← Surrounded
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- [00:00]
A
If I had come in swinging or if I had come in like, all right, conservatives, let's put you in pocket, you redneck hillbilly morons, then it would have been a disaster. It would have been a disaster.
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B
From Jubilee Media, this is the Surrounded podcast. I'm John Regolato and this is our first follow up episode. I will be interviewing Xander. He was at the center of last week's episode of surrounded. He debated 25 conservatives focused on LGBTQ issues. And I will be asking Xander what the experience was like from his perspective. And we'll be digging into some of the most heated and interesting moments of debate throughout the episode. So let's get into it. Xander, thank you for being here.
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A
John, thank you for having me.
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B
So you're. This is the first official follow up, which is. Yeah, this is a new debut. So, yeah, the intention of this pod is trying to get to a human level and finding a comfortable way to hold disagreements. And yeah, you, you definitely gave that your all. In the episode of Surrounded you were in, which I've watched, you haven't seen the footage yet. You don't know what the comments are going to be. It's going to be pretty heated and intense. But I'm curious, like, how you feel about the experience and just like, what, how it's sitting with you right now.
- [01:39]
A
Yeah, it was a really interesting experience and it was obviously intense, but it was also really enlightening. These conversations are conversations I have every single day at Sea alliance. And so I was very prepared to deal with that type of opposition and that type of emotion. And I think what I wasn't expecting was people being so vulnerable and being so willing to talk after the conversation and have aha moments and make concessions or just move on some of the issues.
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B
There's some people who are going to appear on the show that people already know, you know, such as Ben Shapiro. You were admittedly like a new face, a new name to me.
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A
Yeah.
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B
How did you get into this work?
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A
Yeah, I'm Florida grown. I grew up in Sarasota. I have been organizing since I was 15. I founded Sea alliance, or Social Equity Through Education alliance, as a club at my high school. It was really focused on how do young people, how do students get a better grip into and control over local politics. We were kicked off of campus very quickly, which checks out, and we decided, okay, we're either going to disband or we're going to pivot and we're going to become something new. And we decided to become a community organization. And what we found is that school boards are the best place to build power. They're winnable, they center young people, and they result in electoral gains in all other levels of government, too. And so by starting in a school board, creating momentum in a school board, winning in a school board, you're setting the path to do so up the ballot. And we started having a lot of success and we started winning and we started making really powerful relationships. And so things just really spiraled up and the momentum has kept going.
- [03:21]
B
Did you grow up, like, in a political family because you're good at this, you're good at politics, and it seems like you're very passionate about it. And I'm curious, where did this spark come from?
- [03:33]
A
No, I did not grow up in a political family. Both of my parents work in mouths. There's a dentist and an orthodontist shout out to you. Interesting. They are not politically involved. But I also wouldn't say I'm particularly interested in politics as much as I'm required to be. The idea of politics itself doesn't attract me. But the policy that is devoured within politics and the way people's lives are shaped by it is so fundamental to everything that is just essential to get into it and to think about it.
- [04:04]
B
Had you seen the show before Jubilee reached out?
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A
Yes, I had. I had seen some clips on TikTok and I had ended up watching the Michael knowles1 on YouTube. You're not really married. You. You have a relationship with a man. I understand you're not really married.
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B
I understand that you think that and that's fine. And did you have any feelings or frustrations or positive like, I'm just curious what your impression was of the show.
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A
Yeah, I had lots of feelings. I thought a lot of the conversations were really incredible. And I think it was really clear to me that a lot of people arrive with the intention of having a viral one liner or having a gotcha moment and less of an aha moment and more of a destruction and less of a realization. And I thought that was unfortunate. But I also think that it's just important to have these conversations and for people to see that clash of perspective. And so, all in all, I still thought the series has been productive. I just wish that people would show up more with, okay, how do we be vulnerable in this space? How do we try to have a productive conversation?
- [05:09]
B
Yeah, you're right. It can devolve into political porn. It. It can become a format that platforms an opinion and a worldview that a viewer believes is harmful. But I think something when I worked at Jubilee, and as I continue to work with Jubilee, there really is a true intention to try and meet the world where it's at. And I hear you saying that, you know, to a certain extent, we are at this moment. We're at this moment where there's a wide range of values and ideas that we can choose from. And I think this format kind of reflects the tension that can erupt from that. And I want to dig into some of the characters and specific arguments you had while we talk. I'm going to do my best to steel man some of the arguments from the characters that you talk to and see if I can kind of if we can get to interesting places, if I sort of steel man what they were trying to convey to you and what you guys disagreed on.
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A
Okay, great.
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B
Your first claim was Elon Musk and Trump do more grooming than, like, the LGBTQ community does.
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A
Yeah.
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B
The first character that I saw you interact with was Michael.
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A
Okay.
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B
I understand what you're saying.
