Maria Varmazes (4:41)

That's amazing. I love hearing that journey and it always warms my heart to hear people who go. Space wasn't really what I thought I'd be doing, but I ended up here. I think that's just so great because that's the journey for a lot of us. It's not really validating, right? Exactly, exactly. And it's just wonderful to hear that and to hear what you've been doing. And speaking of. Yeah. So the Carmen Project, your foundation, tell me a bit about what you all do because it is very fascinating work.

Hannah Ashford (5:10)

Oh, thanks, Mary. That's super kind. So we really set out to build a cooperative and peaceful future in space that was very much centered and grounded around people. So we really wanted to look at, okay, what are the most critical challenges that we're facing as an international space community? And how can we very proactively build the networks of trust and the avenues to sort of meet the challenges that we're being continuously faced with and which are becoming more and more complex as things sort of transpire in the space sector. So we're really focused upon, you know, accelerating this cooperative future in space, specifically by cultivating a global community of very responsible space actors and importantly, working to proactively build trust among them. So, I mean, if you look back through history and this is something that was very, you know, deeply understood by, you know, Some of the senior folk who are behind the foundation, you know, coming from NASA and European Space Agency and other, you know, large scale international environments, they really agreed that, you know, when you look back in history, trust is really important because, you know, the core moments that we've experienced as humans have been sort of catalyzed by either, you know, incredible trust being built and fostered between partners, or indeed the absence of trust in terms of, you know, where we can go more towards, you know, more catastrophic situations. And I think that's quite a timely challenge that all of us at the moment in this complex geopolitical environment are navigating is how do we build trust, maintain trust, and how do we ensure that we are leveraging just that power of real human relationships when it comes to fostering that real sense of community and people being willing to go that extra mile and really create something and do something extraordinary together. So for us, that starts with focusing on people, particularly people who are in positions with decision making power, and working with those people to leverage that power in a responsible manner and ensure that they're proactively learning what's happening across other ecosystems in the world, that they're considering how it is that they make decisions, and more importantly, that they're really reflecting on, okay, what levers can I pull to create good in space and for the benefit of the various communities and people that space ultimately serves? So that's a bit of, I suppose, the why in terms of why we started the foundation. And then concretely, I mean, of course, we run a number of different programs that are really centered around those principles and that mission to proactively build trust and cooperative relationships between people. So we work with leaders from, at the moment, just over 70 nations across the world. It's an incredibly multidisciplinary approach to space that's really important to us to ensure that we're proactively bringing together astronauts, agency heads, industry leaders, researchers, artists, and creating environments where they feel safe and supported to speak with one another and to share their dreams, but also their biggest fears in space right now, and to learn from one another and to really look at what it is that they can do, using their power as individuals and as leaders of different high impact organizations, but importantly, what they can also do together. So what practical avenues exist for people who otherwise perhaps would have never crossed paths? How can we bring them together and how can we ensure that they are finding avenues to work together?

Maria Varmazes (9:00)

So speaking of the specific things that you all are working on, I know that what brings us together today which sounds very overly formal, but is the announcement that you all put out in late May about a collaboration that you're doing with Jaguar Space? I'm wondering if you could give me, I guess, the pitch on that one.

Hannah Ashford (9:16)

Yeah. So this is a super exciting project where we're lucky enough to be working with one of our brilliant Carmen fellows. His name is Dr. Louis Sayer. He's the founder and CEO of a relatively new company called Jaguar Space. And what they're really focused upon is creating opportunities for particularly emerging space nations to get access to space. So I think it's important to sort of understand and look back to sort of the Carmen Fellowship program to really understand how we landed it at this point and, you know, with the fellowship. So what we do is we work with, you know, this independent selection board of brilliant people from across the world and together they identify from, from a larger pool of applicants, 15 people each year who they believe have the ability and acumen to really shape the future of space. So we're looking at people who are incredibly smart, but also very well intentioned and who genuinely have a desire to go out there and, and do things sort of above and beyond the normal scope of, of their day to day. Right, that's grounded in three pillars. The first one is leadership. So we really work with our fellows to ensure that they are considering how they make decisions, particularly in these more uncertain and volatile times. We ensure that they are learning from one another and gaining understandings and insights into other regions of the world. So ensuring that the top leaders in the US and China and India are cognizant of what's happening in Costa Rica and Kenya and the Maldives and the Philippines. So ensuring that when they're making decisions, they're not doing that with their blinkers on and that they're doing that with a robust understanding of what the priorities and challenges are that their counterparts and colleagues across the world are dealing with in their day to day. And then the second pillar that we work on with our fellows is dialogue. So creating very safe spaces for them to speak openly about what's happening in space now and in the future of space. And that's really well supported by different partners we work with, like the University of Oxford and our Space Initiative. So we convene together with them, bringing academia and different worlds together with our sort of industry leaders to discuss and think about the future of space. We work with other international organizations contributing at a UN level and to forums like the International Astronautical Federation. But then importantly, the third action, we never just Wanted to be sort of a think tank or something where people just simply talk and then go out there and actually change what they're doing. So the most important pillar, I would say, of our entire foundation is action. Because we also have found that the way that we build trust between people is when they work on projects together and when they have a very tangible shared goal. Right?

