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- [00:00]
A
Look, you should not be hassling people who are American. So American to bring in millions of illegals into this country and people that voted for Trump that have. What are you talking about? Look, look, look. Jp. My name is jp. It sounds from Juan Pablo. I love the Latino people. Great. I might look like a white boy, have the white boy aura, but I'm a Latino man. Yeah, I like Juan Pablo. He was first. I wish I would have gotten a warm up, you know, because he came out of the. Out of the gate hot. And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people, custom insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty, Liberty. Liberty Savings Ferry.
- [00:51]
B
Underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.
- [00:54]
A
Hey, what's up, y'? All? Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. My favorite thing about the holidays, decking out my whole house. It's not a competition, but if it was, well, I'd win the season with Wayfair Outdoor inflatable Santa. Got it on Wayfair. Trees, lights and ornaments. Wayfair hosting must haves like dining sets, beds, sheets and towels. Wayfair for everything in your style, delivered with fast and free shipping. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app to win the season. But again, it's not a competition. Wayfair every style, every home.
- [01:24]
B
Alright here with Tim Miller from the Bulwark after his Surrounded episode. Tim, thanks for, for being on the Surrounded follow up.
- [01:33]
A
What's up, man? Happy to do it. It was a blast.
- [01:35]
B
Something that I was kind of thinking about as I was prepping for this interview is like, I've sort of become more and more aware of you in the aftermath of the election and then also kind of leading into it. And so you're like a new rising figure and kind of rising voice in what I would consider kind of like the new left or maybe sort of like a rebooted left. And so what has it been like to see your influence increase over the years and sort of see yourself become a figure like that?
- [02:06]
A
I find it pretty strange, to be honest. It was not really intended. Kind of happened by accident and we launched the Bulwark basically. And for folks don't know, I used to be a Republican operative. I was always working for like the moderate Republican types. But even still, it's a different era. Much about it Republicans don't really exist anymore. And my friend Sarah Longwell launched a bulwark and asked me to help. And it was kind of like a project we were all doing on the side, and it just sort of took off and had a life of its own. And like, initially we had that initial core group of like former Republicans that were listening. And then we picked up a lot of, I think, left folks that were listening who liked either hearing from us because we were former Republicans who felt bad. And maybe it was that or maybe a lot of people would say they liked it because, like, they had family members that had gone MAGA and they felt like they couldn't talk to them. And we were sort of, you know, played us like a surrogate role for them where they felt like they could have the conversations they used to be able to have with their conservative family members and have some disagreements, but haven't good spirits. And it was hard to do now because of Trump. And, you know, and here we are, what, five, six years later and like, we've grown a big audience, I think, of people who don't even really know that backstory or like, know anything, like, even realize that a lot of us were former Republicans. And I don't know, in that sense, it's kind of surreal. But I think the thing that has worked in my estimation is because it was a side hustle, because all of us were kind of like doing a careerist thing. We were able to just be honest and like, not bullshit people. And I think that people really want that and crave that in the political debate. I think there's a lot of bullshit out there. And so, you know, in that sense, to the extent that I'm having any influence on people on the left or politicians on the left is just because I think they feel like they can, they know they're not getting talk from me. And that's pretty cool.
- [04:01]
B
No, I feel like you do bring kind of more of a down to earth energy into, you know, your content, your conversations. And so I can see how that resonates as relatable and also kind of millennial, which, you know, is the framing of your surrounded episode. You know, a liberal millennial and conservative. Gen Z. Did you, you know, did you anticipate conservatism kind of having a moment with the next generation? I'm, you know, I'm a millennial as well. But I've noticed people, people are surprised kind of by this, like, swing to the right that resonates with, with them.
- [04:39]
A
Yeah, I guess I was a Little bit surprised at the scale of it in the last election. Like the degree to which people move towards Trump in that generation, that we're already seeing some backsliding, if you. If you trust the polls. I do think it's kind of tough to poll Gen Z, but I wasn't totally surprised because I have been doing this thing for, I guess, three years now, and I was thinking about writing a book about it and it just didn't come together for a variety of reasons where every Christmas I went to the Turning Point USA Conference America Fest in Phoenix and just kind of hung out with the Gen Z conservative types and talked to them and argued with them a little bit or asked some questions and listened. And so I felt like I had a pretty good sense actually of what was happening and like, what the appeal was to conservatism. I think a lot of these words are sort of losing. They're not losing meaning, but the meaning is being redefined in some way. A lot of the Gen Z conservatives, particularly, like the kind of nationalist, isolationist ones, like, aren't really that conservative in like, my old school Reagan sense. Right. And I'm not like liberal really, in like the lefty, like old school lefty sense. Right. But I do think that there is just like, you know, kind of an evolution of how people talk about all this, but, like the fact that there is an appeal among young, particularly men, but not entirely men, to sort of a vision that is more isolationist, more America first, maybe a little caring, a little bit less about some of the, you know, cutting regulations, cutting tax, like some of that sort of stuff that was so central to conservatism in the 80s and 90s. I learned about all of that from kind of going to these Turning Point USA functions. And so, I don't know, I felt like I have a pretty good sense of where these young folks are headed on at least why this kind of Trump brand of conservatism appeals to them.
- [06:45]
B
No, that makes sense. And yeah, Turning Point, as a lot more people are aware now, really has been kind of like a foundational part of that movement. Something I'm curious about. You know, I know you talked to Mehdi after he came onto the show. Obviously his episode was notorious or infamous for a variety of reasons. What were your thoughts just going into the series and were you hesitant to be a part of the show?
