Podcast
Sustain
Hosted by SustainOSS · EN
Sustain brings together practitioners, sustainers, funders, researchers and maintainers of the open source ecosystem. We have conversations about the health and sustainability of the open source community. We learn about the ins and outs of what ‘open source’ entails in the real world. Open source means so much more than a license; we're interested in talking about how to make sure that the culture of open source continues, grows, and ultimately, sustains itself. Newsletter
29episodes
Episodes
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Episode 292: Vlad-Stefan Harbuz: Launching the Software Stewardship Lab
1w ago00:35:58Tap to summarizeGuest Vlad-Stefan Harbuz Panelist Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox | Abby Cabunoc Mayes Show Notes “Today we’re launching the Software Stewardship Lab.” - Vlad-Stefan In this episode, Richard, Abby, and Eriol welcome Vlad-Stefan Harbuz - University of Edinburgh PhD student, Executive Director of the Software Stewardship Lab, and Director of the Open Source Pledge - to talk about the Open Source Pledge and the newly launched Software Stewardship Lab. They discuss how companies can better support the open source software they depend on, why it can be difficult to know where funding should go, and how the lab hopes to address issues like software security, hidden dependencies, and maintainer burnout. Press download now to hear more! [00:02:03] Richard introduces Vlad and his background, and Vlad shares his path into open source research. [00:03:30] Vlad explains how the Open Source Pledge works. [00:06:17] The conversation turns to how the funding goes directly to maintainers. [00:07:57] Vlad discusses why open source funding becomes a popularity contest. [00:10:05] We hear about challenges for large companies joining the pledge. [00:13:16] Vlad tells us about the Software Stewardship Lab. [00:15:09] The conversation highlights the importance of design, user experience, copywriting, localization, data collection, and other essential work that is frequently overlooked or poorly funded. [00:17:59] Vlad discusses potential partnerships with the Software Sustainability Institute and researchers studying open source, research software, and community health. [00:20:58] We hear how the lab plans to fund its work and the hidden risk of binary dependencies. [00:25:49] The lab’s work extends beyond dependency mapping to research on maintainer burnout, the effects of AI, mental health, and governance structures that encourage sustainable participation. [00:28:48] Vlad urges employees and decision-makers to recognize that supporting open source is both a public good and a practical business investment that can prevent critical infrastructure from breaking. Quotes [00:09:12] “These metrics are at best proxies currently.” [00:17:47] “We need more educational resources to show people that this stuff is really important and it’s not just lines of code.” [00:28:19] “It’s about creating a larger space that focused on more general questions in open source sustainability.” [00:28:53] “I would like to tell people that work for large companies to tell their employers that their corporate commercial work relies more on open source software that people develop for free in their free time, the work is tremendously important for their business, and there are other organizations that are doing work to help create resources to make this infrastructure more sustainable.” [00:29:31] “Try to convince your boss that this stuff is worth funding, and not just for the social good! It’s also in the company’s interest, so you have two very good reasons to do it.” Spotlight [00:31:15] Eriol’s spotlight is Paloma Oliveira’s book, Diversifying Open Source. [00:31:48] Abby’s spotlight is Ben Balter’s book, Open and Async. [00:32:25] Richard’s spotlight is the Generative AI Risk Register. [00:33:01] Vlad’s spotlight is Chad Whitacre and Open Path Episode 4. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) SustainOSS YouTube Richard Littauer Socials Eriol Fox Website Abby Cabunoc Mayes Website Vlad-Stefan Harbuz LinkedIn Vlad-Stefan Harbuz Website Software Stewardship Lab Software Stewardship Lab Contribute (Open Collective) Open Source Pledge UK Research and Innovation: Apply for funding npmx Open Technology Research Open Source in war-torn Ukraine and around the world—join me on an epic journey ❧ Open Path #4 PEP 725 – Specifying external dependencies in pyproject.toml PEP 770 – Improving measurability of Python packages with Software Bill-of-Materials PEP 804 –An external dependency registry and name mapping mechanism Sustain Podcast: Episode 247- Chad