← Take-Away with Sam Oches
Take-Away with Sam Oches
Firebirds CEO Steve Kislow on the tools beyond price that create value
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- [00:00]
A
Are you a leader at an emerging restaurant chain that's ready to level up? Then create the event for emerging restaurateurs Is yous ultimate destination. This July 20th through 22nd, join your fellow restaurant entrepreneurs for three action packed days of connection, inspiration and growth. Meet potential new partners through our Speed Dating Style one to one meetings and get face to face with potential investors at the Investment Summit. Keynote speakers include Netflix star Phil Rosenthal, Chipotle founders Steve Ells and Panda Express founders Andrew and Peggy Cheung. This one of a kind restaurant event is set against the stunning backdrop of Terranea Resorts California coastline. And hey, bring the whole family for vacation while you're at it. By registering for Create Today, you'll unlock specially discounted prices for Disneyland. Don't miss your chance to connect, innovate and grow your business. Register for create today@create.nrn.com welcome to Takeaway with Samokus, a podcast for leaders of growing restaurant companies looking to take their businesses to the next level. In nearly two decades covering restaurants, I've gained access to some of this industry's most influential decision makers and I'm letting you in on the conversations. In today's episode, you'll hear from the CEO of a growing casual chain about the tools it's leveraging beyond price to provide value for its guests, and about the many different ways it engages its guests with unique brands. Branding Steve Kislo is the CEO of Firebirds Wood Fired Grill, a polished casual chain based in North Carolina that now has nearly 70 locations in 21 states. Steve started as a GM with Firebirds more than 20 years ago before working his way up to the Chief Executive position, and he has overseen an evolution of the brand that's always protected the quality of its menu and its hospitality. First and foremost, Firebirds sits on the upscale side of the casual dining spectrum, but it's still committed to providing value to all manners of guests, from kids and families to couples on dates to business lunches. Steve joined the podcast to talk about how Firebirds is uniquely connecting with all of these guests and providing a value driven experience. In this conversation, you'll learn more about why your branding opportunity begins with your storefront, why your beverage program demands as much creativity as your food, and and how technology can help you ratchet up your hospitality as a differentiator. If you learned something from this episode, go follow Takeaway wherever you listen to podcasts and leave some feedback, it's the best way to get these lessons into the hands of a fellow restaurant leader. By the way, before I jump into My conversation with Steve I want to remind you about our upcoming Create event for emerging restaurateurs. This annual event is designed specifically for smaller brands in growth mode and and it features dynamic, fast paced education and networking opportunities that can level up your growth journey. Join us at the gorgeous and inspiring Terranea Resort outside Los Angeles this July 20th through 22nd for an unforgettable experience that is free for restaurant operators. Head to create.NRN.com to register today. Jumping now into my interview with Firebirds CEO Steve Kislo. Also, don't forget to stick around after the interview as I will share my five takeaways from this discussion. Actionable insights that you can take with you on the go. Okay. Steve Kislo, the CEO of Firebirds Wood Fire Grill. Steve, thanks for joining me today.
- [03:24]
B
Of course. Good to see you as always, Sam.
- [03:27]
A
Likewise, Steve. You know, I don't have to say this out loud, but I'm going to Firebirds, one of my all time favorites. Certainly am there a lot with my family. It's right down the road from us. We've got a great relationship with all you guys have done with Alex's, which we will get into. But Steve, I, I don't know, I can't, I can't imagine. There are too many people out there who are not familiar with this brand. But if there are folks listening in who maybe on the west coast not as familiar with Firebirds, tell us just quick, what's this brand all about?
- [03:54]
B
Yeah, so first of all, 69 locations right now across 21 states. Pretty excited to be entering our 22nd state here in the next couple of months in Kentucky. We'll get a little bit more into growth later, I'm sure. But the brand operates in, in what's known as the polished casual space. Definitely point of differentiation in the name, right? Firebirds Wood Fired Grill. The wood fired grill is that point of differentiation. We have a, an open wood fire grill in our kitchens where there's no real on, off switch. We are loading, you know, local woods from the local communities all day long into the fire. Anything coming off that fire has got that kind of charred, smoky, wood kissed flavor. We incorporate that into, you know, many of our food items as well as into the bar items as well. Fresh bar program. You know, you're in a Firebirds when you walk in and you see that beautiful back bar display with all the lit up bottles back there. And we definitely incorporate that fire into the, into the bar as well. You know, we, you know, I think the open kitchen adds a Certain energy to the experience. So guests come into the restaurant, they get to kind of see the show happening. And that's a. That's a little bit unique, for sure. And it adds an energy in all of our dining rooms that, you know, while we're polished, I think that there's, you know, that there's. There's an element of casual when the guests feel like they're sort of part of what's going on around there. And. And it certainly adds an element to that. We're. We're very family friendly because, you know, kids and families like to kind of see all those things going. Going on around them as well. So I think, in a nutshell, you know, no veto vote. The menu is, you know, primarily those beautiful proteins coming off the grill. Seafood steaks, chicken, you know, some wonderful desserts, oversized salads, where, you know, just as much of a great experience for lunch as we are for dinner, as well as our, you know, takeout experiences and catering as well.
- [05:57]
A
And 25 years now, right? You guys are celebrating 25th anniversary. That's a big deal. I mean, by the way, 69 locations in 25 years, I think is really impressive. Impressive. But 25 years of growth that you guys have been going through. Now, tell me about the 25th anniversary. First off, how are you guys kind of recognizing this milestone for the brand?
- [06:18]
B
Yeah, so technically, 25 years in December of 2025. So. So the end of 25 was our 25th anniversary. I guess you could say we're in our 26th year now. We recognized it all year last year. I think the, you know, the thing that we celebrate the most as a brand, not just in the 25th anniversary, but in general, has been the evolution of the brand. I think it's what we celebrate. I think it's probably what we're most proud of over 25 years. It can be easy for a brand to get just stale if you continue to do the same things over and over and again. We listen to our guests, we listen to our team members, and we have evolved. And that doesn't just mean the food evolving. That means the facilities have evolved over time. The bar program has evolved over time. The menu has evolved over time. Uniforms. I think if you're not changing, eventually you're dying. I think the reason why we remain so relevant today and we've been able to continue to grow has been that evolution. And I like to often say it is an evolution. It's not a revolution. So it's not that the change is changed to where somebody walks in and says, I don't recognize this anymore. They still recognize it as the Firebirds experience, but it changes slowly over a long period of time so that we can stay relevant. Relevant. There's some wonderful restaurants and other brands that continue to enter our markets. And if you don't stay relevant, you know, I think eventually you just go away. And that's why you see that in a lot of brands out there.