Maria Varmazes (12:05)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yep.

Hannah Ashford (12:07)

So, you know, grounded in that action pillar is a very strong call to action that we give to all of our fellows to say, okay, what are you doing? What influence do you have? And importantly, as I said earlier, what can you do together? How can you leverage your responsibility for good? Luis was among our fellows in 2023. And that year we take our delegations to different ecosystems across the world to ensure that we're really grounding these conversations in very real world contexts. And then that year, we brought the delegation to the Maldives with the Maldives based research organization and created a program that was really looking at how to leverage space technologies for some of the most immediate challenges that they're facing as a small island nation, one of the most vulnerable climate nations in the world. So really looking at how we can leverage space for early warning systems, for large weather events, how to monitor illegal fishing, how to track megafauna and the health of coral ecosystems, which are so important to our economy and tourism and all of the flow on effects. Right. And it was also in that time, though, that the fellows were very much reflecting upon. Okay. When you're talking about an emerging space nation and how to engage and how to build those very first sort of seeds of a space program, of course, you need to look first and foremost at how to service those immediate needs of the region and of the population and, you know, the people that we're trying to serve. Right? Yeah.

Maria Varmazes (13:35)

Yes, absolutely. Yep. We'll be right back.

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Hannah Ashford (15:01)

Foreign.

Dave (15:07)

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Hannah Ashford (16:03)

But also what's really important, particularly for emerging space nations, which is sometimes overlooked, is, you know, the need to also foster science and inspiration and, you know, not just leave those for the large established space nations. And that was something we discussed initially in the Maldives. And hey, can we actually send some of these vulnerable coral ecosystems to space for studies of microgravity to understand if we can learn something about resilience and building more robust species here? So that was something that Luis really set his mind on when we were together in the Maldives. And that's really developed in a number of different ways. And then as part of his common commitment, he eventually started Jaguar Space. So he really sort of recalibrated what he wanted to do and what he wanted to contribute to the wider space ecosystem. And he wanted to create a very clear avenue that enabled emerging space nations to access the International Space Station and other platforms which are quite, you know, otherwise opaque and, you know, difficult to understand. Where to even start if you want to do any of these, this type of, you know, science or.

Maria Varmazes (17:09)

Yeah, unless you're already sort of established in it. How, how does one enter that? Right, Exactly.

Hannah Ashford (17:14)

So just really simplifying that process and also proactively, leveraging, you know, not only the Carmen network, but all of these brilliant international networks across the world to say, you know, you as whatever country you are, can actually be part of this and you can really think about how to build something. So Luis came to me earlier this year. He essentially had this opportunity to send these agricultural payloads to the International Space Station. He's a specialist in bioastronautics, has done so many brilliant experiments over the years on the ISS and other platforms. And he came and said, look, we have this opportunity. I want to contribute an entire payload to a whole host of emerging space nations. And I want to reserve one part of that payload specifically for the Carmen project. And let's go and talk to our community and find four countries who have very culturally significant payloads and seeds, want the opportunity to study those for research and outreach purposes, and let's give them the opportunity to fly something to space for the very first time. So, you know, we, we sort of put a call out to our community. We got so many brilliant applications that were just so grounded in, you know, a lot of cultural significance and, and really robust scientific, you know, opportunities and pathways there as well. And ultimately we, we sort of selected four applicants. So the first one is an application from one of our fellows, Nelly, representing Armenia. She's sending pomegranate seeds to the space station. Secondly, we have some seeds coming from Egypt from Sarah Sabri, that Egyptian cotton seeds. Then we have from Timadeo in Nigeria, some melon seeds which will be sent. And then finally we have some wheat seeds from Pakistan being led by one of our common pioneers, Mahad Naya. And I think what's really important is that these are four nations who have, you know, not only looked at seeds that have significant cultural heritage, but also very significant economic importance. So the opportunity to study these and to look at, okay, how can we perhaps look at more resilient species? How can we use this to just inspire the minds and imaginations of students? So, you know, each of these four community members have been incredibly proactive in terms of developing partnerships with universities across our regions to ensure that very real science can be done. Once we get the seats back, they'll spend about a week on the International Space Station. So that will be enough microgravity exposure, quite a decent amount to hopefully be able to get some first tangible results. I think what's really cool as well is at least to our understanding. So please to the listeners, feel free to fact check this out. Actually, I'd love that. But our understanding is that this is the first time that Pakistan has been represented on the International Space Station and I believe as well as the first time that Armenia has been represented on the iss. But please, you know, fact check me if we've missed something because of course we'd love to know.

Maria Varmazes (20:24)

We know we'll hear from somebody.

Hannah Ashford (20:27)

You know, what's happened.

