← Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
Buzz Knight and Bob Mould: Exploring the Creative Journey Behind Sugar's Impactful Music Legacy
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- [00:01]
Buzz Knight
Taking a Walk I'm Buzz Knight, and welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast. Now few artists have shaped the sound and soul of American rock music as profoundly as Bob Mold. From the white knuckle fury Husker do to his landmark solo work, Mold has always operated at the intersection of raw power and melodic genius. But when he joined forces with bassist David Barbee and drummer Malcolm Travis to form Sugar in late 1990, something truly special was unleashed. Their debut at Athens, Georgia's legendary 40 Watt Club signaled the arrival of a band that would quickly rewrite the rules of alternative rock. When Sugar went their separate ways after a Japanese tour in 1995, they left behind one of the most celebrated catalogs in rock history, a body of work that has only grown in stature and with each passing decade. And now, 30 years later, the band is back. Bob Mold, David Barbee and Malcolm Travis reconvened in June 2025 to record House of Dead Memories, their first new Sugar song in over 30 years. Today, we're gonna walk down memory lane with the one and only Bob Mold to talk about the Sugar Journey then and now. Coming up next on Taking a Walk.
- [01:27]
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- [02:02]
Bob Mould
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Bob Mould
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- [03:39]
Buzz Knight
Taking a Walk Welcome Bob Mole to the Taking a Walk podcast.
- [03:44]
Bob Mould
Hey, how you doing, Buzz? Thank you for having me.
- [03:46]
Buzz Knight
I'm doing great. Now take us back to the formation of Sugar after. After everything you had been through with Husker do in your early solo years, what was the emotional and creative headspace you were in when you started building this band?
- [04:04]
Bob Mould
Oh my gosh, I felt like it was. I felt like I had something to prove. So with my first band, who's Cardew, we started in March of 79 and wrapped up in January of 88. When I walked away from Huskerdieu, I just started writing music for myself and writing it in a completely different style than I had written with huskerdu. I made two solo records workbook in 1989, black sheets of rain in 1990, had a wonderful rhythm section, you know, the late Anton Fear and bassist Tony Maimon. I had big management, big lawyer, big accountant, big record company. And at the end of two records I had a big debt. So I had to start over in the beginning of 91 and that I spent all of 1991. I was living in Brooklyn, New York and what I would do is write a bunch of songs. Then I would go on the road for three weeks and play solo acoustic and electric shows and I would try out all of these new songs I had just written. At the end of a three week tour I would go back to Brooklyn and write for a couple of weeks and then do more shows and try out more new songs. And all of this in 91. When I say I had to prove myself, I had to start from scratch again, you know, to, you know, find, you know, people to help me with legal stuff. You know, I'm trying to make enough money to possibly record a new record. You know, I'm sort of, you know, felt a little bit not burned by the business but just felt like I tried it the big way. Let me see if I maybe I should go back to the, to the. To the way. I know the, the do it yourself kind of way. So 91 continues on and I'm touring and I'm touring and I'm in Europe and I'm playing festivals with, you know, Nirvana and Dinosaur Jr. And all the, you know, the bands that were just, you know, getting really big, that were loud guitar bands. And I'm like, huh, Feels like something's about to happen here. Got got together with. With Alan McGee, who, who was running Creation Records in the UK, got together with the folks at Rico Disc in the US and we worked out parallel record deals, you know, very modest budgets. And I had all these songs and I had to find some musicians. So David Barbee was an. A friend of a friend. He was playing in a band called Mercyland in Athens, Georgia. So got together with David, seemed like a good guy. I was like, great. So I think I have a bass player, Malcolm Travis, the drummer of Sugar. I knew Malcolm from his prior band, the Zulus. I produced an album for the Zulus in 1988. So I was very familiar with Malcolm as a friend and as a drummer and thought, right, well, I got David and I got Malcolm. So early 92, the three of us get together in Athens, Georgia, which is still David's hometown, and we set to learning these 30 songs that I've chosen for what was ostensibly the next Bob Mold solo record. Right before we were to depart Athens to head to New England to record these songs, Barry Green, she was the, and still is the owner of the 40 Watt Club in Athens, Georgia. Barry asked us, said, hey, I know you guys are going to make a record, but do you want to play a show? There's like, there's an open day next week. And we said, oh, sure, why not? We were at breakfast at a Waffle House in Athens, Georgia, and I said to the guys, I said, should we give this a band name? They're like, yeah, why not? So I looked down at the table in this Waffle House, and there was a packet of Sugar on the table. The same font that we used for Sugar, Copper Blue. Album cover said, how about Sugar? That sounds like a good name. And that was. That was that. I love it.
