Witness protection | Ep 2

Summary

Sweet Bobby: Episode 2 - Witness Protection

Podcast Information

• Title: Sweet Bobby
• Host/Author: Tortoise Media
• Description: Sweet Bobby is an award-winning investigative series uncovering the world's most sophisticated catfisher. This six-part series delves deep into the deceptive practices that blur the lines between reality and fabrication in online relationships.

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Summary

Introduction to the Investigation In Episode 2, titled "Witness Protection," host Alexi Mostres continues the gripping narrative of Kirat and her enigmatic online relationship with Bobby. The episode underscores the complexities of deep online connections and the intricacies of deception employed by sophisticated catfishers.

The Shocking Revelation The story intensifies when Bobby, previously believed to be dead, resurfaces under mysterious circumstances. Initially, Kirat receives distressing news that Bobby has been shot in Kenya, slips into a coma, and subsequently dies. However, months later, Bobby unexpectedly reappears alive in New York, claiming to be under witness protection.

• Kirat's Realization (05:04):

  "I was like, okay, what do I need to know? I'm not really that close that I needed to know anything, but I was just being there for her."

Building the Relationship Despite Bobby's physical absence, their relationship flourishes through constant communication via Facebook and Skype. Kirat becomes Bobby's primary support, often acting as his emotional anchor during his numerous health crises.

• Bobby's Declaration (10:09):

  "So I think somebody had said something that he likes you or some, you know, I think those hints had been dropped in the past."

Over time, Bobby's promises to visit London repeatedly fall through, intensifying Kirat's emotional investment and blurring the lines between reality and fiction.

Expert Insights on Coercive Control To shed light on the dynamics of Kirat and Bobby's relationship, Alexi interviews Jane Monkton Smith, a Professor of Public Protection specializing in coercive control and homicide. Jane elaborates on how Bobby's behavior fits the pattern of coercive control, a form of manipulation aimed at isolating and dominating the victim.

• Jane Monkton Smith on Coercive Control (19:30):

  "In coercive control, generally speaking, there is a stage right at the beginning that in the early relationship... They will bombard the other person with romance and love... then they'll pull back all of a sudden to make that person crave the attention again."

This manipulation cycle creates dependency, making it increasingly difficult for Kirat to extricate herself from the toxic relationship.

The Web of Deception Bobby's control extends beyond Kirat, involving a fabricated family network that reinforces the illusion of authenticity. Only a handful of these characters interact with Kirat at any given time, maintaining the facade of a real, functioning family.

• Alexi Mostres on the Sophistication of the Scam (35:34):

  "The catfisher had reverse engineered the whole thing... These characters... existed to confirm each other's allegations, even when they seemed unbelievable."

This elaborate setup ensures that Kirat remains convinced of Bobby's legitimacy, even as inconsistencies arise.

Escalation of Control and Isolation Between 2015 and 2018, Bobby's manipulative tactics escalate. He begins exerting control over Kirat's personal life, leading to significant stress-related consequences, including weight loss, job loss, and severed ties with friends.

• Kirat on Controlling Behavior (27:23):

  "I wasn't even allowing my friends to hug me, to comfort me. I belong to Bobby."

Jane Monkton Smith explains that such behavior is characteristic of coercive control, where the abuser ensures the victim's isolation and dependency.

The Climax: Bobby's Promised Arrival After years of broken promises and emotional turmoil, Bobby finally commits to visiting Kirat in London in March 2018. This moment marks a pivotal point in the narrative, hinting at potential resolution and the unmasking of the catfisher.

• Kirat on Bobby's Arrival (43:38):

  "I just wanted him here. And that was kind of the be all and end all."

Conclusion and Forward Look As the episode concludes, Alexi Mostres emphasizes the intricate layers of the deception, revealing both the emotional and psychological toll on Kirat. The expert’s insights highlight the high-risk nature of such coercive control relationships and the urgent need for awareness and intervention.

• Jane Monkton Smith on High-Risk Relationships (44:55):

  "I characterize it as high risk. Coercive control. High risk of Kirat suffering some kind of harm."

The episode sets the stage for the next installment, promising deeper revelations and the impending confrontation with the truth behind Bobby's identity.

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Notable Quotes

• Kirat (03:32):

  "And Simran told me that Bobby was actually alive and he'd been in witness protection, which was a bit of a, like, shock because he, like he died."

• Alexi Mostres (06:20):

  "By May 2014, the catfisher, the person scamming Kira online had brought Bobby back into her life."

• Jane Monkton Smith (23:02):

  "They exist to confirm each other's allegations, even when they seemed unbelievable."

• Kirat (25:08):

  "All these things were constantly happening. He's had a mini stroke, he's had this, he's got another clot in his head, he needs to be operated."