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A
For the sake of the argument, I
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B
would say that I agree to an extent. Right.
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A
Obviously, it depends on what we. What we're. What's grooming?
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B
Right.
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A
Well, let's define grooming. Yeah. So typically, what would you define grooming as? So typically in, I mean, most political circles. Right.
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B
They would say grooming is any kind
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A
of act that kind of leads to,
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B
like, a sexual act.
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A
That's sexual grooming. Grooming also works with terrorist organizations and cults. Yes. So I would say that grooming has a broad definition, but I would say
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B
that grooming is not intrinsic or exclusive to the political right.
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A
Right.
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B
Grooming is.
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A
No, it's not. It's something that happens everywhere it happens.
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B
Democrats do it, Republicans do it.
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A
Right. It was very easy to get everyone to agree on the shared definition of grooming. People with influence using that influence to take advantage of or change the way a young person thinks. If we actually just take that definition at its face value and process what that means. Donald Trump and Elon Musk are doing that more than anyone else in the country. And I also phrase it that way just to show that, like, I'm sure there are some LGBTQ plus people that are groomers, but they are groomers because they're bad people, and they're groomers because they're pedophiles. Not. But not because they're LGBTQ plus.
- [07:37]
B
I actually thought it was kind of interesting that you. You trying to kind of flip the script, because I think an argument against the advancement of LGBTQ or Queer identity and rights and cultural representation is that it's not good for young people. And so you're trying to kind of flip it and be like, well, actually, I think Elon and Trump are not good for young people. And I thought that was interesting. Am I kind of interpreting like, that, that claim in the way that you meant for it?
- [08:10]
A
Yeah, I think a more so than anybody else, and this is proven by so many different studies, are changing the way young people think and behave. And I deeply believe they're doing it for a selfish interest. And I believe it is harmful to the young people. And so we think about what grooming is. It's trying to take advantage of young people for your own personal benefit. And here it's more political than sexual. But I thought it was a really
- [08:33]
B
important comparison, an unfortunate truth to what you're saying. And this just seems to be, I think, a condition of, like, this moment that we live in, especially because of phones. Young people really are the currency of culture. I mean, people are the currency of culture, and young people are just especially influential and impressionable right now. And so whether it's MAGA or dark MAGA or, you know, I think liberal values, like, you're seeing young people pick that up through social media. But there was a disagreement that you had with Michael just for a moment, where, I mean, I think he said, like, the LGBTQ community is organized and you guys have an agenda. And you pushed back on that. You were like, we don't have agenda. There's no agenda.
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A
What you're actually trying to say is
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B
that the agenda that LGBT actors, There is no agenda.
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A
Everyone has an agenda.
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B
It doesn't matter.
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A
Well, of the LGBTQ activists make it sound like there's a coordinated agenda, when in reality, there's a bunch of people. If you're organized, if you're organized, group, you have an agenda. We're not organized, I promise. We're disorganized. Okay. Yeah. I think it's just important to note that the queer and trans community is not the Illuminati, and we don't meet underground once a season and convenience fire and place people in positions of power and decide, okay, we're all going to start saying this. We're going to start doing this. We're going to contact HBO and make them push this. Like, that is not happening. I think. And I. I think it's just important to unpack that, because people do genuinely believe that there are punch cards, and it's like, it is a membership. It is being queer and trans is A political movement. And our attempt is to change the political structure of the United States of America. And in reality, that's just not true. Identity has been politicized, and therefore it has to come forward in politics. Either queer and trans people stick up for themselves and say, no, I deserve and demand civil rights, or we don't get them. And now, because we've been forced into this political situation because of an identity that is not inherently political, it's politicized.
- [10:36]
B
I think I totally understand what you're saying. Like, you're not. You're not a card holding queer. You know, like, that doesn't. That's not a thing. And I think that makes sense. I think on the flip side, I can see what Michael's saying, though, is like, there are organizations that have political methods and goals to further the rights of the LGBTQ community. And so at the end of the day, I think it is just a reality. And so I could see somebody hearing you say, we're not organized, we're not a political movement, as you denying a reality. And so there was a little bit of this dissonance I saw with you and Michael.
- [11:22]
A
Yeah. And I think there are political groups that advocate. But if I were to say, oh, all dolphins have an agenda, because there are conservation organizations, that wouldn't be genuine either and that wouldn't be based in reality. I think. I don't. I don't know all of the Human Rights Campaign's political platform. And so to say that they are leading a political movement for all queer and trans people or GLSEN is doing that or someone is doing that isn't genuine. And that is a political perception that is held is that there is a large scale coordinated movement for all queer and trans people.
- [11:55]
B
You're gay. Right. You identify as gay. And I guess I'm curious, when did you know that and when did you feel this political valence placed on that identity?
