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- [00:00]
A
You have to be excited about what you're creating for it to perform well.
- [00:04]
B
I want to be the most hated creator in the running space. I don't ever say that it's a.
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A
Format that is winning right now.
- [00:09]
B
I don't want to be hated, but I don't live my life based on those opinions.
- [00:12]
A
You're now positioned to be one of none, bro.
- [00:15]
B
I've done all the concepts that you can think of, but he just flicked me off randomly.
- [00:18]
A
What's up, y'? All? Welcome to another episode of Sweat Equity. I told you this year we were going to be doing a lot more guests. One of the guests is one of my favorite creators, probably founder as well, because I know you've been tinkering on some things, Matt Choi. So, Matt, I appreciate you coming here. Most probably everybody that listens to Sweat Equity knows who you are because I've referenced. And we'll go deeper layers, deeper into it. But. But give us a little bit of the intro and then we're going to dive into something.
- [00:41]
B
Oh, yeah, it's funny, this morning I was shooting content and my buddy Brian was like, he did some of my content. And he goes, oh, yeah, dude. I got this newsletter that they was talking about you, actually about the miles challenge. And I'm like. I was like, is it the sweat equity now? He's like, yeah. And I was like, dog, I'm about to go sit on a pot with Alex. Ask for this. But a little bit about myself. I'm a younger brother raised by a single mom, played football growing up, played up in college. I got into running and just endurance world in, like, the midst of the pandemic. Moved to Austin about four or five years ago, and it was really more just a gamble on more of a bet on myself in that way. And I kind of went all in on content at that same season in my life. And four or five years later now I've obviously been in the running and endurance space for a minute. I always look at myself as a creator first and then an athlete and whatever else I'm trying to get into. I mean, obviously I'm big in the content and marketing ecosystem. In a day transition to athletics and athletic piece is kind of some things I've always interchanged, whether it's been football, running, you know, cycling, high rocks, golf. Like, I like. I feel like for me, it's always tinkering in different interests that I have. And honestly, most of that starts with me just being, like, not good at something and then going all in and then Getting obsessed to try to get better.
- [01:49]
A
Hell yeah, I love it. And you and I both have similar backgrounds, played college football and then had to go completely different path because we didn't get drafted.
- [01:57]
B
Yeah. Which like most people are not getting.
- [01:59]
A
Guys, they're not going to go. I was talking to somebody and he played. Oh, you know Jackson from.
- [02:04]
B
Absolutely.
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A
Mitchell.
- [02:05]
B
Yeah.
- [02:06]
A
Him and I were both talking about it. He's like, were you trying to go to league? I was like, of course I was trying to go to league. And he's like, I was too. And then it's like, soon as that, that dream gets crushed. Very fast. Absolutely. Very, very fast. But I want to dive into something that I think is very important for both creators and brands, which is to have a signature series, something that a viewer creates a specific expectation around and they attach that expectation to the either the brain or the individual. You've done it. I mean, you've done it very, very well with your mild challenge. So I want to go a few layers deep into, into the mild challenge and I also want to just set it up for individuals as well as like, the reason I think this is very important is because content is getting more saturated every single day. Every single day, more and more content is getting published. More brands are starting to take content seriously. More people are trying to become creators. Right. So therefore it's not just fighting for attention, it's fighting for familiarity. The fact that I always could see the first frame of Matt Choi's mile challenge and know exactly what I'm going to get out of it. You know what I mean? And that's so important to, from a content perspective and from like a strategy perspective to have something that you own, that you repeat and that you can scale without having to reinvent the wheel. What I want you to break down is one, start walking me through your process of like, okay, why do I want to ideate something that is something that I can, one, associate myself to, two is like my thing and three, you know, that is then this series that is connected to you but also has the ability to scale.
- [03:31]
B
Yeah. I mean, the first thing I think about is repeatability. Right. Which I think to your point of like scalability. It's like, can I take this same concept and do it with a runner, a bodybuilder, a stay at home mom, a fill in the blank? And like, if I can do that, then it then helps me eliminate the distraction of I have coming up with new stuff all the time. And I think the mile challenge itself is a great way to Bring other people on that aren't always runners. And also leveraging people's demographics and their audiences that aren't runners. And that was actually like the initial, like the thought process for me was all right. I did a mile challenge myself. Like I was tying my own mile and I saw traction that that got. Because I think for a lot of people, they actually don't know the last time they detested an all out mile. So the first test was me doing it with myself and me being like, to go into my coach and be like, yo, I need you to pace me for this mile. Seeing the traction with that and then me then being the coach or the person guiding someone else to go do the mile ended up becoming the series itself. And then to your point, it's like, all right, well, how does, how. What was I thinking? It's like, all right, well I could pretty much do this endlessly. One with getting creators I want to collaborate with that aren't in the niche that I'm in. Down the line, I was thinking I can then integrate product and brand into this, knowing that I can expect a certain amount of traction on this video because I. There's been so much proof in the pudding now. Like I've probably done 50 mile challenges and I don't think any of them have done less than a hundred thousand views. So even then going to a brand and trying to pitch that to someone, it's a lot easier for me to be like, hey, certified 100K100. Like we're going to get X amount of views guaranteed at the minimum. And we can integrate your product, your service in the video. Because most times I'm talking the runner through and those are moments where I would just plug in, hey, this is Waterloo. This is built credit card. Like we've done.
- [05:19]
A
You hit it with built.
- [05:20]
B
We hit it with built, bro. Like we pay for someone's. I went to strangers in Austin and we paid someone's month free of rent.
- [05:26]
A
I saw that.
- [05:27]
B
I'm tripping. Yeah. So like that one, it was, that was probably like a year and a half ago. And then even more recently, like we integrated Vori product in it, which was.
- [05:34]
A
Literally just seamless, right?
- [05:35]
B
Seamless. Which. The thing with, even with Vuori, like I've done, I did something with VR for like five months starting from like August to December. And most of the branded content like just doesn't really do well. But that one video outperformed every single carousel post. Just standard reel. Like it just, it significantly outperformed. So now it's like, I can then go pitch the Vuori back like, yo, starting in 26, it's like, yo, why don't you guys just sponsor the mile challenge?
- [05:59]
A
Yeah.
- [05:59]
B
For the next year, I'll always wear Vuori product. And then we could start gifting people product if they hit their goal or whatever it is.
- [06:06]
A
You know, I feel like you have such an angle with your series to have a shoe sponsor, a clothes, like an apparel sponsor, and then like a hydration or recovery sponsor. You know what I mean? Like, somebody's winded and you're just like, well, here, here's what you need to take.
- [06:18]
B
Absolutely.
- [06:18]
A
You know, I mean, like, it opens a door for you to have three sponsors and probably make, you know, significant amount of money per. Per episode. When I think about a signature series, I'm thinking about it through a few lenses. One what, like what you said, Repeatability, right? Like, you have to have the ability to repeat it and be able to build operations around the logistics that allow you to repeat it. I want to go a layer deeper there with that. How big is the crew? I once made a video about Brooklyn coffee shop.
- [06:43]
B
Yeah, okay.
- [06:44]
A
Video went mega viral, right? It got, I think, 2 million views. But one of the comments was, oh, so now as a small business, you're saying I have to start a show and I have to have a huge production. But it was like, no. What I'm trying to tell you is look at all the elements within this video. Everything is repetitive, right? Like, the theme is repetitive, the location is repetitive, how they shoot the intro, the hooks. Like all of these things are repetitive. Pay attention to that, because that's the master class you're doing. You're creating a series that's getting hundreds of thousands, if not millions of views. Like, I think the one with Brad got 1.1%.
- [07:15]
B
Yeah.
- [07:15]
A
Walk me through. What does the logistical side of that look like to be able to do that? Because I don't think it's the craziest.
- [07:20]
B
It's minimal. I think it's. It's probably the most minimal. You can go like we shoot with a gimbal, an iPhone, and we need a. A motor motorized vehicle. So some form of an ebike, a scooter. Typically ebiker scooter is how we've done it. But I don't even use mics because sometimes a mic with the wind doesn't pick up audio. Well, I literally just shoot straight off a dji gimbal with an iPhone. And we use this straight up iPhone mic.
- [07:45]
A
Yeah.
- [07:46]
B
And that's pretty much it. Obviously, the challenge itself. Another thing I love about it is shooting time is 10 minutes max. Like, think about that.
- [07:53]
A
It's like about 12 minutes, bro.
- [07:56]
B
Yeah, you probably. You're faster than that. But think about that. It's like, even as a creator, it's like, all right, you want to maximize one hour of time. I could film three mile challenges in one hour with my same shooter, three different athletes, and we can bang out potentially a million. Three videos worth a million views potentially.
- [08:13]
A
Right.
