Why Cenk Uygur Thinks It’s All One Big Scam

Summary

Podcast Summary: Surrounded - "Why Cenk Uygur Thinks It’s All One Big Scam"

Introduction In the August 10, 2025 episode of Surrounded by Jubilee Media, host John Regalato engages in a deep and unfiltered conversation with Cenk Uygur, a prominent Turkish-American political commentator and co-founder of The Young Turks. The discussion centers around Uygur's critical views on both the Democratic and Republican parties in the United States, advocating for a left-wing populist movement aimed at dismantling the entrenched influence of corporate donors in politics.

Key Arguments

1. Crony Capitalism and Corporatism in Both Parties

   • Cenk Uygur argues that both Democrats and Republicans are primarily influenced by corporate donors, leading to a system of crony capitalism.
   • Quote (00:00): “Oh, criticizing a fellow Democrat... Unity for your frickin donors.”
   • Uygur emphasizes that Democratic leaders like Kamala Harris and Joe Biden prioritize corporate interests over genuine progressive policies, labeling them as "corporatists" rather than true capitalists or socialists.

2. Debunking Socialism and Communism Labels

   • Uygur contends that the Democratic Party does not genuinely support socialism or communism, despite some members like Bernie Sanders identifying as democratic socialists.
   • Quote (03:07): “None of the Democratic politicians are in favor of this [socialism].”
   • He clarifies that while socialism-related terms are often used inaccurately, true communism, which involves seizing the means of production, has negligible support within the party.

3. Defining Populism

   • Populism is defined by Uygur as serving the average American rather than the elite. He distinguishes this from the often negative connotations associated with populism in Europe.
   • Quote (11:20): “If you serve the average American, then you're a populist.”
   • Uygur advocates for a populist movement within the left to challenge both major parties' alignment with corporate donors.

4. Challenges in Passing Progressive Agendas

   • The conversation delves into the Democratic Party's failures to advance key progressive policies, such as the public option for healthcare and raising the minimum wage.
   • Quote (13:31): “They don't pass anything. They don't want any to get anything passed.”
   • Uygur criticizes Democratic leaders for not leveraging their political capital effectively and succumbing to donor pressures, thereby sabotaging progressive legislation.

5. Media Influence and Money in Politics

   • Uygur highlights the immense role of media and financial contributions in shaping political outcomes, asserting that mainstream media often acts as gatekeepers favoring corporate-friendly politicians.
   • Quote (44:06): “Why? It's because the media never, ever, ever reports it because they cover up for the corruption.”
   • He contrasts mainstream media with independent and online media, which he believes offer more diverse and truthful perspectives.

6. Internal Party Conflict and Unionization at The Young Turks

   • The episode touches upon internal conflicts within Uygur's organization regarding unionization, revealing tensions between management and staff over worker rights.
   • Quote (35:30): “There is a union now. But you could look it up to a bunch of liars.”
   • Uygur defends his stance against certain union practices, emphasizing transparency and fairness in workplace negotiations.

7. Critique of Joe Manchin and Corporate Democrats

   • A significant portion of the discussion is dedicated to Joe Manchin, a Democratic senator, whom Uygur labels as emblematic of the party's corporate ties and ineffective representation.
   • Quote (40:16): “He's one of the cancers... he literally owns a coal company.”
   • Uygur accuses Manchin and similar politicians of prioritizing corporate interests over those of their constituents, undermining progressive initiatives.

8. Strategizing for a Progressive Populist Movement

   • Uygur outlines strategies for fostering a genuine populist movement within the Democratic Party, emphasizing the need to prioritize class-based policies over identity politics to build broader unity.
   • Quote (32:51): “Raising the minimum wage would move $92 billion from the corporate class to the average American.”
   • He advocates for focusing on economic reforms that directly benefit the majority, thereby strengthening the party's grassroots support.

DEI and Affirmative Action Debate

• In a heated exchange with a guest named Xena, Uygur critiques DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) and affirmative action policies, arguing that they inadvertently perpetuate racial divisions rather than fostering genuine equality.
  • Quote (23:17): “Should we give a little bit of extra weight to Muslim candidates? I would say absolutely not.”
  • Xena counters by asserting that policies like affirmative action are essential for addressing systemic racism, leading to a nuanced debate on the effectiveness and repercussions of such initiatives.
  • Quote (24:25): “What you're doing is you're not noticing the giant downside... people start to view each other as black, white.”
  • Uygur maintains that while intentions may be noble, the outcome fosters division, advocating instead for class-based solutions to economic disparities.

Media and Audience Capture

• Uygur discusses the influence of audience capture, particularly in alternative media, where content creators may prioritize sensationalism to attract viewership, potentially distorting political discourse.
  • Quote (51:32): “So audience capture is an enormous phenomenon.”
  • He contrasts his approach with figures like Joe Rogan, who, despite their influence, maintain a level of authenticity by not succumbing entirely to audience pressures.
  • Uygur shares personal experiences of losing audience members by adhering to principled stances, underscoring the challenges of maintaining integrity in the face of audience expectations.

Conclusion and Call to Action

• The episode concludes with Uygur emphasizing the necessity of building a unified, honest, and strong progressive movement to counteract the dominant influence of corporate donors and mainstream media.
  • Quote (65:00): “So let's go find that person and hopefully they'll be on Jubilee.”
  • Uygur calls for proactive efforts to support honest candidates and push for policies that genuinely benefit the average American, rather than pandering to elite interests.

Final Thoughts

Cenk Uygur's appearance on Surrounded presents a scathing critique of the existing political landscape, highlighting the entrenched issues of corporate influence, ineffective progressive policies, and the pervasive role of media in shaping political narratives. His advocacy for a robust populist movement within the left underscores the necessity for systemic change to truly represent and serve the interests of the average American.

Transcript

[Cenk Uygur]

Oh, criticizing a fellow Democrat. Oh my God. That would be. That would break unity, beloved uni. Unity for what? You guys don't pass anything. Unity for your frickin donors.

[John Regalato]

From Jubilee Media, this is the Surrounded podcast. I'm John Regalato and today I'll be talking to Cenk Uygur. He's a Turkish American political commentator and co founder of the Young Turks. And last week he was at the center of Surrounded, debating both Republicans and Democrats, specifically urging Democrats to embrace populism as a way to achieve political power. We'll be reacting to some highlights from his episode and breaking down some of the arguments that he was hearing as well as he was trying to make. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Jank.

[Unknown Host]

Well, Cenk, welcome to the Surrounded follow up and thank you so much for being on the show. It was, it was awesome to see you in the mix.

[Cenk Uygur]

Thank you, brother. Appreciate. Appreciate it.

[Unknown Host]

So I guess first things first, I just kind of want to get a sense of how. What you expected going into your episode of Surrounded and if your expectations were challenged or, you know, how you felt about it coming out.

[Cenk Uygur]

Well, a couple of things happened that I didn't fully expect. The questions were a little bit more aggressive and harsher than I expected, but I think that's on me, not on them, that I should have expected that more. But that's okay. I mean, I deal with that every single day, so it's not like it was new to me.

[Unknown Host]

No, totally. I. I appreciate, you know, hearing your perspective. And yeah, we're going to dig into that clip because I thought that was interesting. Obviously it's not as close to kind of the focus, which was you were kind of coming in as a populist and talking to both sides of the aisle, being like, hey, you know, from my perspective, both parties are kind of playing us and I think we need a populist movement, A populist movement on the left. So that'll be kind of the meat of our discussion. I actually think I'm really interested in kind of peeling more back about what you think there. But yeah, the way we do this show is I've pulled a bunch of clips from your episode of Surrounded and I'm going to play them for you and then we'll react to them. And I just want kind of your unfiltered perspective. You ready to react to the first one?

