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T-Minus: Space-Cyber Briefing
T-Minus Overview- The future of female explorers.
00:28:21
Welcome to the T-Minus Overview Radio Show featuring conversations with experts from the space industry.
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Host
You're listening to the N2K space network.
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Maria Varmazes
In lieu of our regular daily briefing on this July 4th, we are celebrating US Independence Day and taking the day off. So please enjoy this encore presentation of T Minus Overview.
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Dave
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Maria Varmazes
I'm Maria Varmazes, host of the T Minus Space Daily Podcast and you're listening to T Minus Overview.
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Megan Christian
T Minus.
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Maria Varmazes
In this program, we'll feature some of the conversations from our daily podcast with the people who are forging the path in the new space era. From industry leaders, technology experts and pioneers to educators, policymakers, researchers and more. The United Nations Office for Outer Space affairs has released a study on gender equality in the space sector, and the key findings found that women make up only 30% of public sector space organizations and that they are particularly underrepresented in technical, astronaut and policy roles. Well, we spoke to two female astronauts about what attracted them to the space industry. Our first guest is Megan Christian, European Space Agency astronaut Reserve and Commercial Exploration Lead at the UK Space Agency. And I started by asking Megan about how she got into her role at esa.
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Megan Christian
When the announcement came out that they were going to have another round of selections, there was no thinking about it. I was absolutely going to apply, but all the thinking, I guess came a long time before that. I was definitely fascinated by space when I was a kid, when I was about 10 or 11 years old and starting to learn about the planets and stars and black holes and things like that. But I grew up in Australia and there was no space agency at the time, so I didn't actually think of it as being a possible career for me. It was just kind of there in the back of my mind along with all these amazing experiences I'd had at museums, going to space museums and things like that. So it remained as kind of a passion but not something that I followed up on. So I actually ended up doing a Bachelor of Engineering in Industrial Chemistry. And after that I stayed on and did a PhD. I was working on nanomaterials for hydrogen storage, fuel cell vehicles. After that I was looking for a postdoc and I wanted some international experience. So I actually found a postdoc at the National Research Council of Italy. And Bologna uprooted my life. And my husband as well came with me for what was supposed to be a one to two year postdoc in Bologna in Italy, but we actually ended up staying there for nine years. There I was working on a material called graphene for a lot of different applications and still kind of keeping my alternative energy thread, but I had some space related applications, which is where these things start to come back. And so the particular project I was working on was using graphene for cooling devices in satellites. And so of course that needs to be able to work in conditions of weightlessness, which is where I got to experience my first couple of parabolic flights. So I actually got to experience what it's like to work in weightlessness. And this was actually before I even knew that the European Space Agency was going to be having another round of applications for astronauts. So this was, it was completely separate, but it's starting to bring these things together. But what really convinced me was when I then went and spent a year in Antarctica doing climate change research at, at Concordia Station, which is a really isolated base. And it was while I was there that, that I decided that I wanted to do something similar to what I was doing in those extreme conditions, but in some conditions that are even more extreme.
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Host
Okay, a year in Antarctica. Please tell me, as if one can summarize such an experience, but what an incredible experience on so many different levels, psychologically, scientifically. Please tell me about what that was like.