- [08:57]
Buzz Knight
Well, don't all good things start at the Waffle House?
- [09:01]
Bob Mould
A lot of bad things can start there, too. But a lot of things can. A lot of things can start at Waffle. Yeah. Yeah.
- [09:11]
Buzz Knight
So go back to the live debut there at the 40 watt club. There you paint a picture about that night.
- [09:21]
Bob Mould
It was a pretty warm evening because I have a handful of photos that were taken at the show and all three of us are wearing shorts and T shirts. So it was A very unglamorous pack of guys on a very hot, crowded stage. The stage wasn't crowded, but the room was very crowded. The temperature was hot, people. Nobody knew anything about what was about to happen. It was literally our first time in public with this music. The songs that became Copper Blue were fairly well formed and sounded like live versions of what you know, the record to be. There was also this group of somewhat instrumental tracks that were. That had a vague. You know, I was looking at them as like a suite of songs that would be, you know, vaguely, you know, speaking towards religion and, you know, heavier, darker subjects. So we had, you know, these two disparate packs of songs and we just sort of played a show and people came a little unglued and there was a few music critics there, and we just sort of worked our way through, you know, an hour and 20 minutes of music. And at the end of it, we were like, oh, that was pretty good. And within two days, we were heading up to New England to. To record the. Those two records.
- [11:05]
Buzz Knight
So you and David Barbee and Malcolm Travis, I mean, you developed a chemistry pretty quickly. Is there something about this that you can explain why chemistry happens quickly in other cases? Why it doesn't?
- [11:23]
Bob Mould
Well, I could give a couple historical references to set it up with. With Huskerdoo. I met Grant Hart by accident at a record store in St. Paul, Minnesota. And we got to talking and he said he played drums and keyboards. And I said, I play guitar. And then he was like, yeah, whatever. And then I said, no, come check it out. And I played a little. I went back to the dorm with Grant, played some guitar. He's like, we got to start a band. I know a guy who plays bass. He works at another record store. So that's how Husker do came together with Anton Fear and Tony Maimon. Anton had been in consideration for producing the what became the last Husker Doo record warehouse Songs and Stories. So Anton was a fan of that band and we had mutual friends. And when I needed. When I got to the point where it was the time to record Workbook, Anton volunteered to play drums and suggested Tony Maimon, who was the bass player in Para Ubu, which was a band that I loved. So that's how that band came together with David and Malcolm. It was as I laid out where David was living in Athens, he was playing in a group called Mercyland. So I. And we had mutual friends. So that's how I got to know David, with Malcolm, with producing the Zulu's record that's how I knew Malcolm. But when the three of us got together in Athens, David and Malcolm had not spoken or met or anything as there was no Internet, there was no zoom, there was nothing. It was like you had a phone and you had postage stamps. So to the chemistry of it, I was just working on a hunch that those two guys would get along well. And I was right. And the three of us getting together to make music. I had sent David and Malcolm pretty fairly detailed instructions and fairly clear demo versions of the songs. So it was as if the three of us came together around a table, you know, like an architect's table. But we already knew the plans, so it was just a matter of playing together and, you know, hanging out and having breakfast at the Waffle House and then just dialing in the, you know, I guess dialing in the songs and watching the chemistry evolve naturally. But it was, yeah, I mean, very, it was very different than either. And I, I had before Sugar and you never really know, right? I mean, I, I, I, I, I sort of put a bet down on the table like, okay, these are the guys and this is what we're doing and you hope for the best. And with the three of us, it clicked pretty quickly.
- [14:49]
Buzz Knight
Well, did Copper Blues, the scale of the response from the audience surprise you?
