Dark triads | Ep 4

Summary

Sweet Bobby - Episode 4: Dark Triads

Host: Tortoise Media
Title: Dark Triads
Release Date: September 4, 2023

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Overview

In Episode 4 of the award-winning investigative series Sweet Bobby, host Alexei Mostros delves deeper into the complex psyche of Simran Bogle, the alleged mastermind behind one of the most sophisticated catfishing schemes. Titled "Dark Triads," this episode explores the psychological traits that may have driven Simran to deceive her victims over a decade. Through interviews, meticulous investigation, and psychological insights, Mostros seeks to uncover the motivations and behavioral patterns that define Simran’s actions.

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Attempting Contact with Simran Bogle

The episode opens with Alexei recounting his efforts to contact Simran Bogle directly. After initial attempts to reach her work phone go unanswered, Mostros decides to try her mobile number, hoping for a direct conversation to gain insights into her motives.

Alexei Mostros [02:09]: "I had more questions than answers, not least, why did she do it and how did she do it?"

Despite hoping to hear Simran's side, his call is abruptly disconnected. Undeterred, Alexei tries again but is met with a voicemail from Simran's lawyer, signaling a significant barrier in accessing Simran herself.

Simran Bogle’s Lawyer [07:12]: "I understand that you've contacted Ms. Simran Bogle."

This interaction sets the tone for the episode, highlighting the challenges in obtaining firsthand accounts from individuals involved in deceptive activities.

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Impact on Victims: Kirat and Bobby

The narrative shifts to the profound impact Simran's deceit has had on her victims. Kirat Assi and Bobby, both duped by Simran's elaborate personas, share their emotional turmoil and the lingering sense of betrayal.

Kirat Assi [11:46]: "I wouldn't go anywhere on a couple of occasions... I don't know if I'd fall apart."

Bobby adds another layer to the story by revealing that Simran was not only catfishing Kirat but was also involved with his younger brother, JJ, indicating a broader scope of deception.

Bobby [19:18]: "Simran was not only catfishing Kirat, she was, while in a relationship with my brother, catfishing him at the same time."

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Patterns of Catfishing and Simran’s Elaborate Schemes

Alexei analyzes the recurring patterns in Simran's tactics, drawing parallels to literary examples like Shakespeare's Othello. He posits that Simran's manipulative behaviors may align with psychological constructs known as the "Dark Triad."

Alexei Mostros [33:33]: "Nothing that she or anyone else has told me explains her actions. There is no clear motivation."

This lack of clear motivation complicates the understanding of Simran's actions, suggesting a deeper psychological complexity.

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Psychological Analysis: The Dark Triad

The episode features an insightful interview with Chris Hand, a psychology lecturer at Glasgow University, who explains how Simran's behavior may align with the Dark Triad traits—Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy.

Chris Hand [31:31]: "They're called the Dark triad of psychological characteristics. Those would be your typical catfishers."

He elaborates on how these traits manifest in manipulative behaviors, emphasizing the importance of understanding perpetrators to prevent future incidents.

Chris Hand [32:47]: "They might just not perceive that they've done anything wrong... something that potentially affects their motivation."

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Uncovering Simran’s Past and Early Deceptions

Alexei uncovers Simran's history of creating fake profiles during her teenage years, indicating that her deceptive behavior began at a young age. Conversations with Simran’s school friends reveal that her initial motivations may have stemmed from a desire for popularity and social validation.

Friend of Simran [26:32]: "I think her motivations were to compete with [others] through achieving more likes and comments on her Facebook posts."

These revelations suggest that Simran's actions were not isolated incidents but part of a longstanding pattern of behavior.

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The Elusive Perpetrator and Ongoing Investigation

Despite extensive efforts, Alexei still struggles to obtain a direct response from Simran. Her online presence has been minimal, with most social media accounts either closed or made private. This elusiveness adds another layer of complexity to the investigation.

Alexei Mostros [36:12]: "Despite all that, basically Simran is a ghost."

The episode concludes with Alexei contemplating his next steps, including possibly confronting Simran’s family, and underscoring the unresolved questions surrounding her motivations.

