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T-Minus: Space-Cyber Briefing
T-Minus Overview- The Pros and Cons of Human Spaceflight.
00:27:55
Welcome to the T-Minus Overview Radio Show featuring conversations with experts from the space industry about the pros and cons of human spaceflight.
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- [00:02]
Maria Varmazes
You're listening to the N2K space network. Happy holidays from all of us here at N2K Networks. We're taking some time off to spend with our families and we'll be sharing some of our radio programs and repeat episodes during this time for you to enjoy. We will resume our daily briefing on January 2nd. Happy New Year foreign.
- [00:30]
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- [01:32]
Maria Varmazes
I'm Maria Varmazes, host of the T Minus Space Daily Podcast and you're listening to T Minus Overview T Minus in this program, we'll feature some of the conversations from our daily podcast with the people who are forging the path in the new space era, from industry leaders, technology experts and pioneers to educators, policymakers, research organizations, and more. In this episode, we're going to discuss human spaceflight. It can be a divisive discussion. Should we be focusing on sending humans to space or should we be using robots to explore the cosmos instead? On that we'll hear from two experts. Savannah Mandel is an anthropologist who researches all things speculative, futuristic and industrial. She has written a book based on her research on space tourism flights from Spaceport America in New Mexico and her time working in Washington D.C. in space policy. And I started by asking Savannah to explain why she was attracted to study human spaceflight.
- [03:14]
Savannah Mandel
When I was much younger, in undergrad, I remember I went to a professor and I asked her, I was like, you know, is it possible to even research space as an anthropologist? And she said no. But to give her credit, between me and archaeologists who didn't know that this research existed, and it's a very small body of anthropologists who are doing this work. There's like two dozen people out there who are doing it. And then when I ended up in the UK doing a master's degree, by sheer coincidence there were three anthologists there doing work on space who ended up doing a big research grant after I left to do work with the iss. And so I was in the right place at the right time. And they helped me find my field site at Spaceport America for that master's degree research. And it was tough, it was tough to find the field site. I had to send out a lot of emails and cold calls. But Spaceport America was really amicable to the idea. And I went out there and I conducted research. And from there it really snowballed. I kind of nose dived into space work and loved working in technical fields. As a cultural scientist, I loved getting to merge the two together. And so that's how it started.
- [04:36]
Unknown Host
I find that just so fascinating. I only took a few anthropology courses in college and I'm just like, it is such a cool area of study. I'd love to know your very high level view. Like when you're observing the sort of, I don't know, the subculture that is, what's going on in space, or the different things that are happening in the space world, how do you, when people are asking like, what do you study? What have you learned? What do you tell them?
- [04:58]
Savannah Mandel
You know, the motivations behind interest in space exploration are sometimes really different than the reasons for technical development. So for example, something from my current research on space mining, I've been talking to a lot of interview subjects on the topic. And it's like I've made this list of things I've learned from them. Just sort of a highlight list for myself. And it's funny because like one of the top things I put on the list was most people who have worked in space mining or did in the past don't think space mining is feasible in the near future. Yeah, well, in the near future. But the second thing I learned from them is that they think it absolutely should happen. And so you have this huge contradiction which has a lot to do with beliefs and values surrounding space exploration. And item one on the list is about technical feasibility and economic viability. And item two on that list is about social and cultural cosmology. So that's kind of like how I am interacting and working in this space.
- [06:10]
Unknown Host
You have written a book and I don't want to spoil the title because I think it's really fascinating. So can you give me the title to your book?
- [06:17]
Savannah Mandel
Yeah. The title, which my publisher chose, not me, I'd like to happen, is Ground Control and Argument for the End of Human Space Exploration. And it is exactly that. The title is accurate. The book is slightly based on my research at Spaceport America. It is a little based on my work in space policy, but it is also first and foremost the Coming of age story of an anthropologist working in stem, navigating that and what that looks like. And it's my personal journey in political commentary as well on, you know, how I went from being a hardcore believer in human space exploration and human space flight as opposed to unmanned, to someone who, through their research, became increasingly aware of, like, flaws in the system and realized, you know, maybe now is not the time to send humans to outer space and maybe instead we should be focusing on earthly issues and postponing human spaceflight. And so that's what this book argues, and it shows how I got to that perspective as a person.
- [07:34]
Unknown Host
That's fascinating. And honestly, kudos to you for speaking to a space podcast because I know, you know, that some of the people hearing are going to go, and it's important that we explore all these points of view, honestly, so I'm not coming at you in that way at all. I think it's really important to understand because, you know, we're all living on this planet. We all have different points of view. So I would love to know just a bit about sort of how you arrived at where you got to. And for the record, many other people share your point of view who also work in the space industry. Yeah, walk me through it.
