Dr. Dorit D'Onoviel (11:17)

Foreign.

Maria Varmazes (11:26)

That is it for today's Intel Briefing for you. We've got lots more reading for you in our show notes which you can always find in your podcast app or on our website, which is space.n2k.com hey t/ crew. If you are just joining us, be sure to follow T minus Space daily in your favorite podcast app. Also, please do us a favor. Share the intel with your friends and coworkers. Here's a little challenge for you. By Friday, please show three friends or coworkers this podcast. A growing audience is the most important thing for us and we would love your help as part of the T minus crew. So if you find T minus useful, please share so other professionals like you can find the show. Thank you so much for your support. It means a lot to me.

Dave (12:28)

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Maria Varmazes (13:43)

For today's chat, we're running the first part of my conversation with Dr. Dorit D'. Inovial. She is the executive director of the Translational Research Institute for Space Health, and she joined me to tell me more about her work, including experiments with Axiom space to the International Space Station.

Dr. Dorit D'Onoviel (14:04)

I am a associate professor at Baylor College of Medicine in the center for Space Medicine, but I also have an appointment in the Department of Biochemistry and Pharmaceutical Biology. And how I ended up doing space health is one of these funny things that happens to you. And I say this to a lot of young people. You just never know when an opportunity comes up. You've never imagined you would end up where you are. And yet it opens up a world that you are just, like, so happy in. And it's just a perfect fit. And it is the most amazing field to be in because for me, I grew up watching Star Trek. It got me thinking about what's out there and just really being curious about the world. But I actually, my first love wasn't so much space, but it was biology and just the amazing ability of living things to adapt to an environment. So I'm a scuba diver, too, and I'll go down and I'll look at this, like, world into there and how the creatures that evolve down there just are perfectly adapted to their environment. And us as human beings, we're adapted to this environment. And animals adapt to their own environment. And then when there's a massive change in the environment, we adapt to that as well. And so to me, spaceflight is so amazing because it's, it's a unique environment. It has all these stressors on living things, but yet we are so miraculous that we adapt to it. And, for example, we lose bone because we don't need bone in space. It's zero G. That makes perfect sense. And so, you know, the only problem with losing bone in space is when you come back to Earth and you need it again to fluctuate in space, it would be fine to lose bone Right. When you think about life and its adaptation in the environment, to me there's no better place to study our own biology and how our body functions. I just think about how miraculous it is that we can live and survive in a hostile environment through engineering and our own ingenuity. I have the distinct honor of leading a NASA funded consortium of Baylor College of Medicine here in Houston with institutions on the east coast and west coast, so MIT and Caltech. So we have scientists that are working on essentially all three coasts, East Coast, West Coast, Gulf coast. And our job is to partner with NASA and look and see where they are not having the reach into the innovation communities that they need to solve the big challenges of keeping humans healthy. Healthy not just in low Earth orbit, but on a Mars mission, which is a whole different level.

Maria Varmazes (16:55)

Thank you for that wonderful introduction. I love how many of us got inspired by all the different iterations of Star Trek and this job that comes up so often. I'm a Trekkie too, so I just love that. Just makes me so happy. I think when I talk to people who are not really familiar with space in general and they hear what's going on in the news about going to Mars and such, I often tell them maybe we've got the rocket side of things, more or less maybe figured. But the human biology side, the human machine, there's so much we still don't know. So I'm always fascinated talking to experts like yourself about the kind of research that we're doing and what we're still learning. Because the human machine, truly as adaptable as it is, there's so many mysteries there. And I love that also you're a scuba diver because that also I often hear that about our ocean world and space having many interesting parallels. That's so many cool parallels in what you said. I just love that. So thank you. I got all my neurons firing on that one. The acronym is trish, right? If I remember correctly. Tell me a bit about that.

