A (3:10)

Oh, that's interesting. I want to put a pin in that and get Back to that. That's a really interesting idea. What about you, Mary?

D (3:15)

So I think something very unique that's a challenge for the workforce right now is finding people that match your culture and match the passion. There's, you know, a lot of different companies and especially as you just brought up with the middle management, sometimes people are adept to environments that they've been in. So as the aerospace and space industry grows and changes, there's new dynamics and new cultures and it's sometimes hard for somebody who's been trained a certain way to adapt to some of the new technologies and new management styles and cultures.

A (3:43)

Interesting. So these are two very interesting unique takes. I want to dive into them both. So, Tahara, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that missing middle. I know that we're not going to solve the world's problems on a podcast and be like, so why do we say the missing middle? Like that is a hard one, but why don't we attempt it anyway? I'm just curious to get your thoughts on what is up with that.

C (4:04)

So I don't know if I can pinpoint it down to one problem. This is why I think there's a lot of things that are working against each other. One is space is a technology industry and there's a lot of competition. And so the things that space is going through outside of NASA, space is, it's still a toddler, it's still new and it's still finding its footing. And so when you think of a more mature industry that kind of has the jobs etched out and the career fields and paths, space doesn't necessarily have that.

A (4:38)

Right.

C (4:38)

Right. So it, there's, it's hard to keep, get one people that are motivated. We talked about culture and what that culture is. Space came from a, a very small industry where the culture was the culture. And you had these few people that really love space and they, they entered it for shared reason and they stayed in it for that. For that reason.

A (5:01)

Yeah.

C (5:02)

Whereas it's getting so big right now and most of space are small startups. There's a lot more small startups than there are, you know, big industrial based companies. How do you redefine or how do you continue to get people that are. I'm doing this because I have a true passion.

A (5:18)

Yeah.

C (5:18)

Versus, this is a job for me for right now.

A (5:20)

And is there space both to coexist right now?

C (5:23)

I think there absolutely is. And that goes. You know, we talked a lot earlier about defining space jobs. What is a space job? Is it Engineers and astronauts or is it much bigger? I argue that it's much bigger and maybe it doesn't need to have a definition because space touches every aspect. So if you think traditional career spill tilt, we do that in space. We have space artists, we have space authors, we have space policy. I'm a policy person. You have space marketing, communication. So all of these traditional industries for career fields can be touched in space. We need the doctors, we need lawyers, we need all of the above within our own little ecosystem here in space.

A (6:10)

Absolutely. Yeah. And you actually dovetailed really nicely into the culture discussion, Mary, that I'd love you to also dive actually. Both of you too. But Mary, since you brought it up first, you get to go first because this is a really fascinating point also. So talking about. Yeah, tell me more about the culture thing before I start diving into that more.

D (6:28)

Yeah, so I guess coming from a small startup culture was incredibly important. You know, I was one of the, I think first 10 employees and now we're at under just around 100, just a little under 100. So we've seen, I've seen the changes that have happened and the culture shifts and trying to protect that culture.

A (6:43)

Yeah.

D (6:44)

And a culture of innovation, but at the same time collaboration and having to learn with some of the pains of growing and finding the correct talent and making sure that, you know, we keep our priorities straight and keep our people happy. Yeah, yeah, so, and I completely agree with what you were saying. You know, the ecosystem of space has changed so dramatically. Every job has some relation to space jobs at this point. And I think it's really important that you get the passionate. You know, it's not always the most highly educated person, it's the passionate person. And it's not just engineers anymore because that was kind of the idea. You were an astronaut or an engineer when you worked in space and now it's your HR people, your marketing people, your artists. You know, there is a job for everyone in space. You just have to be passionate. So finding the culture, the company culture that you align to I think is really important. Especially with like retention and getting people in the door, but also staying there.

A (7:42)

Yeah, it goes to both the points that you were making about why people leave in mid career. People get frustrated with pace of things in either direction. It's too fast, it's too slow. I mean there are all sorts of reasons. But I'm curious if there are any macro trends on that one or if that's too broad to say. But I'm curious about trends in culture within the space community, so to speak. Any thoughts on that?

C (8:05)

I'll say. Just kind of dovetailing off of what Mary said. I've been doing space for 20 over 25 years, but this is my first industry job. And so I've been in government my entire career. I knew. So my last job was at the White House. I knew going in that it had an expiration date as a political appointee. So I started looking day one, I knew that my next step was going to be outside of the government. It was important for me to find a culture that would fit for me, that would take the what I've learned in government and two things. One, help me expand on that, but also compliment it so I can use the skills that I've already developed, but also learn new skills. But the culture was. That was the hardest part of it because I didn't want to go into an environment one I knew I wanted to go small. We're both in small kind of startup companies around the same number of people were right over 100. They're right under 100.

