B (9:30)

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C (9:55)

This episode is brought to you by Indeed. When your computer breaks, you don't wait for it to magically start working again. You fixed the problem, so why wait to hire the people your company desperately needs? Use Indeed Sponsored jobs to hire top talent fast and even better, you only pay for results. There's no need to wait. Speed up your hiring with a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply.

A (10:27)

Today's guest is Brandon Karp, friend of the show. My former boss, founder of T Minus Space Daily, and cybersecurity expert Brandon decided to do a Stump the Host play for this month's Space and Cybersecurity segment.

C (10:42)

I'm going to try to convince you and all of your listeners that these three seemingly unrelated articles having to do with the space industry from the last 10 days will represent a massive shift of wealth from Singapore to Greenland in the next 10 years.

A (10:59)

Okay, listeners, I just want you to know that is also all I know. I know nothing behind the scenes here. So what articles are we talking about? Brandon? Let's start there.

C (11:07)

All right, cool. So I'll start with the headlines from these articles. Voyager Technologies makes investment into AI software company Latent AI ksat, which is Kongsberg Satellite Services, plans to take its ground network to space with hypersatellites and Leo Elyria reports milestones with tight beam laser communications.

A (11:31)

Okay, so Voyager Tech investment in Latent AI KSAT plans ground network with hypersatellites in Leo and Elyria's milestones with tight beam laser comms. Okay, I'm stumped. Aside from these are all headlines I know that we have covered on T Minus Space Daily. I have absolutely no idea what else would be the common thread here. So regale me Brandon, because I'm so.

C (11:53)

What is the common thread between these three things which are seemingly unrelated and all from the last 10 days? Yes, and my argument is that these developments, which are really just representative of a number of developments over the last few years, represents meaningful steps towards moving core Internet backbone traffic from terrestrial fiber lines to space based architectures.

A (12:20)

Introduce me to where and how Singapore and Greenland come into play here on that thesis.

C (12:25)

We'll get there. Let's start with the technology developments themselves. In my mind, this idea of shifting core Internet backbone traffic from terrestrial fiber lines to space based architectures really requires developments in three core technology Areas, the first being orbital data centers, data centers in space being able to process data in situ in low Earth orbit. Second is actually moving meaningful software technologies. And that's going to come with investments in edge AI, because edge AI is really just driving increased compute power. With that increased compute power investment, which we're trying to send to low Earth orbit, which we've seen with this Voyager Technologies investment is going to have to come developments in mostly like heat transfer technologies and power generation technologies, because both Those systems, the GPUs, the CPUs, generate tremendous amounts of heat and require require tremendous amounts of power. And so Voyager's investments in these types of companies, and there's a number of others as well, will drive rapid changes and investment in creation of heat transfer technologies and power generation technologies in space. Now, the third area that is required to move meaningful amounts of Internet traffic from terrestrial systems to space systems is high speed optical laser communications. That is the most critical enabling technology.

A (13:48)

Okay, I'm starting to see this thread up here and I'm just thinking, okay, I can think of recent missions for a lot of these. Like there's a mission going to the ISS just recently about orbital data centers, which I was really amped about.

C (14:00)

And I'm glad you brought up the ISS testbed as well, because that's a partnership between Axiom Space and Red Hat, Red Hat being the massive Linux foundation organization. And I didn't choose that one because that was originally announced a few months ago. And I wanted to pick things that were just announced in the last 10 days. But you're right, that is going up like this week or something like that.

A (14:21)

Yeah, as of the time of this recording.

C (14:23)

And that test case is orbital data centers being tested. It's a partnership between Axiom and Red Hat and being tested on the iss. And so that's already going to introduce new power generation systems, heat transfer systems, et cetera, for processing data in situ in space.

A (14:40)

All right, so we're talking about the, we have in place in movement the required technologies for the core Internet backbone traffic to go from terrestrial to space based. I'm working backwards, obviously. That will represent a whole bunch of interesting cybersecurity challenges, I would imagine, but I'm sure you'll get to that at some point. Most definitely. So can I ask about the Singapore Greenland thing yet? Are we still not there yet?