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A
I feel like I realized late in the game. It may have been 14, 15. I'm not sure, I don't totally remember, but it was definitely later. And I immediately felt the politicization. I think that I didn't consider that I was gay for such a long time because I was so worried about that politicization. I grew up in Sarasota, Florida, super red area. Most of my friends casually tossed around homophobic rhetoric all the time. I didn't think twice about it. I was just like, of course people are gonna say something is gay if it's not cool, duh. And just stuff like that. And Then when I realized, oh, you are totally gay, I was like, oh, my God, this is going to be the worst. This is going to suck. People are going to be so nasty. I have no interest in this. And so I tried so hard. I was like, you know what? Let's. Let's talk to Jesus. Let's. Let's watch a movie with straight people kissing. Let's lock in. Let's not be gay. And I was like, okay, well, that didn't work. I'm gay now. What? And I think it. My. My first part about being gay was like, I am. There's no way in hell I'm letting my life be defined by this or be constricted by this.
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B
So there's an interesting, you know, like, contradiction even in that, you know, not wanting it to define your life, but then realizing that there was political action that you wanted to see done, you know, did redefine your life.
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A
Yeah. I'm also incredibly proud to be gay. And I think in the first moments, there was never a hatred of gay people. I just. I recognize because I witnessed it already. This will make my life unnecessarily challenging. If I can avoid that, I'm going to. And then I realized, okay, this is not avoidable. We're locked into being gay. It was. It was literally such a simple process of Googling and reckoning, and I was
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B
just like, okay, okay, yeah, no, I appreciate you kind of peeling that back. Okay, so pivoting back to the conversation,
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A
let me tell you what's going on. The LGBTQ community has gone too far.
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B
How?
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A
Okay, so I'm an ex Democrat. I used to live in San Francisco, actually. Same. Yeah, yeah.
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B
So, yeah, his name was Roman, and you guys kind of got. There was some disagreement around pride.
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A
Gay pride is everyone making out and having sex on the street. No, it's not. That's illegal. I was there. That's illegal. That's illegal. The vast majority of Pride events, we're
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B
talking about San Francisco here.
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A
Okay? San Francisco's extra gay, but the vast majority of pride of it extra sexualized. It's a European. Gay. Is not inherently sexual. San Francisco is a European city. San Francisco's in the United States. States of America. Come on now. Yeah. It's not a European city.
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B
It's the gay capital. And now that that has gone everywhere,
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A
all over, I would say weho is the gay capital. Shout out. We hope. No.
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B
Yes, we do.
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A
Watching people try to characterize all of pride as being guys dancing around in leather thongs with their balls hanging out I was like, oh, my God. First of all, like, go to Mardi Gras, dude. Like, I promise you, this is not the only place drunk adults in the street are not keeping it. 100 like that. That's the common denominator. The common denominator is drunk adults outside, not gay people.
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B
Well, and he was like, yeah, I like going to Pride because there's also straight women there. I'm straight. I want to see the women. I thought that was actually really funny.
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A
It was so funny. I went to Gay Pride and it was fun.
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B
You know, there's girls there, there's straight women.
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A
So obviously, that's awesome.
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B
Where I can. I think Steel Man Roman is just in the algorithm, the algorithmic experience of what someone sees of a Pride parade when they don't attend one. And so, like, I've been to Pride parades. I have also been scrolling through X and seeing pretty intense stuff from, like, San Francisco Pride. And it just makes sense that on the Internet, that kind of material is going to. It's just going to get distributed a lot more. How important is it to start enforcing, you know, enforcing or communicating a standard around what is a good expression of pride and when is it kind of hurting the movement?
- [16:22]
A
Well, I think there's layers to it, because, one, I wouldn't say that Pride is a unified movement. There's not a president, there's not a CEO of Pride. Pride is a word that needs to be proud. And I think that there just needs to be a better organization. Like, these Pride parades aren't coming from the Illuminati. They're coming from local Pride networks and local organizations and local GLSEN chapters. And so it's up to those individuals and those local organizations to better organize their Pride. And so for San Francisco Pride organizers, I would be like, oh, my gosh. Let's be very clear about where the family. Let's be very clear about where and when the family friendly programming is happening. Let's be very clear about where and when you can have your balls out. And then let's communicate that widely so that there isn't a PR crisis. Of course, the algorithm is going to reward the most shocking, disgusting, sexual, exciting visuals all the time. The videos of families dancing in the street blowing bubbles. That's not going viral. The video of the bald, hairy dude in a jock strap running down, like, with his tongue out. That's going to go viral for people who feel like their children under attack. And so that's not a responsibility of human beings. That is a reality of being online and it's more about how we monitor ourselves online, show up online, process information online. That's the issue we need to address. Than the bald man who probably wasn't doing anything wrong if it was at the adult portion.
