Episode 316

Summary

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Sword and Scale – Episode 316

Release Date: September 6, 2025
Main Theme:
This episode explores the tragic case of Kenneth Herring, a 62-year-old man killed after a traffic accident in Clayton County, Georgia, by a 21-year-old woman, Hannah Payne. Through raw 911 calls, witness accounts, trial coverage, and unfiltered narration, the podcast investigates how an ordinary person can cross the fine line into monstrous behavior—and how justice unfolded.

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Episode Overview

The episode dissects the shocking sequence of events on May 7, 2019, when an accident, the actions of bystanders, and one woman's decision to “get involved” spiraled into homicide. Sword and Scale uses chilling first-person accounts, court audio, and commentary to grapple not only with the facts of the case but the unsettling realities of human nature, self-righteousness, and the catastrophic costs of crossing boundaries that should never be crossed.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Crossing the Line from Ordinary to Monster

• Host’s Theme Statement (03:51):
  “There is a line between a man and a monster… Most people will never cross it… But under the right… or wrong circumstances, even the most ordinary person can unravel.”
• Reflection on how the podcast seeks to expose the triggers that turn “normal” people into perpetrators of violence.

2. The Traffic Accident (04:19–10:45)

• The Crash:
  Kenneth Herring, appearing dazed, runs a red light and collides with a tractor trailer.
• First Observations:
  Off-duty correctional officer Terry Robinson and witness Hannah Payne both call 911.
  • Robinson: “I seen this maroon vehicle come, bam, hit the side of the truck.” (04:58)
• Kenneth’s Odd Behavior:
  He seems confused, possibly drunk, but according to Robinson, may be medically compromised—later speculated to be diabetic shock.
• 911 Response Delay:
  Due to heavy traffic and other incidents, police and paramedics do not arrive for over 20 minutes.

3. The Pursuit (10:45–12:47)

• Kenneth Leaves Scene:
  Against advice, Kenneth flees the crash site; Payne follows in her Jeep after confirming with the 911 dispatcher she’s “catching up to him right now.”
• Dispatcher Warns Payne:
  911 operator instructs: “We actually do not want you to chase him. We just want you to be safe.” (30:32)
  • Payne replies: “I understand 100%. I’m just gonna get the tag number if nothing else...” but refuses to stop following.

4. The Fatal Confrontation (12:22–16:23)

• Showdown and Shooting:
  Payne blocks Herring’s truck and aggressively confronts him.
  • Witness: “She said, get the f out the truck to him a bunch of times.” (26:14)
  • Another witness: “She was punching the man in the truck repeatedly...and then she pulled the gun out after punching him repeatedly.” (28:22)
• The Gunshot:
  Payne’s gun fires, fatally wounding Herring.
  • Payne tells 911: “He pulled the trigger of my gun in my hand…” (Trying to claim Herring shot himself.) (32:38)
• Witnesses Describe Her Demeanor:
  One bystander: “She was calm, like, aloof… She was so right in that moment. She felt like she had done something.” (33:17)

5. Aftermath and Investigation (16:23–25:10)

• Autopsy:
  Shows Herring died of a gunshot wound. No drugs or alcohol detected; later confirmed he was an insulin-dependent diabetic—likely suffering a medical emergency.
  • “Diabetic shock doesn’t cause aggression. It usually causes dizziness, confusion, and also weakness.” (25:10)
• Reconstruction of Payne’s Actions:
  Multiple witnesses contradict Payne's narrative of self-defense, describing her as the overwhelming aggressor.

6. Trial Coverage: The Case Against Payne (34:55–63:48)

• Grand Jury and Charges:
  Payne is indicted on eight felony counts, including malice and felony murder. Trial is delayed years by COVID-19 court backlog.
• Prosecutor’s Opening:
  “Defendant Hannah Renee Payne had the audacity to chase, corner, detain, assault, and shoot and kill an unarmed 62 year old… all because she didn’t like his driving.” (39:04)
• 911 Audio as Damning Evidence:
  Payne’s statements during the call contradict her courtroom testimony.
• Prosecution’s Main Points:
  • Payne was told repeatedly not to pursue.
  • She escalated the situation, had no legal standing, and could have left.
  • “You can’t poke a bear and then when the bear turns around and attack, you want to claim self-defense. It doesn’t work that way.” (61:05)
• Defense’s Argument:
  • Maintains Payne was attacked, presents evidence of bruises and torn clothing.
  • Portrays her as naive, not malicious: “a young girl that got caught up in the wrong situation with a good heart and good intention.” (62:38)
• Payne Testifies:
  • Claims she was following instructions from an off-duty officer and 911.
  • Insists she only intended to get a license plate for police; felt threatened by Herring.
  • Many statements disproved by recorded 911 calls and eyewitnesses.
• Prosecution’s Cross-Examination:
  • Systematic breakdown of inconsistencies, highlighting Payne’s refusal to mind her own business.
  • Payne claims: “Trying to do the right thing is not the right answer.” (54:43)

7. The Verdict and Sentencing (63:48–69:24)

• Guilty on All Counts:
  Jury returns a unanimous verdict after only two hours.
  • Family’s reaction: “All I could say was thank you, thank you, thank you.” (64:00)
• Sentencing:
  Payne receives life in prison with the possibility of parole, plus an additional 13 years to be served consecutively. Realistically, she won’t be eligible for parole until age 78.
  • “Ms. Payne is going away for life with the possibility of parole... that will be the first time that she will be able to come up for parole.” (69:24)
• Family Pleads for Maximum:
  “The same sentence that she gave him, I would like to see the same sentence given to her.” (68:45)
• Host's Reflection:
  “The murder of Kenneth Herring wasn’t the work of a cold blooded killer, but rather several moments where someone’s worst instincts took over... In chasing a moment of control... she destroyed countless lives, including her own.” (67:44–69:50)

8. Broader Themes: Racism, Public Opinion, and Human Nature (64:24–66:32)

• No Racial Motivation Found:
  Although the case drew national attention and allegations of racial bias, prosecutors and Herring’s family insisted it was about Payne’s actions and lack of accountability, not race.
  • “Only Hannah Payne knows why she did it. But the fact that...she had an African American boyfriend... throws out, you know, hate out there, you know, race.” (65:19)
• Host’s Closing Thoughts:
  Reiterates the show’s central message: the line between the average person and a killer is disturbingly thin; self-righteousness and adrenaline can have devastating, irreversible results.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Host on the core philosophy *(03:51):
  “Not every killer is born a monster. Some are made, shaped by pressure, by pain, by a perfect storm of events that turn any human into something unrecognizable.”
• Host mockingly critiques Payne's self-victimization *(53:21):
  “Here we go with the tears, of course... This eternal victimhood, it’s fucking exhausting.”
• Prosecutor’s scathing point *(61:05):
  “You can’t poke a bear, and then when the bear turns around and attack, you want to claim self defense. It doesn’t work that way.”
• Payne’s mother to media *(36:18):
  “This was an unfortunate situation... but not at the hands of my daughter.”
• Kenneth’s brother on grief *(16:23):
  “No more Christmas, no more birthdays, no more family gatherings... His grandchildren know him... but they don’t have a father anymore.”
• Host’s sobering conclusion *(69:50):
  “One pull of a trigger was all it took for an ordinary woman to become a murderer. The line between man and monster isn’t as thick as we’d like to think.”
• On the “Karen” phenomenon *(63:04):
  “The prosecution painted her as an entitled and smug Karen who took the law into her own hands and ended up killing an innocent man.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Setting up the “thin line” theme: 00:35–03:51
• Accident & initial 911 calls: 04:19–10:45
• Payne’s pursuit & dispatcher warnings: 10:45–12:47, 30:32–31:12
• Witnesses describe the shooting: 26:14, 28:22, 29:32
• Autopsy & medical findings: 17:26–24:38
• Discrediting self-defense claim: 25:10–28:58
• 911 call audio evidence: 30:32–32:38
• Family & community reactions: 64:00, 68:45
• Host’s commentary on the meaning of the case: 67:44–69:50