Whitacre on the Open Source Pledge Sustain Podcast: 3 episodes featuring guest Chad Whitacre Sustain Podcast: 3 episodes featuring guest Andrew Nesbitt Sustain Podcast: 2 episodes featuring guest Kailash Nadh Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest Neil Chue Hong Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest Stuart Geiger Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest Sean Goggins Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest James Howison Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest Kaitlin Thaney Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest Miranda Heath Report on Burnout in Open Source Software (Miranda Heath Website) Diversifying Open Source: An Open Standards Playbook for Inclusive and Equitable Tech Projects by Paloma Oliveira About empires, pirates, and the small files that undo power (LinkedIn post by Paloma Oliveira) Open and Async by Ben Balter Generative AI Risk Register Open Path Episode 4 (YouTube) Sponsor CURIOSS Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Support Sustain
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Episode 291: Chelsea Finnie on PythonNZ
3w ago00:29:27Tap to summarizeGuest Chelsea Finnie Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard talks with Chelsea Finnie, Chairperson of Python New Zealand and a Senior Network DevOps Engineer at REANNZ, about the serious behind-the-scenes work required to keep open source communities alive. Chelsea shares how they moved from Python conference volunteer to community leader, then walks through Python New Zealand’s financial crisis after discovering improper use of funds, the legal and governance challenges that followed, and how Linux Australia helped keep the organization and Kiwi PyCon alive. It’s a candid conversation about trust, accountability, burnout, community rescue, and why open source leadership is about much more than code. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:47] Chelsea explains their work at REANNZ and their role as a senior network DevOps engineer including Python-based network automation and the PANDA initiative for advancing network device automation. [00:03:08] Chelsea talks about contributing an open source “glue” service connecting Prometheus Alertmanager to Argus using Flask. [00:04:21] Chelsea takes us through how they got involved with Python New Zealand, helping rescue AV production for a Kiwi PyCon event, and realizing they might be capable of helping run a conference themselves. [00:06:58] They share the lighter side of joining the Python NZ committee, including a sea shanty lightning talk and an election promise to write a Python-based sea shanty. [00:08:35] Richard shifts into the central issue: Python New Zealand leadership had been dealing with a major financial and governance crisis and Chelsea explains discovering the budget hole, seeking legal advice, reviewing the transactions, and what happened when Linux Australia stepped in. [00:14:43] Chelsea reflects on Linux Australia’s role as a lifeline and why having financially stable open source organizations matters. [00:15:46] Richard highlights the often-overlooked legal and financial responsibility that comes with serving on nonprofit or open source boards and Chelsea shares where Python NZ stands now. [00:18:26] They tell us about the new safeguards and governance checks and notes that better accounting systems, such as Xero, would likely have exposed the financial problems earlier [00:20:31] Chelsea shares how they stay motivated through heavy work and the value of open source leadership. [00:21:57] Richard points out that Chelsea was not only helping fix financial and governance issues but also continuing to lead Python New Zealand and run events. Chelsea talks about the decision to run Kiwi PyCon on the “West Island.” [00:25:08] Chelsea says one of their goals as chairperson is to identify and support the next people who will lead Python New Zealand and future events. [00:26:14] Richard closes by encouraging listeners to get involved in their local open source communities, whether Python New Zealand or any other regional group. Spotlight [00:26:51] Richard’s spotlight is, The Book of Knights. [00:27:17] Chelsea’s spotlight is the video game, Outer Wilds. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Chelsea Finnie LinkedIn REANNZ Python New Zealand Catalyst Danny Adair GitHub Frank Keating LinkedIn Simon Merrick LinkedIn Kiwi PyCon ponekeshantyclub Tom Eastman LinkedIn Linux Australia The Book of Knights by Yves Meynard Outer Wilds Prometheus-argus-glue Sponsor CURIOSS Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Chelsea Finnie.Support Sustain