- [14:57]
Bob Mould
The first show in Athens, Honestly, I just remember the heat, the crowd. It was just sort of a wild gig and to, you know, to wrap it up with all of the, the, you know, the, the beaster stuff, which didn't have definitive words, but I was sort of improvising off the top of my head and just yelling and carrying on. I mean, that's, that's pretty much the most of what I remember about that
- [15:28]
Buzz Knight
specific day and, but when Copper Blue appeared, you know. Album of the Year Enemies Album of the year 1992. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a massive statement for a brand new band, you know, you never know, right?
- [15:45]
Bob Mould
You never know. You know, the only things I knew, you know, Alan McGee, who ran Creation was, was so certain of the songs when I, when I, when I went over and I played demos for him, you know, for Alan, he was just, he was very quick to say we're, we're all in with this, whatever, whatever you're doing with these songs where we are in. And you know, Creation was, you know, such a hot label, you know, I mean, My Bloody Valentine, Loveless and you know, and then Primal Scream and then, you know, beyond that, you know, Swerve Driver and Boo Radley's and, you know, later on Oasis, you know, I mean, Alan, Alan was able to get people's attention on behalf of the band. So very grateful for how that all started up in the UK with Ryko Disc in the us. You know, again, great folks, you know, John Hammond, Jeff Rugby, Jim Neal, Don Rose, I mean, the Kerry Spingen and a lot of the Lars Murray. A lot of the people at the label, you know, again, very dedicated. But Reicho was a different kind of label back then. You know, it was, you know, it was David Bowie sound and vision. It was the Zappa catalog. You know, they were more of a reissue or legacy label, I guess, at the time. So they, you know, they were maybe less proven in breaking, you know, a new indie rock band than Creation. But Raiko did a great job and it felt like the momentum that was already happening in the uk, we were able to import some of that back to the US and I think it was maybe January of 93 when enemy named Copper Blue Album of the year. I think that was right when Sugar and Rykodisk and Creation put out the if I Can't Change youe Mind video. And I remember the folks at KROQ were like, wait, Sugar's, they're an American band. Why aren't we on this? And that was when everything really started in the us. It took a little bit longer, but it got really big really fast in the US as well.
- [18:13]
Buzz Knight
We'll be right back with more of
- [18:15]
Bob Mould
the Taking a Walk podcast.
- [18:17]
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- [21:42]
Bob Mould
welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast.
- [21:46]
Buzz Knight
So how, over time, do you end up feeling about a song such as if I can't change your mind, does your feeling about it evolve? Does it represent to you a certain larger arc of your songwriting? Can you talk about that?
- [22:04]
Bob Mould
Well, I mean, it's the big Sugar song, and it's funny. I'm trying to. Let me try to figure out a way to frame this properly. When I saw the video for Smells Like Teen Spirit and I, I knew, you know, I, I was just like, okay, this is gonna win. Because the representation in the video was very much. It was for the guys and it was for the gals. It was. And to me, it almost felt like, I think they're gonna win because A, they're fucking amazing and B, this is gonna be an instance where, you know, gals are gonna grab their guys to say, we gotta go to this show and everybody's gonna love it. Right? It was so different than maybe hair metal. So I was like, oh, wow. There's like this, there's a, you know, this song is gonna do. This song is gonna bring everybody together and we're going to go with this. And then, you know, maybe over the years of playing if I Can't Change youe Mind, and for me, like playing it with Sugar and then playing it solo or with Bob Moldband or invariably, that's the song where if I look at the crowd, it's like, you know, all the gals are coming up like, this is the song. And I was like, oh my God, how did I do this? It's a long story, but I hope that that all conveys a little bit without sounding like an old guy saying weird things. But it just had the. It had the universe. It was the universal thing. Right?
- [23:54]
Buzz Knight
Yep, I get it.
- [23:55]
Bob Mould
So it was like, oh my God, how did I. How did that happen?
- [23:58]
Buzz Knight
Yep. Talking about Beaster, it debuts number three on the UK albums chart, which must have been like a really cool moment thinking about how you respect the impact of the UK and what it has meant to your career. Do you feel BSTER has ever gotten its full due, or does it kind of live in the shadow of Copper Blue?
