuries...maximize their appearance.” —Mark Manson [47:13]

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• On Transactional Dating:

  “A healthy relationship is by definition, not transactional. It’s in many ways unconditional.”
  —Mark Manson [05:57]

• On Generational Sexual Anxiety:

  “It feels like the younger generation these days put so much importance on…these…behaviors. It was actually seen as a time to experiment [for us], but now Gen Z is kind of socially paranoid…everything potentially being documented and recorded permanently.”
  —Mark Manson [09:07]

• On Sexual Insecurity and Blame:

  “It’s just easier to blame the woman and call her a slut and denigrate her for it.”
  —Mark Manson [17:17]

• On the Naturalist Fallacy:

  “Just because we evolve this way doesn't mean we should behave this way.”
  —Mark Manson [19:18]

• On Porn and Regulation:

  “You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube…The syntax is maybe unfortunately worded, but I do think it makes sense. It's what we do with cigarettes and alcohol, right?”
  —Mark Manson [36:28]

• On Looksmaxing and Gender Hierarchy Reversal:

  “If you imagine you're a 23 year old guy and every girl you meet has a better job than you...so how can you make yourself stand out? It makes sense that men start doing the thing that women did for centuries...maximize their appearance.”
  —Mark Manson [47:13]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:49] – Mark’s early exposure to the “Red Pill”/manosphere
• [05:04] – The car analogy and the “party girl” debate
• [07:49] – Generational shift: From early 2000s hookup culture to Gen Z anxiety
• [09:07] – Impact of digital permanence on sexual behavior
• [13:44] – The body count/studies debate with Michael
• [18:49] – Jealousy: Evolutionary psychology and the “naturalist fallacy”
• [24:12] – Porn as a societal harm: Youth exposure arguments
• [27:51] – Sex positive feminism, comparative international context
• [31:33] – Regulatory approaches to porn (syntax, prohibition vs. nudges)
• [39:33] – Loneliness crisis and manosphere beliefs
• [41:42] – Looksmaxing; Mark and Will debate the primacy of looks
• [47:13] – Mark’s theory: Looksmaxing as a response to economic gender shifts

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Tone & Takeaways

Empathetic, evidence-based, and open-minded. Mark Manson brings a reflective, non-combative energy, earnestly diagnosing the psychological roots of manosphere talking points and exposing the flaws in popular “red pill” logic. Through candid exchanges and data-driven insights, the episode challenges listeners to look past surface arguments and recognize both the cultural pains and the distorted “solutions” now circulating about masculinity and relationships.

Bottom Line:
While modern dating and masculinity are fraught with anxieties—fueled by digital culture, social isolation, gender role shifts, and sexual policing—host and guests argue for curiosity, nuance, and psychological health over rigid dogma or panic-driven fixes.

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For those wanting a deeper understanding of manosphere debates, sexual culture shifts, and modern male anxieties, this episode offers clarity, compassion, and plenty of myth-busting.

Transcript

[Mark Manson]

Actually, when you look at the research of, like, what makes for a happy relationship, these things aren't even on the map.

[Joe Mari]

Okay, so if a woman has, let's say, 12, 13, 17 bodies, how many relationships have you been in? Three.

[Mark Manson]

Because women are exactly like cars. Obviously, relationships with women is largely transactional. And when you are approaching a relationship in a transactional way, you're trying to get the best deal possible. Porn consumption disproportionately harms men.

[Interviewer / Host]

All right, all right. I'm here with Mark Manson. Great job in Surrounded. Thanks for jumping into the arena and thanks for doing this follow up.

[Mark Manson]

Of course, it was. It was an experience.

[Interviewer / Host]

It was an experience. You're not like a debate me, bro. That's not kind of your brand as much. Have you done anything remarkably similar to Surrounded?

[Joe Mari]

No.

[Mark Manson]

Normally I would not be interested in doing this at all, but given the topic was the manosphere, and I guess kind of given the unique nature of where my career started and my history with these types of guys, it actually felt like a great opportunity and I felt well positioned to be the person to do it, I guess you could say.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, well, there's always been a manosphere, ish, like, strain in our culture, especially American culture. Would you consider yourself, like, kind of adjacent to that? Like you were in kind of like the, you know, the self esteem, self help kind of niche of culture. Your book, the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, very popular book, kind of at the time it came out, did you see yourself as sort of like, adjacent to kind of that niche of culture when it came out? But obviously it's turned into something different now. How do you think about it?

[Mark Manson]

So to go back even further than that, like, well, before I wrote Subtle Art, I built my first audience online as a dating relationship coach in the late 2000s, early 2010s, and as a young man dating relationship coach, it was inevitable that I would start kind of bumping up against today what we call the manosphere. Back then it was called the Red Pill. There's also kind of a branch of it called the pickup Artists.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's what I'm familiar with. Like the pickup artist era.

[Mark Manson]

Yes.

[Interviewer / Host]

VH1 had a show, right?

