D (7:46)

Alice hi Maria. We always include links to the original sources of the stories mentioned throughout the episode in the Selected Reading section of our Show Notes. Today we've added two additional stories. Japan has introduced a new certification for space food specialists and Space Nukes have signed a letter of intent with Deep Space Science to explore how nuclear energy could be used in their future missions.

A (8:09)

Thank you Alice. And a reminder that those links can also be found on our website, space.n2k.com a lot of people are listening to podcasts through YouTube and if that's the way you would prefer to listen to this show, well, good news everyone. T minus Space Daily is indeed on YouTube. We post our episodes there along with video clips from interviews and events throughout the year. So if you're dual screening at work and keep YouTube in the background while your head's down, listen. I get it. I'm not Judging since our YouTube channel is for all of our N2K CyberWire content including T minus 2K Cyber is our company's YouTube channel name. And yes, you'll find the T minus Space Daily playlist there along with all the other shows we make here at N2K. Again, that's 2K Cyber on YouTube.

B (9:20)

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A (10:07)

Our guest today is Mark Wheatley, the founder of Delano Wheatley Consulting. And I started our chat by asking Mark to tell me about how he got involved in the space industry in the United Kingdom.

E (10:21)

I wear a few hats. I'M a local politician in the City of London and I've got two small businesses. One is advisory and recruitment led and then from that business I got working with the, I'll use this term quite loosely but the kind of the umbrella for the UK New Space Economy, the Satellite Applications Catapult, back in 2023 and I found that exhilarating and an exciting experience trying to broadly speaking connect the new space economy in the uk, particularly to that community that I represent politically, the UK financial services and professional services community. I enjoyed that. A key output of that was a paper that went to the Department of Science and I hope anyone with the government hat listening to this will forgive me, but I had a strong suspicion that that paper with some great ideas from financial services professionals was going to go into a bottom drawer at the Department of Science and be forgotten. So I decided to set up an events business in loose terms to create a community connecting the new space economy to the City of London capabilities and see what flowed from that. Defense and security themes are adjacent to space, of course, dual use technologies and just the way I'm wired. I became increasingly aware of threats that others might have seen years ago to sovereign resilience and I felt it was important to broaden beyond space. So for the last few months we've been working on a series called Resilience which is about that kind of whole of society approach to defence and security and trying to really I suppose again galvanize UK financial and professional services, private sector to a public imperative which is I suppose to some extent defense of the ground.

A (12:09)

Excellent. Well Mark, thank you for joining me and thank you for that great tee up about Resilience because that is what we're going to be getting into today. It's a really interesting topic area and given your really fascinating different subsets of professional expertise here, I can't wait to hear your perspective. I was wondering if you could guide me through maybe the top line thesis of the statement you're trying to get across and then we'll just dive into, into the details of that.

E (12:36)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean like a lot of western democracies, the UK has some public finance issues, broadly speaking, you know, taxation has, is a mechanism that's producing dimensioning return. The UK economy is well, stuck a little for borrowing. So you know, borrowing is a mechanism that perhaps the Chancellor of the ship cannot or should not be looking to kind of pull. And yet we face significant challenges to our economy and to our society. Now we've seen accidental and inverted commas, drone attacks or drone incursions into Polish airspace. We've also seen Russian fighters, probably being Estonian airspace, but they regularly, as you would expect, kind of buzz UK airspace and other allies. So we're seeing those kind of threats become apparent. But the way I'd like to frame it is even when we don't see them in the news media, they are. And there are threats apparent in space and in cyber and, you know, in the uk, we've got Olmstone national institution, Marks and Spencer, its website was taken out a few few months ago and, you know, a great cost both to the company and to its balance sheet. So, of course they lost trading income and its reputation suffered. We've had similar attacks on health provision, on local authorities and recently on airports. Now, it might be that those are simply private actors, but there's a strong more than suspicion, there's a strong sense that there are public actors behind those in certain antithetical states, some of our adversaries. So we are being tested, our economy is being hit, our capabilities are being depleted and the public sector can't step up and address all of that. Our government has set an ambition to increase defense spending. But if you look at the figures, it's the medium term, right? In the short term, we are not raising the funds that perhaps we need to. So my sense is we have an urgent challenge. Public funding is not in the moment, and that means there's almost kind of a duty setting itself before the UK financial services and professional services community to step up and an opportunity. Because what the city, like any community of that nature, does really well is it blends risk and opportunity and it enables people to drive capital to where it's needed. And in my humble opinion, it's really needed at the innovative end. The threats are in space and in cyber. Well, that's to some extent where the responses should be.

A (15:22)

Sounds almost like you're proposing an incubator program on that sort of city level. Do I have that sort of idea? Correct.

