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- [00:00]
A
Are you a leader at an emerging restaurant chain that's ready to level up? Then create the event for emerging restaurateurs is yous ultimate destination. This July 20th through 22nd, join your fellow restaurant entrepreneurs for three action packed days of connection, inspiration and growth. Meet potential new partners through our Speed Dating Style one to one meetings and get face to face with potential investors at the Investment Summit. Keynote speakers include Netflix star Phil Rosenthal, Chipotle founders Steve Ells and Panda Express founders Andrew and Peggy Cheung. This one of a kind restaurant event is set against the stunning backdrop of Terranea Resorts California coastline. And hey, bring the whole family for vacation while you're at it. By registering for Create Today, you'll unlock specially discounted prices for Disneyland. Don't miss your chance to connect, innovate and grow your business. Register for create today@create.nrn.com welcome to Takeaway with Samokus, a podcast for leaders of growing restaurant companies looking to take their business to the next level. In nearly two decades covering restaurants, I've gained access to some of this industry's most influential decision makers and I'm letting you in on the conversations. In today's episode, you'll hear from a pizza executive about how he's helping to transform the legacy business through technology and experience, and about how its new hybrid service model can help shepherd the business into new communities. Ehsan Jeeva is the Executive Vice President of Strategy and Transformation at Mellow Mushroom, a brand that's grown to about 170 locations in 17 states in its 50 plus years in business. Mellow Mushroom has long been a full service concept with bar service and countercultural vibes. But as part of a three year transformation that Aesan is spearheading, it's rolling out a fast, fine model that offers some counter service while protecting the core menu and branding that Mellow Mushroom has become known for. Asan joined the podcast to talk about the ingredients to that transformation and how the flexible model that they've designed is empowering franchisees and GMs to take the business to the next level. In this conversation, you'll learn more about how barbell pricing strategies can extend to your beverage menu, why the pizza category may have a use case and experience problem, and why the best use for new tech tools is to supercharge your gm. If you learned something from this episode, please go follow takeaway wherever you listen to podcasts and leave some feedback. It's the best way to get these lessons into the hands of your fellow restaurant leaders. Jumping now into my interview with Mellow Mushrooms. Ehsan Jeeva. Also, don't forget to stick around after the interview as I will share my seven takeaways from this discussion. Actionable insights that you can take with you on the go. All right, I am sitting down with A. San Jiva, the executive vice president of strategy and transformation at Mellow Mushroom a San. Thanks for joining me today.
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B
Thanks for having me, Sam.
- [02:56]
A
All right, so Asan, I am a big fan of Mellow Mushroom. I lived in North Carolina for a while and always had one nearby and got to enjoy all of the, the wonderful offerings of Mellow Mushroom. But you know, for those in the country who are not familiar with this brand, what's, what's Mellow Mushroom all about?
- [03:14]
B
Yeah, so, and by the way, North Carolina is my, one of my favorite markets for Mellow, so glad you got to visit some great ones. Well, Mellow started in the 70s as really a counterculture pizza shop, you know, and I would say 52 years later, now we're still built around that same idea, right? Great food, creativity and just a refusal to be cookie cutter. So all of our restaurants are individually designed. So, you know, we kind of buck the trend from that standpoint. All of our locations are really a reflection of the community in which we operate and support and employ a lot of great people. You know, we, we grew organically just out of a single location in Atlanta. And really, word of mouth, a lot of our, you know, early and even recent franchisees have just been fans of the brand. And we've just built this cult following over the last 50 plus years that really has taken us to where we are today. And, and just a lot of Runway still left for us to continue to grow because quite frankly, got the best pizza out there, man. And it's not just pizza. We're, you know, we've got a full bar in our restaurants. So our cocktail program, you know, we did craft beer before. Craft beer was cool and then it got uncool and now it's becoming cool again, I think. So that's, you know, we, we're, we're in 17 states and just really excited to share a little bit more about who we are today.
- [04:25]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think some of those differentiating factors, I mean, a couple of things, again, knowing this brand really well, that, that the store design, the feeling of it really brings that sort of 70s kind of hippie groovy era to the front and which is fun and spunky. But I mean, also the other thing is full service, I mean, or hybrid, I guess you could Say more so, but like the fact that it emphasizes dining rooms, the fact that there is a full bar program that is a differentiator in pizza. You know, I mentioned that I love this brand. I grew up, you know, in college. Pizza and beer was my Friday night go to and I moved to North Carolina. And mellow Mushroom, it scratched that itch for me which was I want a pint or I want a pitcher and I want a pizza and I want to chill. And that's the vibe you guys create. And you know, I just curious because you mentioned that about craft beer kind of, kind of falling out of favor, maybe coming back into favor. How much of mellow mushroom sales are dine in and how much of the ticket is alcohol? Because how significant are those factors to the business?
- [05:28]
B
Yeah, it's interesting because. And I hate referring back to the COVID pandemic because I'm like, can we leave that behind, please? But you know, it just, it kind of, it's like a milestone for every brand. Where things have changed since then. Right. So before the pandemic, we were about a 75% dine in business. So like having larger stores, full service bar was definitely, you know, where we excelled at. Since then, habits have changed. So we've seen a lot more balancing of the dine in and off premise. So now we're looking at about a 40% off premise business. And that's everything digital call in orders, we still do that and third party. But what we've really seen is the LBW makes liquor, beer and wine mix has stayed about consistent. So about 22% of our sales in dine in come from liquor, beer and wine. And actually it's great timing because two days ago we recently relaunched our entire cocktail program to really come up with a little bit more of a barbell strategy. We leaned a little bit, you know, over index a little bit on premium to premium before, but really wanted to kind of have a way to get people in for that, you know, seven, eight, nine dollar drink and really get them that second or third one, really. Because at the end of the day, like you said, you want pizza and beer or pizza and cocktails and it's just a good pairing.
- [06:33]
A
Yeah. Okay, let's go, let's go there. Since we're there now, let's talk about this because I literally this morning on a team call, we were talking about how expensive cocktails have gotten. And I imagine that we're talking about that for a reason because it's. Everybody can see this has happened. Right. And so Two things at play. Obviously, the rising cost of, of goods is, is insane, and that's affecting alcohol just as much as anything else. But the second factor at play that you, you know, you mentioned is, you know, especially younger generations are not drinking as much. Now, our team was wondering on our call today. Well, those things surely are related, right? The younger generations are not buying $30 cocktails. Tell me, tell me about what you're seeing because, like, I assume you're seeing that similarly, younger generations aren't drinking as much, so we need to put out more sort of valuable offerings. How do you do that? What is key to offering a barbell strategy in bar business?
- [07:27]
B
Yeah, well, I think the first thing is I think the younger generation doesn't have enough stress yet. I think eventually they'll start drinking again. I think that's right. Are you sure?
- [07:34]
A
Because they went to college during the pandemic, so I, I've had some stress.
- [07:37]
B
Yeah, they got, yeah, they got some stress overhang of that or I guess I hang up.