- [07:48]
A
Keeping this brand modern and fresh. What, what does that entail? Because obviously there's so many different elements here. I remember what, five, six years ago, you guys went through kind of a significant overall of the prototype. You did, you did some kind of build out changes. But you know, when you go from branding to architecture to obviously menu, there's so much that needs to be considered when you update and modernize a brand. So if you're not revolutionizing, revolutionizing things, you're just evolving things. How do you do that?
- [08:16]
B
I think it's little things over a long period of time. But like for example, our, if you, if you just look at num, firebirds number one and you know, firebirds number 60 something, 65, 68, whatever it may be, because you're right, it was, it was, I don't know, it was probably seven or eight years ago now that we've, you know that the facility has changed a little bit more significantly. But if you look at number one and you look at number 65, you're going to be able to tell that it's a Firebird no matter which one you're in. Number 65. The color palette has started to get a little bit brighter. You know, we want to incorporate more of the brighter blues versus the darker reds. We're letting more natural daylight in. You're seeing our bars change slightly to where it's still the beautiful back bar display, but the back bar display is now double sided where you can see it in the dining room and there's a window on the other side of it. So as cars are driving by, you're also able to kind of drive by and go, oh man, look how cool that restaurant looks. Because you can see, you know, out there, you know, on the street, which you can see there. We've moved some of the fire features to not only have fire features inside the restaurants, but to have these beautiful sort of, you know, a hurricane of fire type beacon, you know, fire feature on the outside of all of our restaurants. Again, driving by. If you're going to have the name Fire in your, your, you know, your actual name Firebirds plus Wood fired grill in the, in the tagline, you better have some fire. So I think as people drive by and they see that, you know, it begins to click because you're right, we're not necessarily flying under the radar anymore with 69 locations over 21 states. But I do think there are people still out there that don't know the brand. You know, like, you know, I could be standing on an elevator with somebody and, and, and they ask where I work. And depending on what, you know, geography, I'm in. If I say firebirds, I still sometimes have to have that, that conversation ready to go so I can explain the concept to them. And from time to time we do enter a new market. So I think it needs to be clear when people drive by that this is a, you know, a beautiful build out. They've got definitely fire in the name. They've got the, the fire feature on the outside and they able to just see in that instant as they drive by what they can expect when they come in.
- [10:27]
A
Probably told you this before, Steve, but you know, I drive by firebirds almost on a daily basis. I just roll my window down to get the smell. I mean, just the smell of the wood fire, it's, I mean, it's triggering in a great way. Right? Like it brings so much nostalgia. And then of course, when I'm inside of Firebirds, you're just kind of immersed in it. So to your point, fire being so key to it, that's a multi sensory experience.
- [10:51]
B
Yeah, you're teeing me up too well here. But you're right. I often say that the firebirds experience starts in the parking lot or to your point on the street that we're located. But you get out of your car and that smell of that burning wood hits you in the face immediately. And everybody has a different experience with that because you start to think again, nostalgically of a campfire. Maybe it was s' mores and a camp that you went to as a kid, or maybe it's, you know, sitting around a campfire and, you know, cooking hot dogs or whatever. Whatever it is, fire invokes emotion. Fire creates, no matter where you put it, it creates a gathering of people. And there's something pretty special about that for sure. You think of the way that, you know, cavemen and women cooked thousands of years ago. It was over an open fire and here we are doing it again thousands of years later in a pretty special way, you know, and continuing to incorporate, you know, bold ingredients and great looking presentations. So yeah, fire is, is what we lean into. You know, obviously there are other concepts out there that, that cook over a, over a wood fired grill. I've never seen anybody out there that leans into it quite the way that we do.
- [12:03]
A
All right, I want to talk about your growth, but I think to set the stage for that conversation, we have to kind of talk more broadly about what's going on in casual dining in America. Right. Because, you know, of course, full service side of things hit so hard by Covid. But the recovery has been interesting because to my perspective, you see this especially in 2025 numbers, there's kind of been this difference between sort of the haves and the have nots in casual dining. So there's been a lot of conversation around Chili's, Texas Roadhouse, Olive Garden, Applebee's, obviously some of your competitors that are at a much bigger scale. But I'm looking into Firebirds numbers. Your numbers are also far outpacing the broader industry. So much of the industry has been actually relatively flat for the last couple of years. I'm curious to get your perspective on that. Like, what is going on in full service dining today, casual dining or polished casual dining? That seems to be kind of making that chasm between brands that are doing very, very well. And there's a lot out there that just aren't doing as well. And how is Firebirds? How are you guys managing to stay in that pack that's really kind of keeping pace with the others that are top performing performers?
- [13:09]
B
I think there's a couple things going on out there. First of all, I think the consumer is far more educated. And by educated, I don't necessarily mean school, but I think their palates are more educated and they're more interested in value. And value is not an because we work polished casual brand. So we're a little bit more, not a lot more expensive, but a little bit more expensive than some of the brands that you just mentioned. But the consumer also appreciates more than just price. It's total experience. And you get that through a combination of hospitality, quality of food, and all of that. You can divide by price, and that equals an aggregate of value. And I think we deliver on the value. We kind of sit in the middle somewhere. You've got all the way to the right side of that graph is the fine dining folks that have 75 and $100 steaks that are served a la carte and all the way to the left side of the menu. You know, you've, you've got the casual diner dining players, some of which you just mentioned. And we're kind of in the middle where it's like, all right, for a few more dollars, I'm going to be able to get this much nicer facility, maybe some finer points of service, hospitality, and it's going to feel a little bit better. And when I leave, I still don't feel like I got ripped off. I still feel like there was a good value there for what I just got. So we focus on that value. We focus on those nuances of fine dining, but we do it in a far more approachable way right in the middle. So I think by continuing to focus there and again, we're never going to, you know, we're never going to compromise quality. We're the highest quality, the highest possible ingredients that we get. Those proteins cooked over that wood fired grill is definitely unique to us. I think the consumer comes in and sees too. They can, there's no veto vote on the menu. Everybody can get something that they're satisfied with on our menu. And they're not going to say, ooh, this is just Italian food, or, ooh, this is just Asian food, or whatever it is. You know, they're going to be able to get it, they're going to be able to get it on the menu. So I think value is a big part of it. And I think the consumers palates and you know, their, their educated palates and their just ability to recognize the value and what it looks like has helped us to stay relevant in that case.
