Jeffrey McDonald (1:46)

It's even got super speed since you

Buzz Knight (1:48)

could get the funds as soon as the same day you sign. Visit sofi.compower to learn more. That's s o f I.com P-O-W-E r loans originate by SoFi bank and a member. FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891 taking a walk a lot

Stephen McDonald (2:06)

of times stuff that I write, then after I'll just go, I can't sell this. I just can't. And then I that I know it's not either not the right time to do it or it's not right at all.

Narrator/Host (2:17)

Welcome to another episode of Taking a Walk, where we're joined today by Jeffrey and Stephen McDonald, the dynamic brother duo behind the influential rock band Red Cross. These punk rock pioneers are here to chat about their new documentary, Born the Red Cross Story, which is making waves in the music documentary scene from their early days as teenage punks opening for Black Flag to Becoming influential figures in the grunge and power pop movements, Red Cross has maintained a unique position in rock history for over four decades. Join us as we take a stroll with Jeffrey and Stephen McDonald, exploring the highs, lows and everything in between of their remarkable career, all captured in their new documentary, Born the Red Cross Story. Coming up now on Taking a Walk with Buzz Knight.

Buzz Knight (3:11)

Well, welcome you to matinee idols to the Taking a Walk podcast.

Stephen McDonald (3:16)

Thanks for being on, but thanks for having us.

Jeffrey McDonald (3:19)

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Buzz Knight (3:21)

So if you could, since it's called taking a walk, if you could take a walk with any celebrity or musician, dead or alive, who would it be?

Stephen McDonald (3:31)

Ooh, they're actually taking a walk and I'm trying to think of where I would want to walk first. It might be kind of fun to walk with Bach down Wilshire Boulevard.

Buzz Knight (3:45)

With who?

Stephen McDonald (3:47)

Walk with Bach.

Jeffrey McDonald (3:50)

Bach, the composer.

Stephen McDonald (3:52)

Yes, yes.

Jeffrey McDonald (3:53)

Okay. J.C. bach. There's a lot of them, I think.

Stephen McDonald (3:57)

Johan, Sebastian and Bach.

Jeffrey McDonald (3:59)

Okay. Yeah.

Stephen McDonald (4:00)

Walk down from Koreatown to Santa Monica would be fun. It would be really fun.

Jeffrey McDonald (4:06)

A walk with Bob.

Stephen McDonald (4:07)

Yeah. Imagine just how tripped out he would be by all the latest inventions of the 21st century. Uh huh.

Jeffrey McDonald (4:18)

That's what Buzz was searching for.

Stephen McDonald (4:22)

That topic. Fun.

Buzz Knight (4:23)

I thought you meant Sebastian Bach.

Jeffrey McDonald (4:25)

Yeah. Yeah. Are you sure you don't.

Stephen McDonald (4:26)

That might be fun too, because Sebastian Bach is a huge like deep cut Kiss fan. So there is a language that we do speak in common.

Jeffrey McDonald (4:36)

So you would like, maybe you'd like to take a walk with Johann Sebastian Bach and Sebastian Bach on Wilshire.

Stephen McDonald (4:44)

On Wilshire from Koreatown to Santa Monica.

Jeffrey McDonald (4:47)

Have you done that? Walk a mile. I know you're planning on doing that walk.

Stephen McDonald (4:51)

That's the next walk I'm actually planning on doing with you, actually.

Jeffrey McDonald (4:54)

Yeah, I'm down. And just for people that don't live in Los Angeles, that's like a five mile walk or something.

Stephen McDonald (5:01)

12 miles.

Jeffrey McDonald (5:02)

12 mile. So you do both ways or what would happen.

Stephen McDonald (5:06)

So you go from Vermont to, you know, all the way to the beach.

Jeffrey McDonald (5:12)

How are you getting to Vermont? Are you dropping your car at the.

Stephen McDonald (5:15)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeffrey McDonald (5:17)

Okay, well, so, yeah, that, that's probably a little bit more than you bargain for, Buzz, but Jeff wants to take a 12 mile walk. Are you okay with that?

Buzz Knight (5:31)

Totally, totally.

Jeffrey McDonald (5:34)

I could tell I'm going to be

Buzz Knight (5:35)

in tears through throughout this, which I love. I love the documentary, guys. Born Innocent is. Is so wonderful. Tell me how it came together, the whole project. Okay.

Jeffrey McDonald (5:50)

Well, we did. There was someone. I wish I could remember his name. But there was a director who started it, like, Eric.

Stephen McDonald (5:59)

Eric something.

Jeffrey McDonald (6:00)

Eric, yeah. But the cinematographer stayed the same. Steve Appelford. Steve Appelford is technically the person who worked on the film longest. And that was like, 10 years ago. And then about eight years ago, or a little bit more than that. And that kind of fizzled because the director realized this is a complicated story and it's got. I don't know if he. I think he just was like, this is too much for me to take on, or maybe something happened in his life, I'm not sure. But we stopped hearing from him. And then about eight years ago, Andrew Reichstag reached out to me through mutual friends, and he very earnestly asked me, and I was impressed because he was the showrunner at Friends for, like, eight years, the hit TV sitcom. And I was surprised that he was interested in our little underground rock band. But he, as it turned out, had a deep love of the world that we came from. And although you would think he's only aligned with mainstream things, he's actually very obsessive about a lot of underground culture.

Stephen McDonald (7:18)

He's very into hardcore punk, which I only recently discovered.