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Conclusion

Episode 4, "Dark Triads," of Sweet Bobby offers a compelling exploration into the mind of a sophisticated catfisher. By intertwining personal stories with psychological analysis, the episode sheds light on the intricate web of deception spun by Simran Bogle. As the investigation continues, listeners are left pondering the depths of human behavior and the elusive nature of understanding perpetrators.

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Notable Quotes

1. Alexei Mostros [02:09]:
   "I had more questions than answers, not least, why did she do it and how did she do it?"

2. Simran Bogle’s Lawyer [07:12]:
   "I understand that you've contacted Ms. Simran Bogle."

3. Kirat Assi [11:46]:
   "I wouldn't go anywhere on a couple of occasions... I don't know if I'd fall apart."

4. Bobby [19:18]:
   "Simran was not only catfishing Kirat, she was, while in a relationship with my brother, catfishing him at the same time."

5. Chris Hand [31:31]:
   "They're called the Dark triad of psychological characteristics. Those would be your typical catfishers."

6. Friend of Simran [26:32]:
   "I think her motivations were to compete with [others] through achieving more likes and comments on her Facebook posts."

7. Alexei Mostros [36:12]:
   "Despite all that, basically Simran is a ghost."

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Looking Ahead

In the next episode, Alexei plans to consult with a specialist barrister to understand why the police failed to investigate Simran's actions properly. Additionally, he addresses the hardball stance taken by Simran's lawyers, who deem the matter a private family dispute.

Stay tuned for more revelations in the ongoing investigation of Sweet Bobby.

Transcript

[Alexei Mostros]

Thank you for listening to Sweet Bobby. This podcast has been on an incredible journey since we released it back in 2021, and since then I've gone on to investigate a whole range of other stories. There's hoaxed about one of the most serious conspiracies in the UK and my search for the people behind it. Who trolled Amber, which digs into the bot campaign against Amber heard during the celebrity trial of the century, which Johnny Depp. And this autumn I released Elon's Spies, all about the private investigators used by one of the most powerful men on the planet, Elon Musk. So if you liked what you heard with Sweet Bobby and you want to try another of my investigative podcasts, just search for Tortoise Investigates. That's Tortoise Investigates. It's the home of all our best investigations, all in one place.

[Narrator]

Get ready for your next True Crime binge.

[Kirat Assi]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said, get to the hospital. The doctor came in and told us that there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye.

[Narrator]

This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Your customers are scrolling past your social ads, using ad blockers and paying for ad free streaming. But when they're listening to a podcast, they're hearing ACAST ads which are 4.4 times more engaging than with display ads. So if you want real attention, start advertising on podcasts with Acast. Start today at go.acast.com ads.

[Alexei Mostros]

So this is the first time that we are going to try and contact Simran Bogle. I've tried her on her work phone before, but didn't even get a voicemail. When I first found out who the catfisher was, it didn't feel as satisfying as I thought it would. In fact, I found out I had more questions than answers, not least, why did she do it and how did she do it? I mean, here was this bright, huge, young, ambitious woman, a former head girl, a high flyer who created this elaborate world of lies and tricked her own cousin for more than a decade without any discernible motive. So I was wondering, could we find out what was going on inside Simran Bogle's head? Because despite the reporting I've done and all the people I've spoken to, there were still big parts of this story that lay beneath the surface. So I had A lot of thoughts but my first thought was I want to speak to Simran now I'm going to try her mobile. We don't know if it's still in use, this is the only one that, that we've got but it's the first step in trying to get hold of her to see what she has to say. I mean if she does stay on the phone. I've spoken to Kirat about what Kirat wants to ask her but the key question is, is why? I've been rounding my head on this question. Not just why would Simran do what she did but why did she target Kira in particular and why Bobby? Okay, what do I press this button? Okay, make sure it's on loudspeaker but even as I press the call button I know it's a long shot. I mean Simran has a lot to lose. Despite confessing three years ago she's still in her job at a top firm in the city. She recently got engaged, she's going on the holidays, to parties, everything you'd expect a 29 year old woman to do which incidentally is the same age that Kirat was back in 2010 when Bobby first made contact. So for all these reasons I'm pretty sure Simran Bogle is not going to appreciate my call. Okay, there we go. Hi, Simon speaking. Hey, is that Simran Bogle? Hello? Hi, Simran speaking. Hey, sorry I think we're getting cut off a bit. Is that, is that Simran Bogle? It is, yes. Hey, I'm sorry to bother you out of the blue. As you can hear there's a lot of background noise on her side of the call but she does pick up. Kira Assi. She's made some allegations against you and as responsible journalists we wanted to make sure that you were aware of them before we published them so that you could, you could respond to them if you want. I mean it's totally your choice about whether you want to say anything but I just wanted to make sure that you knew what we were going to say. Oh but then she seems to hang up on me. I'll try again. She might have cut off.