- [07:14]
A
I wasn't hesitant. I might have been last year and after Trump won again, one of my big vows to myself was I wanted to get outside of the liberal bubble. You Know, and I wanted to talk to people outside of it. I think because of my background, it's former conservative because my, like, views aren't really extreme on the left. I feel like I'm a useful messenger to try to get, you know, to try to at least engage with people who, you know, went along with Trump, but maybe have might have mixed views about him and, you know, maybe had some uncertainty about him. And so I just like, I wanted to do that and find ways to either debate or communicate or engage with people who were at least Trump curious. I'm not gonna probably win over the maga hat crowd. Right. But kind of engage with a broader group of people. And so I was excited to do it. The Mehdi thing didn't really scare me off. That was to your last question about were you surprised? I feel like I was the only person on the Internet that wasn't surprised by what Mehdi ranch. I'm like, I know all these kids. Like, I don't follow them all personally, but I've heard many of the arguments he made that were made at his, you know, going against him. And in some level, and I guess we can talk about this, I think that maybe the kind of makeup of the 20 that were at the metisurounded might have been more representative of like, what actually at least the hyper engaged Maga young maga conservatives think and believe than my group, which was a little bit more mixed and I think had softer, you know, views on some things. And, you know, I think there's a big Christian component in the one that I did, which I do think is an important part of young conservatism too. But maybe it's a little bit less on the rise than, you know, more. The more kind of nationalist stuff that you saw in the Mehdi episode.
- [09:10]
B
Yeah, well, I could talk about Mehdi's episode for a long, long time, but I definitely, I want to start reacting to some clips from yours. Okay, so you ready to jump into it?
- [09:19]
A
I'm nervous a little bit. I was. I'm more nervous to re watch the clips than I was to do it. So we'll see. We'll see how I did.
- [09:25]
B
Yeah, it's got to be. It's got to be strange to see yourself.
- [09:28]
A
Yeah. And I kind of black out when I go in there. I just sort of do it and start spitballing. So I kind of don't even remember. But anyway. All right, let's do it.
- [09:37]
B
Okay, so this first one I'm pulling up, this is in the context of your first claim in the edit, which was, you know, that ICE has become a fascistic institution. This is an exchange you have with a cast member named jp.
- [09:52]
A
I think that if you described what they're doing in another country, you'd obviously say it's fascist. You got people coming up in unmarked cars, they are wearing masks, they're jumping out and they're asking people for their papers. That's not American. That is not within our traditions or our rule of law. How should they deport them? Should they, like, just like, knock on the door and be like, hey, Mr. Illegal, can you come out? Yeah. Do you want to have a little chat? You know, like. Yeah, actually, they broke the law. They came here into this country illegally and we have to enforce it. So, like, if we're going to call ICE fascist, you guys call everything fascist nowadays, then what are we going to have? We're not going to deport them. And then the people are going to be ignored. I don't think we need to ignore the people. I think you look at us, have deportations. There are a lot of. Donald. Look, there are a lot of Donald Trump supporters out there that don't like the way that ICE has been acting. You hear this from Joe Rogan, you hear from Tim Dillon. What they've been doing is un American. You should not be. Look, you should not be hassling people who are American. You're so American to bring in millions of illegals into this country. There are people that voted for Trump that. What are you talking about? Look, look, look, jp. My name is jp. It starts from Juan Pablo. I love the Latino people. I might look like a white boy, have the white bora, but I'm a Latino man. And I understand that it might seem like they're coming after the Latinos, but really what we're doing is respecting our laws. We're constituting our laws. No, they're respecting. They're not respecting our laws, boss. Pause, pause, pause. I'm sorry, but you have to respect me when I say pause. You've been eliminated.
- [11:15]
B
You have to go back to the chair.
- [11:17]
A
Good to see you, man.
- [11:18]
B
Okay, so we're jumping right into it.
- [11:21]
A
Yeah.
- [11:22]
B
What do you feel reliving it?
- [11:23]
A
Yeah, I like Juan Pablo. He was first. I wish I would have gotten a warm up, you know, because he came out of the. Out of the gate hot and I liked that guy. We debated again later. I thought he was super smart about. I think he was quoting Tocqueville. In the second time that we discussed things, I disagreed with him on this point from the tactical strategy of dealing with Jubilee, I was still trying to navigate how much do I talk over these guys, how much do I wait? It's a long show. And the point that I was trying to make that I do end up making later in the show, if I recall correctly, now this is jogging my memory is basically my reaction to what he said was like, yeah, immigration naturalization officials should go up to the door of someone and say, hey, Mr. Illegal, you have two months to go. Here's your papers, here's your deportation papers. And if you don't go, then we're gonna have to send in somebody with a warrant to come get you. Yes. That is how you're supposed to handle it. It's how we've handled this throughout our history in this country. And I do think that there, and I think particularly for young people, this is something that is that I worry about, which is that, like, Trump era has gone on for so long now. Like, a lot of people there were in fucking middle school when Trump came down the escalator, and so that's all they know. Yeah, a lot of this stuff feels normal. And it's like, this isn't really. I don't really love that phrasing, like, we can't normalize him, but like, this isn't how things are supposed to work in a free society. And there's a way to enforce the border and to enforce immigration law that is not doing kind of fascistic style tactics. And I stand by that word, which is like people jumping out of vans, going up to people on the street that look Hispanic and asking them to show us their papers. Like, we should not live in a show us your papers country. We have no obligation in a free country to walk around carrying our papers. And we get into it later. But there have been plenty of examples of people who are American citizens who are hassled by ICE and CBP and treated horribly because of the tactics they've been using.
- [13:28]
B
Something that came up a lot in the context of this prompt was, you know, this is the will of the voters. We have an extreme problem with illegal immigration. And so it does require kind of what will feel like an extreme approach to solving it. I think somebody listening to this might want to hear from you.
- [13:51]
A
Sure.
- [13:51]
B
What do you think Democrats and the left in general got wrong about immigration? And what do you think were the biggest factors that contributed to kind of this crisis that we have right now?