Jeffrey McDonald (7:24)

Right. Because Jeff's daughter's in a hardcore band.

Buzz Knight (7:27)

Well, only recently discovered. Come on.

Stephen McDonald (7:32)

Yes. I mean, we were, like, the later,

Jeffrey McDonald (7:35)

like, other phases of hardcore.

Stephen McDonald (7:37)

We were. We were adjacent to the birth of hardcore, but I ignored it for 45 years. 40 years.

Jeffrey McDonald (7:44)

He was trying to pretend it wasn't happening.

Stephen McDonald (7:47)

Yeah.

Buzz Knight (7:48)

And. But your parents were supportive and still are supportive to this day. How did that happen?

Jeffrey McDonald (7:57)

How did that happen? Well, we can't take credit for that. That's just naturally what they brought to the table, their support.

Stephen McDonald (8:05)

I think they found it interesting because we were. We were the only kids, the only teenagers who were even trying to play in a band, much less a rock band or a punk rock band. We were very unique in that sense.

Jeffrey McDonald (8:19)

Do you mean, like, amongst our family, or do you mean, like, on our.

Stephen McDonald (8:22)

No, I'm saying in our whole neighborhood, there were no children. In our neighborhood, there were no anything. So we were doing something interesting.

Jeffrey McDonald (8:31)

And Kevin Newman's band. There was. Kevin Newman had a band.

Stephen McDonald (8:34)

He'd have a band. Couldn't get it together to have a band.

Jeffrey McDonald (8:37)

Well, he had, like, a cover band. I remember hearing his band. No, no.

Stephen McDonald (8:42)

That was, like, this friend of mine, the only other person I knew when we were in junior high school, he had an electric guitar, and we put together, like, a fake band to play the talent show. And I said I would sing, I'd Never sang before, but he was gonna do Snakeskin Cowboy by Ted Nugent. And once I looked at the lyrics, they were so stupid, I just reneged. I said, I can't do that. Oh, that was seventh grade.

Jeffrey McDonald (9:09)

Yeah. At 12 or 13, Jeff took a pass. And it's funny. Cause at the time, I probably thought he chickened out, but now I think I believe him, that he really just thought the lyrics were too spooky.

Stephen McDonald (9:19)

Well, I just thought, I can't sell this. I can't sell this song at all. I. I really felt that I didn't. I didn't use that term then, but I. That's feeling. I. I got. Ever since now. Like, when there's something that comes. Comes across that. Like a lot of times stuff that I write, then after I. I'll just go, I can't sell this. I just can't. And then I. Then I know it's not either not the right time to do it, or it's not right at all.

Jeffrey McDonald (9:49)

What are the lyrics to Snakeskin Cowboy? I know there's. Who the hell you think you are? You read my mind.

Stephen McDonald (9:54)

Yeah, it's just a dumb song. It's just. It just. There's nothing offensive about it.

Jeffrey McDonald (9:59)

I'm gonna look him up right now. I'm in front of my computer. I'm gonna look up Snakeskin Cowboy lyrics.

Stephen McDonald (10:06)

Maybe he was like, I think it was about Ted Nugent making, you know, giving some shades of some dude who was peacocking around, you know, someone within their vicinity.

Jeffrey McDonald (10:16)

Okay, here we go. Ooh, snakeskin cowboys. Oh, it's cowboys. Who the hell you think you are? You're dancing around with your high heeled boots Don't. You don't think that should get you far Just hanging around with your fancy pants on? Ain't got nothing on me. Think you gotta ride here on the stage? Stick around, boys maybe I can set you free.

Stephen McDonald (10:40)

Okay, I know exactly what that song is probably about. That song was about Ted Nugent's bitterness for the explosion of popularity of Grand Funk Railroad.

Jeffrey McDonald (10:54)

Oh, so you think it's a Mark Farner?

Stephen McDonald (10:56)

Yeah, it's Mark Farner. You know, they kind of came from the same scene, and then Mark Farner exploded.

Jeffrey McDonald (11:02)

All right. Yeah, you high heels boots with your best pants on. That sounds like Mark Farner, but, you

Stephen McDonald (11:10)

know, I think I could probably relate to that song now, though.

Jeffrey McDonald (11:13)

Yeah. Give me a break. Why are you so judgmental?

Stephen McDonald (11:17)

Because the song was very judgmental.

Jeffrey McDonald (11:20)

Now I'm going back to my old stance. You just chickened out.

Stephen McDonald (11:23)

No, way. I want to see you sing that song. The next Red Cross performance, Stephen will be performing his rendition of Snakeskit Cowboy.

Jeffrey McDonald (11:32)

And I'm going to sell the hell out of it. I can't wait. Oh, my God.

Buzz Knight (11:37)

Now, you guys have had an obsession with Grand Funk Railroad going back to the spirit of 76, is that correct?

Stephen McDonald (11:45)

Well, yeah, we liked Grand Funk Rev, but we kind of. We discovered their first two kind of acid rock albums. The spirit of the 76 grand spunk was more the 70s version. That was. I would have to hand that over to the writer, director, Lucas Reiner. He was the one who was obsessed with them. Excited. We didn't know their name. We didn't know Don Brewer or. What's the other guy?

Buzz Knight (12:07)

Mark Farner.

Stephen McDonald (12:08)

Mark. We knew Mark Farner. Don something.