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, sure.

[Unknown Host]

In the episode, your first claim is Democrats and Republicans agree on economic issues and trying to divide us on culture war issues. And so this first clip is in the context of that. And this clip is going to be with Beau.

[Beau]

I agree with your overall term here. I would say that at the end goal, they agree that the economically we all want the same things. Right? But the way we get it is two completely different economical viewpoints. We have the left that tends to be more socialist and communist, and we have the right that is more crony capitalist.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay?

[Beau]

The left wants to take your taxes and they would distribute it the way they want. The right wants you to keep your taxes right now. They want you to keep your overtime taxes. They want you to keep your taxes on tip. So what is. What is your.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, so first of all, brother, you got to stop saying socialism, communism. None of the Democrats.

[Beau]

Why is that?

[Cenk Uygur]

Because none of the Democratic politicians are in favor of this. They're actually.

[Beau]

They are. Bernie. Bernie's quite literally.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, no, no. So he says he's a democratic socialist, even he doesn't really go towards what you would consider socialism because you're putting socialism and communism in the same bucket where they don't belong. None of them are in favor of ending corporations, ending capital, etc. In fact, Kamala Harris and Joe Biden, their number one problem is that they're corporatists, not that they're socialists or communists. No, they quite literally want. They will do whatever corporate donors tell them to do.

[Beau]

They want to end businesses over vaccine mandates.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. No, brother.

[Beau]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

No, no, but that's drug companies that. They're doing the exact opposite of communism. They're saying, corporate donors, we will do whatever you corporations want. So when you turn to the Republicans, it's the same thing as Oliver. They have a 5 to 10% release valve with Donald Trump. Now he's pretending to be a populist. So he goes, oh, my God, Donald Trump isn't pretending.

[Beau]

He is a populist.

[Cenk Uygur]

Well, he just won the popular vote.

[Beau]

Both left and right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Hold on.

[Unknown Host]

All right, so there's a lot going on there. The first part I kind of want to hear you comment on, Cenk, is why were you pushing him away from, you know, the label of communism and socialism?

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, look, I had that reaction of like bursting out laughing almost when he says socialism, communism. And I realized now, looking back on it, I shouldn't do that because a lot of people on the right have been told that the Democrats are communist and. And it's such a laughable thought, but they don't know that. They genuinely think, oh, Karl Marx is going to take over, et cetera. No, no, no, no. No, the problem is, as I was explaining there, both Democrats and Republicans take donor money, and most of the donors are corporations. So they do crony capitalism. And he was right about that when he said crony capitalism. They do what I call corporatism.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But corporatism is the very opposite of communism. Like, if there's a political spectrum, like. So they're totally misunderstanding the problem. They're right that there is a problem, but they're misdiagnosing it massively. Like, there's the. And there's two different wings of the party. So the. The corporate wing is the Kamala Harris, Joe Biden, Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, and those guys. They despise communism with every fiber of their being.

[Unknown Guest]

They're.

[Cenk Uygur]

But they're not even capitalists. They're corporatists. So I. I have tremendous disdain for that side.

[Unknown Guest]

Right, right.

[Unknown Host]

Well, one question I have on that, because I think that makes a lot of sense. And when I was kind of reflecting on what you and Beau were disagreeing on, you know, well, there was like that AI meme of Kamala where they made her look like a communist at a communist rally at the last campaign. So there's definitely a characterization of the left as commie, you know, like commies. But I guess I wonder, because I do hear this from people on the left, not politicians necessarily, but cultural figures and obviously voters. Do you think there's an appetite for a more socialist, communist system among voters on the left?

[Cenk Uygur]

I think appetite for communism is near zero. I know there's some young people online that think that they understand things and they're like, oh, yeah, we're gonna run things. Okay. Anyway, so that's a tiny, tiny amount of people. And they'll now be furious at me.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But. And by the way, there's some old school legit communists and Marxists who are good people. They have a different way of thinking about how to run the economy. And that's a perfectly fine debate. But in terms of practicality, it's. It's not on the map.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Socialism, on the other hand, is on the map. So then when you get to socialism, then the question is, what in the world is anybody talking about? Everybody use the word socialist. It means completely different things to different people. So some people, when they say socialist, they mean Norway.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

They just mean like a normal northern European country or an Asian country that has a better social safety net, that has universal health care, paid family leave. If you mean that, yes, Then the Bernie wing is that right?

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Some people use socialism to mean Communism. We're going to seize all of the private industry and we're going to, you know, the government's going to be making sneakers soon.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

No, that almost no one means that. Although, to be fair, since I did that debate, Mandani won and they found an old tape of him saying, seizing the means of production. And I was like, whoa, okay, right. And I'm like, hey, that's the first time I've seen that in my lifetime as a Democrat.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

A Democrat saying seizing the means of production. And look, I like Mamdani because he's for change. His particular policies I don't quite agree with, but I want to see if he can do them and I want to see what the result is. And I respect the voters of New York who are going in that direction. But to me, seizing the means of production is a not so, like, policy wise and be politically utterly impossible. So. Right. So it's not worth discussing. It's. It's kind of a boogeyman that the right throws out there to get you thinking about Castro and style like that.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

And that was, and we're definitely going to talk about that because that was, I think, the heartbeat of this episode. And the argument you kept coming back to was I feel like both parties are on the same team, which is this corporatism. They are paid, you know, they are paid to vote in alignment with their, their donors and the donor class. And that is kind of the shadowy force that controls American politics. One thing I wanted to build on, on your discussion with Bo, though, was at the end, he says, wait, Trump is a populist? And you kind of, you go, no, no, no, no. What do you think Trump ran as a populist and then kind of changed course? Or do you not think see him as a populist?

[Cenk Uygur]

No, no, he definitely ran as a populist. But I never believed him. And I was right. I didn't believe him the first time, I didn't believe him the second or the third time, and I was right every time. So, like, and now the right wing is beginning to see, oh, right. Turns out he's one of the elites. He's protecting the elites.

[Unknown Guest]

He.

[Cenk Uygur]

He's in the establishment and almost everything he's done there. But I think that the Epstein iceberg that Trump ran in, like, you know, how the Democrats realized their leaders were lying to them when they realized Joe Biden was not young and dynamic and not the best Democrat to run against Trump.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

The Republicans or the MAGA voters, etcetera, are beginning to now see, oh, now we're lifting the curtain back on the Republican Party, including Trump. And, oh, it turns out the wizard of Oz is full of crap on both sides. And so. And which is exactly what I was saying throughout the episode.

[Unknown Guest]

Right, right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But it's not just Epstein files. It's not just that he bombed Iran. The core of it is, does he look out for the donor class or does he look out for the average guy? So when Beau was talking about taxes and tips. So those provisions in the budget bill are temporary and they're a tiny percentage of the bill. The tax cuts for the corporations, the loopholes that they put in, and the tax cuts for the richest people are permanent and they are the lion's share of the bill. So last time around, he added 2 trillion to the debt on tax cuts for the rich and corporations. This time, this bill adds 3.3 trillion to the debt, mainly to give tax cuts for corporations and to the wealthy. So they throw you a couple of crumbs. So here's, oh, we're going to take away tax on tips and overtime for a couple of years. Come this way, come this way. Haha. We're populous. And then when they get into office, they're like, no, I'm hiding the Epstein files, I'm attacking Iran, I'm adding 3 trillion to the dead, and all of it's going to corporations and the rich.

[Unknown Host]

Something that might be good just since we're kind of at the top of the episode is, you know, what do, what is populism? How would you define populism?