• Jane Monkton Smith (45:24):

  "I think that for me is probably the most invested and obsessive controlling person in this environment that I have seen."

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Insights and Themes

• Sophistication of Online Deception: The episode delves into the elaborate methods employed by catfishers, showcasing how they create believable backstories and support networks to maintain control over their victims.

• Psychological Manipulation: Through the lens of coercive control, the narrative highlights the subtle and overt tactics used to isolate and dominate, making victims feel dependent and powerless.

• Emotional Toll: Kirat's journey underscores the profound emotional and psychological impact of such relationships, illustrating the difficulties in recognizing and escaping from manipulative bonds.

• Expert Analysis: Jane Monkton Smith's insights provide a critical understanding of the behavioral patterns in coercive control, offering listeners a framework to identify and comprehend similar situations.

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Conclusion

Episode 2 of Sweet Bobby, "Witness Protection," masterfully unravels the dark complexities of an online manipulative relationship. Through a combination of personal narratives and expert analysis, the episode paints a comprehensive picture of the deceptive world of catfishing and the devastating effects of coercive control. As Kirat edges closer to uncovering the truth, the episode leaves listeners eagerly anticipating the next chapter in this riveting investigative series.

Transcript

[Alexi Mostres]

Thank you for listening to Sweet Bobby. This podcast has been on an incredible journey since we released it back in 2021, and since then I've gone on to investigate a whole range of other stories. There's hoaxed about one of the most serious conspiracies in the UK and my search for the people behind it who trolled Amber, which digs into the bot campaign against Amber heard during the celebrity trial of the century, which Johnny Depp. And this autumn I released Elon's Spies, all about the private investigators used by one of the most powerful men on the planet, Elon Musk. So if you liked what you heard with Sweet Bobby and you want to try another of my investigative podcasts, just search for Tortoise Investigates. That's Tortoise Investigates. It's the home of all our best investigations, all in one place.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

Get ready for your next True Crime binge.

[Kirat]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said, get to the hospital.

[Alexi Mostres]

The doctor came in and told us.

[Kirat]

That there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

This doesn't happen to people like me.

[Alexi Mostres]

A new True Crime 10 part series.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

From the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

[Kirat]

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[Alexi Mostres]

Just a quick heads up before we get started. This episode contains descriptions of coercive control and some strong language. Did you know anything about this witness protection program that he was in? I did, actually, yeah, I did. I thought it was really, really odd. I think that was like a mafia movie, wasn't it? It's like, you know, Goodfellas or something, you know. So this is when the Story starts to get weird. Like, really weird. You remember in November 2013, Kirak got a message to say that Bobbie, this handsome cardiologist she'd been speaking to online, had been shot. He'd gone into a coma, and then a few months later, he died. Well, it turns out it wasn't that simple. So it was kind of like you'd.

[Kirat]

Hear her talk about him a bit.

[Alexi Mostres]

But then because of this whole thing about witness protection, it would go quiet for a. A long time and she. She wouldn't hear from him. So there was a period when. When Bobby got shot, and then he was. He was in a coma. Right. And then he started to get better. Right. But then he died. Did he die? Okay. And then, end of act one.

[Kirat]

Act.

[Alexi Mostres]

Two, comes back alive three weeks later. Yeah, he's alive. He's alive because he's been put in witness protection. Where was he? In the U.S. bobby wasn't dead. He was alive. And not only that, he was in witness protection. You know, like in the movies, friends of Kirat, like Niren and Sarah, who you just heard, they struggle to piece this period in Kirat's life together. And they're not the only ones. Even after reading hundreds of pages of legal documents, I have trouble navigating this world. This mix of fact and fiction, fantasy and reality. It can get pretty disorientating. But not for Kierat. She remembers every detail.

[Kirat]

One day after Bobbie had passed away, it must have been about May, probably, I think, where I had A message from S.C. bobbie's widow, by the way.

[Alexi Mostres]

We're were referring to some of these people, like Bobby's widow by their initials, for legal reasons.

[Kirat]

SC who had been told to fly to New York from Nairobi. So she was in New York, and she said to me I had to know something, but she couldn't tell me. And I had to speak to Simran.

[Alexi Mostres]

Simran, that's Kiraz's younger cousin.

[Kirat]

And I was like, okay, what do I need to know? I'm not really that close that I needed to know anything, but I was just being there for her. And while I was at work, then about half an hour later or so, Simran called me. And I remember taking my phone, leaving the office, going out onto the piazza to take the call.

[Alexi Mostres]

Hello?

[Kirat]

And Simran told me that Bobby was actually alive and he'd been in witness protection, which. Which was a bit of a, like, shock because he, like he died. Yeah, I just. Just dumbstruck, speechless.