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Overall Tone and Style

The podcast blends gritty, unfiltered details with dark humor, cynicism, and biting social commentary. The host is blunt, often sarcastic, and unapologetically confrontational—particularly in criticizing self-righteousness, performative “heroism,” and gender stereotypes. The episode is honest, unsettling, and spares no one: not Payne, the witnesses, or the broader public.

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Summary for the Uninitiated

If you haven’t listened, Episode 316 of Sword and Scale is an unflinching look at a modern tragedy born of ordinary arrogance: a young woman’s urge to “be a hero,” a misunderstood emergency, authoritative overreach, and the consequence of refusing to stand down. Through harrowing calls, relentless cross-examination, and the raw reactions of witnesses and families, the episode provides an unsparing portrait of personal downfall, legal reckoning, and the universal lesson that the monster is often made, not born—sometimes by simply refusing to mind your own business.

Transcript

[Host]

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Listener discretion is advised. He was pulling my wrist and he pulled me in the vehicle. And he's reaching and he's pulling. When you are being held against your will and you have no idea what's ahead of you, it felt like it lasted forever. Oh, boy.

[Host]

Are you guys not gonna like this one. The misogyny does run thick here at Sword and Scale. Enj Sam There is a line between a man and a monster. And when I say man, I'm also obviously talking about you. Ladies. You're not immune from this. But that line is thinner than we'd like to believe. Most people will never cross it, living their lives without ever feeling the sharp edge of true darkness. But under the right, or perhaps the wrong circumstances, even the most ordinary person can unravel. Just look at my Facebook feed. A moment of rage, desperation, or even fear can crack something deep inside. Something buried, unleashing a version of themselves they never thought possible. Not every killer is born a monster. Some are made shaped by pressure, by pain, by a perfect storm of events that turn any human into something unrecognizable. That's the whole point we've been trying to make here for 11 years. It's not about true crime. It's about human nature, what makes you tick. And once that line is crossed, there is no going back.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Well, I would like to say on May 7, 2019, I had no idea that when I called my brother that I would be inundated with phone calls from law enforcement from Clayton County, Georgia. I immediately panicked and feared the worst. I had no intention on answering those calls due to fear. I answered the phone by mistake. And within five minutes my wife called me and told me there was a deputy at the house to see me. My life from that point has never been the same. The following day I found myself repeating to my wife, I do not know how I'm going to tell my parents or explain to them how this happened.

[Host]

The voice you just heard belonged to a man named Keith Haring. He was speaking about an incident involving his older brother Kenneth. On the evening of May 7, 20, 19, 62 year old Kenneth Haring was driving on a busy highway in Clayton county near Hartsfield Jackson International Airport in Atlanta, an airport I know very, very well. At some point, he drove into an intersection that he shouldn't have.

[Guest/Interviewee]

This story begins with Kenneth Herring in his car driving along. And there's pretty much no doubt that he runs a red light near Forest Parkway and Riverdale Road when he runs that red light. And another tractor trailer. We're coming toward that intersection, and Mr. Herring hits the trailer and everybody pulls off to the side to deal with the fact that there's just been a traffic accident.

[Host]

Several other motorists saw the crash unfold, and some pulled over to help, including a Georgia correctional officer named Terry Robinson.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Did you witness a vehicle collision on May 7, 2019? Yes, ma'. Am. And where did that collision occur? Clark Howell and Forest Parkway. As we were approaching the light, the light was green. The vehicles were turning to the left, and the truck I know was turning right. All of a sudden, I seen this maroon vehicle come, bam, hit the side of the truck.

[Host]

Terry Robinson wasn't on duty at the time. He wasn't a traffic cop or highway patrolman either. But as a correctional officer, he took it upon himself to control the scene until the proper authorities could get there.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Now, what damages did you observe to the red maroon truck after the accident? The front end was heavily damaged. Radiator fluid, oil, water was leaking out, and everything was heavily damaged to the front. Because I was thinking that this vehicle could not go anywhere, I assumed that, hey, the vehicle was disabled.

[Host]

The pickup truck was wrecked, practically totaled. As for Kenneth Herring, he didn't appear to be injured, but he was somewhat dazed.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And I saw the gentleman kind of slumped over a little bit.

[Host]

That's what made me pull over to.

[Guest/Interviewee]

See if he was okay. And I. When I got a car, that's when I asked the gentleman, you okay? And then just basically making sure the gentleman's okay. That's when I called 91 1.

[Host]

Kenneth was responsive, but there clearly was something wrong with him and he was possibly drunk. After checking on Kenneth's well being, Terry Robinson called for help.

[Guest/Interviewee]

As it so happens, that just happened to be one of the worst traffic days in that area. 285 was shut down because a battery truck had caught on fire. So law enforcement is kind of blocking the entrance and exits for 285. And then there's another accident somewhere else in that area. So traffic is piled up, cars everywhere. No one can really get anywhere. And it's taking law enforcement a few moments to get to the scene.

[Host]

More than 20 minutes had passed since Terry called 911. No cops or emergency services had arrived. So Terry called again.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Clinton County 911. What is the location of your emergency? Clark Howell and Forest Parkway. We had a call earlier, and it's been over like 20 minutes now, and no ambulance have shown up at this location. And like I said, it Was a ball, a red Dakota and a semi tractor truck. And none has showed up at this moment in time. Okay, I do see the call. We already have someone on the way.

[Host]

The dispatcher assured Terry that help was on the way. Meanwhile, another witness to the crash also called 911.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Clayton County 911. What is the location of your emergency? Yes, ma'. Am. I'm actually on Forest Parkway and Clark Howell highway. And there was just an accident. I'm sure they've already called, but I was just. I just witnessed it, and I just wanted to make sure that. I guess called the police as well, in case they didn't. What were the kind of vehicles involved? It's a red Dodge pickup truck. I think it's a Dakota. And a semi was involved. And the red Dakota ran the red light and slammed into the side of the semi. Okay, and what's your name? My name is Hannah. S A N N a H. Last name is Payne. T A Y N E. Terri.