Maria Varmazes (20:29)

So, so many thoughts come to mind as you describe all this. It's just a Fantastic idea. And especially with geopolitics shifting as they are right now, and sovereignty being so important for, you know, and space sovereignty being a phrase that I've heard so many times. And also just I think a lot about it from my American lens, about how much the sort of the mythology of NASA has done so much for people my age, older and younger, and how much that other nations want that for themselves also, and not NASA, but their own organization, you know, being able to root for and building something of their own national mythology and how wonderful that is and how important that is.

Hannah Ashford (21:14)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to create narratives that resonate with populations across the world. Right. I mean, I'm so grateful to NASA for all of the, you know, brilliant storytelling and inspiration that it gave to me as an Australian who, you know, grew up not having any pathway to space. And, I mean, perhaps that's why I never considered a career in space. Right. But we, as children of countries that didn't have space programs, would always look to NASA and go, oh, my goodness, that's possible. And the idea that we can create that in a really profound and culturally relevant manner for more nations across the world, I think is a real gift. And I'm just so grateful to Luis for using his knowledge, his expertise and, and just his goodwill to create this opportunity. And, you know, it's not easy to coordinate with so many nations because also we're not the only four nations represented on this mission. I need to double check this, but I think there's 12 in total. So Luis is working so hard, working and importing seeds from all across the world and supporting agencies and, and, you know, NGOs and academic institutions in having access to this opportunity. And it's a real mission in every sense of the word. And I think it's really special to see people just go so far out of their way to create opportunities that can have hopefully quite a catalytic effect in the relevant ecosystems across the world and yet tell those narratives that land in such a, you know, core human way to the people of those nations.

Maria Varmazes (22:58)

Hannah, thank you so much for telling me about it and just what a beautiful idea. I just. It's so resonant, human. I love it. Is there anything else about this and what you do that you wanted to mention to the audience, since it's sort of the free space time, as I mentioned on that email, if there's anything you wanted to mention that I didn't touch on, that you wanted to get across, it's your opportunity.

Hannah Ashford (23:20)

Yeah, look, I Mean, again, all credit to Luis and the team at Jaguar Space for creating this opportunity. You know, I've never sent anything to the International Space Station or been involved. I've never seen a rocket launch. So, you know, it's so exciting on so many levels. And in terms of what's next at Carmen, you know, the delegation of carmen fellows of 2025 will actually be going to India later this year to Bangalore for the flagship convening of the fellowship program. So we'll be hosted by Satshaw and we'll be really grounding these fellows looking into this, you know, incredibly vibrant ecosystem that of course has so much incredible leadership at a, at a state and governmental level with the amazing work that ISRO is doing, but also this really thriving private sector ecosystem that is, yes, serving so many immediate needs. But again, and I think India is a really interesting example of a country that's straddling, you know, addressing the, you know, very real and emergent needs of that population whilst balancing that with brilliant space exploration and science and research. So, yeah, really excited to be heading to India later this year with our coalition of fellows. And yeah, I suppose the next exciting thing for us as well is as a foundation, I think that we've been quite effective over these years at developing and accelerating change, sort of led by people at an individual level and ensuring that, as I said, they're leveraging their power and influence to create brilliant opportunities like the one that we've spoken about today. But we're also really looking at how we can scale that impact and really create a compelling North Star to encourage and incentivize more responsible behaviors at an institutional level and really incentivize cooperative missions at a large scale. And, and with that, I mean, the next exciting thing for the foundation is we're working on launching the Space Peace Prize. And we really aim for this to be the foremost international recognition for brilliant projects that are accelerating peaceful and cooperative uses of space. And we're doing that with a group of, again, in the spirit of Carmen International and diverse founding partners to ensure that this is not the Carmen Peace Prize, but this is something that has been designed and modeled and reflected in the vision of partners from across the world. So that's something that's very much coming next, which is exciting and just really leveraging all the learnings that we've had over these years and this brilliant opportunity that we've had to just speak to so many smart and as I said, well intentioned humans across the world and say, you know what, there's a real opportunity to create a North Star here that can help to spotlight and incentivize the types of projects that we need in space that are grounded in, you know, sustainable and responsible principles and that are grounded in finding real avenues to cooperate with one another and demonstrating to the world that, you know, particularly during volatile times and uncertain times, that that is something that we need to, you know, be stewards of and proactively, you know, create. Right? We can't just leave the future of space to chance. We need to proactively model the future that we want to see. So, yeah, that's what is quite exciting on the radar for us.

Maria Varmazes (26:54)

That's T minus deep space Brought to you by N2K CyberWire we would love to know what you think of our podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to spacen2k.com we are proud that N2K CyberWire is part of the daily routine of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector. From the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies, N2K helps space and cybersecurity professionals grow, learn and stay informed. As the nexus for discovery and connection, we bring you the people, the technology and the ideas shaping the future of secure innovation. Learn how@n2k.com N2K Senior Producer is Alice Carruth. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We are mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Peter Kilby is our publisher and I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.

Hannah Ashford (28:23)

Foreign.

Dave (28:44)

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