[Mark Manson]

Yes, it had a whole moment. So I used to run into these guys all the time. Like, I mean, honestly, early in my career, these guys were my clients. And I remember getting into these debates with them around women and sex and relationships and what is healthy and what is natural and what is normal and smart. You know, some of them have actually done quite a Bit of digging into evolutionary psychology and sociology and history. And so I remember kind of going through a phase at that time of feeling like I needed to educate myself on a lot of these sort of sorts of topics or topics adjacent to this, just because I just found myself arguing with so many of these guys. So it was it this, the surrounded episode, in many ways felt like a little bit of a full circle moment for me in that I think now I'm kind of the older generation. I'm in my 40s, and I think most of the guys there were probably 20s or early 30s. And I've been both shocked and a little bit alarmed that this strain of thinking has come back with such a vengeance over the last few years. It's been troubling to me. And so when you guys reached out, like I said, normally I don't like to do debate type of things and get in arguments on the Internet. In fact, I generally avoid arguments on the Internet. But when you guys reached out, I was like, okay, I feel like I have to do this.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, well, we appreciate it. And I think that that shows, though, the. Just the general energy. And you'll see in these clips, because you haven't seen any of the footage as we're recording this in the clips. It's not a very debatey energy. You're not a combative person relative to some of our previous guests. And I'm really excited to jump into this because obviously I'm also a man, and these topics weave through my experience. Before we go to Michael, I want to do Joe. Mari had a metaphor for body count, which was essentially buying a car, because

[Mark Manson]

women are exactly like cars.

[Interviewer / Host]

Obviously there's certain amount of miles on one car versus another. He's kind of using that as an analogy for body count. I'm obviously going to buy the car with fewer miles. And this exchange happens just shortly after that.

[Mark Manson]

And so that's what everybody thinks about and talks about when it's actually when you look at the research of, like, what makes for a happy relationship. Relationship. These things aren't even on the map.

[Joe Mari]

Okay, so if a woman has, let's say, 12, 13, 17 bodies, how many relationships have you been in? Three. What's up with the other 14 people?

[Mark Manson]

She probably likes to party.

[Joe Mari]

Then go party. We don't have to be together, but you can.

[Mark Manson]

Or maybe she used to like the party, but now she's ready to settle down.

[Joe Mari]

Not with me. If you. If you can decide who you open your legs for, you can't decide who gets down on One knee for you.

[Jessica]

Can.

[Mark Manson]

Can I. Can I ask why not with you?

[Joe Mari]

If everybody's had a turn and nobody's enjoyed it, why do I want to get you now?

[Interviewer / Host]

All right, we've got pause there. You've been voted out. To quote what he said, if, if, if you're spreading your legs for, for these people, why do I want to get down on one knee for you? So there's kind of. There is sort of a consequential negative valence that he's putting on sex. What's your reaction? Just sort of that framework.

[Mark Manson]

A lot of these guys, in my experience, they see female sexuality as almost kind of like a scarce resource. And it's like if she has expended it with other men, then it. It's. She's a less valuable asset. And I have a feeling we're probably going to kind of come back to this theme quite a bit through throughout our conversation, because this is kind of the meta thing that's happening, I think, with a lot of these men is that ultimately for them, relationships with women is largely transactional. And when you are approaching a relationship in a transactional way, you're trying to get the best deal possible. And so when you're trying to optimize for the best deal possible, it makes sense that you start kind of objectifying and quantifying a lot of these things. The problem is that a healthy relationship is by definition, not transactional. It's in many ways unconditional. Right, right. It's a mentality that I think is self defeating, and I think it kind of undergirds a lot of these sexist or misogynistic attitudes that these guys have.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. Something that also came to mind during that exchange was I think actually culturally, so much has changed even since kind of my coming of age experience and probably yours as well. And now sex feels so much higher stakes now than it does. And so when he kind of said, somebody has a lot of bodies, you're like, she's probably likes to party. That actually made me think more of like the early 2000s. And what I just remember kind of sleeping around being like, much more normalized at that time. And, like, studies show that young people are having sex less. Do you think that retreat from sexual experiences is good, bad, or just more like kind of a product of how online culture has changed and kind of taken up more of the pie?

[Mark Manson]

I think that's a really good point because you're right. I think you and I are probably around the same age. And yeah, when I was Young partying is what you did. It's what everybody did. I can't really say if it's a good or bad thing, whether, you know, say, young people these days are partying less, having less sex than they used to. I think there's both good and bad aspects of it. What I do think is definitely bad is that it feels like the younger generation these days put so much importance on a lot of these sorts of behaviors. Like, I, like, I feel like our generation and our parents generation, mistakes were tolerated. If you kind of got off the rails for a year or two in your early 20s, people just kind of understood. They're like, oh, yeah, that happens. It was kind of, in fact, that period of life was actually seen as a time to experiment, make some mistakes, embarrass yourself a little bit, and then grow from it. I really do think there is something about growing up with phones and growing up with everything potentially being documented and recorded permanently that has made Gen Z kind of socially paranoid in a lot of ways.