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, so again, good question, because there's like socialism, populism means a lot of things to a lot of different people.

[Unknown Guest]

Right? Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

And so in Europe, when I talk about populism, I went to the World Forum there, I went to debate at Oxford, in Cambridge. And when I say the word populism there, the hair on the back of their neck rises.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

And they're like, whoa, this guy's scary.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Because to them, populism means extreme. And so they had very bad experiences with populism gone awry.

[Unknown Guest]

Right, Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But in America, there's a much more benign and simple meaning to populism, which is, do you serve the average guy or don't you?

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

If you serve the average American, then you're a populist. If you serve the donor class and you serve corporate rule, then you're the establishment, you're the elites. And, and by the way, it breaks down almost exactly like that. And at least 90 to 98% of Washington is the establishment. That's why they're despised and they should be despised. There's very few genuine populists. Bernie's the most obvious.

[Unknown Host]

Well, thank you. I do think that gives us like a good framing for where you're coming from. I'm going to pull up our second clip. And so this next clip is you talking to Adam and you guys kind of dig into. This is still your first claim. You guys dig into, I believe the public option and how it didn't get Obama didn't get it done. And you, you make like a pretty big claim at the end. I want to dig into. So here's your debate with Adam.

[Cenk Uygur]

I don't think the Democrats want the public option at all.

[Beau]

When 59 senators said we'll vote yes on this and Lieberman, that's what I'm.

[Cenk Uygur]

Trying to tell you, brother. They don't mean it. So let me give you two examples.

[Beau]

Where are you getting that from?

[Cenk Uygur]

Where am I getting it from?

[Beau]

Lieberman.

[Cenk Uygur]

Could we not have gone the public option polls at over 70%? They didn't even try to pass it. Number two, when Biden came into office, said he was going to do option.

[Beau]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

And then he lied and he never.

[Beau]

Once introduced like no political capital compared to Obama.

[Cenk Uygur]

Oh, now they don't have political capital. Golly.

[Beau]

The reality of how you pass.

[Cenk Uygur]

Oh my God. I can, I can, I can. The voters.

[Beau]

It's not, I can't.

[Cenk Uygur]

Sick of I can.

[Beau]

It's not.

[Cenk Uygur]

Why don't you actually try?

[Beau]

It's more.

[Cenk Uygur]

So tell me why they're such losers they can't pass paid family leave at 84%. Are they losers or do they actually secretly agree with the Republicans and they don't want any of this because they're corporate donors.

[Beau]

I agree with you on policy. I want paid family leave. I want single payer health care. But, but this is not like super easy to pat. You're like, if they just all hold.

[Cenk Uygur]

Their hand and say I can get a bias in two weeks we're going.

[Beau]

To get like two weeks.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. I just want to hear kind of your reaction to the clip.

[Cenk Uygur]

He's a, seems like a really good guy. I liked him and we do policy, but he's, he's watched too much television. He's too young to watch that much television. You can tell when someone's getting their news from television and mainstream media because they believe fairy tales. Oh my Democrats, they're, oh, golly gifty. Just had one more vote. Three more votes, eight more Votes, Half a vote. Oh, they're so close. Every time under Biden, they're like, okay, let's, let's pass, you know, minimum wage. Raising the minimum wage. You said it was one of the easiest and top priorities, right? And then we force a vote on it in the Senate. They didn't even, they took it out of the bill. They didn't even want to vote on it. I said, what happened? I thought he said it was a priority. They're liars. They're liars. MSNBC gets you to believe they're angels. No, they're the opposite. They're liars. So then he takes it out of the bill, Bernie forces him to get to vote on it. And look at that. Eight Democratic senators vote no.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay?

[Cenk Uygur]

So whenever the Democrats need a no vote, they always get a no vote. And so like when Obama, oh, Jesus Christ. He doesn't have the 50, 51 senators or 52 senators that Biden had at different times. He had 59. At one point he had 60 senators. Filibuster proof. They go, oh, golly gee. Oh, we did. Oh, we still don't have enough senators. Oh, we were one short. Oh, oh, shucks. We'll get it next time when we have 89 senators, okay? No, they're liars. If they had 89 senators, magically, 39 of them would vote no.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

So it's. Proof is in the pudding. And the advantage I have that others don't have is that I've been covering this for quarter of a decade on young Turks alone, right? So let alone covering politics for over 30 years. And I have seen the Democrats run this play a hundred times.

[Unknown Host]

This, this two week formula, you know, like getting it done in two weeks. I just want to kind of relay that back to you, make sure I'm understanding it right. Because I do think this is really interesting, is like, what's the playbook for getting shit done? Which like you say in the episode, I don't think it's very popular to criticize Democrats. It's not a new thing to say that they can't get anything done. But like, what is the recipe for getting things done? You're saying the bully pulpit, a populist leader who's very popular and can use their influence, their platform, to direct the ire of the public that supports an issue by a large majority to, you know, to force fear into Congress. Like, hey, you're going to get primaried if you don't vote yes on this. You're going to look like you protect child you know, abusers, if you don't vote yes on this. That's the formula.

[Cenk Uygur]

And guys. And by the way, John, like anyone who knows politics, thinks that's actually elementary. It's carrots and sticks. That's the hardball version of it. But we have been brainwashed by mainstream media about civility.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

So criticizing a fellow Democrat. Oh, my God, that would be. That would break. Unity, beloved uni. Unity for what? You guys don't pass anything. Unity for your fricking donors. F your donors. F your donors. I don't want unity for them. I want unity for us. And if you're not willing to actually be tough on Democrats and Republicans, then of course you're not going to get anything passed. You don't want any to get anything passed. Who goes into a negotiation, political business or otherwise, and goes, I only have carrots. I have no sticks. What would you like then? What are you going to lose then?

[Unknown Host]

You know, you mentioned Trump is a master at this tactic, and I agree with you. But I do see him as kind of like a once in a generation kind of. Well, I just.

[Cenk Uygur]

People always say that. Why is it a generation? I'll tell you why it's not, but go ahead.

[Unknown Host]

Well, but what I think is who has more ownership of their base and their audience? Like, you know, people who vote for Trump aren't just voting for Trump, they're Trump fans. You know, it's a fandom. And so he could move their attention. I feel like, very effectively. His words, you know, really do push their attention. And I'm trying to think of who on the left, um, you know, Bernie is the closest person I can think to. Of in recent history. Who else on the. On the left side of the spectrum has that kind of influence?

[Cenk Uygur]

So, John, that's exactly the person I'm looking for.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay?

[Cenk Uygur]

And so Bernie has that kind of influence. The problem with Bernie is, God love him, he's. He's too soft. I mean, I. It takes so much effort to get him to mildly criticize a fellow Democrat on one issue. Oh, my God, Bernie. Jesus Christ. Go. Go already. You're going 5 miles per hour. We're not going to get there, Right? So. So we need somebody in the car who is strong. Never, ever, ever will Gavin Newsom or Pete Buttigieg change anything. Or Kamala Harris or any of those corporate guys.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

So now then, the question is, okay, who could it be that. But, John, to me, that's. Yes, that's a super important question. And I'm on a three year Quest here, two, two to three year quest to find the right person to back.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Cenk Uygur]

So we've got, you know, but we have possibilities. We have Ro Khanna who's super honest, super strategic, and I think strong now.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

So, okay, that's, that's an interesting possibility. I, I propose Jon Stewart from time to time. Charlemagne. The God agrees with me. Andrew Schultz thought it was interesting. And why? Because John is so smart, honest, and he got a bill pass from outside of Congress. So that shows me strength.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

That shows me a person who cares. Are there more people like him? Yes. So let's go find that person. And is it, is it doable? Well, you can't say a guy like Trump did it and he's, I mean, I, I don't think he's anywhere near 100 IQ.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Like, oh, yeah, a guy like Trump can do it. Why can't a Democrat do? Why all of a sudden a Democrat would melt? My God, I don't know how to do sticks.

