Sword and Scale – Episode 316

Release Date: September 6, 2025
Main Theme:
This episode explores the tragic case of Kenneth Herring, a 62-year-old man killed after a traffic accident in Clayton County, Georgia, by a 21-year-old woman, Hannah Payne. Through raw 911 calls, witness accounts, trial coverage, and unfiltered narration, the podcast investigates how an ordinary person can cross the fine line into monstrous behavior—and how justice unfolded.

Episode Overview

The episode dissects the shocking sequence of events on May 7, 2019, when an accident, the actions of bystanders, and one woman's decision to “get involved” spiraled into homicide. Sword and Scale uses chilling first-person accounts, court audio, and commentary to grapple not only with the facts of the case but the unsettling realities of human nature, self-righteousness, and the catastrophic costs of crossing boundaries that should never be crossed.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Crossing the Line from Ordinary to Monster

• Host’s Theme Statement (03:51):
  “There is a line between a man and a monster… Most people will never cross it… But under the right… or wrong circumstances, even the most ordinary person can unravel.”
• Reflection on how the podcast seeks to expose the triggers that turn “normal” people into perpetrators of violence.

2. The Traffic Accident (04:19–10:45)

• The Crash:
  Kenneth Herring, appearing dazed, runs a red light and collides with a tractor trailer.
• First Observations:
  Off-duty correctional officer Terry Robinson and witness Hannah Payne both call 911.
  • Robinson: “I seen this maroon vehicle come, bam, hit the side of the truck.” (04:58)
• Kenneth’s Odd Behavior:
  He seems confused, possibly drunk, but according to Robinson, may be medically compromised—later speculated to be diabetic shock.
• 911 Response Delay:
  Due to heavy traffic and other incidents, police and paramedics do not arrive for over 20 minutes.

3. The Pursuit (10:45–12:47)

• Kenneth Leaves Scene:
  Against advice, Kenneth flees the crash site; Payne follows in her Jeep after confirming with the 911 dispatcher she’s “catching up to him right now.”
• Dispatcher Warns Payne:
  911 operator instructs: “We actually do not want you to chase him. We just want you to be safe.” (30:32)
  • Payne replies: “I understand 100%. I’m just gonna get the tag number if nothing else...” but refuses to stop following.

4. The Fatal Confrontation (12:22–16:23)

• Showdown and Shooting:
  Payne blocks Herring’s truck and aggressively confronts him.
  • Witness: “She said, get the f out the truck to him a bunch of times.” (26:14)
  • Another witness: “She was punching the man in the truck repeatedly...and then she pulled the gun out after punching him repeatedly.” (28:22)
• The Gunshot:
  Payne’s gun fires, fatally wounding Herring.
  • Payne tells 911: “He pulled the trigger of my gun in my hand…” (Trying to claim Herring shot himself.) (32:38)
• Witnesses Describe Her Demeanor:
  One bystander: “She was calm, like, aloof… She was so right in that moment. She felt like she had done something.” (33:17)

5. Aftermath and Investigation (16:23–25:10)

• Autopsy:
  Shows Herring died of a gunshot wound. No drugs or alcohol detected; later confirmed he was an insulin-dependent diabetic—likely suffering a medical emergency.
  • “Diabetic shock doesn’t cause aggression. It usually causes dizziness, confusion, and also weakness.” (25:10)
• Reconstruction of Payne’s Actions:
  Multiple witnesses contradict Payne's narrative of self-defense, describing her as the overwhelming aggressor.

6. Trial Coverage: The Case Against Payne (34:55–63:48)

• Grand Jury and Charges:
  Payne is indicted on eight felony counts, including malice and felony murder. Trial is delayed years by COVID-19 court backlog.
• Prosecutor’s Opening:
  “Defendant Hannah Renee Payne had the audacity to chase, corner, detain, assault, and shoot and kill an unarmed 62 year old… all because she didn’t like his driving.” (39:04)
• 911 Audio as Damning Evidence:
  Payne’s statements during the call contradict her courtroom testimony.
• Prosecution’s Main Points:
  • Payne was told repeatedly not to pursue.
  • She escalated the situation, had no legal standing, and could have left.
  • “You can’t poke a bear and then when the bear turns around and attack, you want to claim self-defense. It doesn’t work that way.” (61:05)
• Defense’s Argument:
  • Maintains Payne was attacked, presents evidence of bruises and torn clothing.
  • Portrays her as naive, not malicious: “a young girl that got caught up in the wrong situation with a good heart and good intention.” (62:38)
• Payne Testifies:
  • Claims she was following instructions from an off-duty officer and 911.
  • Insists she only intended to get a license plate for police; felt threatened by Herring.
  • Many statements disproved by recorded 911 calls and eyewitnesses.
• Prosecution’s Cross-Examination:
  • Systematic breakdown of inconsistencies, highlighting Payne’s refusal to mind her own business.
  • Payne claims: “Trying to do the right thing is not the right answer.” (54:43)