[Sponsor Voice]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

Cause then there, it feels like there isn't that forgiveness that if they do kind of have a wayward year or two, or if they do mess up and hook up with the wrong person, they're gonna be punished for it. So I, I, I, that's, that's the mentality that I don't think is healthy and definitely makes me sad. And I definitely see that with this guy Joe. Like, it's kind of, there's like an intolerance of, no, she's not allowed to have made mistakes if I'm going to marry her.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, it feels high stakes in sort of his, his mindset and attitude about it kind of building off of what you said, there is sort of this sense of anxiety. I mean, even if you think about, like, the Brett Kavanaugh hearings that happened when he was entering the Supreme Court and we were kind of rewinding all the way back to his high school experience and of, like, getting drunk with his friends and potentially allegedly committing a sexual crime or a sexual harassment. I don't know if it was rape. I can't remember the specifics, but it was alleged behavior, obviously not confirmed, but that turned into a very public thing. And so there was, I think, with this, like, me too moment, the sense of, like, every decision I make in my youth, even in high school, I mean, that can go on to really impact me in a big way. And it was maybe, I think it was rooted in a healthy sense that we need to rewrite the rules of sexual behavior in our culture and to kind of correct right some of the wrongs of maybe a misogynistic baseline that existed. But then I could also see how it probably made people get freaked out and be like, whoa, I maybe just shouldn't be having sex or porn or OnlyFans is a safer, lower stakes place to have sexual experiences than irl. It almost feels like maybe there's just been an overcorrection. Like we've thrown the baby out with the bath water. Like, forget sex, period. It's too scary, too, Too dangerous.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

I mean, it's ironic though, right? Because guys like this, there's almost. And I, I don't know if, if some of these people will make the cut, but there were some people in the circle that their beliefs were just very rooted and kind of a religious beliefs around men, women, how men are supposed to behave, how women are supposed to behave. And I would say this guy Joe, it's like he. He seems to kind of be bordering on that. Like, there doesn't really. He doesn't really seem to be approaching it with any sort of willingness to critically argue. Like there's kind of just this almost religious belief of just this is how women are and this is how they're supposed to behave. In a way. I think the point you bring up, because there's absolutely been, I think, second order effects from me too, you know, as somebody who talks to a lot of young men in my line of work, like, I see it, I talk to young guys all the time who grew up during that period and they're kind of just terrified to say or do anything around a woman. It makes sense that that would potentially give an opening for this kind of old school, conservative mindset around sex. Of like, well, yeah, you're not supposed to be talking to her. You're not supposed to hook up at a party, because that's just not.

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[Mark Manson]

Right. That's immoral.

[Interviewer / Host]

So this was with an exchange you had with Michael, also about body count. And he wasn't as far as Jomari was, where it was like, this is is what it is and it matters. And I can't respect somebody. His was kind of more like. But it does matter some. Right. So this is the exchange you and Michael had.

[Mark Manson]

If you're a single man and you're meeting a woman on the list of things that you should be concerned about, that you should be worried about, it is so low on that list that you shouldn't even think about it. You should be primarily concerned. Is she trustworthy? Do you communicate well? Is she fun to be around? Do you have shared values? Do you see yourselves going long term together? What she's done in the past is a very, very tiny, tiny factor in

[Will]

all of those things.

[Michael]

Yeah. So I think that that's interesting, but I would say that I think that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that body count and sleeping around and having a lot of sexual partners and experiences actually directly relates to a lot of those traits that you mentioned. So I'm specifically thinking about a study or meta analysis from the University of Utah which found that the more sort of sexual history that you have, the more body counts that you have, the higher the predictability of divorces. So I think that the. The specific study that I'm referencing over if the woman slept as, let's say, over 10 woman is what I think it was, though that cohort had by far the highest divorce rate or predictability of divorce. And I think that that's pretty intuitive, right? Like, if I had a wife and you had a wife, and my wife slept with three women and your wife slept with 40 women, and, you know, we're hanging out and let's say the pool guy comes over and he's going to open up our pool, whose wife do you think has a higher likelihood when the pool guy's 18 pack is out, whose wife do you think has the higher likelihood of sleeping with pool guy?

[Interviewer / Host]

I think the pool guy analogy is a little outdated.

[Mark Manson]

I love it. But I think.

[Interviewer / Host]

I think he's making an interesting point. I think he meant sleeping with men, not women.

[Will]

Yes.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay, so let's say, like, there's a Misogynist. A misogynist quality to caring about a woman's body count where it's like, okay, you're, you're over judging her behavior than maybe men's behavior. So that could be true, but there also probably is some data that, that might give us more insights into how body count correlates to behavior. And marriage is a complex decision, so it should matter some, right?

[Mark Manson]

I mean, the study he's quoting is legitimate, but what's interesting is that the researchers behind that study and a few others, they're not able to prove that it's causal. So, I mean, you could easily argue that people who are more spontaneous and novelty seeking are probably gonna have higher body counts and they're also probably gonna be less interested in being monogamous in a marriage. That's not necessarily the body count causing the failure in the marriage.