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Megan Christian
Yeah, it is, it was a life changing experience and it is really hard to summarize, but it was, it was a hugely special moment for me in my life. Antarctica is another one of those things that I'd kind of been fascinated by when I was, when I was a kid. I went to the International Antarctic center in Christchurch in New Zealand when I was about 12 or something like that. And I thought, you know, maybe one day I'll get there, I'll earn a lot of money and get to go on a cruise to Antarctica or something like that. But again, I didn't really think that I would actually get to get to work there. But the National Research Council where I was working, they have permanent observatories at Concordia Station, which is this really isolated base in the middle of nowhere on the Eastern Antarctic Plateau. And so they send around an email to all staff once per year asking if anybody is interested in going to spend the year and do a winter over There. And so the first time I saw that email, I thought back to when I was at that museum at 12 years old, and I thought, oh, that would be amazing. But there's no way that they would accept someone like me because I had a background in material science, you know, applied sciences, and they were looking for somebody to look after the observatories for atmospheric physics and meteorology. And I didn't even really know what atmospheric physics was, so I just actually let it slide. I thought, okay, we'll just. That would be amazing. But it's not for me. But a year later, this email came around again and I said, you know what, I'm just going to write back to them, see if they'll accept an application from someone like me. And they wrote back and said, yeah, yeah, come and have a chat. Turned out that chat was an interview. And next thing I know, I'm training to go and spend a year in Antarctica. So it was incredible. I mean, we got down to a temperature of -104 degrees Celsius, wind chill, and we had 100 days where the sun didn't come above the horizon. I was working outside every day. So it was tough, both physically and mentally.
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Host
I'm admiring you. So much as if I couldn't already, my levels went even higher. That is fascinating. And just I can imagine thinking after that experience, a stint in space.
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Megan Christian
All right, I've got this.
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Host
Oh, my goodness.
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Megan Christian
I mean, it kind of was something along those lines because the work that you're doing there, yes, you're in extreme conditions, but you were doing a kind of technician's role of being a custodian of other people's experiments. People have put their life's work into designing these experiments, but they can't be there to be the hands that look after them. And that's what astronauts do on the International Space Station as well. So they're actually really quite similar roles. And given that, I loved it. And also I learned a lot about myself. I think before I went there, there were a few things that I thought, maybe I won't be able to do this. Technical skills that I didn't necessarily think that I would be able to develop, but I had to learn a whole lot in a really short amount of time in those two weeks that I had of crossover with the person before me. And I loved that. I really loved that steep learning curve. So that kind of gave me to the confidence to go, yes, well, I can learn, I can do this, and I want to try and do it in space as well, to me it.
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Host
Does parallel, as you said so beautifully, the astronaut in space experience that you have to know how to work in those extremely difficult conditions with others. And you compliment each other. Well, it does feel like a natural step. It's quite amazing when you tell the story back, it makes a lot of sense.
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Megan Christian
And you're also being motivated by this incredible natural environment that you have around you. In the case of Antarctica, that's this desert of ice. But Also in those 100 days of darkness, the stars are absolutely incredible. There was one task I had to do, which was go out to a tower with a bunch of meteorological instruments on it once per week and go and clean all those instruments. And this tower is about 45 meters high. It's about a kilometer away from the base. We're at high altitude. So it's quite hard work just walking and climbing and so on. But. So it was the toughest part of the week, but it was also the best part of the week because my colleague and I, that we did it together. We would, as we walked out there, take our headlamps off and just let our eyes adjust to the darkness and look up at the stars, which was just, it was like being completely blanketed by them. And if it was a moonless day, we could actually see our shadow in the light of the Milky Way. That's how bright the stars were.
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Host
Oh my gosh, what a beautiful, beautiful image. Megan, I'm thrilled just to be speaking with you. Thank you for telling me about your experiences. We haven't even gotten to what's happening. Tell me about when you got the news that you were sort of being called up out of the Reserves. That must have been an exciting moment. Moment.
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Megan Christian
Well, this, this training is for all of the reserves, so I'm not being singled out in any way just to, to specify. But finally, after the basic training of the career astronauts is complete, that means that there is now the opportunity for the reserves to, to have our training, which is, it's a kind of convent condensed version of the basic training that the career astronauts have just been through. It's going to be a total of about six months with two month intensive stints three times over the next couple of years. It's really exciting because there were no guarantees that we were actually going to have this training. As I mentioned at the beginning, this reserve concept is completely new. But there are more and more sort of commercial opportunities becoming available for flights. And in fact, the first person from our class to fly was one of the reserves. That was Marcus Vant from Sweden, he went on what's called a private astronaut mission, though it was institutional in any case, to the International Space Station back in January. And so this training is really preparing us for any opportunities like that that may come up in the future.
