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- [00:00]
A
Alright, guys, welcome to another episode of Sweat Equity. Today we have Matt DiLorenzo, which I've been, I've been trying to pull this off for seven or eight months now. I didn't know we'd have a crowd, so this is.
- [00:11]
B
Neither did I.
- [00:12]
A
This is a little net new.
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B
Yeah.
- [00:14]
A
But I wanted to do it here on the Wodapalooza stage. What I want to start with is I want to understand a little bit of the backstory of how you got into Tierra. I understand it's a family business, but what did it look like growing up, growing into a role and then now taking it to where it was when you first came on to where it's at?
- [00:33]
B
Yeah, I mean, I've been in the business for me my whole life. So, like it started off when I was like young. My dad had a design studio. He was doing a lot of work for lots of brands. Right. And he was doing some stuff for some swim brands at the time. And he decided to start TYR around 1985 with a gentleman who was an Olympian, Steve Furness. So I was always working in the business growing up. I was working either in the factory, I was in the sewing room, in the pattern rooms, like I was just a part of it. So like, for me, like it was, it was just general life.
- [01:09]
A
How old? Like all through middle school, high school, kind of advancing through.
- [01:12]
B
Yeah, high school. During the summers I was hanging out in the office.
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A
And then. When did you start taking like a bigger role in the company?
- [01:20]
B
Once I got out of college, I came in and started working on like product and marketing and stuff like that. So it's like it's been just part of life.
- [01:28]
A
Are you more product over marketing or more marketing over product?
- [01:31]
B
I mean, now I'm. I have to be over everything. So I mean, but I start with, I think I start with product.
- [01:36]
A
When you're starting with product, what does that mean? Are you, is it ideation? Trying to find what's not in the market, trying to find the gaps? When you're starting with product, give it to somebody that's trying to start a, start a company. They're probably thinking from the branding, the marketing perspective first. And you're like, hey, no, no, you should be looking at product, finding the gaps within the market.
- [01:54]
B
You need a product, you need a product and you need a consumer. Right. So you obviously need both. So I mean, market fit is important, but like you need to, you need to assess where there's a need. Right. So where can, where is, where is there a Place where your product can fit, and then how do you draw in that audience? Right. So for us, I mean, it's always about helping athletes perform better. So we're always looking for, hey, how can we help an athlete perform better? How can. Whether it's on the competition floor, recovery, wherever it is, like, that's where we're starting. And then obviously, we want to tell that story and get it out, to get out to our athletes and our customers.
- [02:31]
A
The one thing I wanted to understand was, like, you guys dominated and still dominate swimming.
- [02:35]
B
Yeah, right.
- [02:36]
A
That was the category. That was the niche. And then it's like, let's take a hard right to fit.
- [02:41]
B
I don't know if it's a hard right.
- [02:42]
A
Okay, not a hard right, but like a turn.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Maybe some kind of turn.
- [02:46]
B
I don't think it's fitness. I don't think it's that hard of a turn. I think it's like, it was just the evolution, like the next. The next step. But we were in swimming for a while. We were also in triathlon for a while. We were in triathlon. So, I mean, we've been in swimming since the start, and then we were in triathlon making wetsuits. We're still doing that. So to me, fitness was just. It's part of the brand. It's like, to me, it's a natural evolution. Our swimmers do a lot of dry land training. They're doing a lot of strength training. So we were seeing that, and we're like, okay, this could be the evolution of the brand. So. Yeah.
- [03:22]
A
Why fitness, though? Like, is it more because it was passion on your end of that? This is somewhere where you're spending time? Or are you looking at different trends? Are you looking at market research and determining, hey, we need to get in here. There's an opportunity here. Nobody's doing what we can do, and if we do that well, it's going to perform or what's the thought process?
- [03:42]
B
I mean, I think it's like, you can come at it from, like, a couple angles. Like, for us, our swimmers were doing a lot of dry land training. They were training in CrossFit boxes. So, like, they were going, like, these swim clubs would be going to CrossFit boxes during the week and be doing some of their dry land training. So that was an adjacency. So I'm like, all right, there's a connection there. And then once I learned more about CrossFit, I felt like there was an opportunity for a brand to come in and be more performance focused. There's a lot of lifestyle in this space, which I think is great, but there's also an opening for more performance product and product that helps athletes kind of like elevate their game. So that was an opening and, you know, there was a market that could be served there. So it's kind of, it was kind of both. Like, we knew that our customer base was already training, so that kind of de. Risked it a little bit. And then we also knew that there was space here to be technologically advanced, which, from swimming, I mean, we're making speed suits. From triathlon, we're making high performance wetsuits. Like, that's kind of who we are. So that made it, that made it a good market for us to go into.
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A
Why do you think CrossFit didn't have tech like in, in the footwear? Whereas, like you have the Nikes and the running of the world, right? And there's, there's so much detail that goes into the carbon fiber shoe. And it's like every year needs to get incrementally better, right? Why didn't CrossFit kind of match that? When you think about, like, I think.