[Bobby]

You are calling.

[Simran Bogle]

He's unable to take your call. Please leave your message after the tone.

[Alexei Mostros]

Well, it's difficult isn't it? Because it's almost as if she might have said something else if we hadn't told her exactly why we were calling. But I guess you have to explain up front what you're doing. Ah, at least we heard her voice. At least we heard her voice for the first time. It's frustrating, but it's kind of expected. I send her a follow up text just in case she got cut off, but I don't hear anything back. Okay, so do I need to do the hot. Shall I do the whole thing? After the call with Simran, I head down to the studio to record an advert for this podcast. So we're saying and one and one woman uncovering the truth. And when I was in there I get a phone call. So as you can hear, I start to leave the studio to take the call outside until Gary, my producer, starts shouting at me through the glass to get back in front of the microphone. Hello, is that Alexey Mostros? And it turns out it was Simran's lawyer? Yes, it is, Alexis Mostros. So it makes me wonder if on some level she's been expecting something like this to happen.

[Simran Bogle]

I understand that you've contacted Ms. Simran Bogle.

[Alexei Mostros]

Well, I will send you over some questions but. And you know, we want to reflect the substance of Simran's response in our publication, but we also really want to speak to Simran. Yeah, okay. The call lasts for about 20 minutes. It's the last thing I do on that Friday. No worries. Have a good weekend. Take care now. And you know what? It feels significant now Simran knows exactly what we're doing and I suppose it leaves her with a choice to make. She could speak to me directly and tell me her side of the story or she could keep her distance and let her lawyers handle it. So that was interesting. So we sent the text message at 17:07 on a Friday afternoon, 17:45. So basically half an hour later her lawyers call me up. So she's obviously gone straight to them. At least now we've got a point of contact. And I suppose that Gary and Claudia and I have to think this weekend about how to respond on Monday in a way that's not only going to make sure that she responds to our questions, but that she actually is incentivized to come and talk to us. I don't know how we're going to do that. For the moment at least, Simran is refusing to answer my questions. But speaking to Simran isn't my only option. To understand more about her, I decide to go back, all the way back before even Bobbie's first message to Kirat in 2010, because as it turns out, Simran has done this before. I'm Alexei Mostros and from Tortoise Media, you're listening to Sweet Bobby, Episode 4 Dark Triads.

[Simran Bogle]

Simran, since I've known her, has always been the perfect daughter, the girl that we were always proud of. She fits that kind of stereotypical. Good little South Asian, Punjabi, Sikh girl, academically brilliant, well behaved, quiet, smiles and nods when she needs to. But she's a psychopath, she's a narcissist, she's a psychopath, she's not right in the head. And obviously that was always a part that she played because that's how she wanted to be seen underneath it all. I don't know what goes on, really don't know what goes on.

[Alexei Mostros]

Simran confessed to the catfish in June 2018, standing on Kierat's doorstep telling her it was all me. And you might think that for Kirat this was a moment of closure. She now had confirmation that that Bobby and the entire cast of characters she had been speaking to for over 10 years were all fake. Finally she could get on with her life. But actually it didn't quite work out like that. Simran was the one that got on with her life and Kira found herself more and more isolated.