- [14:05]
A
I just want to say really quick to the question of people voted for this, which is like, we live in a liberal. This is why I say I'm a liberal. Live in a liberal democracy, okay? Like, we have a rule of law. We don't live in a country where if you get 50.1% of the vote, then the president is the king and gets to do whatever they want. Right? Like, they still. Even if he still wants. Even if there was an election where there was a mandate for deportations and he still has to deport people in a manner that is constitutional and that is within the American law and tradition. So that is. That's my response to that. Like, it doesn't. We cannot even debate whether or not he really had a mandate for this or not. But it's like, even if he did, he's still going to follow the laws. And what ICE and CBP are doing right now is. Is unconstitutional. As for what the Democrat, what happened with the Democrats? Look, this can go back to the 2020 primary when I think Julian Castro, I believe it was, was pushing for decriminalizing border crossings altogether. And there was like a. One of the debates when there were like 100 Democrats up there. It was like, do you support decriminalizing the border at all together? So if you come across the border, you're not a criminal. And, like, pretty much everybody raised their hand. Joe Biden didn't raise their hand. I'm going from memory now, so I apologize to Pete if I get this wrong. I think Pete, like, kind of half raised his hand and then took it down. Like, you know, there may be one other person, like Michael Bennett, maybe didn't raise their hand. But I, like most everybody, did. And I do think that the left got just way outside the mainstream from the public about how to handle immigration and how to handle just maintaining a system at the border that was secure and that protected American citizens. And you can do this humanely. There are ways to. If you go back and look at the Obama era, for example, you know, there were some influxes that happened at the border a couple of times, but, like, they did the best they could. You know, we could nitpick some of the things one way or the other of handling what was happening at the border and cracking down when there were big surges that just didn't happen during the Biden administration. Maybe in part because. I think in part because Biden was kind of scared of his left flank, maybe in part because of the fact that he's aging and just didn't want to take on this fight, just would rather ignore it. I think maybe there's a lot of this. Of just, like, there's a lot of head in the sand, I think, among people in the Biden administration. They're focused on other stuff, and it just objectively kind of got out of control. And then they finally sort of got it in control in the election year by doing the things they really should have been doing from the start with regards to, like, remain in Mexico and some of the other policies they put in place. But it was. I think it was just too late. Like, the, it had set in already. Like the, the image of what they were doing had set in with voters.
- [16:48]
B
Yeah. An interesting argument, or I guess just observation I've heard on the issue. Well, I mean, I do think it's hard to look at, like, some of the memes that are posted or like, the videos that feel like action films, you know, by this administration and not see that as cruel because, you know, people's lives are being pulled apart with some of these raids and deportations. And to turn that into entertainment is definitely cruel. But I've also kind of heard the observation that, that, that overly empathetic or that kind of maybe naive approach that the left had towards, like you're saying, being too lenient around the idea of illegal bordering crossings. That was its own form of cruelty that kind of, like, built this, this crisis. And so, yeah, it's, it's just funny that, you know, this, this issue has been like, a centerpiece of, of Trump's messaging as long as he's been in, you know, in the political limelight. But Democrats are still sort of figuring out what exactly are their talking points around it. Do you agree?
- [17:52]
A
Yeah, I think so. I think that, I think that might. I think it'll be interesting to see what happens in 2028 on that front. And I think that, you know, that in 24, they kind of had settled on a message of, you know, being for border security and, but also being empathetic and welcoming people into the country and not doing the racist stuff about how Haitians eat their cats and dogs, and it didn't land. So I suspect that there will probably be a pretty varied difference of opinion on the Democratic side on how to handle this going forward. And, you know, it's challenging. It's not easy. Look, Trump is finding out that it's challenging, right? Like, it had worked for him in two elections for sure. But the point that I made in that clip is also true. Like, he's underwater on immigration right now. Like, the people wanted him to secure the border. They didn't want this. And like his numbers have dropped precipitously since we taped that. And at the time, kind of the canaries of the coal mine were like some of these people who were in his coalition, but more on the outskirts, like Tim Dillon and Joe Rogan were speaking out against it.
- [18:52]
B
Yeah, and you're right. I think in a year we'll definitely have like a much clearer idea or sense of the effects of this pretty intense approach. What also came up in this discussion of ICE was just your use of like the term fascism or fascist. And Noelle, the next clip I'm pulling up is with Noelle who just kind of objected to the use of that rhetoric. And so I'm going to play you a clip from her.
- [19:18]
A
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- [19:38]
B
I got a message that our flight.
- [19:39]
A
Was canceled, but they can put us on another flight and we just need.
- [19:44]
B
To confirm our credit card info.
- [19:47]
A
Wait, I got a security alert from McAfee. It flagged that message as a scam. McAfee's scam detector automatically spots and alerts you to suspicious texts, emails and deep fake videos. Learn more@mcafee.com online protection. Kraft Mac and cheese is the best thing ever. It's even better than pop music. You look just as natural enjoying us at age 13 as you do 55. Kraft Mac and cheese. Best thing ever. I don't agree with the way that.
- [20:22]
B
ICE is approaching the immigration system. I'm with you there.
- [20:25]
A
I don't agree with it.
- [20:26]
B
I don't agree with sending American citizens without due process. I'm with you.
- [20:30]
A
My concern specifically is using the rhetoric.
- [20:32]
B
Of fascists because it fuels political violence.
- [20:35]
A
That is my concern. It's okay to disagree, but I don't.
- [20:38]
B
Think that that is an equivalency to Nazi Germany. I just don't.
- [20:41]
A
I don't either.
- [20:43]
B
Alright, so that's a short clip, but what do you think? Just this is something we're hearing more and more obviously in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's assassination. But what's your response to this idea that the Democrats are throwing around the word fascist too much?