- [24:25]
Bob Mould
Oh, no. They were recorded together. It's the evil twin. It's all. I think the fact that it went in the charts so high and it had a pretty deep impact on people, but it was a different. It was a whole different kind of. It was a whole different style of record than Copper Blue. And it's funny because they were made together and they were built the same way. I mean, they were built at the same time with the same sort of drums first, bass next, get the foundation solid, and then I'm putting tons of layers of colors and paint and stuff on top of this very firm foundation with critical stuff. I don't know. I mean, it felt like a success to me then maybe, maybe it's a little bit in the shadow historically, but no, I, I, I. The two are so tied together for me. I, I don't, no, I, I, I, I don't feel like it. I don't feel like it got shorted at all.
- [25:40]
Buzz Knight
I want to talk about File under Easy Listening and in particular, the song believe what you're saying with that kind of country feel to it. Can you talk about influences that kind of led to that and your desire to push the band in their range?
- [25:59]
Bob Mould
Yeah. So in the summer of 93, I had been living in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. I moved to Austin, Texas. And for the few months that I had off in 93, when I was trying to write what became Fuel. I mean, I was in Austin, you know, I was going to see, you know, roots players. It was completely. It was, it was a style of music that I wasn't familiar with. And that was a big, you know, that was a big part of what Austin was in 93, 94, you know, not only, you know, not only Willie and, you know, but, I mean, people like Alejandro. And there was so much stuff going on in that. In that style, it was hard not to be influenced by it. So I brought some of that, you know, the quieter, you know, I guess more country, more Americana kind of vibe to the songwriting for File under Easy Listening. And it's, it's funny now with the, you know, with the singles collection box coming out and, you know, sort of reuniting the B sides with the, the, you know, the, the outtakes with the A side and B side of Fuel, the album. It's like now I see those three different pieces of the record and, and, and, and it's funny. Fuel Fuel could have been a very different record had I not leaned into songs like believe what you're saying, which is, you know, very, like you said, pretty, pretty, pretty country sounding.
- [27:42]
Buzz Knight
I think it's so cool seeing that expansion, but that's kind of the way your career has been. You're always sort of looking what to, to push and, and, and shake up. Over the three decades since, you know, Sugar's catalog has gained in stature, what do you think it is about the music that has allowed it to endure and continue to resonate with new generations of listeners?
- [28:16]
Bob Mould
Well, there's a couple different ways to look at it. I mean, I think the early 90s, I think with, you know, especially with Nevermind or what the Pixies were doing or My Bloody Valentine was doing in the uk, that was a complete, you know, a sea change in popular music, at least with guitars, you know, I mean, late 80s, a lot of hair metal and then a lot of, you know, Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, Paul Abdul, Janet Jackson, you know, the, you know, that's sort of the solo superstar era. So, you know, the setting had changed by the time Copper Blue came out, so people were receptive to that style of music. I think another key thing is the songwriting was really strong and, and at the end of the day, it's the songs that count. You know, it's the sort of, that three chords and the truth kind of thing. And, And a good song can read. It can read properly in, in any setting. So Sugar delivered those songs the way that they were delivered. And I think yet another facet of the Endurance is I've been playing those songs somewhat regularly over the last 30 years and I'm keeping them alive and update them and keep. They're still in the mix. So I think it's a lot, A lot of different, A lot of different things. It, you know, I don't, I think other than me playing them regularly, the, the rest of it I couldn't, you know, and writing the good songs, I mean, I, you know, I think with grunge coming in, that was something nobody had any real control over. It just sort of happened. But the rest of it, the, the quality of the songs and the, you know, just keeping them alive, I think that's, you know, I think that's maybe, maybe what keeps. Kept the catalog elevated.
- [30:23]
Buzz Knight
House of dead memories first new Sugar music in over 30 years. Can you tell us what it felt like to walk back into the room with David and Malcolm to pick up where you guys left off?