- [08:14]
B
And within one hour of time, bro. That's very scalable. And then we're looking at. All right, what's the labor of one videographer? And over the years, I've gotten different people to basically just be like, yo, I need you to be able to, like, consistently produce this content. And from that point, it's. And then just getting someone on retainer, hey, you're going to be my shooter for the mileage challenge. And that's pretty much it. And in the past, that was my brother, and we've kind of progressed it to different people. But you really just need someone who's comfortable riding a bike that can also hold a gimbal with one hand. And that's the friction, or that's a very little amount of minimal friction.
- [08:47]
A
Like, minimal. Complaining about that, then you shouldn't be making contact.
- [08:50]
B
Well, then I was then realized that some people actually don't know how to ride a bike. And I was like, damn, that's a whole nother.
- [08:55]
A
Yeah, that's layer. That's a whole other problem. You don't even worry about, kind of, unless your series is, like, how to. How to ride day one of trying to ride a bike. It's not for you. The next element that I talk about for a signature series is unique to you, something that you're positioned very uniquely to be able to do. Publish, distribute, that is associate to you with the things that you want to be associated with. Yes, you. It's endurance. It's running. Talk about that element a bit, because actually, I didn't know that the genesis of it was you timed your mile. Your coach essentially ran you through that, and you're like, oh, wait, if this worked, like, what if it just was reverse? Correct. But it's also very unique to you because it's. You're also an athlete.
- [09:32]
B
Right.
- [09:33]
A
So there's. There's people that are running marathons now that I don't say they're not athletes, but they train to just run the marathon, and they, you know, they want to check it off their box. Whereas you're like, I want to go from 240 to 235 to 2. You. Right. Like, you have goals that you're trying to attain and you train hard for them. You did Leadville. You've done all these different races. Walk me through how this is also then unique to you and your ability to do this probably better than most individuals.
- [09:56]
B
I think it comes back to just being a student athlete. And like, even my early days as a trainer, it was that ability to lead by example, by doing it yourself, and then walking someone else through the same exact thing. And I think that was kind of the origin of. Then I took it into running where it was like, when I first started running, it was me just literally throwing pasta on the wall, not knowing what I was doing. Like, not having guidance or coaching on how to actually pace or fuel or do tempo workouts or all these things. So when I first had that mile challenge I did with my. My coach, it was then realizing, like, how much of an impact there is when you do have someone pacing you. Because if you and I go run by ourselves, like, yeah, we're going to push ourselves naturally because we have an athletic instance also just from being in sport to push yourself. But when you have someone guiding you that's so invested also into you pursuing and achieving your goal, there's a layer of something of what the athlete mindset is like. You don't have to think so hard. Like, I. You're telling me all I have to do is follow right on your hip and I don't have to look at my watch. I just got to focus on breathing and then putting one foot in front of the other and finishing four laps. And for me, I saw that when I did that mile challenge with my coach. And then it was just recreating that for other people. And then I just, I would just ask people like, yo, when's the last time you timed a mile? And I got shocked by how many people didn't know. Yeah, especially ran, like, people run marathons. And then I don't know what my mile is. So it's like, oh, you can do this, or 26 miles, but you can't, or you don't know how to push it for one mile.
- [11:28]
A
That's interesting.
- [11:28]
B
So then it just. I went into the coach's mindset similar when I was playing football. And then when I got out of football going into personal training, where it was like, oh, I'm just going to help someone get to their goal, because I see the value in that. And it was also just acts of service in that way too.
- [11:42]
A
I love it. I think the part that's so key to it is the fact that you do get to collab with everyone. Most signatures here is like they, you know, they're telling a story about somebody or something that's educational whatnot. Yours is the ability to go to an athlete, go or like go to a Division 1 football player, go to a high rocks athlete, go to a marathon runner, go to whoever you want. Like you did one with like the couple that like, they cook a lot. You know what I'm saying? I forget. I forget who they are.
- [12:05]
B
Oh, yeah. Zach and T. Yeah.
- [12:06]
A
Like you get to basically do with anybody and then tap into their audiences and build like this bridge from your series to your audience, which I think is. Is huge as well. That not enough. Like I talk about character driven being a key element in the series. Yours is character and collaboration driven, which is so huge.
- [12:24]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. I love that.
- [12:25]
A
I absolutely love. And yeah, it's genius. I think you had done another series too. I don't know if. I don't think you still do it though, where it was like what, like a run and talk kind of.
- [12:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [12:34]
A
Why do you stop it?
- [12:34]
B
The logistical. So this is where then we talk about friction. Getting 30 minutes of footage and trimming that is just a little bit more friction. So now we're having to have someone who can ride on a bike that can also maneuver through downtown town lake. Yeah, that's another like wherever you're running. And that is a 30 minute shoot that you then need to compile into 90 seconds of the best content. The friction of shooting that was just a little bit more challenging versus I can go to a track, I know that it's going to take 10 minutes. I can minimize the time it's going to take to shoot, produce, and then upload. So that one was just more like, all right. The mic upstairs was really good because it was a dope way to just get to know people. And I think then that got iterated where like the Kate Max kind of took that in her own way. And I think people then iterated on that kind of like the mic'd up run almost, which I think is a great concept still. I just kind of was like, all right, it's a little bit more friction.
- [13:29]
A
To create it, which is so key because that's what we're talking about is like the ability to have operations that allow you to scale something correct and repeat it. That killed it. And there's a lot of friction on the editing side to. Yeah, like, you're saying, like, pull down 90 seconds to. Or 90 minutes or 30 minutes. Sorry, to 90 seconds or 60 seconds. It's tough. The other layer that I want to go into is archetypes. I think, you know, like, the best creators typically tap into multiple archetypes. Someone, something that is, like, educational or an architect that's educational on top of potentially being, like, inspirational or motivational or entertaining. What archetypes do you feel like you. Your content performs best in?
- [14:07]
B
I feel like it's changed over the years. Yeah. Like, I feel like when I started educational, by far, it was like, oh, these are things I'm doing for plantar fasciitis, for shin splints, for X, Y, and Z. And I think because running at the time was still in a. Like a. In a beginner stage in terms of content, it was easier to win off education because no other pure runners were making content, which is interesting. So I was a new runner that didn't really have all the knowledge, but I would just go through my own injuries and I would make my own mistakes and then document those things that I felt like those videos performed the best. Now I think it is more on the entertainment slash motivation, like, in kind of in the mix of that. Because now it's like, yeah, like, mild challenge is definitely more entertainment than it is educational, 100%. Me going after a race or going after a time is definitely more aspirational, motivational kind of content. And I think I've now even dabbled with some brands and shoots where it is pure entertainment. Like the tricks on golf stuff, right? Like, that was like a skit that's us going through a long shooting day, which I don't love doing those shoots. And there's production, there's producers, there's directors that saying, like, yo, I need you to run this line again. I think as I even dabble into newer stuff, Right. I think the reason I like challenging myself with different hobbies is that I can then become a student again and go back into that old mindset of, like, all right, well, like, how do I take this cycling and bike content into something that's more educational in the simple fact of, like, how to change a tire, how to change your flat, like, all those things. But I would say right now, probably less educational, more on the realm of aspirational and entertainment.
- [15:47]
A
But I think that's super interesting if you look at the space and be like, okay, running's taking off. I'm primed to be the resource for information. I'm gonna own that for a bit. Then I'm gonna evolve into other archetypes as I evolve as an individual. Right. Like, I can now evolve into the inspirational motivational side because I'm training for a triathlon or whatever the case may be. Right. Did you see that opportunity? Then you're like, hey, I'm gonna own this opportunity and just docu like, because your concept at the beginning was like almost like documenter plus educator.
- [16:15]
B
Yeah.
- [16:16]
A
You know what I mean? It was like this mix. Now I think it's like inspiration and documenter still. Yeah. What is the archetype now that you. You would place yourself in fully?
- [16:24]
B
I would say. And I think this is actually something I'm still trying to refine, to be honest. And I think to your point, when I first started, it's kind of like, it's. It's almost like relearning like who you are in a way. Right. And I think what worked in the past, it can still work now. But it's like you have to kind of refine. Is like, is that the best way to communicate the things I want to talk about? Because I think now, dude, there's probably. There's runners that know more, there's coaches that know more than me.
- [16:50]
A
Yeah.