[Alexi Mostres]

By May 2014, the catfisher, the person scamming Kira online had brought Bobby back into her life. He'd been resurrected. And this was when the scam really ramped up. The sophistication, the number of characters, and soon the emotional blackmail. In a few years, the catfisher's control over Kierat would become almost absolute. I'm going to tell you exactly how that was able to happen, but to do that, I'm going to take you through what happened from Kierat's perspective, what she thought was happening. Because I don't think you can understand how this deception worked unless you put yourself in Kierat's shoes and ask yourself at each stage, what would you do? I'm Alexei Mostros from Tortoise Media. You're listening to Sweet Bobby. Episode 2 Witness Protection. Even after Bobby turned up in New York, it wasn't like he was a massive deal in Kierat's life. She was dating, she was going out, and she had her job. Bobby was more like a story you tell your work colleagues like, you're not going to believe what happened to my friend. And for a few months, it even seemed like Bobby was getting better. But then he got sick again, really sick. And at this point, Kirat felt like she could offer him some support.

[Kirat]

All I know is when somebody's that unwell and when somebody needs your help, you help them.

[Alexi Mostres]

There were blood clots, strokes, he was partially paralysed and unable to speak properly. And deep anger, which is actually quite common in patients who've been through a trauma. At one point, Bobby even tried to kill himself. One of the nurses found him just in time. But how did Kirat know all this? Well, Bobby was sending her messages on Facebook. Messages like this one. I don't deserve you guys, so please don't bother. I do miss you all, but I don't deserve it. But she was also getting regular updates on Bobby's condition from his friends and his family, as well as his consultants at the hospital. Usually, Kirat would reply with voice notes, short recordings you can send instead of a text message.

[Kirat]

Has this all been too much the last couple of days? The last week even?

[Alexi Mostres]

And what's amazing about these voice notes is that we can basically listen in real time to how their relationship unfolded.

[Kirat]

I don't like you feeling like this.

[Alexi Mostres]

Over the months, Kirat found that she could offer Bobby something they couldn't. Out of everyone, Bobby seemed to respond best to her. So she found herself being the one to tell him off if he drank too much, praying for him before a risky operation. She was slowly becoming Bobby's crutch.

[Kirat]

Something's bothering you, and I can't work out what it is. And you seem to not be able to work it out either. Are you just not well? Do you just have a bad feeling about something that you can't put your finger on?

[Alexi Mostres]

Those first years, 2014 and 15, some other pretty weird stuff was happening as well. Bobby's wife started acting oddly. She flew over to be by Bobby's side in New York, and then she disappeared for a few days before turning up with no explanation. And Bobby, he started drinking a lot. Sneaking out of hospital to drink in bars and getting into fights. To Kira, it seemed almost like he was daring her to give up on him.

[Kirat]

It was kind of like he was on a vengeful, challenging, like, I'm gonna kill myself, let's see what you guys are gonna do about it. It was very much that way. That was his mindset, and it was really disturbing.

[Alexi Mostres]

And this continued until one day, about seven months after he returns from the dead, Bobby confesses his feelings for Kierat.

[Kirat]

So I think somebody had said something that he likes you or some, you know, I think those hints had been dropped in the past. I needed to deal with stuff. I had a lot going on. And he was not well. He just wasn't in the right state of mind. He didn't know what he was saying. As far as I was concerned, he was very delicate, you know, fragile. I think we'd had had him sectioned in the hospital at one point.

[Alexi Mostres]

When I hear Kirat talk like this, it's so clear to me that she believed in this created world and to an extent, still does. You can hear it in how she speaks about it, that in her mind, an element of it is all still real.

[Kirat]

I think I did at some point say it to him that I don't think you know what you're saying kind of thing. But then I had. The whole thing is you're belittling my feelings and you're just telling me they're not real. I am. I do know what I'm saying kind of thing. And then he started telling me how far back his feelings for me went.

[Alexi Mostres]

I think it's worth pointing out something here. Bobby's declaration of love. That came four years after his first contact with Kierat. This wasn't some whirlwind love affair. This was a slow burn. Whoever was behind this deceit, they were patient. A few months later, on Valentine's Day 2015, Kira and Bobby officially became a couple. And even then, Kira had reservations, obviously.

[Kirat]

I did have feelings for him. Whether they were the right kind of feelings, question mark, massive question mark, because everybody kept saying it to me. And then his life expectancy was so short, we knew he wasn't going to last for months. He could die with his next operation. And so it was a case of he deserves happiness for the time that he's got left and it's not like I can do anything physical with him or anything like that. So I wasn't worried about that side of things. It was more granting his kind of dying wish in a way. So I cared about Bobby a lot. I loved him as a friend, as a brother or whatever it was, not as a brother anymore. But what was I going to lose by making a very sick man happy?