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Host
That's exciting.
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Maria Varmazes
And you start in January, is that right?
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Megan Christian
Yeah, that's right. So there are too many of us to do it in one block. So we're having two, two rounds. There's one class that we'll be doing, there's in October, between October and December. And then the other class, including myself, will be doing it January, February, heading over to Cologne in Germany to the European Astronaut Center.
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Host
And I imagine you will be thrilled with any kind of assignment, but if you are able to put in a request, I know it doesn't work that way. A dream assignment. What would you like to be able to do?
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Megan Christian
If there's no restrictions at all? I would love to go to the moon. I just have this vision of standing on the moon and looking back on Earth. The way that we look at the moon from Earth and you know, having that reciprocal perspective. I think that would just be incredible.
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Host
I can only. Oh my gosh, can you imagine what an amazing experience. Megan, one of the many things I really love about your story is that you mentioned at the very beginning where you grew up at the time. Now there is an Australian Space Agency, but there are many places in the world where there are children, like when you were a child, where maybe space isn't seen as a viable career one day or a thing or even a dream worth pursuing. What would you tell kids who are in the situation you were in as a kid where maybe you're going, well, there's no path for me, there's no point in me dreaming of this.
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Maria Varmazes
What would you tell those kids?
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Megan Christian
Yeah, I mean, you only have to look at the examples of, I mean my example, but also people like Tim Pink. The UK did not invest at all in human space flight before Tim was selected as an astronaut. And then he got to have his six month mission on the International Space Station. So you never know what's going to come. And so it's worth keeping that dream in your mind. It doesn't mean that you have to be completely focused on it. I don't think that would necessarily make a lot of sense. You can't decide that you want to be an astronaut and make that the only thing in your life because unfortunately you still have to be a little bit lucky to be to be selected. There will be more opportunities in the future. But for now, it's really only a small amount of people that are lucky enough to get to do it. So the key is to kind of chase down something that you really enjoy doing anyway. So find yourself in a career of things that you enjoy doing and then you'll be at the top of your game. So you're more likely to be selected as an astronaut. Not if you do apply. And hey, if you're not selected, then you're already feeling fulfilled and doing something that you love. So if you are selected, it's just a bonus.
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Maria Varmazes
Our second guest is a commercial astronaut who forged her place in history as the youngest woman to travel to the Karman Line. Carson Kitchen is a student, an entrepreneur and an astronaut.
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Carson Kitchen
I am a senior at UNC Chapel Hill. I study communications and astronomy. I also just recently founded an organization called Orbitel that is an initiative that aims to inspire young women, specifically non stem minded young women, to pursue opportunities and careers in the space industry. Let's see, what else? Oh, and I just am a newly minted astronaut. I recently just became the youngest woman to travel past the Karma line at age 21. So my life has been really crazy right now.
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Host
Not to bury the lead or anything on that one, you happen to have also had this incredibly singular experience which I gotta say, for pretty much the rest of your life you're like, top this one.
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Carson Kitchen
Yeah, literally.
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Host
So for folks who don't know about the Blue Origin flight that you were on. So this was NS26. Tell me a bit about the story about how you heard about Blue Origin and kind of got interested in going to space with Blue Origin.
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Carson Kitchen
So I was always really interested and fascinated by space when I was a kid. Like some of my first memories are me actually like looking around in my environment and like looking up specifically at the night sky. I was just so fascinated by space and the ever expanding field of it. And I was also really fascinated, which I later came to find out was physics. But, but I was really fascinated by how the world around me worked, how I could stay on the ground, you know, like I could only jump up a certain amount. I was also really fascinated by water and like how water moved and why it moved a certain way and just fluid dynamics, right?
