USSF’s Space Warfighting Framework.

Summary

T-Minus Space Daily: USSF’s Space Warfighting Framework Episode Release Date: April 17, 2025 Host: Maria Varmazes, N2K Networks

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Introduction

In this episode of T-Minus Space Daily, host Maria Varmazes delves into the United States Space Force's (USSF) newly released Space Warfighting Framework. The episode also features an insightful interview with Joshua Western, CEO and Co-Founder of Space Forge, discussing the company's innovative efforts in in-space manufacturing and their upcoming missions.

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US Space Force’s Space Warfighting Framework

Maria Varmazes opens the episode by highlighting a significant development in the realm of space defense—the release of the USSF’s Space Warfighting Framework. This comprehensive document outlines the Space Force's vision to achieve and maintain space superiority, ensuring the safety and sustainability of the space domain for the long term.

Key Points:

• Vision of Space Superiority: The framework emphasizes that establishing space superiority is essential for the United States to secure victory in any potential conflict. By exercising space control, the Space Force aims to protect national interests and deter adversaries.

• Primary Mission Areas: The framework identifies three main mission areas:

  1. Orbital Warfare: Managing and controlling assets in Earth's orbit to maintain strategic advantages.
  2. Electromagnetic Warfare: Utilizing the electromagnetic spectrum to disrupt adversary communications and radar systems.
  3. Cyberspace Warfare: Protecting space-based and terrestrial systems from cyber threats.

• Counterspace Operations: Guardians may conduct operations such as terrestrial strikes, orbital strikes, space link interdiction, and both active and passive space defenses under the direction of combatant commanders.

Notable Quote:

General Chance Saltzman, the Chief of Space Operations, emphasizes the framework's purpose:

"It is the formative purpose of the Space Force to achieve space superiority to ensure freedom of movement in space for our forces while denying the same to our adversaries. We must be prepared to employ capabilities for offensive and defensive purposes to deter and if necessary defeat aggressors that threaten our vital national interests."
[02:15]

Implications:

The Space Warfighting Framework solidifies the Space Force's role as a combat-ready branch of the military, integral to joint and combined operations. It underscores the importance of space as a contested domain and the need for robust strategies to maintain dominance.

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Space Industry Updates

Maria transitions to a series of brief updates on recent happenings in the space sector:

• Northrop Grumman's Minotaur 4 Launch: Northrop Grumman successfully launched a Minotaur 4 rocket from Vandenberg Air Force Base for the National Reconnaissance Office's (NRO) NROL 174 mission. This marked the first Minotaur launch from California in nearly 14 years.

• L3Harris Technologies Expansion: L3Harris completed a $125 million expansion at its Fort Wayne, Indiana space manufacturing facility, enhancing capabilities to support the Department of Defense's on-orbit technology needs.

• Blue Origin's Orbital Reef Milestone: Blue Origin announced the completion of a Human in the Loop (HITL) testing milestone for its Orbital Reef space station, ensuring the station's capability to support human life in low Earth orbit.

• Texas State Commission Grants: The Texas State Commission approved $26 million in grants for five space-related projects, including funding for Aegis Aerospace, Icon Technology, Interlunecorp, KULR Technology Group, and Venus Aerospace Corp.

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Interview with Joshua Western, CEO & Co-Founder of Space Forge

Maria interviews Joshua Western, providing an in-depth look into Space Forge's pioneering work in in-space manufacturing and their strategic growth.

Company Overview:

Joshua introduces Space Forge as an in-space manufacturing company focused on producing advanced compound semiconductor substrates—essential components for computer chips. Initially manufacturing on Earth, the company is transitioning production to space to leverage microgravity's advantages.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Early Challenges and Resilience:

   • Forgestar Zero Mission: The company's first mission, Forgestar Zero, faced setbacks with a launch vehicle failure, resulting in only six and a half minutes in space. Despite this, the mission provided valuable lessons in reentry technology.
   • Quote:

     "Forgestar Zero was all about demonstrating the deployment of the reentry technology."
     [12:23]

2. Establishing a Pilot Semiconductor Facility:

   • To sustain operations and meet customer demand, Space Forge established a pilot semiconductor manufacturing line in the UK, enabling continued production on Earth while developing in-space capabilities.
   • Quote:

     "We now have a pilot line semiconductor capability in the UK. So we are already producing semiconductors for customers."
     [10:55]

3. Licensing and Regulatory Hurdles:

   • Securing the necessary licenses for in-space manufacturing was a two-and-a-half-year endeavor, making Space Forge the second company globally (after the US) to obtain such a license.
   • Quote:

     "It's the first time the UK has licensed an in-space manufacturing mission... second to the US as you would expect."
     [13:36]

4. Scaling Up Missions:

   • Following Forgestar Zero and Forgestar One, which was 11 times larger, Space Forge is preparing for Forgestar Two, aiming to scale production capabilities significantly.
   • Quote:

     "Forgestar Two will be about 25 times bigger than Forgestar One."
     [15:55]

5. Breakthroughs in Semiconductor Manufacturing:

   • The company achieved a chemistry breakthrough that maintains the purity of semiconductors produced in space, reducing the number of required missions and increasing operational scale.
   • Quote:

     "We've been able to drastically reduce the amount of missions we need to launch, but at the same time, massively increase the scale of our semiconductor operation."
     [16:42]

6. Company Growth and Organizational Challenges:

   • Space Forge has expanded from 35-40 to 75 employees in two years, transitioning from a startup to a more structured organization while maintaining a balance between semiconductor and spacecraft engineering teams.
   • Quote:

     "Once you get past 50 people, the things that worked just stop working."
     [17:55]

7. Future Aspirations:

   • With plans to produce up to 10 million chips per mission, Space Forge aims to make in-space semiconductor manufacturing both scalable and financially viable.
   • Quote:

     "For each mission we launch, we can produce up to 10 million chips."
     [17:19]

Insights and Conclusions:

Joshua Western's discussion highlights the intersection of technological innovation, regulatory navigation, and strategic growth in advancing in-space manufacturing. Space Forge's journey underscores the potential of leveraging space environments for next-generation manufacturing processes, positioning them at the forefront of the commercial space industry.

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Closing Remarks

Maria wraps up the episode by reflecting on the dynamic developments within the space sector and the vital role of strategic frameworks like the USSF's Space Warfighting Framework. The interview with Joshua Western provides a glimpse into the future of in-space manufacturing and its implications for both the commercial and defense landscapes.

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Stay Informed: For more detailed information on today's topics, including the full Space Warfighting Framework, listeners are encouraged to visit N2K Networks.

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This summary provides an overview of the key discussions and insights from the episode "USSF’s Space Warfighting Framework" of T-Minus Space Daily. For a complete experience, tuning into the full podcast episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Maria Varmazes]

You're listening to the N2K space network.

[Alice Garut]

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[Maria Varmazes]