C (15:05)

Because we're still not there yet. We're going to get there. You know, oftentimes when folks talk about moving Internet core backbone Internet traffic from terrestrial fiber lines to space, people Bring up the issue of throughput, right? We just can't push enough data to make it worthwhile to shift transmissions from the core undersea fiber lines. And that's massive, massive, massive fiber lines. Massive, massive undersea fiber lines. We're talking about terabits per second, terabits and terabits per second over those massive fiber lines to a space based architecture. However, developments in processing in space as well as laser communications, which Illyria is investing in, is getting us actually quite close to terabit per second transmissions. And just this year, a group out of China successfully demonstrated 400 gigabits per second. And Elyria has plans and designs of getting up to 1 terabyte of data per second across a single optical link. And so Elyria's recent milestones, just from the other week, demonstrated that they're making meaningful steps. And just in the last six, seven years, we've had a thousand x increase in the amount of data we can push over optical lengths. That type of acceleration is going to get us to meaningful terabits per second across optical lengths within the next few years. That is going to represent enough throughput to start shifting Internet traffic from terrestrial fiber cables to space based architectures.

A (16:37)

And then also edge AI coming into play here where, especially for space based applications where, you know, you don't have to necessarily use all that throughput because a lot of the processing is done on edge, that's not going to necessarily be relevant for all applications, certainly. But when we're talking about things that are requiring tons and tons of compute, if you can do it in space, instead of being like shipping the data back and forth over and over, that's a big efficiency, right?

C (17:02)

Exactly. Big efficiencies gained more flexibility. Right. You're no longer requiring to send data through these terrestrial systems. You're no longer worried about the fiber lines getting cut by anchor chains of illicit fishing vessels. It's also more flexible in terms of failover and shifting aggregate capacity onto different lengths. And more importantly, on top of all of that, when you think about these constellations of thousands of satellites, you'll have access to more than one optical link. You could have access to numerous terabit optical links at a single time. If you have ready access to a meaningful ground station for that type of communication.

A (17:45)

Okay, you know a question I want to ask now. Are we there yet?

C (17:49)

Okay, I think we're close enough. I think we're there. Singapore is just an illustrative example of areas of centralized communications around the world. There are many of these Djibouti is one of them, Egypt is another. The US west coast, even Brazil has some centralized areas where it was convenient to drive all of the fiber lines to one centralized processing region. These actually typically mirrored traditional maritime shipping lanes. Basically, what is the fastest way to get from point A to point B across the ocean? Well, that's where we also ended up laying fiber lines. We don't need those maritime shipping lanes anymore for space based architectures. And so where can you get the most efficient communications from space to ground? Where is the least amount of interference? Where is the least expensive real estate for ground stations for these optical links in these proliferated low earth satellite architectures? More polar regions, not the equatorial regions. I think that what we're going to see as these technologies develop and as you see Kongsberg investing in these optical ground stations and actually deploying ground station type services in space as well, is an increase in investment in physical real estate in the polar region. So anyone with Arctic or Antarctic access. So that could be Chile, that could be Norway. I used Greenland because I thought it was funny to compare Greenland to Singapore. But yep, as, as investment shifts, you're going to see more and more technology companies, communications companies, etcetera, Starting to invest in those regions as they can start getting core Internet access through polar based ground stations.

A (19:37)

Hmm. So fascinating geopolitical implications of this, certainly, that I know we've been seeing in the news in the last year, most certainly.

C (19:46)

And a lot of folks maybe were laughing at the Trump administration for their potentially interest in taking over Greenland, but there actually might be some strategic reasons for Western nations to build closer relationships with those regions of the world.

A (20:02)

Yeah, that kind of is starting to make a little sense now. We've barely touched on the cybersecurity implications of all this, which I'm sure could take another hour if we wanted to get into that. Certainly if you can do it in like three minutes, if that's even possible. What are we looking at for maybe a thesis on what this could mean for cybersecurity implications?

