Alice Carruth (7:45)

Thanks, Maria. We've included a draft solicitation from the US Space Force for Gears 3, GPS sustainment support, Iridium's 2024 financial report, and an announcement on York Space Systems on a new offering.

Maria Varmazis (7:59)

And where can we find those stories?

Alice Carruth (8:01)

Links to all the stories mentioned throughout the show can always be found in the Show Notes and at our website, space.n2k.com simply click on this episode title.

Maria Varmazis (8:12)

Hey T minus Crew. If your business is looking to grow your voice in the industry, expand the reach of your thought leadership, or recruit talent, T minus can help. We'd love to hear from you. Just send us an email@space2k.com or send us a note through our website so we can connect about building a program to meet your goals.

Dave Limp (8:44)

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Maria Varmazis (9:28)

Today's guest is Paul Cremen, the Commercial Spaceflight Regulation and Policy lead at the UK's Department for Transport and I started by asking Paul about his role and how he got involved in launch site and vendor licensing.

Paul Cremen (9:43)

In 2014. UK Space Agency came to me and Said, you know, we want to do launch in the uk.

Maria Varmazis (9:50)

Yeah.

Paul Cremen (9:51)

How do we do that? And of course you go through the process of trying to understand what other countries are doing. So, you know, the obvious place to go was the US to see what the US were doing at the time. And of course your own industry here is phenomenal and going on in leaps and bounds. But the problem with the US system compared with what we wanted in the UK was that we wanted to take a wholly commercial approach. And US regulations and environment, of course, are grown out of a state sponsored launch program. We wanted to take the best of what you did that go much further.

Maria Varmazis (10:42)

So wholly commercial, that's an interesting approach. Why? Why commercial first or wholly commercial? Yeah.

Paul Cremen (10:48)

Partly because the UK government doesn't spend the same sort of money on space as. As the US does.

Maria Varmazis (10:56)

Right.

Paul Cremen (10:56)

Can't compete. So. So obviously we're looking for people that would like the opportunity to invest, grow and thrive.

Maria Varmazis (11:08)

Absolutely.

Paul Cremen (11:09)

Building on from that.

Maria Varmazis (11:10)

Yes.

Paul Cremen (11:12)

We had to develop a legal and regulatory framework. So in fact, my team were responsible with that, working with the UK Space Agency and Civil Aviation Authority at the time to work out how we would do that in the uk. And then of course, not only did we have to create a legal and regulatory framework, but we had to create a new regulator for space. And, you know, there were multiple options to consider, but ultimately we chose the Civil Aviation Authority because of their, you know, they're a world respected regulator, they took across a number of people from the UK Space Agency, so they brought some skills in and since then they've been developing those skills. And of course they're now issuing orbital licenses.

Maria Varmazis (12:07)

Yes, yep.

Paul Cremen (12:08)

Spaceport licenses and launch operated licenses. And of course in the UK we now have two spaceports with licenses.

Maria Varmazis (12:20)

Yeah.

Paul Cremen (12:21)

We have Spaceport Cornwall, who was the first in the UK to get a spaceport license. And more recently last year, Saxe aboard Spaceport. And the difference is Nuki, or Spaceport Cornwall is a horizontal launch spaceport.

Maria Varmazis (12:39)

Indeed. Yeah, yep.

Paul Cremen (12:41)

And Sax aboard Spaceport, which is right in the north, the furthest north you can get in UK is a vertical launch spaceport.

Maria Varmazis (12:51)

Yeah.

Paul Cremen (12:52)

And so we're very excited to see operations start soon.

Maria Varmazis (12:55)

Yeah. And having sovereign launch access is paramount for domestic launch and rocket makers and all these different industries that crop up around that. And there's been a lot of funding news about that recently. Actually, I think we just reported on some of that just recently. Orbex, a big funding infusion there, and then RFA as well with launch licensing. So, I mean, that's Fantastic developments.

Paul Cremen (13:22)

There it is. And you know, these companies need a boost to get to make sure that they are sustainable and that they can get to where they want to get to. So both the Scottish government and UK government are helping those launch companies with a bit of seed funding to get where they are. So when I talk about wholly commercial funding, you know, it's fair to say we do give a little bit of funding, but it's not on the same scale as what we're seeing in the U.S. but those spaceports need to be sustainable, they need to attract business partners and of course launch operators to make them work.

Maria Varmazis (14:08)

And one could argue with it being a wholly commercial enterprise and you have really viable businesses as opposed to being propped up by government funding.

Paul Cremen (14:17)

Yeah. And it's hard for any, any startup. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of investment that goes in and those investors want to see a quick return on those investments.

Maria Varmazis (14:28)

Yeah.

Paul Cremen (14:30)

And of course, you know, the regulatory process, the licensing process are long lead in times.

Maria Varmazis (14:40)

Yeah.

Paul Cremen (14:41)

And that costs money and so they have to be able to demonstrate that they have those skills. They have the right aptitude to be able to do the things that they want to do.

Maria Varmazis (14:54)

Shifting focus a little bit. Something that I remember we've been looking at in the last year or so were sort of the space clusters that were developed and announced a lot last year. And it sounds like maybe the cluster model is being deprecated slightly. If I understand a bit.

Paul Cremen (15:11)

I'm not sure that's true. I think space ports need multiple businesses to make it sustainable and work. It's fair to say you don't make money purely from launch and you need to diversify activities to draw in revenues. The supply port those launch. So, you know, I'm a big fan of seeing clusters develop around the space business.