[Host]

And the other witness continued to wait. As they did, they noticed something strange. Kenneth Haring had climbed out of his truck and began aimlessly wandering around.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Mr. Herring appeared somewhat confused after the accident. Kept saying, who hit me? What's happening? Things along those lines. And then started saying things like, I didn't do anything wrong.

[Host]

Kenneth wandered in circles a few times. Then he got back behind the wheel of his truck and tried to restart the engine. He got back into the truck. When I called, he got back into.

[Guest/Interviewee]

The truck, and I said, well, sir, are you okay like that? And he said, I'm ready to go. Like I said, sir, you can't go anywhere. You know, can't go anywhere. And all of a sudden, he turned on the vehicle, and I'm like, well, sir, you can't do anything. You can't move. You can't move. And that's when he put it in. Put it in the drive and floored it.

[Host]

Kenneth sped off. Terry, while still on the phone with the 911 dispatcher, watched as the damaged pickup disappeared down the highway.

[Guest/Interviewee]

The reason why I'm asking that, because it's the driver who caused the accident. I think he's uncared. Something's going on with him. And so the thing about. We're trying to tell him turn his vehicle off into smoking. And he's not following the man. So that's why I'm asking to see. And he's moving this here. He's going to drive off, man. He's driving off. He's driving off. Take a picture I'm driving like, take a picture. Quick, quick, quick, quick, quick. He's driving off. He's driving off. Where's he going? He's heading for. He's heading for Riverdale Road. He has all the. Black gentleman, gray hair, blue shirt on, and front end damage heavily. Front end damaged in front of. Can't you believe. I knew there was something wrong with it, guy. I knew it.

[Host]

As Kenneth had fled the scene, the other witness, Hannah Payne, didn't hesitate. She jumped into her Jeep Wrangler and took off after him.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Okay, good. Go. Now the other driver who was in. And she's going to take a picture of the vehicle. Hopefully the lady. The lady in the Jeep was almost in the residence, so she turned around and she went after him. So she's going to take a picture of his vehicle and stuff.

[Host]

As Hannah pursued Kenneth, she stayed on the phone with the 911 dispatcher and relayed his movements.

[Guest/Interviewee]

911, what's the location of your emergency? Yes, ma', am. I'm on Clark Howell at Forest Parkway, Vienna section. I actually called about 20 minutes ago for an accident and no one has shown up yet. But I am under the impression that the guy that caused the accident who ran the red light is drunk and he's gotten back in his car and he's looking like he's trying to drive away. Okay, can you get his tag jumper? Hold on. He's driving away. It's a red dot. Dakota. Okay, so he is going west down far. No, I'm sorry, down for parkway. Okay, so you couldn't get a saying number? No, but I'm catching up to him right now.

[Host]

Hannah followed Kenneth and eventually caught up to him. What happened next left several other drivers stunned and horrified.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Now, did you see any sort of struggle between the driver of the car that she's standing at and Ms. Payne? Yes. Okay, describe what you saw. It just looked like a little pushing back and forth. What else happens next? I ended up pulling out my phone to record. Honestly, I hate to say it like this, but that was like another day in McLean County. And as I was recording, I heard a gunshot.

[Host]

On May 7, 2019, a gunshot echoed through the traffic on Riverdale Road in Clayton County, Georgia. Drivers hit their brakes, their heads whipping towards a sound. At first it seemed like just another case of road rage until they saw the blood. Someone was shot. Someone was dying. On the evening of May 7, 20, 19, 62 year old Kenneth Herring caused a traffic accident on a busy highway in Clayton County, Georgia. He ran a red light driving his pickup truck headfirst into the side of a tractor trailer. The semi driver was unharmed, but witnesses noticed something about Kenneth, something off. He seemed confused, maybe even drunk. Among those who stopped to help was an off duty correctional officer named Terry Robinson.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Was the vehicle operable at the time? It wasn't because it was off, but we see that happened that he was able to turn it on and leave the scene. He realized at some point Mr. Robinson did that Mr. Henry is kind of circling his vehicle. He doesn't know what's going on. He might get in his car and drive somewhere. I think he's going to leave the scene. And sure enough, Mr. Herring does get in his vehicle and begin driving.

[Host]

About 20 minutes after the accident, Kenneth did something unexpected. He climbed back into his truck and sped away. A short time later, and just a couple of miles down the road, a frantic driver flagged down a police sergeant. Yes, I was flagged down by a citizen that informed me there had been a vehicle accident and someone had been shot.

[Guest/Interviewee]

When you first arrived, can I describe what you initially seen?

[Host]

There's a large crowd of people, obviously, the two vehicles that appeared to have collided and there were other vehicles pulled over to the side to, I guess, assist with the situation. And multiple witnesses pointing to a red pickup truck saying that the man inside had been shot. The officer was directed to Kenneth's truck. Inside, Kenneth was unresponsive, slumped in the driver's seat, bleeding from a gunshot wound to his abdomen.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And what did you do?

[Host]

We're trying to identify where his gunshot.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Wound was and basically what was going on with him as long as trying.

[Host]

To get the driver's side door open.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And was paramedics or EMT or an ambulance requested? Yes, they were. And were there also civilians assisting you with Mr. Herring? Yes. Before the paramedics arrived? Yes. Did Mr. Herring ever say anything while you were there? No, ma'. Am.

[Host]

When paramedics arrived at the scene, they rushed Kenneth to the hospital, but it was too late. Kenneth Herring, a father, a husband, a brother, and a son was gone. His death was sudden, violent, and completely unexpected. His family was devastated.

[Guest/Interviewee]

I no longer have a big brother. He called me biscuit head all my life because from a little kid, every time my mom would get up every morning to make fresh biscuits, I would be there as the baby. I got the first one. And so as I got older, he would then just call me Biscuit. I won't get to hear that anymore. We won't get to laugh at him because he couldn't dance. But he Tried. No more Christmas, no more birthdays, no more family gatherings. His grandchildren know him. He has two adult children, but they don't have a father anymore.

[Host]

After Kenneth had died, an autopsy was performed to determine the cause and manner of his death.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And did you recover any projectiles from Mr. Heron's body? Yes. So the bullet traveled through the abdomen. It struck the small intestine, the large intestine, the colon, and the left kidney. Then it came to rest just beneath the skin of the left side of the back. It resulted in a massive loss of blood. And what was the cause of death in Mr. Herring's case? Gunshot wound of the abdomen. And what was the manner of death in Mr. Herring's case? Homicide.

[Host]

Kenneth Haring had been shot to death in his own truck on the side of a Clayton county highway. When police arrived, there was no mystery about who pulled the trigger. The shooter confessed right then and there.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Did you do anything to see if you could determine who had fired a shot? Yes.

[Host]

I asked who shot him, and that's when Ms. Payne stated, I did, and handed me her firearm, her license, and her Georgia concealed carry permit. The shooter was 21 year old, Hannah Payne. She had witnessed the initial traffic accident, and when Kenneth fled, she made the fateful decision to follow him. When she first witnessed the crash, Hannah was on her way home from her job as a property manager.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Typically, I'm in the field. I go from property to property, either collecting rent, sometimes walking vacant and or abandoned apartments that could potentially be under construction. And I would show vacant apartments to potential renters. And because you were going to all these different places to meet people you don't know, did you do anything for your safety? I did. And what was that? I registered for a concealed carry permit, and when I received it, I purchased a firearm.