[Interviewer / Host]

The correlation might not be the causation.

[Mark Manson]

Exactly. So, I mean, look, and this is one thing that I kept trying to kind of bring back to the guys when I was in the circle is like, yes, it's a variable, right? And especially when if you're coming from a particularly religious background or a conservative background, like, you just. It's part of your belief system, right? That sex is sacred and it should be something that is like highly valued and it's really only safe for your, your spouse, that's fine. My point is simply like, this isn't something you should be obsessing over. That. And, and what was interesting, and you probably remember this, is that even when we tried to move on to other claims, guys kept bringing back the body count discussion over and over again. We actually, I think at one point you had to cut them off and be like, stick to the current claim.

[Interviewer / Host]

I always have to. I'm like, we gotta stay on the prompt.

[Mark Manson]

So the manosphere in general seems to have a kind of a strange fixation on this. And I personally think that it's really just rooted in insecurity. You know, as, as I think men, everybody has sexual insecurities. When with men, it, it tends to revolve around performance and whether, you know, you're, you're living up to expectations for her. And so if you're with a woman who's been with 20 other guys, like, and, and you've only been with two girls, like, that can be very intimidating for you. But, but rather than admitting that that's intimidating you, I think a lot of these guys, it's just easier for them to blame the woman and call her a slut and denigrate her for it.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. And there's just an interesting fixation. I mean, being a man, there is something about a woman's sexuality where there's kind of a possessive quality that you desire over a woman's sexuality.

[Jessica]

And

[Interviewer / Host]

obviously, just because you maybe feel that urge doesn't mean you should act on it or doesn't mean that you're a misogynist. But there's some sort of kind of possessiveness that might be innate in men or rooted in our biology that kind of elevates this to be a more important statistic than it necessarily needs to be.

[Mark Manson]

Absolutely. So there is quite a bit of research that shows that men tend to be more sexually jealous and women tend to be more emotionally jealous. So, interestingly, if you go out and survey a bunch of men and you say, would you rather your wife sleeps with another man or falls in love with another man? They will mostly say, I would prefer if she fell in love with another man. Whereas women will say, I would rather my husband sleep with another woman than fall in love with another woman.

[Sponsor Voice]

Woman.

[Mark Manson]

And kind of the evolutionary explanation behind that is that as men, if you think about the majority of human history as men, there's paternity uncertainty. Right. So you're not the one with the baby gestating inside you. So no matter how loyal and faithful and predictable your partner's been, there's no guarantee that that's your child that she's carrying and that you're going to end up raising. And so it makes sense from an evolutionary point of view that men would be insecure about a woman's sexuality, about her faithfulness, about her loyalty and trustworthiness. Whereas as a woman, the insecurity is, is he going to stick around? Right. Like, as soon as his baby comes out, is he just going to ghost me for the next girl in the tribe over, or is he going to help me raise this thing? So, but to your point, we live in 2026. Even if, regardless of what sort of insecurities or jealousies we might have, that doesn't mean, you know, it's, it's. It's. It's called the naturalist fallacy. It's like just because we evolve this way doesn't mean we should behave this way. There's plenty of kind of behaviors or features of our psychology that we. That is quote, unquote natural, but it doesn't mean it's the right thing.

[Interviewer / Host]

Doesn't mean it's preferable based on, you know, maybe our moral codes that we, we sort of Share.

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[Interviewer / Host]

That actually makes me think of porn, because obviously that's a wildly different environmental variable than humans evolved with. I mean, sure there's. There's cave paintings of naked figures, but for the most part you couldn't access sexual release in such a immediate way as you can now. And so you had a prompt about porn and your claim was the damage it's done more damage to men than feminism. So I'm going to jump to that clip and we can go from there. And it wasn't all just men. This exchange was with Jessica.

[Jessica]

Porn use is selective. Not every man uses it, but every man is subjected to feminism in their society, is in their workplace, in their home. You can choose autonomously not to watch porn. You can't choose to end no fault divorce which is exposing children 70% more likelihood to being abused. Same with the women opening the welfare program for single mothers, which is increasing the crime rate, which is affecting all of society as a whole, not just men, singularly.

[Mark Manson]

If that were true, then you would expect to see male mental health decline in the most progressive countries in the world. Right there. There are countries that are even more feminist than we are, okay? Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, Australia, there are lots of them. You don't see the same decline and male mental health that you see here or in the uk.

[Jessica]

Are the populations the same in Germany and Sweden as they are in America.

[Mark Manson]

No, there's lots of differences, obviously. But my point is, is that if feminism was just by and large the problem for men's outcomes.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Then you would see a clear pattern across all of the most progressive countries of the world and you would not see men struggling in non feminist countries.

[Michael]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

So there are countries like China and Japan where men are struggling even more. They are here. That's an indicator that feminism is like not the root cause here.