Maria Varmazis (15:42)

Yeah. So the, it's, it's been really fascinating here that different clusters have certain areas of expertise. I'm curious if there are any that you're specifically maybe keeping an eye on that you have favorites.

Paul Cremen (15:53)

Well, you know, the UK is very lucky in the sense that it has the second largest manufacturing of cubesats outside of California.

Maria Varmazis (16:02)

Yeah. Yes.

Paul Cremen (16:03)

And I don't think a lot of people know that they do not globally, equally. The UK has, it did maybe until recently the second, maybe the third now largest number of satellites orbiting, you know, outside of. I think China has only just eclipsed the uk. But of course, you know, one way being a UK company means that we have a lot of, of small satellites operating in constellations up in space?

Maria Varmazis (16:36)

Yeah. When you, when you look at the, the growth in the UK space sector in general, what personally is of interest to you right now?

Paul Cremen (16:45)

Well, the area that I work in is launch. So I, you know, I'm very focused, I'm very focused on what we need to deliver, which is one, making sure that UK regulatory and legal framework remains effective, remains competitive internationally with the innovation that's going on around the world. So, you know, we often, we're continually assessing what we need to do to make sure that we're accommodating the industry's needs. And that's a challenge because often industry are way ahead of where regulations often need to be and there is a bit of a catch up that we need to do.

Maria Varmazis (17:33)

But what are you hearing from industry, if you don't mind me asking?

Paul Cremen (17:37)

I think we get a mixed reaction from industry, obviously. Industry. You know, I often think that regulations and the regulator are an easy target sometimes for industry. You know, there are things that we can always do for better, that's for sure. But I do feel that sometimes the criticism leveled at the regulator and regulations is a bit unfair.

Maria Varmazis (18:04)

Sometimes it's a lack of education. Yeah, yeah. Or understanding process. Yeah.

Paul Cremen (18:09)

Particularly for new startups, I think, understanding, you know, and new startups, you know, they often come from an engineering pool or a university.

Maria Varmazis (18:21)

Right.

Paul Cremen (18:22)

And you know, for them, obviously they're very immersed in what they do.

Maria Varmazis (18:27)

Right. The technical solution. Yes.

Paul Cremen (18:29)

Actually to step out and then understand the legal and regulatory framework they are then operating in is sometimes a challenge for them.

Maria Varmazis (18:38)

Sounds like there's definitely some work to be done at least within the industry for better educating and enabling that access.

Paul Cremen (18:46)

And for us too, we need to make sure that our guidance is clear, that people understand it. I think getting a balance between those companies that want a really prescriptive approach to regulation, and some do, compared with others that want scope to be innovative and grow, is getting a challenge and we kind of have to hit both. And that's not always easy.

Maria Varmazis (19:21)

No, I imagine that is extraordinarily difficult. In fact. Well, it is fascinating to be watching all the incredible developments happening in the UK for our industry partners and people who are listening in, who want to work more closely doing launch in the uk. What would be your advice for them?

Paul Cremen (19:39)

So, first of all, UK is a very exciting place to come at the moment. We've got one spaceport online now that's talking to multiple customers. We're expecting our first vertical launch later this year and potentially the second one not far after. We have other options for spaceports that will be coming online in the next two or three years. I think the UK is a great place to come and work. You know, we have great access to polar orbits. We have great access to the European market, which is on our doorstep, as well as the UK market. I think, you know we have some of the most innovative universities in the world. You know, Oxford, Cambridge to name but a couple. And the government is really invested in that growth. I think there are some challenges. You know, the environment in which we operate is very different to the us. It's much more complex. But we are working with our partners to smooth those out.

Maria Varmazis (21:08)

We'll be right back.

Dave Limp (21:15)

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Maria Varmazis (22:37)

Cast your minds back to January 15th of this year. It was the day of the long anticipated launch of not one but two lunar landers and we at T minus are super pumped about the missions and cannot wait for next month's anticipated touchdowns. So we figured it was time to check in with how those missions are doing. So mission number one with Firefly Aerospace. Well they've done a stellar job, pun intended hahaha. Of keeping us updated with the latest on their Blue Ghost mission. And yesterday they shared some glorious images of our blue planet and even one of our Moon. Their blog post titled Goodbye Earth, hello Moon shared the images with information that they captured following Blue Ghost's Trans Lunar injection. And Firefly says that they're now four weeks into the mission and Blue Ghost has downlinked more than 15 gigs of data, including NASA science data from record breaking GNSS signals to magnetic field measurements and Fireflies say that the data is already unlocking insights for the future of space exploration. So go and check out the images by following the link in the show notes. It is seriously giving us all Earthrise vibes. It's amazing imagery and the other mission is ispace's Hakuto R Mission 2 and I Space confirmed on January 22 that the National Central University of Taiwan's payload, the Deep Space Radiation Probe, is receiving telemetry and collecting radiation data as it travels through space. No further updates have been shared on their website since then, and unfortunately there have been no shared images so far. But we continue to wish them well on their mission to the moon. And that's it for T minus for February 13, 2025. Brought to you by N2K CyberWire for additional resources from today's report, check out our show notes@space.n2k.com we're privileged that N2K and podcasts like T Minus are part of the daily routine of many of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector, from the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies. N2K Senior Producer is Alice Carruth. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliott Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Peter Kilpe is our publisher and I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.

Paul Cremen (25:08)

T minus.