Dave Bittner (5:24)

Kim. So in terms of, like, lifelong awareness of this, because I think something Maria and I have in common is generally ignorance of it. Like, I was not aware that Juneteenth was a thing until it became a federal holiday.

Maria Vermasis (5:41)

Yep. I will absolutely fess up to that. I was.

Kim Jones (5:44)

No, no, no. As I said earlier, it's not something to feel bad about. It gets back into that oral histories within varied communities, and it's particularly in. So here's a. Let me take this back a little bit. I'm old enough to remember the publication of Alex Haley's Roots and Levar Burton in his breakout role before Jodi laforge as Kunta Kinte within that series. What we don't necessarily recognize or realize is why that was such a big deal is because of the history of African Americans coming over as slaves and families being broken up. It was thought that it was not just difficult, but damnably impossible to put together a lineage on an individual that dates back as they do in other communities within the environment. So the ability for us to keep history even back 150, 200 years has been difficult, has been. I won't call it underground because it really hasn't been underground. It's been more a matter of kept within ethnic communities. Is not unusual and we're not unique. Think about towns and cities that have Chinatowns and think about how much we don't know regarding the history and the calendars, et cetera, there. So for me, I've been aware of Juneteenth for decades because this is part of the history of that my father made sure that we did not forget as children growing up. So, yeah, it's been lifelong for me. It's been something I've known about for a while. It's been something that I've taken a quiet moment and reflected upon in my adult years before the rest of the world became aware of it.

Dave Bittner (7:41)

What has it been like for you, Kim, to witness the rest of the United States become aware of this and to see it become recognized as a national holiday?

Kim Jones (7:54)

This gets to the point we were talking about beforehand in terms of how meaningful a discussion do you wish to have, Dave? And I want to ask you that question directly before I answer the question you just asked me, because depending on how meaningful you want to get, there are a multitude of answers I can give you.

Dave Bittner (8:13)

Well, I'd say don't hold back.

Kim Jones (8:15)

All right, then. You know, on the one hand, and I'm probably not, I'm probably going to give you partly an expected answer and partly an unexpected answer. The expected answer, and one that I wholly, you know, support, agree with and pleased with, is this level of recognition of this part of our history within the environment, for me, is a great and wonderful thing. You know, it is recognizing that there are portions of our society that it is not necessarily pleasant for us to remember that we treated in a subhuman fashion. I would argue a still, and I'm not just talking African Americans treating in a subhuman fashion and recognizing those struggles and celebrating our triumph over those struggles, for me, is an absolutely wonderful thing. And that's the expected answer, and it's one that I wholeheartedly agree with. Partly. The expected answer is also we are now living in a time where we're seeing a backlash against that recognition. We're seeing. We're seeing oppressors claim oppression within the environment. We're seeing terms like diversity, equity, and inclusion being used in some cases to mask a resurgence of prejudice and bigotry. And considering I'm a West Point grad and I spent many years in the profession of arms defending this constitution and doing things that some of those who would claim that I'm a diversity hire despite 40 years of just doing it damn hard and use that as an excuse to denigrate my accomplishments, et cetera, there's no better way to say it pisses me off to no end. Now, the unexpected answer is that I've got to admit that part of what we're going through is deserved. And it's deserved because in typical human fashion, when we swung the pendulum, we didn't swing the pendulum to the middle. We swung the pendulum absolutely to the other direction. We didn't go towards an environment where everyone was being recognized for the content of their character, to quote brother Martin. But we went to the environment where we castigated, vilified white men for lack of a better term. And I would sit on the varsity panels for many years and saying, we're missing somebody. You know, here's the minority, here's the female, here's the transgender individual. Where's the white male? It's not exactly like they're the enemy, guys. And we're seeing, unfortunately, a backlash against diversity because we didn't swing to the middle. And unfortunately, we are also swinging again. 180 degrees out versus truly creating the environment that I believe our founding fathers wanted. And that shows the progress that we have made versus refighting the battles that my dad marched with John Lewis at the Edmund Pettus Bridge decades ago. Why are we refighting those battles again? And why am I worrying about my son the way that my dad worried about my brother and me? That's a very complex answer. But I believe if we really want to talk about these things, we need to recognize their complexity versus just put simple labels on things and say it's good or it's bad or it's right or it's wrong. This is a complex issue. I think diversity matters. In my podcast, I talked about how diversity creates critical thinking, which insecurity gives us better solutions and a better ability to innovate. I talk about a little bit about the reason that the numbers have gotten better. And we've seen the results not only of the numbers, but of the innovation that has happened is because we put focus on it. I think those are good things. And swinging away from that, I think will have an adverse impact on our ability to ideate, to innovate, and to solve within the cyberspace. I think it's hugely important. And I'm hearing too many voices either go to one extreme or the other versus talk about value proposition. And how we meet in the middle. And I could probably say that about a lot of things, but I think it weakens us all if we continue to divide instead of figuring out this is an issue we should want to come together on, particularly within the cyber community. And now I'm going to exhale and get back off my soapbox and calm down. You told me, go for it, don't hold back. So I did.