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B
And granted, they might not be able to communicate it as succinctly, but like, they still probably know more. And I think even for me, it's kind of like that fear of like, oh, like, am I going to like sound dumb? Because it's like there probably is someone that knows that that's nerded out on this way more than I have, but I can still talk from my pov And I think that's something that even when I. And I heard Horozi say this all the time, like, it's like at the end of the day, it's not how to do something. It's like how this impacted me. Right. It's like how I ran a sub 3 hour marathon, how I fueled for this, how I did this. Like, and that's not saying that it's actually right. It's just saying that this is how I was able to achieve it. And I think when people go into education, it's always like how to. How to do something where that can be valuable, but it's subjective. At the end of the day, it is like, unless you're a Olympics level coach, can you actually like measure that this plan or strategy is always going to work for someone who has never ran before, and it's someone who's ran their whole life. Probably not. So when you go from, like, the how I did something, I think it's always an easier. It's a more forgiving path, because it's not saying that this is the right way all the time. It's just that this worked for me. Now, I think, to answer your question, like, where do I think I sit now? I actually feel like I am in that mix of, like, kind of more in the entertainment aspiration. Because for me, it's like, even in running, bro, like, I feel like I've kind of tapped into all the running, bro.
- [18:12]
A
For sure.
- [18:12]
B
Like, I don't get excited as much to make running content because I'm like, damn. Like, I've kind of, bro, for so long, bro, I've done all the concepts that you can think of. So it. It doesn't excite me in the same way. So I don't feel like I want to make the same content I made four years ago. Like, why would I go make that same video when, like, I did that? And then when I see new runners doing it, it kind of hits because it's like, it's new for them in that way. You know what? And I think for me, it's like, now I don't want to get so consumed in what I'm known for.
- [18:40]
A
Yeah.
- [18:41]
B
And I think that's why when I do these other, like, activities and hobbies, it's not going to perform as well in the initial. But it's like, can I take that ego hit and be like, damn, as a creator who's been in the game for a couple years, like, does that make me feel like I'm less than? Because it's like, damn, it's not hitting as much as if I did this running content.
- [18:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [18:59]
B
So it's kind of that balance where, yeah, I'm willing to throw in 20. I'm sprinkling 20% of stuff that's brand new that might not hit. And I think I'm okay with that in the long run because I don't want to be consumed in just the one thing. When I think about, like, the Paul brothers and people have iterated themselves, whether it was from vine to YouTube. Yeah. To boxing to WWE. Like, you need to evolve as. You evolve as a person as well. And if I just make the same running content, which I've seen people in the running space do that, and they're still making the same stuff, bro, and they've been in it for five plus years. It's like it just don't excite me as a creator anymore, you know?
- [19:33]
A
Yeah. What. So then looking at 2026, what's. What's your strategy? How are you going to go from here, 405,000 followers to say 500, 600, 700,000. But stay as excited because I think one big layer of content as well as the energy that goes into it, you have to be excited about what you're creating for it to perform well. So how are you thinking about 2026 on Growing and approaching content?
- [19:53]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think there's obviously, like, running is now part of, like, my DNA.
- [19:57]
A
Right.
- [19:58]
B
It'd be dumb to just be like, all right, I'm just going to like, completely stop running. Right. So I think there's ways to sprinkle it in still, or not even sprinkle in, but I think there's ways to keep it as a core and a foundation while sprinkling other things. So, like, I think for me, like, a very good transition would be try Ironman world, where you get to mix in, because running is a massive piece of those things. You're mixing these other elements of endurance, like worlds colliding. Correct. And I think for me too, like, in like the marathon itself, when I'm not going for a super fast time, I know I can do it. Like, you know, when people are like, oh, I want to see my limits, it's like, well, like once you do 50 marathons, it's like, I know what my limit is at this point, you know? Know. And I think the last time I got really excited about content and also a challenge was around Leadville. Like ultra marathons, like, where there's more variables of failure. There's not like an instant, like, bro, when I go to a marathon, like, there's. There's very little doubt I'm going to finish. You go to 100 mile race and you tow that line, like, there's a chance that you actually might not finish. Not from your will, but from the. Your body shutting down from so many other variables. So I think going into 26:1, I think even with content right now, I think there's a shift happening where if you're only trying to chase viral content, like, that's also not the most. That's not the best strategy to build depth with your following. Like, you might have a couple viral videos that go crazy. You might get a ton of followers. But, like, I think it's important to be mindful of how you earn followers in the same way of how you make money matters. Like if you're scamming people and you're just chasing bread, I think that's also not the best way to make money. So I think in the same way with followers, it's like I don't want to just get a shit ton of followers by just doing virally content. Do I think that those concepts at times can help and can you can sprinkle those things in? Yes. But I think right now I'm also just trying to get better at just talking raw to camera and just going iPhone footage, kind of like higher up wellness. My buddy Michael smoke like that kind of style where you're being more vulnerable talking about a topic and the friction in terms of production is minimal. I want to be able to pull my iPhone out, have a concept, talk about it in 45 to 90 seconds, put captions on it and upload it like that. 100% yapper. Yapper.
- [22:05]
A
That's something we talk about in cut 30. I know you've talked.
- [22:07]
B
I know Charles be talking about being the yapper is funny, but it's, it's.
- [22:10]
A
Like it's a format that is winning right now. Correct the yapper. Because it does. It just feels. Actually there was a guy on my team a few months ago, Brier, he started yapping on Tik Tok, Briar Cochran, he started yapping on TikTok, now has 100,000 followers. Has completely changed his life because he just yapped. And essentially we do is he would leave our meetings with some of the companies we work with, which are 8, 9, 10 figure brands. And then he would just yap about like, yo, this is what they're getting wrong. Here's what I'd fix. Here's how like we fix this piece of content. Bro. Took him to 100,000 followers pretty, pretty fast. But it's, it's, it feels intimate, it feels real. It feels, I hate to use the word authentic. Authentic, but it does. You know where he's, he's positioned. He's like, he was like a notepad and pencil and he's like talking and being. Doing like shit like this in his stuff where it's literally how he is in person. And it popped, bro. Like I do think there is a. And I'm not good at doing that. Like I need to work on. Not good at like not executing the content. I like to do the polish shit. I work to build a set. I like to do a production. And I want to do some more raw stuff where like I could just. Yeah. To the camera, you know, I'm saying, what are your content pillars look like this year?
- [23:14]
B
Not fully. It's funny, I was actually like going through hormones. You just had what's it called, Tony Robbins on. I was literally just listening to that on the drive here and I was like thinking about, yeah, like, where, like what are my content pillars? And like, like where do I want to pull ideation from? I think there is still a layer of like endurance kind of that ecosystem, but that is actually like a. Still just a sprinkle. Like, I think there's other things I want to ingrain into my content and I think the yapping stuff is actually an opportunity to layer in other stuff that is outside of just endurance. But no, that's still something where I'm going into New Year. It's like, I still is like unclear for me right now, but I think to your question before of like, like things I'm thinking for. For growth. It's like, I think there's a mix of the yapping stuff in addition to integrating other forms of endurance that isn't just running and so as in more.
- [24:06]
A
Tapping into the market.
- [24:08]
B
Correct.
- [24:08]
A
Like tapping into. Okay.
- [24:09]
B
Like, I, I think I think about TAM a lot. Right. Like total. Just one market.
- [24:12]
A
Like from a content perspective. I feel like nobody talks about about that.
- [24:15]
B
Yeah, I mean I, I think, I mean I haven't. I had a mentor my in. In my ecosystem that was always like, Matt, like even traveling to other places, you get. You enter into different tams. Right. So I think even for me it's like, how do I leverage travel in addition to other creators? Like, the reason the mile challenge was also so great is that you're hitting a whole another addressable market when you go travel to Southeast Asia. Like you get the massive audience of the, of Indonesia, the Philippines and all these things. So I think for me it's like there's a mix of doing in person stuff in other ecosystems.
- [24:46]
A
Yeah.
- [24:47]
B
In addition to figuring out ways that are collaborative with other people. And I think that's always been a strat for me. That's always like worked.
- [24:53]
A
Who do you think does a great job with.
- [24:55]
B
I mean, I think speed has by far in the creative world does it the best. Like even comparing speed to like other streamers. Like, Kai is a goat, but like he's. Kai typically still just stays behind his screen in his warehouse. But like when you see speed going out, like racing cheetahs, like going out to Africa, like he's also bringing his audience on the journey and teaching them things that most people, bro, don't. In the US don't have passports, bro. People don't leave the States. So you'll never understand the perspective of someone who lives on in Africa, in Indonesia, in any of these places. So I think when you. When I think about addressable market, it's like, all right, in running, the addressable market is solid. Is it the biggest? No. You can compare American football and marathons and running, it's significantly smaller now. Is marathon and running bigger than pickleball? Yes. But when I think about addressable market, it's like, all right, how do I tap into things that have new audiences? Golf, cycling, ironman. Right. These are somewhat adjacent because they're hobbyist activities, but it's a way to tap into things that are outside of what I'm currently known for.
- [26:03]
A
Yeah. Which I think, again, is so key because then you get to. You build bridges, bro. The more bridges you can build, the bigger the castle is going to be. And I think you're doing that. I think speed does a good job of that. Kai does it in a different way. Like, we brings different people into a streams.