- [07:41]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [07:42]
B
No, so I think what we do is a couple things, right? So you don't have to have a, you know, when I say expensive for us, it was like, you know, $15, $16 price point, right. Depending on the market, maybe 14. We don't have any restaurants that have $20 plus cocktails. But we also don't operate in, like, New York, for example. Right. So for us, it was really just bringing that, that price point a little bit down. And you don't have to sacrifice a lot on quality because at the end of the day, yes, you know, your spirit is, you know, ounce and a half or of spirit, but it's, it's what you mix it with. Right? So a lot of times what I see in restaurants and, you know, every time I go, I get a margarita, it's America's favorite cocktail. And you can tell the difference. You know, you can use the best spirit you want, but if you're, if you're. Lime juice and agave and sour mix is, you know, out of a bottle or not fresh, you can tell a difference in the cocktail. So really at, you know, from that standpoint, you can have a really effective and profitable LBW program just by making some tweaks in the spirit selection, but really not messing with all the other ingredients that go into it. And obviously, you know, everyone eats and drinks with their eyes, so presentation is really helps, you know, kind of sell it itself. We see our new Moondust margarita walking around, you know, walk around the dining Room People are like, oh, I want some of that. Right. Purple dragon fruit is kind of the whole nine yards. But then on the flip side of that, we've done a lot of work on refreshers. So these are, you know, I hate calling it mocktails, but, you know, zero proof, I guess. Right?
- [09:00]
A
Yeah.
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B
And what we've seen is, you know, the generation that doesn't want to drink a lot of alcohol, they'll get a refresher. But then, you know, and when you're kind of on that fence, you can spike it with, you know, a vodka or a tequila or a rum spirit. So just having those offerings on the table and really making it an attractive price point and not sacrificing on the other things that go into all these drinks outside of the spirit, I think has shown that, you know, we can still maintain a good LBW business. And margins. Yeah.
- [09:26]
A
I mean, bar programs have always been seen as such a great high margin opportunity. So it seems like if it's a high margin thing, you have a lot of flexibility to play with price point to come down and offer some value. Right, right.
- [09:39]
B
Exactly. At the end of the day, we, you know, we feel like our, our cocktails are some of the best out there. And it was a lot of it was simplification too, because, you know, if you have a bartender making a cocktail, it takes four or five steps. Well, they're not so inclined. And the servers aren't so inclined to sell them the second one. Right. So this simplification around a lot of how we execute, how we batch, how we prep has really helped us to increase incidence rates while. While bringing our prices down, which is honestly unheard of in the environment that we're in today.
- [10:07]
A
Yeah, totally. How much do you find that alcohol drives the bus on some of the occasions? I mean, is this a matter of trying to eliminate some of the veto vote for anybody who wants a good drink and doesn't think mellow mushrooms are within their budget? Or is this a matter of complimenting the folks who've already come in for a pizza?
- [10:24]
B
I think it's more the latter. I think it's complimenting people that have already come in because we've been known to. Your point about pizza and beer? Right. So we are you. It's a little bit of an uphill battle, but we've been serving great cocktails for a long time, so it's people that do come in and want something different than beer. Even though we offer non alcoholic beers and things like that. It's just one of Those, one of those marketing plays there. And I will also say a lot of times our cocktail program kind of over index on one side or the other. What I mean by that is we went either a little too heavy on the spirit. So my taste in spirits is probably a little different than yours and most of America. But we found through research is people just like a kind of a kind of middle of the road, you know, not too sweet, but not too spirit forward cocktails. And we still had to do some rebalancing of that because. Just because the way I drink cocktails at home doesn't mean that's how we need to serve them in our restaurants.
- [11:16]
A
Sure. Let's talk about the food menu then. Because are you going for the same kind of barbell strategy on the food menu? What are some things you're doing with food that you feel like can also offer that value?
- [11:27]
B
Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that we realized over the last year, we're actually in the midst of a three year transformation. There's a lot different things we've been working on from technology to formats to menus, but sticking to menus specifically, what we realized is that we have a great pizza offering. That's what we're known for. That's what people come to us for. But capturing that veto vote kind of around the other categories, around our core. Right. So it's the salad program, it's the, the sandwiches and the hoagies and the subs. That's really where we needed to evolve a little bit more in our burgers too. So that's what we've done, you know, over the last few months. And actually our new salad program rolled out this past Monday as well. Really from us, from a bar bill standpoint, it's really making sure that we have different size offerings. So we've always had, you know, two size salads or two size hoagies, three size pizzas. So you can come in and get a great half salad and a pizza, you know, for 10, 15 bucks or if you've got a bigger family, you can go up, up the menu chain on that. So it's just being able to offer different sizes and different portion sizes and letting the guests sort of customize their journey with us. That's how we're going to approach the food from the barbell side. Sure.
- [12:30]
A
Okay. You mentioned this ongoing transformation. You have transformation in your title. So I imagine this is kind of your baby. This is what you're, you're overseeing. Not, not too many people in this industry have Transformation in their title. So congratulations. That's a lot of fun. What does that look like for Mellow Mushroom? Because you guys, I know, are really not only working on the menu, but you're working on the entire experience of this brand to, to transform what Mellow Mushroom is to its core audience. Tell me about that process. What does this look like?
- [12:59]
B
Yeah, well, you know, having Transformation in my title sort of gives me a little bit of liberty within the organization. And so I like to say I play in a lot of other people's sandboxes sometimes. But you know, the good thing about that is that, you know, I tend to bring a little bit of a fresh perspective because when you're in it, in the trenches, you're doing the day to day, sometimes it's hard to see the forest from the trees. And you know, my direct role when I first joined Mello was really evolving our technology and our business intelligence capabilities. So when we're making decisions, whether they be operational related, whether they be menu related, guests related, now we're making it with a lens of extremely detailed data that we didn't have before. So that's really what I brought to the table early on. And now when we kicked off our transformation like three years ago, a lot of it was understanding kind of where we've been and kind of looking in the rearview mirror and then kind of looking ahead at where we want to be. Because being a 50 year old brand, there's a lot of legacy. You know, from a guest standpoint, from a menu standpoint, there's a lot of weight that you have to carry, but you have to stay relevant. And that was what we were sort of missing is like, how do we become relevant again? Pizza is great. Pizza is a big business across the industry, but we have to have flavor profiles, we have to have our restaurants that are more attractive, we have to have technology that the guest is used to. Now. Those were things that we didn't necessarily have, you know, three or four years ago. And that's when we really kicked off this brand wide transformation. So everything from offering a new fast find format that has counter service and we've been a full service brand for most of our existence, offering now a non traditional that we're working on offering a hybrid format where you have a full bar and counter service. So just allowing different ways in order for us to take the brand and bring it to more people in more cities nationwide, that was sort of one of the things that we had to do. But before you can do any of that, you got to fix the underlying stuff. Right. So making sure profitability is where we want it to be, making sure our build out costs kind of came back to, came back to reality. And a lot of that is a function of, you know, shrinking the box and offering, you know, I say finishes that are, you know, consistent within our platform and within our restaurants, but still individualizing our locations to fit the local community. Technology rollout. You know, we've been working on, you know, KDS is not new to the industry, but it was a little new to us. We were still operating in the mom and pop way with, with, you know, kitchen chips. And we just saw the opportunity and speed of service and guest communication around timing and transparency. And you know, I'm proud to say now that as a brand that's, you know, under 200 units, we can, we have a lot of the same technology that the big boys do, right? So we can text our guests when the food is being prepared in the kitchen, when it's ready. We're using AI for order times and just really evolving who we are as a brand to really compete with some of the bigger players out there because the needs of our guests have really evolved and we need to keep up with that.