Dave Bittner (13:20)

No, no, it's all good.

Maria Vermasis (13:22)

It requires nuance. No, I, I'm really appreciating what you said, Kim, because this is, it is very easy to, to go into extremes, and, you know, those are the easier answers. And this is definitely something that requires thought and nuance as you provided. So I want to thank you for that.

Kim Jones (13:35)

And I love the first part that you said there. It requires thought. Thought requires us to sit back and reflect, not just to react. So.

Maria Vermasis (13:45)

And that's hard.

Kim Jones (13:46)

Think about this stuff we do.

Maria Vermasis (13:48)

I'm really appreciating what you said. And I've had them. I'm a white lady, so, you know, I'm, I'm speaking from that point of view. But I, I, I, I know there.

Kim Jones (13:54)

Have been times my nickname is Homegirl. We've established that. All right. And now we're going to let the podcast figure out why that's gonna be.

Maria Vermasis (14:05)

For now, there have been times where, like, I've been the only woman in the room, and I have. I couldn't help but wonder is, is the reason I'm the only woman in the room, because I'm like, the token diversity lady here. And that is a really insidious. It gets into you deep that, that wondering, like, why am I actually here? Am I here because of my expertise? Do I provide value? Or am I just good optics for somebody? Am I like, a convenient. Am I useful idiot for somebody, for lack of a better term? And that is a feeling that really gets into you.

Kim Jones (14:35)

And I would encourage you, and I would encourage everyone else. Don't. And, you know, I'm a child of the late 60s. I grew up in arguably the most liberal state in the Union, yet I still had crosses burned on my lawn in northeast Massachusetts. I remember the Klan marching down in Boston in the late 1980s. I also remembered Boston saying, no, we fought this battle. We're not going to do it. And the Klan marched literally three feet into the paddy wagon so they could get out of their safe place. So I've seen Boston go through its bus. Yeah, I've seen Boston segregation. I've lived through these one of the things that my dad instilled in me when I would be here in these environments is he said a couple of things. He said, look, it's not good, bad, right or wrong, it is. And while you rail against it, which you should, and while you fight against it, which you ought to, and while you survive it, which. And while you win despite the circumstances, you've got to figure out how to survive it. And part of figuring out how to survive it is never forgetting your self worth. Look me in the mirror and say, do you think anyone is giving you anything? Do you think anyone is doing you any favors? Do you think, yeah, it's going to be harder than the next person standing next to you. So you have a choice to either wallow in self pity or realize you're here because you belong here. And that's it. And I've always taken the attitude, if I'm the only one in the room, it's because I was the only one who was good enough and fit in, honoring enough to actually stand there. If they opened the door because they thought they were going to get a token, shame on them. Because I do break, fix, cleanup, CISO work. And I know nothing about the back now. And I guarantee you, Maria, I know you're the same way. So, you know, I don't like the fact that that may be the reason the door open. I hope it's not. But the bottom line is I'm here because I deserve to be here. And I encourage you and anyone listening, you're in the room because you deserve to be there. And if you question that they are one step, they those who would think less. I'm going to use the term humanely regarding fellow human beings. They're one step closer to winning and I'm sorry, I hate to lose. So I'm just gonna give him that.