- [26:15]
B
Absolutely.
- [26:15]
A
And I feel like we're trying to do it with our. With guests. And then even with my content, I have like, some collab series that I'm building on because I want to tap into other people's markets as well. Right. Like, even in some of the series that I'm creating, like, being able to collab with them, again, similar to yours, I'm tapping into the person that's a runner but wants to build a business eventually. And so therefore they're going to come to me to understand content. And that bridge is me, like, maybe doing something with you or doing something with, you know, whoever else. But again, like tam nobody talks about, depending on the market and category that you're in, you could have the most viral video in the world within your category, and it only gets 500,000 views. But then you could be in a completely different category. Tap into a different category and get 5 million views just because of the TAM that that category has. And that's one of the things that, like, dude, I actually, I dealt with this firsthand where one of my first videos that I made, like when I was getting back or getting into my content because I had first done Twitter content and Twitter content's more tech. Bros go on to Instagram. It's a completely different game. So when I was doing my first bit of content, I made a video about true classic, the.
- [27:13]
B
Yeah, the clothing break.
- [27:15]
A
But the first Iteration of the video that I made was about landing pages, and I had fucking like a thousand followers at the time. Landing pages, there is no Tam. That Tam is maybe. I mean, you go into LinkedIn, bro, and you put conversion rate optimization, and there's probably a hundred thousand people total in the world that would have that in their job title. So talking about landing pages, the TAM is way too small for that video to pop, right? Then what was. I actually just made a video about this about like how I test concepts if I think something has legs. If I look at the data and I'm like, okay, the like to share ratio is very high, but then my packaging isn't there. Like my maybe my skip rate isn't high or low enough. Maybe my average watch time isn't high enough. Then I just have a packaging and like storytelling problem. So I looked at my first iteration of the true classic video and I made a second one. The second one then was like me talking about true classic story, but I still took two of like a marketing funnel perspective. It was like, this is the funnel that took them from investing $3,000 into, you know, now $150 million company. And again, like, I looked at the. The data, the data was like, hey, there's something here, but you're not packaging it properly so that it can reach a larger audience. The third iteration of that video, bro, and I think if you go back, like, I literally hit these back to back to back because I was like in such a I need a win phase that the third iteration of the video was this is True Classics $150 million marketing playbook that, I mean, if you, like, pay attention to my content, that's now a pillar in my content. You know what I mean? That's a format that I do repeatedly. But the key was, look at the difference between this is the. The secret to landing pages that convert from $150 million brand to this is $150 million mark brands marketing playbook, right? The TAM, just by how I position the information increased drastically. It went from like, you can be like a creator could be interested in that because they might want to build their own brand one day. That then the marketer who actually work, you know, is a marketer for a brand could be interested in that. The founder could be interested in that, right? Like all of a sudden I'm talking to a lot of individuals around one topic. And it wasn't that I need to make the video specific, actually that I needed to more generalize how I presented the information. The Information across all of the content was actually basically the same. Yeah. I still talked about their landing pages, I still talked about their funnel, but literally how I opened it up to the market and to and to everyone was the key element. Right. And I think that's actually something that you've done well too, is when you were first doing your educational content, it was a bit more general. Correct. Right. And that allowed you to grow fast. Like, as an example, I remember you and I did a video or like, when you first started working with Kane, I got 1.5 or 1.6 million views, where I was like, this is your warm up for speed sessions. Correct. Right. Got 1.5 million views. It was. But if it would have been like, here's the speed session I do for, you know, this issue. While I'm competing for this, all of a sudden that market is tiny, closes. Right. And so there's that layer as well, from a, a tan perspective of how you package your ideas and how you position those ideas. Where, like, I can collab with you, increase my tam by, you know, going into your category, but I can also look at the content I'm creating, generalize it if I need to grow. Right. Like, again, there's a difference between making content to get followers and then making content for your followers. You're trying to make content to get followers. You need to be more general within your category. And that's another thing that I think a lot of people and. Or creators, Brands. Creators miss on a daily basis.
- [30:47]
B
Absolutely. I mean, I think about this often, even with like the boom of Hiroff in the past year and a half, two years in America at least, because it's been pretty big globally. People that then make their whole Instagram page, like high rocks focus. Like, if you think about Hyrux in the grand scheme of things, most people don't know what Hyrox is still like. You go ask Joe Schmo as at HEB right now, like, they're not gonna actually know. Like, do people know what a marathon is? Probably not. Do people know what the sport of golf is? Most likely. But Hyrox is so specific where it's like, when people are like, what I ate before Hyrax or how I trained for Hyrox, it's like, bro, like, that's actually not the best way to position that content. Even though, to your point, that's probably serving not to get new audience. That's just serving the people that already follow you. Because if someone follows someone that's deep into Hyrox, because they actually want to improve at the sport, all those things. But I think a lot about these newer things have come up in the past year or two when people. I can kind of see, like why video doesn't perform well even though someone might have a small following. It's like it's too hyper specific. And at times to your point, it's like you got to look at the bigger picture and see how do I take the same concept and integrate it in a way where maybe someone who doesn't even follow the sport could still watch and, and digest it. Which I think for many times that's not the case. On how people are thinking content.
- [32:05]
A
No, no. I think people sometimes go too specific and think everybody is going to understand what they're saying or what they're talking about. With cut 30, we deal with this all the time where people think that other people care about them when they don't even know that individual. And I think that's an issue as well where like I have no clear expectations around what you're going to deliver on a daily basis. Why does, why do you think like your journey, like, why do you think your journey is going to interest me versus somebody that I've been paying attention to for months now? And it's not to say they won't, but again, it's all about how things are positioned right. You have to figure out how do I get someone to care. If I say I'm training for Hyraks, you know, and I'm going for this goal time, it's like, well, there's a million people doing that. But what if I'm like, yo, I just left my job, I just left my full time job because I have one singular goal of becoming a professional athlete. So I'm training to hit this time. All sudden you made it, you made the story a lot more general where it's like, yo, I'm trying to buy into this. You know what I mean?
- [33:00]
B
Like, yeah, how many people can relate to leaving a corporate job?
- [33:03]
A
Yeah. And so there's. There's a brand on on IG called Bad Ombudis. I don't know if you've seen them. I don't think so. I've talked about them quite often. They probably have 160 to like 180,000 followers. The two founders are Hank and, and Sam. They're a husband and wife couple. Okay. They have a series bro, that it's like, again, let me take a step back. When I left my job at Collective and I leave Collective and I'M like, hey, this is day one of building a company. Not that interesting. Right. And it's, it's, it's not as, it's not as attention grabbing, it's not as retention focused and you're not really going to buy in bad. Ominous. On the other end goes, hey, my name is Hank and I just left my corporate job to start a frozen bean and cheese burrito company with my life. I mean with my wife. Sorry.
- [33:48]
B
Yeah.
- [33:48]
A
You see how that position that, that. Yeah. All of a sudden that I'm way more intrigued. Positions it? Yeah, bro. To the fact that like you're going to buy in because you're like, well, damn. Okay, first off, building a company with husband and wife, that's not easy. Frozen bean and tree, bean and cheese company. How's that going to work? And you just left your job to do this whole time. And like you are not like raising money like using your savings. Right. Like there's all these other layers that all of a sudden make the content extremely interesting. And so you know, the other like this almost could sound like I'm contradicting what I said earlier about like being very general. But it's like you have to generalize the story but get specific with the details. That makes sense. Right. The details are what makes it interesting, how you position it. So that's what's going to retain somebody and like build affinity. But then like how you position the story is then how you general it for, you know, mass America or mass whatever to be able to buy in. Correct. Which again, things that I think you do very, very well where your knowledge is specific knowledge, but how you position the content is more generalized.