- [20:57]
A
Yeah, just a couple of things with this real quick. It's funny to watch this now with having Zoran and Trump having met in the White House last Friday where Trump's like, go ahead and call me a fascist. So I Guess that moment was so fascinating. Yeah, I guess using the word fascist is no longer an incitement to violence. And then on the Charlie Kirk thing, which is sensitive, and I was sensitive about it in this group, obviously, there are a lot of Charlie Kirk fans there, and I don't. I'm not for any sort of incitement to violence, but, like, there's not any evidence that this killer, Tyler Robinson was, like, watching ABC this week and was, you know, radicalized by the rhetoric of democratic politicians. You know what I mean? Like, we just have to be real about this. Like this. It was a specific case. You know, we're learning more, but, like, kind of based on what was on the bullets and what is what his relationship with the roommate, the trans roommate, and why he's upset with Charlie Kirk. It's like, it wasn't because of, you know, academic terms about, like, the direction of the regime. Like, that just wasn't what happened. And so we shouldn't, I think, start to stipulate speech because, like, of some imaginary cause of that assassination, which wasn't the real cause. And lastly, I just think the point that I tried to make is, like, they are acting fascistic. They just are. And maybe part of the thing that complicates this is that maybe we need more words in the American language. I don't know. But the fascism does sort of go from everything from Orban's Hungary all the way to North Korea right now, all the way to Hitler. Right. Like, all of those things are fascist in their own way. I can fly into Orban's Hungary as a gay man who's criticized Viktor Orban and not be at all afraid for my life. You know, I can live and exist. Right. I can't go to North Korea. In Germany, I would have been, like, in danger of going to the concentration camps. Right. So, like, you know, I think that. I think it's just a misunderstanding of kind of, like, the categorization to be like, okay, well, if you call him a fascist, that means you're saying he's Hitler. Like, I'm not saying. I didn't say it was Hitler. If I wanted to say Hitler, it would have been in the claim.
- [22:59]
B
Well, yeah, and you were specifically referring to, you know, ICE and not. Not even necessarily the whole administration. It does feel, though, like there's this finger moving around of, like, trying to point the finger of blame of what's causing radicalization. And. Yeah, I mean, Jubilee, we obviously get our fair share of it, like, engaging or platforming people who do have Extreme views in these videos, people say, you know, that's contributing to radicalization. And so it really is kind of a puzzle to me, like, what. What is the game plan or what is a healthy approach to, I don't know, political disagreement, political argument that. That's in favor of de radicalization? Do you have any. Any idea?
- [23:41]
A
Yeah, the formula. I mean, for starters, I would just say, like, de platforming is. Is a stupid argument. I wish I would never have to hear that word again. Like I said, everyone is platformed already. It's too late. Like the fact. Maybe that was a sense. Maybe I disagree with it personally, kind of. But maybe that would have made sense 20 years ago if we were able to control the growth of the Internet. But like, we haven't been able to. And Nick Fuentes and Hasanpay and not compare those two. But, like, whoever is extreme to you, they have huge platforms already. Their followers have huge little mini platforms, you know, and so people are able to get their message out now. And so to me, I just think that you have to recognize this exists, and I think you have to engage with it. To me, it's just like, I don't know, Candace Owens is out there saying some really crazy stuff right now. Some people say, well, ignore that because you don't want to fuel it and give it more attention. I kind of think the opposite. I think it's like, mock it and make fun of it and engage with it and try to engage on the merits with people about it. You really think that the French president's wife is trans and that she hired an Israeli assassin to kill Charlie Kirk? There's no evidence of that. Let's go through the evidence. Right? And so I just think that's the only way to deal with it in this world. I do think the tech companies have some responsibility here. And I think that to the extent that there's any potential regulation, I do think that the algorithms are totally out of control and incentivize this stuff. And, you know, I did some consulting back from Faith for Facebook back in the old times, before I was a content man and I was a junior person or whatever. But, like, my advice was always just like, can we just go back to the original news feed where people sign up for news from people and then you get that information from the people you've signed up for. Because to me, I think that would contribute to de radicalization. That just is like the idea that I have, because it's like, okay, well then if Candace Owens or Nick Fuentes or whoever Wants to build an audience of people that like them, who choose to follow them. It's a free country. I don't know how we stop that. But like, should the big tech companies be forcing that into the feeds of 17 year olds who are just learning about the world, who haven't heard all the arguments, who don't know everything that's going on in the news over forcing ABC News into their feed? Or if you're more on the right now, I guess, CBS News? I just think that the algorithms are doing a lot of this. That's a tech regulation issue, I think, than the responsibility of any of us.
- [26:10]
B
Yeah, totally. I do think it's interesting, this idea of kind of algorithmic freedom or more transparency or choice around algorithms is something I'm hearing more and more. Okay, so moving on to the next clip. The next claim that you had was around guns, guns in the US and you kind of took an angle on that infamous claim that Charlie Kirk made about saying, you know, gun deaths are worth it to preserve the Second Amendment. So I'm going to play a clip from your conversation with Micah.
- [26:45]
A
Obviously this is a reference to the Charlie Kirk quote about how it was worth some gun deaths every year to have the second Amendment as it's currently written. And my view is this, look, this is not an argument to repeal the Second Amendment. My point is that we shouldn't have a fatalistic view about this to just say, we have the second Amendment, nothing we can do now, some people are gonna die because of it. And so we've just. That's just the price of freedom. For example, in Canada, you have a right to bear arms still. But it's like you have to get a license, there has to be training, you know, you have to pass background checks.
- [27:18]
B
Is that not also in the United States too?
- [27:21]
A
No, you don't need a gun license. Well, no, you know, what I'm saying is it's not like a driver's license like you, you don't have to like go to a, when you're getting a driver's license here. It's more akin to what you do in Canada. You have to go to classes, you have to, you don't have to, you know, you don't. You have to prove. You have to prove that you have to know how to use the guns. Like there is a process. There's no process in the United States. Well, in a lot of cases you don't have to go through a process. Sure. People have easy access to guns in this country without going through the process. There is easy access for younger people to get high, to get high powered weapons.
- [27:52]
B
That's definitely not true.
- [27:53]
A
But can, can you name, can you name the legislation that would have prevented Charlie Kirk from being assassinated? Well, no, because there wouldn't have been a piece of legislation that could prevent a Charlie Kirk from being assassinated. My point is that his initial claim was in service of this idea that we have a maximalist view of the Second Amendment.
- [28:12]
B
When I hear this topic come up a lot, a lot of times I hear the criticism of Democrats saying they don't understand gun laws or they don't understand guns enough to create effective legislation, to have the outcomes that they, they desire. But then a lot of times what I hear, you know, like from you in that clip is that it feels like there's such a common sense, low hanging fruit that we could reach for to have safer gun laws in the U.S. what is, I guess the first place I want to start is like, what is something if you could just like grab a Second Amendment conservative in America and just be like, this is what, this is a common sense thing. It's not taking your guns. What's like the most obvious thing you wish you could communicate to someone like that?