[Alexi Mostres]

But the thing is, whatever the crisis, Bobby always seemed to be able to pull through. And over time, their relationship developed and eventually Kierat was won over, despite having a boyfriend in hospital in New York with life threatening injuries, who remember, she'd only ever met once back in that Brighton nightclub, and who couldn't even tell her the name of his doctor for security reasons. Despite all of that, Kierat felt head over heels.

[Kirat]

You mean everything to me.

[Alexi Mostres]

You could hear it in her messages to him at the time. She's besotted, invested. And listening to them makes me realise that despite all these red flags and all the obstacles, some part of her just wanted to believe that all of this could have a happy ending.

[Kirat]

I love you. I missed you so much today, Sweets, so much. I really hope you're not too down.

[Alexi Mostres]

Today. I caught myself smiling for no reason. Then I realized I was thinking about you. This is torture. I love you so much. Please don't ever forget. I know a few people in long distance relationships and it's not always easy battling time zones and months apart, but most of them make it work. And even though this was definitely an odd situation, there were parts of it that feel familiar. Bobby and Kirat would have these long Skype calls, some lasting 13 hours at a time. They'd log in in the evening, talk for a bit and then fall asleep listening to each other breathe. A friend of mine used to do that actually with his girlfriend in America. There was an extra reason too. The Skype calls meant that she could listen out in case Bobby had a medical emergency. But even as their relationship grew stronger, there was one thing about Bobby's Skype calls that never changed. He never turned his camera on. Still, it was, in a very modern way, romantic. If they couldn't be in the Same bedroom. Then the Skype calls were the closest thing to it. And they had date nights together too. They cook a meal and and watch Apprentice on tv, giggling together on different sides of the Atlantic. Kira in her bedroom in London. Bobby in a hospital in Manhattan. During this period, Kira even recorded and housed this for devotion. An entire Harry Potter book for Bobby, just so he had something to listen to.

[Kirat]

Harry heard from Hogwarts one sunny morning about a week after he arrived at the borough he and Ron went down.

[Alexi Mostres]

To and they messaged constantly about everything. About buying a house together, about what they would call their children, about what their families would say when they knew, but mostly about when Bobby was finally going to come to the uk.

[Kirat]

Stay positive, you know. We'll be together really soon, you see.

[Alexi Mostres]

Bobby kept promising to come home, back to London. He wanted to transfer to a hospital closer to Kirat, where he could restart his medical career as a cardiologist.

[Kirat]

Just want to work out how long it's going to be if I can see you.

[Alexi Mostres]

Kira kept getting excited. This was a voice note she sent to Bobby around that time.

[Kirat]

This time next week. In a week you could be here. Wow. Wow. I'm still deciding what I should be wearing to pick you up. I'm so excited.

[Alexi Mostres]

But here's the thing. Something always got in the way. There was always a reason he couldn't travel.

[Kirat]

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[Jane Monkton Smith]

Get ready for your next true crime binge.

[Kirat]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said, get to the hospital.

[Alexi Mostres]

The doctor came in and told us.

[Kirat]

That there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

This doesn't happen to people like me.

[Alexi Mostres]

A new True Crime 10 part series.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

From the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now. On Apple podcasts and Spotify.

[Kirat]

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But some opinions are more useful than others. And we all want the good ones, the ones that shake things up, spark debates and change minds. Financial Times readers know that their opinions are reliable because they're shaped by trusted journalism. Robust opinions, confident decisions. Source FT to subscribe, go to FT.comSourceFT.

[Alexi Mostres]

We all have that one friend whose opinion we trust on everything. For 63% of podcast listeners, that friend is their favorite podcast host. When Acast's podcast endorse a brand, their audience listens and takes action. So if you want a recommendation that really sticks, put your brand in their hands. Book a host Red sponsorship today by visiting go.acast.com ads so do you mind just starting off, just introducing yourself for the podcast, telling us a bit about who you are and what kind of work you do?

[Jane Monkton Smith]

I'm professor of Public Protection at the University of Gloucestershire. I specialize in coercive control and homicide. My name's Jane Monkton Smith.

[Alexi Mostres]

Coercive control is when someone uses threats or manipulation to isolate a victim or to take away their independence. And what Bobby was doing was something pretty typical in a controlling relationship, creating.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

Barriers, the research suggests. In an ordinary relationship, you might meet someone. You know, that thing, oh, love at first sight, that has a shelf life. It develops into something else. It develops into something more grounded and maybe stronger and more mature. But where there are barriers to the relationship reaching a conclusion, that stage can last much, much, much longer and retain that intensity. It never gets to that stage, really, where it's developed into, you know, a mature, equitable relationship between two people.