[Jessica]

Okay, but it's. The argument is porn is doing more damage to men than feminism. Yes. You can choose as an autonomous adult male who's accountable for your own actions and behaviors, not to watch porn and engage in that activity. But you can't choose to avoid feminism in society.

[Will]

Correct.

[Mark Manson]

But it's, you know, if 11 year olds were getting access to cigarettes and alcohol every day, would you make the same argument that like, well, those 11 year olds, they can choose not to, well, indulge in cigarettes and alcohol, or would you tell the purveyors of the cigarettes and alcohol, get the hell out.

[Jessica]

No, I would probably tell the parents, your child isn't autonomous. They can't make their own decisions. They can't consent. So you as a parent need to be more controlling over your child and their behavior. So children making equation between adult male and children is not the same because they're not autonomous like adults are.

[Will]

And it's.

[Mark Manson]

Porn is predominantly harming young boys.

[Jessica]

Absolutely. Yeah. Which is why we should probably have age restriction and identification on it.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay, so there's agreement that porn could be causing damage, but Jessica's kind of saying that might be rooted in this cultural seed of feminism, which is like what we should really be concerned about. You agree porn is causing damage. That's your claim. But you're like, but wait a second. I don't think that has anything to do with feminism necessarily. Is that. Am I kind of seeing that distinction between you two correctly?

[Mark Manson]

My take on her was that she was just a very socially conservative person. And I do think that that is one interesting aspect of kind of the manosphere argument is that some, some people come from it from kind of just very conservative political or religious beliefs, whereas I think other, others come come to it from kind of insecurity, neuroticism. You know, maybe they've had a ex girlfriend that screwed them over or something. So she and I, I personally find the kind of the social conservatives, people like her harder to sway because it, at the end of the day, it does just seem to be kind of like a value Based belief system. But I, in her case, I, I felt like she, she was just conflating a lot of different social trends and

[Interviewer / Host]

there was a lot there. She threw out a lot of stuff.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, yeah. It's like you can't just blame all that stuff on women's liberation. Like, it's a lot of different stuff's going on at the same time. Yeah, I feel like most of the, the anti feminist arguments when I was going into this, you know, when I was prepping for this, like, those were kind of the arguments I was least worried about. Just because it's really not hard to just look at the data from a few other countries that are more feminist than we are and be like, oh, they're doing fine. So clearly this is not the problem.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, well, something that's interesting to me. So if we rewind just to the feminist revolution, or at least like the most popular wave of it, which was like the 60s and 70s, and I'm. Who knows how correct I am about that time frame. But you know, this like sort of hippie era, when maybe feminism hit the mainstream, there is this connotation that feminism was really tied to sex. Free sex, birth control. So the decision to have as much sex as you want, sex in the city, then it's kind of this like, you know, cultural staple of the, like early 2000s or the 90s. And so it had more of a provocative or connotation to it than I think maybe the like, core tenets of feminism necessarily stand for. And I mean, do you think kind of that that sexual charge that got tagged on to feminism was a disservice to maybe like the movement?

[Mark Manson]

I definitely think it was a complicating factor. My understanding is that I think around the 90s, feminists almost kind of split themselves into two camps, which they called the sex positive feminists. And then I don't think it was sex negative feminists. I forget what the other term was. But I do remember in the 90s and 2000s, like, there were a lot of feminists that were very explicitly, I'm a sex positive feminine feminist, which means, I believe I women should be able to have as much sex as freely and as often as they want. And I was also often pro pornography, pro sex work, so on and so forth. You know, it's funny because I was a little bit surprised how many guys in the circle or how many people in the circle agreed with me on the porn thing. I actually expected a little bit more pushback on the porn side. But as I recall, pretty Much. Everybody was like, yeah, porn's terrible and it is really messing everybody up. I, I think looking back, you know, if you look back to especially the 60s and 70s with free love and everything, just the proliferation of sexual behavior, it, there wasn't. You didn't have the Internet, you didn't have onlyfans, you didn't have free porn. Like, you know, eight year olds getting access to porn. It's, I think there was, maybe it was, it was different circumstances and maybe under those conditions, some of those beliefs held a little bit more weight. But I think in this day and age, you know, in 2026, it's probably something that we have to reevaluate or maybe kind of draw new, new boundaries or, or limitations around because. Yeah, it's just the, the proliferation and the extent that it has kind of infiltrated mainstream society. I don't think anybody really anticipated how far it's gone.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, yeah, there's so much, I mean, and it's paired with the attention economy. I mean, what's more attention grabbing than, you know, sex? Pedal to the metal. Sexual, sexually explicit content. I actually remember as like a kid, maybe I'm trying to think of how old I was. This is probably fifth grade, just not even knowing the word porn, like, not knowing what it meant, but hearing so much chatter about it culturally that I just typed like P O R N. And then it was just like, you know, like never the, Never the same again. But you're right, there is this unique thing about there's pressure from both sides. I think traditionally liberal people are kind of questioning what their comfort level is around, like what should be societally normal around sex or sexually charged imagery online and, and how accessible should it be? How, how common do we want onlyfans to be as a profession? But then, you know, on the conservative side, there really is this like really strong pushback to maybe even outlaw or criminalize porn altogether and kind of put it in the same category as IRL sex work. And so there's pressure on, on that issue coming from both sides. You know, what do you think is like the, the action that should be taken around porn? Like if you have to kind of carve out your nuance.