- [05:03]
B
They'Re just brands that were focused on other things. Like, I think that some of the other brands are just focused on, you know, maybe being more of a lifestyle shoe or being more general fitness. I don't think there is a lot of brands thinking of CrossFit with a level of specificity, like, hey, let's make a product specifically for this outside of like the big brands, right? It's like the Nikes have been coming out with their shoe for quite some time, but I don't know if it was a focus for the bigger brands. So I think, you know, that's an opportunity too. Sometimes, you know, when the bigger brands are in the space, but they're not necessarily focused, you can come in and, you know, make some waves.
- [05:43]
A
Does a larger brand look at a space like that and they see, okay, like, let's test the waters, let's see if there is potential there. Or is it like, oh, we need to be there, let's launch a shoe there?
- [05:51]
B
I mean, I couldn't tell you. I'm not at a larger brand. But I mean, there's definitely brands that come in and then dip out, right? I mean, these are more niche sports than the major sports. So I think that they want to have exposure, but how authentic can they really be? And how long are they going to stay? I mean, we've been in swimming for 40 years in triathlon. For probably almost 40 years as well. We have no plans of going anywhere in this space. So. Yeah.
- [06:22]
A
Did you start in CrossFit?
- [06:23]
B
I think we started four years ago, kind of coming in with shoes. I mean, we're relatively new. This is our third year, third ish year of shoes. So relatively new for shoes as a brand.
- [06:34]
A
Breaking into the space. What was. What was the plan? It's never easy just getting into a category and kind of being the new kid on block. What was the game plan?
- [06:43]
B
The game plan was to come in and make good product, I think make good product and then see where it would go. So it starts with product. There was an opportunity to make a lifter with a wider toe box. I think that that was a start for us. Like, that was like, okay, this is a space where we keep hearing that, hey, why isn't there a lifter with a wider toe box? So we started with. That started with the cxt and it caught on. So then the. The athletes gravitated towards us. We were in a position where we could kind of make the investments to come in. But, I mean, I don't think the plan was to take over. I think it was to come in and be authentic and make great product.
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A
What made you go to the CXT like a lifter for the first shoe? Because I feel like that's not the norm.
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B
Right?
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A
Like, if I'm.
- [07:37]
B
I mean, for me, I just saw the community talking about narrow toe box shoes where like a Reddit just everywhere. It was like picking it up from everywhere. So it's like whether it was. I don't recall, like, specifics, but it's just like you could, you know, goes on social media, you know, like, we partnered with Squatt University. Aaron, he was talking about it a lot.
- [07:58]
A
He was talking about it in 2021.
- [07:59]
B
He was talking about it before, like, we reached out to him. We're like, hey, would you want to help us, like, make a shoe? So it was just listening to the market and saying, hey, there's an opening here. I'm hearing this a lot. And I was surprised that there wasn't a shoe that had more of an anatomical shape. So, like, that was, you know, that was the first one of the first products. And then we wanted to make a training shoe that was very specific to CrossFit. I mean, that obviously had been done by other companies, but we wanted to put our take on it. The way that we build the shoe, the way that we kind of have a higher drop than most people or most companies.
- [08:41]
A
So, yeah, how Long are you working? So if you launched a lifter in 2021, but you're breaking into a new space, it's a new type of shoe. It's something that you guys haven't done. Are you spending six months on development of that shoe a year? Development?
- [08:55]
B
Yeah, I think the development, I mean the developments, like from ideation to market, 18, 24 months probably.
- [09:04]
A
Does it break into categories of like, ideation and mold, maybe to then tech and then into. To market?
- [09:12]
B
What do you mean?
- [09:13]
A
Like, I'm sure it's first it starts with the mold of the shoe, or at least my thought process. I've never been a part of a conversation like that.
- [09:19]
B
It starts with like an idea.
- [09:20]
A
Okay, walk me through that.
- [09:21]
B
Like, it just starts with an idea, like whether the team will get together, we'll talk about ideas, or what we're thinking is possible. Right? So like, hey, someone might have something that's a category. Like, hey, we should be in this category. We need whatever, a running shoe or, hey, I have an idea for like a wide toe box lifter. Depending on. Depending on the idea, then it'll kind of go from there. So we'll start with, you know, a design and then from there work to the tooling. And then once we have a prototype, it's. It's testing. So there's a lot of testing. So like, just to make sure that the product is like, ready to go.
- [09:59]
A
And how are you testing tech? Cause, for example, like the carbon or the lifter, because the first variation of lifters didn't have carbon. Or they did.
- [10:06]
B
No, they didn't.
- [10:07]
A
Okay.
- [10:07]
B
The first variation was the wider toe box was the main selling feature.
- [10:13]
A
When you're looking at the tech aspects of it, is that all part of the. Does that start in the ideation phase as well, or is that like a evolution, as you're going, of trying to figure out, understand what the good tech.
- [10:24]
B
Is going to be like? Okay, we want more force production off the floor. How can we do that? And then the engineers and the design team will be like, well, we could put a plate in the shoe. Well, what does that plate look like? Well, it won't look like a running shoe plate. It'll look different. And then we partner with testing facilities. Like we're working with lsu, right? So we'll partner with them, we'll build prototypes, we'll build samples, we'll send it to them, and then we'll get back the data. And then we'll work with our athletes like, like Matty Rogers or Hampton Morris. And they'll give us feedback or work with CrossFit athletes. Pat Velner and just, hey, are you feeling this? Like, are you feeling what the data is representing? We'll share the data with them, we'll bring them down to lsu. We'll kind of just test the product and then if we get good data and good feedback, then obviously we know we're onto something.