[Simran Bogle]

I've never seen her. I've not seen her since that day. I don't know how I'd feel if I saw her because nobody believed me, because everyone's wondering what I'm doing with my life because she made me look like a loser to everybody.

[Alexei Mostros]

Simran only lives 20 minutes away from Kirat in Hounslow, West London, so it wouldn't be unusual for them to bump into each other at the temple, the Gurdwara or at a party or whatever. And yet, despite Simran being the perpetrator and Kirat the victim, it was Kirat who found herself staying in.

[Simran Bogle]

It was almost like she had the power to say, I'm going to stay here. If you want to leave, you can. So I wouldn't go anywhere on a couple of occasions like, I don't know, had a gut feeling like if I go somewhere that she's going to be there and I've said to my family, I'm not going. I said, it's not because I don't want to go. I want to go but I don't know what I'd do if I saw her. I don't know if I'd fall apart. I don't know if I'd go for her. I don't know what. I don't know what would come over me. I'm not even contemplated seeing her. I feel angry with her and her immediate family for trying to cover it up and not doing the right thing.

[Alexei Mostros]

The same day that Simran confessed, her family came round to Kirat's house. Kirat describes it as a save our daughter mission.

[Simran Bogle]

It wasn't a case of actually wanting to do anything to support me, help me and genuinely be sorry. I tried to explain things to them. I explained, like, how she probably needs help. I'd cry and the dad would tell me to stop crying because of his own blood pressure. It was quite cruel.

[Alexei Mostros]

Did her parents apologize?

[Simran Bogle]

They were like, we'll help you, you know, anything. We'll pay your money back. Everything that she's made you lose, she's, you know, just please don't go to the police. And I didn't say I wasn't going to. I just said, I'm just going to do whatever I need to do.

[Alexei Mostros]

And it wasn't just Simran's parents. Other members of her community were putting pressure on her too.

[Simran Bogle]

Everyone I tried to speak to was like, just get on with it, Garrett. Just move on. It's okay. But nobody was in my shoes. Nobody understood what I'd been through, what I lost, the abuse that I'd endured, the knowledge that she had about me, of me and my family, the fact that I hadn't been able to mourn my grandmother, who she knew I was very close to.

[Alexei Mostros]

Kirat was really close to her grandmother. She was one of the few people who knew about Bobbie from the start. And when her gran got sick from cancer in 2017, Kirat sent Bobbie her medical reports. He was a cardiologist, after all, and he knew other doctors. One time, Bobby even got on the phone with Kirat's gran to talk to her about her treatment.

[Simran Bogle]

I'm glad my gran isn't around to see this.

[Alexei Mostros]

And when the treatment didn't work and Kirat's grandmother went into hospital for the last time, she wanted to talk about Bobbi. She asked for forgiveness for not being able to stay alive long enough to see them married.

[Simran Bogle]

My gran asked forgiveness, asked for his forgiveness for not staying alive long enough to see him on her deathbed. That's how cruel she was. And she knew she was doing it as well. That's the worst thing. She knew exactly what she was doing.

[Alexei Mostros]

It was cruelty like this that persuaded Kira to ignore Simran's parents. She wasn't going to give this up. She wanted the police to investigate her case. And Kira wasn't the only one. Bobby had also reported Simran to the police, telling them that she was the person who had stolen his identity. Because a few hours Before Simran confessed to Kirat, she had also confessed to Bobbie.

[Bobby]

When she sent the confession, I had to read it twice and it was a bombshell. It was a huge moment of relief, shock, like this weight had been lifted, but at the same time so confused, so confused that how is that even possible?

[Alexei Mostros]

Bobby and his family were pretty shaken up. Bobby phoned Brighton police to tell them it was Simran, but they told him that since she lived in London, there wasn't anything that they could do. In a way though, it helped Bobby to know that Simran had done it. At least there wasn't some faceless perpetrator who'd stolen their information. So they got on with their lives, tried to forget the whole thing. But it was actually only after I contacted Bobby that he decided to do some digging himself into how this whole thing got started. Because Kierat's nightmare didn't start with Bobby. Remember JJ from episode one, Bobby's younger brother? As far as Kirat knew, JJ was going out with Simran when they were both about 17. And JJ had messaged Kirat on Facebook in 2009 to ask her for some big sister advice. But he had died suddenly a few months after making contact. It was JJ's death that opened the door for Bobby to contact Kierat a year later. By now you'll be unsurprised to hear that JJ is in fact very real and very alive and he still has some text messages from Simran that shed a lot of light on this case.