- [08:05]
Savannah Mandel
First off, I should say, like, space is a topic that is close to heart for so many of us. You know, we grow up looking at the stars. As children, my mom used to wake me up in the middle of the night to go watch meteor showers. So I understand, like, how personal and, like, how emotional this topic is for so many human beings and how close it's been to us for our entire species. Lifetime. For me, when I started doing work at Space for America, I love space. You know, I was not a space skeptic at all. I was curious about it in the way an anthropologist is curious about most things. And I think I went out there and was surprised by some things. I started to be surprised about the little things. I saw how bureaucratic are the processes involved in the space for that. I felt like as I was taking notes, I started to see that things didn't add up. Like two plus two did not always equal four. Or sometimes I was being told, like, you're. I'm writing down 2 plus 2 back to 2 plus 3. What I mean by that is, you know, in one side of my notes, I would have, like, a list of the celebrities that were going to go on Virgin Galactic flights and how all these flights were going to equate to progress for humanity and progress for New Mexico and progress for the human future. But in the other side of my nose, I would have poverty statistics for the region. I would have statistics about protests for other regions surrounding spaceports. And I was like, how? How do these relate? Like, how do these ion? Well, at that point in time, not doing my research, I didn't know. I didn't have the answers. I didn't have the answers when I came back to write my dissertation. So if you read that online, you're not going to see an early version of ground control, because I wasn't thinking that way. But when I ended up going to work in space policy in dc, I was exposed more and more to the colonial rhetoric, the territorial rhetoric, the imperial rhetoric that was still existent in the space industry, and especially the militaristic veteran. Because at the time that I was in bc, the Space Force was being created.
- [10:16]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [10:16]
Savannah Mandel
And I was going to space hearings and seeing, like, the hearing in Congress where the Space Force was being discussed. And I started thinking. I was like, is this really how America is talking about space? Is this how we're talking about our space competitors? Is this the language that is being used? And I have several chapters on this where I kind of go into depth about all that. And I just started feeling like I was in this Orwellian novel where I was like, is there something wrong here? Is there a reason why we're not questioning how we're talking about space, what our motivations for going to space are? Because that was the thing that messed me as it just didn't feel right why we were going to space or when we were going to space or what we were doing in space. And I also had this greater issue with who was in the conversations about space, who was getting a voice in this conversation about space, who was not, you know, were the people of truth or consequences getting a say in who was going on the flights and how often there were going to be flights and expanding that basically idea to all of human space flight. And I was concerned. I was just concerned. And I started looking into that more and more. And the more I looked into it, the more I saw sort of cracks overall. And it was tough to think about it in that way because it feels very taboo, I think, to talk bad about outer space or to think negatively about human space exploration. Because from a very young age, we are told that human space exploration is humanity's next stage, instead of being told from a young age that restoration or maintenance of Earth is humanity's future. And it's just a narrative we are taught as Americans, as Westerners.
- [12:15]
Unknown Host
Yep.
- [12:16]
Savannah Mandel
And as humans to an extent. But I really do think it's a. It's a Western American narrative, truly. So that was a major part of the journey. Yeah, I really dug into that as I began to write Ground Control.
- [12:30]
Unknown Host
Thank you for sharing that. You've put your finger on the pulse of, I think, a lot of unsaid questions that I've often heard. And as I said, many people who listen to this show are obviously big boosters of space. But I think what you're saying relates to a question a lot of the big space boosters have, space fans, for lack of a better word, about why is it that a lot of people just don't care? And I think what a lot of the points that you brought out are sort of the underlying questions that a lot of people have. And I'm taking a bit of an oppositional point of view. But for folks who do want to see space succeed, they need to have some answers to these questions. We have to actually examine these questions and have some real answers and not just give it lip service. Otherwise, if the industry is going to continue to grow, these are very valid questions that people have. Your questions are very important.
- [13:17]
Savannah Mandel
Yeah. I think it was strange for me because there's this real demographic difference that I was faced with pretty consistently. When you are working in the space industry, it is a very elite industry. It's upper class white males with a lot of opportunities. And, you know, I would go home as an intern and work a bartending job where it's like my fellow bartenders did not want to talk about space.
- [13:50]
Dr. George Neild
Yeah.
- [13:50]
Savannah Mandel
It's not because they weren't educated enough to do so. It was because, like, they were trying to pay their bills and get like health insurance, you know, And I. I've been kind of faced with that demographic my whole life and interacting with that demographic my whole life since I was a teenager. And I think about, like, where do those individuals sit in conversations about space industry? They sit in the population that is left behind.