- [15:23]
A
Once at that point, you know, I find value perhaps even in just the broader experience. You know, again, I've gone several times with my whole family now. You know, I've got three kids and, you know, we're kind of like a nuclear bomb went off at a table when we go to a restaurant, right? Like, I'm literally trying to grab all the food up off the floor and toys are getting thrown across the room. So what's so fascinating about Firebirds is, you know, you guys do have a much more elevated interior where you does feel almost like you're in a fine dining restaurant. But the experience, your wait staff and the vibe of the place, I never feel out of place when I'm with my whole family and we're kind of dropping that nuclear bomb. So I think the family dining being a big aspect to that, that value of feeling like I'm in a place where I'm respected, getting taken care of and I feel like everything is on that kind of elevated level simultaneously. I can let my hair down a little bit. You know, I can kind of relax and, and not fear that it's maybe a little bit too uppity. So it's like whereas value, certainly as a price point, you guys are probably providing value in as much in that experience.
- [16:23]
B
I think there's a couple of things there. I'm a father of four. So the same nuclear bomb goes off, you know, when, when we go to restaurants. But a lot of times our kids are the ones that are making the decisions for us where we go to eat. And you know, our, I mean, fire the Firebirds experience is one that caters to children, but done somehow in a polished way to where mom and dad are like, okay, great, we don't have to go to the usual suspects in casual dining because we have the kids and we're about to set off that nuclear bomb. We get to go into the restaurant. There's still a kids menu, award winning kids food that's also a little bit healthier. With our kids live well program on our menu, you've got our junior chef program where all of a sudden the kids are also engaged in the process, in how things are prepared and what's being prepared and what ingredients are going to be used. And then we incorporate our core values into the kids menu that they're reading. So they start asking mom and dad questions about like, you know, what's this, what's this humility? Or you know, what do they mean by integrity? And you think about the conversations that are happening at the table because, you know, Jenny and Bobby are looking at the piece of paper and they're reading things and they're asking questions and it's, and it's, you know, it's creating some much better family dynamic and talking points at the table. So I think that's pretty unique. And then, you know, part of the other things that you touched on a little bit is there's so many ways that our consumer is interacting with the brand more so today than 20 years ago for sure. Which is another way that we've evolved. I mean, we, there, there was a time where we were probably 1% off premise and today we're 15, 16% off premise. And we do that in a lot of different ways from first party delivery to third party delivery, to traditional takeout to catering. You know, so we're, we're kind of, you know, instead of just being part of the, the starting rotation that the consumer has, as far as the different restaurants that they go to on a regular basis, there are now other ways that our guests are interacting with the Brand. It could be family meals on Friday night, which used to have to always be pizza. And now you can actually go to Firebirds and get, you know, some elevated food and bring it home at a really pretty impressive price point and value that we can become part of that rotation for. Not just, you know, dinner out or, or lunch out from the office.
- [18:42]
A
Going back to the evolution part of things. Let's talk about that from a menu perspective because again, the space you occupy, I think there are a lot of expectations on the menu. Right. So if I walk into Firebirds, I'm going to expect a certain amount of steak options, I'm certainly going to expect a burgers, I'm certainly going to expect salmon and chicken. Right. All of which you have. But as you do modernize the brand and evolve it, what have you done with the menu to kind of push the envelope a little, but while also kind of respecting that customers are going to have things that they always want at a restaurant like Firebirds.
- [19:20]
B
Yeah, that is a, that's the million dollar question that we, that we talk about all, all year long when, whenever there's any sort of menu adaptation or evolution in the food because somebody's favorite is always that one item that we're considering retiring or replacing with something else. You know, we would never do it on the, on the favorites. You know, the things are the number one, two and three in a category are not going to come off the menu. But we may also, we may look at them in a regular basis and figure out what we can do to make that specific menu item better. Whether it be increasing portion or maybe we find that it's a little bit too saucy, or maybe today's consumer is eating a little bit different than they did 10 years ago from a caloric standpoint. So maybe there's a way to, you know, add an additional health halo to a menu item that was already there that doesn't, you know, impact it negatively at all, but makes it maybe better. So those are some of the things that go into it. And then I think the one thing that I, the, the thing that always comes to my mind is the coconut shrimp. So it's not on the menu today. And I believe it's probably been, I don't know, maybe five years or so since we've taken it off. Maybe even a little bit less than that. But you know, there was a time when coconut shrimp was like number probably two or three. Well over, over 20 years, coconut shrimp was not the most popular item anymore and it became the last you know, item in the appetizer section, again, it's still somebody's favorite. So there's a certain amount of respect that we have to have and say, all right, what does that consumer do when they come into the restaurant and realize that the coke. Because, look, I think coconut shrimp was really. I mean, in all restaurants, you'd find it on. On menus all over the place in the 90s, and today, it's on a lot less menus. Our coconut shrimp was the best out there. I mean, I stand by it today. But you've got to make room if you're going to incorporate new menu items, you've got to be able to make room one way or another, not only. Not only real estate on the menu necessarily, but also in order to be able to execute certain things, you can't continue to add menu items without, you know, removing some of the complexity. So, you know, we. We had had a lot of luck with this chimichurri shrimp that's on the menu today. It's beautiful, whipped, you know, whipped goat cheese on the bottom of the plate top with this incredible chimichurri. And it's a grilled shrimp product, which a lot of people are looking for more proteins off the grill now versus fried. So that replaced the coconut shrimp a year ago. And there's. Every once in a while, you still get somebody that's calling in and saying, what happened to the coconut shrimp? How dare you? How could that come off the menu? And, you know, and of course, we. What about the grilled chimichurri shrimp? It's an amazing item. So I think those are conversations that we have often, and hopefully when somebody comes in and one of their favorites may have been removed or changed, they recognize that there might be something new and even more exciting that's on the menu for them to change. So I think it's just something that you have to continue to lose sleep over, and if you don't, then you're not thinking hard enough about it.