[Unknown Host]

I don't want to speculate on Trump's iq, but to me, it's just, I feel like it's so obvious. It's like time and time again he seemed, it seemed like it was over for him. And then he pulls it back together. And so that's why when I say kind of once in a generation, whether you support him or not, his lasting power is just pretty remarkable from my perspective.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. So two things about that, and that particular phenomenon is all about strength.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So, like, I'll use a media example, not a political example, Us.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

I've been canceled like a dozen times. I've been canceled by the right, by the left, by mainstream media, by the establishment. I've been canceled by everyone. And, and it's not like a light thing. When they go to cancel you, they say terrible things. And how do you get past that? You have to be strong. You have to say, no, no, no, no. I'm going to say the truth no matter what. And I don't care if you lie about me. I don't care how you smear me. I don't care if you do a character assassination. I'm gonna come for you time and time again. But if I said this and did this on MSNBC for the last 20 years, they would have been like, what a terrible, mean populist. He's destroyed unity. Everybody run for Hillary. Run under Hillary's skirt. Please don't, don't let him do this. No, you gotta be able to use sticks and you got to be strong. And you got to get past all of that. So that's our job to find that guy. But John, the reason why this dynamic is completely different and it will not be once in a lifetime and once in a generation anymore is because in the old days, mainstream media had a death lock on media. So. So, because then it became once in a lifetime. Why? Because you have to somehow get past the gates. The gatekeepers are the most corporate of all. The CNNs and the new York Times are all multi billion dollar corporations and they're. And so those guys are the gatekeepers that make it so difficult. But now that they have lost power and online media has power, it makes it much easier to get past the gates.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. And you, you have a specific claim about the media. So I wanna dig into this a little bit later, but let's move on to our next clip. So your next claim was Republicans only care about the rich. But your third claim was Democrats don't wanna pass their agenda. It's a marketing ploy, not a mission. And the topic of DEI and affirmative action and kind of race identity issues came up and you had an interesting disagreement with Xena. Her name's Xena. And so I'm gonna pull up your clip with her.

[Cenk Uygur]

DEI and affirmative action had their role, had their place. And oftentimes I'm saying that they have a role now. So. But what it also does at the same time though, it serves to divide us. And so look, if you say to me, hey, maybe Muslims have a disadvantage even if you take class into account. So should we give a little bit of extra weight to Muslim candidates? I would say absolutely not.

[Xena]

Why not?

[Cenk Uygur]

Do not do that.

[Xena]

Because.

[Cenk Uygur]

Because then what it does is it makes everyone bitter about the Muslim candidates the problem. And it makes them seem like they did earlier. Here's what I find super important, in fact, they did earlier.

[Xena]

What you're explaining is the response to the policy. And you're not actually digging at the policy in of itself. You're saying because people will come out and be, you know, racist or Islamophobic or whatever it might be because of a policy that is ensuring equality of opportunity, we should cancel the policy. But that is not a critique of the policy. That's a critique of the Republican or usually conservative response to said policy. So do you have a problem with the policy or the response?

[Cenk Uygur]

So my point here is that this is among the different things that the Democrats do where they say, hey, I think they're being performative. They say, oh, we're in favor.

[Xena]

They might be Performative, but the outcome. But what it actually.

[Cenk Uygur]

The thing that would help African American community, Latino community, Muslim community, all those communities is actually raising the minimum wage crisis. But we never do the material help. We never do the things that equal things out economically.

[Xena]

You still haven't critiqued the policy in of itself. You're saying people will get angry if we come out and we promote these different metrics.

[Cenk Uygur]

No, I am critiquing the policy.

[Xena]

So what exactly about the policies?

[Cenk Uygur]

Because it divides us.

[Xena]

How does the policy divide?

[Cenk Uygur]

Even though it has.

[Xena]

By saying that racism exists.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. So, but racism. No, no, no. Not by saying that racism exists. So you have to acknowledge reality.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

What you're saying is now we're going to put black people in this category, we're going to put white people in.

[Xena]

This category, because there are categories that, okay, that exists now at a subconscious level that we characterize.

[Cenk Uygur]

Even if you get a benefit from that, you say, hey, you know, I reduced racism by 10%, 20%, et cetera. What you're doing is you're not noticing the giant downside of that, which is then people start to view each other as black, white.

[Xena]

We've always done that. That's happening unconsciously all the time.

[Cenk Uygur]

You're right. But what I would love for us to stop doing that.

[Xena]

All of our psychology, stop looking at.

[Cenk Uygur]

Me as a Muslim and you as a black person. I want them to look at you as an American and me as an American.

[Xena]

If you want less racism and less racial categorizing or just us to see that as less of an initial categorization, Studies show that we need to attack racism and race as a concept like head on.

[Unknown Host]

So has your opinion on, you know, the progressive focus on race and issues around race changed over, you know, the last 10 years as it's been in the forefront of politics so much?

[Cenk Uygur]

No, I've actually always been against racial politics. I was against affirmative action. But it lets the Republicans off the hook too much to just frame it that way. Republicans started identity politics. Now they like, if you're a Republican or you're right wing, you. Your head will explode at that. And you're like, no way. No way. It's there. The only ones doing the culture wars now, guys, this. I wrote about this in my book justice is Coming. So what's the Southern Strategy? The Southern Strategy, if you don't know, it was when LBJ passed Civil Rights act and Voting Rights act, the Republicans, Nixon, Pat Buchanan came up with a strategy of picking up, sorry, but literally the racist voters in the south that hated integration, they wanted segregation and they didn't want to miss mix with black people. So now the Democrats used to win their votes, they were the Dixiecrats. And the Republicans said, no, we're now the racist party. And so the, they won over a lot of the Southern votes. Now is everybody in the south races today? No, no. But they started that strategy in the 1960s. Did it work for a long time? Yes. In fact, I interviewed Pat Buchanan on MSNBC back when I was a host and he was a contributor and he said we had a good 40 year run. So he knows what he did, they know what they did. They started identity politics, they started this racial crap. Okay. So now of course, their racism existed before that, and categorizing based on race, obviously all of that existed before that, but they, in the modern era, they took political advantage of it. So then the Democratic reaction was, okay, great, we agree, let's categorize based on race, but we think our side should have the advantage because we're making up for historic discrimination. Okay, now there's logic to that because if you're got a great job as a longshoreman, you, you want to pass it on to your son, but if you all pass it on to your son, then only white people are going to have that job.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

So, okay, I get it. We have to do affirmative action in the beginning, 1960s, 70s and maybe even the 80s.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

So to start to introduce other people into those attractive jobs so that that long form, long term discrimination cycle is broken. Right, but if you keep categorizing people based on race, then we're always going to look at each other based on racial and religious categorizations. And that does not help defeat racism, unfortunately, it is my belief that it perpetuates racism. I mean, I had Scott Adams on the show.

[Unknown Host]

Yes, well, just, I'm sorry, just with this recent pushback on DEI that the Trump administration has been spearheading this the second time around. So have you, you've been in support of that. You know, let's get DEI out of universities, out of the workplace. Why? Why not?