- [34:53]
B
Yeah. I mean I think in that always came out from a place of like when I thought when I first got into writing was like I didn't really know anything. Right. It's like as a beginner, like what were the things that were going on in my head that I felt like were the most common questions that I would get asked and like I would steer all my content to be around those specific things. And I think for a lot of people when they first got do anything, it's like, yo, I'm, I'm the type that's like, I'm going on YouTube, bro. I want to know what the best TV is. Like I'm going through a remodel. I want to know what the best appliances like I just naturally YouTube way right now 100 I'm gonna look things up before I make a purchase on something. And I think in the same way with running, it was that it was like, oh, there's people not really talking about how to fuel or what shoes to get, or X, Y and Z. And I think that made it broad enough where even though it was around this specific thing, something that a mentor might always say was like, how do you make this palatable to the mom, to the father, to the who fill in the blank that the person that's not in their mid-20s looking to run, it's like, how do you make this available for them? And I think I always thought about content in that way because also I always saw myself as a creator, first a media company and then a runner, athlete, fill in the blank. So I always thought of, okay, well, how do I make this available to more people? And I still think about content that way now. And it's like, I remember I saw this clip from Gary Vee, like, in which I actually really. It made me even want to double down further on, like, these random activities and stuff, because he was basically just talking about how, like, now with platforms, it doesn't matter if you have a thousand followers or a million followers. Like, it's kind of a clean slate, because it's not just your following that's seeing your content. It's like there's a reason that someone could post something about a sparkling water that they love, sparkling water with a thousand followers, that video can go viral. And in the same way, he was basically saying, like, if you have interest in things that are outside of what you've been talking about, now is the best time to kind of test those things. Because if someone like me is into golf now, I could start talking about golf. And it's not that I have 400,000 followers that's going to make those people see it. It could be a video that new people see. And I think now we're in that net new, because the algorithm, it's not really accounting for how many people are following you right now. It's saying, all right, if the content is good enough, it will be shown to more people. And whether you've been making tech content your whole time, five years of tech content, you could then start talking about running or fill in the blank of other activities, and it could still blow up. And most times those things could be very general. Like, I would say, relatively, golf is general. There's more specifics of it, but it's still relatively general for mass population.
- [37:22]
A
What I think is key that you talked about right there is you're layering in things that make you one of none.
- [37:27]
B
Right.
- [37:27]
A
Versus one of many. Where in the past when you first, like, if you're just doing running content now, you'd be one of many. Even if you have more followers than other people, you'd still be one of many because somebody could look at your content and be like, yo, I'm just going to remake that video. You know, I'm saying I'm going to go to a different track and maybe I'm going to change like one element, but I could remake that video. But all of a sudden, Matt Choi is the home builder. Here's the, the. He's remodeling his kitchen. He's the home builder, he's golfing. He's the traveler. Adventurer. He's. All of a sudden you're now positioned to be one of none because, like, the individual who's just doing running can't replicate all the other things that, that you're doing. Right. And. And they're probably not going to. To want to. Right. And so I think it's. So it's different for a brand than a creator in this sense. You know, I think as creators and as, as individuals and people who want to be known for specific things, it's very easy to be like, oh, I'm only going to talk about content as like, sorry, I'm talking about me. And fair. Yeah, that lens. I'm only going to talk about content. And honestly, to date, I've majority of my content has been about content super meta. But there's a reason there's a gym in here, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm gonna start layering in, like, what other content marketer, you know, is gonna like, power clean 315. Yeah. You know what I'm saying all of a sudden. And not to like, I'm not trying to glaze myself, but all of a sudden I become. I'm in like, category one of none. By. There's not a lot of people that are going to be the person who's like, into fashion, into content and training and maybe competing in X, Y, Z thing. Oh, and a dad. Right. You have to look at your life and not try to like, use your life as it. Through this performative sense, but look at your life as like, what are all the things that actually make me interesting and different? Okay. If I want that to be a part of my content, leverage it. I would love for people to be able to look at my content and be like, he's a good dad and he's trying to become a better dad and he's sharing that side of himself as well. On top of, oh, he's also running a business. And, like, training, like, that's super interesting. And then, like, he gives me free advice, right? Whereas, like, you're doing the same thing. It's like this idea of landing and expanding. Like, land and, like, do something really well. Understand how the platforms work, how content works, where your skills lie. And then, you know, once you have a system that works, like, I always know what I can create that's going to work about content. Now expand, expand and find the things that differentiate you from anybody else. Because, bro, like, I rather compete in a race where I'm the only one running facts. You know what I mean? The second. Yeah, the second I. I only categorize myself within. Within, you know, one place I'm running a marathon.
- [39:58]
B
You put yourself in a box, too, yo. My mentor always says this word, fluency, and he means it in the sense of everything you're talking about. Like, when you step into the room, you can relate to the guy that's training in CrossFit. You can relate to the founder, the business owner who's trying to get into content, but also, like, how to market. You can also relate to fathers. You can relate to being a husband. Like, like fluency in the sense of, like, when you step into a room, do you have the ability to, like, change hats? And I think for a lot of creators, they don't because most times when you get known or popular or famous off of the thing that you're most known for, you're not going to dabble into these other things and.
- [40:38]
A
Or you're scared to.
- [40:39]
B
Absolutely. Because then you're like, oh, my God, like, dog, my content's going to suffer. Like, you know, my audience doesn't want to see me do X, Y and Z. People create that narrative. Like, my audience doesn't want to see me do this. So then they're just like, all right, I'm just going to pander to my audience. And because the performance is not as great, I'm only going to post what is working from the optics. And I think that's a. Even though from the short term, that might achieve better business success, but in the long run, you fall into the trap 100. And I think even that thing with Hormozi and Tony Robbins, which I've only listened half, like, though you'll see it's actually super dope to see Tony Robbins, in a way, humble her mosey and.
- [41:16]
A
Mosey was shaking at the beginning.
- [41:17]
B
That boy was like, Bro, he was a little nervous, but even, like, in Tony would basically just challenge his thought of, like, yo, why do you think that you need to suffer so much for your business? Like, is life not more meaningful than just to grind and only work? Like, if you only see yourself in that avenue, even as successful as Hormozi is, it's like, what are the areas of your life are you not living out to your full potential? And I think there's so many good nuggets there that Tony Robbins just dropped on him. And I think there's a lot of respect there from both sides. And I think it's someone that Hormozi can look at and really be like, damn. Like, this man is very successful in many aspects of his life. Like, I think Tony Robbins had a fluency level from his businesses to philanthropic stuff to vc. Like, there's so many things that he understands.
- [42:02]
A
Yeah.
- [42:02]
B
That I think when you look at someone who's well rounded, I look at someone like Tony Robin. Like, damn, that makes sense why he's successful not only just in business, but in relationships, in his faith, and in so many other buckets. And I think to your whole. This whole point, it's like, how do you build more fluency as a creator, as a business owner? And I think those are things that people should start thinking about, because as we get further into AI, it's going to be easy to recreate these same concepts that we're talking about. Like, the mile challenge will be easy to recreate in the next couple of years, if not months. Like, you could just punch it and be like, yo, here's a picture of me and Alex Garcia. I need you to do a mile challenge. His goal is 8 minutes. Let's just say he finished at 7:25. Use this video to create the same cuts and little motivational sound bites, and boom.
- [42:43]
A
Give me that.652.
- [42:46]
B
Get himself high.
- [42:47]
A
Get us. No, I'm aligned with you. You know, something that you're touching on that I think people don't really talk about from a. You know, people never talk about the mindset of a creative. And I think it's. It kind of looks. Gets looked at as a first world problem. You know, like, you make content for a living and I get it. But someone that I worked for a long time ago, same part, recently said he's like, first world problems are still problems, you know, and I understand making content is. Is different than like the mom that has three jobs and is, like, trying to put, you know, her kids through school and she's, you know, she's, she's sacrificing on a different level than we are. But there are still issues that creators have because you always feel like you maybe have to be on. You maybe always feel like you have to publish something or you're not going to be relevant. And so some of these things, I'm more so curious on taking the angle of playing collegiate sports and, or playing football. I, I would say football more than. And I might be wrong, there's probably other sports, but like, at least how it's portrayed in America, football more than most sports, you get degraded as an athlete from a coach, which I think is good in many cases to build up like the self esteem and the confidence and the ability to like not maybe not take hits and fall. Right. And not to.
- [43:57]
B
Or did you just get back up?
- [43:58]
A
Yeah, bro, like, there's that D. Wade commercial, I don't know, probably 15 years ago where it was like, it was when he was signed a Converse, it was fall seven times, get up eight. I don't know if you remember that.
- [44:07]
B
That I was a big DA fan. I remember.
- [44:09]
A
I was too. I was. I was too. Yeah. And so I think for individuals like yourself and myself, where we played collegiate sports, we could roll with the punches. Well, you know, and we maybe don't get imposter syndrome as much as like somebody else because, you know, like, you worked maybe from a third string to a first string and the whole time you knew you were a first string. You know what I'm saying? It's like you can make content through that same lens of, yo, I'm not first string right now, but I know I have potential to be first string. Whereas. And Chris Williamson's actually talked about this where he said, you know, when he first started podcasting or sorry, when he was younger, like, he would get bullied and he was kind of like the outcast. And he, he spent a lot of time by himself. And it still sometimes creeps up to him a bit now because he's maybe talking to a huberman, right? Or he's talking to a Rogan. And you can have those moments where like, you let yourself from the past come into who you are now, which are two completely different people. And I'm saying this all to say, how would you encourage the individual who is looking at content, who is looking at yourself? Maybe myself, maybe the hermosi being like, I can be that, but I can't overcome these, like, maybe mental blocks and these mental hurdles to say to like, get my first Piece of content out. I'm worried about my friends, I'm worried about my family. I'm worried about, you know, the comment, what would you say to that individual? Because there's a lot of potential out there that never sees the light of day because they're too scared and too timid and the confidence isn't there to be able to publish something.