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Episode 290: Andrew Nesbitt on AI, Transitive Dependencies, and the New Open Source Security Crunch
4w ago00:16:10Tap to summarizeAt UN Open Source Week in New York, Richard hosts a short, on-the-fly Sustain mini-episode from IBM’s offices with Andrew Nesbitt of Ecosyste.ms, a registry-of-registries built from dependency data across 300 million repositories. Nesbitt explains how that data is being used to prioritize security scanning with new AI models, revealing that many heavily used but dormant transitive dependencies—often unseen and unaudited—are high risk; in his testing of about 3,000 critical, abandoned projects across multiple ecosystems, roughly 50% had serious vulnerabilities, including logic flaws that can chain across dependency trees. He warns that LLMs accelerate both discovery and exploitation, shrinking traditional 90-day disclosure windows to effectively zero. They urge developers to prune and update dependencies and devices promptly, and to support maintainers respectfully—financially or with broader help—amid vulnerability floods and initiatives like the “Summer of Bliss.” 00:00 UN Open Source Week 00:58 Meet Andrew Nesbitt 01:45 AI Models Meet Dependency Data 04:05 The Hidden Transitive Risk 07:02 Abandoned Packages Crisis 08:34 Why It Matters Now 09:44 Responsible Disclosure Shrinks 11:48 What You Can Do Today 13:10 Support Maintainers Better 15:30 Wrap Up and Call to ActionSpecial Guest: Andrew Nesbitt.Support Sustain
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Episode 289: Courtney Miller on Maintainer Burnout and Software Abandonment
Jun 1200:30:58Tap to summarizeGuest Courtney Miller Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard welcomes back Courtney Miller to unpack her PhD research on one of open source’s most overlooked problems: what happens when widely used software is abandoned. Courtney explains why abandonment is not always simple, or even always bad, but can create real risks for the developers and projects that depend on it. From npm package research and downstream impact to Abandabot, AI-assisted tooling, maintainer burnout, and responsible sunsetting, this conversation explores how the open source ecosystem can better understand, detect, and respond when the software we rely on stops being maintained. Press download now! [00:01:28] Courtney explains the focus of her dissertation. [00:02:34] Courtney defines abandonment. [00:03:44] Her ecosystem-wide analysis focused on the npm JavaScript ecosystem, looking specifically at widely used packages. [00:05:23] The first part of the dissertation involved interviews with maintainers who rely on abandoned packages and often lack tools or clear processes for responding. [00:06:31] Courtney describes two types of abandonment: Explicit Notice Abandonment and Activity Based Abandonment. [00:09:27] Courtney explains the third and final chapter called, Designing Abandabot. [00:11:10] Richard raises the point that some software can be “done” and still function fine. Courtney agrees, noting that not all abandonment matters and beyond alerts remediation matters. [00:13:22] The conversation expands into under-resourced and under-maintained projects, which can also become supply chain risks before they are fully abandoned. [00:14:53] Richard brings up the “Whale Fall” idea and Courtney agrees and points to responsible sunsetting as an important research area. [00:17:39] We learn about Courtney’s experience bringing AI into the dissertation, especially for building Abandabot’s prediction system. [00:20:54] Richard asks whether AI is already making abandonment more common. [00:24:52] Courtney talks about staying grounded in real practitioner problems as the open source and AI landscape changes quickly. [00:26:30] Final Takeaways: Courtney argues that abandonment needs to be addressed now, especially through software composition analysis tools that can help developers understand and respond to real dependency risk. Quotes [00:01:35] “The title of my dissertation is: “Supporting the Sustainable Use of Open Source Software.” [00:07:10] “There is no right answer how to define abandonment.” [00:07:26] “Explicit Notice Abandonment”- where the maintainers of a package publicly express their intent to no longer do so.” [00:07:42] “The other type of abandonment was called “Activity Based Abandonment” -commonly used as a way of identifying abandonment in open source sustainability literature.” [00:08:26] “Out of the widely used packages, around 15% had abandonment issues.” [00:11:38] “Not all abandonment matters. If left pad is abandoned, who cares?” [00:21:35] “Maybe projects never have to die. You can create a fork and maintain it on your own.” Spotlight [00:27:20] Richard’s spotlight is the translation feature on iPhone in Books. [00:28:20] Courtney’s potlight is her dog, Chanel, and SAFE-MCP. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Courtney Miller Website Courtney Miller LinkedIn Sustain Podcast-Episode 140: Courtney Miller and Hongbo Fang on Toxicity and Information Flow in Open Source Communities Supporting the Sustainable Use of Open Source Software by Courtney Elta Miller Whale Fall (Andrew Nesbitt blog) Michael Winser LinkedIn SAFE-MCP SustainOSS - AI, FLOSS, and Sustainability Virtual Forum Registration Sponsor CURIOSS Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Courtney Miller.Support Sustain
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Episode 288: Uni students and OSS with Jeff Young & Daniel Shown
May 1500:33:48Tap to summarizeGuest Jeff Young | Daniel Shown Panelists Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard Littauer and Eriol Fox talk with Jeff Young from Georgia Tech and Daniel Shown from Saint Louis University (SLU) about how academic OSPOs are bringing students into open source in meaningful, sustainable ways. They discuss experiential learning, research software engineering, near-peer mentorship, student motivation, maintainer burnout, and how universities can help students build real-world skills while strengthening open source communities. Press download now! [00:01:46] Jeff describes Georgia Tech’s OSPO focus. [00:03:49] Daniel explains SLU’s experiential learning model. [00:05:29] Daniel and Jeff share how many students they’re working with in their programs. [00:06:13] Jeff talks about how students engage with open source and Daniel describes meeting students and the wide range of student experience levels. [00:09:33] They discuss what the students bring to the sustainability of open source software and the value of seeing open source as a community effort. [00:13:05] Richard asks how academic programs connect students with maintainers when many open source maintainers are already overwhelmed. Daniel explains how SLU uses internal tech leads as near-peer mentors and describes training student maintainers. [00:15:26] Daniel describes training student maintainers. [00:16:45] Jeff discusses Georgia Tech’s growing mentor model. [00:18:55] Eriol asks the guests what their “dream programs” would be if they had more resources. [00:23:44] Richard asks how to excite universities, funders, administrators, teachers, students, and other stakeholders about open source education. They discuss open source, AI, student excitement, grounded storytelling, and real impact. [00:28:24] Find out where you can learn more about Georgia Tech and SLU’s OSPOs programs online. Quotes [00:05:24] “I call the students developers. They’re not students, they’re actual developers.” [00:10:50] “Those students may not be the greatest developers, but they still have a great perspective and insight that helps grow and diversify some of these open source projects.” [00:13:20] “Our project is fun in that I don’t have to put pressure on upstream projects to find maintainers to support the contributions from students.” [00:13:57] “It helps create a sense of empathy for maintainers of bigger projects that are out there.” [00:26:39] “I had a student tell me at the end of last semester: 'More grounded, fewer aspirations.'" [00:27:18] “You wouldn’t have stoplights without OSS.” Spotlight [00:29:19] Eriol’s spotlight is ScienceUX.org. [00:29:53] Richard’s spotlight is Logeion, a project out of UChicago. [00:30:34] Jeff’s spotlight is the App, iNaturalist and iNat INQUIRE Project. [00:31:13] Daniel’s spotlight is Processing.org. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Eriol Fox Website Jeffrey Young LinkedIn Jeffrey Young Website Daniel Shown LinkedIn Georgia Tech Open Source Program Office Georgia Tech OSPO Virtual Summer Internship Program (VSIP) GT Open Source Program Office LinkedIn Saint Louis University Open Source with SLU Open Source with SLU-Opening Skills & Solutions Open Source with SLU LinkedIn ScienceUX logeion iNaturalist iNat x INQUIRE Project- GT Center for Scientific Software Engineering iNatInq ML Pipeline-GitHub Processing Sustain Podcast-Episode 274: Qianqian Ye on p5.js SustainOSS – AI, FLOSS, and Sustainability Virtual Forum (11 June 2026) Sponsor CURIOSS Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guests: Daniel Shown and Jeff Young.Support Sustain
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Episode 287: Alan Rubin on MaveDB