Jeffrey McDonald (12:11)

Yeah, Don Brewer. That sounds right.

Stephen McDonald (12:14)

Lisa Drum. Yeah. Yeah. Like, there's an actual line where they name. They name check all three members of the original band.

Jeffrey McDonald (12:20)

We're like, Don Brewer, Mark Farner, which I have Mark Farner hair, something.

Stephen McDonald (12:26)

Satchel. Was it Satchel Something?

Buzz Knight (12:29)

I don't know.

Jeffrey McDonald (12:29)

But it's funny because I just did a Q and A in Phoenix for the movie. I went by myself. And that was one of the questions. Someone asked me if I could remember all the members of Grand Funk Railroad. And I choked. I said, mark Farner.

Stephen McDonald (12:46)

And then I joked, now you can add Dodd Brewer, but find out who the other guy is.

Jeffrey McDonald (12:50)

Yeah, I took a stab, and I think I said, someone from Mountain. I said, I don't know. Felix Pappalardi.

Stephen McDonald (12:56)

That's Mountain. That's the bass player Mountain. And the producer of Cream.

Buzz Knight (13:01)

Yeah, very good.

Stephen McDonald (13:03)

He was killed by his girl. Jealous girlfriend.

Jeffrey McDonald (13:05)

Esteemed bass player.

Stephen McDonald (13:07)

He was killed by his girlfriend.

Jeffrey McDonald (13:09)

Wow. I have a lot in common with him. I had a crazy girlfriend, too, you

Buzz Knight (13:14)

know, Mark Farner was on this podcast, and I want to get your take on something he said. He said the creation of Closer to Home was a moment of divine intervention. What do you think?

Stephen McDonald (13:28)

Well, Mark Farner would say that, because isn't he, like, a hardcore Jesus freak Now? I don't mean freak in the most positive way, too. Jesus freak. Yeah. Well, I imagine, you know, all creation, all musical creation is divine, you know, inspiration on some level. Yeah, we're inspired. We are inspired a lot by Divine. There's a lot of, like, female troubleisms in our music.

Jeffrey McDonald (13:58)

So when you say divine inspiration, you literally mean the actor Divine.

Stephen McDonald (14:02)

That's what Mark Farner must have met. The actor Divine. I see a connection between Divine, the Actor. The actress. Actor. And Mark Farner.

Jeffrey McDonald (14:12)

Okay. All right. I don't think that Mark was talking about female trouble. Inspiration, but that's fun. We should talk.

Stephen McDonald (14:21)

Oh, that's the first thing that came to mind, because I thought. Oh, he meant Divine Inspiration.

Jeffrey McDonald (14:26)

No, because then you brought up the. You said Jesus freak. But whatever. It's all good.

Buzz Knight (14:31)

You know, Divine. Three days before Divine mysteriously passed away, I interviewed Divine. You're going to make me go back and now find that air check of that interview? It might have been the last interview, honestly.

Stephen McDonald (14:47)

Wow.

Jeffrey McDonald (14:48)

Amazing. With Divine or Glenn or. I don't know how Divine.

Buzz Knight (14:54)

I think. Yeah.

Jeffrey McDonald (14:55)

Vine.

Buzz Knight (14:56)

Yeah.

Jeffrey McDonald (14:56)

And. And. And so it was mysterious. I didn't really. I didn't really. I don't really know much about Divine's passing, but they were fine. When you talked to Divine, everything was seen.

Buzz Knight (15:11)

Just. Just hunky dory.

Stephen McDonald (15:15)

Yeah. It's like sudden deaths are drowned.

Buzz Knight (15:17)

Yeah. This is so easy to go. And it's so beautiful to go down rabbit holes with you guys. Which, by the way, is the way the documentary is. It's one rabbit hole after another, isn't it?

Stephen McDonald (15:33)

Yeah, but I think he controlled it. Like, that was where you have to hand it to. To Andrew.

Buzz Knight (15:37)

Andrew.

Stephen McDonald (15:38)

He really helped to, you know, kind of tie it all together to make sense, because, yeah, there are. There are so many rabbit holes we can go down with Red Cross.

Jeffrey McDonald (15:48)

It's like an ADHD nightmare. And that's one of the things I've said several times now in interviews that, you know, Andrew really. He could clean my junk drawer any day because he's really good at making organized scents out of total chaos.

Buzz Knight (16:07)

You guys had a lot going on since the moment you started. You were 15 and 11, respectively. Is that. Is that right when you guys started out?

Jeffrey McDonald (16:19)

That's true.

Buzz Knight (16:21)

And did you have any idea whether this band would exist for a week, two weeks, when you started? I mean, what did you think was going to happen at 11?

Jeffrey McDonald (16:33)

I couldn't imagine 50. I had no idea what that was, so I didn't think about the band. I don't think I could even imagine what I would be like at 57, much less the band, you know, But

Stephen McDonald (16:45)

I think at that age, it's like the one time in your life you can actually live in the moment. Maybe because once you get older, you're just always tripping on the theater or freaking out about the past.

Jeffrey McDonald (16:55)

That's true, because there's not much past to trip out on. And then the future, you don't know anything about It. So you kind of just. And then time is.

Stephen McDonald (17:04)

You're really, really en. Vomit. Yeah.

Buzz Knight (17:07)

There's so many characters that are in the documentary and part of your life and part of the band. Just drummers alone. Was. Is it nine drummers that came through Red Cross?

Jeffrey McDonald (17:22)

I don't.