- [15:44]
A
Well, it's interesting, especially in pizza, because when you think about this industry that is so heavily focused on takeout and delivery, I think what that ultimately does for the consumer is it gives the consumer this expectation that no matter where you go for pizza, even if it's full service, you're going to get it fast, you're going to get it hot, that, you know, there's a way that pizza is supposed to operate when we all know in the industry that's totally different because what you're doing is a lot different than what Domino's is doing. So to some degree, you guys have sort of an extra pressure to meet the expectation of the QSR pizza guest, but also satisfy the experience of the full service pizza guest.
- [16:17]
B
Couldn't have said it better myself, you know, and you know, one of the things that does set us apart in that realm is we appeal a lot to families. And because pizza is such a shareable food and you know, kids love it, you know, parents love it. So what we find is that where we really win is in our suburban markets where people, you know, still want to go out, families want to go out after it's a ball game or, you know, it's, you know, the kids play or something. And what kids want pizza and the parents want a nice, you know, cocktail or a nice Beer with great food. And really those two things combined is really where we're seeing a lot of our strength in markets where the other players, like you mentioned, like the dominoes or the other commodity pizza or QSR pizza players can't compete in that space. And so it just gives, it allows us to play in occasions that a lot of other brands can't.
- [17:00]
A
Right. And simultaneously, I mean, I think really for the last 15, 20 years, but especially in the last five, six years, you know, this, this idea of QSR in full service, I think especially when it comes to pizza, they're sort of misnomers, right? Like you can't really put something in this box or this box. Especially with technology, especially with so many of the hybrid experiences you were just describing. I don't think customers necessarily think that way. They don't say themselves, hey, honey, do you want to go to a full service pizza place tonight or do you want to go to a QSR pizza place? They think, what kind of fun experience are we going to get and how much are we going to spend? And so like you guys are so to, to play around with your service style. At the end of the day, I'm guessing the consumers aren't as impacted by that as maybe your franchisees are impacted by that and what is possible to them.
- [17:45]
B
Yeah, and I'll be honest, our franchisees were a little nervous, right? They're like, hey, we've been doing full service for a long time. Now you're talking about doing this counter service thing. Like, it's like, how's that going to impact, you know, me and my investment and my community? So there was a lot of nervousness. But when we looked at the data and we looked at our guest feedback, when we did a lot of guest intercepts and even before we rolled out our first prototype, you know, about two years ago now, you know, the guests,
- [18:07]
A
at the end of the day, I
- [18:08]
B
like to compare it to Starbucks sometimes because, you know, as you travel the world, you see there's Starbucks roasteries right there, these behemoth, you know, giant experiential moments. And then there's also the Starbucks and my Kroger, right? So it's at the end of the day, it's still Starbucks. And that's how we saw our brand is like, you know, our brand is great. Our food product and our, and our service offering is great. We just need different ways to get it out there in the community. So, you know, the guests, to your point, they don't really care that as long as we're upfront about what the experience is and that the food and the consistency is going to be there. That's at the end of day what the guests care about because they're, they're craving mellow when they come to us or they're craving pizza. Right. They're not, to your point, they're not saying, well, maybe we'll just do a QSR drive thru today. Yeah, right.
- [18:49]
A
Yeah. Well, forgive me if you said this already, but are you guys looking at, are you guys looking at footprints that would have no dining rooms or are you still always incorporating the dining room room?
- [18:57]
B
Yeah, no, that's a great question, Sam. We, we for us will always have dining rooms because one thing, you know, we believe in, I wholeheartedly believe in, is even though off premises, you know, the all, the whole thing right now everyone's focused on that. We're humans, we need, we need that relationship, we need that community, we need that conversation. And whether, you know, we might not see it just quite yet, but I think over time people are going to want to get back out into dining rooms. I think we're already seeing that. You know, our off premise business has sort of got into a stable state and kind of plateaued in terms of our overall channel mix. And we're seeing a little bit more market share, gain in dine in because people just want to get out. They're feeling, you know, they're feeling cabin fever a little bit. And so we're always going to have dining rooms and quite frankly, you know, we've tried other, other things like kiosks, for example, within our restaurant. And we just felt like just observing and talking to guests. It wasn't the hospitality that we want to provide. And so moving forward, we're actually about to open up our second and third prototypes for this counter service model. Right. We're not going to have kiosks in there. We're going to, you know, we're going to wire for it if we decide to put it in the future. But really it's about the hospitality and making sure that you enjoy the experience that you have. Because that's really our value proposition is it's the experience that you have that culminates with everything. It's not just the food, you know, it's how you see, how you feel, what you touch and the service you get from our team members that's really what we want to preserve. And doing that in just a off premise box or a overly technological, you know, box doesn't really fit who we are as A brand?
- [20:26]
A
Yeah, it's sort of counterintuitive right now. I mean, on one side of things, you know, we obviously, people are demanding value. Obviously, we see that the consumer is increasingly oppressed with their budget. They're looking for more affordable, valuable options simultaneously. Everything you just said is also true, which is they want to get out of the house. They want to go have an experience. And from our perspective, we're seeing a lot of the restaurants that are winning today as being the ones who are offering not just the cheapest possible food, they're actually offering the best possible experience, which the consumer puts into that value equation. And even if we just look at the major pizza QSRs, all of them are struggling. Domino's less so. But we just got Domino's results a couple days ago, and they were barely positive. I'm not worried about Domino's. They're going to be fine. But, you know, Papa John's, Pizza Hut, they're in pretty significant, you know, a unique spot where they're not very doing very well. So anyway, all of that points back to what you guys are doing. And it is kind of that barbell thing. It is like, offer the value, offer the experience. And if you win on both of those things, and it feels like you've got a customer for life.
- [21:31]
B
Yeah. And I think people want personality, I think, out of. Out of the brands that they interact with, too. And I don't mean personalities like, hey, you have to stand for something. You have to stand for these causes. Well, you know, which we do to some degree, but it's really. Can I. Is. Is there. Is there a personality to the brand itself? And what I'm going after, you know, a lot of times, some of our competitors, you know, you get a lot of the sameness, right, where. Yes, in one, some ways, it's good to get that sameness from a consistency of the product. But if I just want to go out and have fun, you know, I meet a lot of our guests that say, hey, I've been to this mellow or my mellow, and I want to go to this other one. Well, you don't hear that about other brands because, well, what's the point? They're all the same, Right? But for us, it's like. It's like almost having, like a mellow passport. And we've actually toyed around with that idea as we're thinking about our loyalty program later this year, is this mellow passport. Because every location, every experience is so unique that you're not going to be able to replicate that. It's like going to a jam band, right? I know. You play, you play the drums, right? No show. No two shows are the same, so no two mellows are the same. And that's really what we lean into. And that's really what has set us apart. And from a traffic and sales standpoint at least so far, you know, we're not immune to the headwinds, you know, like every other restaurant brand out there besides, you know, a select few. But so far, we've been pretty impressed with how we've been able to maintain our traffic and our same store sales, even in all the headwinds that we're seeing in the industry.