Apr 1700:39:51Tap to summarizeGuest Alan Rubin Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes On this episode of Sustain, Richard Littauer sits down with computational biologist Alan Rubin to explore how open source software supports scientific research, clinical genetics, and cancer-related data infrastructure. Their conversation centers on MaveDB, a project that began as a way to organize hard-to-find variant data from research papers and has since evolved into a valuable resource for both scientists and clinicians. Along the way, they discuss infrastructure funding, research software sustainability, and why open source communities and academic researchers have a lot to learn from each other. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:24] Alan explains his role leading a research group focused on genomics, cancer medicine, and improving patient care through genetics. [00:02:46] We learn more about what MaveDB does. [00:06:52] Alan details why a database was needed. [00:08:26] Alan shares how the project grew out of collaboration, PyCon AU inspiration, Django, and Python tooling that let a small team build a practical research database. [00:11:54] There’s a discussion on the infrastructure funding problem and Alan explains a major theme is how hard it is to fund scientific infrastructure, since most grants favor new discoveries rather than maintaining shared tools and databases. [00:17:55] The project took a major turn when clinical geneticists began using the data to interpret patient variants, pushing the team to rethink the interface and user needs. [00:21:13] Alan describes the new clinical-facing interface, Mave for Medicine (MaveMD), designed to help doctors evaluate specific variants for diagnosis and treatment decisions. [00:22:02] Alan talks about managing the project through a distributed team, shared responsibilities, and a role that now centers more on direction, priorities, and community than day-to-day coding. [00:23:36] They discuss why research software rarely attracts hobbyist contributors, even when the mission is compelling, and how scientific projects often function more like small product teams. [00:27:44] Alan makes the case that scientists often learn more about improving their software craft at events like PyCon than at discipline-specific conferences. [00:30:38] Alan highlights how academic software depends heavily on mature, well-documented open source tools and encourages more connection between technical communities and scientific work. [00:34:15] Find out where you can learn more about MaveDB and Alan’s work. Quotes [00:10:04] “We quite literally followed the Django Girls tutorial, but instead of a building a blog, we built a database for research scientists.” [00:12:35] “Infrastructure is something everybody wants to have it exist and nobody wants to pay for.” [00:26:08] “I have never been successful in engaging the broader open source community, despite having tried many times to contribute to this or any other scientific project.” [00:31:01] “I think people who work in OSS should be excited about the kind of stuff that their work is enabling, even if they don’t really hear about it.” Spotlight [00:35:44] Richard’s spotlight is the book, News of the Dead. [00:36:22] Alan’s spotlight is The Global Alliance for Genomics & Health (GA4GH) and all the good work they’re doing. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Alan Rubin LinkedIn Dr. Alan Rubin Website (The University of Melbourne) PyCon AU 2026, Brisbane, August 26-30 Sustain Podcast- Episode 286: Jack Skinner of PyCon AU and Regional Confs Sustain Podcast- Episode 176: Maintainer Month with Russell Keith-Magee & Uriel Ofir Django Girls PyCon AU 2023-“Building a biological database with Python”- Alan Rubin (YouTube) Sustain Podcast- Episode 135: Tracy Hinds on Node.js’s CommComm and PMs in Open Source Sustain Podcast-Episode 190: Karen Sandler on Software Freedom Conservancy (SFC) Original database paper (Pub Med) Database update paper (Pub Med) Preprint on the clinician-oriented interface Variant scoring tools for deep mutational scanning (Pub Med) Atlas of Variant Effects MaveDB News of the Dead Global Alliance for Geonomics & Health (GA4GH) Sponsor CURIOSS Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Alan Rubin.Support Sustain
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Episode 286: Jack Skinner of PyCon AU and Regional Confs