A (9:04)

Yeah, it's a sweet spot for me.

C (9:06)

I did not want to go. For me, it didn't want to go to a bigger company where I'd be lost in the shuffle while I'm trying to learn the space industry part of it. So finding the culture, but also finding a environment where the employees were genuinely happy and passionate and believed in the mission was extremely important for me. And so that took time, that took research, that took talking to people. But what I found is that there's a lot of companies that have that. Because people in space, you really have to be passionate about doing something that for a lot of us have never been done before. So it's not something we've seen. It's not something that road and that pathway is already etched out. And then three, a culture that is inviting to learn from me as much as I'm going to learn from them. So help me let you know what you need as much as you're going to let me know what I need for fulfillment. So it was the give and take that that was important.

A (10:09)

Yeah, absolutely. Anything to add to that, Mary?

D (10:12)

So I think when it comes to the culture, there's, you know, it's so important because technology is booming. There's consistent changes in technology. There's an expansion. Everybody has a niche, everybody has their own mission statement. And the industry is growing. And we were just talking about how we trade. You know, like sometimes you'll have an employee, they'll switch to another company and you want that retention. You want them to learn things, bring new skill sets. So you also welcome people from the industry. So keeping that education, keeping that culture of collaboration and keeping that open communication, I think is really important for the industry as a whole. And then applying it within your company and within your leadership is really important.

B (10:54)

Foreign.

A (11:00)

We'll be right back after this quick break.

B (11:07)

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A (13:16)

Yeah, I wanted to go back to this idea of there are so many more jobs that are space jobs than people realize. And so when we start as we should and must, broadening that scope, how do we make these jobs attractive to people who aren't space people while also making sure that the culture of these organizations stays the same? I mean that is an extremely thorny problem. But I mean getting a space job for people who are like space nerds, it's an easy sell. But when we have all these different roles that are maybe non what people might consider non traditional, they're going I'm not sure I really want to go to that, but that's a Problem because we need them. So how do we do this? How do we bridge that gap?

D (13:57)

I think that's how you find the best talent. Because they have to be passionate. I don't have any engineering background. I do marketing and sales. But I am very passionate about our business and very passionate about our mission. So I don't think you can have one without the other. And you know, that doesn't mean that my passion would align with every other space company. Yeah, it, you know, fortunately it aligns via. And I think that's important so that when you go into work every day, you're going in there with a passion, you're going in there with a drive and you're bringing your skill set and then you're really excited to enhance your skillset and share it with others.

A (14:28)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

C (14:30)

You've heard me say it a couple times. Space people traditionally like to go to space events to talk to space people about space things. The answer to me is we've got to stop that. I make it a point to go to two non space events every year to talk about space to people that aren't traditionally talking about space. Learn about other industries, whether that's automobile, aviation, whatever, you know, oil, gas, and talk about space and how space touches that industry is important. And so when it comes to our branding, space doesn't brand well outside of NASA. Everyone knows who NASA is, but does anyone, does everyone know what we actually do on the International Space Station?

A (15:11)

Yeah, yeah.

C (15:11)

The people know, you know, that we're not doing space just to leave Earth. We're doing it to make life on Earth better.

A (15:17)

Yeah.

C (15:17)

You know, and once we get better at branding what it is, what our passion is, what it is that we're doing in space, I think it will be easier to see yourself in a job that you didn't even know existed. It's hard to dream that, you know, it's easy to dream to be a doctor or nurse. When you turn on the tv, you have TV shows with doctors and nurses and lawyers and even astronauts. But you don't, you don't see space lawyers on. Yeah, not yet. Not yet. So it's about getting to the average person all the opportunities that there are in space. And that comes with branding space and everything that we do and all the wonderful and goodness that it, that it brings to, to everyone and every day to bring that and make it more just normalized.

A (16:07)

Yeah.

D (16:07)

And I think it has to go the other way too. You know, we have to spend as space people, we need to spend more Time at other events and other networking. But we also need to bring people in. So when you have people in the medical field or the accounting field or hospitality, even bringing them into the space events so that they can see their place, so that it enhances the dream, but also it gives a brand new perspective to what our businesses need that we're not going to get in our bubble.

C (16:31)

I agree.

D (16:32)

So I think it has to go both ways.

C (16:33)

I agree. It's a great.

A (16:35)

I feel like that's a really good call to action for people listening is like to really get outside of the space silo and expand in that way. And I think that that's a great challenge we should put to people like go do that.

D (16:47)

Some people don't have access to space either. So if you have the access, bring them. Bring them with you on the ride and maybe you can incite something that they didn't even know they had.

A (16:55)

Yeah, that's a great idea. And I know part of the reason you all are speaking here at spacecom is to talk about the building the skilled workforce. And I thought it was really interesting that specifically the word skilled was in there because that is a really interesting, important addition on top of the normal discussion that we all have about that. I'm curious if that distinction is something that requires a different approach. Thoughts on that?