- [22:49]
A
Yeah, I love that idea, by the way. It's kind of like what Hard Rock Cafe sort of thrived on once upon a time. You know, I remember I had a Hard Rock Cafe. Gosh. Nashville or something. You know, it's like you go to that city's Hard Rock Cafe and it's like saying something. But also, I mean, you said you've got kids. It's like, you know, all the playgrounds we go to now, my kids, it's like they've got these little, you know, scavenger hunts where the, the playgrounds put these little pictures hidden into different corners of the playground. And it is a blast running around the playground looking for these things, or even call it Pokemon, where you're trying to collect something. There's something about that which drives you to keep going deeper into the experience just to get to the end of it, because you want to collect them all. So anyway, that's a, that's a free partnership for you. Aan the Pokemon mellow mushroom coming your way. 2020.
- [23:35]
B
Yeah, I see that. Right? Hey, I can see, I see some VR and AR opportunities and through our app pretty soon.
- [23:40]
A
So, hey, here we go. I think we've started something. All right, so tell me, what is possible with this new prototype? Because you talk about how franchisees. This is great for franchisees, offers a little bit of flexibility as they're looking to grow out their portfolio of Mellow mushrooms. What can you do now that you couldn't before, especially just from a real estate perspective?
- [23:57]
B
Yeah, I mean, you know, the Fast Find model really came out of a real business question, which was like, how do we bring Mellow into trade areas or real estate opportunities where, you know, putting a 4 or 5,000 square foot full service Mellow is just not feasible because either the real estate's too expensive or there's just not enough of It. And so that's, that was really, you know, the question. And so what we did is, you know, we just said, okay, well we're going to see how we can not ruin the experience, but really make it so that it's consistent. But I'm just in a smaller box. So, you know, we went around and around and saying, well, do we call this something different? Do we call it Mellow Express or Mel's Joint, you know, which is really on brand for us. But at the end of the day, you know, going back to my Starbucks example, I'm like, it's still our same good quality food. It's, it's very similar menu. Yeah, we'll try a few new things in the menu standpoint just to see how it sticks and, you know, do some tests and learn there. But at the end of the day, we're still mellow. So why try to rebuild the brand equity that we've built for 50 plus years and reteach people who we are? And I think that was one of the biggest learnings that we saw in the industry as a lot of casual dining players were, you know, doing this similar pivot. Everyone was going after a new name, right. Or, you know, I won't name names, but there's a lot of them out there. And that's what we said. You know what, we don't want to do that. We're still the same stuff. And whether it's in a 2,000 square foot mellow, which we do have, by the way, our rights to a beach location I think is 1700 square feet. It's a little shoebox. Right. Our Gatlinburg location is 14,000 square feet. So like we, and this is already stuff that we had in our system. So it wasn't like we were doing anything that, you know, dramatically different. It's just now we package it in a way that's really more appealing to franchisees and future investors because the cost of entry is a lot lower, but the volumes are still there. I mean, you know, our volumes compared to other QSR pizza players, I mean, double, double that. Right. Even in the fast mine and the full service, we're looking at, you know, close to $4 million when it comes to our top quartile, which is unheard of in the pizza category. So, you know, that knowing that we had the great product and great auvs, just need to package it a little bit different and really put a lot more emphasis on simplicity and simplification of the operations. That's what we set out to do. I think we've done a great job of that.
- [26:02]
A
Well, you know, I'll name names. Let's talk about Pizza Hut. Because Pizza Hut, I'm sure, I mean, Pizza Hut Express, you know, obviously is. Here's a brand that, you know, in the 90s, I'm a child of the 90s. I think you must have been as well. You know, you and I look about the same age. I mean, it's like that was. I went there after little league games, I went there after church. You know, you go in there with your friends, you, you know, you had that dine in experience. We can all imagine exactly what that Pizza Hut experience. Right? And then they went into Pizza Hut Express and then they just sort of lost the narrative. By the way, I love you guys at Pizza Hut. I'm not trying to kick you while you're down. I'm rooting for you. But like, that they lost. Exactly. What you're saying is they lost the brand equity. I mean, they lost the red roof, for crying out loud, in a lot of their locations. And it's like, how iconic is that? So instead of, instead of just sort of throwing out, though, that that equity that they'd built with a customer and sort of trying something new because it could fit into new locations, they should have just offered the same equity, maybe in a little bit of different packages. And it sounds like that's exactly what you guys are doing here.
- [26:59]
B
Yeah, look, because when we did this whole program, it was very easy to say, hey, you know what, we're going to make one prototype and we're just going to go everywhere with this worm prototype. Right. That's what everyone else is doing. It's easier, it's faster, it's cheaper. But to your point, that's not who we are. That's not our brand DNA. And I think guests see through that a lot clearer than we give them credit for. Right. So once you kind of start, you know, deviating from what got you there and who got you there, you know, it, I think it's just, it's clear to guess when you're not delivering on what they think you are and what you're supposed to stand for. And for us, it was localized to the community. Interesting, you know, funky art in the restaurant. A great dine in experience and a place where you can really, where I like to say is escape the mundane. Right. We are the opposite of mundane and a lot of world. Now what we do in our day to day lives can feel very mundane. And we just want to offer a Place where we. You can come and escape all of that. And that's something that we would never sacrifice on. So even though we're simplifying the box, making it, you know, cheaper, smaller, faster, better, we're still, you know, having original art in all of our restaurants, you know, murals commissioned by local artists. Really interesting wow moments. And it's like, wow. Like for example, one of our stores in the Charleston market, you walk in, there is a giant upside down disco cow hanging from the ceiling. Right. Okay. So again, things you don't expect, but you walk in and be like, huh, that's cool. Right? So those are those small moments that we felt like are so important to the brand and what got us here, that we're never going to sacrifice sacrifice on that piece. And that's really what we see the future of too.
- [28:28]
A
You mentioned kds. You talked about potential of kiosks. I'm curious how much technology especially can unlock some of this. Right? Because, I mean, AI, if you think about AI, and it's an automation, so much in technology today allows you to run a more efficient operation. What are some of those tech pieces for Mellow Mushroom that are going to work for you?
- [28:49]
B
Yeah, we're almost at the tail end of our journey of rolling out our kitchen display systems, which, you know, we're a little behind on, quite frankly. We should have done this years ago, but, you know, when you try something for the first time and it doesn't go well, you kind of get a bad taste in your mouth. You don't want to try it again for a long time. So. Right, that's what we did. But the good news is we've had a great partner that we're rolling this out with and we'll be seeing, you know, incredible impact from a guest experience standpoint. I mean, everything that we measure on food quality, the even atmosphere. Right. I mean, like, how does Katis can impact the atmosphere? But you know, when we talk to guests, it's like when your food comes out hot and it comes out on time, you feel like everything else around you is working really well too. So it's just that halo effect that we're seeing from a guest experience standpoint. And to your point about AI, a lot of the things that we're doing are things that are not necessarily going to be guest facing. So one of our mantras right now is really let's make our GMs rock stars without asking them to do anything more than they're doing today. Well, so how do you do that the way you do that is by giving them the insights and the tools that they need to be able to be successful without digging into every thing. Because we, you know this, Sam. We ask our every GM in the restaurant industry, you're an expert operator, you're an expert marketer, you're an expert HR person for hiring and terminations. I do a lot of different things. So how do you take the difficulty of the administrative side out of their hands so they can really focus on the customer experience? So that does everything from predictive prep, suggestive ordering, even things like, you know, we're actually testing out voice AI for our call in business and even, you know, predicting what our dough usage is going to be for our pizza as two, three, four days out. The dough is a living product. You can't just, you know, say, hey, I need pizza right now and I go make the dough. Right? That's just not how it works. It needs time to, to rise and all improve and all that. So that's really where we're focused on leveraging technology. Obviously we're going to have a great guest experience, right? That's my whole background. Before I joined Mellow was all about how do you make the customer experience as frictionless as possible? Because that's what people expect. But you got to think about the operator, you got to think about the GM and the staff that are actually delivering on that experience. Because as a franchisor, they're our customers, right? And then if we can take care of them, then they will pass that down and take care of the guests. And I think that's the thing that we try to preach to all of our, our staff members is treat our franchisees and our GMs, whether they're company owned or franchisee owned, like they're your customer. Because at the end, if you do right by them, they'll do right by the customer.