- [45:30]
B
I mean, it's a great question, I think, of the cost of not doing anything. I think that's something I think about often. It's like, yeah, I made a video the other week about like the fear of failing and why that stops most people. And like in this, in this conversation, it's the same thing, right? It's like if I post that first video, if I try to run for the first time, if I try to bike for the first time, like, yo, there's a legit chance that you might not make it, that you're. The video is going to flop, that you might not finish the run, that you might not finish the bike ride, whatever the case might be. But I think there's way more to learn if you try and fail than there is if you do nothing.
- [46:09]
A
There's no data points. If you do nothing.
- [46:10]
B
If you do nothing, you're always going to live in doubt of like, I don't know, like, I actually, like, I thought about it a lot, but I never took action. So I think for most people it's how do you overcome that fear? And I think actually if you have that significantly, I would then try to, to build confidence in things that are, have nothing to do with content. Yeah, like do it with your health, do it with a habit that's bad. Like try to stop smoking cigarettes, try to drink more water. Like, like build confidence in other areas that you can then that it can kind of habit stack into something bigger and something a little bit more uncomfortable. Because putting yourself online is more public. Like, you stopping smoking cigarettes is something that you can do on your own time. Like, no one's going to really evaluate your performance besides yourself. But when you do things online, now that there you've allowed external people to also judge and provide their opinion, there's a little bit more of a fear. And I think for people, if you really are scared and there's a lot of doubt, I would start to do things that are very small and minuscule in your own life and try to build confidence in that way to then put yourself online. Because putting content, it's like, I think a lot of people can wrap their head around it because it's easy now, Alex. Like, yo, there's six. There's people that are successful online. There's people that have left their corporate jobs. So I think people from an aspirational, like, viewpoint, they're like, yo, I want to do that. Like, I want to leave my job at Accenture. I want to be able to go quit my nine to five. Like, I think people can see it, but they don't see what that side of the world also has to go through. And I think back to that first world problems of, like, yeah, it is first world problem. Like, oh, like, I have to make this branded content for this brand that pay me money. Like, I need to make a video. I need to edit. Like, yeah, it doesn't seem like a big thing, but for a lot of people, it's more the fear of, like, how do I overcome my own voice? Like, the fear of me failing. And then. Then what people around me are going to say, which is typically your loved ones at first. And then it's random strangers that at some point, dog, you get callous to it. Like, there's a lot of people that don't like me. Like, Doug, I was filming this morning. This random dude's like, where's your video crew? I'm like, oh, they're right here, actually. And then buddy just flicked me off randomly. No way. Swear right on Congress. Like, and, like. And granted, I've done dumb things in the media world and being in the public perception that is also very easy to hate. But I've been able to build that thick skin to your point, from when I played college football to when coaches doubted me, when teammates doubted me. And you have to build enough thick skin to be like, all right, well, how long am I going to allow the opinions of other people to dictate my life? And I think that's a hard. It's an easy thing to say, a hard thing to implement. So someone listening to this, I would say, you need to build that muscle. And it could start with daily habits that then lead you into being like, dog. Like, how much? Like, yeah, I don't want to. I don't want my mom to keep saying that I'm overweight and I'm fat. Like, I'm going to take control of my life, my health. And I think health is a great place to start for a lot of people because it helps build confidence, and then that can spiral into so many other things.
- [49:00]
A
The way you framed it in my mind is, like, if I need to build up the confidence to get content out there because I want to be a creator, then I need to look at okay, what is a creator? A creator isn't just a person who publishes. A person just creates. Right? So can I build habits around just creating to start? So that can be, hey, for the next 15 days I'm going to record five clips on my phone and then I'm going to record a talking head. But like I'm a record five videos over the next five days where I'm just talking to the camera. I'm not going to publish it. And you slowly build this proof that says I am that to the point where then you have the courage to then post because I think you're spot on. It is, it is terrible to live with the thought of what if? And it's much easier to live with the thought of or sorry with the proof of I tried. Right? I would hate to die and be like man, like could I have made it to the NFL? You know, like, could I have been a good creator? Could I have started that business? I have, you know, worked been this at my job. Because like not everyone's built to build a company. Not everyone's built to be a creator. Like there are so many, there's so many different aspects of, of Light that it, it you don't want to ever have to look back at the lens of what because the, the try at least gives you the confidence to be like I'm down to try the next thing. Absolutely. What if and always being in place what if and never getting to I tried is also part of the reason that you get stuck in what if right. Like, cause you don't have that concept competence to take that step right? Or to, to do the thing which you know, like I, I, I think you're spot on. Like to, to think about it, do that povo get some win. They don't need to be the big wins. That, that's the ultimate win if that's your championship. Like getting the piece of content out.
- [50:48]
B
I think like, and I think for some people by doing those little wins it gives them something to talk about. Right? Like I remember home Rosie saying this too, which I keep referencing her Mosi because I haven't actually been so deep into his stuff. But I remember this like this really hitting for me a couple years ago. It's like he was like yo, do stuff. Talk about the things you do. Do more stuff. And like first dog for someone who's really thinking right now, like you quitting cigarettes, you quit and smoking like that could be you Doing something and talking about that journey. How many people could relate to someone who's addicted to smoking? How many people could relate to someone who's died of lung cancer? Like, even in that little example which I just literally just thought of, it's like, yeah, that act of doing that, you're making one step and then talking about what that feels like, the withdrawal, like, I slept so badly, like I couldn't eat. And like, you could then go further into that rabbit hole. What could then expand into and then what confidence that can bring from a creative standpoint. But I think generally speaking, for most people, even outside of the cigarette example, what stuff do you actually know or do that you can speak on, not that you're the expert in, but that you can just speak on your POV from? And I would always look at that to start. It's like if you actually now are past the stage of the fear and you actually feel like you can make videos and you're not so scared of it, like, what do you do day to day that you can speak on? And I would start there. And sometimes that could be being a father, right? It could be, you know, in, in the things of what your. Your work. Like, I think there's so many things that we doubt our knowledge of as humans because we feel like it's not a value, but value is just an exchange of information and knowledge, right? So it's like if you. Someone can teach me a lot about what it's like to be a, a general contractor. Like, Alex is joking, saying that I'm like a home builder. It's like, I'm not doing much in the house, like, but someone who's implementing the electric electrical work or doing the hard wiring, like, they can teach me those things. I think at times people don't also realize, like, I'm also just human too.
- [52:42]
A
You know, because there's a lot of. With cut 30, it's. It's for people that are either A, beginners or B, they want to like, scale their content, right? And so a lot of people come in there and like, look, I have all these ideas. I got my pov, but I'm nervous about the hateful comments. Like, what do I do? Like, if somebody says something hateful, like, do I do I respond? It's probably going to affect me. You, you're uniquely positioned to answer this question or help give people perspective because, like, you've gotten a lot of hate online, you know? And the thing that I go back to is if those individuals knew you and they saw like what I would say, you know, you easily one of the most positive individuals I've ever met. Like, there's probably two people that I would classify and you're one. You know what I mean? Like, you're not two. In that case, I've never seen you bitch. I've never seen you complain about something. Even when those things happen, you weren't on there, like, trying to complain about the race officials and like, the other people that maybe got in my way, whatever. Like, you weren't doing that, right? And then on the other side, it didn't stop you from pursuing things that you wanted to pursue. Right? Like, you didn't see that and then take that as like, oh, like, maybe I should switch up. Maybe I should not film my races. Right? How do you deal with that online and not letting it affect who you are as an individual? Because I think people will take a comment and it'll. They'll be like, oh, I need a change. Versus maybe there's 20 people that hate Matt Choi, but there's thousands of people that would never say a bad thing about me, right? How do you deal with that and not let it affect who you are and then also what you do?
- [54:11]
B
I think, well, one, hearing feedback is good. I think when you hear feedback, right? I remember Tim Grover said this. Like, feedback and criticism is the same. It's just about how you hear it. Now. Some people hear feedback or criticism, they're like, dog, like, like their woe is me. They're like, yo, I didn't do that. I didn't mean to do that. They make their excuses. Other people hear that and they're like, yo, you're right, actually, like, I need to improve in that. And I think even for me, like, I'm not blinded by it. It's like, I don't look at negative feedback or comments and I'm like, oh, they're totally wrong. Like, how could. How dare they have that opinion? Like, yo, sometimes it's valid. And I think as humans we should. No, no, no one should have enough pride or ego to feel like there's not room for improvement. So I think that would be what I would say.
- [54:53]
A
First, you're very self aware.