[Alexi Mostres]

Every month that went by, the volume of messages from Bobby increased. If Kirat wasn't actually on her phone, she could hear it buzzing away in her bag or in her car. It was Bobby making himself heard. And you might be wondering, heard how? Because Bobby mostly typed, yes, he did speak over Skype, but his voice there was just a whisper. One of his operations damaged his vocal cords, he said. And this year, when Kirat downloaded all her Facebook messages between her and Bobby, it became clearer that this might have been deliberate, this lack of voice. We've got literally thousands of examples of Kierat's own voice notes, but none of Bobby's, because Skype doesn't save calls, and he never recorded any voice notes himself. When I started to wade through this all, I began to wonder how purposeful this all was. Did the person behind this deceit not want their voice preserved? There is one way you can Hear Bobby, it's through the bleeps of his messages coming in. It's quite ethereal, like something from another world at all.

[Kirat]

Have to measure up your thumb first. As long as it's not like more than a third bigger than my thumb. I have small hands.

[Alexi Mostres]

Did you hear the bleeps? That's the catfisher. By now Kirat was really into Bobby and look, they're two adults trying to make a relationship work long distance. And obviously I was wondering about the physical side of things. Your relationship with Bobby did develop an intimate side as well?

[Kirat]

Yeah. As in we had an intimate relationship but it wasn't obviously not physical and there was no, you know, people like sordid details but there were no like photos or videos or anything. It's. Yeah, so there was nothing like that at all.

[Alexi Mostres]

For Kirat, having an intimate relationship like this was a really big deal. It took a lot for her to trust someone in that way. There's a lot about those early months in Kirat's relationship which seem happy reading Harry Potter, having date nights. But when I tell experts about it, they tell me things that make these events take on a much darker perspective because specialists like Jane Monckton Smith recognise that all of this, it's part of a pattern.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

So in coercive control, generally speaking, there is a stage right at the beginning that in the early relationship, and it's often referred to as the honeymoon stage, where one, one or both people will be representing themselves as maybe a little bit different to who they actually are. They're going to put themselves in the best possible light and very controlling people will want to be able to establish their control over a person incredibly quickly. So what they tend to do is bombard the other person with romance and love and that kind of thing, which can be very persuasive. But they will often pull back all of a sudden to make that person crave the attention again. So they'll give them all of this attention which the person is loving and is producing dopamine and all these wonderful things, then they'll just withdraw it purposely, Purposely. And that person will then do anything for them to crave, to get that attention back again. And that can create a cycle.

[Alexi Mostres]

And when you take a step back and look at Bobbie and Kirat's relationship from the outside, you can see it. The love bombing messages, the promises, the last minute disappointments. I just want to hold you in my arms and never let you go. You are the best thing that has ever happened to me. Instead, I let you down and Hurt you badly. And it only got worse. By the end of 2015, Bobby had become more and more controlling. Why are you studying now so you get a proper job? Because I'm not like your ex who'll tolerate you going out.

[Kirat]

Bobby's always calling me and it got to the point where, like I tried to call you, who you're on a call with. Oh, your phone line was busy. Who are you talking to? He knew everything I did. He knew absolutely everything I did.

[Alexi Mostres]

Every time Kira didn't do exactly what Bobby wanted or she questioned the relationship or something Bobby was telling her or even just did something for herself, like getting her eyebrows threaded without telling him, something would happen. He would freak out or even worse, have a stroke or some sort of medical emergency. And often Kirat would be on the other end of the phone. When that happened. Between 2015 and 2018, Bobby went from one health crisis to the next.

[Kirat]

All these things were constantly happening. He's had a mini stroke, he's had this, he's got another clot in his head, he needs to be operated. And these big things became normal. I can't keep a track of how many. I mean, it was the norm.

[Alexi Mostres]

For Kierat. It was terrifying worrying about sometimes even listening to the person she loved jolting from one near death experience to the next.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

In a situation that is only online, you're, you know, your choices are limited, aren't they? And if you really think this person's going to leave, probably you're going to start panicking. So you're going to do something big and dramatic. I've seen in some cases that as somebody's walking out the door, they'll suddenly get a marriage proposal to bring them back. If this is online, if somebody's feigning a heart attack, you have distracted them from leaving you. They're not going to walk out and leave you now. They're going to get an ambulance, they're going to worry about you, there's going to be follow up, they're going to how are you? They have guaranteed contact, given them time to manipulate the situation back into their hands.