- [22:16]
A
One of those people who called might have been my wife, but I'll make sure to point her to the chimichurri shrimp next time. So I know you guys have done some work in beverage, and I'm really fascinated by beverage in general, just because you've seen it too, right? Which is. Across the industry, beverage has become just an incredible channel for restaurants of all kinds to invest in and. And really ramp up, you know, with innovation. Consumers are clamoring for beverage innovation. What has that the beverage side of the menu looked like for you guys, as you, as you update things.
- [22:44]
B
Yeah. In the last 15 years or so has been really interesting in the beverage world because you know, your three main categories, you know, in the bar, specifically liquor, beer and wine, have all been, have, you know, it's been this war between the three of them and who, you know, which one is going to be king on, on what menus. And it was, it was wine for a long time and then the craft beer scene came in and that became, you know, the biggest thing. And really for the last five years or so, it's been the liquor category that has been growing the most. And it doesn't mean that we don't continue to pay attention to both wine and make sure that we have the right offering and beer as well, so that we make sure that we have the right local beers as well as the traditionals. But those spirits have been, have seen significant growth over the years. And you know, we have leaned into that for sure. We've also leaned in, as I said earlier, about the actual utilizing, you know, instead of just having our mixers be, you know, fresh grapefruit juice. It's fresh charred grapefruit juice. So we're taking those grapefruits and we're taking that wood fire grill and we're incorporating, you know, layers of flavor into the grapefruit juice that's coming from the wood fired grill. For some of these craft cocktails that we're making, it might be a garnish that gets set on fire before it comes out to the table so that there's the smell of, you know, burning cinnamon, clove or, or rosemary that's coming off the drink. So I think it's, it's, it's taking the bar program and being as, as deliberate and creative in it as you do the food. You know, again, I said it already, but the consumer is far more educated. Their palates are continuing to evolve. The things that they're watching on television is giving them ideas to try new things at home when it comes to cocktails. And you know, you've got to be able to meet them somewhere in the middle there so that you're providing some of those things for them at the restaurant. You can't, it's not just, you know, vodka and orange juice anymore. There has to be, you know, more layers to it than that. And then of course, the, you know, the spirit free drinks, you know, people are drinking less soft drinks and they want to see more in, you know, today's younger generations are drinking, they're drinking less. It's probably a good thing, but yet they still want creative beverage choices. So we continually, on a seasonal basis are looking at our mocktail selections and they change, you know, several times a year so that we're staying relevant on the mocktail category as well. And there's great options for people that maybe still want a creative beverage, but don't necessarily want something with alcohol in it. So I think you're like anything else, you've got to make sure that you have a little something for everybody on the menu.
- [25:21]
A
Sure. Then sticking with this idea of evolving things, let's talk about technology because obviously the evolution in technology industry wide has been remarkable. And that's not just relegated to the convenience oriented QSR chains. That's everybody can really leverage great technological innovations to improve things. How much is Firebirds incorporating technology either into front of house or just back of house experience?
- [25:49]
B
Yeah, I think technology, the tricky part is like figuring out what is the best stuff that you, you know, you should have in the restaurant. You make sure that it's not technology for technology's sake. It's got it. You have to really understand how to make the platforms dance. You have to understand what is best to be used for your, for your brand. You've got to make sure that the technology is there to remove friction for whether it's your team members or for the consumer. Can you make either or both of their experience is better? Right. How can you make the consumers experience better by using the technology? Or how can you make the team members experience better and remove friction from either one of those? Sometimes that may be collecting data and using that data to either market the right things to the right people or make their experience that much better when they come in. Because I know by using that data and having that incorporated into technology that you love Woodford Bourbon so that when you come into the restaurant, I already know that Sam loves Woodford Bourbon. And I'm going to suggest a cocktail, a new cocktail that we have with Woodford because I glanced at that profile before you came into the restaurant or the marketing segmentation. When you are getting messages through our loyalty club, you don't typically react to messages about wine. So let's not send you messages about something new that we're doing with wine. But you do react to messages about steak. So feeding people the things that they want to see most about I think is an important part of that. So I think that's. But at the same time, I think we are all about human connection. We're about human touch points. This is still today and always will be the hospitality business. So I think we have to just be careful that everybody's face is not buried in an iPad walking through a dining room. This is still about hospitality. And hospitality is the way we make people feel. And we just have to make sure that we're using technology the right way and that doesn't get in the way of hospitality.
- [27:49]
A
So first off, I think you're stalking because Woodford Reserve is my go to bourbon. So that was just, I was, you just pegged me as a Woodford guy. You just looked at me, you're like, I know bourbon. That guy likes to drink.
- [27:58]
B
I love it. Focus and I'll be happy to hear about that.
- [28:02]
A
But second off, you know, think about the technological evolution toward AI. You know, I just got back from RLC and of course AI was a part of our conversation throughout and, and this, this idea, I was talking to somebody about this remarkable idea of what they were calling the one man corporation or one woman corporation. You know, this, this notion that AI has gotten to a place where it's like you can spin up a whole company with AI because it can do the functions of a CFO and a cmo, right? Restaurants, obviously not about to do something like that because this is, to your point, still hospitality. But you know, you as CEO, I imagine you have to be thinking about something like this. The possibility that AI could come in here and perhaps even replace some of your positions in the back of the house, or that you could leverage it to create some sort of efficiencies. How do you approach something like that?