7. The Verdict and Sentencing (63:48–69:24)

• Guilty on All Counts:
  Jury returns a unanimous verdict after only two hours.
  • Family’s reaction: “All I could say was thank you, thank you, thank you.” (64:00)
• Sentencing:
  Payne receives life in prison with the possibility of parole, plus an additional 13 years to be served consecutively. Realistically, she won’t be eligible for parole until age 78.
  • “Ms. Payne is going away for life with the possibility of parole... that will be the first time that she will be able to come up for parole.” (69:24)
• Family Pleads for Maximum:
  “The same sentence that she gave him, I would like to see the same sentence given to her.” (68:45)
• Host's Reflection:
  “The murder of Kenneth Herring wasn’t the work of a cold blooded killer, but rather several moments where someone’s worst instincts took over... In chasing a moment of control... she destroyed countless lives, including her own.” (67:44–69:50)

8. Broader Themes: Racism, Public Opinion, and Human Nature (64:24–66:32)

• No Racial Motivation Found:
  Although the case drew national attention and allegations of racial bias, prosecutors and Herring’s family insisted it was about Payne’s actions and lack of accountability, not race.
  • “Only Hannah Payne knows why she did it. But the fact that...she had an African American boyfriend... throws out, you know, hate out there, you know, race.” (65:19)
• Host’s Closing Thoughts:
  Reiterates the show’s central message: the line between the average person and a killer is disturbingly thin; self-righteousness and adrenaline can have devastating, irreversible results.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Host on the core philosophy *(03:51):
  “Not every killer is born a monster. Some are made, shaped by pressure, by pain, by a perfect storm of events that turn any human into something unrecognizable.”
• Host mockingly critiques Payne's self-victimization *(53:21):
  “Here we go with the tears, of course... This eternal victimhood, it’s fucking exhausting.”
• Prosecutor’s scathing point *(61:05):
  “You can’t poke a bear, and then when the bear turns around and attack, you want to claim self defense. It doesn’t work that way.”
• Payne’s mother to media *(36:18):
  “This was an unfortunate situation... but not at the hands of my daughter.”
• Kenneth’s brother on grief *(16:23):
  “No more Christmas, no more birthdays, no more family gatherings... His grandchildren know him... but they don’t have a father anymore.”
• Host’s sobering conclusion *(69:50):
  “One pull of a trigger was all it took for an ordinary woman to become a murderer. The line between man and monster isn’t as thick as we’d like to think.”
• On the “Karen” phenomenon *(63:04):
  “The prosecution painted her as an entitled and smug Karen who took the law into her own hands and ended up killing an innocent man.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Setting up the “thin line” theme: 00:35–03:51
• Accident & initial 911 calls: 04:19–10:45
• Payne’s pursuit & dispatcher warnings: 10:45–12:47, 30:32–31:12
• Witnesses describe the shooting: 26:14, 28:22, 29:32
• Autopsy & medical findings: 17:26–24:38
• Discrediting self-defense claim: 25:10–28:58
• 911 call audio evidence: 30:32–32:38
• Family & community reactions: 64:00, 68:45
• Host’s commentary on the meaning of the case: 67:44–69:50

Overall Tone and Style

The podcast blends gritty, unfiltered details with dark humor, cynicism, and biting social commentary. The host is blunt, often sarcastic, and unapologetically confrontational—particularly in criticizing self-righteousness, performative “heroism,” and gender stereotypes. The episode is honest, unsettling, and spares no one: not Payne, the witnesses, or the broader public.

Summary for the Uninitiated

If you haven’t listened, Episode 316 of Sword and Scale is an unflinching look at a modern tragedy born of ordinary arrogance: a young woman’s urge to “be a hero,” a misunderstood emergency, authoritative overreach, and the consequence of refusing to stand down. Through harrowing calls, relentless cross-examination, and the raw reactions of witnesses and families, the episode provides an unsparing portrait of personal downfall, legal reckoning, and the universal lesson that the monster is often made, not born—sometimes by simply refusing to mind your own business.