Jobs.Com today is April 17th, 2025. I'm Maria Varmazes and this is T -T -30 seconds. The Texas State Commission has approved grant applications that total $26 million for five proposed projects. Blue Origin's Orbital Reef Space station has completed a human in the loop testing milestone. L3 Harris Technologies has completed a $125 million expansion at its space manufacturing facility in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Northrop Grumman a Minotaur 4 rocket from Vandenberg for an NRO mission the United States Space Force Releases its Warfighting Framework and our guest today is Joshua Western, CEO and co Founder of Space Forge. And I caught up with Josh at the Space Symposium just the other week to find out the latest on their upcoming ISAM mission, Space Forge 1. So stick around to find out more. Here is your Thursday intel briefing. The United States Space Force released its Space Warfighting Framework today. The document outlines the service's vision for achieving and maintaining space superiority while ensuring the long term safety and sustainability of the space domain. It argues that the United States needs to establish space superiority as a precondition for winning a war and explains that the Space Force does that by exercising space control. The United States Chief of Space Operations, General Chance Saltzman, added to the release of the framework that, quote, it is the formative purpose of the Space Force to achieve space superiority to ensure freedom of movement in space for our forces while denying the same to our adversaries. We must be prepared to employ capabilities for offensive and defensive purposes to deter and if necessary defeat aggressors that threaten our vital national interests. The Framework outlines the three primary mission areas for the Space Force, which are orbital warfare, electromagnetic warfare, and cyberspace warfare. It goes on to say that at the direction of combatant commanders, guardians may conduct counterspace operations including terrestrial strike, orbital strike, space link interdiction, and active and passive space defense. The United States Space Force says the Space Warfighting Framework marks a significant step forward in solidifying the Space Force as a war fighting service and is an integral part of the Joint and Combined Force highlighting the essential role of space superiority for national security. And if you want to read more about it, you can read the full document from the Space Force by following the link in our show. Notes Northrop Grumman launched a Minotaur rocket from California for the National Reconnaissance Office NROL 174 mission earlier this week. It was the first Minotaur launch from the state in nearly 14 years and the NRO gave no indication prior to launch that there would be a livestream of the mission. However, a camera controlled by the University of California, San Diego's Alert California program happened to catch the ascent as expected with NRO missions, little is known about what was sent into orbit. The NRO did share that the NROL 174 consists of, quote, multiple national security payloads designed, built and operated by the NRO. NROL 174 is the third mission launched as part of the Orbital Suborbital Program 3, which is managed by the US Space Force's Rocket Systems Launch program. The program is designed to give the government flexible access to space by buying rides on smaller rockets like the Minotaur 4. L3Harris Technologies has completed a $125 million expansion at its space manufacturing facility in Fort Way, Indiana. L3Harris says that the facility will support the Department of Defense's urgent need for on orbit technology to defend the homeland by building a golden dome around the United States. L3Harris says the investment in facilities in Indiana will enable strategic capabilities to be delivered around the second half of the President's second term. Blue Origin's commercial space station Orbital Reef has completed a Human in the Loop testing milestone. The milestone is part of a NASA Space act agreement originally awarded to Blue Origin in 2021 and focused on the design progress for multiple work sites, floors and translation paths within the station. This ensures a commercial station can support human life in low Earth orbit. The Human in the Loop test scenarios used individual participants or small groups to perform day in the life walkthroughs in the life size mockups of major station components. Participants provided feedback while simulating microgravity operations including cargo transfer, trash transfer, stowage, and worksite assessments. The first modules of Orbital Reef were initially planned to launch in 2027, but it is unclear if Blue Origin is still on track to meet that milestone. The Texas State Commission held a meeting yesterday and voted to approve grant applications that total $26 million for five proposed projects. Aegis Aerospace was approved for up to $10 million Icon Technology up to 694,000. Interlunecorp was approved for 4.8 million, KULR Technology Group will receive 6.7 million and Venus Aerospace Corp. Will receive up to 3.9 million. These latest awards bring the total awards granted by the Texas space Commission to $95.3 million for 14 projects. A $54.7 million balance remains available in the Space Exploration and Aeronautics Research Fund, also known as cerf, for future awards. And that concludes our daily briefing. And by the way, Today is our second anniversary on the air and it happens to be N2K senior producer Alice Garut's anniversary with us here at N2K. So happy anniversary, Alice.

[Joshua Western]

Thanks Maria. Two years and many extra gray hairs.

[Maria Varmazes]

I relate what extra stories do you have for us today?

[Joshua Western]

We have one additional story today in the selected reading section of our show. Notes Japan's asteroid sampling Hayabasa 2 probe has been put into safe mode. Let's hope they figure out that glitch quickly.

[Maria Varmazes]

Yes, and all the links to all the stories mentioned both throughout the show and what Alice just told us now can be found on our website, which is space.n2k.com a2crew if your business is looking to grow your voice in the industry, expand the reach of your thought leadership, or recruit talent, T minus can help. We'd love to hear from you. Just send us an [e-mail] or send us a note through our website so we can connect about building a program to meet your goals.

[Alice Garut]

Cyber threats are evolving every second, and staying ahead is more than just a challenge, it's a necessity. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Threat Locker, the cybersecurity solution trusted by businesses worldwide. ThreatLocker is a full suite of solutions designed to give you total control, stopping unauthorized applications, securing sensitive data, and ensuring your organization runs smoothly and securely. Visit threatlocker.com today to see how a default deny approach can keep your company safe and compliant.

[Maria Varmazes]

I got to catch up with Josh Western from Space Forge at the Space Symposium just last week. Here's our chat.

[Joshua Western]

I am Josh Weston and I'm the CEO and co founder of Space Forge. We're an in space manufacturing company. Really, we're a materials company first and a space company second. We produce advanced compound semiconductor substrates. Those are the inorganic crystals that make up computer chips. Right now we do that here on Earth. From later this year, we'll be starting the process of doing it in space.