Stephen McDonald (17:23)

Well, we actually. We actually only count drummers who are on record.

Jeffrey McDonald (17:28)

That's not fair.

Stephen McDonald (17:29)

The other ones don't exist.

Jeffrey McDonald (17:31)

That's not fair. You do.

Stephen McDonald (17:33)

Well, think about it. Think about it.

Jeffrey McDonald (17:36)

Well, pretty much all of them are on records.

Stephen McDonald (17:38)

All of them.

Jeffrey McDonald (17:39)

Even Glenn. I'm sorry, but Glenn Holland's on records?

Stephen McDonald (17:43)

What is Glenn Holland on?

Jeffrey McDonald (17:44)

He's on. On the Desperate Teenage Love Doll soundtrack, the COVID of Purple Haze. And that's on that soundtrack. And I think there's a couple. Yeah, I think a couple of the songs from the Desperate Teenage Love Doll soundtrack. I think he's on I Want to Be a Cholo Chick. That song. Do you remember that song?

Stephen McDonald (18:11)

Okay.

Jeffrey McDonald (18:12)

Yeah.

Stephen McDonald (18:12)

Okay. Yeah, yeah. So. So, Gwenha. Yeah, but I mean.

Jeffrey McDonald (18:15)

So that's basically whatever you can to exclude him somehow. Yeah.

Stephen McDonald (18:20)

No, that's not true.

Jeffrey McDonald (18:21)

That one. I'm sorry. Sorry for you. Look at that. So molded.

Buzz Knight (18:30)

If there were to be a biopic done on you guys, who would play you?

Jeffrey McDonald (18:38)

Well, I would.

Stephen McDonald (18:39)

Yeah. Steve.

Jeffrey McDonald (18:41)

He was good enough for Dylan. He's good enough for me.

Stephen McDonald (18:45)

But he's too. He's too short to play it.

Jeffrey McDonald (18:47)

Who cares? I don't care. Well, Timothee Chalamet could play David Cassidy in our story. So when we go to make. So we have to get some tall. Some tall guys. And then when we go. And then in the part where they have the spirit of 76 section, we. Perfect. Because he's tiny like David Cassidy.

Stephen McDonald (19:07)

Tony Tenille can play me and David. The Captain will play you.

Jeffrey McDonald (19:15)

We both have the Captain's mustache now and the Captain's probably not with us anymore. Daryl Dragon.

Stephen McDonald (19:22)

No, he did. He passed a year or two ago.

Jeffrey McDonald (19:24)

Yeah, I think we could play. We could have played Daryl Dragon. Jeff and I could share the role of Daryl Dragon in the Tony Captain and Tenille movie.

Stephen McDonald (19:34)

Is Dennis Dragon still alive?

Jeffrey McDonald (19:36)

Is that the brother from the Surf Punks?

Stephen McDonald (19:38)

Yeah.

Jeffrey McDonald (19:39)

I don't know. I haven't kept. I haven't kept tabs on him.

Stephen McDonald (19:43)

There was a Surf punks were kind of influential on. We were gonna do Too Big for Her top on Teen Babes from Monsanto album, but we had to retossed it the last second.

Jeffrey McDonald (19:57)

You know, it's funny, I don't Remember that. That discussion. But. Okay, that's a surf punk's deep cut. Is. Is.

Buzz Knight (20:08)

Is Monsanto. Do you think you're. You're true. Classic of all. Is that the one?

Jeffrey McDonald (20:14)

Yeah, we didn't write any of the songs, so that's definitely some.

Stephen McDonald (20:18)

But, I mean, some people, it is their classic. But no, I mean, for us, it was. It was just a fun kind of exercise.

Jeffrey McDonald (20:27)

Well, I like what Jeff says in the documentary. He says that's when we came out as rock stars.

Stephen McDonald (20:34)

It is. It's when we just fully just blew it out there. And, you know, and it was. And it was an exercise. And we were. We were so snobby at the time. We were. We felt that the scene we were in needed a rock and roll education.

Jeffrey McDonald (20:47)

Some kind of.

Stephen McDonald (20:47)

So we were playing songs that were obscure to the kids that were our peers at the time. Now it's, you know, everyone knows Kiss and the Stooges and the Shangri Las, but the hardcore kids of 1982 had no idea who these were.

Jeffrey McDonald (21:03)

We'd say it's pedantic.

Stephen McDonald (21:05)

Pedantic.

Jeffrey McDonald (21:06)

Pedantic. I think that word applies. It's like, you know, we were schooling them and we were getting.

Stephen McDonald (21:11)

Yeah, we were. We were schooling them. But, you know, I mean, now I have a much more humble connection to that record than I did that.

Jeffrey McDonald (21:19)

But, you know, it is. It is one of the records that Andrew Reich cites quite a bit as his entrance point into Red Cross.

Buzz Knight (21:30)

Now, you guys, I feel like, have always gotten along except for one thing. Maybe the additional D and Red Cross. Is that still something that's come between you two knuckleheads?

Jeffrey McDonald (21:48)

Yeah, well, we did sing a chant on the new record where we were trying. I've been trying to, like, just cement it somehow, get it more into people's consciousness. Because every time I see our name spelled incorrectly, which there's several opportunities, several different ways to do it, I always feel like it's a little bit of a reminder of, like, you're not famous.

Stephen McDonald (22:13)

Well, and I also think about. I always think about the. And every time I see it, I am not angry for myself. I'm sad for Steve.