- [17:42]
B
Right. No, I hear what you're saying, and I think that's unfortunate. That is just sort of a symptom of the media ecosystem we have right now is just the outliers do characterize the whole. And that's probably not the healthiest thing. I want to talk about your conversation with Richie. You debated him after your second claim, which was healthcare costs and gun violence harm young Americans. LGBTQ acceptance does not.
- [18:08]
A
Hi. Hi. I just want to make sure I. Can we agree that. Can we agree that our shared value for this debate should be that all young Americans have safe and healthy childhoods? Absolutely. Okay. Beautiful. Yeah, I just want to make sure I heard that right. Young Americans referencing children. Yes. So then I want to switch the focus on what the plus represents. And lgbtq.
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B
He had concerns about the plus alluding to pedophiles or minor attracted. People attracted to minors. He referred to it with acronym maps.
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A
That plus is a placeholder for maps for minor attractive persons. Minor attractive persons. No, it is not. That would be insane. That's pedophilia. I'm glad that you think it's pedophilia in its inside. Well, it's defined as. I think you understand and you know that your side of the aisle does not feel that way.
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B
There's a lot to. To hit on here. But first of all, what. What were your reactions? Is that something you commonly hear where people go, hey, you know, the next thing that you're going to be telling us to include is people who are attracted to minors or pedophiles. Like, why. Why is that something that keeps coming up? This inability to separate sexual orientation among consenting adults and pedophilia.
- [19:21]
A
Aggressive, intentional disinformation and taking advantage of people's fears. Like, there are so many people who make money. Make money because of the algorithms we're talking about, because of the way the most shocking information and material is perpetually rewarded. They make so much money, they're going to keep doing that.
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B
That was something that came through in the video, and I thought you were picking up on it. Like, he was genuinely concerned. And it was like. It was almost like a. There was an urgency and a despair in his tone.
- [19:50]
A
I'm saying things that I know. I believe you've developed and put yourself in this sort of matrix, fictional reality, and you feel Safe there. I'm glad you do. But here's the problem. Where we're headed is why I'm concerned. Where are we headed? I'm not. I'll tell you where we're headed. We're headed towards Maps. Whether or not you agree with that is regardless of what evidence is there that we're headed towards maps. I mean, are you kidding me? Yeah. Even on the conservative side, they're opening up the discussion on whether or not this can be considered a legitimate sexual orientation. No one is saying that pedophilia is a legitimate sexual orientation.
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B
I think what he wanted to hear from you, which I do think you said in a variety of ways, which was just like, I don't support that.
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A
That seemed to be so important for him. I don't think he wasn't misrepresenting what he felt or what he thought or what he was scared of. He genuinely, deeply believed that acceptance for queer and trans people would open up the door for pedophiles to take advantage of children throughout the country.
- [20:45]
B
I don't exactly know why, but there's just, like, a lot of differentiating that needed to happen throughout the whole episode. Like, we're talking about gay people now we're talking about trans people, now you're talking about pedophiles. That's not the same thing. And I, you know, it's just. It's a recurring pattern that comes up when we talk about LGBTQ plus issues, and I've seen it come up in other videos, is like, there's too many. People are lumping too many things together at the same time.
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A
The complexity comes from the fact that being queer, being trans, is not about having sex. It is an identity that is a part of your human being. And for many of us, it changes who we're attracted to and therefore who we'd like to have sex with and who we will have sex with. But it's not about sex in the same way. Being straight isn't about having heterosexual sex all the time or just thinking about sex or being about sex. It is one part of your identity. Being straight isn't just about sex, and marriage isn't just about sex. And wanting to be able to talk about your wife or hold her hand in public isn't just about sex. It's about compassion. Human beings crave the connection to and compassion from other human beings. And so if we're telling a bunch of human beings, hey, you can't have that, of course they're going to fight for that. But if you're Only focused on the sex of it. It's going to become inherently sexual, and some people will show up with an inherently sexual viewpoint. But that was super important to unpack in that moment for me, is like, it's not. Well, about sex.
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B
Well, yeah, it is and it isn't. You know, what you're saying is like, the identity of being gay is not just having gay sex. It's. It's a perspective. It's a lived experience. It's about connecting with people. And sex is a facet of that identity, but it's not the whole identity.
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A
And I think it's. It. It's almost. We do so much study of it, but it's for so many people, so simple, to the point that it's almost ridiculous. For some people, the problem they have with the entire queer and trans community is that man on man, gay sex breaks the patriarchy to them, and it makes men weak. And that fear or lack of understanding or discomfort is enough for them to want to shut everything down for everyone.
- [23:02]
B
And that came up. Sarah was one of the women you spoke to. She. She. It was pretty heated with her. And your debate with Sarah happened in the portion of the episode focused on the claim anti LGBTQ policies are anti Christian and anti American.