- [28:58]
A
I mean, I don't know that I think that we should have a very high bar for access to guns for anybody that's under 21 and maybe even under 25. I mean again, like that guy was objecting to. A lot of people live in California, so the laws are a little stricter in California. But like in a lot of states if you're 24, I get, it's pretty frictionless to get a gun. I mean there's like some basic requirements, but compared to what you have to do, like in Canada, as I mentioned, you have like an eight hour training class. I think it should be pretty challenging for you to be able to get a gun if you're not below 25. I mean most of these mass shootings are from people that are under 25. And you know, and like we have a lot of rules in other areas around this spot. I think I forget if I made it in this clip or one of the other places where it's like there's rules around Zinn and guns like, you know, should not be that similar. Right. Like, I think it should be much more challenging to get a gun than it is to get a Zinn. And that's not really the case here. So to me, I just think that it starts there. Like I would personally be open to like much, you know, much more significant gun reforms than that. But I think that like the point of this dialogue is I feel like we've stopped talking about it. I feel like people have given up. You know, I mean, like, there's a lot of movement towards, like, here's one example. After Parkland, there was a movement towards red flag laws and Rick Scott, the current Republican senator from Florida, signed it. A red flag law in Florida, which is totally common sense Bill, they're repealing that now in Florida, they've gone backwards. Republicans have essentially just shut down any debate around this where it's just like, no, we are not open for any discussion. And I just think that if you look at the results of how we live in this country and the amount of gun deaths we have in this country compared to peer countries, I think it's a moral outrage and it's shocking that like we can't have, you know, that we can't open back up the conversation about where, where to meet on gun legislation.
- [31:01]
B
No, I agree with you. It does seem like the conversation has halted. There's almost like a sense that the, the line's not going to move and people just sort of have chosen their side on this issue. You know, you brought up kind of this idea of red flag laws. Somebody later on in the, this prompt or in this claim kind of made the argument look like we're already in this situation that there are guns everywhere in the US Millions and millions of people own them. And so we can't really go back. We got to find a way forward other than like red flag flag laws. Do you think there's other kind of creative approaches that should be considered to reduce gun violence? You know, now that we just kind of have to face the fact that.
- [31:40]
A
It'S like the only issue in which we do this. It's like there's so many guns here, I guess we just have to give up. People have to die now. I don't know, like there are so many cars in this country and there are a lot of car deaths. You know what we've done, we figured out a ton of ways to make driving a lot safer now than it used to be. And shoot, who knows, as we go to the next five, 10 years, you get to self driving cars, we might be able to eliminate a lot of these deaths altogether. Right. It's like drugs. It's like nobody, none of the people in that circle would be like, well, you know, they're already gonna be building the cocaine and the fentanyl and so there's nothing we can do about it. Right. There's nothing we can do, people. So I just sort of reject the whole notion. I mean, I think that they've tried gun buybacks in other countries that are voluntary. That I think that is a worthwhile step. Like, why not? As long as it's voluntary, why wouldn't we want to do that? I'm personally. This would not resolve kind of the preponderance of deaths in this country, which are handgun deaths, but maybe some of these really traumatic mass shooting events. I think that there should be limits on magazine capacities again. So I don't, you know, it's hard for me to understand the reading of the Second Amendment to mean that, like, you have to be able to have an unlimited amount of bullets, right? Like, you have to be able to have a high capacity magazine that has 15 bullets in it that you can, you know, fire off 15 shots before you have to reload again. Like, I don't, I don't see any reason to think that, like, that, that, you know, should be interpreted. Why buying. Like, he brought the Charlie Kirk example, but the kid that went to kill Trump and failed, you know, he stopped at a store and bought the bullets on the way. Why is that? Like, why do we have that? Like, shouldn't, shouldn't there be a waiting period? Like, should you be able, like, if you're like a hunter and you, you know, there's, I'm sure we could come up with some rules around this where, you know, just like you have to get a license to go fishing, you can go to the, you know, registered, you know, place and they can then have a certain amount of bullets that you're gonna need to go, you know, hunting for deer or whatever. But like, to be in a, to be in the suburbs and be able to go to a big box store and order 30 bullets, like, why is that legal? How is that part of the Second Amendment? So anyway, I just, I do think that there are things that are possible here. I don't think that there's a mandate for people under 21 being able to access weapons legally or carry them even legally. I've been pushing Democrats to run on that. I think that's a good starting spot for this issue. So those are the things that come to mind.
- [34:16]
B
Yeah. As someone who's formerly conservative, do you have any kind of theory of why is this issue so precious to conservatives on the right? Why is. There's something unique about this one?
- [34:31]
A
It is a tough one for me because it's like the one it's the issue I've moved the most on. It's why I picked the prompt. I just, I don't, I don't know. Like, it's affected my life. Like, I grew up right by Columbine. I had friends at Columbine. And, and I don't. I think that at some level there's a cultural element of it for sure, but I do think that's overstated to a certain degree. Right. Like, I just, like, sure, I understand that for some people there is. You take the kid hunting, you know, this is part of the family tradition. There isn't really a cultural family tradition around AR15s. It's a pretty new phenomenon to have an AR15 in the house and have a bunch of them. I think that that is meaningfully different. And so to me, what that says is like, I think a lot of conservatives would tell you it's about, you know, city versus rural cultural traditions, but I think a lot of it is about, you know, individualism, being anti government, giving a big fu to the left. And I think a lot about how this guy Rich Lowry writes for National Review, wrote that, like, even for people who didn't like Trump on the right, a lot of them saw him as a big middle finger to the people they didn't like. I think going out and Getting a couple AR15s is a big middle finger to the people that you don't like. It's like a statement of individualism. It's a statement of, you know, I, I'm not going to be bossed around by these whatever liberal elites. And I think that's, again, I'm painting with a broad brush. Right. Like, there, obviously there are some people for whom guns are big. Like, you know, hunting is a big part of their family tradition. But I think that the latter is as big, if not more of a part of it.
