Alice Cruz (8:07)

In today's Selected Reading section for you.

Maria Varmazas (8:09)

To go and read up on. The first is an announcement that Dave.

Alice Cruz (8:12)

Gallagher will be taking over as Director at jpl, and the other is on a delayed launch of India's first Gaganyan astronaut.

Maria Varmazas (8:19)

Well, that's not a huge surprise, but when can we expect that launch Now?

Alice Cruz (8:22)

They say no sooner than 2027, but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets pushed again.

Maria Varmazas (8:27)

Space is hard, don't you know.

Alice Cruz (8:29)

Anyway, those links, along with links to further reading on all the stories mentioned throughout the show can always be found on our website space.m2k.com just click on today's episode title.

Maria Varmazas (8:38)

Hey T minus crew. If your business is looking to grow your voice in the industry, expand the reach of your thought leadership or recruit talent, T minus can help. We'd love to hear from you. Send us an email@space2k.com or send us a note through our website so we can connect about building a program to meet your goals.

Joe Sherman (9:00)

Foreign.

Alice Cruz (9:07)

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Maria Varmazas (9:59)

Today's guest is Joe Sherman, Principal Aerospace and defense sector AI leader and US space program leader at PwC. I caught up with Joe at the Space symposium after PwC released their next In Space 2025 report.

Joe Sherman (10:17)

My name is Joe Skirman. I'm partner here at PwC. I lead our AI services for the aerospace and defense sector of the firm. I'm a co leader of our space program. So our recent white paper, our recent research that we just published is the Next in Space white paper. And that was to cover both the economic impact as well as trends in space that we're seeing and our specific points of view and where we see a lot of value. We don't have a public sector business, so we only focus on the commercial market. And we have a very strong point of view with where space is headed from a commercialization perspective. And some of the work that I've done personally in this space and that we're doing in this space is assisting with AI integration. And I know that's the buzzword and generative AI is just everywhere.

Maria Varmazas (11:01)

Right, right. But for good reason. I mean that the applications in the space industry are massive and game changing. And I mean it is buzz, but it's also valid.

Joe Sherman (11:09)

But if you think about where this needs to go, we don't have the frequency of launches that we need to get the capacity of workloads and payloads that we need to into space. And that's usually because of long cycles to get to launch. Engineering of aircraft, spacecraft, satellites, individual components takes years in some cases. And some of the projects that I've been on in this sector specifically, I walk in and I notice that, yeah, brilliant engineers, aerospace engineers are some of the most brilliant people I've ever worked with. But they're still kind of processing technology in a manual way. And so these processes are taking so long. And you have aircraft, spacecraft and satellite on ground for three months, six months, or even years in length. And so we're not getting to the point where we can really commercialize space just yet. It's still heavily kind of run in control or domain by government or military. And so that's where we want to be. We want to be in that position where we're helping the smaller company become ready to be acquired or go IPO or public for their organization to offer their services in the space marketplace. We want to be there for the larger companies to be able to streamline aerospace engineering processes, program management, to get to a point where there's actually a.

Maria Varmazas (12:33)

Space, global marketplace given, given all that you all, where you all are in the market and who you are working with and what you are seeing. You had mentioned that you all have like a strong point of view on what's going on in commercial space that I would love to hear about that, especially from the report that you all mentioned the next in space, because I it's everybody's got their crystal ball about what we think is coming, but it's always very interesting to hear the perspectives that different organizations bring to bear. So one area that I'm always very interested in and I know is a huge hot topic in our industry is workforce workforce development. Any insights on that that you all can share?