- [11:19]
A
I find that super interesting just because at least from. I'm big into the space and I, and I'm always looking at the footwear, I'm always looking at the apparel, but I don't. From my, at least for my pov, I don't see enough of the tech on. Focused on the performance aspect. When you look at Tyr and you look at where you're trying to go in the next three, four, even this year, is it like, give me a little bit of the vision, a little bit of where you want and how you want people to perceive the tech and the brand and everything about the performance.
- [11:49]
B
I think it's about the customer. I think customers are looking for tech because they're looking to perform better. So for us it's a matter of trying to help our athletes, like our consumers do the best that they can. Right. So that, that is tech. Like it's, you know, we're trying to find those technologies that are going to help them improve so that they can get to their goals. So like tech is a very much a part of who we are because that's, that's our mission is to help athletes achieve their goals.
- [12:22]
A
How do you then look at, for example, like if I look at some of the brands that are winning now, they're mixing fashion with fitness.
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B
Yeah.
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A
How do you make sure that you're. And it's just becoming like fitness is becoming a lifestyle.
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B
Right.
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A
Like you look at the run clubs and their, the new dating apps and all that stuff.
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B
I think the shoes have to look good. I mean like it's like yes, tech, but then the shoe has to look good and you have to feel good in the shoe. It can't just be like, it can just be tech and then it just.
- [12:47]
A
Yeah, you look shitty on the competition.
- [12:48]
B
Unless the tech calls for some sort of like certain aesthetic. I don't know. I mean, you know, like a wide toe box shoe, it has to be wide in nature.
- [12:56]
A
So, so how do you get like engineers and designers to kind of work together on that?
- [13:00]
B
That's fun. I mean you have to kind of like get them together and they have to work through it. And then you have to. You have to decide what's. What's more important. I mean, performance for us is the most important. That's just like performance. But again, like, that shouldn't be. We shouldn't sacrifice the look of the shoe.
- [13:16]
A
Is that a good.
- [13:16]
B
But it's like, it's not going to be a shoe. That's. I mean, our product is going to be about helping you perform. So it's like. But it has to look good. You have to do both. It's not really in one or the other.
- [13:28]
A
Is that an internal team like, that you have engineers and. Yeah, like product designers. What is the whole. What does the infrastructure look like for.
- [13:36]
B
So there's like. Like there's a design team, there's a PD team, there's an engineering team.
- [13:41]
A
What's the pd? Pd? Product development.
- [13:45]
B
So between myself, the engineering team, and the design team, we're just coming up with ideas. And it's a team, though. We're working together. So everyone's kind of putting in their two cents of what they think the product should be. But from a specification standpoint, the engineering team is what's delivering kind of like what the mark should be on the shoes.
- [14:06]
A
And then the design team kind of molds it.
- [14:08]
B
Yeah. Then the design team will come in and make it look like a tier shoe and make it look good.
- [14:16]
A
So if we're looking at, like the CXT flow.
- [14:18]
B
Yeah.
- [14:18]
A
How many variations of this have you gone through? Like, this is final product, right?
- [14:22]
B
Yes, final product.
- [14:23]
A
Is that v?
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B
That's like v1. Yeah. So that had, like a different suede on it. So we changed that.
- [14:29]
A
It looks significantly different.
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B
Yeah. This suede, this new buck is super nice.
- [14:32]
A
Yeah.
- [14:34]
B
So, yeah, we wanted to make it. I mean, this shoe, we wanted to be functional, but also something that you could, like, wear with jeans or wear out. So this one kind of, you know, it's. It's in between performance and also lifestyle and looking good. But yeah, I mean, there's definitely tons of iterations. Tons of iterations, tons of changes. And I mean, we make shoes sometimes that we never bring to market at all.
- [15:02]
A
With all of this going on, what is. What does your schedule look like? Because to give context to anybody listening, you have the swimwear side of it, which is wholesale, that we're not talking about as much, but it's a huge part of the company. And then you have the fitness side of it dominating CrossFit, and that is. There's a lot of conversations. And I remember when we were talking at the Games. It's like there's a lot of people in Europe I believe that you have to talk to and then there's a lot of people in the States and then in China.
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B
Yeah, I mean in Asia.
- [15:29]
A
Yeah, in Asia.
- [15:30]
B
I could work all day if I'd like, but I mean I don't if I wanted to, I'm sure there's someone that I could chat with. I mean the day I bounce around from everything from finance to product to.
- [15:44]
A
Operations, like walk me through what that day looks like. Is it.
- [15:47]
B
It depends on 4:35.
- [15:49]
A
Okay, let's look Monday through Friday.