[Cenk Uygur]

No, I'm not in support of either extremes. So did Di slip into extremes from time to time? Yes.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So if you said to me, look, here's a program where they're disadvantaging white people in any way, I'd say, no, don't do it. That's crazy. Okay, so if you say, hey, here's a program that gives opportunities, that doesn't mean that they get the job over the white person because they're black or they're Asian or whatever they are.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But like, you go to a poor community and maybe their Vietnamese community in Northern California, but they're poor.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

And so. And you give them an opportunity to apply for an internship. Okay. That doesn't mean they're getting the job over a white person. That's just giving them opportunity. I love it.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

So that I'm in favor of.

[Unknown Guest]

So.

[Cenk Uygur]

But when the DI goes extreme and it starts discriminating against white people, I hate it. Okay, so now the. But what's Trump doing? Trump is coming in and like, as usual, bull in a china shop. Oh, let's take out historic African Americans in the military. Let's stop celebrating them.

[Unknown Guest]

Why?

[Cenk Uygur]

That's not dei. They were legendary soldiers. We were celebrating them for what they did in service of this country. How is that a bad thing when they go to protect names of Confederate generals and the statues of Confederate generals who lynched black people? No, you're doing identity politics. You're saying, I don't care that he lynched Americans. Yes, they were African Americans, but they were Americans. I don't care. I just want my identity in the south to be protected. And he was a Southern white man, and I want his statue. I wanted the military bases named after him. No, brother, that's. No, you got to let that go, man. We. We can't keep celebrating the races of the past. And we can't. And to the left, I say, we can't keep categorizing everybody based on race and religion. When is it ever going to end? When is it ever going to end? At some point, it has to end, otherwise we're not a united country.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. And so when she says. When Xena says, you know, you're criticizing. Based on the. The reaction to it, not the policy itself, you actually don't agree with those policies, you know, straight out. Is that correct?

[Cenk Uygur]

Well, again, it's the devil's in the details. It depends on policy. But overall, I think that there's other. Another thing that I would, you know, disagree with her on, which is. And by the way, she did a great job because she represents a significant percentage of the left. And so I'm glad that she. In favor of them. And that voice needed to be heard.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But my disagreement is that the policy is the ramifications. Like, the ramifications are part of the policy. You can't say, oh, I pass a tax cut for the rich. And I. But. And I think that I like that policy. Oh, the ramification is it adds to the deficit. Well, of course, the ramification is the policy.

[Unknown Guest]

Right, right.

[Cenk Uygur]

When we divide based on race, that is the policy. So I know why you're doing it because of historic discrimination. You're not wrong about historic discrimination. But I think you have the wrong remedy at the wrong time right now. And that is part of the policy discussion.

[Unknown Host]

But I guess moving forward, do you think it's better for Democrats to just advocate based on class? And in a certain sense they would achieve exactly what they're trying to achieve in terms of racial equity through just filtering, you know, based on class.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. So there's two things there. First of all, again, we go back to. And whenever I say Democrats or Republicans, I mean that they're politicians, not their voters.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

So Democratic are totally full of crap, even on the racial issues, on the social issues, the cultural issues. So the Voting Rights act, they didn't pass it. They said it was their number one priority and they made it HR1. And then when the Republicans said no, they're like, oh, okay, great, no problem. They didn't fight at all. They didn't fight 1%. So they're full of crap on everything to begin with. Then when you turn to, okay, yes, but what would actually help minority communities more?

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Well, it's clearly the economic stuff. I mean, would you rather have a Democrat pat you on the head, go, I love your race, or get you a $12,000 raise by increasing the minimum wage? Yeah, I don't know anyone who would take the pat on the head rather than $12,000.

[Unknown Guest]

Right, right.

[Cenk Uygur]

That materially impacts your life. Raising the minimum wage would move $92 billion from the corporate class to the average American.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Cenk Uygur]

That impacts people's lives. And once you do that, by the way, and you help lower drug prices, lower housing prices so they could bring their family to a beautiful middle class neighborhood and afford that house and afford the drugs and have a good solid wage and live basically the American dream. Then they buy into. And you buy. Get the credibility to then make other proposals to them and say, hey, remember how we delivered for you on wages and prices and all that. Now we're asking you to understand what we're saying about the Voting Rights act, that we just want everyone to be able to vote without the gerrymandering, without the rigging, etc. And then they'll hear you out instead of you coming in and going, your race is bad. Our race has been discriminated against. Our race now wants these. Then it Feels like, oh, okay, it's a zero sum game and you're having to take from me to give to you, well, then that's gonna make us fight and then we're never gonna be united, but we can be united on class. So the example I was gonna give real quick, Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert, right, who's now a very right wing Trump supporter. I had him on this show because I care about understanding and learning. I listen to the other side, right? And I was so. Not that I agree with his racial views at all, etc. But when I talked to him, I found out the genesis of it. It turns out two different times, right or wrong, whether it was true or not, managers told him that he was passed up for a promotion because he was a white male. And that made him so bitter, in my opinion, about that, that it, it sent him on a right wing crusade over the long course of his life.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

And when you actually talk to him about the issues, I don't know how right wing any of these folks are and what right wing and left wing even means because there's so much propaganda out there. But once you get someone dug in on October, I'm against who you are, your identity. They're never going to vote with you. And so. And you're never going to unite. And it's a terrible strategy.

[Unknown Host]

All right, I want to pull up this next clip is with Nick and you guys talk about unions. So this is the personal attack that you mentioned at the top. He kind of took an unexpected pivot to pointing out a situation where employees at the Young Turks were attempting to unionize. So here we go.

[Cenk Uygur]

You rejected a union at your company.

[Unknown Host]

And fired somebody for organizing.

[Cenk Uygur]

That is absolutely not true. You could say that if you like. It's true. Look it up. There's a union now. But you could look it up to a bunch of liars. But this is a random thing that you're throwing in there, I guess, to just personally attack me. But there is a union. I'll tell you what. You want to explain facts. So facts are, yes, IC is at Young Turks. It's been at Young Turks for over five years.

[Beau]

Did you or did you not reject a card check?

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, I did. And so, in fact, card check, yes, that is the one thing I disagree with in the pro act. And yes, you are allowed to disagree with one part of the bill or 5% of a bill.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

And so in, in our case. So we can compromise and have more personal dealings at Young Turks. Okay, fine. We can Do.

[Unknown Host]

It's not personal.

[Cenk Uygur]

It's a public thing. No, no. Okay, no problem. Okay, but let me address it. Now, you got into a weirdo thing that. Not about policy, not about the Democrats, but about my company. Fine. So since you smeared me, let's explain.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. So how did you feel when that. That came up? Because it was kind of unexpected.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. It had nothing to do with the topic. That. That's why I said it's an ambush. So there's a bunch of these weirdos that keep lying about the union situation at tyt. And then they say, look it up. And when you look it up, it's just other weirdos like them that made up garbage that isn't true. There's no actual facts around it. So what actually happened? So I'm running for Congress in 2020, and unfortunately, back then, the unions have gotten a lot better now politically. But back then, they always supported the corporate Democrats, which I found so deeply ironic. And the biggest union in that race happens to coincidentally be Iatse. They bust in a bunch of people to do door knocking for my Democratic opponent within the primary.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

So in the middle of the campaign, we're having an all hands meeting at tyt. And right before the all hands meeting, there's a tweet out from something called the TYT union saying, we're going to unionize, tyt, et cetera. I never heard of a TYT union at that point. I've never heard of anything like that. And so I'm like, is this a joke? I don't even know what it is. Is it a campaign trick? What is this? I don't even know what it is. Then they eventually tell us, oh, we did a secret vote. That's. It was car check and we won. And now there's a union and Iatsi, your main. The guy that are helping your political opponent in the middle of this race has now unionized your company, the editors, graphics, stage managers, etc. And you don't get to find out how that happened. And I'm like, wait, what? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on. What? What? Secret bowl? What happened? I literally don't even know what happened.

