Liz Stokes (7:07)

Maria we have an update from Doge on NASA's progress on cuts to its budget, some stories out of China on their latest spacewalk, and a discovery from Chang'e's mission to date the moon's oldest crater. And NASA has selected Spirit's PNT simulation solution to support their lunar navigation program.

Maria Varmazes (7:25)

Those stories can be found in the Selected Reading section of our show. Notes from whatever platform you listen to us on and where else.

Liz Stokes (7:31)

Alice on our website, Maria space.n2k.com just click on this episode title and scroll down to the Selected Reading section on the page.

Maria Varmazes (7:41)

Thank you Alice for that update. Hey T Minus crew. If you are just joining us, be sure to follow T minus Space daily in your favorite podcast app. Also, if you could do us a favor, share the intel with your friends and coworkers. A little challenge for you by Friday. Please show three friends or coworkers this podcast. A growing audience is the most important thing for us and we would love your help as part of the T Minus crew. If you find T Minus useful, please share so other professionals like you can find the show. Thank you so much everybody. It means a lot to me and all of us here at T minus.

Mark Sassen (8:34)

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Maria Varmazes (9:24)

Our guest today is Mark Sassen, co founder of Pinpoint Search Group and I started off by asking Mark about the work that he does in recruitment.

Alice Carruth (9:36)

I am a recruiter in the cyber security market, Managing Partner at Pinpoint Search Group. I started in cyber security in the 2014 time frame when I saw previously data storage, data center infrastructure where we were working it was consolidating was going to be less opportunity saw a potential explosion for cybersecurity. What I thought was going to be an explosion anyway and I said let's start a practice. So we did that at my previous employer. We did quite well, acquired that practice and turned it into Pinpoint search group in 2018.

Maria Varmazes (10:11)

That's fantastic. And for our listeners On T minus who are wondering, why am I talking to a person who works in cybersecurity for a space show? I promise you there's a very good reason because Mark has a really interesting story to tell about that. So I don't want to give too much away because I'd love for you to tell us a bit more about it, Mark, but there is a. There is a strong tie between cybersecurity and space. That an argument that you're making. I'd love to hear more about that.

Alice Carruth (10:35)

Yeah, absolutely. So just as I referenced, you see opportunities presented in front of you and it's all about whether you're going to take action to exploit that opportunity for your benefit. And so I read an article in September of 2023 regarding the just absolute growth, explosion of growth in this. In the satellite sphere. Right. In terms of 50% of satellites being launched in the past three years. At the time saw Morgan Stanley's predictions on what the industry was going to be worth. And I said, I got to look into this a little more. I'm wondering how many companies are competing in this space. Maybe in a few years we'll expand our business into the space sector as well. Because I did see some of that parallel from how cybersecurity evolved and evolved quickly based on need. And when I looked into the amount of space companies that existed at that moment in time, I knew it was time to go already. So we spent 2024 researching the industry, separating companies into different segments, really learning about it, and made it Official in early 2025. Entering the space. Just got back from Satcho. Couldn't be more thrilled about the investment we're making into this section of the market.

Maria Varmazes (11:54)

Yeah, I would love to hear more about those parallels like opportunities, differences, that kind of thing, because I live in that world of thinking about how cybersecurity is extremely different from space. But there are some really interesting similarities too. And you've been in that world and you've been really immersed in that. So I would love to get your thoughts on. Maybe we'll start with what are the similarities that you've seen in the challenges in both industries?

Alice Carruth (12:19)

Yeah, well, I think what's really important to consider up front from a first principle standpoint, if you will, is what's driving the growth of the industry. You know, with cybersecurity, technology was advancing. Cyberspace became a significant sphere of influence and competition to dominate cybersecurity. That created a necessary necessity to secure it from adversarial attacks. And so that applied to Both national security and business security. And so anytime there's demand like that, you're going to have investors and talented founders take advantage of that opportunity. And that is exactly what we're seeing in terms of space. Great power. Competition is driving some of that. Technology is enabling better access. And so nation states are going to compete for dominance. They're involving the private sectors in their respective countries. And those private sectors, the way I see it, are seeing a military aspect to it right now, but they are also looking forward to what business solutions are available there. And so there's going to be so much investment. And that's what's really drawn me to this industry, is seeing those similarities in growth. And so obviously when you're at a show, like sat show, and you have an opportunity to talk to investors and understand, okay, what are you looking at? Are your portfolio companies growing? And they're like, yeah, they're going like crazy. Identifying talent is difficult. Competing for the talent, bringing them into those locations where on site talents can exist, that is an absolute issue that needs to be addressed. And I think you could probably learn some lessons from cybersecurity. Not everything's going to be the same, but you take practical methodologies and concepts and you apply it to this new industry.

Maria Varmazes (14:11)

Yeah, I would love to hear more about that because that is truly the workforce shortage in space is the conversation, I mean, no matter what conversation I'm having with someone about completely something else that comes up inevitably. So what can space learn from how cybersecurity has been working through that challenge?

Alice Carruth (14:32)

You know, I think just recruiting from adjacent industries, adjacent talent pools is going to really be critical to helping solve that short term talent crunch. Eventually you're going to start seeing some internal growth. This is going to be homegrown, just like we're seeing with cybersecurity. It's not as big of a topic as it was maybe five years ago because we have a lot of different companies, a lot of different people that have been moving around, creating its own self sustaining industry. But when you talk about space, what's so different is the type of talent you need. And that's really exciting, right? In the sense that you'll need thermal engineers and you'll need blue collar welders to come in and add value to these organizations. And so finding those people in and of themselves might not be the most difficult thing. The difficult thing is identifying the people with the right mindset. So you know, welders, they, they might be really good at what they do, but are they ready to Jump into a scenario where everything that they put together from a metal standpoint is going to be absolutely critical. Right. There's, there's just going to be a different mindset that you need to secure in identifying those people. And shameless plug, that's where recruitment is going to be critical here is having those more in depth conversations as the interview processes progress, really understanding are these professionals that we're reaching out to from these adjacent industries, are they ready to join into what's going to be a very challenging situation going into startup space company or an established company that has high demand?