- [36:14]
B
Yeah, it's definitely been kind of ingrained in like, kind of like the meme culture that we have, you know, like Trump, like the memes of Trump standing with like an eagle and kind of a gun in his hand. And yeah, it's, it is kind of unique that just, there's something about this.
- [36:29]
A
Issue this week on scene, on the.
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B
Screen, Hugh Jackman, obviously Oscar nominated actor. And as much as people love to.
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A
See blades coming out of his knuckles and tearing some people up, like, he, he loves to sing and dance. Yeah, he's a showman. He really is.
- [36:45]
B
Some have called him the greatest showman girl. Join me, Jacqueline Coley. As I meet the filmmakers, actors and industry insiders influencing entertainment.
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A
Each episode, guests share their journeys and.
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B
Inspirations and answer trivia about the movies that shape them.
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A
My next guest is Craig Brewer, writer, director and producer of Song Sung Blue. To listen, simply search seen on the screen. Wherever you listen to podcasts, REI Co Op presents a perfect outdoor moment with the perfect gift. Picture this your ritual with your favorite person. Bluebird skies, blower powder, and frankly, you're skiing like legends. So sick. Another lap thanks to REI's curation. From lid to sticks. You nailed the gift.
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No way.
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B
That's why the younger you are, the.
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A
More you need AARP.
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B
Learn more at aarp.org skills so the next one. Next clip I want to bring up. Which prompt did you feel more invested in your red state versus blue state?
- [38:22]
A
No, the other one.
- [38:23]
B
The American values.
- [38:24]
A
That was my favorite one.
- [38:25]
B
Oh, okay, great. So I'm gonna pull up a conversation you have with Scott on your American values prompt.
- [38:32]
A
Those liberal values are basically freedom of speech, freedom of religion, pluralism, tolerance. Okay, but where do you get those values? Because when you're saying the Trump administration. Right. I believe the Trump administration actually protects American values. Right, okay. Yeah. Protects the American values of the unborn. Right. Those are things that us as Gen.
- [38:49]
B
Z, we are passionate about.
- [38:50]
A
Right. Because it has killed. Martin just said 28% of us. Abortion has killed 28% of us. Gen Z. So that's something that we're very passionate about. And you can only find that when you find your value as a creator. I mean, we could go back to the Enlightenment. I don't know that we need to do a bunch of John Locke talk here. But, you know, essentially the values that I'm talking about are the ones in the Constitution and the Declaration. As I said, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, rule of law, democracy, pluralism. That is the foundation of what America was founded on. That's what the founders wrote about. You can go read about in the Federalist Papers. But they had those Judeo Christian values that were instilled from the beginning. I hear you, man, but you're trying to make this about faith. And what the founders were explicit about was that this country was not founded based on religion. A lot of them were religious, of course. Yes, we have freedom of religion. Yes, we did have freedom. Excuse me, we have freedom of religion in this country. If you go down that list that we said, whether it's freedom of speech, what is the declaration? Trump is attacking that. Freedom of religion. Trump is attacking that. He's not attacking freedom of religion. How is it freedom of religion? We had a Muslim ban in this country. No, we have never had an actual Muslim ban. That is an insane claim. By yesterday. Yes, we did. That is an insane. It had to be overturned by the Supreme Court.
- [40:03]
B
What are you thinking? What are you feeling when you see that back?
- [40:05]
A
Yeah, that was fun. It did have to be overturned by the Supreme Court. You know, look, again, I think it was interesting. And the group with. Was very Christian. Yeah. And there's like. I think that that's like a big part of the young conservative movement. Of course. But you know that it was kind of a blinkered, like, argument about all of this. Right. Like, where if. Or if you're going to focus, you know, solely on that notion where he was obviously going, which I could see of this, like, oh, this is a Judeo Christian country. You know, we should have Christian values. Like, I just. I think that that's a wrong. Understand. I don't think I know that that's a wrong understanding of what the American values are like. Sure. Like, the founders were Judeo Christian, but they specifically founded the country based on the ability for people to express their religion freely and to be unreligious. There were several of them that were not very religious at all and that they were leaving a place or places where, like, religion was forced upon them. Right. And so, you know, we ended up kind of being able to expand that argument out a little bit more. A lot of pro life talk, like, the Muslim ban argument is kind of like this, like, arguing on a, you know, on a technicality that, like, it never, like the Muslim ban itself never actually went in place. It was like, Trump tried to do a Muslim ban, and then the Supreme Court overturned it, and then they went back with, like, a tailored version of it that was like, okay, well, we're gonna ban people from Muslim countries and North Korea, by the way. Just, we'll throw that one in there. So it's not a Muslim ban anymore, but it's the same thing. And so, you know, and that is an argument on a technicality. But. And I would say now that you can see, like, a number of areas where these guys have been attacking, like, these fundamental American values. And we get into it a little bit.
- [41:53]
B
Yeah, no, you're definitely right. There's a lot of, like, Christian advocacy, and there was just more of a Christian flavor to the circle in this episode. And that was. That was definitely buttressing a lot of their arguments. Something, though, that I. We see it come up on the Internet. Like, you spend time on X and it's. You just get kind of showered with these kinds of posts about Judeo Christian values and the west and how Islam is incompatible with that. And, you know, there's even people left of center, you know, like. Like Sam Harris, who have really strong views on this where, you know, what's your reaction to kind of like that. That argument that there's something about Western values or American values that are, like, you know, inherently tied to Judeo Christian values.
