Takin' A Walk – Music History with Buzz Knight
Episode: Buzz Knight and Pat Metheny: Exploring the Journey of Jazz Music and Creative Growth in Music History
Date: December 13, 2025
Guest: Pat Metheny (20-time Grammy Award-winning jazz guitarist)
Episode Overview
This episode features a deep and insightful "walk" with Pat Metheny, one of jazz’s most influential guitarists and composers. Metheny candidly discusses his lifelong dedication to music, his formative influences, the development of his innovation and teaching skills, the creative challenges behind his landmark album Bright Size Life, past and present collaborations (including David Bowie and Joni Mitchell), the evolution of his signature instruments, and his philosophy of continuous creative and personal growth. The episode also explores his charitable work with the Metheny Music Foundation and the making of his latest record, Moondial.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
Pat Metheny’s Day-to-Day as a Creator
[04:10 – 09:15]
- Metheny describes his ongoing drive to understand music as a process that never stops.
- “It’s not like you wake up one day and you go, okay, I got it. In fact, it’s the opposite… The better you get and the more you know…the more you realize you don’t know anything and you’re just beginning.”
(Pat Metheny, 05:00)
- “It’s not like you wake up one day and you go, okay, I got it. In fact, it’s the opposite… The better you get and the more you know…the more you realize you don’t know anything and you’re just beginning.”
- Stresses the importance of balance between music and family life.
- “Balance is the key thing for me, not just in music, but in everything else… they kind of blur together after a while.”
(06:58)
- “Balance is the key thing for me, not just in music, but in everything else… they kind of blur together after a while.”
- Shares his disciplined practice routines on and off the road, emphasizing long, focused sessions before others are awake.
Early Musical Influences
[09:16 – 14:00]
- Credits his older brother introducing him to Miles Davis’ Four & More as a pivotal, “life-changing, light bulb moment” (09:29).
- Identifies Wes Montgomery as his “main hero” on guitar, but also praises Kenny Burrell and Jim Hall.
- Describes the influence of Kansas City’s jazz players on his development as a teenager; gives special mention to drummer Tommy Ruskin, musicians Gary Civils, Paul Smith, and organist Russ Long.
- “Almost everything about the way that I think about time and groove and rhythm… traces back to those moments being by [Tommy Ruskin’s] side, often in his living room.”
(11:42)
The Influence of Trumpet and “Breath” in Guitar Playing
[14:01 – 17:56]
- Metheny started as a trumpet player and credits that wind instrument experience with giving his guitar phrasing a sense of “breath”.
- “Even as I got into playing guitar, for some reason, I breathe as if I’m playing the trumpet... and I think that helps.”
(15:53)
- “Even as I got into playing guitar, for some reason, I breathe as if I’m playing the trumpet... and I think that helps.”
- Argues that “taking breaths” and using space is critical in music, likening musical phrasing to conversational pauses.
- “If somebody just talks all the time and never takes a break, you kind of tune out after a minute. And music is a representation of the way we talk.”
(17:15)
- “If somebody just talks all the time and never takes a break, you kind of tune out after a minute. And music is a representation of the way we talk.”
Metheny as a Teacher and Influential Educators
[17:57 – 25:08]
- Began teaching guitar to neighborhood kids just months after starting to play at age 12–13.
- Admits his teaching was always focused on sharing what he found interesting at the time.
- Praises high school band leader Keith House for encouraging his early composing:
- “He almost insisted that I develop that skill because I think he saw in me that that was something that could happen.”
(22:14)
- “He almost insisted that I develop that skill because I think he saw in me that that was something that could happen.”
- Reflects on Gary Burton and Steve Swallow’s mentorship during his early professional years.
The Legacy and Creation of Bright Size Life
[25:09 – 33:05]
- Metheny’s first major album, Bright Size Life (1975), recorded with Jaco Pastorius and Bob Moses, is now considered a classic—but Metheny initially felt he’d “completely blown it.”
- “My sense of that record for the first 10 or 12 years after it came out was that I had completely blown it. That band was so much better than what that record seemed to represent.”
(26:12)
- “My sense of that record for the first 10 or 12 years after it came out was that I had completely blown it. That band was so much better than what that record seemed to represent.”
- Shares stories about the session—including Jaco’s jetlag and wild energy—and details their unique musical bond.
Metheny’s Approach to Guitar Innovation and Custom Instruments
[33:06 – 37:50]
- Early on, used standard hollow body guitars, but gradually began experimenting with orchestration, alternative tunings, and ultimately custom-built instruments.
- Emphasizes that the “idea” always comes before the instrument:
- “If I imagine in my brain, I’m going to improvise a chorus on ‘My Funny Valentine’ right now, I’m doing that. And I could pick up a trumpet, and I would attempt to play that idea…It’s the idea that’s before any of that stuff.”