[Host]

Several hours after she admitted to shooting Kenneth, Hannah sat down with Clayton county detectives. They wanted to hear her side of the story. According to Hannah, when she caught up to Kenneth, she got out of her Jeep and approached the truck. She told him he needed to return to the scene of the crash. That's when she claimed Kenneth grabbed her wrist and tried pulling her into the truck through the driver's side window.

[Guest/Interviewee]

We kind of started going back and forth, fighting, and that's when he punched the gas and he ran into my tire. I don't know if he was ripping. I wasn't watching him. I was trying to pull away from him, and he. I had dropped him off of me when he had my shirt.

[Host]

Hannah told detectives that Kenneth grabbed and ripped at her Shirt as she struggled to break free. As she fought back, Kenneth's truck lurched forward, crashing into her parked Jeep.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Grab, like right here on the back of my shirt. And then he grabbed and I. I don't. I honestly, I don't. I don't know. I don't remember telling myself to pull the chair.

[Host]

Hannah claimed she had no memory of actually pulling the trigger. As for the evidence, Hannah did have some minor bruising and scratches on her body, and her shirt was nearly torn in half, so there were signs of a struggle. But why would Kenneth attack her? Why would he try to drag her into his truck? Was he just a drunk and angry man that day, or was there something else to this story?

[Guest/Interviewee]

Now, when you make contact with the driver in the maroon truck, what were your observations of him physically? Physically? The scene that he was, again, out of it. Like I said, I noticed his eyes were a glassy effect. Again, not being a professional, a doctor or anything, just saying that. Was he going through a diabetic situation or whatever? I didn't smell any alcohol on him on that sore. Well, I just noted that the gentleman was. Was, you know, out of it. So you didn't smell any alcohol? No, I did not.

[Host]

A key witness to the initial traffic accident was an off duty correctional officer who happened to work at the jailhouse infirmary. When the officer observed Kenneth after the crash, he concluded fairly quickly that Kenneth wasn't drunk at all, but was suffering from some kind of medical emergency, like diabetic shock.

[Guest/Interviewee]

You notified Detective Moore that he was walking pretty normal, but he reminded you of a person like you would, like, from when I was working in the infirmary and stuff. These guys, you know, when you're a diabetic and you go into shock and your mindset, you know, that's what it reminded me of. He kept asking me what day it was and stuff like that, and I said, okay, sir. Yes. So based on your observation of Mr. Hearing on that day and your experience in working in the infirmary at the department of Correctional, did you believe Mr. Herring was having a. Suffering from a medical condition? Yes.

[Host]

Later on, investigators did confirm that Kenneth was a diabetic and that he relied on insulin.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And are you related to Kenneth Herring? Yes. And how were you related to Kenneth Herring? I'm his baby sister. In the time that you spent around Kenneth, were you ever aware of any medical conditions that Kenneth had? I knew. I know that he was a diabetic. Severely. Were you aware of any type of medications or anything that he had to do in order to manage his severe diabetes? He was insulin dependent.

[Host]

Although Kenneth's medical condition was clear, the autopsy couldn't confirm if he was suffering from diabetic shock at the time of his death.

[Guest/Interviewee]

When a person dies, the blood sugar continues to be metabolized very, very quickly. So even in a person whose blood sugar was normal at their time of death, that test would show low blood sugar. That's just the normal course of what we call post mortem change. So if his blood sugar was already low, there's no way for me to differentiate if he had a low blood sugar at the time of death versus the normal post mortem lowering of the blood sugar.

[Host]

While the autopsy couldn't verify diabetic shock, it could reveal if Kenneth was intoxicated on the day he died.

[Guest/Interviewee]

So the comprehensive blood screen at the Georgia Bureau of Investigation tests for all the major and common drugs of abuse, and there are hundreds of different additional drugs that the panel covers. And you say everything was negative? Yes. And what about the blood alcohol content? It was negative as well.

[Host]

The results were clear. Kenneth Herring was not high, he was not drunk, and it was likely that he'd been in a state of diabetic shock when he crashed. When Kenneth's wife was questioned, she gave a plausible explanation for why Kenneth fled the scene of the accident. He probably knew he needed medical attention and didn't have time to wait for an ambulance that never came.

[Guest/Interviewee]

I know he was having a diabetic episode because he don't just run off the scene. I knew he was trying to get to the hospital.

[Host]

With this new information, Hannah Payne's self defense story started to crumble. Diabetic shock doesn't cause aggression. It usually causes dizziness, confusion, and also weakness. Also, Hannah's version of events didn't match what multiple witnesses saw that day.

[Guest/Interviewee]

I was getting off work. As I was approaching Forest Parkway, I was making a left off Atlanta South Parkway. As I was making my left and getting into the far right lane, Miss Hannah was coming up Forest Parkway. She was coming from the end off of Highway 85, and she almost ran me off the road. She was speeding. She was going very fast.

[Host]

When Hannah chased after Kenneth, she didn't just follow him. She sped after him at a reckless pace, weaving in and out of traffic, nearly running other drivers off the road. When she caught up, she used a merging lane to block him. Kenneth was trapped. He had nowhere to go and blocked him from driving.

[Guest/Interviewee]

So he abruptly raped. And it caught my attention because it was, like, really aggressive. I thought it was just road rage at the time. And then A woman popped out of the car, and she said, get the f out the truck to him a bunch of times.

[Host]

Several witnesses saw what happened next. They watched as Hannah got out of her Jeep and aggressively approached Kenneth's window.

[Guest/Interviewee]

I saw her at the driver's side door of the vehicle yelling obscenities for the man to get out the car. It looks like she was trying to fight him through the window. And when you say she was trying to fight him through the window, what did you actually see? I just saw her hands moving, you know, get out of the car, motherfucker, doing all this. I never saw anyone's hands come out of the window, per se, but I did see her at the window. She got out of her Jeep, and she immediately went to the truck driver's side, yelling, and began swinging and hitting the man that was in the driver's side of the truck. What anything did you hear her say? I heard her sitting. Get the f out of the car. She just kept cussing. I don't get the f out the car. Now. Were you able to see Mr. Herring inside of his vehicle during this incident? Yes. And what did you observe of Mr. Herring? He looked confused. Were you able to see what the driver, what the man in the truck was doing? Yes. What could you see about him? He was sitting there. He didn't raise any hands or anything. He was just sitting there. That's what made. Got my attention the way. Because he wasn't reacting. So I thought that was kind of odd, just sitting there and allowing somebody to punch him like that. Could you see anything about the facial expressions or anything like that on the driver of the truck? He looked confused and shocked.

[Host]

According to multiple witnesses, Hannah Payne had recklessly chased down an older man. When she caught up to him, she blocked his truck and assaulted him.

[Guest/Interviewee]

She was punching the man in the truck repeatedly because his window was down. And she just kept punching him over and over and over. And the truck tried to go forward, and that there was impact.