- [15:50]
B
I mean Monday I'm up five in the morning workout probably from six to seven. So from five to six I'm probably working through emails, just kind of gathering my thoughts, getting, you know, getting ready for the day, seeing kind of like what I want to tackle, putting a little list together of here's some critical things that I want to achieve, Make a small breakfast, work out maybe 6-67-67-7730, come back, head to the office. And then depending on what day it is, what week of the month, I mean we're working on, on different stuff but it's some variation of like product operations, marketing. If we're putting on something like this, discuss this. But it varies. But I mean I like to touch base with most of the team members or most of the team leads and kind of get a sense of what's going on. And then reality is like whatever the biggest problems are, that's kind of what I'm trying to tackle and trying to solve. So it's like whatever our A plus problems are, whatever we need to deal with or whatever I need to help work through, that's kind of where I'm gonna spend my time. So like yeah, do you bucket the days?
- [17:07]
A
Like you know, beginning of the day is wholesale, next part of the day is product line or is it just like.
- [17:12]
B
No, I mean it'll go between like, I mean we have certain teams for swim like from swim sales. So I'll work with, you know, whether I'm working with the swim wholesale team, whether I'm working with the E Commerce team, there's definitely some structure to the week. But then there's a lot of times where I just kind of like pop in or I'm just needed, I'm trying to help, trying to help out as much as possible. I think it's important that I'm a resource for people if they need help or they have questions and I can help kind of like get through the More challenging. Challenging stuff.
- [17:50]
A
I think it's a skill, though, to be able to. Because especially with. With you, if you're going like, nine to nine, you have to be able to, like, almost open a drawer, close a drawer is like, at the framing.
- [17:59]
B
Of efficient with your time. I think you have to get, like, you have to have them have meetings that are. Are useful, right? Like, you can't burn a lot of time because you know, it can just stack up if you're not using the time super efficiently. So it's like you have to have, like, that internal clock of like, hey, all right, guys, we're gonna talk about this. Like, if we're kind of getting off topic, if someone's in the meeting and this isn't serving them, pop out. Like, I don't. I try not to have meetings. To just have meetings. To have meetings, like, that's a killer at a company like ours. So it's like, try to get in, try to understand what needs to be tackled, and then do it.
- [18:38]
A
Has that changed since from. I go based off what I see on LinkedIn, right? Quote, unquote. I know you have no official start date as CEO of Tier, but if you look at 15 years ago, at least I saw the LinkedIn anniversary. I got here with the LinkedIn anniversary 15 years ago. Were you like that, or is this, like, a skill that you've developed? Because I even look at myself, in the last year and a half, there would be times where I'd be in a meeting, right? And because, like, it's building a company for a year and a half, two years, there's, like, skill sets I don't have yet. I don't. I didn't feel comfortable yet being in a meeting and be like, all right, guys, let's wrap it up. Like, I gotta go move on to the next thing. Is that a skill kind of you develop where it's like, hey, guys, we got to move on to the next thing. We got to stay on topic, Okay, I got to go move and bounce and, like, stay very. How do you stay that intense and that focus?
- [19:23]
B
I think you develop that over time because you don't get to stuff, and things inevitably don't work out the way you wanted, right? So, like, it's just learning by experience. So, yeah, I mean, for sure, in the beginning, maybe I wasn't like, you know, leading as effectively as I could, but leadership is a skill, right? And nothing is a substitute for experience. So, I mean, even if you. Whatever, you can try to get as much knowledge as you Can. But, like, learning from mistakes is. It's really the best teacher. Right. So, yeah, if I, in the past let a meeting go too long or we kind of talked in circles, then I didn't get to something else and that caused a problem. You're like, all right. It's like you kind of learn from that, and you're like, all right, well, if I don't. If we don't get. If we don't wrap this up, then I'm not going to get to that. Then the end of the day is going to come and it's going to bleed into the next day. Like, so it's. Yeah, it's a skill. I mean, doing is the most important thing. Like, just constantly doing. You just get better at stuff, right? I mean, it's the most. Like, it's the most effective way to learn.
- [20:28]
A
Something I've been trying to do this early last year mostly was like, focus on the traits I'm developing as. Again, like, I'm on the younger side in a younger company, but developing and being very aware of the traits I'm developing as a. As a CEO. And I think the things that I learned was intensity and focus were, like, the biggest things, like being very intense, making sure the other team understands that intensity so that they execute against it as well. And then focus, like, understanding what the North Star is and making sure that we're all rowing in that. In that same direction.
- [20:58]
B
Yeah, I think intensity makes sense, but it's like, you need to be able to hold that intensity. It's like, you can't burn out, right? Like, you need to be able to. Like, it's like training, right? Like, you need to. You can't go so hard that then the next day you can't. Right? So, like, that's something that, like, I learned because, like, in. When I was younger, like, I'd go, whatever. I'd just be so into it. But then, like, you kind of stress yourself out. So you have to learn, like, you have to learn how to keep going. Like, it's a. It's beyond a marathon. It's like a. It's forever, right? So it's like, still forever. So it's like, you have to be able to maintain that intensity. So you have to figure out, like, all right, you have to be aware, like, hey, am I going to be able to keep going at this level? Is the team going to be able to withstand my intensity? And you got to understand your team members. Like, you just can't drive everyone and just blow them up. Like, so, which is something I've definitely learned over the years. Like, you can push, but, like, not everyone. Not everyone wants to be managed that way. Right. So it's like, you.