[Mark Manson]

It feels to me that it is. The industry has evolved and morphed so much in the last 10 years that it's almost like I feel like regulators should come at it from first principles all over again, because it just doesn't. The porn you and I grew up with is just not. Doesn't really, it's not that anymore. To your point though, about like kind of being hit from both sides, no pun intended, is, is, you know, this is a subject where I feel like the left and the right, like both have part of it right. And it, and I do think they, they miss what the other side gets right. And, and I personally come from this stuff purely from a psychological point of view and a point of view of just like what maximizes human flourishing and well being. But if you look at the research and the data, I mean it is children who grow up in stable 2 parent households with stable family structures are much healthier. They're more well adapted, they're more well adjusted. People who are in stable marriages, monogamous marriages, they, they are happier for longer periods of time, they tend to live longer. Like they're healthier. It's just across the board, all of the data around family, like having a consistent stable family structure is good. And so I think that's the right gets that correct. And I think the right is correct to very much push kind of family values into the cultural discourse and not let that go. On the other hand, if you look at pushing on people's sexual insecurities, demonizing sexuality, that's not healthy either. Like that doesn't really result in well functioning, stable people either. So it is like, I do think the left has a point that hey, this doesn't make you a bad person. Like if you, if you go through a phase in college or in your twenties where you sleep around and you're kind of a wild child, like that's okay, you can do that. Right. If you mess up every once in a while and cheated on your ex boyfriend, like it's, you're not a horrible person. Like we all make, we all have to kind of learn our own sexualities and learn our own relationship patterns. And so I think kind of the, the leniency or the forgiveness on the left for sexual behavior is also well placed. But the problem is those two things are very much in tension with one another. Right. Like you as a culture, it's hard to land the plane on both of those simultaneously.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think there's this guy, James Fischbach, I'm not sure how familiar you are with him. He's running, I think, for office. I don't. But he's been on the show, not in the center, but he's been in the circle. He's I think running for office in Florida. And he's proposing this thing called a syntax which is, I mean that's like as Christian nationalist as you could get. It's like, you know, we want to tax things, you know, behavior that we see as sinful. I mean, who decrees what is a sin? And not. Obviously, you need some sort of holy book to do that. So I think on its face, it's hard to, like, sell that, but I am surprised by how much of. There is a movement growing of really wanting to ridicule the existence of pornography entirely. And me being kind of a very more centrist, kind of natured person, I. My instinct is, like, there should probably be such thing as a healthy relationship with porn, the same way there is a healthy relationship with junk food or violent movies, you know, horror movies. You can get your rocks off in some degree, but you should have some awareness that it can roll into a destructive habit or instill negative things in your mind that maybe you don't want there to be. There's also addiction. I think addiction is kind of its own thing. But on the flip side, I agree with you. It's like how we got to a place where all. The only barrier that exists is a button that says, yes, I'm 18. And then you really have access to anything. Because, I mean, there. It's not like pornhub has, like, oh, this is like the common section. And then, oh, for like, the. The advanced section. You have to give us your id. It's like the whole library that we're going to monetize is all you got to do is click this one button, and there's no consequences if you lie. That's. That is insane. And then that's in all of our pockets all the time, you know? That's crazy. Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

I mean, look, I don't think prohibition on any of this stuff works. And as somebody who's traveled through countries that have supposedly banned porn and banned sex work, it's still there. Like, you can still find it. You still run into it. So it. Like, I don't think you can really put the toothpaste back in the. In the tube, but the syntax is maybe unfortunately worded, But I do think it makes sense. I mean, it's what we do with cigarettes and alcohol, right? And if you can just nudge people away from those behaviors. Also, I know this episode and everything is about men, and I know porn consumption disproportionately harms men, but there is something to be said. I mean, this is one of those things that I think manosphere guys are directionally correct, but they just blow it out of proportion and, like, mess up all the details which is that on the flip side, OnlyFans has made it so unbelievably easy for women to become porn creators. It's almost as easy as you just described to consume. Right. It's like that. You download an app, you hit a button, you fill out a couple forms, and, like, theoretically, you could start getting paid for illicit videos and images of your body. And. And Manosphere guys, there's an erroneous stat that they like to roll out. One of the guys in the circle rolled it out.

[Interviewer / Host]

Oh, I think I remember this.

[Mark Manson]

It's a. Yeah, it's a claim that I think It's. It's like 30% of women are. Have an only fans account, which is, like, completely miscalculated, but the number is. It's more like. I think it's 2 to 3% of women under 30 have an only fans account, which, when you think about that, that is actually also shockingly high. That is way higher than I would have guessed, and I think it's way higher than anybody I know would have guessed.