- [54:55]
B
I'm very self aware, bro. Like, I don't look at that, Alex. I'm like, they're totally wrong. I think, like, nah, sometimes people be right and like, equally as creators, you can understand that you're wrong and still move on. Which I think is another part of your question. It's like, how does one continue to Put stuff out there without the fear of, like, oh, my God, like, failing again. Because, like, to your point, like, that moment, even in New York City, bro, was a massive failure for me. Like, I lost out on a massive opportunity with Runna, who got acquired by Strava, and now Strava's about to go ipo, and I had equity in that. Like, that's a massive deal to lose. And, like, does that hurt my ego? I didn't know that, Like, a little bit. But, like, does that do. Do I find my identity in that? No. And I think for a lot of people to answer the original question is not living your life based on the opinions of people that don't know who you are. And I think that is probably the overarching theme of how I deal with criticism while still accepting the fact that some people are right online, that their criticism and their judgment is correct and that I can still improve. Like, I don't sit on my high horse looking at negative feedback and saying, like, dog, like, I'm not listening to them, bro. I'm. I'm. I'm too good for that. It's like, nah. Like, I can still be like, yo, you guys are right. But I'm still going to continue to do what I feel like I'm called to do on this earth, which is, for me, it's storytelling. It's. It's documenting. It's. It's. It's challenging myself. And all those things fit in the umbrella of creating content and endurance activities. But I think for someone who's sitting there, that's starting out, that is. Is hearing feedback, that's. That's not. That's negative. It's not allowing that opinion to dictate who you are. And I've never blocked someone on my Instagram. Like, when people tell me, like, yo, why, like, you just letting people. Ironically, it's like, yo, I. Like, I'm good with that. Like, yo, people, I like having receipts. It's like, the dude that flicked me off today's money, it's like, that's cool. Like, I genuinely thought, like, he probably follows you whether he does or he does. Like, I hope he. I hope that that action helped made him feel better. And for people online, bro, sometimes people posting negative stuff online, it makes them feel better because they just could be going through something bad. They could be miserable people. Like, they could just be angry. And that makes them, in that little microseconds, a bit of it. It releases that, right? So for me, it's like, if I'm Secure in who I am. Like, from someone who doesn't have a profile picture on Instagram. Like, wait, can I really feel that upset about what they have to say now with all that being said? Al, I will say this. Like, I also think that I'm also human. Like, do I like seeing those things? Like, no, I don't think. I wake up in the morning, I'm like, yo, I want to be the most hated creator in the running space. I don't ever say that. So I'm not going to say everything I just said and be like, it doesn't affect me at all. Like, I think that I can still admit that I don't want to be hated, but I don't live my life based on those opinions.
- [57:38]
A
Yeah.
- [57:39]
B
And I think that dichotomy is important to understand. It's me basically saying that I'm self aware to understand that I'm very flawed as a human being and that I can understand why I get hate while still saying, like, all right, those guys might not. They might hate me, they might have their opinion, but they actually don't know me. So I'm not going to live my life based on what they're saying. Even though at times what they're saying might have some truth behind it. And then that's where my own self awareness, I was like, yo, I need to improve. I need to do things smarter, more efficiently, with less opportunity to get ridicule. Right. And I think also part of this is following the rules. And I think that's how I think about negative feedback and commentary. It's. It's kind of part of the game.
- [58:20]
A
Yeah, it is, it is. I always tell people, if somebody's coming into your comment section and flaming you and they don't know you, I promise you, you're one of like 20 that day. You know what I mean?
- [58:32]
B
Like, they got a list, bro.
- [58:34]
A
You're not, like, you're. It's not a personal thing. It's just who. Who they are as individual. Because that happened to you today. I remember when you and I ran probably a year, year and a half ago, the inverse happened. Car stopped. Yo, I love your content. And like they were like, we were driving down or we were running down Easies or Chavez. Yeah, right. And like literally someone stop stopping their car in the middle of traffic to like just holler at you and like say that you've. That they love your content. You've helped them. So it's like, it's very easy to ignore this.
- [59:06]
B
Absolutely.
- [59:07]
A
Memory and put this one on this pedestal to be like, oh, my gosh, I'm this and I'm that versus, like, you could be someone's hero. You could be someone's like, resource of information or motivation, whatever. And like, don't forget that. Where I want to segue and end the pod is monetization. Because I think you're uniquely positioned to talk about monetization because you've done a great job of being able to. To monetize as a creator. And, you know, like, you were monetizing early, right? Like, yeah, you know, you're monetizing three, three, four years ago when I, when I first met you and doing. And doing it well. But it's evolved so much since then because content in the game and, and the platforms have evolved so much since then. Where I want to go with it is where, where and how do you see the partnerships with brands evolving and kind of like the landscape changing into. Because it's no longer like, I'm going to pay you for one deliverable, three deliverables, right? Like, they're coming to you because they want to form partnerships. They want you to be part of their ecosystem. And like, like, they'll look at Matt Choy's. Matt Choy is a content pillar within our strategy. Right from your side because you're like, I'm on the other end of like, the brand side, so I understand. I'm like, looking at strategy and being like, okay, does Matt Choi. Matt Choi fits exactly what we want to pursue. How do we bake them into our strategy? And now on your end, you're. You have to then negotiate. You have to come up with cool concepts potentially. Like, you have to close the deal. Right? How do you see that relationship evolving in 2026 based on essentially your four or five years of monetizing your, you know, your audience and your information, education, etc.
- [60:51]
B
I think of it in two ways. I. I think that there is still some of that kind of pay to play.
- [60:57]
A
Yeah.
- [60:57]
B
Hey, Al, here's this concept from this brand massive company. Like, this is their budget. X, Y and Z one video. Get it up. That kind of just, hey, handshake. We're done after this one, right? I think there's still that from the big brands because I think when you working with big budgets, a lot of times it's just for exposure. They don't really care about conversions. So I think that there's still an element of that which I dabble into. I think this section you're talking about now is kind of building out Partnerships and potential longer form campaigns that the audience doesn't feel like it's just like, oh, this is a one off and they will never see this brand again. And I think when I think about those brands and those kind of campaigns and partnerships, it's one, how do we find integrated concepts that we can run with that fit for this brand? And I think, for example, like the mileage challenge could be one when we talk about food or nutrition, like fueling strategies, what I eat in a day is another concept that, hey, how does Waterloo fit into a category like that? How does an electrolyte brand fit into a category like that? And obviously when we're working with that kind of tier 2, tier 3 brand budgets are just different. Like I'm not expecting what Amazon pays or what Nike would pay with kind of that tier 2 or tier 3 brand. So a lot of times I'm not taking as big of a check. So how do we then in terms of monetization think of deal structure? It's all right, well like does this brand have a product that I can earn commission or sales off of? Yes or no? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Does this brand have potential like upshare? Like, is there, is there a potential like equity play? Or is there a potential of having some ownership rights to not just the content but also to the sales of the product? Then obviously there's going to be some form of retainer structure or some form of compensation that is driven solely on the deliverables you're going to have. But that's how I think about monetization now. It's like, yeah, there's a lot of brands I think I can fit in to the content I'm already making now. How much budget do they have and is there upside to those kind of products and brands? Like that's kind of where I sit now, where it's like being in this for five years. It's like I've seen I've worked with the biggest brands in the world, I've worked with smaller brands and helped them grow. I've heard worked with mid tier brands and earned equity stake, been able to help them with growth and all those things. But now as I sit back, it's like a mix of all that stuff. Also I think down the line for me, it's like to the, what you said earlier, it's like, ideally I'd like to have my own product. Right. I think that's ultimately the biggest play for creators. It's yeah. Now becoming a creator, bro, is Also, you're just signing for a job like you're a billboard for XYZ company. And ultimately, how long one wants to do that for is about relevancy. It's about the ambition to continue to do that. But I think at some point, even for me, it's like, all right, having my own product, having my own business would ideally be the exit strategy. Because being a billboard for another company, yeah, it pays well in the short term, but long term, you don't really have any ownership of it.
- [63:52]
A
Unless. Yeah, unless you're getting the equity stakes.
- [63:54]
B
Which is correct. Which is a massive conversation.
- [63:56]
A
Yeah. And sometimes it's just very rare.
- [63:58]
B
The runners of the world, which we, if we. If you want, we could chat more about it. But like the runners of the world, that deal structure and having a company that actually exists within your time of being a part of it, al it don't happen. You and I know a lot of companies, a lot of brands, a lot of founders that are. That are gung ho, that are. That are built to be a founder, but their company just doesn't reach that scale to actually get bought.