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A
You can have consensual sex with someone and that's not loving them because participating in homosexual acts is inherently not loving. Because it's damaging. They're not inherently damaging. It doesn't violate natural law. There are over 1000 species. Your body is not proven to have queer relationships. God literally designed. Why does the G spot exist? I don't know. God literally designed male bodies. Let's pretend to know God's vision. How about this? Let's not pretend to know God's vision. How come 12% of men who have sex with other men one or more times a week have problems where they are not able to control their bowel movements? Because when do you. Well, why? If it's healthy. If it's perfectly healthy.
- [24:02]
B
I'm not going to try and steel man that argument, because I think what this comes down to is just a fundamental way of viewing morality. Sarah's not the only person in the United States who feels this way. And you've acknowledged that. How can America, when we get to, like, these bedrock differences where it's just, like, you just believe that sex should only happen with a man and a woman, and that's, like, really crystallized in your worldview. Where do we move forward when there's that you bump up against that?
- [24:40]
A
I Think it depends on the person that you're speaking with or the group of people you're speaking with, which is why consistent conversation will always be the answer, but there is always a why. For a lot of people it'll be religious teaching. For some people it'll be a connection to their biological understanding. And then for some people, it literally, truly, exclusively is that it feels like a scary visual to them. It feels like, shouldn't that hurt? That's not natural, that's wrong. Therefore all of it is wrong. And it's just about unpacking that person to person, situation to situation, and acknowledging that it can feel like a bedrock issue. But there's always the why. There's always a place that these thoughts come from. Most people have a relationship with. The thoughts are always coming from somewhere. And so you can figure out where they're coming from. You can better address where you're at. And so for Sarah, it came from the church. And eventually, and I don't even think it happened on camera, the conversation did spin into a more productive place about the way we interpret religion. And if I had two months to have that conversation with her, I think there's a chance we end in a place where it's like, okay, I can see how it is not against the Christian worldview to have man on man sex. And over time, I believe that she could separate herself from that really strong opinion. It's just the fact that we get to these places that feel really hard and the only answer is lean into the pure discomfort of the conversation or pull away entirely. Like eventually for some people you're going to have to have a conversation about buttholes. And that is ridiculous. And because you shouldn't have to, and it's so ridiculous, it's almost instinctual. Just be like, oh my, oh my God, I'm not talking about anal sex with you, you fool. And that's a valid reaction, but also to that person. They're going, yeah, of course you don't want to talk about anal sex because it's dirty and you're a freak and you know what you're doing is wrong. And suddenly they walk away vindicated, they walk away validated. They're like, yeah, I don't want to talk about anal sex. And neither today because it's evil. But if you can kind of just lean in and be like, hey, you
- [26:40]
B
said like G spot. Yeah, I was going to bring up the G spot comment.
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A
So again, I don't like reverting to that because it's ridiculous, but it Is like, it, it's no. And I should spark things like it's no.
- [26:51]
B
I. I thought it was a funny response. I see why it's kind of disarming and funny at the same time. Something I'm. And I liked what you said. Like, the thoughts are always coming from somewhere. I think that's a really provocative idea. Like you can always trace the thoughts back to a source and there's always a direction for self discovery. So I think that's really interesting. A question I had for you is like, you know, when you're confronted with confrontation like that, what is going on in your body? What are you feeling in your body? In your head?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Over the course of time, I think,
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A
especially when I started having these conversations in high school, I was having them with people twice my age and I got way more emotionally invested. I would go for the kill shot, the funny line, the haha. Every time, like, I would try to. I was like, what is the most disgusting read? Like, what is the cleanest, brutal takedown that I can provide to this person to show them that they're stupid? And that would be the name of my game for a while. But if the goal is to instead change the way people think about things, that has to be done way less aggressively and way more surgically. And I think that that also doesn't mean just sitting back and being like, oh, I'm sorry, you don't like me. It does mean showing up as someone that they can feel they need to challenge and they can respect, and that is holding their own. And that is at times when you need to be aggressive. But it isn't about being aggressive. It's about trying to challenge the perspective. And I think the fact that they didn't feel like I deeply hated them was so important to this. And there was one moment, I don't know if it'll make it into the cut, but one of the people walking away is like, I hope you don't hate me now. Thank you. Thank you. Hope you don't hate me. And I'm just like, I don't hate you. I don't hate any of. There's too much information for us to all be on the same page. The point is for us to work together to get on the same page, because we're not in the multiverse. There is one reality, there is truth, there are facts there, there just is. And so the closer we can get to acknowledging that together and to living in that together, the better.
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B
One more person.
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A
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- [29:16]
B
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- [29:50]
A
Ask your doctor about eglis and visit ebgliss.lilly.com or call 1-800-LilyRx or 1-800-545-5979.