[Maria Varmazes]

That's very exciting. Well, thank you for joining me today. You all have had quite a journey the last few years. And I know coming up soon we're having a launch. Can you tell a little bit about what's been going on there?

[Joshua Western]

Yeah, it has been a journey.

[Maria Varmazes]

It has been a journey.

[Joshua Western]

I realize as I say this, I'm sounding almost shell shocked. So. Back in 23, we launched our first mission, Forgestar Zero. Unfortunately, that was on a launch vehicle that didn't quite make it. Got to spend the grand total of six and a half minutes in space. We did get to do a RE entry, not the one we'd hoped to do, unfortunately. But since then we have been through almost a Phoenix level of transformation. What we've been doing at Space Forge is we really focused in on the materials manufacturing. So one of the things I'm really pleased to update your listeners on is we now have a pilot line semiconductor capability in the uk. So we are already producing semiconductors for customers.

[Maria Varmazes]

Oh, wow.

[Joshua Western]

Right here on Earth. Wow. To be open about it, that basically saved the company.

[Maria Varmazes]

Spun up a fab. Basically.

[Joshua Western]

Basically, yes. For lack of a better term, we have reactors that are operational.

[Maria Varmazes]

That's not an easy thing to do.

[Joshua Western]

It is not. We took benefit from some infrastructure that was aging for other people, but for us worked just as an immediate kind of gap fill capability. Wow. That allowed us to sustain the business while also proving out effectively. People want to buy semiconductors. We already know they do. What's really important is the people that we're working with today are buying them because they want to work with the ones that we bring back from space. And that's really critical for us. And that then allowed us to also keep the money coming in to start the development of our upcoming missions as well. So we were in the position where in a couple of years ago we had one mission launching. This year we've got three. A couple of them we're not really talking about. Mostly because we've already been on the pointy end of missions not working out and we don't want to live that again. So we've decided to just talk about them if they're successful. But the capstone mission that's launching later this year is four star one.

[Maria Varmazes]

Yes.

[Joshua Western]

As a platform, it is 11 times larger than the last time that we went to space. So it's a bit of an upgrade.

[Maria Varmazes]

I was going to say, despite everything happening with forgestar00, it's still lessons learned from that, I'm sure. A lot of anything in terms of what you brought to Forgestar one that you can share.

[Joshua Western]

Yeah. So the important thing about Four Star Zero is. All of the lessons we wanted to learn from it were in the manufacturing.

[Maria Varmazes]

Oh, interesting.

[Joshua Western]

So we went from paper to a finished satellite in four and a half months. ForGestar1 is speaking on a mass basis about twice as fast as that on a per kilo build. Okay. But it's also a significant upgrade. ForGestar Zero was all about demonstrating the deployment of the reentry technology. Four Star one still has that objective, but we're also effectively pipe cleaning out our manufacturing payload as well. So this is our opportunity to basically demonstrate that we can create the right environments for scalable semiconductor production.

[Maria Varmazes]

Speed that up in space. Yeah, yeah. And you all also just recently got your license also for forgestar1. So that. Yeah. Can you walk me through what that process has been like? I imagine. Interesting.

[Joshua Western]

That is a very nice way of putting it. Interesting is a very good word. Yeah. I mean it's been. I'm really pleased that we've gotten over the line. So it's the first time the UK has licensed an in space manufacturing mission.

[Maria Varmazes]

Congratulations, by the way. That is huge. That is huge.

[Joshua Western]

I think it also makes us the second country ever to have licensed an in space manufacturing mission. Followed of course you know, second to the US as you would expect. And it's been a journey. It's been a very interesting journey. I have yet to count all of the pieces of paper that it took.

[Maria Varmazes]

Just begin to imagine.

[Joshua Western]

But it has been a two and a half year journey to get that license together. We are really pushing the envelope with basically when the regulator was stood up for space, where they thought the industry was going. So they had incredible foresight on some areas like Mega constellations for telco, etc. And then we come in as two guys in a garage saying hello, we'd really like to make semiconductors in space and then return them to Earth. They were not anticipating that. We've had some interesting points in this journey such as realizing that there's no law about reentrable spacecraft in the uk.

[Maria Varmazes]

It is a bit new.

[Joshua Western]

Yes. We had a point where the CAA updated their definition of the word parachute. Yeah.