[Bobby]

It was in 2008 or 2009 that she added him on Facebook and he added her. And in May 2010 my brother came over for a holiday where they met for the first time purely as friends. They liked each other and they decided to keep in touch online. A year goes by. My brother took a gap year to then try and figure out where he's gonna go. It's then at that stage he goes to India and a few months later, this is in March 2011, while my brother and Simran are having this online relationship, my brother gets contacted by a cousin of Simran, supposedly by the name of Nikki. Simran had been in a hit and run accident. A series of messages from Nikki saying how serious Simran's condition was, the words unstable, in and out of consciousness, heavily dosed on medication, the next 24 hours, critical, lost a lot of blood. These are words that were used in these messages and asking how far are you? And can you come to her deathbed? Essentially.

[Alexei Mostros]

Bobby is telling us two important things here. Firstly, back in 2009, when JJ first contacted Kirat for relationship advice, well, he wasn't going out with Simran at this point. They hadn't even met in person. But I guess that's not that bad. I mean, which teenager hasn't exaggerated a relationship? Yeah, my girlfriend's really hot. You don't know her. She goes to another school. But the second thing that Bobby was telling us was even more important.

[Bobby]

It turns out Simran was not only catfishing Harkirath, she was, while in a relationship with my brother, catfishing him at the same time with fictional characters that I can only assume are fictional because of how crazy some of these stories are.

[Alexei Mostros]

Something no one knew. Not me, not Kira, no one. Bobby had proof that JJ was being catfished by Simran at the same time as Kirat. JJ was another victim.

[Bobby]

We couldn't find out which hospital or anything about the situation, so I told my brother to sit tight. He was quite upset. But something didn't add up.

[Alexei Mostros]

Bobby's skepticism seemed justified. A few weeks after JJ was told that Simran was on death's door in the icu, she posts a photo on Facebook.

[Bobby]

My wife happened to be on Facebook or some social media platform and she saw a picture of Simran Bogle on a profile skydiving in Dubai.

[Simran Bogle]

This is the girl everyone is saying, you know, like your brother is saying he really wanted to come and see because she was dying. It's not rocket science. You are not allowed to jump out of a plane if you have a heart condition.

[Alexei Mostros]

Okay, so then what happened?

[Bobby]

Simran makes a full recovery and they continue to chat online. In January 2012, all of a sudden, this new character called Jasmeet, a cousin, supposedly a doctor, female cousin of Simran, messages my brother saying that Simran's health has deteriorated again and she's back in hospital and in for a procedure that'll take a few hours. And after that, a few messages. There seems to be some misunderstanding that took place between this Jasmeet doctor and Simran.

[Alexei Mostros]

That's interesting because that happened with Kierat a lot. And what's interesting here is how much I'm recognizing the pattern. A central character becomes incredibly ill. They're in hospital, maybe even about to die. And then other characters, sometimes family members, sometimes doctors, make contact with the catfisher's primary victim. For Kierat, her central character was Bobby. For jj, the central character was Simran herself. And what I found quite spooky was that the characters that tricked jj, they felt familiar. So I went back and I looked at Kirat's witness statement and there they were. The same characters with the same details cropping up in minor roles in Kirat's own story. So not only had Simran created a world for Kierat, she seemed to have created an entire universe, one where characters crossed over into at least two different catfishing operations. And you met her. Am I right in thinking?

[Bobby]

Briefly. And she seemed like this normal, timid, friendly face that not in a million years could do this. So you don't even think this is possible from someone like that? You almost think you could see the type of person, you could almost judge that person by what they look like. But she's the last person in a lineup I would choose as guilty for this whole story.