[Host]

Witnesses saw Hannah yelling and striking Kenneth when his truck suddenly lurched forward, slamming into her Jeep. She must have been irate about that. The logical assumption is that Kenneth had put the truck in drive and hit the gas, desperate to escape the enraged stranger, shouting at him through his window.

[Guest/Interviewee]

She backed away. I could see the gun on her hip. And she pulled the gun out after punching him repeatedly and asked him to get out the car. She was pointing the gun at him, telling him to get out of the car, get out the car. And she pulled out a gun. And I remember There was a lot of traffic, so people. We couldn't really move, and people started honking to get the heck out the way. Well, what, if anything else, did you see? I pulled a gun. After she pulled the gun, she shot him. And she said, now you need an ambulance.

[Host]

After Kenneth's truck crashed into Hannah's Jeep, Hannah pulled out her gun and a single shot was fired. Soon after, one of the witnesses called 911.

[Guest/Interviewee]

It was emerging lane, and then she, like, got impatient and went around him for no reason because it was coming traffic. And then he almost hit her because he did that. So he breaks suddenly. But then she got mad and hopped out of her car. And then she pulled out her gun and started screaming at him, you know, like, what the heck? And then she didn't, like, how was your student? And she started hitting him. Okay, you said she pulled out a gun? Yes. Did she shoot the gun? Did she shot him? She shot him.

[Host]

Unfortunately for Hannah, a key piece of evidence backed up the witnesses accounts. The entire time she was chasing Kenneth, Hannah was on the phone with a 911 dispatcher. There was recorded proof of her actions.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Okay, so you couldn't get a tag number? No, but I'm texting up to him right now. Okay, ma', am, we actually do not want you to chase him. We just want you to be safe. I understand. I understand 100%. I'm just gonna get the tag number if nothing else. But I am going west down towards Parkway, and we almost up to him.

[Host]

Hannah had gotten close enough to read Kenneth's license plate number to the dispatcher. But when the dispatcher told her to turn around and go back to the scene of the accident, she refused.

[Guest/Interviewee]

If you can go back to that location where the incident happened, it's because someone is actually on the way to you guys now. Okay, well, there's a police officer there, but he is drunk. I'm not. I'm not. I'm sorry that I'm here to tell you I'm not, not going to follow him because he is going to cause another accident. So I won't stay behind him until an officer can get to us. Yeah, no, that's what I want. I want you guys to go back to the location where it happened, and an officer will be out there momentarily. Okay? Ma'. Am? Ma'. Am? Ma'. Am. Yes, ma'. Am. He just pulled the trigger of my gun in my hand while he was. While he was. Ma', am, you were not supposed to follow him. He hit my car. Okay, you got the Tag number. There's a police officer down the street. Tell them to come up here now. He pulled the trigger on my gun after he attacked me.

[Host]

He pulled the trigger of the gun in my hand. Okay, Karen. After Kenneth was shot, Hannah had the nerve to tell the dispatcher that Kenneth had shot himself with her gun. Imagine that. Moments later, she coldly told a bystander that she was fine but that Kenneth wasn't. Witnesses later described Hannah's demeanor after the shooting. They claimed that she was cold and actually seemed kind of proud of herself.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And what was her demeanor at that time? Calm, like, aloof, like she. I don't know. There wasn't a lot of emotion. Now, what was the defendant's demeanor immediately after the victim was shot? She had no remorse. She was just like, she was thugged out. She had no remorse at all. She was so right in that moment. She felt like she had done something. Now, after the victim was shot, what happened? Well, he just laid back in his seat. His eyes went white. He just laid back. She stood back. Somebody else waved down a police officer. He was already at exit. The officer came running up. He said, what happened? Who shot? And he put her handcuffs.

[Host]

Hannah insisted that Kenneth grabbed her gun and shot himself. But no one at the scene could confirm or deny that because nobody had a clear view of the weapon when it fired.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And do you know where the gun was? Based on your observation at that time, the gun was in her, if I'm not mistaken. Right hand. But it was inside the truck. So, of course, with the door panel, I couldn't see what was going on after she stuck it in there. But. But when the gun. When you hear the gunshot, if I'm not, I just want to make sure I understand. The hand or the arm with the gun was inside the truck? Yes, ma'. Am.

[Host]

Despite her claims of self defense. And it's a woman, so they're always going to be claiming self defense. Hannah was ultimately arrested and charged with multiple crimes, including malice and felony murder.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Formally charged. A grand jury indicting the woman accused of following a man involved in a hit and run, then killing him during a confrontation. Clayton County's district attorney says Hannah Payne was trying to act like the police when she fatally shot 62 year old Kenneth Herring last month. A witness telling police he appeared to be suffering a medical emergency like diabetic shock. Payne indicted on malice and felony murder. She's claiming self defense.

[Host]

The COVID 19 pandemic. I know, I'm sick of talking about it, too. I am. But it caused a Massive court backlog across the entire country. And Clayton county was no exception. It took prosecution four years to bring Hannah Payne to trial. In the meantime, she remained out of jail on a $100,000 bond, surrounded by family and friends who supported her.

[Guest/Interviewee]

You know, you obviously got an outcome that you were looking for. $100,000 bond. Your reaction? I'm speechless. I'm just so glad, you know, that it went that way. I mean, we're sorry for what happened and everything, regards to Mr. Heron's family and everything, but Hannah is not the person that they are saying she is. Not at all. She's the sweetest, most caring. What do you say?

[Host]

You just mentioned about the family, Mr. Herring's family.

[Guest/Interviewee]

What do you want to say to them? I just wanted to say that this was an unfortunate, fortunate situation that, you know, turned out the way it did, but not at the hands of my daughter.

[Host]

What do you mean not at the.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Hands of your daughter? Just, it was not her fault.

[Host]

Of course not. How could it possibly be your precious baby angel's fault? Naturally, Kenneth Haring's family saw things a bit differently. After waiting years for justice, their frustration boiled over. And Kenneth's brother wrote a letter to the naacp. Within that letter, he wrote, my brother, Kenneth Haring was murdered in cold blood by Hannah Payne. This murderer is out on bond and has not been brought to justice. Eventually, the trial did begin. Hannah Payne faced eight felony charges, including malice murder, which could have put her in prison for life. At trial. And in a surprising move, Hannah took the witness stand. Staring directly at the jury, she told them her reasoning for why Kenneth Haring had to die. She said there was no choice. She had to save her own life. In December of 2023, after four years of delays, Hannah Payne's murder trial finally began. She faced eight felony charges, including malice murder, felony murder, false imprisonment, aggravated assault, and possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony. That last one seems a bit redundant, doesn't it? If convicted, the now 25 year old woman could spend the rest of her life in prison without the possibility of parole.

[Guest/Interviewee]

In 2019, Clayton County Police say Payne shot and killed 62 year old Kenneth Herring. Payne is accused of following Haring after he left the scene of a crash where he reportedly hit a semi truck. Herring was experiencing a medical emergency which appeared to be diabetic shock. She allegedly confronted him and attempted to make a citizen's arrest. She's facing a number of charges, including malice and felony murder.

