Liz Stokes (8:11)

Today we have three additional stories for you to read up on. The first is an explainer on the security and defense partnership that has been signed between the EU and uk, which includes some space cooperation. The second is on Rocket Lab's third mission for iqps. And the final link is the announcement that starlab Space and Balance Ophthalmics are partnering to address astronaut vision loss.

Alice Carruth (8:36)

And can you remind us where we can find those links?

Liz Stokes (8:38)

Liz in addition to the selected reading section of our Show Notes, those links can be found on our website space.n2k.com.

Alice Carruth (8:46)

Just click on today's episode Hey T Miners Crew. If you'd like daily updates from us directly into your LinkedIn feed, be sure to follow the official N2K T minus page over on LinkedIn. And if you're more interested in the lighter side of what we do, here we are daily on Instagram. That's where we post videos and pictures from events, excursions and even some behind the scenes treats. Links are in the show notes and we hope you'll join us there.

Parker Wyschek (9:14)

Foreign.

Dave (9:29)

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Alice Carruth (10:21)

Today we have the first installment of The Space Nexus segment from our partners at the Aerospace Corporation.

Parker Wyschek (10:31)

And you're in the Nexus, courtesy of the T Minus Space daily podcast. I'm Parker Wyschek at the Aerospace Corporation. Today we're talking test beds and proving grounds of the propulsion persuasion with JD Dias, Director of Test operations for Agile Space Industries based in Durango, Colorado, and Amy Hubble, who until very recently led the Propulsion science department and our test facilities here at Aerospace. So let's get right to it, JD Testing capabilities are mission critical, particularly for propulsion. If you can't fly, you die in space. Now, this isn't all Agile does, but it is a core part of your DNA. Can you talk about your testing capabilities and how you've extended that as a service beyond your own enterprise?

JD Dyers (11:17)

Yeah, yeah, it's really important. It's how our whole company started testing for people before designing. We have two stands here that are pretty much high vacuum test stands for hypergalls. So we drive a vacuum with a really big nitrogen rocket that we fire the rockets in and that simulates a high altitude environment similar to what they would see in space. And then we could fire the rockets there. We're kind of expanding overall throughput and how many stands we have here in Durango, we're doing test stands in Oklahoma now as well and expanding on how long we can fire it to kind of target some of the recent failures that you've seen in space that have been pretty prominent and then kind of being able to cycle through as much as we can in both duration and quantity.

Parker Wyschek (11:59)

And this isn't just expansion in a vacuum, pun intended. There's demand for these capabilities, right?

JD Dyers (12:06)

Yeah, yeah. I have a lot of people asking if they can get on our test stand. We're booked out pretty much all the time. I try to break people in as we can.

Parker Wyschek (12:13)

You've even had folks send people your way because their capabilities were maxed and the queue was too long.

JD Dyers (12:21)

Yeah, that's kind of what's going on now is a lot of DPAs programs are eating up a lot of the government facilities. So they're kind of national security assets. And so we are trying to fill the gaps for anybody all the way top of the food chain to brand new startups. Everybody's looking for a place to test.

Parker Wyschek (12:36)

Excellent. So we can't just stand up these stands overnight. Amy, you oversaw some pretty intense construction here at Aerospace, some impressive expenditure of resources. What actually happens inside these test stands and what goes into ensuring that they're always providing access to a space like environment?

Alice Carruth (12:59)

Yeah. So I was involved with the construction of what we call EP3, which is our latest electric propulsion test stand. And there's a lot of similarities actually to what JD just described. For electric propulsion, you're pumping on typically a noble gas, xenon, krypton, argon. So these are also very large vacuum chambers. And the key design driver is actually pumping speed because you need to basically remove all the propellant that you're sending through the thruster in order to replicate the background of space. In our case, this involved a multi year campaign of designing custom pumping systems along with an absolutely massive chamber. This thing is 14ft diameter, 30ft long, has some very impressive and complicated, I'll say, accoutrements, add ons that are tremendously useful to all of the customers that we deal with. And again, a lot like JD Said, we are working with folks from all over who want to come and use these facilities. It's unique and provides a really vital service, but it's tough and expensive and timely to set these up. So it's important that they serve a broader purpose in the enterprise, not just for aerospace, but for all of the companies and stakeholders that are involved.

Parker Wyschek (14:18)

So all these folks that are knocking down your door to get into your test chambers, they all have the same exact needs, right? It's carbon copy this test to this test. I'm understanding it, right, J.D.