Maria Vermasis (17:09)

Important wisdom, especially right now.

Dave Bittner (17:13)

Let me ask you this. Cause I'm sure there are folks listening to this. And it is every time we enter this avenue of discussion, we get letters and people say, hey, here you go again. That woke Cyber Wire. You know, stay in your lane. Your lane is cybersecurity. Why are you getting into politics? Stay in your lane. I think that's an outdated thought these days.

Kim Jones (17:43)

It would be easy for me to say, yeah, I agree, but these are all nuanced conversations. So a shameless bit of self promotion that answers the question is to ask people to listen to episode six of CISO Perspectives. Episode six. I took on diversity and I said, does diversity matter in cybersecurity? And I thought long and hard before I did that episode because there would be presumption as an African American male and one who remembers when There were only 27 African American CISOs in the United States, we all knew one another and remembers those things, that I was attempting to make a political statement. And there are concerns as things become politicized that all we are doing is making political statements. So one of the things that I did during that episode and that I continue to do this episode being the exception, is I try and get away from the divisiveness around those politics that you hear within the media this day and age. And what I said then, and I actually repeated it a few episodes ago when I did my mid season reflection, and that one is out in the public space, is I said, look, I'm not qualified to talk about political issues. I'm not a politician. So I like to tell people in business regarding politics, I don't dance, but I do know the steps and can call the tune because I hate politics. Politics of any form or fashion. So I'm not going to make political statements within the environment. I can't speak to politics, but I can speak to security. And after doing this for almost 40 years, there are not too many people who have that much more experience at this, doing operational security than I do. So I can speak to the importance of critical thinking and I can speak to how having diversity of backgrounds, perspectives, dibs and ethnicity is included in that and gender is included with that makes for teams that think critically better than other teams. And considering our job is to make lemonade out of two apples of grapefruit and kumquat and make it look easy. You want the ability, you can steal that. I've been using it for years, Maria.

Maria Vermasis (20:20)

I'm literally writing that down in my.

Kim Jones (20:21)

Head, considering that that's our gig. I need people who can think critically and teams to think critically. And if we all have the same background, ethnicity, gender affiliation, as well as education, etcetera, we lose that capability. So I understand, Dave, the backlash in terms of. Oh my God, stay in your lane, okay? My lane is security. Okay? That is my lane. And I've been doing it a lot longer and dare I say, in some cases, damn site better than a lot of the some of the folks out there. Some. But I've been doing a lot longer than a whole lot of the folks out there. And in my lane, critical thinking matters. And in my lane, understanding that diversity creates better critical thinking teams, I contend that any security professional should be a proponent of diversity. And if you're not, you're cutting off one of the legs of the profession. So I understand the pushback in today's contentious environment and the politicizing of the issue, but let's take all of that out of there. Diversity makes us better innovators. It makes us better problem solvers. And considering that my job is to whoop up on bad guys and make it look easy and find innovative ways to let the companies do those BS things that are driving big holes and holes through your environment and still be secure, yeah, I damn sure need to think critically. And that means I need folks who don't think like me, don't have prior military experience, didn't grow up in New England, you know, didn't have a college education, and the list goes on, on the team so that somebody could come up with the idea that I can't even begin to conceptualize. You know, diversity is how we win in cyber diversity. So in that regard, if you're a cyber professional, diversity is your lane and all the other political noise that's going out there. You're right, you're right. That's not my lane. As a citizen and a human being. Yeah, that's my concern and I do things to support that. But in my podcast and your podcast, if you're a cyber professional, diversity damn well better be your lane because it's how we win. So again, when we get back off.