- [42:41]
A
Yeah, I don't. I mean, look, I don't want this country to be a Sharia law country. I think that that would be in conflict with American values. Sure. And I think to the extent that people want to move to this country and. And force their religion upon other Americans, I would be opposed to that. I just, like, that was like a big panic in the 2000s. Right. So, like, Sharia law was coming to America. And I'm not really seeing that. I'm seeing a lot of examples now of a backlash where you have people in red states in particular, that are forcing Christian theology. In a lot of cases, they're kind of warped interpretation of Christian theology onto kids in public schools. And I just don't think that's what this country is all about. And when I. The extent that I agree with them, as I mentioned at the beginning of that clip. Sure. Like, I'm for the West. That's, you know, that's why I'm a liberal. I'm for Lockean traditional classical liberal values. Those classical liberal values, which I just listed all off for him, are not compatible with people that are trying to say that, like, this should be a, you know, Catholic integralist country or a Christian nationalist theocracy. Like, that is not. Those are not the Enlightenment ideas that have allowed the west to flourish. So, you know, to the extent that, like, you want to say that, oh, it was a lot of, like, I have a lot of pride in the, you know, Judeo Christians that, like, you know, were the leaders of the country that instituted these values and that these values have been successful and that, you know, allowed us to, you know, to prosper and flourish and have freedom in a way that people have it in other parts of the world. Like, I agree with that, but I think it's a warped translation of that to say that, okay, what that means is that we need to impose specific interpretations of Christian doctrine onto other people.
- [44:51]
B
Yeah. And I think the tricky thing with religion is religion is both ideas and people. And so when we talk sweepingly about whether it's Christianity or Islam and whether that is a problem, you know, it's hard to make the distinction between, are we talking about groups of people right now? Are we just talking about, like, the ideas baked into that religion? So it does. We do seem to continue to get stuck there.
- [45:18]
A
Well, also, like, what are the interpretations? Again, it's like, it's all. It's generally conservative people. It's like, we have two pretty liberal popes to a certain extent, and they might not be liberal on a couple of issues, like about abortion or, you know, a couple of other issues, but like, on issues of immigration, on issues of being welcoming to the stranger of public services, I had two pretty woke popes in a row. And so it's like, okay, well, you're telling me that it is that it'd be one thing to say, okay, we should try to ground ourselves in the Judeo Christian tradition and try to think about. Have open dialogue and debate about what that means. That's another thing to be like, no, that means that I'm going to enforce my interpretation of this religion upon you, and that that interpretation is one that has a ton of dissent within the Christian community. You know, whether it be, you know, from more kind of liberal Protestant churches or from, you know, our recent two popes.
- [46:23]
B
Yeah, well, as someone with a very Catholic family, the popes have been woke, but there's been some unrest.
- [46:33]
A
Oh, no, dude. The Catholic world is crazy right now. And you think that there is polarization in our politics and what's happening in Catholic church politics. I also grew up Catholic. What's happening behind the scenes with the priest politics? I mean, the knives are out. Not literally, but on the two factions within the church, and so whatever. Okay. The point that I was making, that word that I keep coming back to of pluralism, is in our society, in a Western society, that means that you need to be able to live side by side with people who you passionately disagree with, who you think are even people who you think are bastardizing your religion in this country, what it means to practice American Value is to say, they will be my neighbor and I will, you know, go and we will be in community together, and we will argue about that in the public square. Like, what they seem to be wanting to take us back to is the west, part of the west that was before the Enlightenment, where they killed each other if they disagreed over their religion or where one interpretation had to dominate the other interpretation in the, in the, in the government. And, like, that's not what I'm. That's not what I'm about. That's not what the founders were about.
- [47:50]
B
Yeah, no, I appreciate you digging into that.
- [47:52]
A
All right.
- [47:53]
B
The last, last clip I want to pull up before I let you go. So you, you called back Micah to the center. So Micah, you were having the debate with him about guns, and then he brought up, you know, abortion really was like a thread throughout this episode. And so his claim was about abortion and kind of the. The morality of it. So I'm going to share that clip and we'll react.
- [48:16]
A
Abortion is a grave moral evil from the moment of conception. I guess I would disagree with you. Yeah. But I think that that abortion reaches a point where it is a grave moral evil. And I would agree with you on that. I think it's something that I fall on a disparate side with a lot of people on the left on where. I'm curious where you put the line. You know, I think that's. I think it's kind of complicated, but I'm pretty compelled by arguments related to the heartbeat. And I'll tell you this. So I adopted my child. I've been. We had a couple of adoptions that went south where I went and sat with mothers that were trying to make this hard choice what to do, whether to have their child or whether to terminate the pregnancy, whether to parent the child, whether to give the child up for adoption. And so I get to sit there with them in the hospital room where you can, you know, look at the monitor. You can see the heartbeat, you can see the little fingers. And in those rooms, like, you can feel a grave moral weight. Like, you can just feel it. Like, you can feel that the decision is a big decision. Yeah. I think that, you know, when you get into now the nitty gritty of, like, how the government remediates, like, I think that there are different questions, different. This is obviously a really important thing, just given the numbers. Right. And so I think someone said earlier, it's almost like a third of Gen Z is not here because of abortion. And so whether, you know, where we Put the line is actually a huge thing that we need to get right on because human rights, right. The right to life is at stake.
- [49:55]
B
And so I think this is something very important that, that we need to think about. So I really appreciated you kind of digging into your own story. And as I was listening to you, I was like, I don't know if I've heard someone who I kind of with the connotation of left or liberal speak this openly about the nuances of abortion. Has your comfort level kind of talking about this issue evolved just as, as, like, political correctness has changed?