- [31:07]
A
Well, it's an interesting point too because it's like if I, if I think of a restaurant experience I'm having, even if the experience is a little clunky in how I order, even if there's some of that friction, as you're saying, but I get a super friendly employee interacting with me, I'm still going to go back there, right? Like, yes, I'm, we are all very spoiled in the kind of technology that allows for frictionless experiences. But the thing I remember is the hum, the human LED experience, right? And if you have a, if you have a server who is like, like, you know, interacting with your kids and, and they're, and creating A good space for them. I am going to reward you with my loyalty because that's my biggest stress point. Right. I don't care how easy it was for me to order my food. I just, I want to be. Feel like I'm taking care of, taken care of. And your employees do that, and the GM is the one who helps your employees do that, and the franchisee is the one who helps the GM to help your employees do that. So I, I mean, I respect what you're saying here, because it's like, if you don't set up your employees for success, who cares how much friction is in the experience for the, the guest? It's, it's still going to go off the rails.
- [32:10]
B
Yeah. I mean, and the ordering, you know, frictionless ordering, it's really becoming table stakes now. Right. There's so much technology out there that you don't even have to be. You don't have to build, you can buy. So, you know, getting a good ordering experience. Okay, table stakes. Where to your point, what really sets us and good brands apart is how good you're going to deliver on that promise that you're going to have a great experience. So I'll give you one example. What we did this past, this past fall is we actually sent custom plush toys to all of our restaurants. They said, look, it's, it's Christmas time or holiday time, whatever you celebrate, it's, you know, it's a gifting season. So, you know, if you see. And we empowered our GMs to empower their staff, say, look, if you see a family come in, there'll be limited time where you don't have, you know, thousands of these. But you see a family come in with kids, give them a plush toy, right? It's just a way to build that, that experience with the guests. Because to your point, and we're all parents here, if someone brought a plush toy to my kid who was crying, I'm going to remember that regardless of how good or bad my overall experience was, because it's that connection that we're trying to build with the guests that's the most important thing.
- [33:10]
A
Yes. And my kid would beg to go back over and over and over again. And I would explain, you're not getting another plush toy. You understand? I don't care. I want to go back.
- [33:18]
B
Right.
- [33:18]
A
It makes a big difference.
- [33:20]
B
It does. And the other thing is, and you know, this is the, the capitalist side of me is like, you know, we're building fans of our brand at such a young age. And so If I can, you know, I meet people that are, you know, are, you know, millennials or older millennials like us, and they're like, hey, I remember going with my parents or my grandparents after a ball game, and now I'm bringing my kids. And it's like, yeah, that's the kind of legacy that we want to create, because that's how you create a cult following without really even trying. Right. And that's what we've been really good at. But, you know, there's just so much noise out there now that we're. We're playing a lot more in the. In the awareness marketing space, too, because you have to.
- [33:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, for sure. All right. We don't have to get into specific competitors, but I do want to talk more broadly about the pizza industry, because, I mean, 20, 25, there definitely was. If we look at our data from Tecnomic for our top 500 this year, the pizza category definitely as a whole is struggling. I've mentioned some of the. Of your competitors in the QSR space that have especially been struggling now for a while. And it's interesting because it's like, I would never, ever bet against pizza. I mean, pizza. I think there was a study I read once upon a time that 90% of Americans eat pizza at least months, monthly, or maybe weekly. I forget.
- [34:29]
B
I thought it was weekly.
- [34:30]
A
Yeah, it might be weekly. And I mean, which is astonishing. I mean, that's more than anything else. Right? I mean, I am one of those households. Pizza night, Friday night. Friday night pizza night is 100% something we do, and yet we have this narrative that maybe the pizza category is losing steam. I suspect maybe you can validate. Do you feel like, really, the. The issue at play is more brand oriented, less category oriented? I mean, is it just a lot more pizza places to spread dollars around? How would you prescribe what's going on now in pizza?
- [34:56]
B
Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. I think people are getting a little bit tired of the sameness, because the pizza industry, especially in qsr, has been dominated by, like, the four. Four major players out there for decades now. Right. So I think there has been a little bit of an opening for brands like us that, you know, we're not small by any means, but we're not nearly as big as some of the other players. So then we. There's a niche out there that I think guests are looking for that is different than what they've always got. But at the same time, you know, if you think about what's out there. I think I read a stat the other day where I think we're. There was a compression of restaurants coming out of the pandemic because of the things that we all know about. But now there's actually, I think, 10 to 15% more restaurants out there than they were pre pandemic. Right. So now he's got a lot of options out there. And I think all of these different cuisines kind of go through their moment. Right. I think, you know, Mexican has had its moment. I think now we're seeing. I think chicken has been in its moment. Right. Fried chicken. But I think maybe we're kind of getting to the later cycles of that. The Mediterranean is about to have their moment. So I think this is just. I think it's a passing thing. And then, you know, once we can kind of get through it and continue to deliver on the great experience, I think the guests will come back around because they're looking for something different that they haven't had before.
- [36:10]
A
Yeah, I mean, you know, my family, we tend to rotate our business through every Friday. You know, we kind of rotate around to the local shops, the big chains. But I just wonder, especially when you consider some of the struggles, specifically Pizza Hut and Papa John's, do you think that sort of experiential component that we've been talking about, do you think that that's starting to drive the bus a lot more on the pizza category in particular, where families are, their. Their standards are higher and they want a little bit more out of that experience simply than the. I can press one button and it shows up on my doorstep.
- [36:41]
B
Yeah. I think the one button, you know, to order has just been. Again, let's get into table stakes now. I mean, everyone's got Amazon prime, right? Okay, got it. I can get it fast. Great. But what about everything else? Right. And I think to your point, I think you're absolutely right, Sam, is the stale experiences no longer work. And if you don't have an experience that is memorable and it's craveable, I think that's why the pizza segment, especially in qsr, is struggling. Because there's nothing that makes me say this is so different than what I can get at any other place. And I think if you can't answer, why is this so much different besides the price point? Because at the end of the day, you know, I think we talked about this earlier. Your. Your experience and your value is not just a price. Right. It's everything else that goes with that. So I can. As if I'm QSR pizza. I may be able to win on price, but I'm not winning in all the other aspects that make a great experience. And I think that's what the guests and our customers are realizing. And they're voting with their dollars now. So they're going to places where they're gonna have a little bit better experience and where it feels like, hey, I can get the same amount of food or better food or more food for about the same price point as I'm getting a QSR pizza, why wouldn't I try something else? So I think that's really what we're seeing. And for us specifically, our visual identity and our food has been an asset for us that I think a lot of other brands would kill for. And we don't even, you know, we don't have to try that hard because of our roots. We were born in this era and we've kind of just stayed the same and evolved over time, but really stayed true to who we are. And I think being authentic and portraying that in our food, our beverage, and our store design and the experience that we provide, I think that's what's setting us apart. And, you know, I'm happy to say that we're not seeing some of the same challenges that many of the other QSR pizza brands are.