C (17:20)

I think so. I'll take. I'll add a word to it. The skilled technical workforce, which has not been defined is an important factor because it's as mission critical as the STEM part of space. It's not an either or, it's an and we need both. And until we realize what is a space job. Is a space job an astronaut? Yes. But it's also the tractor driver that's bringing the rocket on the field. The other panelists on our panel was from blue and I told her I went to Texas and I went into this warehouse and it's where they packed the parachutes that are bringing the capsules down. Right. And that's a space job. And who would like. I would have never thought that. So when you try to define space job, the answer is yes. That could be a space job too.

A (18:12)

Yeah.

C (18:13)

So. So kind of, kind of getting back to one of your other questions earlier on the. On the statistics with skilled technical workforce or. Or STEM spaces is. Is an Asian industry. It's 68 of space workers. For the jobs that we do define are over 55.

A (18:32)

Wow.

C (18:32)

That's huge. And there's no other industry that has these. These big numbers. Right.

A (18:37)

Wow.

C (18:37)

So how do we, how do we get it Again, it's not a problem with, with recruitment. How do we, how do we get younger people to stay in this, in space? And I think the way to doing that is, is to get kind of what Mary was, was alluding to. Let's get space into these neighborhoods that do not see space every day. So in Florida it's easy. They have all these launches, California launches. You know, there's space companies, but there's, you know, southern Idaho or, you know, there's these communities that they don't get to see it on a daily basis. And we've got, we, this, this, this industry have to do a little bit better job purposely going out into these neighborhoods, these communities that don't have this kind of access.

A (19:24)

Yeah.

C (19:24)

To space. And, and, and that's what, that's what we do. We get that, that passion, that love and early so that it's not a big leap when they're, you know, in elementary. What do you want to be when you grow up? And you know, it's not just, you know, I want to be a lawyer, doctor, astronaut. Oh, I'm going to be a space lawyer. I'm going to be, you know, a mathematician on the ISS because, you know, we're going to be living either here abroad or, you know, in orbit.

A (19:50)

Yeah, yeah. Dream big on that one.

D (19:53)

So many of the newer companies, you know, they rely on technology that hasn't been around that long, you know, 10, 20 years. So that for workforce doesn't have the skill sets. So you've got things like additive manufacturing, you've got AI and cyber things that you have to worry about as a space company. But it's not a necessary skill set. It wasn't and now it is. So I think kind of dissecting the space industry so that people can see all the different parts and pieces of, you know, of what makes it a company, what makes it successful. Technology is going to be really important so you can train early.

A (20:21)

Yeah.

D (20:22)

Because, you know, things like additive manufacturing that didn't exist. Metal additive manufacturing that's brand new.

A (20:27)

That is.

D (20:28)

And you have to have specialized techs for that.

C (20:30)

That's.

D (20:30)

You don't have people that are 55 years into their career, you know, looking to do that. So I think it's giving people the opportunity to learn new skills and making it apparent and do the branding that we really do need to do.

C (20:42)

Yeah.

A (20:42)

Great calls to action there. For all of us listening there, I want to make sure you both get the last word. Anything we missed that you wanted to raise or share with the audience. By all means.

D (20:51)

I think space is for everyone, and we welcome you here.

C (20:54)

Yeah, there's a place in space for, for everyone. You are welcome, you're wanted, and more, more importantly, you're needed. All the skill sets. I think one of the biggest questions when I do panels like this, and we got it twice today, is how do I get in?

A (21:08)

Yeah.

C (21:08)

And so I, like, if I, if I'm going to leave, it's the networking for those of you that are not in space and for those of you that are in space, the mentoring to make it known. Like, okay, you're doing this now, but have you thought about doing something else? And on the other side, it's the, you know, if you're, if you're new in space, you're a young professional, go outside of what you're doing. Talk to someone doing something totally different outside of what you're currently doing and, and get some advice, like, what does a day in your life look like?

D (21:39)

Yeah.

C (21:40)

What do you do? How do you fill your time?

A (21:42)

Amazing. Well, thank you both so much for sharing your expertise with me. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much.

D (21:48)

Foreign.

A (21:57)

That is T minus deep space brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. We'd love to know what you think of our podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. If you like the show, please share a rating and review in your podcast app or you can send an email to spacen2k.com we're proud that N2K CyberWire is part of the daily routine of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector. From the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies, N2K helps space and cybersecurity professionals grow, learn and stay informed. As the nexus for discovery and connection, we bring you the people, the technology and the ideas shaping the future of secure innovation. Learn how@n2k.com N2K Senior Producer is Alice Carouse. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We are mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Peter Kilpe is our publisher. And I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. Foreign.

B (23:42)

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C (24:23)

Foreign.

B (24:30)

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