- [29:57]
B
Your little one grew three inches overnight. Adorable. Also expensive. Sell their pint sized pieces on Depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees because somewhere a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes
- [30:11]
A
his kids will outgrow tomorrow and he's
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B
ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now. Consider your future growth Bird budget secured. Start selling on Depop where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details. I want to talk about and this is kind of the more the most I think this is like the most complex and tricky issue that exists in the zeitgeist right now. This was with Angelina. She was very fixated on children being given gender affirming care too soon and if it's reversible or irreversible.
- [30:50]
A
I think gun violence is an issue and I think healthcare is an issue. However, what I would like to talk about today is children being targeted and transitioned at a young age. I don't believe it is children are being targeted in transition. So currently in the United States you can start gender transitioning a child as early as they're starting puberty and that's anywhere from 8 to 13. And so at that age, you can start putting them on puberty blockers. And. Which is not reversible, by the way. Okay, so how many irreversible gender affirming care procedures have been done on ages 13 or under in the United States of America? Listen, just the idea that you even put them on puberty blockers, that's irreversible. Do you understand that not all puberty blockers are irreversible? Nutrients are coming in every day. So let me break down the. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Puberty blockers. Do you know what puberty blockers are? Puberty blockers is Lupron. That is the brand name for puberty blockers. Lupron. Lupron is used on children 8 to 13 year olds to. To pause their puberty. It is the same drug used to in chemical castration for pedophiles. I thought that 8 to 13. Okay, if I thought 8 to 13 year olds would be chemically castrated, that would be horrible. That would be evil. That would be unacceptable. That's not what's happening. I would love to break it down for you.
- [31:52]
B
This is where I think. I guess my first question is, like, trans issues are taking a ton of oxygen in the political.
- [32:03]
A
Yeah.
- [32:04]
B
Like, arena right now. And I mean, Jubilee does this as well as anybody because we've made a lot of content circling these issues and just keeps coming up and people care a lot about it. Do you ever wonder if it would be better, now that we're in this moment in time where, you know, gay marriage is legal, to start differentiating groups? Like, do you ever worry that, like, the bucketing harms the movement or harms the public? Yeah, why not?
- [32:38]
A
They're attempting to divide us. That is the entire goal. And so if we do that for them, we'd be ridiculous, stupid, and in part, abandoning a part of our community. I think that that is a really disappointing consideration that folks have. I understand where it comes from. I totally get it. Being trans is not the same thing as being gay. And being gay isn't the same thing as being bisexual. And being bisexual isn't the same thing as being non binary. The point is, is because we are persecuted for gender and sex. And so the LGBTQ plus, the queer and trans community really is people who have gender and sex identities that are different than what has typically been celebrated and accepted in the United States of America. And that is point blank it. And to try to further divide that group, like, I don't. I don't See the point, I think, yeah.
- [33:31]
B
I don't know if I would frame it, though, as dividing. I guess I would say, like, okay, that you could interpret it as progress. Like, okay, we're at a moment in time where now, like, a fuller consideration of the gay American experience or the lesbian American experience or the trans American experience can be thought of case by case. Because I think sometimes a lot of confusion is generated where you're like, wait, oh, we're talking about trans kids right now.
- [33:57]
A
Like, while it's a line we've all heard a million times, and therefore we're like, huh, that's trite. When they come for one of us, they come for all of us. And so in actuality, there is so much strength in holding the community. But it's not just a strategic imperative. There are shared identities and shared elements to the queer experience and the trans experience in the United States of America that are bound by culture, by history, by economics, by everything. And to pull them apart, would it make sense?
- [34:27]
B
Well, well, this is where, this is where I think I, I, I want to build on the disagreement that you were having with Angelina, because one. And it also came up with another person.
- [34:39]
A
Wait, because, you know, 13%, what you
- [34:41]
B
stated was 1% was actually 13% of people do detransition.
- [34:45]
A
So to avoid that, no, they could bring up. I'll even show the study on my phone to you right now. Well, I'm sure you have things that say that, but it doesn't make it true. So you're just invalidating stuff that's not true. You're invalidating the entire study.
- [34:56]
B
We got to the point of, like, studies, like science and research and data and, and what is it telling us? And this is where I wonder if delineation is important, because a lot of this science is still new. And so I sometimes wonder if you need to be more granular as something as, like, when puberty blockers should be prescribed and what kind of puberty blockers or what kind of hormonal treatments and why it is or isn't reversible. Like, you're getting so granular that that really is. It's a trans issue. That's not really an anybody. That's not really an LGBTQ issue.
- [35:34]
A
Well, the same way there can be. Like, you can. If I say there are neurodivergent people in the United States, you're not assuming, well, we're giving the same medicine and treatment to people with ADHD as people who have autism. That's not what we're discussing here. That's not the point here. And I'm not saying there aren't programs and organizations and communities and spaces specifically for people who have autism versus adhd. No one's comparing the two. They're not comparable. But because there are shared, overlapping, constructed, evolving circumstances and relationships that being neurodivergent means that people have in the United States of America, that term exists and like there's an understanding.