Dr. Dorit D'Onoviel (17:57)

TRISH stands for Translational Research, Institute for Space Health and Translational Research. It's taking understandings, fundamental understandings, and turning it into an operational, impactful decision. And actually I looked at one of your previous podcast just a couple days ago you released Turning Data into Decision. That's translation. That's translation. That's taking a fundamental piece of information and actually making it actionable. That's our job. I'm working for an operational organization where they actually have to take the insights that we make about the human body and translated into how to keep people healthy and safe and performing at their best. And that's very tricky. A lot of people haven't been able to do that. You could collect all the data in the world, but if it's not eventually going to translate into, okay, here is how we take care of this person so that they perform better, or they're able to do what they need to do, or we don't have to scrub the CO2 quite as much, or they can have less protein or more protein, or they should exercise longer. If we don't translate that into real operational decisions, then data is not worth anything. So to me, the translational piece is critical and it depends on a couple things. We have been keeping people healthy in low Earth orbit for a really long time. We know how to do it. However, Naosa has done a lot of screening of people before they go. And if you have a major health condition, you know they're going to limit your exposure. They might even limit you from going to space. And so the reason we have kept people healthy for so long, one of which is, number one, we've screened out a lot of bad things. The stressors of spaceflight are such that you need to get your body in best shape as possible possible. Now, with opening up the low Earth orbit to everybody, which I love that with AX4, it's the fourth private mission going up, you're going to start to send people who have different medical conditions and so how their body responds to space is a little bit different than a NASA astronaut. So we're learning about how the body adapts in this space environment. A body that is maybe a little different than the previous bodies that have gone to space. That's what's so exciting about these Axiom missions, is that we get to look at the variety of humans. And to me, in biology, you learn more things at the extremes. When you look at the extremes, where people are actually putting their bodies at an extreme situation, that's when you learn a lot more about the physiology.

Maria Varmazes (20:54)

Huh? Yeah, I could, because I can see historically we wanted to sort of eliminate as many variables as possible on the human side of things. Get the. I think most of us are like, yeah, we not. Very few of us are perfect NASA specimens. So how is this going to work? So you are one of the people working on that. This is how that's going to work. We're going to figure that out. Fascinating problem to be to untangle. And so where does one even start with this?

Dr. Dorit D'Onoviel (21:18)

Right. The thing that we worry about most on, like for example, the Axiom mission, is Space motion sickness. Even astronauts who have been to space multiple times do get space motion sickness. This is what's so useful about these short duration crews that are non NASA astronauts. Because we get, we do what's called increasing the N. We're looking at more humans, more variety of humans.

Maria Varmazes (21:41)

The N as in the sample size?

Dr. Dorit D'Onoviel (21:43)

The sample size, that's right, the N. Thank you for helping me clarify that.

Maria Varmazes (21:47)

I'm remembering N from.

Dr. Dorit D'Onoviel (21:49)

Yeah, definitely old statistics, statistics back in your biology days. But we could look to see how people respond to space motion. Sick. So that's actually one of the studies that we're doing on the Axiom 4 flight. Along with all the previous private missions that have gone up, we've now collected, gosh, over 40 data sets from 40 individuals who have gone on different private missions in our database. So what we're looking for is can we predict who's going to be sick? Here's why. If you're a NASA astronaut, you can be trained, but you still get sick. And the way NASA treats is they give you medication. The problem, I don't know if you've ever taken medication for motion sickness makes you groggy. They have to take a fairly high dose to overcome the space motion sickness, which means they're not going to be at their peak performance to do a critical activity. Why are we worried about this? If we're going back to the moon and an astronaut is experiencing the change in the gravitational forces with the misalignment in their sensory system and feeling nauseous, for example, and they have to perform. They can't just sit around and hope.

Maria Varmazes (23:02)

That they wait for it to feel better. Right?