[Alexi Mostres]

And it wasn't just the constant emergencies or guilt trips. Bobbi got jealous, like really jealous of callers on Kirat's radio show, of things she was posting on Facebook. You're not as innocent as you make yourself out to be. Biggest fucking joke, even of her friends.

[Kirat]

I wasn't even allowing my friends to hug me, to comfort me. I'd be like, just don't touch me. I belong to Bobby. Because I was scared of what he might think, even though he didn't know I was there. I just wanted to be very clear. I wanted the lines to be very clear. This is not, you know, I was just so scared of being accused of doing something wrong.

[Alexi Mostres]

Did she ever talk to you about any behavior on Bobby's part that you thought was controlling? I think she did. Now you're saying. I remember. Yeah. And he was quite controlling and he was quite possessive. And I thought, that's a bit odd as well. If he's not here to see you, why is he controlling? Why is he possessive? Basically, she would dance to his tune, which is really annoying for me. It's like, who is this guy, you know, to make you, my friend, behave in this way, to become so subservient and kind of like fear. It felt like. It felt like she was acting out of fear, fear of upsetting him. If Bobby didn't like how she was behaving, he would even threaten to cheat on Kirat with his nurse, a woman called Maria. Fuck it. I'm going out with Maria for a walk. Don't bother calling me tonight. I might be with her pretty soon. Kierat was signed off work because of stress. She lost weight, a lot of it. She stopped talking to her friends. She fell up with Harvey, her best friend. She even quit her beloved radio show.

[Kirat]

It is the.

[Alexi Mostres]

Do you remember a time when all this was happening when you. You saw her and you. You. You were shocked by how she. How she looked? Yeah, I was actually shocked at how much weight she lost because she was really thin. And I obviously didn't want to go on about it because, you know, you don't want to make her feel conscious about it. But I was like, oh, my God, she's really lost a lot of weight. Yeah, she. She didn't look. She didn't look good.

[Kirat]

You knew she was stressed.

[Alexi Mostres]

You knew she wasn't eating properly, and she would say, she's not eating properly. And it's the sort of thing, like.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

We'D meet up for lunch and I'd.

[Alexi Mostres]

Be like, k, you need to eat more because you're wasting away. Some of the stories Kiret tells me, they're hard to hear. Between 2015 and 2018, particularly, Bobbie's control escalated. There was one time in 2016 when Kirat started getting chest pains and Bobby pressurized her into having a mammogram to check for cancer. He was a cardiologist, after all. Why wouldn't she listen to him? And he promised her that he would be there in person in the UK by the time the appointment came round. So Kirat booked it. But yet again, Bobby broke his promise. He didn't get to London on time, but that wasn't the worst bit. Kirat went for the appointment on her own and it was a pretty scary experience. Later, when Bobby heard that her consultant happened to be male, he freaked out. How dare she let another man touch her like that. By April 2016, Bobby had made no fewer than six promises to Kirado to come to the UK, and all of them broken. But on the seventh time, he seemed to be serious. It was now more than a year into their relationship and Kirat's family was starting to ask questions. This time, Kirat pulled out all the stops.

[Kirat]

I bought new things for the house, like new bins, sorted out a new cutlery and crockery, totally repainted the kitchen units. Unit stripped them down, took them into the garage.

[Alexi Mostres]

She arranged to take six weeks off work, most of it unpaid. She even had her bathroom redone. All for Bobby.

[Kirat]

I'm a bit mad but all because of you Baby it's all because of you but you know it is because of you the catalyst.

[Alexi Mostres]

And then a few days before Bobby was due to arrive, he picked a fight with her over the phone.

[Kirat]

Something wasn't right and I just kept saying, you know, what's wrong?

[Alexi Mostres]

And suddenly, while he was arguing with her, Bobby had a huge heart attack with Kirat on the other end of the line. And then the line goes dead.

[Kirat]

And I was shaking and I was in tears and I was just screaming for him down the phone and getting nothing back.

[Alexi Mostres]