- [30:36]
Bob Mould
Oh, my gosh. Well, we, you Know, we started talking about this in early 24. The three of us got together in October of 24 just to run through some of the old stuff and see if it would see if we still wanted to give it a shot. And we ran through the old stuff and we had a lot of fun and then we scattered. I started making plans and then I made plans for us to get together and record three songs in June of 25 in Oakland, California, which is. There's House of Dead Memories, there's Long Lived Love and there's a third song that did not get finished. I still got all the pieces, but I didn't finish it up. It was great to get back in the studio with David and Malcolm. It was just the three of us with my recording engineer. We just got out on the floor and started playing and you know, got the, got the takes that we needed and it was, was great. It was very different than the way that we made the 90s records which were made, you know, in you know, like maybe drums first or drums and bass first. And then I would stack stuff on top. This time it was just the three of us on the floor just playing top to bottom and you know, getting what, getting what we needed. And then you clean up a spot here and you clean up a spot there and it was, it was really, I think it was really exciting for us to just go at it on the floor as opposed to the way that we had made the other records. So it was cool. And House of Dead Memories that I had written that song in 2011 as I was writing the rest of the Silver Age album, which was meant to be sort of an updated Copper Blue companion piece kind of record to coincide in 2012 with the 20 year anniversary of Copper Blue.
- [32:41]
Buzz Knight
And you have some dates that we can look forward to show wise.
- [32:46]
Bob Mould
Yeah, we're starting up in New York in early May. We've got three shows at Webster hall and pretty much every minute of every day for the last few months has been been focused on Saturday May 2nd and hoping that all of this in theory works in practice. After that we go on to a couple shows in London. We've got a couple weeks in the uk, a couple weeks in the Continent and then we come back in August and we've got more some big shows in August and September. We've got a linear tour of the Eastern US in October of 26 and we wrapped that up, I believe on Saturday October 24th in Athens, Georgia. The Georgia Theater. Athens, Georgia is where we learned to be Sugar. It's where sugar was born. And yeah, that'll be a nice way to wrap all of it up to, you know, to, to wrap it up in Athens. And I guess once that show's done, we could all take, the three of us will take a look at each other and go, well, well, how did that go back to the Waffle House? Yeah, maybe we'll have Waffle House on the way out. Yeah, that's fantastic. Thank you for that idea. Maybe, maybe we'll go to Waffle House before soundcheck of the day of show or something.
- [34:19]
Buzz Knight
Exactly. Yeah. This has been so, this has been so awesome. Before I let you go, since we call this little podcast Taking a Walk, I'm going to ask you the impossible question and more than one answer is acceptable, Bob. So don't think less of me. If you could take a walk with someone, living or dead, who would you take a walk with? And maybe where would you take a walk with them?
- [34:44]
Bob Mould
Oh my gosh, there's so many people that come to mind on that. I think, you know, I think of, I think of a lot of my mentors or people, colleagues who were important to the beginning of my public work, like William Burroughs or John Giorno. I was texting last night with Jello Biafra, who's had some health stuff and is on the mend and doing great. You know, I just, you know, things, things like that, I guess, you know, one, one singular person. I'd be hard pressed, but you know, that, that kind of thing, you know, people who, people have been important in, in my life. Some still with us, some, some who have passed and. Yeah, that, that kind of thing.
- [35:39]
Podcast Advertiser 2
I gotcha.
- [35:40]
Bob Mould
Either that or, you know, something, something I do, you know, just taking a walk with my husband. That's, that's, that's perfect too.
- [35:47]
Buzz Knight
There you go. Excellent. It's been an honor to talk to you about mold. Congratulations on everything, Sugar House of Dead Memories. I'm so excited for you and I'm so grateful for all the music you continue to give us.
- [36:02]
Bob Mould
Buzz, thank you so much for having me on. Continued success with the podcast and thanks for listening, everybody.
- [36:11]
Buzz Knight
I'm Buzz Knight and thanks for listening to the Taking a Walk podcast. Now please check out our companion podcasts produced by Buzz Night Media Productions with your host, Lynn Hoffman. Music Save Me. Showcasing the healing power of music and comedy. Saved Me. Shining a light on how laughter is the best medicine. All shows are available on Apple Podcasts, Sports Spotify and are part of the I Heart Podcast network.
- [36:40]
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- [37:46]
Bob Mould
Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, HearSay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new
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- [38:02]
Bob Mould
It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [38:15]
Podcast Advertiser 1
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- [38:38]
Podcast Advertiser 2
pricing and availability vary based on where you purchase insurance and by state. Some exclusions apply. American Family Mutual Insurance Co. SI and its operating companies, 6000American Parkway, Madison, Wisconsin.