- [21:59]
A
How do you find the balance with that, then? Because there's people on my team where it's very similar, where, like, if I hit them up on the weekend, it's like, yo, can you not hit me up on the weekend versus you? And I have texted at 5am and I'm, like, enjoying the conversation while you.
- [22:12]
B
Just got to figure out who wants or who, you know, wants to be managed that way and who's open to that. Like, you know, you have to. And then you have to decide as a leader, kind of like, what kind of team do you want to build? Yeah, there's certain circumstances where, like, you got to push through and you just got to do what you got to do.
- [22:28]
A
But then, like, a Waterloo kind of.
- [22:30]
B
Scenario or something, Something's going wrong and something didn't go the way that it was supposed to, and now you got to clean up a mess, and it kind of is what it is, and you can learn from it after and try to, you know, pick up, like, analyze it. But in the moment, it's like, hey, we just kind of got to get this done. But, yeah, you got to figure that out. Like, and the best way to figure it out is by doing it. And you're probably going to make a ton of mistakes. You're going to make a ton of mistakes, and then you're going to look back and be like, I shouldn't have done this. But just having the awareness to say, like, hey, like, internally, like, okay, maybe here shouldn't have, like, done that. Or maybe this was. I was pushing too much. Or maybe my own ambition. Like, I should have seen something a little bit differently and pulled back. Like, But, I mean, experience is the, you know, like, that the. The way to get good judgment is through, you know, making a lot of decisions. And sometimes there's. Oftentimes you make choices that you otherwise would have done differently. But yeah, it's. You got to build a team, and you got to figure out what's important to you when you're hiring. Right. And make sure that the people you're bringing in have the qualities that, you know, are important to you as a leader and how you. How you want to run your company.
- [23:40]
A
That's what I was about to get into because I think last year I brought people onto the team that didn't have the intensity factor, and it brings down the energy across the board. Even if I'm bringing all of the energy day in, day out, if, like, you have people, because especially if you're a small team, it sucks some of that, that energy and intensity from the team. And something I learned last year is, like, it's. You could have somebody that has that skill set, the skill set that you need that to achieve the goal, the outcome that you. That you're going towards. But if they're not the culture fit, if they don't have the intensity, it's better to find somebody that maybe takes a little longer to train them and bring them up to speed, but they're going to lift everybody else up with you.
- [24:21]
B
I mean, talent is super important, but if you. If the drive isn't there or the work ethic or the grit, right, like, grit is a big thing. I mean, I mean, so many entrepreneurs succeed just by perseverance, right? Like, by not quitting. I think that's really important. I think you obviously can't quit. I mean, you can slow down, you can figure out how you can stay in the right mental mindset, but, like, you can't. You can't quit. So it's just. Yeah, it's. It's something where you got to figure out how you want to build your team and hiring and hiring the right people, right? It's like you need to. You need to have people who really enjoy what they're doing and who like.
- [25:13]
A
What they're doing, which is hard. It's hard to find those people. I think I saw something. I don't know if it was. It was Gary Vee or like one of those where it was like, hire fast, fire faster, promote fastest.
- [25:26]
B
That's a lot of. Yeah, it's a lot of fast stuff.
- [25:30]
A
I feel like that, that falls into your kind of intensity levels.
- [25:33]
B
I think it's finding. I think it's figuring out what's important to you and then hiring for that and just being really diligent in hiring the right people. And then I think that will mitigate a lot of the issues, because if you hire the wrong person or you bring the someone who's not the right fit for the team, I think that's also important, like, looking at your team members and be like, is this person gonna fit in and how you build a team, Right. Like, you know, getting people who are high achievers all to work together, that can be challenging, too.
- [26:07]
A
Why?
- [26:08]
B
Like, it's like, because everyone has their own ideas of.
- [26:11]
A
But more than.
- [26:11]
B
Yeah, they. So, like, it's really. It's Figuring out how to, how to put people together and understand kind of what kind of makes them tick, but what works there.
- [26:22]
A
The one thing I've learned is almost how to position ideas. How do you, even if you're right, how do you position idea where the person feels like they also added to that idea, like they brought their value, their perspective was seen with the idea that you're presenting to them.
- [26:38]
B
I think if you outline a clear vision, I think that they'll be able to participate. It's about having a clear vision for the goals and objectives and then I think that they can add value. I think if you don't have a clear direction, then it's hard for people to participate in a meaningful way. I think it gets, it just gets cloudy.
- [27:00]
A
Yeah. I want to transition towards the vision for tier, like the next step in building the brand and how you see it. Where do you see from a perspective standpoint of how you want somebody to perceive tier, let's say 20, 25. What, what is that and how is that seen?
- [27:19]
B
I mean, for us, we're, we're an athletic brand that's focused on helping athletes achieve their goals. So, you know, and that comes through the products that we create, helping them train and perform better and then through the content and marketing, hoping to inspire them. Right. Like that's, that's the direction, that's the vision for the company. And I don't think that that's going to change. That's been the vision for the company. I think it just started in swimming and now it's just evolving into more. But that's been the vision from the beginning. Right? I mean, the tagline for us is always in front and that means, you know, striving for something, going after a goal, having the courage to really go all out and pursue something. So that's, that's at the core of who we are. So I hope people see that now and that's, you know, that's the evolution of, that's going to, that thought is just going to continue and continue to evolve into whatever we go into. But we want to help, want to help our athletes achieve, achieve their goals, whatever that that goal is for them, from a super high level to someone possibly just starting out. But it's like we're a brand for people who are, are serious about pursuing whatever it is that they're pursuing and are taking it, you know, somewhat serious.