Joe Sherman (13:09)

Yeah, well in that topic, first of all, it's a great point, excellent topic. So in that specific point of view or in that specific category I was mentioning streamlining aerospace engineering and program management. But that's just like one or two pieces of the pie, right? It's the overall back office, it's the streamlining of overall operations, period. My point of view is a lot of these organizations because of regulation have not been able to adopt generative AI capabilities or any type of adjacent automation type service because you have ITAR controls, ITAR regulations, export controls, even individuals working on these projects all have to be US person, right? And so for the past like five, six years where cloud and AI and then generative AI services have been released, I'm watching all my buddies and my colleagues have all this fun with all the technology, with all their commercial, non space and aerospace defense clients, really building on some really cool use cases and really helping the workforce be more enabled. Right? And part of that is creating an agentic AI approach where you have individual operation teams or specific line of business units and individuals that are paired up with like a Gen Copilot or some sort of capability that enhances their ability to move faster and be more educated and get to an answer faster. Right? We want to do the same thing in the space sector and these regulations, hopefully that are being released or removed or at least lowered is going to lower the barrier to entry. And you've seen that this is the biggest year of AI in space personal because last year there was a vendor, Microsoft came out with the only solution for artificial intelligence in a government cloud environment. And that happened in June of last year. And so a lot of customers flocked to that because it was the first and only solution. Now multiple vendors have that capability and as of January 28th and I've held multiple AI roundtables around these events and launches. I held one back in late January and ChatGPT government was announced, or their version of Skinny GPT if you will, is a containerized version of ChatGPT Enterprise that can be enabled for government and aerospace and defense clients. These are the things that have to continue to occur to help the workforce and enable the workforce to drive bigger, stronger, faster. But outside of AI overall, if you think about the community, the economy overall, these new commercial contracts are going to drive more jobs, more opportunities in local communities and go beyond the typical stream of defense industrial base to the typical controlled aerospace and defense contractors.

Maria Varmazas (15:50)

Yeah, I mean it's been really fascinating sort of being a fly on the wall for a lot of conversations about the adjacent industries that space is looking at. Where the synergies make a lot of sense. Energy has come up a lot. I mean it makes so much sense there. Yeah. And it's just been the opportunities there are massive and it's just been encouraging hearing the redoubled efforts that people are.

Joe Sherman (16:12)

Making on that and that the specific categories of business that are popping up, I mean they range from like far fetched ideas, but they're real, really happening. Like the reflect on a highway system. There's millions of those. Right. That are created. And one of my colleagues and friends came up with this concept. There's going to be a space reflector business out there as we build the highway in space and all these types of companies that are out there. And me personally, this is a real thing. It's called space trucking. I'm really personally interested in space trucking just because I'm a big trouble and little China fan. I'm imagining Kurt Russell driving a space based 18 wheeler. No, but that's a real thing. You got cis lunar, you've got between planet, you've got space station, you know, items that are going to be quartered around. Right?

Maria Varmazas (16:52)

Yeah. Space logistics. It's for real.

Joe Sherman (16:53)

Absolutely. And it's going to open up new opportunities in the commercial market that are non military, non, you know, defense contractor. And so it's, it's really kind of awesome to really see the proliferation of these opportunities vastly becoming available.

Maria Varmazas (17:06)

And I'm going to shorthand you a little bit as like an AI guy. I'm sorry if that's, that's reductive.

Joe Sherman (17:11)

They call me AI Joe by the way.

Maria Varmazas (17:13)

Oh no way.

Joe Sherman (17:14)

It's really sad.

Maria Varmazas (17:14)

Oh my God. Do they have a little green figure?

Joe Sherman (17:17)

My daughter actually created a GI Joe cartoon image with me holding a laptop on the moon. It's pretty pathetic, I know, but I love that. I'm sorry.

Maria Varmazas (17:26)

That's great. AI Joe. No doubt as someone with expertise in AI and as you're looking around and just seeing, for lack of a better term, the Future that is now the capabilities that I think even just a few years ago, which were just sort of purely aspirational, that now with AI are becoming very, very real. And I'm thinking of autonomy and autonomous navigation and that kind of thing, especially where it's just breakneck. I mean, I'm just. I would love to just get your thoughts on where that is going. Maybe timelines that you think might be realistic for that kind of thing and its development.

Joe Sherman (18:03)

It is happening now, I think it's been happening.

Maria Varmazas (18:04)

Yeah, that's right, yeah.

Joe Sherman (18:05)

Actually, Starting back in 2019, I was on a special team working with the Pentagon and other military agencies on remote sensing. And so we were building computer vision models to look at these individual sensors and cameras and images, et cetera, to break down the data and build AI based knowledge graphs to kind of piece everything together that was happening six years ago.