JD Dyers (14:30)

I'M hoping someday in heaven that's the case. But no. Every single one, you'll set up an entire multimillion dollar setup and then the next guy will show up and they need something just a little bit different. You've got to redo the whole thing. And then they want to test the next day and think that their changes are minor. Everybody's custom every single time. It's wild.

Parker Wyschek (14:51)

So you're not done. Once you've developed these stands, then you have to customize. How much demand would you say, Amy? What percentage of the demand for testing requires that customization?

Alice Carruth (15:04)

Probably 99%. There's always something. We've started developing techniques to try and standardize a bit of our testing approach. But typically when companies are looking to come to some of the, like our facility, they're at a point where they may be looking for something, I'll say, very bespoke or specific. They need that top tier pumping speed, they need a unique diagnostic. And so it usually almost always ends up being just slightly different or sometimes really different from the testing that we've done before. And that's another value that's provided by these testbeds and proving grounds is the ability to tailor the test campaign to the specific needs of the customer.

Parker Wyschek (15:47)

Do either of y' all have a favorite customization anecdote that you are allowed to share?

JD Dyers (15:54)

I have one. One of the requirements that somebody tried to flow to me was to put a super high speed camera in the plume. Looking up the throat and just being like, it's a rocket. I can't do that without just destroying like, what about a mirror? I'm like, it will die too. You can throw all kinds of things in the plume and it will die there.

Parker Wyschek (16:14)

So you're saying there's a business case for indestructible video that can actually live in the plume.

JD Dyers (16:19)

So I think GoPro's got a start on it. But yeah, pretty much it's pretty wild.

Parker Wyschek (16:25)

Amy, I know that one of the chambers that we have, mud pie, and you have to answer how we came to call it mudpi is one of your sandboxes, if you will, among our propulsion suite.

Alice Carruth (16:38)

So MudPi is a new facility. It's actually a small facility that we put together in order to kind of be able to rapidly respond to new unique test challenges. And the name MUD PI came about. We have a kind of a theme in our lab. A lot of our chambers are named after types of PI. And this is the chamber that we intended to be our kind of dirty propellants chamber for eps. This is where we might test multimode propulsion or other other things that we don't necessarily want to spew on our very expensive, very custom cryo pumping system that we've got in the big chamber. So for this chamber we had to essentially, I'll say, pull together a custom pumping system on our own in a couple of weeks to support an upcoming test. So that was. It was challenging and it worked surprisingly well. So, so it's important. We've talked a lot about these huge bespoke chambers too. But it's also really useful. We've found to have a lot of different options to be able to flex to the specific need of a test that we might have.

Parker Wyschek (17:42)

The JD and noting Agile has named its test stands after mountains in the vicinity of Durango. You'll have to tell us what the names are going to be in Oklahoma.

JD Dyers (17:53)

For our MESA facility.

Parker Wyschek (17:55)

Okay. All right, perfect. So we want to differentiate for listeners who might not know between chemical propulsion or chemprop and electric propulsion or ep. Amy, used earlier. Agile kind of specializes in the chemical propulsion. That's for high thrust, short duration propulsion in space. Ep, a Lower thrust, longer duration burn. Am I right on that? Or any nuances to add to that?

Alice Carruth (18:22)

I do use the metaphor that EP is your Toyota Prius and Chemprop is your F150. We're starting to see, I'll say, a little more overlap potentially between the two. Fundamentally, chemical propulsion is relying on some kind of chemical reaction to create your thrust, and electric propulsion is relying on some kind of electrostatic electromagnetic force to create your thrust. And usually that involves forming a plasma and using that kind of as your propellant. Whereas, you know, Chemprop is running on a chemical propellant like hydrazine or otherwise. There can be definitely some different challenges in designing a Chemprop facility versus an electric propulsion facility, but fundamentally, they do share a lot of similarities. You're ultimately just trying to replicate your operating environment for your thruster, and you may be trying to make some of the same kind of key measurements like thrust. You might be trying to characterize the plume or observe the effect of running the thruster on materials that are around it. Any number of things. There is some definite overlap there.

Parker Wyschek (19:30)

So Agile's trying to make some waves here. Speaking of the overlap, I believe I read the press release that y' all are aiming for a dual mode propulsion combining the EP and Chemprop capabilities. And y' all use the word audacious. Tell me about that. J.D.