- [14:16]
Unknown Host
Yeah.
- [14:17]
Savannah Mandel
And that's a hard pill to swallow. And I guess I wrote that book for them. The book for them, you know.
- [14:23]
Unknown Host
Yeah. I come at this question again, I'm not, I'm not trying to sound oppositional. I grew up in a family where my family was not American. I'm a first generation American. And it was just like, well, space is American propaganda.
- [14:35]
Dr. George Neild
That.
- [14:35]
Unknown Host
And that's actually what I still hear pretty much predominantly in my family. And that point of view is very pervasive and it's not even. It's not wrong either. So there's a lot to that. And I think these examinations are just so important, even for people who disagree with your thesis. I think it's really important that we understand and understand who's not being, as you said, part of the conversation. And also, I mean, everything you're saying, I was nodding my head because I'm just like, yeah, you're explaining things and couching a lot of these questions that I've heard sort of half said or unsaid for a long time. And you really put your finger on it because these are very valid points.
- [15:14]
Savannah Mandel
Yeah. I think one thing I want the readers who are on the opposing side to keep in mind too, is that the book doesn't think we should never send humans to space. It just kind of argues that now is not the time to. And that we should focus efforts on unmanned exploration, which is less expensive, less dangerous, until Earth gets to a point of what I refer to as stability. And I go into, again, more detail about that. But it's about, you know, dealing with issues like scarcity and climate change before prioritizing things that I feel like are a little frivolous, like space tourism, you know, which is not so much about accomplishing things as much scientific things there. So that's something that the book argues.
- [16:22]
Maria Varmazes
So we've heard from someone who believes in taking a pause from human space exploration. So it's only fair that we hear from someone with an opposing point of view. Dr. George Neild is the former head of the Federal Aviation Administration's Office of Commercial Space Transportation. And he was fortunate enough to experience space flight as a passenger on a Blue Origin New Shepard launch. I asked him about his flight and whether he thinks more people should experience space travel.
- [16:53]
Dr. George Neild
So I have been working in the space programs of our country basically my whole career in the Air Force and working for NASA and then at the FAA Office of Commercial Space Transportation. And so at this point in my life and having retired from the government now, to have the opportunity to personally experience flight, space flight, it was just an incredible opportunity. So start off the folks on the flight, there were six of us. We flew into El Paso and stayed in a hotel overnight and then woke up the next morning and there were a number of Rivian electric trucks that drove us out to the launch site. It's a couple hour drive from El Paso to get out to Van Horn and then eventually the launch site itself. Really different than, say, a Cape Canaveral. It's very much out in an area without many people living there, which is a great thing from a safety perspective, if you're operating rockets and so forth. Different companies have different kinds of systems. What Blue Origin has come up with is a system that is fully automated. So there is not a pilot on board. There is not a pilot on the ground controlling the rocket. It's the computers that are flying things. And again, some people might be concerned about that. But the flip side of that is, well, you don't have to worry about pilot error if there's a pilot. Once you've got the software working, then you got a good system.
- [18:26]
Maria Varmazes
No human factor in that situation.
- [18:28]
Dr. George Neild
Yes. So that offers an interesting opportunity to really streamline the training because we didn't have to worry about having to land the vehicle or what switches do you pull, or what displays need you to push a button on and so forth. Instead, they've got it set up with three days of training. And we practice over and over and over again in their simulator what the flights would be like. But it's pretty much on. Okay, how do you get in and out of your seat both on 1G conditions on the ground, and then if you're going to float around in weightlessness, how to understand the displays, how to talk on the radio, and then how to respond to emergency situations. And so by the time we got to launch day, everybody felt well, prepared and ready to go. So that's a completely different scenario than when you've talked to Eileen Collins and other NASA astronauts who had to train for years to be able to fly the space Shuttle, for example. So launch, morning, early, wake up. Got to meet up with our family and friends before launch. And 45 minutes before launch, we drove out to the rocket on the pad, climbed up seven flights of stairs and strapped into the capsule. And then we had the typical go, no go poles from Mission Control with a nice set of very capable engineers that are overseeing the operations. And then, five, four, three, two, one, ignition. The rocket engine starts. And when they're up to speed, you're going. And unlike some of the other astronauts that I've talked to who described liftoff as a kick in the pants, this was rapid acceleration, but very smooth. There's no solid rocket boosters that have a rapid acceleration. And it was exciting. It's thrilling. Lots of things to pay attention to. About a minute after that, you go through the maximum dynamic pressure, or max Q. A little over two minutes, main engine cutoff. And then a few seconds after that, bang, the capsule separates from the booster. And then we're allowed to unstrap our harnesses and float around. Just an exhilarating feeling of weightlessness, doing somersaults, and you just have to smile and laugh and it's just such a joyful experience. But the highlight of the flight by far was the view. You look out of these huge windows and see the curvature of the Earth and this thin blue line, that's the atmosphere that you're above. And you look above that and instead of seeing blue sky, it is black, the blackest black that you can imagine. And that whole picture is the most beautiful thing that I have ever experienced in my life. I just get goosebumps telling people about it. It was just incredible. Pictures and videos do not do it justice. So about three minutes of weightlessness, then it's time to strap back into your seats and start descending back into the atmosphere. And once again, you're pushed back into your seat and the parachutes come out and a nice smooth descent and then touchdown. And the whole thing lasted only about 10 minutes, but it was just an incredible experience. The ground support team drove out within just a few minutes, opened up the hatch, and we were able to greet our families and just a remarkable adventure, just an incredible experience.