[Interviewer / Host]

So.

[Mark Manson]

It is. There's something to be said about that as well.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

It is fascinating because my gut says, like. Like, you. Prohibition, like, steering in that direction. And. Well, and this is the other thing is, like, so these conserv. Everybody's reacting to this reality that we've got incels. You know, we've got an unhealthy male. Mean disposition, whatever you want to call it, especially in the United States. But I have a hard time believing that eliminating porn or making it illegal is going to make men happier. I. I don't know if that's big. I'm not thinking that through. But it's like, okay, men are miserable. Now. You're gonna take away porn. Is that gonna actually make things better? I question if that makes sense, but I don't know. Maybe it might give men more free time.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

I mean,

[Will]

yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Or maybe get them out of the house and, like, talking to an actual female in front of them. And by the way, I. I found myself saying that to a number of those guys in the circle because they. This is the thing with a lot of manosphere guys is that, like, they'll get very theoretical on you. They'll start rolling out statistics and trends and, oh, did you know this? And this and this? And I'm like, yeah, but have you talked to a female recently? Because what you will discover is not every female you meet and talk to is, like, these statistics or, you know, headlines that you've read on. On various news sites. Like a very large part of this, I do think is related to the loneliness crisis and the social isolation that is. That is happening in our culture. Because it's, it's. If you are not actually getting out there and meeting a lot of women face to face, it's probably much easier to start believing all these things about them.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, and so the last thing I want to bring up, you know, with the last amount of time we have left, is so there's this new phenomenon now of look smacking. You know, so. So men are trying to position themselves as more valuable in society because I think there is just this shared acknowledgement that men have kind of dropped in status, whether that's through education or job performance, financial performance. There's this feeling of sort of not being enough. And so the reaction has been this phenomenon of looks maxing. So I'm going to pull up this clip with Will. Will's a very handsome man.

[Mark Manson]

Like was.

[Interviewer / Host]

He was especially handsome. But I think there's interesting this phenomenon of men being really aware of other men's attractiveness. It's sort of not where I thought things would have gone. But this is your exchange with, with Will and, and you invited him back to the center, and I'll read his claim. So his claim is women care more about looks than personality.

[Mark Manson]

I will concede that in this day and age, right. Where everything's driven through apps and Instagram and everything, like appearance is probably.

[Will]

It's amplified.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's.

[Mark Manson]

Yes. It's at the most premium that it's ever been.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

That said, I think once you get past that first date or that first impression, and especially once you get in the real world and you actually get it to like meeting women face to face at a party, at a friend's house, whatever the value of looks, proportionally, the personality comes down. And I think once you get in, you know, say a month into the relationship, it's almost not a factor anymore. It's almost all personality.

[Will]

I couldn't disagree more because I think a lot of the relationships I've seen of my peers that have made it, it's usually been, you know, they've been together for 10 plus years and both of them have. They've kind of let go of all of the facade and the, and the, like, the vain things you're describing, maybe they don't go to the gym every day like they used to, or they stop caring that much about eating healthy. And I think the ones that have made it, I'm saying the man and the woman have kind of both let go of these things aggressively. And they've kind of. They've descended is what.

[Mark Manson]

What they say.

[Joe Mari]

Okay.

[Will]

And so they're.

[Mark Manson]

They're thinking stomach line. Descended is what.

[Will]

Yeah. And I think maybe part of that is because they've both internally really committed. Like, this is the relationship I'm going to be in the rest of my life. Why would I do all this bs? Yeah. But I think that a lot of times it's not so simple like that you might only be four or five years into a relationship and you're like, this feels really good. But sometimes I'm not sure. And I think that if both partners, at the end of the day, they feel like, you know, this person I'm dating isn't just valuable to me, they could be valuable to other people as well. It discourages people from just kind of throwing things away or deciding that their life is better off in a different direction or whatever. Whatever it might be.

[Interviewer / Host]

What's your reaction? Just kind of. What will saying Two reactions.

[Mark Manson]