- [28:41]
A
Do you see like the Nikes and the Adidas and as a CEO, you're like, we should be there or we're gonna be there next time.
- [28:48]
B
I don't really think about those brands. I kind of just think about us.
- [28:52]
A
Not them specifically, but like as like size like the world's going to.
- [28:55]
B
I don't think about size that much for me, for me it's just like let's. So what drives the best product that we can. Let's put the best product out there. Let's tell the stories of our athletes that are inspiring and let's kind of see where that goes. But and, and the rest should take care of itself. So we, I mean of course you aspire like the dream is to be a large sports brand, but it's not going to get, it's not going to happen overnight at all. Right. It's going to take basically a lifetime and it, you know, it. We're gonna need to do a lot of things right. So I really just focus on those things. I try to get the team to focus on those things. Like there's no, I've been here at the company for 17 years. It doesn't happen overnight. Like the growth comes, you know, year in and year out. Maybe, maybe one time it'll you know, hockey stick up. But, but you know, it's really, if that happens, great. But I have to, you know, I have to focus on delivering, delivering great product and helping athletes achieve their goals.
- [30:05]
A
Is there. So like what drives you specifically? Like do you have your own Goal 4 tier from. I don't know if it's a revenue number. If you're like, hey, I want to go public or I want to xyz. Cause like even with marketing exam on mine, I want marketing Examine to be a nine figure company. Like that's, that's my. And that's like the internal goal.
- [30:24]
B
I know there's, there's other, there's a number goal. I think that there's always a number goal and you should put that number goal. But I mean I really like what I do. Yeah, I mean I've been part of it. Like this is what I've been part of my whole life. So I just, I very much like what I do. I mean if I, we tell people say oh, would you sell it? It's like I don't even know what I would do. I like it like, I really like, I don't know. I don't know. I like what I do. I don't. I just. What would we do so that could.
- [30:52]
A
Go viral right there. I just like what I do.
- [30:54]
B
I just, I do. I really, I. It's like what would I Do hang out on the beach. Like that would get old. I'd probably just do it again. Yeah, I'd probably just take a year or two off or I guess or whatever and just be like, okay, like let's run it back, let's do something again. Like I just have that bug. Like this is what I like to do. It's exciting when people come up to you and they're like, your product helped me do X, Y or Z. That's, that's very fulfilling. Like, you know, at the end of the day the, you know, customers left with their product and you hope they have a good experience with it. So it's like that, that feedback loop, I just genuinely enjoy that.
- [31:32]
A
I just think, and maybe it's because I'm outside in and I haven't been in enough meetings with you guys, but I look at Tyr and then I see a Nike and I'm like, oh, it could be that, like it could be there. And I, and I wonder. It's because like you guys have the top athletes, you have all the tech in, in the shoe. You guys prioritize that. And I just look at what, you know, you and I have talked about this, but like what Nike has done so well is the storytelling, the ads. But it's like you guys have, you already have the best athletes.
- [32:00]
B
You already have the great products, have done great products too. I mean it's everything, right? It's great product, great storytelling. That's inspirational. And having to do all of it, a lot of it, day in and day out, it's just a lot of it. But yeah, I mean those brands are amazing. I mean we study those brands. Those are the brands that have inspired us. Right? I'm not gonna lie. Like they're brands we grew up with. So I mean they're amazing and they've achieved awesome stuff. But there's room for more brands, I think. So it's not something that, it's like a day to day focus. Of course we think about. Yes, it'd be great to be there, but we'll get there in time. I mean, I got some time, so, you know, there's time. So that's like just, just worried about what we're doing today, what we're doing this month, we're doing this quarter. Like we're not gonna get to 10 years from now without going through all of that. Right?
- [32:55]
A
So what do you think's missing? Do you think it's the media component? Do you think it is like the storytelling and like that high level Execution around campaigns because, again, like, you guys have. You've all athletes.
- [33:06]
B
Like, I think that's something that we're going to focus on more, is storytelling. I think we're so new in. In the footwear space that getting just the product up, these events going, you know, we want to. You know, we want to be authentic. Like, we're here, we want to. We're very much in the fitness space looking to go on into something else. So, yeah, I think that. I think we just have to keep doing what we're doing and just do more of it. I don't think there's a missing piece. I think we just have to continue to stay consistent and learn. I mean, I think, you know, you have to assess where maybe you could do better and do better. So. Yeah, but I. I would just say we need to stay consistent. Consistency is the name of the game. So I don't. I don't look at it like there's a missing piece. Could things, certain things be better? 100%. But there's. I don't think we're doing anything that's, you know, like, there is no glaring part. We're doing certain things. We want to amplify those things. We really want to amplify everything. Better product, better marketing, better operations, better everything.
- [34:13]
A
You told me at. @ SoCal last time we were there, you're like, I'm not worried about growth. I'm worried about branding in 2025.