[Alexei Mostros]

So was JJ at the center of everything? Had Simran, this quiet, timid, academic girl, developed an obsession with Bobby's younger brother that got totally out of control? Maybe something happened between them that set her down this dark path. Or maybe it was nothing to do with JJ at all.

[Simran Bogle]

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[Narrator]

Get ready for your next true crime binge.

[Kirat Assi]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said get to the hospital. The doctor came in and told us that there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye.

[Narrator]

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[Alexei Mostros]

I recently tracked down a friend of Simran's from her school, someone who knew her at the time when all this started. And this friend remembers Simran getting caught setting up other Facebook profiles. Nothing to do with jj, nothing to do with Kierat. The friend wouldn't speak on the record. They said they were too scared of the backlash. So I sent them some questions over email and I asked Claudia, who's been helping me report this story, to read out their responses. The first thing I asked was how they found all this out.

[Friend of Simran]

Me and my friends only became aware of the fake profiles, as Simran would regularly upload holiday photos on her Facebook page. We found it surprising that she managed to travel so much, which led us to look into her posts in more detail. When we viewed the likes and comments under her posts, we found a number of comments from people with foreign names which I'm unable to remember, but it was always the same people commenting and liking all of her posts. Most of the profiles had no profile picture and were only created within the year. Also, some of her photos she had uploaded looked way too professional to be taken with an ordinary camera. When we looked into these in more detail, we were shocked to find the exact same images on Google Images. It was only then that we knew something wasn't right and that the situation was getting out of hand.

[Alexei Mostros]

And then I asked about Simran's motivations. Did anyone ever ask her why she did it?

[Friend of Simran]

I assume it was for popularity. Even though Simran was known by most in our year group, I don't think she felt like she got the attention that some other girls may have done, and I think her motivations were to compete with them through achieving more likes and comments on her Facebook posts. She didn't admit to her motives or give an explanation, but I'm fairly sure it was a cry for attention or popularity.

[Alexei Mostros]

And finally I asked the friend if Simran was upset when she had been found out. How did she react?

[Friend of Simran]

I think she was more shocked that we had managed to find out. She didn't quite know how to respond or justify her actions and was simply apologetic.

[Alexei Mostros]

This must have all happened when Simran was around 16, 17, in college, very young and to be honest, a lot of teenagers probably exaggerate on social media. Plus this was in 2008, 2009, in the early years of Facebook when nobody really knew what they were doing. But it's different now, she's an adult and to be honest, I'm not even sure that today Simran realizes the fallout from what she did. For me, finding out that Simran had catfished before was a huge step towards understanding her character. But I still know very little about her motivation. Was it power, sex, money or something else? I'm going to get a bit pretentious now, so I apologise in advance, but I want to talk about a play. It's my favourite play actually. It's Othello by Shakespeare. And when I was driving around Brighton with Kierat reliving some of her darkest moments, Othello crept back into my mind. If you haven't seen it, it's about a military commander who, despite being black in 16th century Cyprus, rises to become the head of the whole Venetian army. He marries Desdemona, a beautiful and wealthy Venetian lady, and for a while it's all good. But then one of his officers, a man called Iago, tells Othello that Desdemona is unfaithful and he manipulates other characters to make his story ring true. Driven mad, Othello eventually smothers Desdemona to death. Iago is exposed just too late. But he always refuses to explain why. Why he did it. And critics have been puzzling over Shakespeare's play for years. What were Iago's motivations? Samuel Taylor Coleridge, the romantic poet, this is double pretentious, came up with a theory. Iago didn't care about any of the usual things, revenge, jealousy, nothing like that. He was instead a motiveless malignity. Which meant that Iago destroyed Othello for no other reason apart from he could. And look, I'm not saying that Simran is some sort of Shakespearean baddie. No one was murdered. But nothing that she or anyone else has told me explains her actions. There is no clear motivation. She did get some money from Kirat, but not that much. This wasn't one of those romance scams that drain the victim's bank account and sex might be part of It. We just don't know. That's what Harvey Kierat's friend, wondered. But then again, that doesn't explain all the other fake profiles, the other lies. So maybe Simran tricked Kierat, a bit like Iago tricked Othello, simply because she could. Do you think this is the most extreme case of catfishing that you've come.