- [28:51]
B
That is how we're approaching it right now is how can we make the team members experience better to where they're able to focus their energy on the guest. It's not about replacing for us anyway. It's not about replacing anyone. Just one example is, you know, we use a service that essentially is helping to, you know, answer phone calls that we can't get to, particularly in high volume times, and taking reservations. There's an AI bot that's taking reservations over the phone and is incorporated or is integrated with, with OpenTable and making sure that the availability is there for the consumer. The consumer's right there on the phone talking to the bot. And if there isn't an availability at 7 o', clock, the, you know, and again, we've spent months, you know, designing this bot to make sure it sounds and acts like a Firebird's host. Obviously you know that it's a bot, but it, it really performs well. And if there's not a seven o' clock reservation. It's going to push you to, you know, how about 7:30 or how about 7:15? It's going to let you know when we do have a reservation available. And when we were going through with this platform, it was like, well, we're going to be able to save you thousands of dollars in labor. And the only way that you can do that is if you say, okay, well, we don't need the host anymore because we have somebody that's answering the phone. And that's not it. It's about now the hostess isn't picking up a phone in the middle of service while there's a guest standing at the front door. They are able to completely focus and be present in that experience and offer true, genuine hospitality because they're not worrying about something else that's happening at that very busy time of the day. So we aren't thinking about how to replace people. We're thinking about how to make people better and more efficient by using some of this new technology. So I think that's probably the best way to think about it. And not just with an AI bot necessarily, but, you know, even as we, you know, in the finance world, as we, you know, use summarizing, you know, financials and, you know, there's things that, that we're using that for as well and to be more efficient on how we create, you know, decks in going through some of our financials. But there's going to be more and more ways to use it. And we've got a whole tiger team that, you know, talk often about, about because it's, it is obviously you talk about evolution, it's evolving at a, at a incredible pace right now. That is, is tough to keep up with for sure.
- [31:18]
A
Yeah. I went from never having heard the term agentic AI to getting it in my inbox 18 times a day in the span of about a week. And so I just had to go and learn about what that meant and understand it because that's just kind of the world we live in. All right, so we've been talking about how you guys are modernizing the Firebirds brand. You've celebrated your 25th anniversary. Let's take a look into the future because you guys are planning to grow and of course you've got the numbers behind you to have validated this concept, improve. There is a demand for what you guys are, are building here. So what does the growth plan look like going forward?
- [31:53]
B
Yeah, so, so we're going to grow at about 10% a year, meaning you, you're. We, we're going to open seven restaurants this year. We plan on opening anywhere from seven to nine next year. So that's about, you know, 10, 11%. And, and I think we're very fortunate that we have 69 restaurants, 21 states that really the, the growth strategy is what I like to refer to as grow, where, you know, meaning I don't see us, we're going to enter Kentucky this year, but I don't see us entering a new state after that for probably a couple more years. Because most of the states, if you just do the math, most of the states that we're in, we have. Some of the states that we're in, we have anywhere from 1, 2, 3 or 4 locations in the whole state, which means we get to leverage, you know, the multi unit leadership, we get to leverage distribution, we get to leverage maybe most importantly, brand awareness. And just kind of say, all right, this trade area, we're performing really, really well. And if you go just across town in the same dma, we can open another location in a similar trade area with similar demographics and we can be successful there because everybody already knows the brand. We already have a multi unit leader that probably lives in the area. We already have distribution that's going there. There's no need to go blaze a bunch of new trails in the Pacific Northwest or California or the Northeast or the New England. All of those are great trade areas too, that I'm sure one day Firebirds will be at. But you eliminate risk when you can go grow in areas that already know your brand, because that's really where the most risk comes in. You got to know that the consumer already engages with you and likes the brand and you just go leverage that. I mean, so that's really where our growth is happening right now, is all in areas that you already know that there's a Firebirds app and we're going to continue that and we can continue that for the next five years. And I mean, double the size of the brand is the reality in the near future.
- [33:47]
A
And even here in Columbus, you've got two locations. You opened the second one just, I guess that was two years ago now, maybe, but you know, they're 20 minutes apart from each other. But I imagine a city like Columbus, you could probably fit five more Firebirds here and they not even compete with each other at all.
- [34:00]
B
Yep, that is 100 true. And there's so many DMAs across, you know, across the US and across the 22 states that we operate in that are Just like that.
- [34:09]
A
Yeah. All right. So going back to that idea of the competition in full service dining, I mean, or even taking a step back, the broader restaurant industry in the U.S. i think everybody can agree there's just too many restaurants. There's a lot of, there's a lot of retrenchment that's probably going to happen. And so when you think about growth for Firebirds, are you looking at a lot of second gen sites? I mean, because inevitably I think we'll see a lot of closures, but I imagine a firebird. You're so specific in your architecture design, especially incorporating the wood fire. How do you find the right real estate that makes sense for the brand?
- [34:43]
B
We've been able to be pretty nimble as it relates to the type of locations that we are now. Now they're all a plus real estate at this point. But we have gone into second gen spaces, we've gone into prominent end caps. Obviously we build out on, on pads on, in a ground lease situation. So we've done, we've done all three. The second gen spaces are always a little bit trickier because there's skeletons in the closets in that building somewhere that you inevitably find. And you always think on the surface that it's going to be more efficient to build in a second gen space, but it typically is not. And then you're figuring out a way, okay, how can I make sure that I don't wind up making this building look anything like whatever was there before? Because what you never want is somebody driving by and going, that used to be X restaurant. It's Firebirds now. But you know, so there's a lot that goes into that. So we prefer, you know, new and shiny. But, but there are times and we have a handful of very successful build outs that were second gen spaces. So if it's the best real estate in the market, we'll go to a second gen space. We'll be really patient and say we want to be in this market, but we're not going to go make a mistake in real estate. We're very disciplined when it comes to that. And there's markets where we waited for four years and I just kept pointing at that building right there and saying, you know, that is the one that I want. And when it comes available, we're going to be here to open there because I know we can be really successful here. So it is something that we, you know, we do a little bit of all three.
- [36:17]
A
My favorite by the way are old Pizza Huts and old Bob Evans. When when somebody moves into one of those as closed and you make, oh, that's a Chinese restaurant and a Bob Evans, I can see that very clearly.
- [36:28]
B
Mimi's is the other one. I mean, if it, if it's an old, if it's an old Mimi's and you try to open in that thing, forget it. Like it is always going to be a Mimi.