And I think I. He and I had a great conversation, by the way. Like, he was. He was one of the ones that. I feel like I could have talked to him for an hour straight. Looks matter like this. This is always the hard part of this conversation. Looks. Looks absolutely matter. They matter when meeting people. They matter when attracting people. They matter in. In relationships. They matter when sustaining relationships. Anybody who tells you otherwise, you know, is just wrong. But the problem. The problem is when people over index on looks and just assume that they are the only thing that matters or the thing that matters more than anything else. And so they're willing to sacrifice things like their values and their hobbies and their identity to maintain their looks. It's hard to communicate that because it's a. It is a subtle, nuanced thing. And the feeling I got talking to him honestly, it kind of made me sad because he will have to be in a relationship for a long, long time to realize that he was wrong. And ironically, as long as he believes that, that he believes his looks are more important than how he treats his partner or how he shows up in the relationship or how he communicates or, you know, what he has going on in his life, he's unlikely to have a relationship that goes that distance. And so it will just kind of reinforce his. His fixation on looks. So, yeah, it's. He was a really smart guy and we had a good conversation, but I came away from it like, kind of bummed out a little bit.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, well, there's so many Things here that I think are contradictory to my assumptions. And so the looks Maxine phenomenon in and of itself, to me it's more, it's more of a feminization of men because it's like men are entering the sexual marketplace now more as objects. And for a long time, you know, the argument was, oh, women are overly objectified and women's female beauty is really like the most important currency they have. I mean, my understanding was always that women do care about men's looks, but they really don't care about men's looks nearly as much as men care about women's looks. And that kind of, you know, goes into what you were saying, like the evolutionary aspect of it. Women are looking for stability, reliability, emotional availability in a partner. And sure they want to be attracted to him, but like the glue is maybe a little bit more of like soft skills. And so it's interesting to me that the reaction, men are in this low place and the reaction isn't an embracing of maybe like mental health or therapy or things like this. What we're embracing is bone smashing and injecting Botox into our face and looking, in my opinion, not that it looks bad, but actually a more feminine looking appearing kind of optimization of how we look. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it does seem sort of like the opposite direction of what if we were taking this from a science based approach? Like what I think women actually want the currency that they crave from it.

[Mark Manson]

Let me give you what I think their argument would be. And I don't even know if I, if I totally disagree with them. Like I sympathize with the looks.

[Interviewer / Host]

Mac.

[Mark Manson]

And I think I told him this when he sat down. I told him, I said, I sympathize with, with it a lot because I do think there are some principles that are correct. If I was a man, the sphere guy, and I just heard what you said, I think the way, or if he was here, I think what he would say is, is therapy going to get me another date on hinge? Like is dealing with my depression or whatever, is that going to find me a girlfriend next, next month? Right. Like it's, I think so much of the pain point these days is just meeting and connecting. It's that first, you know, say 10 hours with somebody that they're not even thinking beyond that really, because they're not getting beyond that in most cases. And so I feel like that's, that would be the, I'm guessing that would be kind of his response or maybe one of these guys responses. And I don't think he's necessarily wrong. The other thing. So I actually talked about this on one of my podcast episodes. So I have a little bit of a harebrained theory around looks maxing, which is that if you look at the economic data based on gender, basically under the age of 30, women are outperforming men drastically. Like actually the wage gap, the education gap, everything. Under 30 years old, men are lagging behind to a shocking degree. And so if you imagine you're a 23 year old guy and every girl you meet has a better job than you, went to a better school than you, is making more money than you, and women by and large want to date up, they don't want to date down. This, this is, there's plenty of data on this. And so you're a guy and you're like, well, every woman I'm dating is like doing better than I am. So like, what am I bringing to the table? How can I make myself stand out and be more desirable in the dating market? It makes sense that men start doing the thing that women did for centuries when they were on the lower end of the economic totem pole, right? Which is maximize their appearance and make themselves as physically desirable as possible. I'm not saying that's right or that we should support that. I'm. To me, there's a logic there that makes sense to me.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's an interesting way to put it.

[Mark Manson]

And again, I sympathize with guys like Will. Like, I see where they're coming from. It just makes me sad because I think what I think what a lot of these guys are going to realize once they're in their 30s and 40s is that looks were not nearly as important to their long term happiness and relationships as they thought they were.

[Interviewer / Host]

Right. Well, and, and probably the best answer is like moderation in all things. Like, yes, go to the gym. No, don't go to the gym every day. No, don't smash your bones. Yes, maybe shave and wear deodorant. Like it's. The unexciting answer is usually the right answer in a lot of these cases. One thing that's interesting is basically on your, based on your assessment, the future is going to be very hot. Both men and women are going to be doing everything they can to show those peacock feathers.

[Mark Manson]

Sorry, is that was, is that a question?

[Interviewer / Host]

No, no, it's just, it's, it's something I, my mind went there, but we are up on time and I just want to thank you for jumping into the arena. Scary thing to do, and thanks for doing this follow up, and hopefully this won't be the last time we cross paths.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, I appreciate it. It was a blast. And thanks to you and Jubilee for the. For the opportunity. I'm very happy with how it turned out.

[Interviewer / Host]

Great. And yeah, just on release day, engage, but don't engage too much. That's my only tip.

[Mark Manson]

Okay, that's good advice. Thank you.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. Every time is always the best. It's always the answer. Just give it time.

[Mark Manson]

Give it time.

[Joe Mari]

Okay,

[Interviewer / Host]

well, take care, Mark.

[Will]

Cool.

[Mark Manson]

See you, John. Thank you.

[Interviewer / Host]

If you want to see more follow up episodes of Surrounded, be sure to, like, leave us a positive review. Comment. If you're watching the video on YouTube, you can subscribe to Tubely, Jubilee's second channel. You can also subscribe to Jubilee to see full Surrounded episodes. But however you want to support us, just thank you so much for listening. Remember, you could be wrong, so could I. Keep your mind open until next time.