Dr. Dorit D'Onoviel (23:04)

Yeah. Or, or, or they're having to medicate themselves to a point where they're, they're not able to perform at their peak because they're groggy. And that's a problem for operations. So me as an operationally focused researcher, what we did with the Axiom crew, for example, is we're testing different ways to predict. The reason that prediction is important, number one. We can then set up the schedule. Okay, if we know you're going to be sick, but this guy's going to be okay. This is the guy that's going to do the robotic operation or the landing, and this is the guy. Even though he's the pilot, he's likely to get sick. Sick. So we are going to give him a day or two before his stuff starts to kick in. So that's the operational relevance. Another experiment that we're doing that is really quite Interesting, even for Earth applications, is there's a condition called spaceflight associated neuro ocular syndrome. SANS for short. What happens is if you spend time in zero gravity, you have a fluid shift that occurs. Just fluids get redistributed. Right now, like you're feeling all the forces with gravity and everything gets kind of pulled down towards your leg. You go into space, everything just kind of gets redistributed. And what we're finding is that a majority of astronauts start to have almost an edema in the head. And what we've seen is that it affects the back of the eye. And we think that there's actually an increase in the pressure on the brain called intracranial pressure. We know on Earth, if patients have increase in intracranial pressure, pressure on the brain, that can actually lead to some severe problems. We think that over a long period of time, if you have increased pressure on the brain and increased pressure on the eyes, we know that that can lead to loss of peripheral vision. We do see changes in vision in astronauts, which can be corrected with glasses. So now we've been studying this in astronauts. They've been up there for four months, six months, up to a year. They are developing this syndrome. Okay. But nobody's been up there longer than 14 months was the longest. So when we're thinking about a mission to Mars, a long stay in space, we do worry about what are the long term effects. So with these short flights, we're actually looking at the changes in the eyes in these private individuals on the Axiom missions going into space. And we're seeing how the short exposure to space is actually changing the physiology and the anatomy to start to really tease out the early phases of adaptation to this different system. Because I get to see the early phases and I'm looking for what we call biomarkers, so signatures of a condition that may be developing over time in an astronaut, but I'm only seeing it much later. What's interesting about the opportunity with all these people going to space. Let's look at the blood flow in all these people. And let's see what's different between somebody who does develop that condition versus somebody who doesn't. And the more people we have to study, the better we're going to get at getting those early indicators.

Maria Varmazes (26:21)

That's fascinating. Oh, so, yes, definitely increasing that sample size. That makes a lot of sense. And that is just part one of my chat with Dr. Dorit D'. Onoviel. There's a lot more to this conversation that we didn't want you to miss so we will be running the second part next week. Keep an ear out for that.

Dr. Dorit D'Onoviel (26:44)

Foreign.

Maria Varmazes (26:49)

We'Ll be right back.

Dave (26:55)

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Maria Varmazes (27:48)

Welcome back for our final story, I'm leaning a bit hard into my science fiction nerd side here today to implore you to read a comic book about space debris. Yes, please run, do not walk to your local bookstore and please place a pre order for the outstanding science fiction comic book called Planetess. It's written like the word planets but with an e added before the s. Planetess. The original comic book by Makoto Yukimura was published in Japan between 1999 and 2004 and won all sorts of awards for excellence in science fiction and it is being re released in English translation in a deluxe two book edition this year through Dark Horse Comics. My pitch for the story about Plenitus is it takes place in 2075, a near future world of blue collar workers collecting space junk. Commercial space travel is real in this world, and so is the risk of space junk causing deadly collisions. And the characters in the story are a real ramshackle bunch from all over the world, all of whom have their own dreams of space exploration. But it all collides with their day jobs, the really unglamorous work of cleaning up humanity's orbital mess. Now the comic book is beautifully drawn and was meticulously researched and it is frankly kind of a prophetic read. Nowadays. Private commercial space missions point to point commercial space travel, geopolitical tensions playing out in space, land grabs for helium 3 Kessler syndrome. These were not terms often heard around Y2K and yet these are core components of this story. I cannot recommend Planet Test highly enough for the science fiction enjoyer in your life. Highly, highly recommend. And that's T minus brought to you by N2K CyberWire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to spacentk.com we're proud that N2K CyberWire is part of the daily routine of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector. From the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies, N2K helps space and cybersecurity professionals grow, learn and stay informed. As the nexus for discovery and connection, we bring you the people, the technology and the ideas shaping the future of secure innovation. Learn how@n2k.com N2K's senior producer is Alice Carruth. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliot Heltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Heltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Peter Kilby is our publisher and I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.

Dr. Dorit D'Onoviel (30:59)

T minus.

Dave (31:14)

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