E (15:29)

Yeah, I mean, I guess our initial activities posted around really two things, and there's a looseness to this, but it's that communities who could align and engage don't always know each other. Now, I've been very surprised in some of the new space work that people who I assume would automatically be connected to others just aren't. I mean, there are a lot of people in the new tech businesses who know each other, but there are breakages that I found quite shocking two years ago. And I think some of those even can be apparent within the public realm, but also between public actors and private ones. So what we're trying to do is really two things. Create a community that cuts across private and public, that cuts across the primes, the big industrial organizations and the innovators and brings in financial services professionals, those who are already active and those who could be. So it's really in some sense it's about getting a community together. Quite loose in the early stages, but working it up, polishing it and then from that community drawing content. Because I'm surprised at the paucity of thinking in some sectors and some circles now to be perfectly clear, that's kind of what I thought in July and I was aware we have Strategic Defense Review. We'd have a national Security strategy. They are very impressive documents. They are really well put together. Our content doesn't go to that level of depth. But what we are is a community that draws, as I say, there's private actors, there's public actors and we're looking at how you can get money into the challenges. We've got a very narrow set in that. We had a working group which Scadden, the leading law firm was pleased to host in mid August and then on the back of that we've created a document with well just over 100 what we call provocations, which they're not proven policy ambitions. These are kind of bullet points to say these are things that can get city resources and capabilities directed to the public imperator and then if it's done well, people will make money from that.

A (17:38)

Absolutely, yeah. I mean these unfortunately defense does cost big money. I was going to say, I imagine it would be considered a more risky prospect to potentially invest in. So is that also a matter of educating potential investors about potential risk and reward there?

E (17:55)

Yeah, I think so. I know. And also great though it is, if you're a VC investor looking at some defense companies and you're chasing that kind of unicorn, that 10 times that is going to make up the ones in your portfolio that don't work. You might look at the defense companies company and think it depends on government contracts. What's the scale of those over here? I mean in the States you've got a much larger market, but what's the scale? What's the dependability of that government contract? And you begin to sort of say, well this isn't ever going to be a 10 times company, therefore I'm out. But if there's structures we can help stimulate that kind of blend, the risk recognizes a public imperative to some extent. We can also look at Dual Use Technologies because it's fissile. But I think some people with space technology have maybe not had the defense capabilities front and center. And some people with defense technology haven't perceived the fact that. Well, fully perceived the fact that their technology becomes more attractive to government actors if it has a commercial angle.

A (18:59)

So where do we go from here? What is the next step?

E (19:03)

Well, I mean, we want to keep refining it. Building the community, refining the content. So we have an event on 29 October, so if any of your listeners are in London, then we'll be gathering about 120 people in the city of London. And anyone who's got a kind of a decent locus in defense, security or financial services is welcome to contact me. And we will aim to register them, being hosted by professionals and we'll have great panelists and contributions. That is the next kind of community building activity. So, I mean, our resilience paper that we prepared a few weeks ago is light. The content we want to create next year is deeper. So we have in mind 12 essays, each of them chunky read. Yeah, kind of a deep read, authored by an expert. So we've got a former lord mayor lined up. The right one. Yeah. Former chief of defence staff. There'll be thoughtful pieces to kind of maybe move from kind of punchy qualification to policy guidance. And then risk of sounding dreadfully unstructured, your plan. We just want to see how that lands and where we go.

A (20:27)

We'll be right back.

B (20:34)

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A (21:38)

Welcome back. Fair warning, hungry listeners. Maybe don't listen to this next story if you are craving McDonald's fries or an Egg McMuffin, but trying to resist that temptation because I'm gonna do nothing to help you out there. In fact, this story is all about McDonald's, Maca, Makudo, Mickey D's. Does anyone still call it that? And how you can be ba da ba ba ba loving it. Specifically loving your very own all expenses paid trip to the Kennedy Space center in Florida. And say hi to the NASA SLS in advance of the Artemis II launch. Apologies right up front for all of our listeners outside of the United States, as apparently this prize is restricted to US residents only. Sorry, I don't make the rules. Anyway, the fast food chain has a visit to see the SLS as one of its prizes for its McDonald's Monopoly game, where when you get food from McDonald's, you essentially have a chance to win Monopoly game pieces that may reward prizes. And and like in the board game, which is either beloved or despised or both at the same time, you need a bunch of those winning pieces to win big. Yeah, listen, I'm not going to do the marketing for a giant fast food chain. You can look it up for yourself if you aren't familiar with how it all works. Apparently the VIP visit and tour of the Kennedy Visitor center to see the SLS is a major prize win worth over 9,000 bucks. And the SLS is even on the McDonald's bags. Huh. Guess it's good PR for Artemis too. Well, anyway, good luck to everyone who's gunning for that prize. Here's hoping the ongoing US Government shutdown doesn't cause any Big Mac delays. And that is T minus. Brought to you by N2K CyberWire we'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you of a sense step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to space2k.com we're proud that N2K CyberWire is part of the daily routine of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector. From the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies, N2K helps space and cyber security professionals grow, learn and stay informed. As the nexus for discovery and connection, we bring you the people, the technology and the ideas shaping the future of secure innovation. Learn how@n2k.com N2K's senior producer is Alice Caroufs. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We are mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Peter Kilpie is our publisher and I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thank you for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.

E (24:25)

T minus.

C (24:38)

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E (25:04)

By Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates.

C (25:05)

Excludes Massachusetts.