[Unknown Guest]

Right. Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So then one of my. Actually a couple of my employees, but one very significantly said, look, there actually was a vote jank. But they browbeat us. Like, not the union, to be fair to ic, like, some of the people inside the company, they were like, you better vote this way, etc. And they said I wasn't that comfortable in the vote. And they asked us, like, can you please, like, get a verified vote? And I said, yeah, okay. And I went to IATSE and I said, guys, let's do a vote today or tomorrow, anytime you want, okay? But just a neutral third party. We both verify, and boom. I got no problem against the union. I have no problem at all. Like, our company's too small and. And. And so the economics of it aren't great. But it's okay. I'll live with it. I'll figure out a way.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay? Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

And so they go and do that vote eventually. And when they do the vote, they win. The union wins immediately. There's a union, and there's been a union for five years. We've renegotiated with them. We have great relationship with them. But guys from back then, who, by the way, one of the guys was let go, not even fired, but because we were downsizing. And that same downsizing, we parted ways with Hassan, who's now a huge streamer. We parted ways with another great host. It had nothing to do with the union. Nothing at all.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Okay, I want to move on to the next clip. You kind of. This is with Guy. Guy was defending more of like the Biden centrist. What? However you want to kind of label that faction part of the Democratic Party. And you go on a tear against Joe Manchin. And it's just. It's entertaining and interesting. So this is you and Guy, and you guys are still talking about your claim. Democrats don't want to pass their agenda. It's a marketing ploy, not a mission.

[Cenk Uygur]

They represent their people. No, they don't represent people. They sent him there.

[Unknown Host]

How do you know that? You're not from West.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay, hold on. They represent their donors. So, yes. Okay. It's an excuse. Oh, yeah, I know. The donors are nonexistent. It's nonexistent. More. More. Millions of dollars given to Joe Manchin.

[Unknown Host]

He doesn't outside groups in this election cycle.

[Cenk Uygur]

It's a boogeyman and you're wasting people's time with it. Nonsense sense. You know that Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, after they voted against minimum wage increase, went to the National Restaurant Associated and collected checks. They literally work for their donors. It is super literal. And what you're saying to people is ignore it. Ignore the donors. Ignore it. Everybody who sends money. It's disrespectful to Joe Manchin. And I intend to disrespect Joe Manchin. I despise Joe Manchin. I despise Those corporate Democrats who never, ever deliver for you, who never even try to deliver for you.

[Unknown Host]

What's your beef with Joe Manchin?

[Cenk Uygur]

Oh, I mean, he's the. He's one of the cancers, but. But he's symbolic, right? He. It's. So I'm gonna get back to Joe Manchester a second. But that. I. I wish I could debate guys like that all the time.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay?

[Cenk Uygur]

Not because he's not smart and a good guy, etc, but, like, he's from the old school where he's like, no. Hundreds of millions of dollars that donors give don't affect politicians at all. Politicians are good, honest representatives of the people. Like, no one believes that. Like, he's. He's Last of the Mohicans. Like, there's like 2% of the MSNBC and Fox News crowd who are like, no, my Republican and Democratic politicians are angels. Oh, they got $7 million about that. They wouldn't care about that at all. They just care about the people of West Virginia, brother. I mean, come on. Come on. Really? Like, nobody believes that anymore? Wakey, wakey, Right?

[Unknown Host]

Do you think it's. Do you think it's scorched earth right now for the Democratic Party? Like, they don't have any. Hardly any fans?

[Cenk Uygur]

No. There's a quarter of the country that, you know, I say 2%. That's hyperbole, right? There's. There's quarter of the country. No. 40 of the Democrats. It used to be 60, now it's 40, used to be 100. But anyway, 40% who are still like, no, I think Cory Booker did that, you know, speech, the filibuster. He's just so powerful and he's fighting back with words and strongly worded letters. And I believe in Cory Booker and Gillibrand and, oh, God, these Democratic senators, I love them.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

So that exists. That exists. And it's a big chunk. They still believe the propaganda, right? No, no, they not. It's nonsense. Forget, like, Mansion's obvious. Mansion literally lives on a yacht, okay? And so. And he literally owns a coal company. He passed a bill that gave his coal company a major tax break and limited his competition. He. He takes money from giant energy companies. Those are his top donors. I once interviewed him and I said, look, three of your top five donors or energy companies or whatever it was. I don't remember the exact numbers right now. And he said, jenks, call me Jenks. Throughout. He's like, jenks. He's like, I don't even know who my top donors are. And I was like, oh, come on, brother. You don't know who your top donors are. I mean, that's hilarious. That's high comedy. But everybody knows, outside of that one guy, everybody knows Joe Manchin is a crook, Right?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

But why do people keep voting for some of these, you know, Democratic senators if they're so toothless?

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. So super easy, okay, to explain money and media explains 98% of politics, maybe 100%. So, for example, in a small state like West Virginia, how do they find out what Joe Manchin is actually for? Well, they have almost no media that tells them, oh, did you know he actually passed a bill that helps his own coal company? Like, that's reported almost. Not at all in West Virginia. I'd be surprised if you could find 20 people in West Virginia that know that fact.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Cenk Uygur]

Why? It's not their fault. The media never, ever, ever reports it because they cover up for the corruption.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

So what do they know? In the old days when Manchin was getting elected, the only thing they knew was what they saw in the ads. And if you have more money, you get to have more ads. So Joe Manchin can and sometimes did in Democratic primaries, run against really honest, wonderful Democrats that represent the Democratic voters a lot better.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Or even populist voters of West Virginia overall a lot better. But they had almost no money. So they're not covered by media that goes, oh, Joe Manch is definitely going to win this race. He's the great incumbent, he's the front runner, outsider, primary challenge, irrelevant. We're not going to cover it. Okay? So then they take the oxygen out of the room, and you have no coverage, and then you have no money. So even if you have the better positions, nobody ever finds out. That's why money in politics is so powerful, because it allows you to basically buy the election by pretending to be something you're not. Here, I'll give you a quick example of it. Mitch McConnell in Kentucky ran on supporting Connect. That was the Obamacare version in Kentucky. But since he had all the money, his opponent couldn't say, my God, Mitch McConnell is pretending to support Obamacare when he's trying to tear down Obamacare. He's the biggest liar in the world, but it didn't matter. He bought all of the ads in Kentucky during that election because he had so much more money. And he pretended to be in favor of the Kentucky version of Obamacare because it was popular in Kentucky. So that's how lies win over truth, with money and media. You see what I'm saying?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. No, I think it makes sense. You can Smother out a competing message. And unless that person is an influencer with, you know, tremendous swing, it's. It's hard for them to get heard. That makes sense to me.

[Cenk Uygur]

You know.

