B (8:58)

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A (10:22)

Today we're featuring the very first of our guests from Commercial Space Week in Orlando, Florida. William Cook is the Senior Vice President of Space Operations at Psyonic Navigation.

C (10:35)

I'm the vice president of Psionic Navigation, which I'll go into a little detail about what we do. Steve Sanford, he was the director of engineering at NASA and he and his team saw a need for advanced navigation. There's a gap in the technology. So with Artemis and going to the moon, lunar surfaces, Mars, planetary, they spent over $40 million of research while he was still there. So he and several people at the company that are there now were the inventors and the developers. So when the time came, he acquired the license and the patents for all that. And so we have the rights to commercialize this technology. So it's called Coherent lidar.

A (11:29)

Coherent lidar.

C (11:30)

Coherent lidar. And it's a LIDAR system that performs navigation for landing. Rpo, situational awareness. And it's based on the principles and uses the principles of Doppler. Okay, so can I ask you, before.

A (11:48)

You go into detail, just if you could explain maybe a bit. I think most of us are familiar with what LIDAR is, but Coherent is a very interesting descriptor. So what does that mean?

C (11:57)

So think of FM radio and AM radio and do people listen to AM radio anymore? I mean, but again, anyway, there's AM radio amplitude modulation and frequency modulation. Think of. So there are other LIDAR systems out there. Coherent LiDAR in the LiDAR system that we have developed is. It's very complex, but it's very precise and accurate. So imagine if you're in Cislunar or on the moon, there's no GPS there and there's probably not going to be there for a while. Right? But here on anything that moves, GPS can be jammed. This cannot be jammed. So a coherent LIDAR sends an exact frequency out and that frequency it will see only the frequency that it sends out. So it can't be jammed, it can't be spoofed. The system can look directly into the sun and will not get confused by the solar radiance or anything like that. So that becomes a very important feature for some of our clients who are situational awareness, where if they're trying to see if some other spacecraft is approaching them, naturally you want to approach with the sun behind you, because any system's going to look, they're not going to see it. We provide the benefit of being able to look directly into the sun from a navigational and a sensor awareness. We still meet spec and performance. Now, thermal heating, that's another thing.

A (13:29)

Before we get into that, you had mentioned that there was a gap. Is that specifically part of the gap right there about the the directionality, or can you, can we tell me a bit more about that gap?

C (13:40)

So the difference between the other LIDAR systems that many people are familiar with are time of flight, flash lidar. Those have some, you know, rf. I mean, you know, Apollo landed on the moon with RF laser, you know, technology, and it works fine. But this is another level of accuracy. Our velocity we can measure below 2 cm per second squared. Wow. And our ranges, we start getting, collecting data at well past 20km. And then as we get closer to our landing, the data fidelity and data modeling becomes even more clear. So our sweet spot is about 15km out, but we start getting good data. In some of our demonstrations, we've flown on F18s, we've flown on landers on the ground, on Earth. We've been in two missions in orbit and we've got some excellent performance data on landing actually on the moon.

A (14:44)

Yeah.

C (14:45)

So we're now working with clients. Astrobotics is going to be. We're on the Astrobotics Griffin mission. Wow.

A (14:53)

Yeah.

C (14:54)

That's fantastic.

A (14:55)

That's coming up soon, isn't it?

C (14:57)

It is and we're really excited. I mean, we're going to be. They're going to be landing. The mission is to go to the south pole, Shackleton's crater.

A (15:06)

Yep.

C (15:08)

Very harsh environment. So you have regolith, you have dust, you have on one side, it's very light and then you get into the crater, it's completely dark. So the environment is very tough.

A (15:23)

Yeah.

C (15:23)

And this LIDAR system that we've developed, that has been developed, we're now producing it. We've moved from R and D so the last couple years. We have revenue generating programs now, but it's perfect for that, that environment.

A (15:37)

Wow. So a lot of talk of lunar application beyond that also. Any, any your sights are on Mars maybe, perhaps.

C (15:45)

Yeah. So we're really, like I said, you know, when NASA was developing this technology, it was with the understanding that we have to have accurate, very precise landing. And we're seeing a lot of that. You know, there's been some failures out there. It's not easy to land on the moon. It's particularly not easy to do it like some of the eclipse missions. NASA is promoting doing this at, you know, a certain budget that just increases the challenges. So landing on the moon, we also have RPO systems which are scanning systems. It's a little different technology and a little different and depending on whether it's cooperative or non cooperative. So how you design the system at its core is the same. The electronics are the same. Now we have a beam pointing unit on it and whether you're putting static telescopes on it or scanning telescopes, that makes a difference in the kind of application that you're going to be using. Interesting.

A (16:51)

Okay, I always feel bad asking this question because you all are working at the cutting edge. But what's next? What else are you working on, you know?