Distraught, Kierat rushed home. She threw some clothes in a bag and drove to Heathrow Airport. She had to make sure Bobby was okay. But then, literally, as she was at the check in desk about to book a ticket, one of Bobbie's cousins calls her. An older woman called kb. Maybe you were in the wrong. KB suggests to Kierat. Bobby was stressed out about coming to see you, she says, and his heart gave out. In other words, it's your fault. Kierat was devastated. Do you know where the term catfish comes from? I'm not talking about what it means here to trick someone online using fake identities. I'm talking about how it was coined. I mean, why catfish? Well, perhaps unsurprisingly, it comes from a story about fish, and specifically about cod. Shipped from Alaska to China. On the way, the cod is kept alive. They're stored in big tanks on the ship, but by the time the cod gets To China, the flesh tastes bland and mushy. And then one fisherman had a genius idea. If he could find a way to keep the cod swimming, then maybe he could improve the taste. So he put a catfish in the tank with the cod. Catfish eat cod. So now the cod had a reason to swim and as a result, they stayed fresh. Now, I've looked into this story a bit, this catfish origin story, and here's the thing, it sounds pretty unlikely, doesn't it? I mean, wouldn't you just get one massive catfish left in the tank at the end of the trip? And actually, there's very little evidence to suggest that the story is true. It actually comes from a documentary filmed in 2010, the one that eventually became the popular MTV show Catfish. In the film, the husband of a woman who is revealed to be creating all these fake identities online, he tells this story in order to justify her actions. What he was saying was, like the catfish, his wife made life more interesting for the people she tricked. So maybe even the term catfish is a type of catfish, a positive spin on a behavior that can actually have devastating consequences. Last year, a group of US psychologists found that nearly one in four women and one in three men admitted to catfishing online. To one extent or another. Given that 40% of relationships now start online, that's a lot of potential for harm. Even though I know that catfishing is a very real problem, that didn't mean I always found it easy to listen to Kirat's story. I mean, I had a lot of questions, like how come Kirat didn't get suspicious that Bobby had never sent her a video? And if Bobby was shot in Kenya, why did he turn up in New York? Why was he in witness protection in the first place? And why could other people like his ex wife go to see him, but not Kirat? There's no denying it. There were a lot of holes in this story. So I was thinking, is Kirat just a bit gullible? And then I learnt more about the scam, how creative it was, the sophistication. It's almost admirable. I'll give you one example. One day, Bobby asked Kirat to help him choose some clothes for his baby son.

[Kirat]

We were picking up clothes from, like, mother care and things like that. And then when pictures had been shared of him with Bobby, and then obviously he then shared them with me of his son, he'd be wearing some of the clothes we picked.

[Alexi Mostres]

Let's just talk through what happened. Bobby and Kirat go online to shop for baby clothes and then A couple of weeks later, Kirat receives some pictures of the baby wearing the clothes they'd chosen together. So that must mean Bobby was real, right? Because how could that happen if he wasn't? This is always one of the first stories I tell people when I talk about the case, and I think about it a lot because I think it gives you a real insight into the person behind all this and how they operate. Here's what actually happened. Remember I told you in episode one that Bobby was real? As in, there's a real Bobby out there who is separate from the character that Kierat is speaking to? Well, the catfisher somehow got hold of his photos, including a photo of Bobby's real son wearing some baby clothes, and somehow they'd managed to work out where these clothes were bought from and then had tricked Kierat into thinking that she had chosen the clothes herself. The catfisher had reverse engineered the whole thing. And there's a second reason why Kierat was ready to believe Bobbie, and it's probably the most important one of all. As I mentioned in episode one, Bobby was far from the only person speaking to Kierat at this point. He was just one of a cast of characters and this cast was made up of dozens of people. Like the time when Kirat joined a Facebook group with about 20 members of Bobby's extended family, some of whom Kierat recognised.

[Kirat]

You know, I was like, really happy that he was doing this, obviously, because he was taking the step into introducing me to his family.

[Alexi Mostres]

Bobby had promised to introduce her and he said this was a good way of doing it.

[Kirat]

And, you know, there was loads of banter and jokes in there about Bobby and his cooking and his behaviors and the things he'd done and liked in the past.

[Alexi Mostres]

Most of the characters were friendly to Kierat.

[Kirat]

It was nice. Everyone was really nice and warm and welcoming, apart from one of the sister in laws who's very close with sc. She left the group.

[Alexi Mostres]

She was apparently loyal to Bobbie's ex wife and didn't like Kirat for that reason. But she was fake too. They were all fake. The key bit here is that in total, dozens of different characters were used to trick Kira. All of them interacting with each other as if they had autonomous lives. Some of them totally imagined, some of them based on real people. And the catfisher was behind all of them. These characters, they'd come in and out of Kirat's life on and off stage as they were needed, but most of the time she was speaking to a much smaller group. Of people. If you think of the dozens of cousins and their husbands as a supporting cast, there were also the main players in a film. These guys would be the stars. And at any time Kirat was speaking to about four of them, not including Bobby. There was Bobby's ex wife, SC RN, who was also a medic and who was by Bobby's bedside for much of his treatment. KB, an older cousin of Bobby's, the one who talked to Kierat at the airport, and yj, another cousin, but this time a male and much younger. And they all had very different characters and they were all constantly texting, messaging and phoning Kirat like all of the time. And Kirat would talk to her friends in the real world about Bobbie too, like Neren and Sarah, or her cousin Simran or Harvey, her best friend. When I was reading the witness statement, Kirat had to give me an actual spreadsheet to keep up with all these names. So I'm certainly not going to expect you to remember all of this. But the important thing is that all these characters worked together. They existed to confirm each other's allegations, even when they seemed unbelievable. In domestic abuse cases, this type of behavior is called toxic triangulation, making something seem real by having more than one person tell it. The catfisher had another tactic too. Bobby started talking directly to Kierat's family, like her mum and her brother, even her cousins, feeding them snippets of information which they would then tell Kierat. It was a positive reinforcement loop. Anytime Kirat started to doubt something someone she trusted told her it was true.