- [36:15]
B
So there's a time where we're talking about neurodivergence.
- [36:17]
A
There's a time, there's times all the. Like boxing the community in Tupperware and then labeling it is not going to help people process what's going on or become less hateful. It's doing exactly what they like. And it's because they would like to characterize the community as a political movement that they want to pull it apart and say, well, this agenda doesn't align with this agenda and this medical care is different than this medical care.
- [36:39]
B
But I suspect because, you know, there's the whole Donald Trump ad campaign. He's for they themselves or she's Kamala's for they them. Trump's for you or us or whatever. I can't remember the. But you know what I'm talking about.
- [36:54]
A
Yeah. One third of their ad spend, my
- [36:57]
B
guesstimation is that the majority of Americans have. They think that trans people should be allowed to do whatever they want. And by trans people, I mean trans adults. I think where every, a lot of the people who swing between parties get concerned and get antsy is around what is the right way to approach people experiencing gender dysphoria as minors, trans youth. However, whatever the right way is to label that experience and that population. And there's a lot of disagreement there. And there was a lot of disagreement in the episode about what is scientific consensus now. And you were very confident in citing the organizations and the studies that you see as supporting your perspective. But I guess I'm curious, you know, do you think the ink is dry on the science there or do you think.
- [37:53]
A
I don't think ink is ever dry.
- [37:55]
B
Justification for, for, for caution and, and nuance. Once we get to minors, all of
- [38:02]
A
the science is saying we need to be cautious when it comes to minors. I don't the ink is ever dry. What I will say is that every major, every respected medical organization on planet agrees that gender affirming care for young people is not only appropriate in certain circumstances, but it is life saving and to look for really niche studies that have been poorly done, funded by very questionable people. And are not peer reviewed as competing evidence for what is the closest to medical consensus you can arrive at in modern history isn't genuine. It doesn't make sense. It's not real. And the arguments, and that's why I, a lot of times I'd be like, what you're saying isn't happening. And they're like, well, it has happened once, so now I know you're lying. And it's just like, I'm not saying, I'm not saying things have never happened before. I'm saying the situation you're characterizing and what you're trying to get me to admit to is happening isn't happening. The way you're putting it, what you're concerned about, what you're saying, what you're promoting in this conversation isn't happening.
- [39:00]
B
And I saw that, I saw that come up a lot though, where it was like you're saying, you were like, no, it's not happening everywhere the way you're suggesting. But they're saying, but it has happened. And both of those are true, but like they're very different ways of looking at reality and characterizing it.
- [39:19]
A
Yeah. And again, I think it's about being genuine about it. Are we. What is the intention of you bringing. Because it's really like you have to put your blinkers on and go full tunnel vision through the information to get to the places they're going without reading a hundred thousand sources that are going to challenge their viewpoint, explain why the source that they're about to cite isn't correct, and then give them new information to consider instead. But the people who cited evidence in this conversation didn't do that. They didn't even try and didn't even cited doing that.
- [39:51]
B
There were some, and again, I'm not an expert, I didn't like, prepare heavily
- [39:55]
A
for this part of the studies they cited. That's on page 14 of the Google search results. And so if you're only citing that without the context of everything around it, I can't legitimately believe that you're attempting to have information.
- [40:07]
B
Again, I don't know the exact studies they were citing, but what I can say is it seemed like there was genuine pushback towards, to, towards your characterization of some of the specific studies. Yeah, that they, you know, I think you were saying, are these politically motivated? Which I think is a valid question, but what they were asserting is, no, these are legitimate. And at that point, I mean, that just requires more rigorous analysis for somebody to get to the truth of that. But I would say if I could draw a dotted line around a part of the liberal or Democratic platform that needs to be workshopped in a way to better communicate where people stand. I think gender affirming care, trans identity and minors just that is something that is very hard for people to get consensus on.
- [40:59]
A
And I think the closest, and we've tested some of these things, the closest that folks can get right now that'd be a very productive place to go is we want rental rights, we want families to be able to make decisions for themselves with the guidance of medical professionals. No one is advocating for, for a child to make this choice without parental support and without medical support. The thesis on the gender affirming care for young people that I've successfully delivered to really, really far right conservative individuals and have gotten them to step back from their perspective is the government shouldn't have a say. You and I don't know what's going on with the 16 year old girl in Alabama. We don't know what's going on with a 17 year old boy in Utah. We don't know what's going on with the 15 year old in New York City. We don't know these people. We don't know what's going on, we don't know what's going on their whole lives. We don't know what's going on with the parents, we don't know what their psychologists are saying.
- [41:46]
B
We're.