C (16:59)

Well, that's a great question. So we're building the machine to build a machine. Right. So like I said, we've taught so much. You know, I started out at Orbital, very innovative, but it was a very entrepreneurial culture that we were mentored. We're trying to recreate or build that entrepreneurial culture where you know, your engineering teams, you know, they're thinking outside the box. All the same cliches that you're hearing everyone's trying to do. But the thing we're doing right now is photonic integrated chips. So that technology is going to reduce the swap your mass. So right now we're at four and a half kilograms which is phenomenal for this type of technology. We expect within the next six to seven months with our photonic integrated chips that we're going to be going through a qual program. We're actually working with jpl. We have contracts with JPL on the Mars sample return missions. So we're already anticipating what kind of qualification human rated type technology is needed to be out there. And for us it's going to be reducing the size.

A (18:21)

Yeah, yeah.

C (18:23)

Additionally in our technology roadmap we're also going to be, we want to deliver to our customers a total navigation system so processing, you know, our nav filter. We're already integrating imus on our ground systems. We've got that developed. We've also got the pic, which photonic integrated chip that's integrated all on our ground systems already. So our next step is to make it so space qualified but we want to deliver a complete package to the customer so they don't need to go and spend extra money or getting processing. You know, we don't want to be the company just gives them data and then they have to number crunch all that.

A (19:09)

Right, right.

C (19:09)

You know, so well, Bill, I don't.

A (19:12)

Always ask my guests this question, but you have a really fascinating story and you've got a lot of experience in this industry. So I figure given your perspective, what are you really excited about? Not just at what you all are working on, but just more in general about what's going on in space space industry right now. What's got you?

C (19:27)

Well I will tell you in my career there comes a point where you're, you're giving back and I am that I'm doing that a lot because I was mentored by some of the best in the, in the industry. But I do see the exploration Europa.

A (19:44)

Yeah.

C (19:45)

You know, there's minerals they're mining. We're actually working with some of our clients right now that are going to be doing studies to find water on the lunar surface. And we know there's about 5 to 6% but that's a small surface area that you have to find to find this.

A (20:09)

They're not going to make it easy for us to get it, they being the moon.

C (20:13)

So you know, it's the, the moon is going to be a port and it's going to be, you know, and then you can't take everything so you have to be able to build that space mobility. You're going to need to get and travel around.

A (20:29)

Yeah.

C (20:30)

This Mars, you know, getting to Mars is going to take, you know, this side and it's going to, it's not going to be one or two technologies. It's going to be, that's the beauty of space right now is. Well it's always been integrating multiple different systems into one.

A (20:45)

Yeah.

C (20:46)

And we believe that our product and Psionic has the, the right product out there to make that, that transition.

A (21:10)

We'll be right back.

B (21:19)

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A (22:30)

Welcome back. It's been interesting seeing how various space agencies around the world are choosing their lanes, so to speak, for areas that they are starting to really specialize in. To me, when I think about the many things that ESA is working on, I think of how they are really focusing on responsible sustainable spacecraft reentry and disposal. Learning how to do it in ways that are better for our planet, and prioritizing good reentry practices for active and ending missions, that kind of thing. I do hope other agencies will also follow their example. And along those lines, ESA is going to be doing an interesting research project involving two satellites and a plane later this year. Two ESA Cluster satellites. And Cluster is a four satellite constellation that finished its mission back in 2024 and are near the end of their life. Previously two satellites from Cluster already demised. But there are two remaining Cluster satellites and they are due to reenter this year in late August and early September. And ESA not only was able to tweak these remaining satellites trajectory, but it will also have a science team on a plane nearby the satellite's reentry points, so those scientists can observe the reentry itself in real time. Or at least they will try to. It's not a simple task when reentries do happen very quickly and oh, you know, a mere 80km up in the atmosphere, very, very high up there. And I should note, ESA did an experiment like this with the first two cluster satellites that demised in 2024. And yeah, it was crazy hard to get a plane anywhere near the reentry and gather any useful data. And ESA's not mincing words, it's gonna be crazy hard to do it again. But hey, the more data the better. Because whatever we can glean on how these satellites break up in the atmosphere, what survives and what doesn't will allow for smarter satellite design in what ESA calls design for demise. Ooh, it's kind of gothy. ESA will be doing a dedicated mission just to this effect actually, with something called Draco, which is all about learning about what happens during atmospheric reentry from the inside. So even more good data to come from that. And with Draco and Cluster, we'll have even better re entries and better safer satellite disposal. That's a win, win, win. And that's T minus. Brought to you by N2K CyberWire we would love to know what you think of our podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. If you like our show, and I certainly hope you do, please share a rating and review in your podcast app. If you don't mind, please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to space2k.com we are proud that N2K Cyberwire is part of the daily routine of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector. From the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies, N2K helps space and cybersecurity professionals grow, learn and stay informed. As the nexus for discovery and connection, we bring you the people, the technology and the ideas shaping the future of secure innovation. Learn how@n2k.com N2K Senior Producer is Alice Carruth. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Peter Kilpe is our publisher and I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thank you for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.

C (26:34)

T minus.

B (26:50)

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