JD Dyers (19:49)

Well, yeah, you'd be, you'd be kind of combining the technologies and using a decomposed chemical prop, you know, hydrazine, to be able to provide the, the gases that the EP needs. And so rather than having a system that goes up that has, you know, hydrazine tank for, you know, delta V maneuvers, and then xenon and Beetle needs something else. You just run on one propellant and then use something, decompose that, and then you can do a buy mode or dual mode. So you can run on a monoprop or even a BI prop, which we have an engine that can do both of those, or gasifying your hydrazine to be able to supply an EP thruster. So you kind of have, you know, what we're all kind of looking for is a holy grail of like the prius and the F150 being able to do both, well, we might as well probably have that in space before we have that down here with what we're working on. But it's definitely audacious.

Parker Wyschek (20:37)

Another audacious thing. You're supporting this kind of movement by the US Toward these responsive launch missions. How has your testing capability in house enabled you to be part of the victus Hayes mission, which is the latest in that series of responsive missions.

JD Dyers (20:55)

We've touched a lot of that testing has been a big part in that, in being able to develop the thrusters quick. But then also our fueling services, a lot of that is being able to provide fueling services. And now we're doing like mobile clean rooms to be part of that mission to kind of go wherever they need to. And so our testing services are more invalidating. Those processes work and then providing people who are experienced in working with hypergalls and helping kind of guide the design process for like the mobile clean room, the thrusters specifically associated with that and like trying to develop them as well. But the call up on that's going to be pretty wild on how we end up supporting it.

Parker Wyschek (21:30)

We're coming to the end here. Want to offer both of our guests an opportunity to make a final point. Call to action, Amy.

Alice Carruth (21:38)

So one key thing to remember with testing is that it only ever gets you so far. It can be a key tool to help you cross the TRL valley of death. But at some point you've got to take the leap and you've got to just fly the hardware. And as a matter of risk tolerance for our customers and stakeholders, how far they want to take that testing versus when they're ready to kind of take that leap and pull the hardware into space.

JD Dyers (22:02)

I think it's a great point. That last leap is kind of the most terrifying part. But you got to test. You know, test is critical. We'll know the next steps. Generally when we're doing these design validations or experimenting with stuff, you struggle into something and you know, when you do it in test, you can figure out what the next step is supposed to be. So I kind of preached our team here of like, you want to be the best at test so that design knows the next step they're going to make is the right step.

Parker Wyschek (22:29)

Excellent. So for propulsion testing, contact Agile, contact Aerospace. There are other test beds and proving grounds that are being collected and are accessible to the commercial enterprise. The Space ISAC is an example of an organization that's consolidating those resources. We'll provide some links in the show notes. Thank you, jd. Thank you, Amy. Thank you, T minus, and thank you for listening. And we'll catch you next time in the Nexus.

Alice Carruth (23:12)

We'll be right back.

Unknown (23:17)

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Alice Carruth (23:47)

Welcome back. Friday, May 16th would have been Dr. Nancy Grace Roman's 100th birthday Nancy was known as the mother of Hubble, not the man, but the space telescope that we all love and cherish, which is why she's also the namesake of the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope, which is due to launch in two years. Nancy was a trailblazer. She earned her bachelor's degree in astronomy from Swarthmore College in 1946 and a Ph.D. in astronomy from the University of Chicago in 1949. At the Naval Research Lab, she made significant contributions to radio astronomy, including mapping the Milky Way and measuring the distance to the moon. Using in 1959, Nancy became the first Chief of Astronomy at NASA and the agency's first female executive. She was instrumental in establishing NASA's Space Astronomy Program. Thanks to Nancy's vision and determination, the Hubble Space Telescope was launched in 1990, revolutionizing our understanding of the universe. After retiring from NASA, Dr. Roman often worked with young students in underserved communities, hoping her story and mentoring could inspire them to join humanity's quest for knowledge in a stem field. Dr. Nancy Grace Roman passed away in 2018, but her legacy continues to inspire generations of scientists and stargazers. On her 100th birthday, we celebrate a trailblazer whose vision opened our eyes to the wonders of the universe.

Parker Wyschek (25:26)

Foreign.

Alice Carruth (25:31)

That'S it for t miners for May 19, 2025, brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. For additional resources from today's report, check out our show notes@spare.n2k.com we'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. If you like the show, please share a rating and review in your podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to space2k.com we're privileged that N2K CyberWire is part of the daily routine of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector. From the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies, N2K makes it easy for companies to optimize your biggest investment your people. We make you smarter about your teams while making your team smarter. Learn how@n2k.com N2K's producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Iban. Peter Kilpie is our producer and I'm N2K senior producer Alice Carruth. Maria Valmazes will be back on the mic tomorrow. Thanks. Thanks for listening.

Alice Carruth (26:48)

T minus.

Dave (27:02)

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