- [41:47]
A
We don't know what their medical professionals are saying at all. What we need to be doing is making sure that these medical professionals have better access to information, have better abilities to care for and support people, that we're getting more people involved, that we're having a more universally appreciated and individualized process. Because having one size fits all, one rule fits all, will never work.
- [42:06]
B
I think what you're getting at is a strong platform. We're against the government making the choice and we want parents to have the best quality information and understand the options that they have that are on the table. For them to navigate that as their family like I think that that makes sense. Do you think there's a way to build a coalition with people who have some varying points of view around this very complicated issue?
- [42:30]
A
I do think that coalition building is possible. I think it's essential. And I also think we just need to be very real about what it means to do that. It means that we are going to have to be very careful about how we build these coalitions and who shares space with who and who talks with who and who builds with who and what the intention of each part of the coalition is, because right now we're facing an attack on democracy. And if we can all hold shared values to protect democracy and then build out from there and build from the common ground, we're going to see that. Oh, wait, you just want what's best for this child. I just want what's best for this child. We both agree that the parent knows better than us. Let's take a step back. I've watched those moments happen in our office. I've watched them happen. And so I know they can.
- [43:10]
B
There were a lot of moments that came up though, which something that I thought was encouraging was like, there were a lot of middle ground moments that you had. And I would love to just kind of call out a few of them. Yeah. And so, like, I had written some down and, you know, there was a moment with Benjamin where he was like, trans girls can be trans girls.
- [43:29]
A
We're teaching people things that are not
- [43:31]
B
young people, things that are not true. For instance, we're teaching boys that they can be girls.
- [43:36]
A
That fundamentally I think is unsafe. Boys can't be girls. Trans girls can be girls. Trans girls can be trans girls. Right. And I wouldn't disagree with you that they don't exist.
- [43:45]
B
They're human beings. You're a human being. I love you and care about you
- [43:48]
A
as a human being. That's a dub. We'll take it from there.
- [43:50]
B
We agree.
- [43:50]
A
Okay, let's take that. That's a dub. People are people.
- [43:52]
B
We see each other.
- [43:53]
A
We're human beings. Right. I genuinely. I love that.
- [43:55]
B
Okay. But within that, there are still things we can teach people that can harm them. And you guys, like, agreed and kind of like shook on that. And there were moments like, you know, acknowledging that gender dysphoria is a real experience, you know, for even people who are struggling to get to a fuller understanding of trans identity.
- [44:17]
A
They.
- [44:18]
B
They acknowledge the reality of gender dysphoria. I saw middle ground around, you know, sexual abuse of minors is bad. It. That was like an important thing that somebody needed to hear.
- [44:31]
A
It was common ground about. Some book bands are out of pocket. Queer and trans aren't inherently sexual. Drag shows aren't inherently bad. I think especially towards the end, once a lot of the conversations had gotten from their most primal into something more nuanced. We were able to get to a lot of great places. That was so beautiful. And I think if I had come in swinging or if I had come in like, all right, conservatives, let's put you in pocket, you redneck. Hillbilly morons, then it would have been a disaster. It would have been a disaster. I know, even if it's so hard to know it, that the majority of the people surrounding me were not bad, hateful people. They were deeply, consistently misinformed people. And what the data shows us is that with enough time and enough conversation, these people can change the way they think and can do the same for others.
- [45:25]
B
This is something that's always on my mind. Do you worry about, do you ever worry that you're misinformed?
- [45:33]
A
I worry. I sometimes don't have enough information, but I interrogate. I interrogate. I watch some Fox News. I talk to wild people all day long. I've read the studies. I. I dive deep into it. I can understand the idea of surgery on young people that is not reversible, is scary. I understand that I'm not acting like I don't. And so I look into it. If I'm going to be fighting for something as a young person who's never experienced it, I want to deeply understand it. I talk to people. I talk to people who have transitioned and it saved their lives. I've talked to people who have transitioned and then chosen to detransition. And I'm sure I'm misinformed about stuff. That's part of the game. But being honest with yourself and having discipline is the most important thing. Like, I can tell when I'm not trying my hardest to be challenged and when I am, and most of us can, most of us can feel it in our guts.
- [46:31]
B
Xander, thank you so much. I appreciate you digging back into this, defending your views and your opinions and your beliefs. I think that's really important and it was really generous of you.
- [46:41]
A
Yeah, of course. I think I appreciate you having this conversation with me and giving me the opportunity to reflect on some of it. Life move fast. This has been a good chance for me to think back to that moment.
- [46:55]
B
If you want to hear more follow up episodes of Surrounded, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can also check out Jubilee on YouTube. And if you want to send me a message or give me feedback from today's episode, you can find me on X or YouTube. John Regolato, thanks so much for listening. Remember, you could be wrong. And so could I. Until next time, Monster Energy.
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A
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That's the og it kicked off this
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B
1-800-contacts. Time.