Mar 1300:40:05Tap to summarizeGuest Jack Skinner Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Jack Skinner, PyCon AU organizer and freelance consultant/fractional CTO, to explore why regional conferences matter so much to the long-term health of open source communities. Their conversation looks at how events like PyCon AU do far more than host talks, they create local connections, nurture future leaders, support first-time speakers, and help sustain the broader Python ecosystem in ways that global conferences alone cannot. Drawing on Jack’s experience as a conference organizer and community builder, the episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at the challenges of running volunteer-led events, from sponsorships and logistics to burnout, accessibility, and building a stronger pipeline of future organizers. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:49] Jack shares his background and how he got involved in Python and event organizing. [00:02:48] We hear about Jack’s first PyCon AU experience. [00:04:14] Jack describes PyCon AU, who it serves, and how it’s changed after COVID. [00:07:01] Why do regional conferences exist alongside PyCon US? [00:09:24] Jack talks about what makes Australia and New Zealand different as conference communities. [00:10:55] PyCon AU’s attendance goals are discussed as Jack mentions his big goal is to bring attendance back to roughly 500-600 people, restoring pre-pandemic strength. [00:12:04] The discussion turns to conference structure: tracks, workshops, and sponsor interest, with Jack emphasizing sponsorship is not just about money. [00:14:54] Richard asks how organizers know whether conferences help people learn, connect, or build community. Jack explains how they’re measuring community impact beyond “good vibes” and rebuilding local Python communities. [00:17:34] Jack explains PyCon AU is trying to build a future organizer pipeline by letting people observe how conference planning works and introduces his proposed program/project, “shadow team.” [00:19:09] Another project Jack is working on is documenting the behind-the-scenes work of organizing the conference through long-form writing. [00:20:38] Jack admits he feels imposter syndrome because he’s not paid to write Python, his contribution is centered on the sociotechnical side. [00:23:20] PyCon AU’s independence from government and institutions is discussed, and how the conference community is globally aware, even if locally focused. [00:27:05] Call for proposals details, deadline is March 29, and the in-person focus for this year’s event are mentioned. Richard discusses the return of the academic track and Jack details more info on poster sessions and workshop submissions. [00:32:08] Volunteering and buying tickets are explained and why you should buy tickets early if you can. Quotes [00:32:20] “Volunteering is an awesome way to be involved in PyCon.” Spotlight [00:35:16] Richard’s spotlight is two of his lecturers at the University of Edinburgh, Simon Kirby and Andrew Smith, who introduced him to Python. [00:35:55] Jack’s spotlight is two companion projects: pretalx and pretix. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Jack Skinner LinkedIn Jack Skinner Website PyCon AU, August 26-30, 2026, Brisbane PyCon AU News & Updates Sustain Podcast-Episode 75: Deb Nicholson on the OSI, the future of open source, and SeaGL Sustain Podcast-Episode 137: A How-to Guide for Contributing to Open Source as an Employee, for Corporations (featuring Deb Nicholson as Host) Guido van Rossum Whale song shows language-like statistical structure Simon Kirby (co-lead author) pretalx (GitHub) pretix (GitHub) Sponsor CURIOSS Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Jack Skinner.Support Sustain
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Episode 285: Miranda Heath on Altruism & Burnout in Open Source
Mar 600:44:11Tap to summarizeGuest Miranda Heath Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by PhD student Miranda Heath to discuss her research on altruism and maintainer burnout in open source, and specifically her report on burn out in open source maintainers. Miranda shares insights from her study on what motivates people to act altruistically and how these behaviors manifest in open source communities. She delves into the common issues maintainers face, such as changing motivations and the systemic challenges that contribute to burnout. Drawing on examples from her research, including kidney donors and open source maintainers, Miranda explores how community support, mentorship, and better funding can help mitigate burnout. The conversation also touches on the unique challenges neurodiverse maintainers face and the importance of creating supportive environments for them. Press download now to hear more! [00:00:44] Richard introduces Miranda Heath, whom he met at FOSDEM, and she’s built a major report on maintainer burnout. [00:02:04] Miranda studies what motivates people to benefit others, how “altruism” is often framed too narrowly, and she points