Maria Varmazas (18:28)

Yeah. So it's not manual. Right.

Joe Sherman (18:30)

So nowadays, you know, I've got clients right now in space transport as an example that are thinking of not thinking about. They're doing it right now that are building data centers in orbit because there's specific and special applications of agricultural, pharmaceutical, kind of cross industry capabilities that they want to run specific workloads in a data center, on a satellite, in a space station or on a specific location like Mars or the moon. These things are happening right this second. And if you tie that back to the commercialization of space and where we fit into, like we have clients that are agricultural, you know, dominant clients. Right. Or we have relationships with the large pharmaceuticals. And so these individual companies are buying and renting space, no pun intended, renting space in a data center in space and gathering the results and transmitting data not just to Earth, but long term between, you know, orbital devices.

Maria Varmazas (19:30)

Yeah. Like computing at the edge, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Sherman (19:33)

At the edge, Absolutely.

Maria Varmazas (19:33)

Yeah. It's just a. Sorry for sounding very Pollyanna about it, but it's just, it's just amazing to me that it's happening.

Joe Sherman (19:39)

The things that we thought were possible as kids are now actually occurring.

Maria Varmazas (19:43)

It's actually happening. It just always blows my mind since the topic that brings us together is next in space. I just want to just. Is there anything that maybe you want to make sure that you flag as this is something to keep an eye on?

Joe Sherman (19:54)

Yeah, I would say we have a pretty strong point of view in the launch area where if you can't beat them, join them. Right. And there's some very vertically integrated, self sustaining launch providers that are out there and it's very difficult to compete with that even at a cost structure because they're so vertically integrated. They have everything, you know, the materials, the staff, the launch facilities, et cetera. You know, I would say that more commercial organizations should subscribe to and partner more with those types of organizations so that they can launch more frequently instead of spending an additional 5, 10, 15 years of building their own facilities. Let's get things to space. Let's get payloads and workloads to space. Right? And I also think that if we increase that network capacity and kind of rely on what's already vertically integrated and cost efficient, then we will get to a faster commercialization effort in the space community and economy.

Maria Varmazas (21:07)

We will be right back.

Alice Cruz (21:15)

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Maria Varmazas (22:01)

Welcome back. Two short items for you for today's final story. One's a take backseat from NASA about the Viper lunar rover, the nearly completed rover that maybe wasn't going to be a NASA thing anymore and going to this commercial sector instead is maybe now going to be a NASA thing again. The US Space Agency put out a terse update that they're canceling its partnership proposal solicitation and instead, and I quote, opting to explore alternative approaches to deliver its Viper rover to the moon. Huh. Okay, well, let's cut NASA a break, I suppose. It is a turbulent time over there right now. Interesting development though. Second item up for you is also moon related, but this one is from China. The nation has made the world's first daytime laser ranging measurement from the Earth to the moon. The Chinese Academy of Sciences bounced an infrared laser off of a retroreflector on the Tiandu Lunar Orbiter. Now, lunar retroreflectors help us locate on the moon missions with precision and get precise measurements of the distance between the Earth and the moon. Because while it is a great distance, it does vary quite a bit and those variances matter. Those retroreflectors, by the way, are also a great way to prove those lunar landing conspiracy theorists very wrong. Humanity's been to the moon and let's bounce a laser off a thing we put there just to show you. But the moon is far away and that bounced laser ping or I guess it's really the pong is pretty weak on its way back, and normally we try to do this kind of maneuver at night when solar interference is minimized, but this was a world's first as it was done during the day. So to heck with the sun's interference. So nicely done and congratulations to China on this very neat accomplishment. That's it for T minus for May 8, 2025, brought to you by N2K CyberWire. For additional resources from today's report, check out our show notes@space.n2k.com we're privileged that N2K and podcasts like T minus are part of the daily routine of many of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector, from the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies. N2K Senior Producer is Alice Carruth. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We are mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Peter Kilpe is our publisher and I'm your host, Maria Varmazes. Thanks for listening. I'll see you tomorrow.

Joe Sherman (24:39)

T minus.

Alice Cruz (24:52)

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