- [38:27]
A
It's amazing how timeless so much of the. I mean, you mentioned the Jam bands. I mean, I know people who still travel to see Fish and Grateful Dead. Even now you're one of them. There you go. So Mellow Mushrooms, your perfect opportunity here.
- [38:39]
B
I was a huge Deadhead before I joined Mellow, and I was like, really? Like, you look at my office. I got the two dead bears in my office. And it's just really cool because the brand was just founded on this jam band era. And I'm like, man, that's my music, man. So, like, this is.
- [38:53]
A
There you go.
- [38:54]
B
Made in Heaven.
- [38:54]
A
So match made in Heaven. But isn't that so interesting? Like, there's something about those bands that we. It just. It just reeks of 70s. So it is timely. Simultaneously, there's something about the experience of it that still resonates on 50 years on that people still want and embrace. Maybe some of it's that nostalgia. We all know nostalgia is huge now. Maybe you guys are kind of kind of riding on that.
- [39:17]
B
Yeah, I think, you know, we are leaning into that. So our new store that we're opening up, it's our new. It's our second prototype of the counter service model we've designed It. It's called it Neutro, Right. It's new retro, so it's still using some of the color palettes and. And things like that from the 70s, but doing it in a more modern way and so leaning into that nostalgia. But I think to your point about jam bands, I think a lot of it is just that emotional connection, you know, that. That you get with those bands, you know? And again, when you're a kid and you're coming in with your parents, you're developing those core memories, and that creates that special attachment that you have with those memories. And that's really what I think we've been able to capitalize on for so many decades. It's just being. Having a place in people's hearts and minds at the end of the day. And that's really. I think that's important, that it can't be transactional. Everything. I get it. We're a capitalist society. It's all about same store sales and growth and how do I grow the check. The end of the day, it's about that emotional connection. If you can't deliver on that, then we're doing something wrong.
- [40:12]
A
Asan, I think we're having an epiphany here, because I'm like, whoa. Bands and brands are like the same thing, and it's all about relationships.
- [40:23]
B
That's the r. The difference, right? Bands, brands are relationships.
- [40:27]
A
You know what? Let's take the show on the road. I think we gotta spread the gospel of this all over the place, because I've never made that association, and I'm completely blown away by that now. All right, let's talk about the future of Mellow Mushroom. So what. I mean, you guys obviously see this transformation as being key to kind of unlocking more growth potential, but you're already a couple years into it. Are you starting to see the fruits of that labor already?
- [40:49]
B
100%. I mean, like I said, so from a traffic standpoint, we've been. I think we got a little bit more Runway that we want to get, you know, get cleared up, but we've been happy with where we've had so far. From a growth standpoint, you know, we're getting growth back on track. You know, for the first time, actually, we're getting close to 170 stores. But for the first time, and literally this was almost a year ago, we actually set up a formal franchise development, you know, organization within our company. So, like I said, without. Without actually going out and doing this in terms of selling and being at the shows and talking about who we are and our value proposition, we've grown to who we are today. And so some of that work that we kicked off about three years ago is really showing up now. You know, we've signed so far. We're about halfway done with our fiscal year. We've signed seven new deals, which is, you know, which is sizable for a brand with 170 units. Because we don't want to grow too fast either. Right. And that's what our founders always preach is like, hey, I want to stay small. I want to feel like it's a local community thing. I don't want to become one of the big guys. And so, you know, we've taken that to heart, but we still want to grow. So, you know, we've seen a lot more signings and we're, we're not done yet. Obviously, you know, we want to start getting to that 10 to 12% growth rate. And we're seeing a lot of interest from the investor and franchise community. We're very selective, Sam, because at the end of the day, you know, if you can't be a good culture fit and a brand fit. For example, we celebrate 420. It's a holiday for in the brand, not, not literally for the sports center, but we celebrate it in the restaurants. You know, we have our 420 special that we did a few weeks ago. If that's something that's going to rub you the wrong way, you know, and we're not saying you got to be, you got to embrace that lifestyle, that counterculture, but that's going to rub you the wrong way, then maybe we're not the right fit. And we do. We have those conversations a lot in Discovery Days. Look, this is who we are as a brand. This is what got us here. And we're not going to deviate from that. So this is not something that you're passionate about and you can relate to. Then again, maybe we're not the right, you know, we're not the right partners for you. So we're seeing a lot of, a lot of people come in. We're seeing a lot of growth and we're excited to, you know, even explore non traditional here very soon. And a hybrid model, which I'm really excited about because, you know, I drink a lot, the younger generation, so I want a full bar experience. But, you know, counter service works, especially in markets where their labor is challenging. You know, we've seen what that has done in Florida and Virginia and some of the other states. So that's really a way we're going to maintain profitability by just having more formats for our franchisees to choose from.
- [43:08]
A
Yeah, for sure. How much are you trying to focus on existing franchisees versus new franchisees, balancing that growth between the two sides?
- [43:17]
B
Yeah, I think it's a balance of both. We take a rigorous process in determining a qualified franchisee and even our existing franchisees. Right. Like, do you have the infrastructure, do you have the support systems? And more importantly, you have the energy to do what you think you want to do. Right. Because it, when we have a full service concept, you know, you know, that's, let's say, you know, one and a half to $2 million to build. Now we offer something that's a lot more cost effective. That raises a lot of eyebrows. But the question is, can you deliver on the experience that we want you to deliver? So we, we take a really scrutiny, scrutinized role in that when we evaluate even our existing franchisees. But we've seen a lot of growth coming from new, new, new energy coming into the system from new franchisees that have either seen some of our conversations like you and I are having, or seeing a lot of our advertising or, and usually this is the case, like, hey, I just went to a Mellow and I thought this was really cool experience. And I thought it was, the food was fantastic and how do I become a part of this? And to me that's such a great validator because you can do all the advertising, you can do all the franchise sales. At the end of the day, people are going to, you know, pick up, pick up themselves and go to the restaurant, then just try it. And if that's really a not a great experience, then the rest doesn't matter. And that's what we're delivering on. And of course, unit economics have to work too, so. And I think we've done a pretty good job of that with our AUVs and our profitability.
- [44:32]
A
Yeah. All right, Asan, last question is. Let's say you and I have this conversation again in five years. We sit down and you review like you did, this big transformation over the course of a couple of years. You've had a little bit of time to see how it's worked out. You've, you've kind of worked through the pipeline that you guys now have for your franchisees. Where do you see this brand? Maybe not even five years now, maybe just three years out. How. What do you think is possible for Mellow Mushroom?