- [50:26]
A
Yeah, I don't. I mean, I'm pretty comfortable talking about it. I don't. Like, it's sort of like Israel, Palestine, where it's got. It's like the hardest issue to talk about because it's like, everybody has such a strong view on it, who cares about it, and they have a maximalist view on it. And in both cases, like, I'm pretty. In the. I. I have a pretty nuanced take of on both cases. So I, you know, I was kind of. I was gonna pick J.P. and I was. I was kind of wondering what he was gonna ask me when he brought up the abortion question, because I was like, second. I want a second pass at which guy, which person to pick here. Because, look, I'm happy to talk about it. I just. In a debate show setting, it's kind of a weird one for me to pick because it's like, I'm not a maximalist on abortion. I think that there should be limits to when you can have elective abortions. I think that. I do believe that. And you know that at some point you're dealing with an unborn life. And I do believe also that, like, the mother's life is a life that has to be respected as well. And that's why this is so hard. Right? Because, like, you are dealing with two lives. And I feel like on both sides, somebody wants to just pretend like one life doesn't matter. Right? Like, and they're like, you know, the guy that I'm debating is, like, really only focused on the life of the baby in the womb. And anytime I tried to bring up later, you know, about the questions of how to respect the life and the dignity of the person that is carrying the baby and that needs to and that they have basic rights as a human as well, that the government can't infringe upon and we should support them as a society if we're pro life. He didn't want to talk about that he always kept coming back to the baby. And I feel like if I was debating somebody on a pro choice activist, they would only want to talk about the mother. And, and anytime you talk about the baby's life, kind of pretend like that's not true. Like it's a fetus, it's not really a life, that it's not really something else to be considered. And I just, I don't think that's true. And so it gets much more murky and complicated once you say, like, okay, well there are two lives that you're dealing with. And now we have a government that has to create a rule, some structure, some laws that is respectful of both and that doesn't infringe on either. And that's like very challenging. And so he's like, where do you draw the line? It's like, well, we have to kind of decide that as a society is the answer. Like, I'm not God, I can't decide it. We have to decide as a society what is a reasonable period of time. A lot of societies deal with this. And up until recently, I guess Europe was much more strict than we were on this, despite being more left than us and a lot of other issues. Like, that's changing a lot in this country. I think there's some crazy right wing laws around this. Like Texas has a five week abortion ban and now you can have a bounty where you can sue the mom if they have an abortion after five. Like, I think a lot, like, I think a lot of that stuff is insane and extreme. And so, you know, in some ways I think we keep coming back, I keep coming back to this like, definition of me as a liberal because it's like that is like kind of in my view, like the redefinition of what like liberal means in our society, society right now. It's like you can live in those complications. Like, we can debate them, we can try to work them out. We can, we have, we have a law and a structure that does. So we can try to respect the basic fundamental rights of everybody involved. You know, I just think a lot of people in our debate don't want to do that right now because they have such strident views on, on the issue. And so it makes it to be, it makes, it kind of makes it a tough one to debate. I was like a much stronger ground debating about Trump being morally vacuous than I was here. But I'm happy to work it out with people and in some ways, I think kind of surprised some of them and who knows maybe it gives me more credibility with some people on the right to hear from somebody that is at least grappling with it rather than just shouting past them.
- [54:30]
B
Yeah, no, I think what's interesting about kind of the issues we dug into, you know, like the border guns, abortion, there really is, I mean, I feel like there really is an opportunity for future voices to who want to capture kind of the middle and who want to capture or reinspire the left to have more nuanced views on these issues because, you know, you made the case and throughout the episode and I think it just became, became clear that a lot of people are really craving more of a nuanced view on, on these issues. The, the maximalist approach appeals to some, but it doesn't appeal to, I think, the majority. But there's a lot of argument around that.
- [55:13]
A
And I don't know, but that's maybe, maybe, or maybe we're lonely roadkill in the middle and that's okay too. I don't know. All I can do is say what I think.
- [55:22]
B
Yeah. Do you have, I just have to ask, is there anybody, if you had to throw a hat in the ring for kind of like the future voice of the Democrats, is there somebody who you favor particularly right now?
- [55:35]
A
You know, I don't. And here's, and I, and I, here's what I want. And to the extent that I have any influence over where the left goes, this is what I'm going to say a lot over the next two years, which is I want there to be a bunch of Democrats to try a different, a lot of different things. I think that this goes to our seat. I think we've become so rigid. And I have a specific view like, look, I'm a former Republican. I'm going to have more sympathy to capitalism than a lot of people on the left are. I'm obviously usually just solid can be more moderate on abortion than a lot on the left are. I'm open to. No candidate's ever going to agree with me. Somebody that ran on my platform would get killed. So I'm not looking for something to be exactly like me. What I want is for people on the left to try new things, to have interesting ideas, to be heterodox, to not just like sing from the same hymn book that we've seen, which is just like either just down the line, Bernie Progressivism or this kind of tepid like center left establishment woke liberalism. I just, I don't, I want, I think that it's, I think that the country is desperate for somebody who offers kind of a different fresh path, I think a lot of people are really beaten down by all this that we've had for the last decade. And if you look at Obama in eight and Trump in 16, like both of them were very different from what came before. Like Obama attacks hard left on the wars and. But then also, you know, is kind of a, you know, does this. There are no red states, there are no blue states. Like, I'm moderate in tone and temperament, but I'm really, you know, against the wars and I'm for reforms. And he didn't sound very much like John Kerry or Al Gore. Like he was a, you know, he was within the same band of views, but like he took some very different approaches. And then Trump obviously just like shits on the old Republican establishment. So it's like I'm. He also goes left on the wars and he goes left on spending on Social Security and Medicare and then he goes hard right on immigration and crime. Right. And I want Democrats to try that. And like right now, what I'm seeing out there, which is why I'm reluctant to give a name, is a lot of Democrats who are like either carrying the banner for Clinton, Biden, heresism, or carrying the banner for Bernieism. And both those things are fine. They both have their benefits and their, you know, their things that are holding them back. But I'd like to, I'd like to encourage people to try different things and see if something catches and, and connects with people in a different way. So that's where I'm at. Nice.
- [58:13]
B
Well, Tim, it was fantastic meeting you and on behalf of Jubilee, thanks for jumping into the arena. Thanks for your time and have a great holiday.
- [58:21]
A
Cool, man, happy to do it. Invite me back. I had so much fun. Like I got out of there and I said to everybody, I want to do it again. I want to do it again like tomorrow I a blast doing it, so anytime.
- [58:30]
B
Cool. Well, I definitely want to see you on the channel again soon, so we'll make it happen.
- [58:34]
A
All right. Later man.
- [58:35]
B
See ya. If you want to see more follow up episodes of Surrounded, be sure to like leave us a positive review.
- [58:41]
A
Comment.
- [58:42]
B
If you're watching the video on YouTube, you can subscribe to Tubal Jubilee second channel. You can also subscribe to Jubilee to see full Surrounded episodes. But however you want to support us, just thank you so much for watching, listening. Remember, you could be wrong, so could I. Keep your mind open until next time.
- [58:59]
A
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because Right.
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Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
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