- [36:36]
A
Yeah. At least take down the facade or something. There's something you got to change just to make it your own at some point. Steve, I, I, we, I kind of buried the lead here though. But I, I want to get back to you because I think something that we should have talked about earlier that's kind of remarkable. You've been with this brand for a long time and as I understand you started as a GM with Firebirds. I'm really curious about your perspective of going from GM to CEO. I mean, I think this industry is full of great stories of folks who have kind of climbed the ranks like that. Tell me about what you feel like having started as a GM in this brand, now serving as CEO, what does that afford you the ability to do as a leader?
- [37:15]
B
Wow. Yeah, that's a loaded question. I, you know, I think first of all, I'm blessed to work in an industry where we get paid to put smiles on people's faces every day. And I've this, I've been in this industry since I'm 14 years old. I started at McDonald's and never looked back. And I knew that it was always what I wanted to be involved in. And from the perspective of Firebirds, I started as a GM in 2003 at Firebirds number three. And it's been an incredible journey along the way. For sure. I'm probably even more blessed or maybe even a little lucky to be surrounded by incredibly talented, might I say, a world class team, both at the executive leadership level, all the way down to, you know, boots on the ground in all of our restaurants with over 6,000 employees, we've got great people. And it begins, and it will always begin and end with great people. Probably, you know, the sound bite, you'll hear me say in almost every podcast interview, whatever, is what keeps you up at night. And if you ask me that 10 years ago, I'll say people. If you ask me that today, I'll say people. And 10 years from now, I'm going to say people. And it doesn't keep me up at night because it's, there's a problem with people. It keeps me up at night because it is the most Important thing is will and always will be. So I think what. Back to your original question. I certainly think there's. I get a lot of street cred because of the journey that I've been on. At least in the Firebirds world, I do. I have done just about anything I could ask anyone to do. I've experienced all of it along the way. I've been on the roller coaster ride the entire time and I've seen what works, I've seen what doesn't work. So I like to play in a lot of sandboxes. You know, we've got great people that we've also added along the way too. It's always great to, you know, to have new perspectives and we have just the right amount, I think of of long tenured people that were founder selected like I was, and newer people that have entered the brand as well. But we get to kind of, you know, take all of that knowledge both from the rest of the industry, from others, what others have experienced and what we. And some of these folks that have been around like I have for two decades have experienced and kind of join those together and figure out. One thing I can tell you is that we know that we don't know it all, that's for sure. We're continuing to learn, we're continuing to evolve, we're continuing to figure out better ways, faster ways, you know, to do things. So I think that's really the perspective where I come in is that, you know, I've seen a lot over the years and I'm able to provide some of that, you know, some of that backstory on the journey.
- [40:00]
A
Yeah, that's really cool. I want to circle back around to kids and the role that kids play in Firebirds for a couple of reasons. The first is I love this program you guys recently launched, the Junior Chef's Club. I think that's again, again, I'm biased as a parent. Like, anytime a brand is making an effort to connect with my kids, it's a big win when it's not just an afterthought. You guys have developed this really cool program for kids called the Junior Chefs Club. Can you talk a little bit about that, how it plays into sort of building some loyalty for Firebirds?
- [40:32]
B
Yeah, well, first of all, I guess maybe backing up, we recognized a long time ago and it continued to got even more that families have an affinity for this brand. And you know, we obviously in turn have an affinity for families as well. But just as you have conversations, not only anecdotally, but, you know, Surveys that we've, that we've launched has shown us that people think about the Firebirds brand and they think about their kids. So we really thought about that. You know, really the marketing team thought about that and said, you know, we really have something here. And so many folks are making this choice to dine with us because when you think of polished brands and fine dining brands, none of them really associate with families. It's almost the opposite. Right? Like, I feel like I don't want to bring my kids in there. Not only because maybe it's slightly more expensive, but more so because you don't. You almost don't feel welcome there. And I don't think it's intentional necessarily, but it's. It's the surroundings, it's the build out, it's quieter. You don't want to disturb other people's. You're about to set off that bomb. You don't want to disturb other people's. Other people, people's dinner or lunch. But, you know, so that's the way we looked at it and said, wow, we. I think this is something really special. We have a point of differentiation that we didn't. It wasn't intentional. It was very organic. It just happened that way. Part of it is because of the kids menu. And we said, all right, let's continue to leverage and focus down this path, which is obviously a strength for us so that we can do that. So the kids live well or. The Junior Chef program is essentially a journey that these young families are on. If you're a member of our inner circle club, you know, you are connected with us. You learn about things that are happening in the brand. You may have, you know, you know, a special menu item that's being launched that you know about before anybody else. There may be some sort of a flash promo going on that you are in the inner circle, where you know about it and others don't. And the Junior Chef club is almost like a extension of that, but for kids. So, for example, Sam, your kids are sort of under the, you know, the Sam umbrella of the inner circle. They have. We're not emailing them because we can't, but we're emailing you about them. And at certain times of the year, there are certain things happening in the world of kids, whether it be, you know, school or report cards or things like that. But what we're finding is the kids are really interested, especially with that open kitchen and what's happening with cooking, what's happening with ingredients, their heads, you know, they're Rubbernecking, and they're looking to see what's going on over there. So we've leveraged that, and the kids are on a journey. Maybe their first time that they come in, you get invited in to come in and get this very cool T shirt that looks like a chef coat. You know, maybe a couple months later, you may come in once or twice in between those couple months, but a couple months later, we know how often you're coming in. We're saying, all right, it's time for him to. Or her to come in and pick up their, you know, their apron or their hat. So there'll be another part of the journey that they come in. And they come in, they say, hey, I'm, you know, here for dinner, and I'm here. Where's my, you know, my next part of my journey? And then they get their cool little chef hat. And then maybe the next time they come in, they get their mixing bowl and there's a whisk and there's like a rubber spatula. And all along, there's things in there, you know, because the. Their kids menu is. Is also forever evolving. So several times a year, you're going to come in, you're not going to just see the same old stuff. There may be different games, there may be different values that we're focused on. Many times we have things from Alex's Lemonade Stand foundation that's in there, or different hero kids that we're. That we're focused on and telling their story. Because that's part of the journey, too, is that incorporating our partner, Alex's Lemonade Stand foundation, and what we're doing to try to cure cancer, pediatric cancer, one cup of lemonade at a time. And a big part of that has families involved in it. And there's a journey that they're along with us, and they definitely, you know, they engage with that.