out neglected forms. [00:03:40] Richard asks about a name for the type of altruism, and they land on “collective altruism” as a useful label for shared/commons based giving. [00:04:25] Miranda explains her work on anonymous kidney donors and the key insight from the kidney donors is that altruism can be mundane. [00:06:45] Looking at the motivations of open source developers, Miranda sees overlap between altruistic impulses and open source and contrasts this with academia’s paywall-driven publication system. [00:08:36] They discuss how motivation changes which leads to burnout risk, and Richard brings up Miranda’s maintainer burnout report and what it was based on. [00:10:13] Miranda describes how this report started and what she wanted to change. [00:13:21] What are some systematic solutions for burnout? Miranda argues “money vs people” is a false dichotomy: respecting maintainers includes making it possible to live. Burnout is worsened by “double shift” dynamics and “Labor of love is still labor.” [00:16:18] Richard notes many maintainers are paid through employers, Miranda talks about paid maintainer roles still carry burnout risk, and some research done by Robert Karasek in the late 70’s. [00:20:14] Miranda draws from social psychology: communities run on group norms (often unspoken), and emphasizes we need to make beneficiaries feel part of the in-group, so they adopt norms. [00:22:36] Richard highlights the Open Source Pledge and policy approaches like the Cyber Resilience Act, and Miranda notes policy could reduce autonomy and increase burnout if rigid. [00:26:22] What happens after burnout? Miranda believes we should prevent unwanted exits, normalize “sunsetting” conversations, and have a plan to wind down a project. [00:31:17] There’s a discussion on how burnout shouldn’t equal personal failure, and an example is brought up with the Tailwind CSS tensions. [00:35:19] Miranda stresses the importance of mentorship for community roles to be filled, Richard cites Abby Cabunoc’s “3 C’s” for mentor-worthy contributors, and Miranda mentions the concept of “Mentorship Triangle.” [00:38:03] Find out where you can follow Miranda and her work online. [00:38:27] We wrap with Miranda sharing there’s an important gap with neurodivergence and autistic burnout and how more research needs to be done. Quotes [00:15:13] “Maintenance work is work, but a labor of love is labor.” Spotlight [00:40:47] Richard's spotlight is the klezmer band, OCH VEY. [00:41:33] Miranda’s spotlight is the puzzle game, TR-49. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Miranda Heath Website Sentry Open Source Pledge Job Demands, Job Decision Latitude, and Mental Strain: Implications for Job Redesign by Robert Karasek, Jr. (Sage Publications) Cyber Resilience Act Abby Cabunoc Mayes-The Synthetic Senior: Rethinking Free Software Mentorship in the AI Era (FOSDEM 2026 talk video) OCH VEY Instagram TR-49 Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Miranda Heath.Support Sustain
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Episode 284: Devconnect 2025 with Trent Van Epps
Feb 2700:28:29Tap to summarizeGuest Trent Van Epps Panelists Eriol Fox | Victory Brown Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Eriol Fox and co-host Victory Brown are at the Devconnect Conference in Buenos Aires with Trent Van Epps, an organizer of Protocol Guild and member of the Ethereum Foundation. They discuss the vital role of Protocol Guild in funding core protocol developers, addressing systemic issues of under-compensation in open-source projects. Trent also explores the similarities and differences between funding in the open-source community and the Ethereum ecosystem, emphasizing the importance of collective representation and the unique financial structures of blockchain technology. The conversation highlights the necessity of diversity and inclusion within the Ethereum community and shares insights on the impact of adverse regulatory pressures and funding challenges. Press download now! [00:00:29] Trent explains Protocol Guild and he connects Guild work to his EF role coordinating network upgrades and ensuring stable funding and continuity. [00:02:35] Trent tells us why core contributors are under compensated and notes there’s a “hot ball of money” problem. [00:05:21] Eriol and Trent discuss discomfort around money in open source. the myth of pure altruism, and the reality that “you can’t eat your code.” [00:06:28] What can open source learn from Ethereum? Trent points to classic charitable giving practices and highlights Ethereum’s difference and stresses that funding can be used as a political lever. [00:11:07] Trent contrasts different