[Maria Varmazes]

The distant stare you've got thinking about this, I feel like says a lot, honestly.

[Joshua Western]

It was. I mean there were two people on it full time for two and a half years and I reckon at one point about 45 people across the company touched one part of the license or another.

[Maria Varmazes]

This is the stuff when we talk about the space industry where so much of that sausage is made. It's not the glamorous part but my goodness, it is a lot in there.

[Joshua Western]

I will give an absolute shout out now to Andrew Dunn, our licensing and regulation manager, who like spearheaded all of this effort. He put it very succinctly that without a satellite, you don't have a mission. But without a license, you definitely don't have a mission.

[Maria Varmazes]

So fingers crossed for Forgest one, of course. Wishing you all the best. I'm curious what you're after. Four Star one, what you're thinking about, what's happening there.

[Joshua Western]

So originally, four Star one was going to be a product family in itself. Nah, we are going straight for four Star two. I need to come up with a new system that isn't just numbers. It needs a cooler name. But we are. I like cool names.

[Maria Varmazes]

Okay, fair.

[Joshua Western]

That's the thing I bring to the organization, is coming up with cool names. The thing that we're looking really forward to is basically getting stuck into the development of that platform. So in terms of a scale up from four star one, so four star one is 11 times larger than four star zero. Four star two will be about 25, 25 times bigger than four star one.

[Maria Varmazes]

And so the payloads, all same idea of what you've been doing now are different areas in ISAM or so, still.

[Joshua Western]

Focused on semiconductor production, but that will be at a scale where we can basically make money, for lack of a better term. I think that's a really important thing. People tend to forget that you are sometimes trying to make money in this industry.

[Maria Varmazes]

You are a business.

[Joshua Western]

So one of the critical limitations of Forgestar 1 is it can't produce very much material. Forgestar 2 allows us to produce much greater quantity. But importantly, we also had a chemistry breakthrough in the past intervening years as well. That chemistry breakthrough is that we can actually maintain the purity of the semiconductors that we produce in space for a far longer period of time back here on Earth than we thought. What that's meant is we've been able to drastically reduce the amount of missions we need to launch, but at the same time, massively increase the scale of our semiconductor operation. So right now we're looking at roughly, for each mission we launch, we can produce up to 10 million chips.

[Maria Varmazes]

My goodness. That is. That is quite a scale. All right. With all this, you also. Your company's also growing quite a bit. Tell me a bit about how you all have been doing on that trajectory.

[Joshua Western]

So I think the last time we sat down, we were maybe like 35 to 40 people. We're now 75. Wow. And so when was that? Like maybe 24 months ago. So doubled in size or so since that point. That's been a hell of a journey. We were what, five years ago, two guys in a garage. There is. That's the. Wait, you used the term where the sausage is made.

[Maria Varmazes]

I did, I did.

[Joshua Western]

I'm a big fan of that term, not least because it applies to things like licensing. It also applies to headcount growth.

[Maria Varmazes]

Yeah.

[Joshua Western]

Growing from 50 to 60 people was harder than 2 to 50. Really thing things. Once you get past 50 people, the things that worked just stop working. Like you actually, even though you still want to maintain that startup mindset, you actually have to start implementing things like process. You realize that you can't actually get all of the team anymore around one table. It's actually quite difficult to find a room big enough to hold that amount of people if you just want to do like a monthly update. And at the same time, the company, as well as hiring people, went through a seismic shift, and that seismic shift was again around the semiconductor work. We're now roughly 50, 50 in terms of our engineering landscape. That 50% of our team are material scientists, chemists, semiconductor physicists, and the other half are spacecraft engineering. Whereas in our early days, because it had to be, we were much more weighted towards spacecraft engineering. So not only do you have to speak two different languages, semiconductors and space, you then also have to straddle the way that the customers in those different organizations or different sectors think about working with you. So we've learned the semiconductor language of business as well as the space language of business.

[Maria Varmazes]

And the human management business.

[Joshua Western]

Yeah, and the human management business and time zone management. So one of the other things we've done is establish an office in the U.S. yes, indeed. So that's based out of Florida, led by the incredible Michelle Fleming, our president of Inc. We've just doubled that team in size. We've just brought on atl, our new VP of semiconductors, and we have another couple of people joining us over the coming months as well. So not many companies that can say they've quadrupled in size in a couple of months. So I'm looking forward to that as well. And the way in which globally we're now thinking about semiconductors has also changed.