- [44:22]
A
Yeah. And of course, just want to talk about that, too. You know, in full disclosure, I am also involved in Alex's Lemonade Stand foundation as the parent of a childhood cancer survivor. You guys have just really opened your arms to me and my family because you've done your lemonade days. Lemonade stand, where you allow us to come in and give out, sell glasses of lemonade to benefit the foundation. And it's. It's such a cool. We always have such a great time as a. As a family being a part of that, because it's not just go into the restaurant and have a meal and donate money. It is come, have an experience, be A part of this joyful thing. Being a part of a lemonade stand that is obviously trying to solve for something that is incredibly difficult in the lives of families who've been through something like that. Tell me about the relationship you have with Alex's lemonade stand foundation and how it's not just like a charitable partner. It's really something that's come to, I can tell, be really enmeshed in the Firebirds DNA.
- [45:17]
B
Yeah, it's part of our culture. I know the ALSF team is always just so blown away when they come into the restaurants and they see that it's not. I mean, June every year is lemonade days. And we're able to raise a ton of money during the month of June, but we are very involved during the entire year. It's been a 14 year official partnership. Now we are probably a month or two away from eclipsing $5 million raised in the last 14 years. That's something that we're really proud of. We know that we've made a huge difference in the world of so many of the families that experience this. And in the search for a cure, I mean, there's been unbelievable, you know, I mean, there's been unbelievable things that have been, you know, through the, through the work and the research that they're helping to, and the grants that they're helping to fund. There's just some. So I think the way that we tell the story in the restaurants to the team members, the fact that Alexandra Scott is a, you know, or was in her legacy, they can sort of connect that there's a, there's a, there was a person there that started all this and it's lemonade. Right? Every one of our restaurants have and always have sold lemonade. Today it's Alex's Lemonade. So that there's a name associated with it. I think so many of us has been, has been impacted by childhood cancer one way or another. You have family member, maybe it's somebody closer, maybe it's a, an indirect family member. But I think everybody can kind of connect with it. And it has truly become, you know, culturally a big. You can ask any of our employees, they know about it, they understand, they know where the money goes, they know how we participate. Every one of our lemonades that are sold all year long, not just during the month of June, we give a $25, you know, back to ALSF and that's, you know, $25 of whatever it is. 350. That's $4 that we charge for lemonade It's a significant part of, of the sales of that item and it adds up very, very quickly. So I do, I think it's a, it's one of the things that we are definitely the most proud of that we've been able to partner with over the years.
- [47:19]
A
Yeah, it's so cool. And on behalf of a family that's been through it, thank you for that because it's just incredible. I always love to see results in these kinds of things. It's one thing to pay lip service to a, you know, a charity or whatever for the work it does, but some of the facts that I think are fascinating is Alex's lemonade stand in 20 years has raised about $400 million. And in that time, it's gone. The childhood survival rate, childhood cancer survival rate has gone from, I think, 75% to 85%. And it's just, it's actual difference that you can make into the lives of 15,000 children every year diagnosed with cancer. So, you know, meaningful change, I think is always important for any partnership that a restaurant, you know, brings on.
- [48:01]
B
Well, we are happy to do it and we love, we love Jude. He's the. He, he's the man.
- [48:07]
A
He. And he talks, by the way, going back to the kids, loyalty. He. I think this year he might have his birthday party at Firebirds. He's always talking about, he's like, can we go back to Firebirds? I'm like, I'm happy to go to Firebirds whenever you want, but we might, we might create a new segment for you.
- [48:21]
B
We got a new, we got a new revenue stream.
- [48:24]
A
New revenue stream, childhood birthday parties. I think you can make it happen. Steve, last question for you as we wrap up. What's something that you're most excited about for the future of Firebirds?
- [48:34]
B
Yeah, you know, I think I'm just, I'm most excited to continue to bring the brand to new communities. I mean, the, the when we open a new restaurant, it's just such a high energy, special experience. And as we continue to evolve and, you know, provide opportunities for people in some of these new places that we go to it, I think that's the most exciting thing for us. Even though that's grow where, you know, and we're going to maybe places that know the brand already, but we're providing employment for 100 plus people. Every time we go to a new community, it just brings just the energy of continuing to have a brand that's growing at 10%. There's nothing more exciting about that. And by growing at 10%. We're also not only providing new jobs for people in those communities, but we're continuing to provide more and more opportunities for the leadership teams across the country. And like I said earlier, it's. It's about people. It's always been about people. It always will be about people. So that's what I get most excited about. No matter, you know, no matter what we're doing.
- [49:33]
A
It's awesome. Well, can't wait to see Firebirds on its growth journey. Steve Kislow, the CEO of Firebirds Wood Fire Girl, thanks for your time. Really appreciate it.
- [49:42]
B
Thanks for being here, Sam. It's always a pleasure.