[Chris Hand]

Across in terms of the. The complexity of the narrative? Yes, it's. It's truly remarkable.

[Alexei Mostros]

Chris Hand, who you heard briefly in episode one, is a psychology lecturer at Glasgow University, and he said that some catfishers, particularly complex ones, display certain characteristics and together they're known a bit dramatically as the dark triad.

[Chris Hand]

So someone who's really high in Machiavellianism, you know, someone who really gets their jollies out of bending people to their will, people that are high in narcissism, you know, that really inflated sense of self, and people that are high in everyday psychopathy, you know, those kind of classic. They're called the Dark Tetrad or the Dark triad of psychological characteristics. Those would be your typical catfishers.

[Alexei Mostros]

I often think back to what we've been told about Simran failing to express regret. Kira and her friend Harvey, they both say that Simran didn't apologise when she confessed. And I think about another moment too. On the day before the confession, Kirk Kirat remembers driving home with Simran from Hounslow police station. Kirat was crying, even throwing up. But right next to her, Kirat says Simran sat calmly playing a computer game on her mobile phone.

[Chris Hand]

The lack of maybe contrition or empathy or emotional sort of diversity of expression is something that's fascinating because again, it might tie in with that thing about people not realizing the consequences of their actions. They might not, you know, they might not care, or, you know, they might just not perceive that they've done anything wrong. That would typically suggest someone who maybe lacks a bit of empathy, maybe has problems with emotional intelligence, maybe scores a little higher in some of these dark triad dimensions. But at the root of it, it could just be that they genuinely don't see that what they've done is problematic.

[Alexei Mostros]

We spoke to Kirat's best friend, Harvey, and she has a theory that this was so complex and so kind of well put together that it had to involve more than one person. How likely do you think that that is?

[Chris Hand]

I think we do often look for ways to make ourselves feel better. It would be a good psychological defense mechanism to try to, you know, to build this narrative about multiple perpetrat because in that case, you know, you're probably more likely to receive sympathy if you've been targeted by multiple perpetrators, you're maybe less likely to be victim blamed. But it is entirely possible that a single perpetrator with sufficient motivation and you know, the intelligence, the cognitive flexibility, the problem solving skills, little bit of technical noise, it's quite feasible that a single person built this narrative.

[Alexei Mostros]

I've spent a long time looking at the thousands of messages sent between Simran and Kirat and to me, these messages show a manipulator working at the top of their game. Whenever Kirat starts to doubt Bobbie, Simran tells her how much he loves her, tells her she's spoken to him personally, or promises that he's just about to propose marriage, it seems to me incredibly manipulative. This is just one of many examples. Kira texts Simran, I'm angry at how much effort he goes to to get what he wants and to deceive me. And Simran replies to Kirat, he loves you like crazy. He does and you know it. Even after the confession, Simrant doesn't seem to take responsibility for her own behavior. I recently found this text that she sent to Kirat a month later. I hope you're okay. And being the strong person that you are, I've genuinely lost a big sister and a best friend. And again, I'm thinking there's no sorry in that.

[Narrator]

Get ready for your next True Crime binge.

[Kirat Assi]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said, get to the hospital. The doctor came in and told us that there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye.

[Narrator]

This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and scale launches March 3. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts. And Spotify. Your customers are scrolling past your social ads, using ad blockers and paying for ad free streaming. But when they're listening to a podcast, they're hearing Acast ads, which are 4.4 times more engaging than with display ads. So if you want real attention, start advertising on podcasts with Acast. Start [e-mail] ads.

[Alexei Mostros]

We were trying to look hard at motivation because there's almost no clues as to motivation in this case. And I'm genuinely torn between thinking, well, maybe there just is no motivation, or trying to look for one quite hard and wondering, is it financial? Is it psychological? Is it sexual? Is it all three? How important is motive in these Cases.