Jeffrey McDonald (22:23)

Oh, well, that's so thought.

Stephen McDonald (22:24)

Because I know it's good. It's torturing him. But you know what's weird about it is it's, you know, even today, like, the headline of an article will be spelled wrong, but it'll be spelled correctly throughout the body of the article, or vice versa. That happens all the time. So people just should start, you know,

Jeffrey McDonald (22:42)

the One I find the most interesting is Redd. C R O S S. That one

Stephen McDonald (22:46)

which is almost never happened.

Jeffrey McDonald (22:48)

It happens though. It does happen.

Buzz Knight (22:51)

Do you think, though it happens, people are just messing with you?

Jeffrey McDonald (22:55)

No, no, I think people, I, I. Well, I just think that, I mean, maybe, yeah, maybe some. But I know that I'm so. I know how I am about names and I never want to get them wrong. So I just assume that people are making a mistake and I'm always having to let them off the hook. Like, I mean, I don't really care. Of course. I'd be like, oh, no, of course. I mean, my mom calls me Jeff. I don't. It's all fine. But, but it is always a moment where, like, if, say it has something to do with, like promoting the band, I have to correct people and I hate having to correct people. That's a drag. And, you know, whatever, it's fine. But what the point I did want to make was that on our new album we have a song called Good Times Propaganda Band. And it's under, it's sort of buried in the mix. But we do do a chant at the end of the song where we say, yes, two Ds and a K. Hey. Yes, two Ds and K, hey. So we're, you know, we're, we're trying to train. If nothing else, that is our motivation for continuing to do this. To get people, to see how many people we can get to spell our name correctly before we die.

Stephen McDonald (24:11)

And it could have been worse. We could have easily spelled it with the Q.

Buzz Knight (24:16)

There you go.

Jeffrey McDonald (24:17)

And I know you would have said, you would have said it's cool. It's like Stacy Q.

Buzz Knight (24:23)

Was it influenced by Red Fox? Yes, yes, without a doubt.

Stephen McDonald (24:27)

Now, you know, now the word red, I see it a lot used in, in the hip hop world.

Jeffrey McDonald (24:36)

It's very.

Stephen McDonald (24:37)

Yeah, it's like Redd. It's really coming to its own in the past, you know, like 15 years.

Jeffrey McDonald (24:43)

Probably inspired by Red Fox also, because, I mean, like, is Red a common name? Is it a common proper name? And adding the second D, I guess, kind of takes it out of a nickname and into a proper name.

Buzz Knight (24:56)

Would you ever consider a punk version of the Sanford and Son theme?

Jeffrey McDonald (25:02)

I feel like we've.

Stephen McDonald (25:03)

The Sanford Son theme is pretty punk to begin with.

Jeffrey McDonald (25:07)

Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. What is that? It's got like, what is it? Juice Harp or.

Stephen McDonald (25:12)

Wow.

Buzz Knight (25:14)

I feel like it is.

Jeffrey McDonald (25:18)

Yeah.

Stephen McDonald (25:18)

And Clavinet. Yeah, yeah, that.

Jeffrey McDonald (25:21)

No, but there's that, that it's got that one drone instrument in the intro. I don't know. It's cool.

Stephen McDonald (25:30)

We'll take it apart later.

Jeffrey McDonald (25:31)

It's a. It's a classic. I don't know who. I don't know who the composer is on that.

Buzz Knight (25:35)

Yeah, we're gonna have to check on that.

Stephen McDonald (25:37)

You know, it sounds like Quincy Jones, but I don't think Quincy.

Jeffrey McDonald (25:41)

You know what? I think it is? I think it is.

Stephen McDonald (25:43)

Oh, really?

Jeffrey McDonald (25:43)

I think I recently just. Yeah, hang on.

Stephen McDonald (25:46)

Yeah, because I know he did. He did. Didn't do too many comedies.

Buzz Knight (25:50)

Oh, that's amazing. It was Quincy.

Jeffrey McDonald (25:54)

It is Quincy.

Buzz Knight (25:54)

And he just passed away recently. I wonder how he felt about that in his. In his last years about that part of his body of work.

Jeffrey McDonald (26:03)

Oh, I'm sure he's always proud of it. It was such a, like, I'm sure he was proud. I mean, it was. That was such a great piece of American television, you know, it's a really good mainstream moment, I think.

Buzz Knight (26:16)

Oh, totally.

Jeffrey McDonald (26:16)

At least from. At least from my household's perspective, my. My dad loved Red Fox. My dad's sort of personality, in many ways, I would say is informed by both the Red Fox character from Sanford and Son and also the. I'm forgetting the actor's name, but from the Jeffersons. George Jefferson.

Buzz Knight (26:41)

Yeah.

Jeffrey McDonald (26:42)

My dad walks like George Jefferson. Our dad walks like George Jefferson, I think.

Buzz Knight (26:47)

And then Redd Fox was known before that show for those infamous party records. Those nasty records.

Stephen McDonald (26:56)

X rated comedy, right? Yeah.

Jeffrey McDonald (26:59)

On.

Stephen McDonald (27:00)

On Laugh Record. Was it Laugh Record?

Buzz Knight (27:02)

I believe so.

Stephen McDonald (27:03)

Like they. Early. Early Richard Prior was on that same label. And yeah, early dirty comic Page, Launda Page, Wellanda page is part of the Rudy Ray Morrissey.