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Host
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Carson Kitchen
Like I was really interested in like how this world worked around me. I consider myself a very lucky person because if you asked me when I was three years old or five years old or seven or 13 or even 18 or even two months ago, what I wanted to be, it would, I would have the same answer. And that would be to work in the space industry, to be an astronaut. Space is like the bait of my existence. It's like, it's why I'm here. And I know that it's. My purpose in life is to work in the space industry. Like I am just meant for space. And so I had a really interesting upbringing with it because I just naturally am better at arts and humanities, like English, history. That just naturally comes better to me. I have to try a lot harder in math and science. So I struggled with that in high school and a little bit about with that at the beginning of college and just where I kind of fit in the space industry. And I got the opportunity to go to my father's launch. So my father, Jim Kitchen, actually flew with Blue Origin and it represented something different to him. A lot of people say that I am following in his footsteps and that doesn't, I wouldn't say it annoys me, but it's just, I wouldn't say that's naturally the right thing because he didn't grow up talking about space. Like that was just an interest that I developed on my own, which is actually really interesting, like nature versus nurture, because he also has an interest. But I just didn't hear about it growing up. But I, I, you know, was kind of under the impression before that that, you know, I really wasn't going to be able to fit into the space industry because I wasn't on track to get a degree in quantum physics. I wasn't going to be an engineer. I was under the impression that the space industry was only, you know, really very highly scientific, esoteric group of people. And I went to his launch and I got the opportunity to meet so many different people who work in such unique parts of the space industry, specifically, like humanities, like journalists, writers, all of these artists, like fun people who I was like, I can see myself working in that kind of job. And it, you know, kind of ignited this kind of fire. It rekindled this fire I already had. And so I, you know, I kept in touch with all of these people and I told them that I wanted to go to space. And I was like, you know, I think it'd be great for you because you sent the youngest man to space and you can send me and I could represent the youngest woman and that would be a monopoly.
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Host
Oh, I love it. You pitched yourself. Yeah.
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Carson Kitchen
Also like, yeah, I can, I could be able to go to space. And so I guess I ended up liking my business because here I am today. But I'm also like, can I have a job? Like, I love space, and I promise you I'll regret it.
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Host
All right, so I feel like you're still fresh off of your. Your.
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Maria Varmazes
Your flight.
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Host
Are there enough superlatives in the universe to describe those? The time that you were up there? I mean, can you relay any of that to me?
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Carson Kitchen
I think that's really funny because I hate saying, like, oh, my God. Words cannot describe that experience because people are like, okay, well, can you try? Like, can you maybe, like, try to put a couple together? Like, string some. And I'm like, I obviously, I study communications and vocabulary based off of human experience, and not a lot of people have experienced space, so obviously it's normal that we don't have vocabulary to just describe some of that. But I will try my best. I think that was every adjective ever, every I experienced, which is why I thought I was. I think I was so tired after my flight because it's also physically draining, but that I experienced. Experience every single human emotion. Literally every single human emotion. And with a span of, like, 15 minutes, which is so insane. Like, that rocket. That rocket took off, and the fire that comes, like, the dragon's breath. It was literally like sitting on top of a dragon because it kind of, like, awakes. It starts. It starts. You hear this, like, beating heart of that rocket, and the fire just completely encapsulates the totality of the cabin. And you're pushed off of this earth with such an immaculate speed that it seriously takes your breath away. And it's like, everyone knows the feeling of being on a roller coaster and dropping and your stomach kind of drops. But it was. Honestly, it was the opposite kind of reaction. I felt like my stomach was being pushed out. And I remember, like, we were going so fast because we're going 2300 miles an hour. And I'm like, we are going so fast. Like, this is a lot faster than I thought it was going to be. And honestly, I was like, Like, I'm so excited, and I'm so happy, and I'm, like, so lucky to be doing this, but I'm also, like, kind of freaking out. And.
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Host
That is the most honest reaction I've ever heard. Oh, my God. Bless you for saying that, because I'm just like, how could you not be freaking out? Anyway, sorry, go.
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Carson Kitchen
Yeah, no, but I was like. I remember when we went past, like, the clouds, I was like, okay, I'm really doing this.
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Megan Christian
Really.