[Chris Hand]

Motive's absolutely crucial for two reasons. One, because I think we know that victims need to understand why they've been victimized. That's an absolutely crucial part of the process. But also, as we researchers and legislators and as members of the public, we need to know about motivation too.

[Alexei Mostros]

What Chris was telling me was that there's a value in speaking to perpetrators like Simran to understand directly what makes them tick.

[Chris Hand]

You know, research tends to focus much more on the victims, but we don't yet know enough about perpetration.

[Alexei Mostros]

We're going to make quite a big effort to try and find Simran the perpetrator and talk to her. What kind of things do you think I should ask her?

[Chris Hand]

Oh, that's. Oh, you know, that's. That's a bit of a wish list, isn't it? I mean, I would be interested in finding out whether they would do what they allegedly did again to either the same person or another person. I would be interested in finding out if they recognize why the alleged victim is upset. I would be interested in finding out about if they had at any point considered stopping what they were doing.

[Alexei Mostros]

Usually when you try and find out something about a person as a journalist, the general rule is if you keep going, you'll get there. Something almost always comes up. Social media videos, something. But with Simran, despite weeks of looking, we find almost nothing. And that was almost certainly intentional. All her social media accounts are either closed or have been made private. There are little clues online. She describes herself as a traveler, a workaholic, a gym goer. Her Instagram profile reads a bit spookily. Simran, bogle the world through my lens. And we've picked up some clues from the real world too. One person who went to her engagement party remembers Simran asking everyone not to post any photos online. But apart from those breadcrumbs, there's really very little. So despite being head girl at her school, a university student, an employee of several really blue chip companies, despite all of that, basically Simran is a ghost. Okay, slow down for a second as we're going past. Okay, yeah, I think that's her house. All the curtains are drawn. I'm outside Simran's house in West London. It's a nice area, big suburban roads, tall trees, smart cars. She lives here with her family. I'm here a few days after episode three of this podcast has gone out, the one that names Simran as the perpetrator. Because I'm hoping that now she might speak to me face to face. But if not, I've written her a letter which gives her some options of how she can get in touch if she wants to tell her side of the story. I'm quite nervous. Why? Because potentially it's been quite traumatic for them potentially there's been quite a lot of pressure on Simran and her family. Suddenly this thing that they've kind of avoided talking about for three years is out in the public. So I imagine there's been some kind of heated conversations in that, in that house and I feel like I'm stepping into that. What do you think the dad might say if he opens the door? I think the dad might be really angry that, you know, we've turned up at his doorstep wanting to speak to his daughter who he's probably quite protective over. We were told that Simran is the apple of his eye but I suppose what I want to try and make him or Simran or whoever answers the door understand is that this isn't about confronting them. This isn't about kind of accusing them or getting their reaction for any dramatic effect. This is genuinely wanting to know Simran's side of the story because we do only have Kirat's side at the moment and we have no reason to doubt anything that Kat says. But knowing about what Simran's state of mind was at the time, knowing why she did it, knowing anything about the background of her actions that will help us understand it, help the listeners understand and it might even kind of turn her from being this sort of, I don't want to say villain but like two dimensional character into someone that's human and someone who we understand a little bit better than we do now. But I still don't think they're going to be friendly. Should we go and do it? Okay, we're at the door. I'm gonna ring the bell. Next week on Sweet Bobby, we take Kirat's case to a specialist barrister and ask why the police failed to investigate. Plus, Simran's lawyers play hardball. While making the series, Simran's lawyers gave us this statement on her behalf. This matter concerns a family dispute over events that began over a decade ago when I was a schoolgirl. As far as I'm concerned, this is a private family matter that has been resolved and I strongly object to the numerous unfounded and seriously defamatory accusations that have been made about me as well as details of private matters that have been shared with the media. Thanks for listening to this episode. Sweet Bobby was written and reported by me, Alexei Mostros Produced by Gary Marshall with additional reporting and production by Claudia Williams. Sound design is by Carla Patela. The executive producer is Basha Cummings.

[Narrator]

Get ready for your next True Crime binge.

[Kirat Assi]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said get to the hospital. The doctor came in and told us that there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye.

[Narrator]

This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.