Jeffrey McDonald (27:19)

Well, that's also.

Stephen McDonald (27:19)

So I don't know, is it on Joke records, though, or whatever? Laugh Records. I see the logo in my head. I don't remember.

Buzz Knight (27:26)

I can too, actually. They were filthy as all get out though. That's for sure. They really were.

Narrator/Host (27:32)

We'll be right back with more of the Taking a Walk podcast. And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual.

Jeffrey McDonald (27:45)

Even if it means sitting front row

Stephen McDonald (27:47)

at a comedy show.

Jeffrey McDonald (27:48)

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date?

Stephen McDonald (27:52)

Oh, no, we help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together.

Narrator/Host (27:56)

We're married.

Stephen McDonald (27:57)

Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league. Anyways, get a'@libertymutual.com or with your local Agent. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

Narrator/Host (28:07)

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced Games. Some call it grotesque, others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all. Embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Stephen McDonald (28:24)

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on £10.

Jeffrey McDonald (28:27)

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Narrator/Host (28:31)

Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Jeffrey McDonald (28:37)

You can have opinions, you can have

Dr. Maya Shankar (28:40)

like a strong stance, and then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist and host of the podcast A Slight Change of Plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent and that is that our resilience works rests on our relationships.

Stephen McDonald (29:13)

I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change.

Jeffrey McDonald (29:17)

We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes.

Dr. Maya Shankar (29:23)

Listen to A Slight Change of Plans on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior and that can lead me to sabot the possibility of connection. This mental health awareness month, tune into the podcast Deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self discovery and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace and self mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized. But we actually need people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to Deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

Narrator/Host (30:36)

Welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast.

Buzz Knight (30:39)

But you guys, it's evident in, in the documentary that you guys are really historians of pop culture. You, you were fixated on the Brady Bunch, you were certainly fixated on the Partridge Family. You got to live out your dream and appear with David Cassidy. How did you become such historians of our time?

Stephen McDonald (31:07)

Well, I mean, we were brainwashed by our time. We came up in the 70s when kids came up from school and turned on the TV and did it turn it off until Bedtime, we would go out and play and ride skateboards and stuff like that. But yeah, we were raised by television. Our parents never, never viewed what we watched to make sure it was appropriate for us. I mean, not with television they didn't. I mean, when I had my own child, I was very careful to kind of bet everything she consumed. But in the 70s, it was kind of like that. The programmers for the networks, they were the ones raising the children, I guess.

Buzz Knight (31:51)

And there was only three networks then too. Imagine that, right? Think about that.

Stephen McDonald (31:56)

And the Brady Bunch was always. Was it always kind of an embarrassment, I have to say. You know, we were like. We were Parkinson's family people. And it's not even a. It's not even like Beatles or Stones. It's more like. It's more like Beatles or, or the Herman's Hermits, you know, like, I knew the Hermits.

Jeffrey McDonald (32:12)

Hermits.

Stephen McDonald (32:15)

Brady Bunch were more. Brady Bunch became more of an influence. When we got into LSD later, can

Buzz Knight (32:22)

you tell us the story how your lives intersected with David Bowie?

Jeffrey McDonald (32:30)

Well, I mean, I can't. I mean, that's more of like a discovery from the documentary because I think it was more like a hazy memory when we learned, when we were reminded that David Bowie had been sighted at the Hong Kong Cafe the same night that we played our first nightclub show. But I mean, David Bowie had a huge impact on. On the two of us growing up because we borrowed our uncle's copy of ziggy Stardust on eight track tape, Christmas of 1972. And we never gave it back to him. And that changed us in a lot of ways. But by the time 1979 rolled around and we intersected, I guess we shared oxygen in the same building that night. But neither of us were particularly plugged into David Bowie's music at that point, only because we had lost interest around the time of Young Americans. And when he went soul, we just were looking for a harder edged sound. And we felt a little bit like we were in that camp where we felt somewhat betrayed by his musical pivot. And. And it was really the punk scene for me. When I was surprised, I think I was probably surprised that everybody was freaking out about Bowie because I assumed everybody had tossed him away too because he wasn't making, you know, heavy guitar music anymore. But that's not the case. Like the punk rockers that we admired that we were around at that time were all like leftovers from the glitter scene. They were all kind of like weirdo art students. And people, like, were like Bowie Obsessives, like, there was no way they were ever going to. Like they were ever. He was ever going to lose those people. So I think, you know, it was sort of eye opening and I don't know about that night Specific. It doesn't have. The crew that I hung out with were such Bowie fanatics that I reconsidered Bowie after that time. And I realized, oh, I had missed Low and I had missed Heroes. And this was actually at the time that he was about to make Our lodger was about to come out. So that's when I got back. Back on. On his train was around the. Around the time that he came to our show.

Buzz Knight (34:53)

It's. It's. I love that part of the story, the way that unfolded. So as you watch the documentary, are there things that you sort of go, wow, I completely.