- [49:44]
A
That was my interview with Firebirds CEO Steve Kislo. So what should you learn from this interview? Here are my five takeaways. My first takeaway is that you should embrace evolution, not revolution. I had the same takeaway just the other week on my podcast with Mendocino Farm CEO Kevin Miles and CMO Alicia Mauter. It's really a variation on what they were saying, is that you should evolve, not change. Same thing here. Evolution, not revolution. I just like how Steve put that a little bit better because it rhymes. We all love rhyming here, but the truth is really important here that evolution is a must in the restaurant business, any business, really. You have to evolve your business to keep up with the times, the demands of the customers. Steve had such great examples of what that looks like. My favorite among them was the story of the coconut shrimp. And I like this one especially because my wife is always a big fan of coconut shrimp, always orders it when it's on the menu of a restaurant. Steve told the story about how this was one of the top sellers at Firebirds for a long time before they made the decision to pull it because at some point it became less popular and they wanted to innovate on the menu and. And remove some of the complexity. This is always going to be true of restaurants is that you have to take a good, hard look at your menu, at your store, design at the branding at your service structure. What can be evolved to keep up with the times. You do not have to have a revolution. You don't have to change everything. You just, you have to stick to your brand, DNA, your core values and just bring in some new elements that again, feel modern, feel fresh, so that the customers can appreciate your attempt to keep up with their existing current demands. My second takeaway is that your branding opportunity begins with your storefront. I am always singing the praises of Firebirds Smell. I know it's Crazy. But it's just the same as a barbecue restaurant. Firebirds smells of that heavenly smoke smell. As I say in the interview, there's a Firebirds right up the road from me. I'm drive by it almost every day. And I promise you this is true. When I say that, I often roll the window down just to get that wood smoke, as Steve was saying, you know, and I'm sure you can relate. Fire and wood smoke really evokes so many nostalgic memories for me. It makes me think of sitting outside having a bonfire in the summer. It makes me think of great restaurant experiences. I love the smell of wood smoke and firebirds. They are creating a branding opportunity with their wood smoke, with the smart smell of their restaurant. But it doesn't stop there. As Steve said, you know, fire is a, a key branding component for Firebirds for obvious reasons. Inside they have fireplaces and various components of the brand that incorporate a fire icon. And that's true on the outside, too. As they've updated their restaurants, Steve said they've incorporated the flame the fire into other visual components on the outside of the Firebirds restaurant. I like that because, you know, it's easy to just slap a sign on a storefront and call it a day and say that that's branding. But depending on the space that you have for your restaurant, there are a lot of visual cues you can provide for your brand on that storefront. There are also smell cues you can provide if you're into the wood fired business, but it doesn't have to be that. Or maybe it's music coming out of speakers outside. Either way, what are you communicating about your brand from the parking lot or even from the road that grabs the customer's attention and pulls them in? And then how do you continue with that branding experience on the interior of the restaurant and through the meal? Those are all things you should think about. How to start it before they even get in the restaurant, not just when they're inside the restaurant. My third takeaway is that kids are just as ready to engage with your brand as their parents. All right, look, I'm kind of biased with this Firebirds episode because my kids love firebirds. Like I said, there's one right up the road from us. We're there a lot. We've also been privileged to partner with Firebirds on behalf of their Alex's Lemonade Stand Foundation Lemonade Days activation, where we get to go and help them host a lemonade stand. It's a ton of fun. And so what I will tell you with that bias in mind is that this restaurant, it does a phenomenal job of connecting with kids. When you go inside the restaurant, it looks like an upscale casual dining restaurant. I mean, honestly, it's got a lot of sort of fine dining flourishes. But I never have felt out of place being there with my kids. Steve said that's intentional. They are all about having families join to have an experience at Firebirds. And so they're always very eager to plug in with kids. And as I said, kids are just as ready to engage with the brand as their parents. You don't just want to give them some crayons and, you know, a coloring page and call it a day. Firebirds really pulls kids into the experience. Their kids menu that your kids will receive has a lot of information on it, including about the activation with Alex's Lemonade Stand. But it also has games, it has facts and trivia. There's all kinds of ways in which Firebirds puts its branding into that experience with the kids. The thing I love the most that they've recently introduced is the Junior Chefs Club. You know, Steve was explaining how this thing works. Basically, you know, if the parents are a part of the loyalty program, there is something for kids to engage with with the kitchen that they can get, you know, maybe a chef's hat or a chef's coat as part of this Junior Chef's club. And again, it's. It's showing the kids that, hey, a restaurant is a cool place to work. A restaurant is not just a place for a tasty meal. And I just think that's taking a kid marketing campaign, a kid activation, to the next level in ways I've not seen from a lot of restaurants. But it's important, and as Steve really kind of reiterated here, it's important to provide that great activation for the kids, that great experience for the kids, because not only does it turn them into customers for life, but it also gets their families to want to come back more. The parents are going to want to go back because the kids are engaged. The brand means something more than just a place for a tasty meal. How are you engaging with kids? Are you just giving them crayons and a paper to draw on, or are you giving them some brand activation that's going to pull them deeper into the brand and make them become fans of the brand in a way that really sets up that whole family to become loyal guests? My fourth takeaway is that your beverage program demands as much creativity as your food. So a lot of what Steve and I Talked about was the brand evolution the Firebirds has undergone over the last 20 to 30 years and how that's really included the menu. And obviously, any restaurant worth its salt is going to invest in evolving their food menu. But especially today, evolving the beverage menu is more important than ever. You know, Steve was talking about how, you know, wine once upon a time was kind of the number one seller. Then it was beer, now it's liquor. And in liquor being as popular as it is today, they're embracing menu innovation. For example, you know, one of the examples he talked about was bringing that wood smoke component and flavor into the beverage menu, not just the food. They're using more mixers in their liquors, in their cocktails to, again, kind of offer something a little bit different. We've all seen the boom in beverage, both non alcoholic and alcoholic lately, especially non alcoholic, I guess I should say. But the interest in beverage is across all menu categories, all service structures. It's from QSR up to fine dining. Customers want more out of beverage, and Firebirds is providing that beverage innovation in a way that complements their food innovation. And I think that's something that every restaurant has to be thinking a lot about these days. My fifth and final takeaway is that technology can help you ratchet up your hospitality as a differentiator. We all know the benefits of technology, from online ordering to, you know, AI automation in the kitchen to et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We don't need to rehash that. But I thought Steve's take on technology at Firebirds was really interesting and different because he talked about it how, you know, they are leveraging data to really understand their loyal customers before they come in the door. And when those customers come in the door, they are then tailoring the experience around what the data tells them they like. I just thought that was really fascinating. It reminded me of our recent episode with Rachel Cope of 84 Hospitality and how she was inspired by the Dreamweavers program at 11 Madison park, where they get to know the customer before they come in so that they can uniquely tailor that guest around their likes and the things they order and the things they're interested in.
- [58:11]
B
That's a.
- [58:12]
A
There's a version of that that Firebirds is doing here, but they're using the data that they've collected through loyalty program past ordering experiences to understand who these customers are so that they can, you know, know their name or provide their favorite food or beverage recommendation from the jump or whatever it is. There are ways to tap into technology to drive the human experience. It doesn't have to replace that human experience. It can really elevate that human experience. That hospitality you're providing in your restaurant, what are some ways that technology can do that for you? Those are all my takeaways for today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe to Takeaway wherever you listen to podcasts and leave some feedback. You can also email me at samokus at informa. Com. Thanks again and talk to you next week.