Dave Bittner (22:50)

The showbox, I guess, you know, part of my, my perception though is that it's not that we're straying out of our lane, it's that they've come careening into ours with things like doge, with the current, you know, situation in Washington and the White House that cybersecurity used to, much more than it does today. Enjoy sort of bipartisan neutrality.

Maria Vermasis (23:17)

Same thing for space, by the way.

Kim Jones (23:19)

Yes.

Dave Bittner (23:19)

Yeah. And it's not so much that way anymore. And that's not the fault of the folks in cyber.

Kim Jones (23:26)

Right. The fault is, is how we approach it. And DOGE goes beyond Juneteenth. But as an example, what we get is into identity access management, exposure of data and data protection. The way we argue this problem isn't politically over the President's right to do X and how this happens with Y, but in understanding that what we are doing in certain cases and be specific and fact based about those cases violates some basic tenets that we've grown up under. What we tend to do is we tend to do what I just did and get on the soapbox and rail at things and we contribute to the noise engine rather than this particular problem violates basic practices of security that we've done for three to four decades. And if you wish to do this, which is your right as commander in chief or is your right as the government and those conversations to whether it is or ain't or well outside of my wheelhouse, then I have a right as not only a private citizen but but as a decades old cyber professional to ask what the hell are you doing to take care of these concerns. And that's not a political statement, that's a. I'm a cyber guy. I should be asking those statements because my customers are going to ask them of me. So I'm your customer. It's not wrong for me to ask them of you. So for me the issue is not just that these things are careening in Dave, but our response is again, it is not thoughtful, data driven experiential response. It is knee jerk reaction that feeds the engine and allows others to dismiss the argument.

Dave Bittner (25:17)

Well, let me bring it back to Juneteenth and maybe wrap up with this question, which is as the representative middle class privileged white male in the room, what's the best way for me to be an ally? What do you hope for me as I am reflective and thoughtful about this day?

Kim Jones (25:44)

I don't want allies. I want humans. That's really what it amounts to, be a human being. I think if we just treated everyone like human beings and understood that our history is complicated, our relationships are complicated. But going back to Brother Martin, let's talk and judge people by not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. And let's do that on all sides of the equation. I'd like to add one more thing as a different answer to your question. I still, I don't want allies. I want humans. But it's something that I encourage us all to do. It is to be fearless. And it's hard because, you know, again, now I am straying outside the lane of a cyber professional here as I have this conversation. But in this case I do believe it needs to be said. There has been a retaliatory nature within the administration, an executive order that targets specific law firms or a specific human being for doing his job. You know, it's created a fear within. If I speak up or I show up now, oh my God, what's going to happen is created fear in some of the organizations that I have affiliated with who are either being quiet or adjusting some of what they do within the environment because they're fearful of losing business or having the full weight of the government potentially come out against them. So I understand it's easy that someone at my end of my career at this point in my life to say, be fearless. But that level of fearlessness is how we will succeed. And if you're being factual, as you are being fearless, you don't contribute to the noise engine and you force people to think and you remind yourself that there are other fearless individuals out there. And again, this is beyond cyber, and I admit that freely to your listeners. But. And it reflects my personal feelings. I'm an xgi. I'm a West Point grad. I went to the no Kings rally rather than celebrate the 250th anniversary of the service that I was in with a lot of other old army guys as well. We were all there, and it was surprising. And I was actually west of Greater Phoenix. I wasn't even one of the main rallies. And as my wife and I were heading there, there was that, you know, even if it's only two or three of us, we're going to show up and we're going to represent. Because there's that feeling of isolation because everybody is being quiet, that you are the only ones out there. You are the only ones who feel this way. And when I say west of Phoenix, that there were quite literally thousands of people lining the street, you know, for two hours before the sun broke triple digits, but still damn hot out there first thing in the morning. And tons and tons and tons of people just honking their horns and waving signs. It was a reminder that you're not alone. So I urge, not only in the larger context in terms of, to answer your question, David, to be fearless. But, Maria, to your comment earlier regarding being the only person there. I've had conversations with folks that say, I don't want to take gigs because no one looks like me. And my response has been very, very angry. How the hell is it going to change if you don't show up? You know, somebody has got to be the first person through the door. And if you're given that opportunity, I'm not saying it's gonna be easy, but be fearless. It's the only way things continue to evolve and get better. Back off the soapbox.