[Unknown Host]

Did you follow this recent development with David Hogg and how he got pushed out of, you know, the DNC for suggesting that they would primary Democrats that they thought were ineffective? Curious what you thought about that.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, I like what he's doing in terms of the primary of Democrats. I love that.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Primaries are more important than general elections because that's where outsiders can beat insiders. That's where populists can beat the establishment, both in the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. And outsider populists are despised by both parties. So we should. That's why primaries are where you attack.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Cenk Uygur]

And that's where you can actually try to get representation for the American people, for the real voters. So in terms of what the DNC did to David Hogg, it was a little complicated because David came out against a rule that was actually pretty good where the DNC shouldn't get involved in primaries, because historically, 100% of the time they got involved in a primary, it was to back the corporate Democrat.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

And so it was actually progressives that had pushed that amendment through to make sure they don't interfere in primaries. But because he was helping progressives in primaries, he was kind of against that rule. So I actually disagreed with David on the first problem in the dnc, but past that. Yeah. The minute he said, we're going to primary incumbents, he was a goner. Like, then they were. Whether it was that legitimate situation. But even if it wasn't legitimate, they were going to find excuse after excuse after excuse, and they did. Eventually they found some sort of technicality. Oh, we didn't represent this or that enough. We're gonna do. Do a reboot. And eventually David's like, they're gonna do reboot after revote until they get me out. Which is true.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

That's what they were going to do. Because the DNC is the heart of corruption. They're the ones who funneled the donor money illegally to Hillary Clinton during the 2016.

[Unknown Host]

But there's not a lot of love for the DNC, at least not that I hear these days. I'm curious what you think about, like, Elon Musk is recently proposed a third political party. Is this something you've tried or. Or you support?

[Cenk Uygur]

So I've never tried a third party, and. But Elon has something I don't, which is a lot of money and a.

[Unknown Host]

And a platform.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Or like a social media platform.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. Theirs is a little bit larger. Yes. So look, I say to progressives who want to try it, do we have $20 million lying around somewhere? Because that's the bare minimum to get a third party up and running in a way that has, like, even the smallest chance.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Otherwise it's a fool's errand.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

And for Elon, 20 million is nothing.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

So 100 million, you could do 2 billion. So then he's got a perfectly good chance of starting a third party. It's just for us. We're populous, we don't have that much money. And whatever little money we have, we want to spend on the candidates to win politically.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Within the primaries. So that's why I haven't gotten a third party direction before. My. But my idea is a. Arguably a simpler one, and it's the one I had with just Democrats. Same thing I have now with Rebellion Pack. Build a pirate ship, pull your pirate ship up next to the Democratic aircraft carrier, board the aircraft carrier, take it over and say, we're the captains now. That's. You know, whenever I used to say that, people say, oh, it's wishful thinking. It's a fantasy, can never happen. Then Trump did it on a dinghy, right? He didn't even have a pirate ship. He just pulled up a dinghy and took her over. That. You know why? The same reason that we could do it, because people that represent the donor class are servants. They're weak and they're not that bright.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay?

[Cenk Uygur]

They're just waiters and waitresses taking orders. Oh, oil companies would like this. Yes, sir, right away, sir. Oh, the military industrial complex would like this. Oh, yes, sir, right away, sir. How much more money would you like at the Pentagon, sir? Right, but those people, and I don't mean to insult waiters and waitresses, they're way smarter than politicians and a lot harder working.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

But those order takers in the realm of politics are empty suits. They're paper tigers. So what Trump and his team found out is once you get on. On board the ship, it's easy. After that, once you get past the gatekeepers and the gates, it's. They all just fall like dominoes, right? Give me one candidate that gets past the gates, we take over the Democratic Party.

[Unknown Guest]

We.

[Cenk Uygur]

But this time, unlike Trump, who took over the Republican Party for me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

And all my friends and my family, and gave me jets and $2 billion deals, etc. We take over the Democratic Party for the people, for the average American. So, again, yes, but you need someone honest.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Okay, so just a couple more clips. I know we're coming up on time.

[Unknown Guest]

Your.

[Unknown Host]

Your last claim was media and money control, all of politics. And I thought this was, you know, not very controversial. I think a lot of people would agree. But I want to talk a little bit more about new media and audience capture as we kind of think about populism, the bully pulpit, hijacking parties. So this is you talking to Alex, don't you think?

[Beau]

Especially with alternative media people creators, like, chase the audience and they try to be as outrageous as possible to like, because, I don't know, outrage sells and it's an. Audience capture is a huge thing. So they're running around chasing audiences. It's not money coming up top down. It's like bottom up. People are angry. Want to say like disagreement.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. You're not wrong about that, brother. So there's a giant distinction between mainstream media and now online and independent media. So as I said earlier, online and independent media has at least got people thinking. And it's a wide range of opinions, and I greatly prefer it. Mainstream media does not care and it doesn't do the thing you're talking about. What it does is it says, no, Joe Manchin is a moderate, Mitch McConnell oftentimes is considered a moderate, etc. That's nonsense.

[Beau]

You think alternative.

[Cenk Uygur]

Nothing but lies to get you to vote for corporate politicians on the Democratic.

[Beau]

Alternative media is helping our politics.

[Cenk Uygur]

Do you think it generates better. Is much, much better than mainstream media.

[Unknown Host]

All right, we're both in alternative media. Do you worry about audience capture and how that affects the information ecosystem? And have you ever struggled or been concerned that audience capture has been impacting you?

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. No. So audience capture is an enormous phenomenon. We're strong, so we don't. And principled, so we don't do that. But has it affected us? Oh, yeah. Okay, not the capture part, but when you go against audience capture, then it affects you a lot. And that's why everybody else is scared to death of it. So. So is it affecting, like, let's say Joe Rook.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

So Rogan is not. He's already rich, he doesn't need the money, he's already famous, etc. And so. But he has a lot of guests on that are more right wing. That attracts an audience that's a little bit more right wing. So then he doesn't want to disappoint his audience. That's a normal human reaction.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

And when he does something that they don't like, they go, no, Joe, we don't like that, etc.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But I give you that as an example of a guy who's actually pretty immovable. Like he's moved a little bit from guest capture and a little bit from audience capture, but not that much.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

So, but for people who are coming up, oh, audience capture is an enormous phenomenon and it's, it's so hard to pull yourself away from that force field.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

So here, I'll give you an example of it. So I'll give you two examples. When we were, we supported Obama over Hillary Clinton, we support obama over John McCain. So, you know, we've been around forever, right? So then Obama starts three months in, I'm like, wait, he's not doing the things he said he was going to do. And, and I start criticizing him from the left and a lot of our audience starts to get mad. They're like, cenk, we refer Obama. What are you doing? You're criticizing Obama. That's it. I'm canceling my membership. So I'm not going to give you the five bucks, ten bucks a month anymore. I'm not going to give you views, etc. So we took a hit. There are a lot of people principled enough to take that economic hit, that viewer hit, all of that, and just stick with what they believe and not get audience captured. In my experience, that's a very, very few number of people in online media that don't get enraptured by that. The second example is worse. Recently a lot of the left wing media attacked me because I was talking to right wingers and I wasn't.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I was tracking that. You kept coming up in X. Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So I, you know, their strategy is take the Trump voters, he won the popular vote, and call them racist and fascist. And then what happens? They're less likely to vote for you, not more likely to vote for you. It's a purposely dumb strategy. But why do they do something so obviously wrong? Because audience capture. Because their audience is telling them, you have to call it fascist, call them fascist. Okay, look, guys, I get it. I called Trump fascist when he was running. Why? Because he's authoritarian by nature. But if you start telling the people that, if you start attacking the voters instead of Trump or the politicians or the donors, then you're never going to win those guys back. And a lot of them are anti corruption, are anti war. They got misled. If somebody got misled, you offer a hand up and especially if you're on the left, especially if you're a progressive, you keep an open mind, an open heart, and you say, hey, brother, I think you went in the wrong direction a little bit. But let me show you why. This is the right direction.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

If you call them a Nazi, they're never going to vote for you ever again. So why. And so. But when we did that, when we chose the correct strategy, some of our audience was mad. Why were they mad? Because they listened to the other left wing shows too. And all the other left wing shows are saying the brilliant strategy is just call them all racist. Just call them all Nazis.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

So when they humanize, don't do that.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. What happened, John, was we did lose a percentage of our audience and we did lose subscribers and we did lose money.