Maria Varmazes (16:14)

Yeah, that sounds almost like a cultural challenge. And I mean every industry has their own and space. Space has been sort of a tough nut to crack on that one. Not saying that space's culture has to change, but it has a very distinctive set of challenges there. I'm curious, as you were learning about it, what your sort of read on the space culture is for bringing new people in?

Alice Carruth (16:38)

Well, I think that the read on the culture is going to be based on the type of organization that you're running. Right. So bringing people from large systems integrators like Boeing for example, that have been working in the large systems integrator community for a long time, that might not be the same cultural fit that a startup that's going to have to be extremely savvy work with limited resources in the space industry is going to require. And so you might have the skills on paper to accomplish the goals of a particular set of space companies, but operating in these different environments can be extremely challenging. I've seen it again going back to cyber security where people say, I want to do a startup. It's like, well, you've been at IBM or Cisco for 25 years and no offense to those who have made great careers at those companies, but they go in, they try it. And a lot of times I have conversations saying, yeah, I need to go into a little bit of a bigger environment. And so being able to identify the people with the right metal for a particular company and particular stage of its life cycle is going to be really important.

Maria Varmazes (17:50)

That's a very fair point. I'm curious if there is a profile for success that you anticipate for people joining or laterally moving or moving up within the space industry. This is what you really need to succeed.

Alice Carruth (18:05)

It's going to seem a little cliche, but I'll say it. It's grit being able to deal with more failure than success. The successes will be bigger, right? They'll make up for all that failure but understanding that things aren't going to go as planned. And I think that applies even more substantially more to space than it does to cybersecurity. And cybersecurity is an extremely challenging field, but space is on a whole nother level. Wanting to learn, willingness to learn, willingness to be adaptable, willingness to, again another cliche, wear many hats, do what it takes to make it happen. As opposed to, you know, a 9 to 5 job where you submit your forms, you do some work every day and then you go home because there's going to be redundancy and, and an institution backing you up. So that startup mentality, that startup culture associated with grit, from what I saw at SAT show, with all the smaller companies looking to evolve, that that's what I see a challenge going to be.

Maria Varmazes (19:07)

That's a, that's a great point. And I guess to flip the question around for employers who are looking at the, the talent pool, especially given the challenges that we've talked about, you know, who maybe need to change their tactics and strategy a little bit. What, what are you telling them?

Alice Carruth (19:24)

Yeah, what I would tell them is, is don't just focus on the resume component of recruitment, right? You, you can get applicants, you can get resumes. But a large part of recruiting, especially in a small organization, requires a good liaison, whether that's an internal liaison or an external recruiter like us, to have somewhat of a broker relationship between the employers and the candidates that they're interviewing. And what I mean by that is that you can qualify somebody up front for, from a resume standpoint, qualify that they're, that they should be considered for some interviews. But if you're not thinking about continuously qualifying after interview 1 and 2 and 3, hey, what's changed in your perspective on this opportunity? What's exciting to you? What questions do you have? That's a great way to validate continuously that these are going to be good candidates for your particular company and environment. And that's lost a lot of times. It's pretty critical, especially for the earlier stage companies, that when they make a hire that it's right. Because going back and doing it again is going to be a huge waste of time and resources.

Maria Varmazes (20:54)

I'll be right back.

Mark Sassen (21:01)

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Maria Varmazes (21:54)

Welcome back. Nothing we love so much here on T Minus, a primarily audio only podcast, than telling you about gorgeous images that I then get to describe to you. But roll with me here. I'll do my best for you today. Not with one, but two images that are worth taking a look at when you have a moment to peruse our show notes space.n2k.com the first image is a rather spectacular specimen of a SpaceX Falcon 9 fuel spiral seen last night in the skies over the UK and continental Europe. When the second stage of a Falcon 9 dumps its remaining fuel high up in the atmosphere, that fuel freezes in a spiral pattern high up in the sky. It is quite a sight, and this phenomenon is well loved by launch photographers, but not as well known by the public just yet. So when this spiral appears, it understandably causes quite a commotion that, you know, perhaps we're having some otherworldly visitors making an entrance. But no, it's just a satellite's ride to orbit making its exit. And last night's fuel spiral from SpaceX's NROL 69 mission launch seen over the UK and Europe, was a particularly photogenic specimen of the phenomenon, so it is worth taking a look. The second image I'm encouraging you to look at when you've got a chance comes from much farther away, about 630 light years or so in fact, courtesy of Webb's Nircam and Miri instruments. This one's a cosmic tornado, in other words, a protostellar outflow from a nearby star that's forming, and it's called a Herbig Haro object. And this one's Herbig Haro 4950, and from Webb's viewpoint, it juxtaposes a much more distant spiral galaxy right at the tippity top of the tornado. It's a happy accident, if you will, but it makes for a truly spectacular image. So if you're looking for a new desktop or phone background image, space nerds, this is a great candidate.

Alice Carruth (23:55)

Foreign.

Maria Varmazes (23:59)

That'S it for T minus for March 25, 2025, brought to you by N2K CyberWire. For additional resources from today's report, check out our show notes@space.n2k.com we're privileged that N2K and podcasts like T Minus are part of the daily routine of many of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector, from the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies. N2K Senior Producer is Alice Carruth. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ivan. Peter Kilpe is our publisher and I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.

Mark Sassen (24:49)

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