C (20:21)

Yeah, there are a few. And first I'll just talk about infrastructure. Right. When you have a ground station, you don't want to transmit data over a long distance. So those regions will probably also see an increased investment in data centers and terrestrial systems like that, in Internet service providers and telecom providers being in those regions. As that architecture continues to grow, that'll of course shift investment out of the traditional regions of centralization for those things such as Singapore. That'll create some economic stress, of course, not necessarily directly related to cybersecurity. However it is relevant. What I will say though is that the use of optical transmissions introduces a number of great security features. It is a tight beam type of communication, so it is much more difficult to snoop and spoof a laser based communication. So in terms of the transport architecture itself, there's more security just by the nature of using an optical link. Optical links can process faster, so more heavy forms of encryption and cryptography can be used. So that can increase the security posture as well. There's also ways of multiplexing signals across an optical link that could make your signal much more difficult to detect and intercept as well. However, I would also say though, some of these regions that we're talking about, the Norways of the world, the Greenlands of the world, et cetera, are going to need, if my thesis comes to pass in the next 10 years, are going to need more investment in security of their digital ecosystem. You don't typically hear about those nations when it comes to cybersecurity, when it comes to having folks on the ground and security services and security forces in those regions actually defending that infrastructure, that critical infrastructure. And so it would be great to see those nations ahead of time starting to work with the us, with the uk, et cetera, on critical infrastructure protection and how we can secure the physical assets for the digital ecosystem.

A (22:23)

Oh, there's so blue teamers. There's a bunch of job openings coming in some countries that you may not have expected in the future. So I really enjoyed this version of Stump the Host. You took me on a journey and I appreciate that very much. Honestly, it's a really fascinating idea. I think you are onto something legitimately. So thanks for this really great idea. Appreciate it.

C (22:42)

Yeah, it was absolutely my pleasure. Maria.

A (22:59)

We'Ll be right back.

C (23:03)

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

A (23:05)

Now I was looking for fun ways.

C (23:06)

To tell you that Mint's offer of.

A (23:08)

Unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.

C (23:12)

So I thought it would be fun.

A (23:14)

If we made $15 bills but it.

C (23:16)

Turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

A (23:22)

Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com welcome back. Late breaking news now folks. I know this one isn't the most earth shattering revelation, but for some of us it's darn important. Listen close. Now NASA says we officially have our top 25 finalists in the running for the Artemis 2 official zero G indicator. People run, do not walk to NASA.gov and check out the August 22 blog post titled NASA shares final contenders for Artemis 2 moon mascot design Contest. And scroll a tiny bit down to where you can see those finalists sent in from creative folks all over the world and just enjoy honestly, because oh my goodness, they are so stinking cute. And NASA had to pour through over 2,600 entries from over 50 nations to get to this top 25 list. It's a tough job, but someone's gotta do it right. And remember, whoever wins this contest will be on the Artemis 2 mission. Going to space, going around the moon, keeping the crew company, giving them their first heads up that they truly aren't at 1G anymore. It's quite an honor for a stuffy. As for the top 25 for a moon mission, unsurprisingly, several entries were either rabbit related or Luna Moth related. And there is one adorable goddess, Artemis facsimile, complete with her bow and arrows. Of course they're all soft and I guess I shouldn't be surprised that one entry from Maryland is crab related with a lunar crust. Asian unknown if it will smell like Old Bay. And no matter who the final winner is, I think I will still need my own Rise mascot sent in by Lucas Ye of Mountain View, California because it is a mascot version of the iconic Earthrise photo. It is a super clever design, I know. How in the heck would that work? Oh my friends, it just does. Go check it out and all of the entries and pick your winner. The final decision, though appropriately belongs solely to the Artemis 2 crew. So NASA astronauts Reid Wiseman, Victor Glover and Christina Koch, and Canadian Space Agency astronaut Jeremy Hansen, they get to pick out the winner, so I cannot wait to see what they choose. And that is T minus. Brought to you by N2K CyberWire we would love to know what you think of our podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. If you like the show, please share a rating and review in your podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to space2k.com we're proud that N2K CyberWire is part of the daily routine of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector. From the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies, N2K helps space and cybersecurity professionals grow, learn and stay informed. As the nexus for discovery and connection, we bring you the people, the technology and the ideas shaping the future of secure innovation. Learn how@n2k.com N2K Senior Producer is Alice Carruthers. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We are mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Peter Kilpe is our publisher and I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.