[Unknown Guest]

Right? Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So. And I'm sure, like I'm. I say that publicly. So our opponents are gleeful about that. They're like, yes, tear it down. Okay, wait, so you're going to tear down the largest left wing network because of a 5% disagreement on strategy and style, and you think you're helping the cause, but they don't care because audience capture. Tear it down. Tear it down. Right, but. So we did that. We defied audience capture. Why? Because we're stubborn and we're gonna do what's right and what's true and what's principled, even if it costs us a lot of money, even if it costs us clout or status, we're gonna do it anyway. But John, how many people are gonna say, yeah, I'm willing to lose a whole bunch of money and I'm willing to lose a whole bunch of my audience to do the right thing?

[Unknown Host]

Unfortunately, not many. Yeah. Something I'm curious about though, just, you know, isn't populism. This is just something that's kind of like. It feels like there's a little bit of a contradiction here, though. Isn't populism in and of itself a bit of audience capture? You know, and this is a criticism that I hear towards Mamdani that I think is kind of interesting is a lot of people say that these policies like freezing rent and city run grocery stores. He's promising things that he can't deliver and that are economically illiterate, but they're really effective at turning out support for him. So do you worry that populism can be weaponized to elect, you know, a harmful or, you know, just irresponsible figure? Not saying that, Mom, Donnie is that. But some think he is.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. So John That's a really good question, because it, that's an important distinction between audience capture and populism. So let me explain what it is. So populism is serving the majority of the people, the great majority of the people. And in a, in politics, that's your job. You're literally their representative.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

So there's nothing wrong with that at all. So if the American people want lower housing prices is you, you should go for lower housing prices. Right, That's. But they say, oh, no, no, we're so sophisticated. You should have higher housing prices. No, that's not sophisticated. No, you're wrong about that.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

So audience capture is when you do something irrational and oftentimes, you know to be irrational, not because you think it's right, like the right policy, the right point of view, but because you have now an economic incentive and an. And a cloud incentive and a social incentive to go in the wrong direction on purpose. Because. And look, I get that on purpose, the lines get blurred because a lot of this is subconscious. A lot of the people who've been audience captured, they don't look at themselves in the mirror.

[Unknown Host]

They're not aware of it.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, oh, I sold out. But, but I see hosts and they've changed. Like they. And you can see their changes, right? Going from like, oh, let's hear out both sides and see what's right and wrong to no, my side is 100% right, 200% right. The other side is evil and Satan. I'm like, brother, you didn't act like that four years ago. Now there's something, oh, Kamala Harris won. Like, wait, now we have Qanon on our side. What is this?

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

And so you can see the audience capture with your own eyes, but they, they're the last ones to see it, the people who are actually affected. So that's. But, but it, overall, it means going in the wrong direction for the wrong reasons. Cloud money, etc, populism, where you serve the people is the right direction. But then when you get to Mamdani, then we're having a question about policy. He wants to serve the people.

[Unknown Guest]

That's great, right?

[Cenk Uygur]

Is he doing it the right way? Okay, well, that's a debate about the policy, right? Because at least he's trying to serve the people. He's saying, yes, housing prices are too high. You're right. Yes, these prices for groceries are too high.

[Unknown Guest]

You're right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Now I have a solution. Let's try my solution. When you go to Andrew Cuomo and the corporate Democrats, their solution is, let's just keep everything the same. Nah.

[Unknown Guest]

No.

[Cenk Uygur]

No way. No way.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So I'm a vote against that every time.

[Unknown Host]

Experimentation can be. Can be good.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. I'd rather have someone who's. I'm not a socialist, but I'd rather have a democratic socialist like Mamdani actually trying to fix the problems than a corporate Democrat, an establishment Democrat who promises to never fix anything. Right. And I will say in the wrong direction.

[Unknown Host]

I think that is sort of whether you think Mamdani is going in the wrong direction. I think it's an easier argument to say that he's doing it for the right reasons. And I think that's why he's so popular, is because you really. You get a genuine sense that he. He wants to help people, and he wants. He believes in the goals of the ideas that he's proposing, even if they ultimately end up being the wrong, you know, ideas to. To. To implement. So it'll be interesting to see if more figures like Mamdani pop up.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, no, no, they will for sure, but. And to my friends on the left, like, I'm super excited that Mamdani won, even though I don't agree with all of his policies exactly as he has them.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But then they take that excitement. They say, see, democratic socialism can win everywhere.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

No, no.

[Unknown Host]

New York for sure is an easier place.

[Cenk Uygur]

I wish that were true because it's better than the establishment Democrats. It's better than the Republicans, but it's not going to win in Kansas. It's not going to win in Missouri.

[Unknown Guest]

Get real. Right, right, right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But people on the extremes, they don't. They hate the idea of getting real. They don't want real. They want extremes.

[Unknown Guest]

Right? Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

Oh, yeah. The people of Kansas can't wait for taking over the means of production. Like, come on. Come on, guys. Like, like you're betraying yourself that you don't know the simplest things about politics. I'm not saying don't go for, like, a pathway. Hey, look, Mom, Donnie worked in New York, and Cenk is wrong about rent control.

[Unknown Guest]

You.

[Cenk Uygur]

Here's it working. Now it worked in Seattle. Oh, wait. Now it worked in Wichita. Okay, okay. Now we're slowly convincing the people of Kansas that rent control can work Or. Or public banks or public grocery stores can work. Okay, I got no problem with that. Go ahead, do that. Then it becomes realistic. But in today's environment, to think that you're going to take over the means of production in Kansas, well, that's cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

That's just like, get. That's what I mean by. You got to be realistic. On the other hand, if you went to Kansas and you ran on a populist platform, which most of the Democratic socialists agree with, almost all of them agree with, but a lot of right wingers agree with, too. Anti war, anti corruption, higher wages, lower drug prices, lower housing prices, paid family leave. Well, that unites the whole country. That unites 75% of us. And it. Those are all progressive policies. So why not do those in Kansas? Why not do those in. In. And we literally are rebellion. PAC is a candidate in North Carolina, Wisconsin and Iowa. To me, that's the. The logical strategy and the strategy where we win and we take power. We take power away from Trump, we take power away from the wrong direction, and we. And we set the course for the American people and. But you gotta be. But you gotta deliver and you gotta mean it. If it's all a trick, then it's just another. Then people get more jaded, more angry, and then we lead to solutions that are very unproductive.

[Unknown Guest]

Right, Right.

[Unknown Host]

Thank you so much for going into so much depth with me. It's been really great talking to you and thank you for doing Surrounded again on Jubilee. That was just awesome to see you. I've been watching you, seeing you online for years. It was awesome to see you in one of our shows.

[Cenk Uygur]

Look, when I was a kid, I used to wrestle, like six kids at a time. So, like, grappling with 20 people at a time, I was made for.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. And only a true populous, you know, charismatic leader can hold their own in the center.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. So let's go find that person and. And hopefully they'll be on Jubilee.

[Unknown Host]

Suit sounds good, man. All right, take care. Talk to you soon.

[Cenk Uygur]

All right, thank you, Joe.

[Unknown Host]

Bye.

[John Regalato]

If you want more follow up episodes of Surrounded, be sure to like and subscribe.

[Unknown Host]

If you want to see full video.

[John Regalato]

Episodes of Surrounded, go to Jubilee's YouTube channel. If you want to hear more from me, find me on X or YouTube. John Regalato, thanks so much for listening. Remember, you could be wrong, so could I. Keep your mind open until next time.