- [44:57]
B
Well, you know, the one thing I like to tell any, anyone that I talk to that's looking to become a part of our Mellow Mushroom brand and culture is that, you know, we're still family owned, which is rare to find in the industry. So our time horizon is not necessary. Yes, we think in the, you know, three years out and five years out. But, but when you sign a franchise agreement, your franchise agreement is 10 or 15 years. So, you know, that gives us a lot of luxury to say, look, we're with you during this whole process because we are thinking 10, 15 years out too. Not just how am I going to, you know, what's my exit strategy in three years from now when a different institutional capital partner comes in, let's say. So that really helps separate us when we have those conversations. Where we see the brand going is really becoming the utmost premium pizza and drink destination in our markets that we operate in. I don't ever see us getting to that point where we have a thousand or two thousand locations because that's just not who we are. But I think slow and methodical growth and scaling the Fast Fine and the Hybrid models, I think we'll see a lot of that over the coming years as we prove out that our brand can work just as well in a smaller box in Fast Fine or a hybrid, just as good as it can work in full service. Especially as people start to, you know, go a little bit more, dine in. Even though we've seen a lot of big push on off premise. So, you know, if I, if I think about what 2035 is going to look like, because I'm thinking 10 years out, I think we'll, we're in 17 states now. Would love to be in 25 to 26 states, if not more, and then just really fill in the markets that we're already operating in with great partners and great franchisees.
- [46:33]
A
Exciting to watch. Asan Jiva, the executive vice president of strategy and transformation. Really appreciate your time. Asan. I'm hungry now. I want to go find Mellow Mushroom. I gotta. You're not in Ohio. I don't think I gotta travel away.
- [46:47]
B
Westchester, Wilder and New Albany.
- [46:50]
A
Oh, you're in New Albany.
- [46:51]
B
Okay.
- [46:51]
A
You're only about 30 minutes from me, so I'm gonna go find some Mellow Mushroom.
- [46:54]
B
Yeah, I said you're away, Ma.
- [46:57]
A
Awesome. Azan, appreciate your time. Thanks so much. That was my interview with Mellow Mushrooms rooms. Asan Jiva. So what should you learn from this interview? Here are my seven takeaways. My first takeaway is that a barbell pricing strategy can extend to your beverage menu. So you probably know what a barbell pricing strategy is. This is where you have some value priced items on your menu and you have some premium priced items on your menu. This way you can get away with that value messaging, you know, draw the attention of value conscious customers who come into your restaurant, but subsidize that with more premium priced options for people who are looking to your restaurant for some quality food. Barbell pricing strategies are very popular right now, of course, because the entire industry is looking for ways to communicate value to their guests and that's one of the safer ways of doing that. But we always talk about barbell pricing strategies when it comes to food. I just never really talk about it when it comes to beverage. And I thought it was really interesting what a San was saying about how Mellow Mushroom is exploring barbell pricing with their beverage menu, specifically in their bar. So a very good example of this, he said, is their cocktails. Historically, Mellow Mushroom has had more premium priced cocktails. Now they're trying to have some value priced cocktails as an option as well. And one of the ways they're exploring that having those value prices is through the spirit quality. So if you have a cocktail, you think about a cocktail, of course you have the spirit and then you have the mix. It's according to a sign, you know, the mix ins. This is really where the quality comes from and this is where so much of your unique cocktail flavor comes from. So you want to protect that quality. You don't want to short do any shortcuts there. But when it comes to a spirit, maybe whereas before you had a top shelf spirit you were using look a little bit lower on the shelf instead, because you're not necessarily going to sacrifice so much of the flavor as you would with the mix ins. So this is a way that you can create a value price cocktail. This might especially be important today to attract younger customers. As Asan and I were talking about, Gen Z seems to be drinking less. And a lot of the reason why could be because of prices, cocktails especially. But really all alcohol is really expensive today just like everything else is. So maybe Gen Z is just not drinking because they just are more budget conscious right now. Offer them some lower prices when it comes to your cocktails, your beer, your wine. Figure out ways you can create efficiencies in your bar menu so you can do that and you can have value, even a barbell pricing strategy on your bar service. My second takeaway is that you should consider the fringes of your menu for innovation. Mellow Mushroom of course, is all about pizza. Over 50 plus years, they've developed this core menu of pizzas that people have come to know and love, but they also have salads and sandwiches and some other things. And Asan was saying that they're looking at those, up those corners of the menu for innovation
- [49:47]
B
especially.
- [49:47]
A
They're looking at this because you know the core menu when it's so important to your business, when it's what your loyal fans know you for, you don't want to tinker with it too much. You don't want to mess with a good thing. And there's more white space in some of these corners where you have less sales. So sandwiches, for example, if you're a pizza concept with a couple of sandwiches, your sandwiches are, let's say, just less than 10% of your menu. Well, maybe you can drive that up to more than 10% of your menu without taking share from your pizza sales. So you want to innovate there and draw attention to that part of the menu by adding some new sandwiches or some exciting new flavor combinations, whatever that might be. So look to the corners of your menu where there's maybe not a lot going on, but you're really, you really have that because you want to eliminate the veto vote, give those corners of the menu some excitement, something fun, something that you can tell the story in your marketing through that innovation. My third takeaway is that the pizza category may have a use case problem. The pizza industry right now is struggling. You maybe have seen the numbers. But according to our Most recent Technomic Top 500, pizza was the only menu category that went backward in sales. Sales were negative 0.3% in 2025. Every other menu category experienced positive sales growth. Especially if you look at the top of the pizza category. Some of the bigger chains, you know, Pizza Hut and Papa John's are two brands that are really struggling right now with negative sales. They're trying to figure out, you know, what is the right story to tell to their guests, what's the right way to drive some excitement. And there's a couple of problems we're going to get into now. And I think the first case, the first problem might be use case. What I mean by that is there's a use case for, you know, why people come into your restaurant. Maybe it's dinner time and they're hungry. Maybe they're on the road for a business conference and they need a quick lunch. Maybe they, it's Sunday and you want to go out with your family for dinner. These are all individual Use cases. Pizza has kind of settled into one use case, I would say, and that's probably Friday night dinner delivered pizza. A son was talking about the fact that Mellow Mushroom especially is a full service restaurant, but one that has robust dine in business and, you know, kind of a fun vibe that you want to go inside and experience. This is, you know, it's offering different kinds of use cases than your traditional QSR pizza joint. Mellow Mushroom isn't just a delivered pizza. It is one that you want to come and sit inside a Mellow Mushroom and enjoy it with maybe your family or maybe a friend or on a date or whatever that might be. And so, you know, by doing this, Mellow Mushroom appeals to a broader swath of customers because there are going to be some customers out there who don't want just a delivered pizza or maybe somebody who want a beer with their pizza, or maybe they want something that appeals to their kids, their family, and those are going to be different use cases than that. Maybe again, traditional drop a pizza off of at your doorstep. So how can you as a pizza restaurant, explore more use cases for your product, not just delivery. Maybe you add dine in. Maybe if you're, you have a healthy dinner business, think about ways you can bump your lunch business. There are more ways to attract guests because there's a guest for every use case, a guest for every time of day, every demographic, every type of group of people who want to come eat at your restaurant. You can serve them if you explore new use cases related to that. My fourth takeaway is that pizza also has an experience problem. So similar to these, these use cases, pizza, I think, has become much too commodified in chasing that convenience, that value, that accessibility through delivery. This is especially true, of course, of QSR pizza. And the perfect example of this, as I have talked about on a lot of podcasts, is Pizza Hut. Now, I don't mean to beat a dead horse while they're down. I am rooting for Pizza Hut. This is a business I think has so much potential. But as a kid of the 90s, that remembers so vividly those Pizza Hut experiences after church, after baseball games, you know, with my friends, with my classmates doing