(35:56)
- “If I imagine in my brain, I’m going to improvise a chorus on ‘My Funny Valentine’ right now, I’m doing that. And I could pick up a trumpet, and I would attempt to play that idea…It’s the idea that’s before any of that stuff.”
- Uses the analogy of being thirsty in different countries—language comes after the need; in the same way, the musical idea comes before the choice of instrument.
Collaboration and the “X Factor”
[37:51 – 44:08]
- Metheny is selective: “I have said no to way more things than I’ve said yes to, including things that would shock people...”
- Explains the difference between playing in someone else’s “yard” vs. inviting them into his.
- Highly values players who can be “effective at a very simple level” as well as handle complex harmony:
- “…it’s much harder to play something that’s effective at a very simple level…than the guys who…can play their cool little arrangement of ‘I Hear a Rhapsody’ in 15/8 backwards.”
(43:24)
- “…it’s much harder to play something that’s effective at a very simple level…than the guys who…can play their cool little arrangement of ‘I Hear a Rhapsody’ in 15/8 backwards.”
The David Bowie Collaboration – “This Is Not America”
[44:09 – 48:32]
- Story of how Metheny ended up writing the theme for The Falcon and the Snowman—and working with Bowie:
- “I sat next to him and hung out with him and was extremely aware of being in the presence of a super evolved human being. He’s one of the most intelligent, just bright people I have ever had the good fortune to be around.”
(46:55)
- “I sat next to him and hung out with him and was extremely aware of being in the presence of a super evolved human being. He’s one of the most intelligent, just bright people I have ever had the good fortune to be around.”
- Bowie’s words and approach to the song left a lasting impression.
Recent Album: Moondial and Solo Guitar Exploration
[48:33 – 53:59]
- Metheny details the progression from One Quiet Night (baritone steel string) to Moondial (his first nylon string baritone record).
- Found inspiration in a new instrument configuration while touring, quickly recording Moondial in response.
- “Started playing it on the first night of that tour and kind of fell in love with it…so I took that baritone nylon string guitar off into a little room with a good mic and recorded that whole record…”
(51:29)
- “Started playing it on the first night of that tour and kind of fell in love with it…so I took that baritone nylon string guitar off into a little room with a good mic and recorded that whole record…”
- Hopes the record allows for both ambient listening and deep detail when played loud.
Metheny Music Foundation
[54:00 – 54:50]
- Founded by Pat’s brother Mike to help young musicians from Lee’s Summit, Missouri, study at summer camps.
- Metheny helps select recipients, calling it “cool to be a part of that.”
Dream Collaborations and Focus on Young Musicians
[54:51 – 58:05]
- Expresses a desire to revisit live recordings with Brad Mehldau and collaborate more with Kenny Garrett.
- Currently drawn to working with young, up-and-coming players such as drummer Joe Dyson and keyboardist Chris Fishman.
- “I feel like that’s a great thing to be able to share with people: this ongoing thing... so I do hire a lot of 20-something guys now.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On perpetual beginner’s mind in music:
“The better you get… the more you realize you don’t know anything and you’re just beginning.” (05:15) - On jazz legends:
“The Miles [Davis] quintet of the 60s was just the model of everything for me. And to this day, it’s like that may be, you know, one of the highest levels of human achievement that has occurred so far in our species.” (09:41) - On phrasing and breath:
“We need those pauses, we need those breaths, because it’s just like in conversation... Music is a representation of the way we talk and the way we communicate.” (16:30) - On his collaboration with David Bowie:
“He’s one of the most intelligent, just bright people I have ever had the good fortune to be around.” (46:57) - On expressing musical ideas:
“Ideas in music are like that [being thirsty]. They’re before any instrument.” (36:32)
Important Timestamps for Key Segments
- Pat Metheny’s daily creative approach: 04:10 – 09:15
- Formative influences and Kansas City jazz scene: 09:16 – 14:00
- Trumpet & the importance of breath in phrasing: 14:01 – 17:56
- Early teaching and influential educators: 17:57 – 25:08
- The making and legacy of Bright Size Life: 25:09 – 33:05
- Innovation in guitar technique and instrument design: 33:06 – 37:50
- Collaboration philosophy: 37:51 – 44:08
- Working with David Bowie: 44:09 – 48:32
- Recording Moondial and solo guitar approach: 48:33 – 53:59
- Metheny Music Foundation: 54:00 – 54:50
- Future collaborations & focus on young musicians: 54:51 – 58:05
Episode Summary
This episode provides a rare, personal look into Pat Metheny’s philosophies on artistry, dedication, and constant curiosity. Listeners will gain insight into his creative mindset, collaborative values, and his relentless quest for growth—whether it’s digging deeper into the mechanics of jazz, inventing new instruments, mentoring rising talent, or engaging with legends like David Bowie. Metheny’s stories and analogies—delivered in his humble, thoughtful tone—will resonate with musicians and music lovers alike, offering both inspiration and a wealth of behind-the-scenes history in jazz.