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Carson Kitchen
Like, this is actually happening. Like, I'm literally leaving the Earth's atmosphere right now, like, this is loco. Like, this is literally crazy loco. What's happening right now. Is this really, like, the plan of action I wanted to take in my life? Like, I couldn't pick something, like, maybe like, little less crazy to be my area of interest. But I like, wow. Of course I have to speak for this car.
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Host
You're halfway up and you're, like, having some second thoughts. Well.
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Carson Kitchen
I'm so excited. And I had no negative emotion. I was just like. I was honestly laughing to myself because I'm like, of course, like, I chose the craziest, like, life. But I remember, like, I remember when we went past the clouds and the sky starts to get darker. Like, everything becomes to kind of get quieter and quieter. And then Nico and separation happen and you're free falling and everything just in an instant, just like, stops. It's the quietest any. It's the quietest life has ever been. And you just. It literally is like time stops. And I remember looking out of my window and seeing like, this incredibly bright blue, fluorescent beating heart of an Earth. And I was like, that thing is alive. Like, that thing is like, that thing can feel. And that thing has. Is a lot powerful than we think it is. And it's so beautiful. And the wisp of the atmosphere in this little bubble that, like, that takes care of us and loves us and nourishes us and gives us everything we need. And you can see the texture of the mountains and the beautiful beauty marks that Earth has. And it's a lot smaller than I thought it would be, but it's so bright. And I think that's what really took my breath away. And to look down at that planet and be like, that's my home. That is where everything that has ever existed, has lived. And how incredibly powerful that is and how that everything I've ever loved and I ever will love is on this beautiful planet. And it is my duty to take care of it. And it is my duty to enjoy my life. Because that thing has been there for 4.5 billion years. And we've only. Humans have only been alive for like, 300,000. And how good things take time. And you know, how lucky I am to be able to be alive in this moment in time, to be able to experience this, to be able to experience everything that life has to offer me. To be able to go on a walk through my neighborhood, to be able to laugh with my friends, to be able to see, like, to that we all gather together at the end of the day to watch our sun go down is so beautiful. And it's just how lucky I am to be able to feel the wind against my face and, you know, to swim in our beautiful ocean. And I think it was just made me really lucky. Made me feel really lucky and really grateful and to just be able to be alive. And then you look out at this black contrast, vastness, this black void, the void drought of space. And it is so black. It is so black. And my crewmate said it perfectly. He said that it sucks your brain out of your head, which is kind of true. It really does. It's just like, oh, my gosh, that's the blackest black I've ever seen. And it's. It's a really interesting contrast because while it is the blackest black you've ever seen, it also has depth and it has dimension to it, and you can see that it has space. And then to look back and to see this flourishing, breathing, beating planet, you're like, oh, my gosh.
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Host
Out.
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Carson Kitchen
Out of nothing, out of literally nothing. We are here flourishing. We are sending people back into space. We are here living. And that is the greatest gift that any of us have ever been given, to just be able to be alive and to exist here. And I feel like my entire life just changed in an instant. And I can see how it's changed in my life. My life feels quieter. It's less noisy. I feel grateful. I'm able to bright side things on my life more. I'm able to just take a breath and like, it's crazy even going on a walk. Like, I just feel so lucky to be alive and to just, like, have this incredible perspective. And I was so emotional.
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Maria Varmazes
A very special thank you to both our guests, Megan Christian and Carson Kitchen.
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Host
If you're interested in hearing more about.
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Maria Varmazes
The space industry, join us every day for T Minus Space Daily, available on all major podcast platforms. Find out more@spare.n2k.com we'd love to know what you think of our show. You can email us@spacen2k.com your feedback ensures that we deliver the information that keeps you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. This show was produced by Alice Carruth. Our associate producer is Liz Stokes. Were mixed by Elliott Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliott Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Our executive editor is Brandon Karp.
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Host
Simone Petrella is our president.
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Maria Varmazes
Peter Kilpe is our publisher. And I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
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Megan Christian
T minus.
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Dave
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