[Maria Varmazes]

Yeah.

[Joshua Western]

When we start.

[Maria Varmazes]

Why would that be? No, just kidding. I'm sorry, I can give a history lesson.

[Joshua Western]

But even in the time, you know, Space Fortress existed for barely any time. And already the way in which people think about us, you know, when we 2018, two guys from the UK who wanted to make Semiconductors, we got mostly blank looks if we were lucky, if.

[Maria Varmazes]

People, if people understood what a semiconductor was outside of that field. Yeah.

[Joshua Western]

I cannot tell you how good the release of chip war was for our business because all of a sudden, like the secretaries of state, they had it, you know, ministers were reading it, civil servants were reading it, and all of a sudden they went, oh, this is really important. And then alongside that, you also had just the increasing geopolitical tensions. And in a business which works in semiconductors and space, there is never, ever any getting away from the politics. So you have to play to it.

[Maria Varmazes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joshua Western]

And the politics around something like semiconductors and around space today are creating the opportunities for companies like spaceforge.

[Maria Varmazes]

I really respect the fact that also you have to walk that very difficult line in two fields that are very tricky. So that is quite a challenge. But you all are doing so well. So, as always, really thrilled to be able to catch up with you and wish you all the best as you continue. Anything else you want to leave for our podcast today?

[Joshua Western]

To be honest, all I want to say is it's been so good to see the growth that you've gone through, like, as T minus. Like, when I think about how it started out, you know, and we were like one of the really early interviews to see it go from strength to strength. Like, it's really nice to just grow up with you. And it's been, it's been, it's been real and just really enjoyable to catch up with you again.

[Maria Varmazes]

I, I, I feel the same way. Thank you so much for. That's very kind of you to say. Appreciate it. Well, thank you so much.

[Joshua Western]

Cheers.

[Maria Varmazes]

Yeah. Oh, thank you. We'll be right back.

[Alice Garut]

What's the common denominator in security incidents? Escalations and lateral movement. When a privileged account is compromised, attackers can seize control of critical assets with bad directory hygiene and years of technical debt. Identity attack paths are easy targets for threat actors to exploit, but hard for defenders to detect. This poses risk in active directory, entra ID and hybrid configurations. Identity leaders are reducing such risks with attack path management. You can learn how attack path management is connecting identity and security teams while reducing risk with Bloodhound Enterprise, powered by Spectrops. Head to SpectorOps IO today to learn more. Spectrops see your attack paths the way adversaries do.

[Maria Varmazes]

Welcome back. Hey there, stargazers. You got any plans this weekend? Well, if not, you might want to look up because the Lyrid meteor shower will be lighting up the night sky. The shower will be peaking around April 21st to 22nd. That's coming up soon. The Lyrids are one of the oldest known meteor showers, with records of them dating back over 2,700 years. That is some ancient sky magic, and if you happen to catch them, you could expect 10 to 20 meteors per hour. And if you're lucky, maybe even a Lyrid fireball. And those streaks can leave glowing trails that hang in the sky for several seconds. And the meteors come from debris left behind by the comet Thatcher, and they're named after the constellation Lyra, where they appear to originate. The best viewing tip for these and really any other meteor showers, is to head out after midnight, get away from city lights, and let your eyes adjust to the dark for at least 20 minutes. To catch a meteor shower, you don't need anything fancy like a telescope or even binoculars. Just the naked eye, comfy spot, and some patience. Unless you happen to live in a dark sky area like Alice does. She's very lucky. So grab a blanket, maybe a friend, and definitely a thermos of something warm if you're going to be out that late and enjoy the show. The universe is putting on a free light display and you definitely don't want to miss it.

[Joshua Western]

Foreign.

[Maria Varmazes]

That is it for T minus for April 17, 2025, brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. For additional resources from today's report, check out our show [e-mail] we're privileged that N2K and podcasts like T minus are part of the daily routine of many of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector. From the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies. N2K's senior producer is Alice Carruth. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ivan. Peter Kielpe is our publisher and I'm your host, Maria Varmazes. Thanks for listening. We will see you tomorrow.

[Joshua Western]

T Minus.

[Alice Garut]

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