- [22:14]
Maria Varmazes
I got goosebumps listening to that. That's absolutely incredible. Thank you for sharing that.
- [22:19]
Dr. George Neild
So just a comment about people asking us, so what are you going to do now? Oh my goodness. It was such an amazing experience and one that only 650 people in the whole world have ever had the opportunity to go through. We have to figure out how to allow more people to have this experience. So that means more companies, more, more rockets, more spacecraft, more spaceports. We have to figure out how to make these flights safer, more reliable and lower cost so that more people can have this life changing experience.
- [22:53]
Maria Varmazes
You described the view that you saw and that sounds like you had the overview effect, as they say, that cognitive shift once you see that beautiful thin line of our atmosphere that protects us of the harmful radiation from space. I mean, what, what shifted for you when you came back to Earth? Were there any changes that you noticed within after you returned?
- [23:15]
Dr. George Neild
So again, some people would even question, oh, is it possible to have the overview effect after only 10 minutes? And so. But it certainly is a life changing experience, at least for me. And you realize how huge, how vast, how beautiful the universe is, how small each of us is, and what a special place to live the Earth is. And yes, we have to do all we can to take care of it. It really puts things in perspective, don't worry about some things that you might worry about beforehand. And it's just an incredible experience and an experience that I hope many more people can have in the future, given.
- [23:57]
Maria Varmazes
The incredible career you have and how much experience you have in aerospace. And then you also got to become an astronaut too, which is just an amazing thing. Did your flight give you maybe a new insight or appreciation into space flight or maybe the aerospace industry in general?
- [24:14]
Dr. George Neild
Yes. I think one huge opportunity that those of us in aerospace have is to try to do a better job of talking about space and its importance and the experience to the rest of the public. I think in the past we've tended to stress science, technology, engineering, math, STEM subjects. Yes. We need people that are good in that. Absolutely. But if you think about the long term vision, Richard Branson wants to have his space lines. Jeff Bezos talks about having millions of people living and working in space to benefit Earth. Elon Musk wants to make humanity a multi planetary species. So again, those are very ambitious goals and they're going to take a long time to achieve. Got it. But as we start to have commercial space stations, moon bases, scientific sites on Mars and so forth, it's going to take a lot of different skills, a lot of different kinds of people to do this. Not just test pilots, scientists, engineers, we need those for sure. But also mechanics, technicians, welders, bakers, we need artists, we need painters, we need authors, storytellers, we need all kinds of different skills, all kinds of different people. We need space lawyers, we need communicators, we need administrators. We need people who are basically hotel managers that can oversee the operations and keep track of the finances. And so I guess my message, and one I hope will get out there in the future, is that if you have a passion for space, stick with it, because there is going to be a place for you. So if you love engineering and science, that's fantastic. But if you have other strengths, other interests, other backgrounds, there's still going to be an opportunity for you to make a difference and to be a part of all this.
- [26:41]
Maria Varmazes
It's a fascinating discussion, so we want to thank both our guests today, Savannah Mandel and Dr. George Neild. If you're interested in hearing more about the space industry, join me every day for T Minus Space Daily, available on all major podcast platforms. Find out more@spare.n2k.com we'd love to know what you think of this show. You can email us@spacen2k.com your feedback ensures we deliver the information that keeps you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry.
- [27:14]
Unknown Host
This episode was produced by Alice Carruth.
- [27:17]
Maria Varmazes
Our associate producer is Liz Stokes. We are mixed by Elliott Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman.
- [27:25]
Unknown Host
Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin.
- [27:27]
Maria Varmazes
Our executive editor is Brandon Karp. Simone Petrella is our president. Peter Kilpe is our publisher, and I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thank you for listening. We will see you next time.
- [27:45]
Savannah Mandel
T minus.