- [34:22]
B
Yeah. I think since we're new, I think branding and just having people be aware of us, I think, I think the. I think I just, you know, we need. I don't know how many people are aware of us because we're so new. I think people know us for swimming, and I think that people are coming to understand the other products people know us for. Footwear, apparel will be a bigger focus. So I think when I mean branding, it's just get the. Getting the brand out there and in front of more people. I think that's something that. Just because we're so new in this area, that's a focus. So. And doing that in, like an authentic way.
- [34:59]
A
But I feel like the hard part then on your end is it's hard to measure branding.
- [35:04]
B
Yeah.
- [35:05]
A
And you and I were texting last.
- [35:06]
B
Weekend, very hard to measure branding.
- [35:07]
A
And we were. You were like, I care about performance. You know, I forgot exactly who and what we were talking about.
- [35:13]
B
Branding. Branding is elusive. Right. It's, in a way, it's hard.
- [35:17]
A
It's Barry Sanders.
- [35:18]
B
It is. And it isn't um, it's all of it, man. It's all of it. It's product and it's branding and it's brand awareness and. Yeah. And some things just take time. And I think time is also, you know, something you gotta have patience for. But I think time is. I think a lot of things, if you can stay consistent, will flush out with time.
- [35:37]
A
Yeah, I think it's one of those. In six months, you should be able to see some kind of return or movement from anything that you're doing on the brand side, realistically.
- [35:46]
B
Sure. Yeah. I don't disagree with that. If you, if you're doing something. Yeah. Significant. I would say so. I think coming out with something new, a new product, a new brand campaign. Yeah, there should. You should be. You should be measuring that and having an understanding of it, for sure.
- [36:02]
A
Because it's tough. It is hard to measure awareness. It's easier now by looking at, like, organic search traffic and. Yeah, organic search traffic, even just repeat purchase a lot of the data points. But it's. It's tough to measure a brand campaign and be like, that brand campaign did a lot for us.
- [36:20]
B
Yeah. But I think these things stack up over time. Everyone wants to measure, like, and that's the problem.
- [36:26]
A
But it's like, that's the problem.
- [36:27]
B
But look at the totality of what you've created and that. That could be more important as opposed to, like, hey, we did this and we had this goal, but it didn't work. Like, you can't measure everything in a month or we launched and launch weekend. Like, maybe things will take a little bit more time. I think that's the part where you have to be consistent and have patience. You can't constantly be going one direction and then another direction and another direction. I mean, if things aren't working out, then maybe you want to cut that. But yeah, patience. Patience to let things grow. Right. Like, not everything is going to be immediate. And that's a discipline. That's a learned skill to have to be like, okay, like, the decisions were made for the right reasons. Would we do that again under those circumstances? Did we execute? Okay, But I think, yeah, I mean, things stack up over time. I mean, that's part of branding as well. Just coming with, you know, coming with a consistency of, you know, solid work.
- [37:27]
A
I think Meta ruined it a little bit because with Meta, right? Like, I could put in $50 and I could get an answer like that of is this worth it or not? Whereas something on the branding side or even like, you know, we work with A ton of brands on the organic side and you have this, this limbo of look, you're spending seven figures a month, if not more on paid ads because you know, like it's going to drive, even if it's a 1.5x return, we could spend, let's say you drive doing seven figures there to reach, you know, 20 million people, 30 million people a month. You invest 50 grand a month into a content team, you could be getting to 20, 30, 40 million impressions a month as well, and then cut acquisition costs. But it's going to take three to five months to start getting into. If like you have a good content team, you have a good content strategy to take three to five months to get there, then this is going to be drastically impacted. And I think having the patience here when you do not seeing that return is hard. It's hard to have those conversations.
- [38:23]
B
That's scary. It can be scary because you're burning up money and you're like, is this gonna work? And that's, yeah, that's, that's part of the game. Right. Like, but I think, I think you have to, you have to have stuff that's measured, but then you also have to do stuff for a longer term play. And not everything can be measured and quantified in, in data in, you know, an immediate way. Right. So like, yeah, I do think that, you know, we, we like to get confirmation of ideas pretty quickly because it makes us feel better, but that doesn't necessarily matter. Right. So yeah, I think, I think it's a combination of both.
- [39:05]
A
You think that's a skill as a CEO? Like you got to be willing to take risk because like, I'll never even forget when I was starting marketing examine and we were, I think Vanessa was like two weeks from having the baby. And that's like when I went full time, I was transitioning. I remember talking to someone, they were like, oh, I'd never do it. One, I would never quit my job. Two, I would never take that risk. Three, what if, you know, it was like, kind of just gotta be able to understand. One, believe in yourself, have the confidence and then just be willing to take the risk.
- [39:35]
B
Yeah, you also have to put in the work. Right. Like the more, the more you do, the better you'll feel. I think like the more you're in it, the more you're trying to learn, the more self aware you can become. Yeah. But yeah, it's not for everyone. I think it can be scary. I mean it's definitely, it's definitely an interesting Journey, the entrepreneurial journey. But it's exciting too. I mean, it's terrifying and euphoric. You're basically dealing with those emotions every day. You're like. And you're second guessing yourself. I think you just get. You get more used to second guessing yourself and then you're like, okay, like, I had a thought. Like, this thought. Like, it's not real. It's just a thought. Like, like, you know, you can go in both directions. You can get overly excited about an idea and have to rein yourself in and be like, I don't know, does.