contributor needs and points out diversity/heterogeneity as essential to Ethereum’s robustness and security. [00:15:40] Trent describes tight social bonds in Ethereum formed by “youth of the ecosystem” and shared regulatory pressures, which push the community to cooperate defensively, and he talks about how Protocol Guild operates like a loose union/syndicate. [00:20:03] He outlines their funding vehicle called the 1% Pledge. [00:22:07] Trent acknowledges high-profile scams and speculative excess get media attention, overshadowing serious work, like the technological waves with railroads. He points to Argentina, Kenya, and other places with weak institutions. [00:24:59] Eriol closes the discussion with a call to widen your bubble. [00:26:08] Trent’s project spotlight is ZKP2P and a great book by Benjamin Birkinbine. Also, he shares where you can find him on the internet. Links podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Eriol Fox X Victory Brown X Trent Van Epps X Devconnect- 2025, Buenos Aires, Argentina, 17-22 November Ethereum Ethereum Foundation Protocol Guild ZKP2P Incorporating the Digital Commons: Corporate Involvement in Free and Open Source Software by Benjamin J. Birkinbine Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Logistical support by Tina Arboleda from Digital Savvies Special Guest: Trent Van Epps.Support Sustain
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Episode 283: Devconnect 2025 with Nuno Loureiro
Feb 2000:17:33Tap to summarizeGuest Nuno Loureiro Panelists Eriol Fox | Victory Brown Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Eriol Fox and co-host Victory Brown are live with Nuno Loureiro, Lead Designer at the Ethereum Foundation, at Devconnect Conference in Buenos Aires. Nuno shares his journey in digital design and discusses his role in focusing on ethereum.org. He highlights the challenges of designing for open source platforms, including the difficulty of onboarding and collaborating with designers. He also touches on UX challenges in the context of blockchain technology, emphasizing the importance of trust and design for mass adoption of open source tools. The discussion further explores how the Ethereum Foundation engages with the community for design feedback and the decentralized nature of project narratives. The episode concludes with Nuno spotlighting Penpot, a tool he believes is changing the landscape design. Hit download now to hear more! [00:00:34] Nuno shares his background in digital and product design and joining Ethereum Foundation to focus on Ethereum.org as a learning portal. [00:02:13] He shares the biggest design challenges at the Ethereum Foundation starting out with a major challenge which was opening a design system to open source collaboration. [00:04:08] Eriol asks how good design and usability relate to sustainable open source. Nuno argues UX is the main blocker for mass adoption of open source tools and uses tools like GIMP as an example. [00:05:00] Victory asks how Nuno brings more designers into the ecosystem and elevates design conversations. He admits he’s “not doing enough” and notes how hard it is to balance paid work with open source contributions and critiques designers, including himself, as poor collaborators compared with developers. [00:06:27] Eriol reflects on how both coders and designers get deeply attached to their work, and notes that vulnerability and openness to critique are hard but necessary for sustainability of open source to grow. [00:07:54] Eriol brings up Vitalik’s talk, Founder of Ethereum, at Funding the Commons, where he emphasized reliability as critical to UX and poses a question to Nuno. He explains what Ethereum Foundation’s current “three mantras” are. [00:11:49] A question is brought up about how design decisions for new features are made inside Ethereum and what others can learn. Nuno clarifies the Ethereum Foundation does not own the protocol or roadmap and is a community based approach. [00:13:26] Victory asks how Ethereum gathers UX feedback from users. Nuno says they rely heavily on third party projects that do their own UX research. [00:14:43] Nuno spotlights Penpot, an open source design tool he uses and believes is changing the design landscape. Links podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Eriol Fox X Victory Brown X Nuno Loureiro X Nuno Loureiro Website Ethereum Foundation Ethereum Devconnect- 2025, Buenos Aires, Argentina, 17-22 November Funding the Commons Penpot Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Logistical support by Tina Arboleda from Digital Savvies Special Guest: Nuno Loureiro.Support Sustain
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