- [64:17]
A
Because the other layer of that is it's not just the idea. Like, you're not just buying into the idea. You have to buy into the other 20 people running that company. Are they dogs? Absolutely. Right. Are they individuals that can get this from a hundred thousand users to a million to 10 million to 50 million? Right. If they're not, I rather take my money. Absolutely. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'd rather take my bread because then that equity could. Could not be anything, you know, And I think that's such a. A huge thing to think about. I forgot it was. It was Kobe who talked about this. I don't remember what interview, but. Or no, I do remember what interview, but I don't remember exactly what he said, but I, I remember the premise where he asked Kobe, like, when you go to a company like consulting or you're consulting a team, what do you. What are you looking for before you invest in them? He was like, I'm looking at people who do. They have the culture where they want to be uncomfortable, essentially. And I'm butchering it a bit. But it's like that thought of, are they there saying, hey, like, I'm tasking you with. I'm tasking you with this. You have the skill set to be able to do it. You haven't done it yet, but you take that task and you're like, bet I'll learn. I'll I'll get it done and it'll be great. That is the individual that then, like, he or the companies that then he said, have a winning culture. Have like the mamba, essentially culture. If you're taking an equity deal, like, you have to be able to look at the team and be like, are they that? Because if they're not, and it's like, yo, they don't, they don't work on Fridays. You mean they work four, four days. Yeah. You know, like, I might give them who knows how much. Like, I could give them a million dollars of exposure, $10 million of exposure, depending on, you know, what the deal is and how long it is. Like, give them $10 million worth of exposure. I could have all these things that go viral and at the end of the day, I get nothing. You know what I mean? It is, you know, what you're saying is very valid where, like, I think it's like the best almost depending on the position you're in, is a hybrid model, right. Like, maybe over time the equity vest, but you're still getting a, maybe a retainer to be like, hey, I know it takes time to, to make the content. I'll pay you for your time. And then, you know, performance and overall there'll be volume and like, extra things that you do. Like, maybe the contract didn't require you to do stories, but you hit stories every, every week. Like, you want to get that help that company succeed. Like, I think that model is. Is best when it comes to. Yeah. Taking ownership and monetizing. The other thing I think is very interesting. I do think it's where influencer and kind of creator marketing is. Is going. Is. Yes, there's of course going to be the companies that, that pay you $5,000 for a post, 10,000, whatever that number is. But then there's the company that kind of, like I mentioned, looks at you and says, I want you to be a part of my strategy. Right. Like, I want you to. I'm going to look at you as a channel because we align, our values align, et cetera. And where I think a creator, how a creator could be smart about this is go to the brand and pitch the brand on something that almost like through the lens of a subscription model, if you pitch a brand on six months of the mile challenge, and you're like, hey, I'm going to do a mile challenge, but I'm going to maybe tweak this one thing to like, add your product in it, right? Like, let's say it is a hydration Drink. So at the end of the, like you, you, you know, you tweak the mild calendar. At the end of the, the, the mile when somebody's dead, like you always toss them, you know, an element can. Yeah, right. And you pitch that to, to element, you've actually kind of like built out a subscription model, right? Because let's say the deal's 100 grand, 200 grand and you're gonna get up X amount over the course of six months. It's a, it's a subscription model. And so then it allows you, if you are going to start a company at this point now, you can look at your cash flow and be like, well, I can't. I can take X amount and invest it into like building my thing. Right. Or like it just puts you in a better position and understand the cash flow. And so I've been testing this even on my end because like, yes, I have. We have house of Distribution, which is the company. But we also like, also monetize, you know, the things that I'm doing. But I'm not trying to do it from like a one post transaction. So I'm trying to go into it be like. Because at the same time, like, it seems odd if I promote a data analytics software one time and I'm like, this is the best thing I use and you only ever see me post about it once. But what about the email software that I actually use to send my URL to every, every week, you know, like, and I go to them, hey, you obviously know I'm a user. What if we do this like classroom setting that every week I'm gonna tell people how to like grow their newsletter and obviously brought to you guys by, brought to you by X Brand, et cetera. That's a good place to be at and then the brand. And then it also positions you in a place where like, yo, if that succeeds, you can either A, run it up, B, they're not going to want to get rid of you. Correct. Like it's sticky at that point. And so like I keep thinking about this from like the influencer side where like or the creator side or whatever. What can I bring to the table that's sticky to like, like they do not want to get rid of? Because that's such a, a good angle and way to position yourself. Last thing I am curious because you, not you, me, Brian. Jt, we got. Yeah. Lunch at Two hand. I think it was Two hands. Yeah. A couple years ago. Are you still working on your product?
- [69:38]
B
Nothing from that conversation.
- [69:40]
A
Okay.
- [69:42]
B
The thought is still there, but I think it's similar to that conversation still, bro. It's like, I think at the stage I'm in now, it's finding the right partner still.
- [69:52]
A
Yeah.
- [69:52]
B
And I think what I've done, Alex, is that I've just reached out to brands that are very small size and just started to go from the angle of, yo, how do I come in and be, in a way, a face of the product because you have a good product. But there's no marketing. Like, realistically, in any industry, everything's about branding and marketing. Like, what is the difference between Waterloo and Rambler? Ain't really much of a difference. It's the same thing. It's how is one positioned? And I think when I thought about things in the skincare space, in this. In the supplement space, like, it's always been that same conversation. It's like, all right, well, like, what really makes this product different? Like, what's the moat? And I think for me now, it's like, instead of me going into the research of, let me do product development, let me go invest a bunch of capital into that. It's how do I just find a company that's already existing, that's maybe struggling to expand on growth and help them in that angle? So nothing from my end, but there's been a lot of conversation with potential opportunities that honestly, as I just discerned, it's like, it hasn't been the right fit. They're either too early, not a dog. They don't fit that category of the mama mentality, where it's also like, all right, even if I did get you enough impressions and potential customers, like, do we even have the structure here to. To, like, fulfill it? And a lot of times it's like, they're so early where it's like, it can't even help with that, you know? So I think for me, it's. I've just also just taken a step back, trying to figure out what my pillars are to then regroup and say, let's attack it at this angle without being so rushed just to fill in the founder co founder tag. Because I think a lot of times, like, that's also what's happening in the influencer spaces. Like, everyone wants to be an owner of a business and a product symbol now. It's status, bro. It's like everyone wants to be the next Marcus and Minted, right? It's like, it sounds good, but not everyone has the chops to do that. And having ownership of something is great, but if it don't sell. You just owning a piece of something that, yeah, it could be profit, hopefully it's a profitable business, but it's like, it could be a lot of times a waste of time. So I think after the deal with Runa, that's kind of how I rethought of things. It's like, all right, let me just really be picky and on what I'm going to put my name on. On.
- [71:59]
A
Yeah.
- [71:59]
B
And I think what's happened now is gonna be a lot of products, a lot of brands, a lot of businesses that, yeah, they started. And in the next year or two, bro, most of them aren't going to be around. And then from there it's like you have a trickle down effect of like, all right, who's. Who's still a player?
- [72:11]
A
Well, for context, I will say that me and Brian, for the last two years, anytime your name gets brought up, we always go like, yo, if Matt starts, that skincare brand is going to.
- [72:22]
B
I appreciate the love from young boy.
- [72:24]
A
You said it. You could ask him. Multiple, multiple, multiple.
- [72:27]
B
I love Brian.
- [72:28]
A
I won't go into the specifics, but not technically, not skincare, but. Well, dude, I. We've been meaning to do this for a minute. I'm so glad you were, you were able to. To come on the pod. And three, appreciate you as a human, as a friend and someone that, like, I look up to as a creator as well. Where again, you're always positive, like, you're always putting great information and great vibes into the world and there's not an, you know, we, we run in same circles. There's never a time where somebody brings up your name and there's anything negative attached to it. It's always, always positive, which I think is just also a testament to, to who you are as an individual and as well. Like, I remember when I had my daughter, you text me like, hey, just congrats. And like, sometimes those things, you know, like, it's easy to have like these friendships that sometimes stem from Instagram or like from platforms or whatever that, like, you miss that side of it. You see someone do something, whatever, and like, they don't hit you up. You're like, damn, I would have thought you would have hit me. Yeah, kind of thing. And so there's things like that where I just, I appreciate you. I appreciate you jumping, coming on the podcast and I hope we get to run it back again when, when Brian's here. Brian's hitting a bender in Miami.
- [73:40]
B
Ah, shout out to Brian. I love Brian. Absolutely. I appreciate the kind words, bro. It was super fun. And. And I'm excited to hear this one back too.
- [73:47]
A
Likewise. Where. Where can people get you? Find you. Yeah, you up. Etc.
- [73:51]
B
You guys can get me on Instagram, on tik tok matroy underscore six, and then on YouTube. It's just Matt Choy.
- [73:57]
A
Beautiful.
- [73:57]
B
Find me there.
- [73:58]
A
All right, y' all appreciate you tuning in. Peace. Peace. Hey, dude, that was great episode. That was great.
- [74:05]
B
Ah, my dog. That was great, bro.