- [40:25]
A
That still happen to you?
- [40:26]
B
Yeah, of course. It happens all the time.
- [40:28]
A
Like when all the time.
- [40:29]
B
You could be thinking about anything. You could be like, oh, man, should we have done so many colors in this shoe? Should we have pushed into this market? Should we have, I don't know, spent here? Should we whatever, or, yeah, or we should have done more or why didn't we invest in this and we did that instead? Like, you're always thinking about stuff. I mean, that's. I'm human. That's normal. I just. You just kind of like, can quiet it, that chatter and just be like, all right, like, we've been here before and normally things aren't as good and norm. We're as bad. Like, they're normally. You know, and failure isn't like failure of a project or whatever. Like, whatever. It just means you, you learn from it and you keep going. Like, so you, like, failure is fine if you want to, obviously don't take yourself out. But like, you, you keep going on from it like it's not the end. So I think people get. People think about a lot of things and worry about a lot of things that don't necessarily ever happen. So like, for me, when I have worries or concerns, I'm like, all right, well, let's play this out. Like, how would that, how would that have to transpire for it to get that bad? And you're like, all right, like, that's, you know, and conversely the same thing. Like, so, yeah, between euphoria, terror, some. Somewhere on that spectrum, I believe you.
- [41:43]
A
And I are probably similar where failure is just a data point more than anything. Like, I don't see failure as something until you actually give up on the thing.
- [41:52]
B
I don't think we want to fail, but I think it happens. And then you have to learn from it. And I mean, kind of it's a kind of humbling experience or it is a humbling experience and you have to use. Use it to teach yourself Right. You can't get too upset. I think early on though, people don't think that they're going to have setbacks, but you're going to have setbacks. Right? I mean, that's the like cliche chart, right? Like, it's not a straight line. It's like this. Yeah, it is. And when it's down, you feel it. Like that's not just a line. So. Yeah, that's. The more you go through it though, the more you learn. But it makes the good times more enjoyable. I mean, that's, that's why I like doing this. It's. I mean, you know, it's, it's something that's fulfilling. You know, when you work through a challenge and you come out on the other end and you know you, you made it, you're like, all right, cool. It builds character and there's. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of fulfillment.
- [42:50]
A
So is this like a sport to you? A little bit. Because you played football, didn't you?
- [42:55]
B
Yeah, I was, I would say I was a average high school athlete.
- [42:59]
A
That would be my college. I didn't know if you played college.
- [43:02]
B
No, no. But I mean, yeah, I treat, I mean, I think the mindset is like that. Yeah, yeah. Super, super long term thinking. Have to be patient, have to be self aware, have to learn from your mistakes. Otherwise you're kind of going to take yourself out. That's it. So just, you know, you getting better from an emotional standpoint and you know, making decisions quicker because you're understanding the situation. Yeah, I mean, I can definitely see that versus when I was younger and you know, probably more emotional, more impulsive, more reactive, not thinking through as much stuff. But I mean that's to me, that's experience. That is like there was no. I could have read tons of books and I did and try to understand it. But like the emotions and the feelings are the feelings. So you have to work through them and process them.
- [43:55]
A
Man. I appreciate you coming on. I, I'm getting cold. I'm sure you're getting cold.
- [44:00]
B
You're getting cold in this year, man.
- [44:02]
A
I know this, this was, this was a choice. The last thing I'd want to end with is if I was describing tier to somebody. Right. As a brand, how do you want people to describe in you guys?
- [44:14]
B
Tyr is a brand for people who are striving for something, striving for greatness, on the verge of greatness, going for something. To me, that's what tier is. It's what it is. To me, it's what it is to my family. So I think it's who we are to our, our consumer. It's a brand for people who are going after a goal and, you know, might be scared, might be afraid to fail, but are still going to go for it anyway. So that's the way I would. I'd want people to think of the.
- [44:48]
A
Brand tier that hit me and I'll wrap it with this. But it hit me when I was in a meeting and somebody mentioned something like that, where originally I was just thinking top athlete, top athlete. Right. And inspiring the next person who wants to be a top athlete. And I don't know if it was you or if it was Corey who then was like, no, like, it's also the mom who worked all day and her goal is just to be able to work out every single day and no matter what she goes and gets her training session in.
- [45:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's whatever your goal is, it's a personal goal, but it's, it's a big goal for you. And you know, you, you, like I said, you might be scared, you might, you know, fail sometimes and you just, you don't quit. Right. Like, but it can be, hey, I want to win an elite level competition or I want to get back in shape. And you know, maybe, you know, that's a longer road, but it's a commitment. And yeah, if you fall down, you get back up and you keep going. And it's just, you know, it's about perseverance and persistence and endurance and, and striving for something.
- [45:53]
A
Well, man, I appreciate you being on here. We're going to have to do this again in six months and see if the, the brand campaigns are. I'd love to do that if something's measured, but I appreciate you being here. I'm excited to kick this hole.