[Host]

Like any murder trial, the proceedings began with jury instructions followed by the Prosecution's opening statement.

[Guest/Interviewee]

On May 7th of 2019, defendant Hannah Renee Payne had the audacity to chase corner, detain, assault, assault, shoot and kill an unarmed 62 year old Kenneth Herring, who was sitting in his own car, all because she didn't like his driving.

[Host]

From the start, prosecutors hammered home a key point. Hannah Payne had no business involving herself in the crash between Kenneth Haring and the semi truck driver. In fact, Hannah Payne had no business involving herself in many things. And neither do you ladies. What, you're an expert in geopolitics now just because you have a Facebook profile? Go fuck yourself. Anyway, the accident had nothing to do with her. She had no right to intervene.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And the defendant, even though it had the first accident, really didn't have very little to do with her, has the audacity to get in her vehicle and chase him. The defendant is narrating what she's doing to the 911 operator, who of course, of course tells the defendant, ma', am, don't chase him. That's not safe. Don't follow him. We don't need you to do that. But this defendant, as far as she was concerned, was the rightest person she knew. Cause she tells that 911 operator, well, I'm not, not gonna follow him. So she could have backed off and just let it be. Nope, not good enough. And you will hear the defendant screaming, get out of the car. Get out of the car. And witnesses will tell you that she jumps out and is going straight to his driver'. But it turns out Mr. Hearing's window is part of the way down and that this defendant is reaching in to where Mr. Hearing is sitting in the car in the truck. The defendant reaching in and assaulting Mr. Hearing. And while he's trying to deal with the defendant at his door, his car moves forward. And what happens is that he bumps into her Jeep. And once that happens, you'll hear an escalation in what she's saying. Get the fuck out of the car. Get the fuck out of the car. I will shoot you. I will shoot you.

[Host]

The prosecutors also wasted no time dismantling Hannah's version of events, implying that her explanation of what happened was absurd.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And after she shoots him, she picks up the phone with the 1911 operator going, Ma', am, you are not supposed to follow him. She's gonna tell you the very first thing she says. He hit my car. That's what she says. You will hear her tell you in her own words why she killed this man. Then she tells the 911 operator. He pulled the trigger on my gun and shot himself. That's the level of audacity you're gonna hear trying to claim this man would shoot himself.

[Host]

The defense, on the other hand, stood by Hannah's story. They insisted that Kenneth Haring had been the aggressor and that Hannah had no choice but to protect herself.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And upon grabbing her, is pulling her into the car. And you will see pictures and you will hear testimony, and you will see scratches all over her neck, scratches on the back of her head, all these bruises on her face. These are evidence that are going to come in these pictures we're taking right after the incident. And you're going to see her shirt just ripped completely wide open.

[Host]

To bolster their argument, the defense pointed out that Kenneth Handyman had various tools in his truck, items that, in theory, could have been used as weapons against Hannah. Yet that never happened.

[Guest/Interviewee]

They're going to show you pictures of a knife, work tools that can be used aggressively to cause substantial, serious, immediate harm.

[Host]

The trial lasted five days. Witnesses, police officers, and forensic experts took the stand, laying out what they saw, heard and uncovered. Much of the testimony supported the prosecution's case, painting Hannah as the aggressor. There was evidence of a struggle, but nothing to suggest that Kenneth Haring had attacked Hannah when she confronted him at his truck. Then Hannah took the stand.

[Guest/Interviewee]

I was on my way home from work, and I was coming up to an intersection where the light had just turned green. As I was getting ready to turn left, there was a semi that was turning right. Someone ran the red light, and I watched him run right into the tractor trailer. I pulled off to the side and I got on the phone with 911.

[Host]

Hannah began telling her side of the story, describing the traffic accidents she witnessed and everything that unfolded after that.

[Guest/Interviewee]

After that, we were kind of just standing there waiting for the police to arrive. And the other gentleman who had witnessed it walked over to us, and he introduced himself and said that he was a state officer. And he flashed his badge and said that he had checked on the other gentleman and that was asking us, are we okay? Is everybody all right?

[Host]

One of the key witnesses to the accident was an off duty correctional officer named Terry Robinson. During her testimony, Hannah claimed that she'd been following the instructions of a man she assumed was a, quote, state officer.

[Guest/Interviewee]

What I thought that we had learned was that the driver who had caused the original accident was potentially drunk. I noticed that's when he completely gets in his truck. He starts trying to turn it on, and you can hear him, like, revving it to get it to turn on. And that's when he. He started to drive away. So I'm explaining to the dispatch what happened. And as he's pulling off, she's asking me, you know, was I able to get the tag number? Realizing I wasn't able to. I was already at my vehicle, and I got in my. I completely got in my vehicle and went to go pull off. And at that time, the truck driver and the state officer was still standing over in the street, and he started waving me over, like, calling me towards him. And when you got up close to him, what happened? He. I asked him, did he go straight? And he said, yes. And he's telling me. He said, go. So at that time, you were under the impression that he's a state officer sending you to get the tag, and 911 knows that you're on the way to get the tag. Correct.

[Host]

After Kenneth had fled the scene, Terry Robinson instructed Hannah to follow Kenneth. And this fact was not disputed.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And that was you in there saying, go, go, go, correct? Yes. Okay. That was directed clearly to Ms. Payne, correct? Yes. And you didn't see her after that because she's going to get a picture of the tag, correct? Yes. You never said anything about, please don't pursue, or you never said anything like, hey, be safe. Don't do this. I said, get the picture of the tag, and you said, go, go, go. Good. Go. She's going to get a picture of the tag.

[Host]

While Terry may have been in the wrong to encourage Hannah to pursue Kenneth, one thing was certain. He never told her to run him off the road and shoot him. Not to mention the fact that just because you're female doesn't mean you don't have autonomy and can't make your own decisions. You know, why you always acting like victims? Hannah's decision to chase him was her own, despite what anybody else told her. Nonetheless, Hannah's testimony continued.

[Guest/Interviewee]

All right, so then now you're. You're going in the direction they pointed you, and you're on the phone with 911. Was 911 saying anything? I was just. There was kind of silence from the time that she had initially asked me if I had got the tag. I was still kind of getting my bearings, and I just started repeating to her, telling her, okay, you know, he's going down Clark Howell on Forest Parkway. So you never heard them give a warning of not to chase or. No.

[Host]

This was a damning moment at trial and frankly, a boneheaded move by the Defense. When prompted by her own attorney, Anna claims she hadn't heard the 911 dispatcher tell her not to chase Kenneth. But the recorded call told a different story.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Okay, so you couldn't get a tag number? No, but I'm texting up to him right now. Okay, ma', am, we actually do not want you to chase him. We just want you to be safe. I understand. I understand 100%. I'm just gonna give the tag number.

[Host]

If nothing else, the dispatcher's words were crystal clear. Do not chase. Hannah had even responded, saying that she 100% understood before outright refusing to obey. Y' all ever heard of that word? Obey might be a new one for you.