[Kirat]

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[Jane Monkton Smith]

Get ready for your next True Crime binge.

[Kirat]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said get to the hospital.

[Alexi Mostres]

The doctor came in and told us.

[Kirat]

That there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

This doesn't happen to people like me.

[Alexi Mostres]

A new True Crime 10 part series.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

From the makers of Sword and scale launches March 3 subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

[Alexi Mostres]

I've spent days talking to Kierat about what happened to her, immersing myself in her relationship with Bobbie. But I still only have Kierat's version of events. And I know I need to speak to the other person at the center of all this. I need to speak to the real Bobby, the person whose whole identity had been stolen by the catfisher. Now, I've always known there was a real Bobby and a fake Bobby. But what I still don't know at this point is exactly how much the real one knows. What's his role in all of this? One of the people I've been speaking to during this investigation is a lawyer called Amrit. Amrit's been helping Kirat and he also knows Bobby. And for weeks I've been asking Amrit to pass on a message to Bobby, and finally one day he says yes. He tells me he's meeting Bobby in person very soon. He's not exactly sure when, but he'll give me a call as soon as it happens. And I'm nervous because if Bobby says no, then that's a big piece of the puzzle that I'm never going to see. Now, the thing with investigations like this is that nothing ever happens quite how you plan it. So when Amrit does call me, I'm in a really loud restaurant and I missed the call. And this is so annoying because I don't know how many more opportunities I'm going to get. So I try and call Amrit back, but he's not picking up. And then eventually he does. Hi. Hi. Looks so sorry about that. No, don't worry. So you spoke to Bobby? Yeah, I spoke to him and him and his friends. It worked out really well. Bobby is understandably nervous, but he might be willing to talk, and I'm excited. So I call Claudia, part of the team working on this series, to let her know. So we have to kind of go through some processes, like he's still a bit anxious, so we have to go down to Brighton to see him.

[Kirat]

That's amazing. And did he give a kind of a time frame for this? Is it tomorrow? Is it next week?

[Alexi Mostres]

It seems like step by step were getting closer to Bobby back in Kirat's world. She was also getting closer to Bobbie, the fake one.

[Kirat]

I just wanted him here. And that was kind of the be all and end all. And he seemed to finally understand. And he just said, I think. I think this is the way it happened. I hope I'm not confusing it with so many other times that he said he was coming, but it was a case of literally, I need you here and that's it. And he's like, I'm coming.

[Alexi Mostres]

This is our year. Love you so much. By March 2018, three years into their relationship and eight years after Kirat first started to speak to Bobby online, he finally arrives in London.

[Kirat]

So much had happened since the first time he was going to come and how many times he was going to. I don't know how many times he was going to come. I've never counted. To be honest, after all those years.

[Alexi Mostres]

Of broken promises, in Kirat's mind at least, all that hardship was about to be over. Next week on Sweet Bobby, a big part of the puzzle falls into place as the Catfisher is revealed. Would you characterize the relationship between Bobbi and Kira as a coercive control relationship?

[Jane Monkton Smith]

I characterise it as high risk. Coercive control.

[Alexi Mostres]

What do you mean by high risk?

[Jane Monkton Smith]

High risk of Curat suffering some kind of harm. Serious Harry.

[Alexi Mostres]

And last question. Have you ever met, read or come across anyone like.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

I think that for me is probably the most invested and obsessive controlling person in this environment that I have seen. Personally, I think she needs prosecuting. Personally, I think she needs prosecuting because if the. If everybody thinks this is the end and she will never behave like this again, they're wrong. She will.

[Alexi Mostres]

Thanks for listening to this episode. Sweet Bobby was written and reported by me, Alexi Mostres, produced by Garry Marshall, with additional reporting and production by Claudia Williams. Sound design is by Carla Patella. The executive producer is Basha Cummings.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

Get ready for your next True Crime binge.

[Kirat]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said, get to the hospital.

[Alexi Mostres]

The doctor came in and told us.

[Kirat]

That there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye.

[Jane Monkton Smith]

This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.