Maria Vermasis (30:21)

Last time I'm giving you snaps.

Kim Jones (30:25)

Here we go.

Dave Bittner (30:28)

We're gonna close today with a special bit of poetry here. And, Maria, this T Minus podcast, can you tee this up for us? What are we going to hear here?

Maria Vermasis (30:39)

Yeah, so this is Dr. Cyan Proctor. And she is an astronaut who was on the Inspiration4 mission a few years ago, not that long ago. And I got to interview her in person, which was, I think my first in person astronaut interview earlier this year. And I asked her to recite the poem that she wrote that was basically what got her on this mission. I didn't actually know what was in the poem, so it was kind of a surprise. It was a beautiful surprise. And so she recited it for me and here it is.

Kim Jones (31:10)

Fantastic.

Cyberwire Network (31:11)

This is space to inspire the poem that won me a seat to space. You've got space. I've got space. We all have space to inspire. That's why we dream of going higher and higher. But what is space if you can't breathe? Let's stop sucking out the air of our humanity. We have a moment to seize the light Earth from space both day and night. We have J for justice to ignite the bold we have E for equity to cut past the old we have D for diversity to end the fight we have I for inclusion to try to make it right A Jedi space to rally behind A universal force so big it binds Inspiration to change the world A new beginning for us to hold. It's not about you, it's not about me. It's about space to inspire for all of humanity. Science, technology, engineering and math. Sending us out on the explorer's path. But don't forget the arts, the heartbeat of time. Consider sending a poet who knows how to rhyme. So let us drop the mic and close the capsule door. But Please make sure Dr. Proctor is on board. My space to inspire is what we need inspiration for. For all of humanity.

Kim Jones (32:51)

That is beautiful.

Maria Vermasis (32:53)

She's an amazing person.

Kim Jones (32:55)

The sad part is I was just linked with her by Jennifer, one of the producers, because she lives here in Phoenix.

Maria Vermasis (33:05)

Oh. That's all. I did not know that. She's amazing. I'm sure you guys will have some fascinating conversations and I'd love to be a fly on the wall for those.

Kim Jones (33:16)

You should come on out. No, you should come on out in October. It's 110.

Maria Vermasis (33:20)

Yeah, I was gonna say not this time of year. Right? I'll melt in a New Englandy pile of goo. I was really moved by her poem. I didn't know what was in it because I had never heard it before. So her just reciting it from memory was very powerful. But we were in the context of, I think, the. A lot of the cuts at NASA. And this is earlier this year, a lot of the stuff that Doge was doing had just started happening, and we started seeing a lot of, you know, biographies of basically non white male astronauts getting, you know, cut from a lot of websites. And it was a very emotionally charged time for a lot of us. And she was fearless in what she was saying, and I just, I. I respect the hell out of her for that, honestly.

Dave Bittner (34:04)

All right, well, Kim Jones is host of the CISO Perspective Perspectives podcast right here on the N2K CyberWire Network. Maria Ramasas hosts the T Minus Space Daily Podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time. This was time well spent, and I very much enjoyed it. So thank you all, and thank you, everyone, for listening. We will see you back here again soon. Take care.