[Guest/Interviewee]

I'm not. I'm sorry, but I'm here to tell you I'm not Not gonna follow him because he is going to cause another accident. So I won't stay behind him until an officer can get to us.

[Host]

Hannah's testimony continued. She went on to explain her actions when she confronted Kenneth.

[Guest/Interviewee]

At that point is when we had both come up to the intersection, and I saw him stopped in the turning lane, so I turned as well. And when I stopped, I was under the impression with me having 911 on the phone that I could just be kind of like a messenger. So I took my phone on speaker and I took it to him to show him that I had the police on the phone, and I'm telling him they want us to go back to the original accident site.

[Host]

Hannah tried to present herself as a good Samaritan, but the 911 recording contradicted this. She had been aggressive, barking orders at an older man who was likely in the midst of a medical emergency. Granted, she didn't know Kenneth's condition and assumed he was drunk. But even so, there was no justification for her to chase him down and confront.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Get out the car. Get out the car, ma'. Am. But as I got closer, I heard him asking me, who the f are you? And I told him that I was nobody, but that I had the police on the phone and that they wanted us to go back to the original accident site. Apparently, I was close enough for him to reach out the car, and he knocked my phone out of my hand, and he grabbed me by my wrist and he pulled me into the vehicle.

[Host]

Hannah claimed Kenneth attacked her and tried to pull her into his truck. If that was true, a point the prosecution strongly doubted, Hannah was clearly the one who escalated the situation legally. Whatever action Kenneth took at that point didn't matter.

[Guest/Interviewee]

The indication is as from all of the witnesses were asked. Her demeanor. Aggressive. Aggressive. Very aggressive. Once she is noted as the initial aggressor. As the aggressor on scene, nothing that Mr. Herring done did is relevant.

[Host]

Despite the prosecution's argument, Hannah stuck to her story. She insisted that she'd been trying to protect herself.

[Guest/Interviewee]

He was pulling my wrist, and he pulled me in the vehicle. And he kept yelling at me, telling me, I have something for you, bitch. And he's leaning and he's reaching and he's pulling. And at this point, I remember that. Take your time. I remember that he had let go of my wrist, and he grabbed me by the back of my neck, and it was as if he was trying to kind of keep a hold of me. I'm telling him to let me go, and that's when he hits the gas and we go forward. I'm still in the car at this point. While it only may have been a few steps or a few feet. When you are being held against your will and you have no idea what's ahead of you and you're looking down, it felt like it lasted forever.

[Host]

Here we go with the tears, of course. Hannah goes on to tell the jury that after Kenneth's truck lurched forward and crashed into her precious Jeep, Kenneth attempted to take Hannah's gun. And now suddenly, she's being held against her will. The irony. What the fuck was she doing there anyway? This eternal victimhood, it's fucking exhausting.

[Guest/Interviewee]

He grabbed my hand with the gun in it. He's pulling at it. He's pulling at it. And I'm just yelling at him to stop as he's turning it towards, like, that way I'm being pulled and pulled, and I can feel myself, like, pressing up against the car. Like, my face is up against the door. And as he's pulling, it is when it. The gun went off. Okay, having gone through that situation and here are in court, is there anything you've learned from this situation or that sticks in your mind that not everybody is gonna have a reaction that you think they're gonna have, and that clearly trying to do the right thing is not the right answer?

[Host]

Jesus freaking. Did the concept of minding your own business ever cross your mind, Hannah? I mean, why would it? Hannah claimed that she had been simply trying to do the right thing. But in the end, it was Kenneth who was to blame for what happened. For Kenneth's family who were sitting in the courtroom, listening to Hannah's words was unbearable.

[Guest/Interviewee]

How is that. I mean, for them to bring forth that type of defense. What did you think about that? I think it's selfish to blame the victim. And I thought it was heartless when all accounts said the aggressor. And then to blame a victim of the person that you caused it, then the. It must have been tough to sit through that. It was. Very tough.

[Host]

Next up, the prosecution cross examined Hannah, which was a bit of a disaster for the defense.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And you also testified today that you never heard the 911 dispatch give you a warning, Dr. Chase. No, I never said that. I said that. She told me that she wanted me to. To be safe. And I said that from what I took it as was that she didn't want me to chase. And when I explained to her I wasn't chasing, I was just simply staying with him until a police officer could get to us. And the 911 dispatch indicated to you approximately four times to either not chase Mr. Herring and go back to the scene, Correct? Incorrect. I only heard it one time, and she told me not to chase, to be safe. She never told me to go back to the scene until after I had told her that I was behind him and that she wanted me to be safe. And in doing so, she said that she wanted both of us to go back.

[Host]

Hannah's explanation of the 911 call was a word salad mess, rambling, contradictory, and unlikely to convince the jury of anything other than she was an idiot. You only heard her tell you to stop chasing once, but then she told you again to stop chasing and go back to the scene after you told her that you were behind him. What? What? What are you even saying, lady? Oh, that's right. It's never my fault. I see. Makes sense.

[Guest/Interviewee]

And the dispatcher tells you, okay, ma', am, we actually do not want you to chase him. We just want you to be safe. The first time they tell you not to chase him, Correct? She didn't tell me not to. She just said that they didn't want me to because of my safety. At least is the way that I interpreted. Okay, I'll give you that. So they told you that they do not want you to chase him, Correct? Correct. And the dispatcher tells you after that it's not safe to chase him second time. Correct. That's what the transcripts guys said when we're listening to it. I don't remember hearing that, but. And once she gets the tag number from you, she tells you. Okay, so if you could go back to that location where the incident happened, because someone is actually on the way to you guys now, is that correct? Correct. That's the third time she's telling you to not continue to follow Mr. Hearing and go back to the location. And the dispatcher tells you after that, you know, that's what I want. I want you guys to go back to the location where it happened, and an officer would be out there momentarily. So that's a fourth time. She's telling you again.

[Host]

After going over the 911 call, prosecutor then turned to what happened after Hannah blocked Kenneth's truck.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Now, you testified that you walked up to him. Does it sound like you described it calmly, telling him that the 911 dispatch wanted him to go back to the scene? Correct. And telling him calmly that you were on the phone with 911. I mean, when you say calmly, do you mean, like, was I irate or was I. Was I louder? That's just your testimony today that you did not get out of your vehicle and run up to Mr. Hearing's vehicle telling him to get out of the car. Correct. And you never once got out of your vehicle and go up to him and tell him to get out of the car? Well, everyone heard. I did. And so at no point on that 911 tape did you ever tell him to stop, go back to the scene? I did. And did you hear that on the 911? Conveniently, no.

[Host]

The prosecutor's argument was simple. Hannah had no legal right to chase Kenneth. She had no reason to confront him at all. And the only reason a man was dead was because of the choices she made on that day.

[Guest/Interviewee]

So in the initial incident, your vehicle was not struck, correct? Correct. And so there was no reason for you to interject yourself in the final conclusion of what happened with Mr. Herring. As far as that incident was concerned, there was a lot that led up to that. So for me to have introducted myself to begin with was me doing something that I would have wanted someone else to do for me, which was to be a witness for what I thought was an accident. You talked about the fact that it could have been avoided had you not attempted to, I guess, assist or help. But this actually could have been avoided if you not had introduced a gun into this incident. Correct. I introduced the gun to try and save my life. Nothing further.