Jeffrey McDonald (35:04)

The Bowie thing, I forgot about completely. And it was like, thanks to people like our friend Ella Black and, you know, other people that were a little bit older than us that were there and they remembered it. She had journaled about it. And then it was like, oh, my God. Right? Wow, that's wild. But, like, that's what. That scene. That scene was so exciting to us that, you know, I mean, because we were rubbing elbows with our heroes that we held in the same esteem as the classic rock heroes that we had had five, 10 years earlier. Like, for me, Mick Jagger. I mean, Darby Crash was just as important as Mick Jagger or more so, like, when Darby Crash died, it was the same week as John Lennon's death or the day before or after day before. And I, at that particular time, I was more shaken by the death of Darby Crash than I was the death of John Lennon. And, you know, and these were people that we were like, you know, playing shows with. So it was very thrilling moment for us to be interacting with our heroes. And, you know, so, yeah, so the. So the fact that Bowie was there that night, we were probably also freaking out that Belinda Carlisle from the Go, that the, you know, the yet not really known Go Gos were there, you know, or whoever, you know, or Pat Bagg might have been there. And that would have been a really big deal to us.

Buzz Knight (36:35)

There's another character that I wanted to ask you about. Tracy Lee.

Stephen McDonald (36:40)

Tracy Lee, yes.

Buzz Knight (36:42)

Talk about the, The. The mystery of Tracy Lee.

Stephen McDonald (36:46)

Well, she was a. When we first started going to shows in Hollywood, the scene was older than us. We were like. We were the kids. And Tracy was another kid that we met. You know, she was the other person that was exactly my age. Like, we were kind of like 15 when we started going to shows and, you know, and so when we. We were trying to figure out what the new angle for Red Cross should be like. When we were around the time Born Innocent before Born Innocent, we were putting the band back together after Stephen's hiatus. When he returned, we just. It was like, put the band back together and. Oh, I got a ring idea. Trace the. Tracy Lee. She, you know, she played guitar with a group called Castration Squad, who were an all girl death rock group or one of the very first goth bands of all time. And we were old friends with her. I figured having her in the band would be like our Brian Jones. She would be the fashion center of our group, which she was on rhythm guitar. On rhythm guitar. But yeah, she was like us. And, you know, we were all. But she actually lived in Hollywood, Tracy. You know, we lived. We were separated from Hollywood by living in the suburbs, so we didn't get to go there until years later. She walked to the Whiskey a Go Go and saw the original Runaways play when she was like 13. Because she could. Because she could. Because she didn't live, because she grew up in Hollywood.

Jeffrey McDonald (38:16)

And it's funny, like, this kind of relates to what I was talking about. Being thrilled by local celebrities more so than, you know, a lot of other people, a bigger artist or whatever. Like, many years later, I was on tour with my hardcore band off, and a really close friend of mine, Josh Klinghoffer, had just joined the Red Hot Chili Peppers and they were playing a stadium down the road. This was in England. And so Josh invited me to the show and like, I knew Flea and Anthony way back, but just a little bit. Like, I wouldn't expect them to necessarily know my name. And. And they, they were excited that I was coming to the show because they wanted to talk about Tracy Marshack. That's her real last name. And they had gone to school with her at Fairfax High. They had grown up in Hollywood too. And this is like in 2010 or something. And they're like, so, you know Tracy Marshak. And I was like, yeah, everyone was

Stephen McDonald (39:24)

in awe of her. Everyone was in awe.

Jeffrey McDonald (39:26)

They were in awe of her. She was the cool punk rock girl at Fairfax High. And they were maybe a year younger than her or the same age, but they were intimidated by her because she had. She just always had this cool mystique about her. I mean, I'm sure Ed Fairfax at the time, she probably was a bit of a loner or not necessarily like a popular social or whatever. But for weirdos like Flea and Anthony, they would have been like, you know, ogling over her and obsessive about her and that she was unapproachable on some level. And they were. They still talked about her on that level, which is so funny because of, you know, who they are now and what they've lived.

Buzz Knight (40:10)

So tell us what it's like now, creating new music and. And what has changed in your guys, you know, style and, you know, collaboration practices.

Stephen McDonald (40:23)

Well, a style, something that just comes and goes. It's just something that's a natural part of it. I think it's kind of filtered through whatever it is. Like, for me, I'm speaking for myself, whatever I'm listening to is kind of affects whatever style. But the process is, since we've been doing this for so long, there's no set way. I mean, it's like we both write separately, we both finish songs separately, we both write parts separately, we both get together and write together. So there's just, you know, so many ways to do it. There isn't a set way. And I think that's probably why we can still come up with good stuff, because we're not stuck in a rut of how to create or write music.

Jeffrey McDonald (41:05)

I think that's true. I guess we've never really landed on a formula.

Stephen McDonald (41:08)

No.

Jeffrey McDonald (41:10)

And so it's still. It's always, you know, I mean, I don't know. I mean, this last time we wrote, it did feel different. It felt a little different, like we were getting some uncharted territory. And, you know, I mean, I know it's cool. It's. It's. It's cool to check back in and see, like, where we are as individuals and where we are as a. As a partnership. And. And this last time was really fruitful. And it seemed like maybe I'd also think the documentary, at least for me, the documentary had a lot of it, offered some inspiration as well.

Buzz Knight (41:46)

It's obvious watching you two in the documentary and now how much you enjoy being together with each other, that's not acting, is it?

Stephen McDonald (41:58)

No, no. We best friends, but we can also really get each other, get on each other's nerves in a deep level. But it's all. That's all, like, normal, you know, it's like we recover really quickly when there's disagreements. They may seem like you might have a disagreement, even, like a creative one that just seems like, oh, crap, you know, him, blah, blah, blah. But then you get over it very fast, you know, So I think that's maybe that's, you know, being brothers and fact that there's just the two of us. And we grew up and, you know, very humble. We grew up in the same bedroom, you know, very close our parents have been in.