book it. These are very seminal memories to me. And what I can think of in my head is that, you know, dim lighting inside the Pizza Hut that had that red roof, you know, those, those, you know, unique Tiffany lamps, those glasses that were like kind of foggy glasses. I don't even know how to describe them. You know, probably exactly what I'm talking about though, because you probably have had that experience at Pizza Hut. At some point, Pizza Hut moved into Pizza Hut Express. It chased that convenience and that value through delivery and pickup, and it just kind of lost that spirit of the experience of Pizza Hut. You have so many brands that are trying to reclaim that now, and Mellow Mushroom is one of them. And obviously full service is one way to do it. Now Mellow Mushroom is exploring this hybrid service model, this fast, fine model, as Asan was talking about. And really what it comes down to is how do you serve guests a memorable, craveable experience, as Asan said. And you really don't have much of an opportunity to do that if you're just doing that through, especially third party delivery. You want guests to come inside your restaurant, experience the restaurant, the vibe, the culture, the personality of your restaurant. You want to serve kids and families in unique ways. You know, a son's talked about this example of in around the holidays where they were giving out plush toys to kids and just making their day, putting a smile on their face. These all speak to the experience of the restaurant. And I just think pizza again, maybe has become a little bit too commodified around that off premises service and it needs to come back into more memorable experiences. By the way, I think you can do that through delivery too, probably not through third party. But maybe the point here is to say is that if you're a pizza, a pizza restaurant, or if you're looking into the pizza industry, you have to be thinking about the fact that guests want to create memories around your product and you have a great opportunity to build guest loyalty by giving them those memories and so you can do that through unique experiences. Again, I'm rooting for Pizza Hut and everybody else in this category. I love pizza. I'm doing pizza every week like most Americans. But I really do believe strongly that we have an experience problem and a use case problem, and pizza really needs to kind of solve for those in order to come back. My fifth takeaway is that chains should consider the jam band approach where no two experiences are alike. I loved this part of the conversation where a San was talking about the fact that Mellow Mushroom treats all of its 170 locations essentially like independent restaurants. It wants every single one to have its own flavor and vibe and personality. You know, it's a franchise concept. So the franchisees are really helping to embed that local community into the restaurant through unique art, you know, maybe unique music and experiences. I think this is great. It makes me think of something like a Hard Rock Cafe. You know, you would buy the T shirt that said Hard Rock Cafe with the, you know, the, the city name under it. As Asan and I were Talking about, I 100% had like three different cities hard Rock Cafe shirts. I don't know why, but the point is, is that you kind of root for that specific community's location, especially if it's your community and restaurants, even if there is trade dress, even if there's some consistency in branding you're looking for across your locations, they have an opportunity to bring some distinct flavor and personality into each individual restaurant because it's going to make that local community really rally around that particular location. And, you know, maybe you don't have people trying to tour all of your different locations to collect them all, like Pokemon, like we talked about in this conversation. But I do think what it does is it shows your customer base that you care about some of those, you know, details. That attention to detail is so important, especially if it's bringing in the local community, because then you're not feeling, feeling like just another chain, you're feeling like a part of the community. And I think this is such a cool, unique way to bring again that experience we were talking about and build a relationship with your guests. My sixth takeaway is that no matter how varied your experience is, the brand must be consistent. So again, this word experience, we're talking about it a lot today. Holy cow. Experience is so important. And as I just got done saying, you know, you want to do that jam band approach. I didn't even explain the jam band approach, by the way. The jam band, you know, Fish and Grateful Dead, they don't play two of the same concerts ever. They're always improvising and jamming and riffing. That's what we meant by jam band approach anyway. I'm sure you got that reference. So the experience, though, if you're going the jam band approach and you're trying to differentiate that experience across your locations, one thing you have to very much keep consistent and the same, and that is your brand. That was what a Sam was saying around this idea that like, you know, with this fast, fine model that Mellow Mushroom has developed with the goal of appealing to franchisees who can kind of take it into new communities, that it maybe didn't fit in before they, they thought about this idea of having a kind of a spin off brand for Mellow Mushroom. And it was a little bit different. It wasn't dynamic, but, you know, it's takeout and delivery and they really kind of came to the conclusion that that's not the Mellow Mushroom brand. They wanted to protect what Mellow Mushroom had been, have become known for, which is those countercultural vibes that the art of the place, the vibe of the place, that personality we've been talking about. And I think there's an important lesson here, which is to say you might have a big location and a small location. You might, you know, change the, the layout of your restaurant. In every community you go into. There may be a lot of different kind of elements you bring into your restaurants that differ city by city. But at the core should be your brand. It should distinctly speak of, of who you are in one city versus the other through that branding. The great example that a sign used here was Starbucks, Starbucks. As he said, you know, you have these Starbucks in some cities where it's the, you know, the big multi level Starbucks where it's this whole, you know, experience with the baristas. You have your all the way down to your Starbucks in a Target or a Starbucks in an airport or Starbucks. There's Starbucks everywhere. But the point is, is that you never mistake it for something other than Starbucks. It's always Starbucks. Even if it's a large location or a small location, wherever it is, it comes back down to that same exact brand you know and expect from Starbucks. Mellow Mushrooms doing the same thing. I highly recommend you do the same with your own brand, even if you are changing up the experience store by store. My seventh and final takeaway is the best use for new tech tools is to supercharge your gm. So Asan's title is all about strategy and transformation. He's been a big part of this three year transformation that Mellow Mushroom has been undergoing. And technology of course has been a part of that. But as he said, with you know, technology, they've looked at kiosks and things like that, but they just don't think that's the way they want to go. They don't want to replace the human driven hospitality of their restaurants. Instead they're looking at things like kitchen display systems and AI and using AI in the back of house to really improve things for employees. But I like what he said around the GMs. A son said they want to turn their GMs into rock stars by giving them the tools through technology to make their lives easier. And as he pointed out, you know, GMs are the ones who are going to take care of your guests, right? The GM is, are running your, you know, your floor level employees. Those people are delivering great hospitality to guests. It's important that that GM gets it right and is empowered to do their job well. And technology can do that. Yes, you can just get distracted by a lot of the bells and whistles around technology, especially something like a kiosk, which by the way might be right for some restaurants. But if if that sort of consumer facing, bell and whistle shiny toy kind of technology is not right for you, there's a lot of ways in which you can incorporate some of this really cool new technology in the back of the house to make the lives of your employees and especially your GM easier because that's going to ultimately trickle down to your guest. Those are all my takeaways for today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe to Takeaway and leave some feedback. You can also email me at sam.okishwarma.com thanks again and talk to you next week. Are you a leader at an emerging restaurant chain that's ready to level up? Then Create? The event for emerging restaurateurs is your ultimate destination. This July 20th through 22nd. Join your fellow restaurant entrepreneurs for three action packed days of connection, inspiration and growth. Meet potential new partners through our Speed Dating Style one to one meetings and get face to face with potential investors at the Investment Summit. Keynote speakers include Netflix star Phil Rosenthal, Chipotle founder Steve Ells and Panda Express founders Andrew and Peggy Cheung. This one of a kind restaurant event is set against the stunning backdrop of Terranea Resort's California coastline. And hey, bring the whole family for vacation while you're at it. By registering for Create Today, you'll unlock specially discounted prices for Disneyland. 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