[Host]

Your Honor, Hannah's decision to testify didn't do her any favors, but given how much evidence was stacked against her, she really didn't have much of a choice. Maybe a white girl crying on the stand would sway a dumb juror or two. Finally, after days of testimony, the trial drew to a close. And Both sides delivered their closing arguments.

[Guest/Interviewee]

The defendant had multiple opportunities to do something else, to go back to the incident location, to go back home, not pursue. This had nothing to do with her. You can't poke a bear and then when the bear turns around and attack, you want to claim self defense. It doesn't work that way. And you know how much entitlement you have to have to chase somebody down, detain them, jump out your car and run toward a stranger. He didn't know her. He didn't know why she was approaching his car and demand that they do anything. He didn't have to listen to her. He didn't have to do anything she said. And the audacity to come here and take that stand and blame everybody else.

[Host]

The prosecution argued the obvious. Hannah should have minded her own business. The world would be a much better place if more of y' all out there. Yeah, you the ones listening right now, minded your own fucking business. The defense countered, claiming that Hannah was young, naive, and simply trying to do the right thing. But how many times have we heard that before?

[Guest/Interviewee]

Not understanding what could happen? Because she's never been in there. She's 21 years old, never been in a situation like that. In her mind, she's a young individual trying to help out. This is not some killer, this is not some murder. This is a young girl that got caught up in the wrong situation with a good heart and good intention.

[Host]

The jury had two versions of Hannah Payne to consider. The defense portrayed her as a well intentioned but naive young woman. The prosecution painted her as an entitled and smug Karen who took the law into her own hands and ended up killing an innocent man. In the end, it was the jury's job to decide which version of Hannah was the truth. And it only took him about two hours to make that decision. More breaking news, this time out of Clayton county, where we just heard hours ago a jury return a verdict in the murder trial of Hannah Payne.

[Guest/Interviewee]

The panel deliberated for a little more than two hours unanimously finding her guilty on all eight counts.

[Host]

Say it with me. Guilty on all counts. For Kenneth Haring's family, justice had finally been served.

[Guest/Interviewee]

When I heard the first verdict, I know we wasn't supposed to show sign, but tears started rolling down my face because at that moment I felt a relief that came over. And from the 1st to the 2nd to all the way to the 8th, all I could say was thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Host]

While this trial remained focused on the evidence, the court of public opinion, of course, was much messier because Hannah was a white woman who shot a black man. Many on social media, you know, the shit stain that it is, were quick to label her actions as racially motivated. The prosecutors rejected this theory outright because the evidence just didn't support it. Besides, Hannah had previously dated a black man. Her current boyfriend was Dominican, and her best friend since childhood was a black woman. By all accounts, Hannah had a diverse circle of friends. In fact, she must have felt bulletproof anyway for the state. Racism and hatred were never a factor in this case. That's just social media horseshit by other Karens with nothing better to do.

[Guest/Interviewee]

I think people are under the misconception that it was race. We never, ever bought race into this matter. As I told y' all when she was convicted the other night, that was too simple to say that it was black and white. White. You know, we sat in our office for four years. We were having these. These discussions and trying to figure out why. Only Hannah Payne knows why she did it. But the fact that we. The certain things that we knew that she knew she had an African American boyfriend, you know, so that automatically throws out, you know, hate out there, you know, race. We will never know. We will never know because she never really told us to. Truth on the stand, that story kept changing.

[Host]

The district attorney put it bluntly. Only Hannah Payne knew why she did what she did. But one could argue that maybe even she didn't fully understand. The people closest to her certainly struggled to make sense of what happened. Her friends and family were stunned when they learned about it. Those who knew Hannah swore she was one of the kindest people they'd ever met. At Hannah's sentencing hearing, several of them spoke on her behalf.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Payne was in tears at times as her loved ones talked about the person they knew her to be. I have witnessed her servant's heart more times than I could be permitted to talk about today. Over the course of time, I have consistently witnessed Hannah opening doors for others, always expressed thank yous without hesitation to step in and offer assistance whenever and wherever needed. If you've ever had a moment where you need to lift a heavy item into your car and a stranger walked up without being asked and offered to help you, this could have been Hannah. If you've ever seen a person ask for money on the street and a person give it freely because they can care, that may also have been Hannah. If you have ever seen a stray animal walking too close along a roadway and a total stranger stopped to render help, that also was likely Hannah. And not once, not ever, have I ever Witnessed her be the slightest unkind.

[Host]

The murder of Kenneth Herring wasn't the work of a cold blooded killer, but rather several moments where someone's worst instincts took over. Hannah Payne allowed her inner monster to win. And because of that, a father, a husband, a brother and a son lost his life. But what made things even worse was what came next. Rather than take responsibility, Hannah took took her case to trial, trying to convince the jury that her murder victim attacked her and that he had shot himself. Her lack of remorse spoke volumes. One of the nicest people you've ever met, you say, huh? That's interesting. She continued to allow the monster to win, adding to the suffering she had already caused. At sentencing, Kenneth's family understandably pleaded for the maximum punishment.

[Guest/Interviewee]

The prosecution and defense both presented witnesses, among them Herring's relatives. I'll never see my brother again. Only through pictures. The same sentence that she gave him. I would like to see the same sentence given to her.

[Host]

Kenneth's family and the prosecution pushed for life without parole, while the defense pleaded for life with the possibility of parole. Ultimately, the judge chose the latter, but also ordered that some of Hannah's additional charges would run consecutively to her life sentence.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Ms. Payne is going away for life with the possibility of parole. For those of you who not understand what life with the possibility of parole means, it means in 30 years, that will be the first time that she will be able to come up for parole. But she's got an additional 13 years. She's a 25 year old woman. I'm not good with math, but 30 plus 13 would put her somewhere around 78 years old before she could possibly get out of jail.

[Host]

Hannah Payne was not a career criminal. She wasn't a hardened killer. By all accounts, she was a decent and ordinary young woman living an ordinary life. Until the day she wasn't. Until the day she got so gassed up that she thought she was Batman. That day, a mix of arrogance, self righteousness and adrenaline pushed her past the point of no return. Women don't seem to do well with adrenaline. Men live with it. Born in darkness, molded by it. In Hannah's immature mind, she was a hero, an enforcer of justice. A caped crusader in a jeep wrangler. Do you hear how dumb that sounds? But justice was never hers to deliver. And in chasing a moment of control, which is all it was, she destroyed countless lives, including her own. She lost everything. One pull of a trigger was all it took for an ordinary woman to become a murderer. The line between man and monster isn't as thick as we'd like to think. It's fucking scary. It can happen in an instant to you, to me, or anyone else, for that matter, when we're least expecting it. Sometimes all it takes to cross over that line is the wrong belief that you're on the right side. All right, ladies, I think I've beaten you up enough today. He's so abusive. So why don't you mind your own business and head on over to swordscale.com and until next week, stay safe.

[Guest/Interviewee]

Sam Sa.