Jeffrey McDonald (42:40)

Our parents, as much as they've done some terrible modeling of how to deal with stress and anxiety, I think they've also been really good models in the terms of their partners. They've been doing their own small business since the 80s, since maybe we started Red Cross before they started Omni.

Stephen McDonald (43:02)

Well, oh yeah, we did. They started in like 83 or something or I don't know.

Jeffrey McDonald (43:09)

Okay. So they started their own small business in the early 80s, but they've been partners, so to speak, for, you know, since before Jeff was born, but. And they still work together. They still work together. They're in their 80s and our dad is like 86 now maybe. And they still have their small welding company, precision welding, Omni welding. If you need precision welding done in the South Bay region of la, look them up on the way.

Stephen McDonald (43:39)

We're kind of hoping they'll retire soon, but they don't really want to.

Jeffrey McDonald (43:43)

No, they can't.

Stephen McDonald (43:44)

No.

Jeffrey McDonald (43:44)

They worked through Covid and they're in great shape and I think that's been a really positive thing for them. And because they worked their cover because that they often would do government contracts, so much to our chagrin. We were like, you know, I wanted to go do their shopping for them and they're like, leave me alone, we're working. But whatever. But point is that they've. I mean, I'd like to think that Jeff and I have evolved a little better. I mean, obviously we're brothers, is a different dynamic, but we're not quite as bickering as they are. They are like world class bickers and it's really dysfunctional.

Stephen McDonald (44:25)

But they recover quickly, though. That's the kind of thing I think we may have learned. The quick recovery.

Jeffrey McDonald (44:30)

When you talk about recover quickly. Yeah. Maybe that's a skill. We've learned to push it to our toes like our parents.

Stephen McDonald (44:38)

Yeah. Who knows? But everyone gets along for, I'd say 89% of the time these, these days. They do. We do.

Buzz Knight (44:51)

Jeffrey, what does Stephen do to make you better? And Steven, what does Jeffrey do to make you better?

Stephen McDonald (44:59)

Well, Stephen's very thorough, very, very analytical and, you know, and I think sometimes I'm very flighty and I just go with my first response, you know, in a creative situation. And sometimes it's good, sometimes it is good to take A beat. So, you know, Steven has made and has insisted that I take a beat before on certain things creatively. And that's, that's good, that's good. Otherwise I would just be, you know, flying off the handle doing everything, you know, on an impulsive level musically. But that's one thing I can think of because anyone who knows Steve well, you know, he's, he's the most analytical person. He's very, very intense that way. Which is, which is great. But that's, you know, that that's also where we hit like little, you know, butt heads sometimes.

Jeffrey McDonald (45:51)

Well, I mean, and I guess the flip side is that I've become more, at least with my writing. I like my first ideas better now than I used to. So maybe that's Jeff's influence on me.

Buzz Knight (46:04)

Well, guys, is there anything I've missed that you want to say or talk about?

Stephen McDonald (46:08)

Oh, we don't want. Well, the movie, the album, the movie and the Red Cross self titled double album. And, and our book, now youw're One of Us. They're all just, they all fit together. So if anyone sees, reads the book, sees the movie, buys the record or whatever and they need more. There is more.

Jeffrey McDonald (46:29)

Yeah. I mean the only thing I'd say you can go to Red Cross Film and that's R E D D K R o s s film.com to find out if there's a screening anywhere in your area. Because the film is screening now, it's you know, sort of a short, limited theatrical run and then it'll eventually go into, you know, another formats like DVDs. And then I think they're going to do figure out some kind of hosting situation to stream it, which I don't know that much about, but there is distribution for that. But I would say that if you know nothing about us and you're just kind of intrigued hearing our conversation, that the documentary is actually, from what I can tell, it seems to be engaging to people that know nothing about our music.

Stephen McDonald (47:17)

It's really fun to watch with, with the, with an audience because it's funny but it gets heavy, you know, and

Jeffrey McDonald (47:24)

it's musical and it's so it's like, yeah, you might not even be a big music fan, but if you're a human being, you might like the human elements of our story. And so I just. Because it's a good entrance point into our world. And then I would say if you watch the movie and then you're intrigued to know more, then I would direct you towards our newest album because We've been together for so long that our catalog is pretty disparate, so to speak. It's, it's random. Like there's, you know, there's records from when we were 13 and there's records from when we were 23 and 33, and so that we changed a lot in those times. But the new album is a double album, so it's got a, it's got a long track listing in it is a good cross section of everything that we're capable of. And, and we just happened to land in as time would have it, or fate or luck or whatever. We intersected at an inspired moment with the opportunity to make a record. So I think it's a really, it's a great companion for the, the movie and just learning about who we are. I think it's a good entrance. It's a good entrance. And then, and then when that's done, if you're not like completely nauseated by having too much Red Cross in your world, then check out the book, because the book is a deep dive into much more tweakier things than we got into today. But that's the order of events I suggest. That's the analytical Steve that Jeff just called me out on.

Buzz Knight (49:02)

The documentary Born Innocent is fabulous. It is a saunter through music history without a question. And Jeffrey and Stephen McDonald, I'm so glad that we took this little walk down memory lane. Thank you for being on.

Stephen McDonald (49:19)

Thanks for me having. Thanks for having us. It was fun.

Narrator/Host (49:22)

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts.