Buzz Knight Talks with Dan Mason about Music History, Leadership and The Future of Radio Broadcasting Today

Summary

Podcast Summary: Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight

Episode: Buzz Knight Talks with Dan Mason about Music History, Leadership and The Future of Radio Broadcasting Today
Release Date: January 30, 2026
Host: Buzz Knight (iHeartPodcasts)
Guest: Dan Mason, legendary radio executive

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Episode Overview

In this engaging conversation, Buzz Knight takes a walk down music and radio memory lane with his former boss and industry icon, Dan Mason. Together, they explore the art and business of radio across the past few decades, discussing Mason’s personal journey, philosophy of leadership, the impact of technology, the shifting landscape of radio ownership, and what the future holds for the medium. Their dialogue is rich with stories, leadership lessons, and deep affection for radio’s “personality era.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Iconic Walker: Dan Mason’s Person to Walk With

Time: 01:25–03:26

• Buzz’s opening tradition: “If you could take a walk with somebody, living or dead, who would you take a walk with?”
• Dan Mason’s answer: Gordon McLendon, the “godfather of personality radio.”
  • “I would like to talk to him about how he created and what his thought processes were about personality radio—not top 40—because you know, there’s a lot of people that can claim that.” (Dan Mason, 02:21)
  • Mason admires McLendon’s pioneering of radio contests, jingles and personality-driven programming.

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2. Nostalgia and Early Passion for Radio

Time: 03:26–07:52

• Lamenting the loss of personality in radio today:
  • “I’m disappointed, like many of us...personalities have been drained from the radio and another generation either hasn’t been taught or hasn’t been picked up on about what went into that.” (Dan Mason, 03:32)
• Youthful obsession: Mason’s boyhood experiences include critiquing radio station lineups, soaking up local personalities, and obsessing over Top 40 hits.
  • “Even as a kid… I listened to Wacky in Louisville… I would write letters and critique the radio station and I would tell [the Program Director] the afternoon guys should go to all nights…” (Dan Mason, 04:16)
  • “I’ve known ever since I was 12 years old what I wanted to do, somehow be in radio.” (Dan Mason, 05:04)

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3. First Forays into Music and Radio Careers

Time: 05:18–12:13

• First record: “I Get Around” by The Beach Boys.
• Early gatekeeping in hires: Mason looked for program directors who didn’t treat the format like their personal record collection.
  • “‘I look for the person who said, well, I really don’t have very many [albums]. You’re hired!’” (Dan Mason, 06:04)
• First jobs:
  • Aggressively wrote to 50 Kentucky stations at age 15 for work (08:17).
  • Memorable early gigs: WVLK (Lexington), which had an “almost surreal” professional environment.

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4. Lessons from Early Leadership and Climbing the Ladder

Time: 10:23–15:08

• On formative mentors: Bill Stakelin’s management style was “amongst the people, never in an ivory tower.”
• Career progression:
  • Transitioned from on-air jock to music director and then PD at Z93 in Atlanta.
  • “I didn’t think I was good enough [as a jock]. I’m a dismal failure at everything else but radio and to get ratings, I can get ratings. I knew what buttons to push with audiences.” (Dan Mason, 13:44)

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5. C-Suite Lessons and Business Reality

Time: 15:08–18:49

• Moving into executive roles:
  • Became president at Cook Inlet; learned how to present to bankers and manage investors.
  • “Let me give you a hint. There’s no market for bad news.” (Advice Mason received, 16:32)
• Hiring philosophy: Hired people “far better than me at certain areas” and gave them genuine autonomy.

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6. Industry Shifts and Ownership Structures

Time: 18:23–24:37

• Radio consolidation stories:
  • Experiences through sales, mergers—Cook Inlet to Group W, Westinghouse, then CBS and Infinity.
• Reflections on deregulation:
  • At the time, growth seemed like the only path, not “knowing what we didn’t know.”
  • “Not sure it’s true for radio listening within a community.” (Dan Mason, 20:41)
  • Observes the decline of brand focus and the downsizing of local sales teams in modern clustered radio.

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7. Return to Local & The Future of Radio Ownership

Time: 23:49–26:12

• Highlighting a return to localism:

  • Notes examples like Cox in Tulsa being sold to a local doctor—“He didn’t care about national business. He cared about local brands because that’s what built his business.” (Dan Mason, 22:55)
  • Predicts future owners will often be people with other core businesses, treating radio both as community service and business support.

• The audience’s migration: Personal radio listening habits have shifted from music to more talk and sports due to “too many commercials.”

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8. Two Major Problems Facing Modern Radio

Time: 26:12–27:03

• Quoting Rashad Tabakawala:
  • “Turds in the punch bowl”: 1. Loss of on-air talent/personality. 2. Excessive commercial loads.
  • “No personality and too many commercials. Simple.” (Dan Mason, 26:52)

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9. Stories from ‘Fearless’: Mason’s New Book

Time: 27:15–35:04

• Motivation and content: A candid account of transitions, promotions, leadership lessons, and “dark side” admissions.

  • “It talks about leadership vs non-leadership, talks a lot about crazy promotions… you can’t write a book without giving some dark side.” (Dan Mason, 27:22)
  • Memorable stories: raising coins to help pay NBA coach Doug Moe’s fine (“Dough for Moe”), over-the-top radiothons and even playful hoaxes.

• Example of then-unthinkable promotions:

  • “I remember a time when the song Short People by Randy Newman came out. We had a short people’s party at the Marriott Downtown D.C. …I don’t think you could get by with that now.” (Dan Mason, 28:56)

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10. Technology, Ratings, and Brand Health

Time: 31:22–34:12

• On electronic ratings (PPM):

  • “I think I made a huge mistake backing PPM when I did… It got so bad CBS ended up blocking [Randy Kabrich] from our email systems. But he was right.” (Dan Mason, 31:31)
  • Now favors the old diary system for accuracy—electronic meters never lived up to their promise.

• On ratings obsession:

  • Brands and sales matter more than minute-by-minute data.
  • “Your brand needs to sustain this and you still need to hit budget, right?” (Buzz Knight, 33:09)

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11. Fearless Career Moves: Play-by-Play Sports Broadcasting

Time: 36:01–41:29

• Post-radio adventures: Mason describes, with humor and humility, his late-career leap into college sports broadcasting.

  • “I realized I didn’t have a reel…I bet I lost 15 pounds just sweating over it.” (Dan Mason, 38:31)
  • Recalls investing his own money to prepare, practicing with a full crew before stepping on live TV.

• On trying scary new things:

  • “That’s part of the book. It’s fearless. You got to try. If it doesn’t work, that’s okay. You gave it a shot.” (Dan Mason, 41:33)

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12. Leadership and Reinvention: Parting Wisdom

Time: 42:41–45:07

• On career setbacks:

  • “Your career’s over when you say it’s over, not somebody else. ... You’re in the game still.” (Dan Mason, 42:33)
  • “If you can write, if you can announce or produce…you’re going to have a job as long as you want.” (Dan Mason paraphrasing John St. Augustine, 42:53)

• Leadership advice for those in radio today:

  • “Never get too high on your highs or too low on your lows... what goes up will come down. You don’t go up and up and up forever.” (Dan Mason, 44:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the spirit of radio promotions:
  • “Who fries an egg on a sidewalk anymore when it’s 100 degrees outside? ... We did that in our sleep.” (Dan Mason, 28:56)
• On hiring:
  • “I always tried to hire people who were far better than me at certain areas. ... I try to let people do their jobs.” (Dan Mason, 17:07)
• On adaptability:
  • “It’s fearless…People are afraid to try and you know, you got to try. ... You go out and play the game and you can call your career over when you call it over. Nobody else can call your career over for you.” (Dan Mason, 41:33)
• On leadership highs and lows:
  • “Never get too high on your highs or never get too low on your lows that are going to happen to you… just keep moving.” (Dan Mason, 44:11)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:25 – Gordon McLendon and early radio inspiration
• 03:26 – Critiquing radio as a teen, love for radio
• 06:42 – First concert experiences
• 08:17 – Mason’s earliest radio job applications
• 10:23 – Lessons from first full-time job
• 13:03 – Moving into leadership and PD at Z93
• 16:32 – “There’s no market for bad news” (investor lesson)
• 20:41 – Reflections on deregulation
• 24:37 – The next generation of radio ownership
• 26:12 – The “two turds in the punch bowl”—radio’s big obstacles
• 27:15 – Writing ‘Fearless’ and crazy promotions
• 31:31 – Regrets on PPM and ratings measurement inaccuracy
• 36:01 – Entering sports broadcasting
• 41:33 – The principle of fearless reinvention
• 44:11 – Final leadership advice: stay humble, ride the ups and downs

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Tone and Language

The conversation is candid, warm, and filled with humor and mutual respect. Mason’s responses are seasoned, direct but self-effacing, reflecting a deep-seated love for radio and a pragmatic take on an industry he helped shape—and one he still roots for, warts and all.

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Takeaways

This episode is packed with wisdom for radio aficionados, current broadcasters, and anyone interested in media leadership. Dan Mason’s journey teaches the value of adaptability, the enduring importance of local culture and personality, and the necessity of facing uncertainty “fearlessly”—with both humility and passion.

Transcript

[Dan Mason]

Taking a Walk.

[Buzz Knight]

Welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast. I'm Buzz Knight, and on today's episode, we're gonna take a step back into my radio history, and we're gonna share.

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

A conversation with my former boss, Dan Mason. The legendary broadcasting executive, he steered the nation's largest radio groups through some of the most transformative years in the industry's history. Dan's career in radio spans generations, from his early days learning the business from the ground up to leading a portfolio of icon iconic stations across America during a time when the entire medium was being redefined by consolidation, new technology, and changing listener habits. In this conversation, we talk about the art of running great radio stations, the personalities and programmers who made them unforgettable, the business decisions that shaped an era, and what Dan learned about leadership during times of massive industry change. Whether you lived through radio's golden age or you're discovering its history now, Darkness. Dan Mason's story is more than just broadcasting. It's about vision, resilience, and the power of connecting with audiences. So let's talk with Dan Mason next on Takin A Walk.

[Dan Mason]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human taking a walk.

[Buzz Knight]

Well, this is a treat. Welcome to Taking A Walk.

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

Dan Mason.

[Dan Mason]

Glad to be here, Buzz. Long time no see. But I've always been a fan.

[Buzz Knight]

The same here, Dan. So you are not going to be able to escape our first opening question, which is actually, you'll appreciate this. It's. It's turned out to be my benchmark for the Taking A Walk podcast, where I open it and I ask guests the question, if you could take a walk with somebody, living or dead, who would you take a walk with? And maybe where would you take that walk with them?

[Dan Mason]

You know, when I saw that on the sheet here, I looked at that and I kind of had to smile and I had to do some thinking. But at the end of the bought process, I think I would like to walk with Gordon McClendon. And some of the audience may not know who Gordon McLendon is. I mean, time has passed by, but in my estimation, he was like the godfather of personality radio. Not necessarily top 40 radio, because there's a lot of people that would claim that thing, but how to get personalities on the radio and little twists and turns with creating jingles, contests, promotion traffic vehicles, you name it. That's. And I don't care where I walk. I'll go anywhere as far as that goes. But I would like to talk to him about how he created and what his thought processes were about personality radio not top 40 because you know, there's a lot of people that can claim that. But I'm really be interested in his philosophy on what he thought about contests because nobody was doing that. I remember Wak, Wideman, McLendon, that station back in the 60s, they came out with color radio. I mean who would have ever thought that? And obviously it was in contrast to color TV and you wanted to make it more bright, more fun. But that's who I would go with. And like I don't care where I go. I walk, I walk on a bed of nails. I don't care.

[Buzz Knight]

Would you reflect on them, the current state of things?

[Dan Mason]

Yeah, yeah, I probably would because I'm, I'm disappointed like many of us in the business that you know, the personalities have been drained from the radio and another generation either hasn't been taught or hasn't been picked up on about what went into that. But you know, I, even as a kid, we can get into this a little bit later. But I listened to Wacky and Louisville, that was my station. And I remember at 14 years old, Johnny Randolph, who was a program director was taking me to a drugstore for orange juice because I was just into everything they did. And my image of them was disc jockeys smoking cigarettes and we're wearing, wearing the purple velvet jacket and you know, having 15 girls around. But you know, and it's funny that I stood in front of that window at WKLO and that was where I eventually ended up. But just, you know, begging what somebody come let me in. It's 32 degrees and snowing out here. Of course somebody let me in. But even with Randolph, what I would do, Buzz, I would write letters and critique the radio station and I would tell him the afternoon guys should go to all nights. The all night person needs to do morning drive and blah blah, blah, blah blah. And can you imagine if he ever told those poor guys that this dumb 14 year old kid was dictating the lineup of the radio station? But, oh, it was, but I only because I love the business. I've known ever Since I was 12 years old what I wanted to do, somehow be in radio. And I'm still go on the radio. Anybody let me on. So I do it all the time.

[Buzz Knight]

Well, we're going to talk about that and we got to talk about the, the book also Fearless the life and times of a media Maverick. So we're going to get into that obviously the context of it. But before your love of radio, you had to have a connection certainly with, with Music before that, I'm thinking, is that true?

[Dan Mason]

Well, yeah. I mean, I was a top 40 junkie. You know, I bought my first record was I Get around by the Beach Boys. But, yeah, I mean, I loved hits by the Hits. And I didn't want to hear anything past the top 40. You know, don't give me 45 or 50. I don't want to hear that. It's so. It's really funny. When I would interview program directors, I would say, let me ask you, what's your record collection like? And the people who would say, oh, I've got 2,000 albums. I'd say, next, I'm not going to hire you. No way. I look for the. I look for the person who said, well, I really don't have very many. You're hired. I love that sneaky question, but very.

[Buzz Knight]

Indicative of someone because I'm sure you ran across program directors who would program a radio station like it was their record collection that they had to play.

[Dan Mason]

Right?

[Buzz Knight]

That was always a dead spot.

[Dan Mason]

Right? Yeah. Deep tracks and deeper and deeper and deeper tracks equals no ratings equals those. Yes, that's right.

[Buzz Knight]

How about the first concert you ever went to?

[Dan Mason]

Oh, boy. First concert I was supposed to go to the Beatles concert at Crosley Field in Cincinnati, but it got rained out. We couldn't. Which I Trip. I won on Wacky or wkolo, one of the two. But I think I went to maybe, maybe one of the Toys for Tox concert that WKOLO had early in the 70s, maybe, or yeah, maybe late 60s, early 70s, something like that, where they, like, you know, the admission price, which I stole that concept for both Washington and Atlanta when I was there. But, you know, you for the price of a toy that let you in. So that was. And it's backed with artists, five, six, seven artists on the. On the agenda, you know.

[Buzz Knight]

So was that the first bit of your not only love for radio but also love for giving back to communities in terms of charities and doing that work? I mean, is that. Was that a first taste of it for you?

[Dan Mason]

No, I didn't. That would be overthinking it for me at my age, back then. No, I. I was there to have fun and listen to music and have fun with everybody else. I would. Unfortunately, I really wasn't geared to that till a little bit later on in my life.

[Buzz Knight]

But it's still stuck in your head, obviously.

[Dan Mason]

Oh, yeah. Toys for Tots. Free concert.

[Buzz Knight]

Yeah.

[Dan Mason]

I did promotion at Z93 in Atlanta and also did it at WPGC. The exact promotion. Yeah, Ripped it off from Johnny Randolph and those guys.

[Buzz Knight]

So let's, let's trace from the beginning as being 14. So what, what was the, the first official job where you were collecting a radio paycheck?

[Dan Mason]

Well, I should insert that. At 15, I got a hold of a, I got a hold of a book that had all the radio stations in Kentucky. And I probably sent 50 letters at 15 years old, handwritten letters saying, I can help your radio station, whatever 15 year old kid would say. And I got an answer from all those 50. One person answering it was a lady at a station in Manchester, Kentucky. Manchester, Kentucky was about 100 miles from Loyola. I had no driver's license, I had no way to get there. But I was just so excited that the person answered me. It was like, wow, I can do this. So, you know, little by little, the first job I probably had was maybe I think of WXVW in Jeffersonville, Indiana or WEKY in Richmond, Kentucky. They all kind of run together. But the first really cool job I had was WVLK in Lexington. And that was a heck of a media market radio station, fabulous station.

[Buzz Knight]

What made it so special?

[Dan Mason]

They had, first of all, they had a receptionist on Saturday. Can you believe that? Wow. I knew I was in high cotton.

[Buzz Knight]

At that, by the way, in an era now which, you know, there's no receptionists most of the time.

[Dan Mason]

No, no, no, no. They had crafted condition reports, they had newsmobiles, they. When we did the elections, Bill Stakelin was a general manager at that time. And Bill would take all of us disc jockeys out to the Red lion and eat pizza after the election night was open. I mean, who does that now? I mean, I, maybe they do, but I don't know about it. I wish I did know about it, but he'd take all the guys out for pizza and Coke or beer or whatever. You know, we were drinking and it was, it was just. And everybody contributed and we all went to the, we all did our remotes from the county fair. County fair. And it was just a fabulous radio station. And they made, they made a lot of money in their day. It was sold Accumulus later for a lot of money too. So they, they made it.

[Buzz Knight]

What did you learn from like Bill Staklin while you were working for him?

[Dan Mason]

Well, for sake, one would probably be try to go to bed earlier than what Bill did. But having said that, though, he was, he loved to have fun. He loved it. He's a carnival guy, man. He is a carnival guy. And the staff always loved him, but he was. He was amongst the people. He. Bill was never in a ivory tower. He was like. He was walking a walk all the time. And. And I really admired him, you know, so. Yeah, good man. Yeah.

[Buzz Knight]

So then what was next after. After that in terms of job?

[Dan Mason]

Well, I probably sent out about 50 tapes all over the country looking for a job after I got out of school and I went out of college in Eastern Kentucky. And Kirl in St. Charles, Missouri hired me, which was part of the St. Louis metro. And, you know, it was okay. I mean, they gave me an opportunity. So what. I can't say anything bad. So then about six weeks later, Chris Bailey, he's passed now, but he was quitting on KBQ in Kansas City. And Steve Rivers and I were the original staff at that station, top 40 station in Kansas City. There's, you know, the callers are still there, I think, for country, but went from there back to Louisville because I got homesick and wanted to be back in time for University of Kentucky football games. And I ended up back at WK alone. Stayed there for about 9 months and went to Z93 in Atlanta. And then I think things took off from there.

[Buzz Knight]

And you went to Z93 in what role?

[Dan Mason]

Just as the night jock, six to nine at night? Yep. Then eventually I became music director and then I became program.

[Buzz Knight]

So that your first PD job was Z93?

[Dan Mason]

Yeah.

[Buzz Knight]

And how fascinating that over. Over time, then that would be one of the many stations that you would have oversight over when you ran the Cook Inlet properties.

[Dan Mason]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it. It gave me a. Actually, it gave me an inside track because I knew so much about the market and knew so much about the radio station that I could formulate my own ideas and. And kind of guide it to where I wanted it to go. But we had some really good pre. PDS there. There's a guy, Chris o', Kelly, who was there. I don't know if you remember Chris. And John Young was there. John Young's been in. It was famous in Nashville. He moved to Atlanta and he had a great career at C93. So we had. In. Bob Case came in later on after that. Bob came from Seattle. So we had some really good program directors there.

[Buzz Knight]

And when you first went to Z93 was Cook Inlet the owners?

[Dan Mason]

Well, no, First Media was First Media. It was First Media. They were. Our sister stations were ZLX in Boston, Cuban, Seattle, US 99, Chicago, WPGC, Washington. And we had a station in Provo, Utah, and KFNK in Houston, Texas. So, you know, they built a really good, solid company.

[Buzz Knight]

But you no doubt were focused ultimately on being a program director from the 14 year old that was sending suggestions to, to that point. So you, you were focused that you were not just going to work on the air?

[Dan Mason]

No, I really, I didn't think I was good enough. I didn't. And this is the only business I can do. I'm, I'm a dismal failure at everything else I do but radio and to get ratings, I can get ratings. And I knew what buttons to push with audiences to get ratings. And I did realize early on when I got, by the time I got to wpgc, there are a lot of good disc jockeys around. And I went there as program director. I got off the air. And then probably, maybe not, maybe a year after that, KTSA in San Antonio, which was a KTFM also, we were looking for a programming oriented general manager. And I had just, at First Media, I had just kind of tapped or cooked in. Yeah, it was First Me. I tapped and I resigned and I went to KTSA and I was only 27. So now it's a whole different ball game. I was starting all over from the very bottom of the pile. You know, when you, when you start, they don't care if you were a hot shot at PGC in Washington. You tell some business manager at KTSA about that and they'll say, I don't care. They didn't care, right? No, don't care.

[Buzz Knight]

But you knew to add the skill set to understand, you know, what went into sales and with the whole picture of being, you know, the person coveting the FCC license and doing what was right for the community. I mean, you knew for your next move you needed to be more well rounded.

[Dan Mason]

Basically, I would always get into a job and not physically advertise it, but I would mentally think about what my next job is going to be to try to prepare myself for that. And I think after ktsa, I went back to First Media at KFMK as general manager. Great. We had a great radio station back then. And then Cook Inlet took over and I became the president. Cook Inlet. And now I'm getting into, in front of bankers and doing bank meetings. So, you know, I, I remember specifically one time the Whitney, the Whitney family was one of our partners at Cook and the Whitney family from New York and a gentleman there who ran the investment for the Whitney family. We had a bank meeting and it was in Dallas, I think, and I was doing this presentation and I said, yeah, I mean yeah, we had a great year this year, but, you know, first quarter is not going to really be good. You know, I was trying to be honest and forthright, and the gentleman pulled me inside. He goes, dan, listen, let me give you a hint. There's no market for bad news. Yeah. So I said, yes, sir, I got it. So, you know, you learn those things along the way about how to present things and do things. And fortunately for me, I was such a young age, you know, that I had plenty of time where I wasn't in my 50s, I was in my 30s, so it worked out okay.

[Buzz Knight]

But that's a pointed lesson that he gave to you with those words, huh?

[Dan Mason]

Well, yeah. He only said 10 words. Look, I'm still repeating them all these years later. I know how powerful. Yeah, yeah.

[Buzz Knight]

So your time at Cook Inlet certainly allowed you further to understand the investment side that was going on and understanding certainly the full picture of how to hire the right people. Because one of the things, present company excluded, you knew how to hire the best people and. And the right people.

[Dan Mason]

I always tried to hire people who were far better than me at certain areas. You know, nobody can be great at everything. But I wanted the best dish jockeys that money could buy. I wanted the best music directors that I could get my hands on, and I would always still be involved. But I try to let people do their jobs. I think if you did a background check on me with former people that work for me, they would say that, yeah, he will. He'll give you the rope to whatever you need to do.

[Buzz Knight]

I. I could hold my hand up.

[Dan Mason]

And say that, yeah. I don't think I ever micromanaged you or any other program director. But, you know, sometimes if it doesn't work out and the ratings aren't there, they're gone. I was never afraid to do that. We ask. We used to, when Chris Olivero and I at cbs, we used to do a state of the station call with the general manager and a program director, and the station was lagging in ratings. What's your plan? If that plan didn't work, what's your next plan? I kind of learned that from Mel Karmas, and I think Mel would always say, you better have a plan, and we would come up with a plan, and then it wouldn't work. He goes, okay, now what's the plan? But you didn't just not have a plan. Everybody had to have a plan to success. So I learned that. I'll give Mel credit for that one.

[Buzz Knight]

Well, we'll talk. I have a Mel Story. I remember, but so Cook Inlet ultimately sold to Infinity Broadcasting. And was that something as that took shape? That was a long process for that to happen. I remember there was like a hold up period because of Howard Stern. I remember that stations had to get, you know, the FCC had a bless it and all of that.

[Dan Mason]

Well, that didn't come to a way later on. I mean, Infinity CBS merger. But the Cookout began selling off radio stations. And I knew that and I had a contract with Cook and look, but I went to him, I said, you know what, you guys, I mean, I can see what's going on and that's fine. I mean, you know, take your money and go. We've been in this investment five years now. It's worked out well and it's okay. So I had to, I had to pay an exit fee to them. Not a lot, but a donation type thing to the Native American Council or something. But then I got a call from a headhunter at Westinghouse to go to Group W and I had a couple of really good meetings there and I left Cook Inlet to go to Group W as president.

[Buzz Knight]

And then it would come, come around where Infinity and Group W would end up forming together and.

[Dan Mason]

Not yet, not yet. What happened first was Westinghouse merged with CBS and I took Nancy Woodman's place. Nancy was president of CBS Radio, lovely lady that. And she was getting ready to retire. But she really helped me a lot, guided me and showed me where the bodies were buried and who was going to make it and who wasn't going to make it. Very helpful. I'm always, she's in the book about, say that in the book. But then after that we then came along Infinity with CBS and that merged. That was the merger that, you know, the FCC argued back and forth that they wanted their million seven in fines from Infinity before they would bless it. So and that's where that came.

[Buzz Knight]

When you look at the time, the way the whole landscape of radio was shifting with deregulation and just the way, you know, companies were becoming larger. Did, did any of that in your mind, were you fearful of any of that at that point?

[Dan Mason]

Not at the time. Because I didn't know what I didn't know. I mean, it was always presented that you got to grow, you got to get big, you got to get bigger and bigger and bigger. Not sure if that's really, that might be true for business acquisitions, but I'm not sure it's true for radio listening within a community.

[Buzz Knight]

But yet the powerful group of stations that you would ultimately be in charge of. Were dominant in every marketplace, pretty much. There were. There were. There were not many clunker stations and they owned a large share of the revenue and they were fixtures in their community. Do you sometimes reflect on that and that part of your career and sort of think now where things are and how, you know, stations in a lot of markets, not those stations, but stations in a lot of markets don't mean what they used to mean.

[Dan Mason]

Well, yeah, I think a lot of. I think as an industry, we've probably given up on brands. You know, we put so much emphasis on brands. And now you got. I won't say the company, but I talked to a person the other day that had. In a major, major market, they had 17 salespeople. That's it. They were doing eight radio stations. They had. Oh, you could. They had everything. So how can. How can 17 people cover all that? How. All that inventory. I don't think you can. And I think if I were starting all over again, I would probably be. And national sales aren't really a factor anymore. They're not like they used to be. You know, at one point at CBS, maybe we had 25% of our revenue was national sales. And that's dwindled down and has dwindled down to not very big. I did see a sale that went through in Tulsa. I was really intrigued by this. I need to do more research on it. But Cox had been in Tulsa ever since I've been in radio. They all the way. They own that cluster there for as long as I can remember. And they sold it to a local doctor that I believe he was an eye doctor. But the eye doctor kind of grew up with the station at advertised on the station and was in love with the stations. He didn't care about national business. He cared about local brands because that's what built his business, the local brands. So he bought it. And I think they put in a long time Cox programmer who had really good business skills and the way they went. And I believe. I can't wait to dive in and see how they're doing. I mean, it's going to take me a little due diligence, but I think that for. You don't have to. You don't have to own Oklahoma City. You don't have to own Tulsa. Just own Tulsa. You know, just work on your own general market. There's money to be made there, but we'll see where the business goes. But I think it's trend. It. It trends away from national business and more towards local. I mean, Jeff Warshaw is doing that with Connoisseur. He's really hyper local now. And I think he's right.

[Buzz Knight]

And I think there's a new breed of owners that are just like you said with the Tulsa example. And the other example I think we can use is the owner of WABC as well, that you're going to see people who have other businesses who believe radio can support that business. Maybe it's a little bit of a toy for them because they're billionaires or they don't need it financially, but they're going to use it to support and grow their existing core business. I think you're going to see, you know, owners of sports teams maybe go down that road and, you know, others in business and communities. I think that's the next generation of a lot of ownership, in my opinion. I don't know what you think.

[Dan Mason]

I think that anybody who is passionate about radio stations within a city would do that, would. Would go there. Like you take John Casmantides at wabc. He was a New Yorker, he loves New York. And look what the. Look what a job they've done. It's just that station had a 0.6, I believe. I looked the other day, and they're like a 4. 1 or something. But I listen to them almost every morning. I bet I listen to them three times a week in morning show. They listen to Sid. But I heard John on there this morning. He saw his own radio station just having fun. Well, I don't know if he's having fun, but he was talking a lot and going over what was going on in the city and talking about the election and everything. And that. That's what radio does. That's what, that's what they do. That's what. That's really refreshing. I got to be honest. Like in my car now, Buzz, I don't even listen to music anymore. I listen to sports and talk and that's about it. I mean, I want to listen to music. I'll go five other different places and what I don't want to hear is 18 minutes of commercials. I mean, we, as an industry, we've shot ourselves like that. I remember when we put Michael o', Shea, put Cube on the air in Seattle. It was six minutes and you didn't go for six minutes. That's the way a lot of stations were back then. It was always like a maybe a 10 to 12 minute out of music time. And then we say, okay, 12 minutes plus three promos, plus blah, blah, blah. No you got 12 minutes to be out of music. You'd be in music 48 minutes. That's what you got to do if you want to run three promos and you're going to have to play nine units of commercials. 60s. So anyway, that's my theory.

[Buzz Knight]

I don't know if you know, you know Rashad Tabakawala. Do you know him? The. He used to work for Publicis, and he's kind of like a business guru strategist now. And he refers to the these as turds in the punch bowl. So I think there's two turds in the punch bowl that are going on here. One, you mentioned earlier the fact that talent has become not as important and not as vital for, for radio. And then the other turd in the punch bowl is the commercial load, which is, is really a frustrating part of it because no one can quite figure out really what to do about it. And I'm not sure they're going to.

[Dan Mason]

I think you hit it right on the head, or he hit it right on the head beside it. I mean, we could pontificate and debate all day long, but it's going to come down to those two issues. No personality and too many commercials. Simple.

[Podcast Announcer]

We'll be right back with more of the Taking a Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast.

[Buzz Knight]

So tell me, what motivated you to to write Fearless the Life and Times of a Media Maverick?

[Dan Mason]

Well, you could debate the media maverick part. That wasn't really my idea to put that word in there. But nevertheless, I think it talks about just shifting from transition to transition. How you go from an overnight disc jockey to a program director to a general manager to a CEO to what else did I do? A chairman of profit and nonprofit companies to play by play basketball on a national network when you never broadcast a game on TV in your life and just, you know, typical go into acting. I was in two episodes of House of Cards. But just all the garbage that I've been through that it's just a lot of funny stories and there are. You can't write a book without giving some dark side. And I have had some dark side in my life that I did put in the book that is not very pretty to look at. So if you're being honest, you have to do that. But it's basically, it talks a lot about leadership versus non leadership, talks a lot about crazy promotions that I've done over the years. Like one was back in San Antonio when Doug Moe got fined. I think he got fined $10,000 by the NBA for something crazy that he did. We raised dough for Mo. We collected all these pennies, got $10,000 worth pennies, tried to take him to the NBA and of course they ignored us. But stuff like that, I mean, I mean, who fries an egg on a sidewalk anymore when it's 100 degrees outside? Remember that? Yes. Did that in their sleep all the time.

[Buzz Knight]

Yeah.

[Dan Mason]

I remember a time when the song Short People by Randy Newman came out. We had a short people's party at the, at the Marriott Downtown D.C. you know, you couldn't. You. We had little pigs in a blanket. We had six ounce beers. And we had this, you know, the statue at Six Flags or wherever it says you can't get into this ride if you're shorter than this. And we had that. We, we took that, we got one of those cardboard cutouts from the amusement park and did that at the door. I mean, I don't think you could get by with that. Now that's theory. But. No, but you know, constantly we were on television, we radio, and that was our big dream. Every radio station's goal was to somehow get on the TV news. Yeah. And we were always in the news and whether it was Boston or Phoenix. And I remember one time at KLSX in Phoenix, which now is the number one radio station, we put that station on the air as Copa back in top 40 days. Steve Rivers, a program director, but through a couple. I think Reed Reeker was the program director. Maybe I hope I'm saying this right, Reed, but April Fool's Day, they did an Indian uprising and all the Indians were coming out of the mountains in Scottsdale and took over the radio station. And they did such a great production job that it sounded real. And the Scottsdale police emptied their entire stations of every piece of arsenal they could find to come down there and surround the station, which we got in trouble for. It's a hoax, you know, so. Yeah, yeah. Wow. You know, who does that these days?

[Buzz Knight]

But that the spirit of those times exactly is what, you know, it was, it was fearless. And people, of course, I'm sure, checked nudge, nudge, wink, wink with the lawyers in the, in the, in the company.

[Dan Mason]

To, to be sure. I know we answered the fcc. We said we had no idea. We had no idea because if we knew it going in, we would be in a lot more trouble than we were. Right. We honestly didn't know and we didn't know.

[Buzz Knight]

But the key also back to getting on TV was you needed to get the call letters on too, because they could always do. Oh, a local radio station did this. Doug Mose. But you needed to get the call letters on.

[Dan Mason]

Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.

[Buzz Knight]

What was your take when electronic measurement came in to the business from, you know, the paper diary?

[Dan Mason]

I told, I've said this in the book that I think I made a huge mistake backing PPM when I did. And Randy Kabric, God bless him, he would always be on my case about this because I was a proponent and Randy was on the other side of this and it got so bad CBS ended up blocking him from our email systems. But he was, but he was right. And Roy Shapiro told me, the late Roy Shapiro who was the KYW years and years and he was running research for us at the time. He said, Dan, take that money and put it back into the diary systems and get yourself more diaries out there. You're going to have a better measurement system. But no, I, and I was so naive to think that a little meter that you would put on your belt was going to pick up every piece of audio flawlessly that it came in contact with. And obviously Voltaire came along and proved that wasn't the case. But, and now look, I think last I read Nielsen was going to an electronic E diary, email diary. They could have, could have done that in 2006 rather than what we've been through with portable people meters. But I don't even know do they even measure anymore? Can a six year, a six year old is going to walk around with a meter or how about a 70 year old going to walk around with a meter or a 45 year old businessman is going to go to his, his job with a, with a meter on. I don't believe that. Yeah.

[Buzz Knight]

And I think the reality of the situation is look, sales is so tied to ratings obviously. But I believe you were someone who would say look, ratings go up, ratings go down. Back to what you were saying about brands. Your brand needs to sustain this and you still need to hit budget. Right?

[Dan Mason]

Yeah. And I think that the whole industry became obsessed with minute to minute tune out, you know, through the meter that, and there was some. And I did it just like everybody else. But I'm not sure that that was a really good long term strategy because we sacrifice maybe brand issues, we sacrifice telling DJs to shut up. And you know, if we ever, God forbid, if we told Pierre Robert to shut up, I hope we never did. But maybe we did, I don't know, I don't remember. But you know, it just doesn't flow right. With what brands are trying to do.

[Buzz Knight]

Did you enjoy going back through your career and writing the book?

[Dan Mason]

You know what? Yes. The parts that were hardest were the dark side parts. That was the hardest. But yeah, I did because I wanted to have some kind of written account out there. And I'm sure Jeff Shmulean did the same thing when he wrote that. I don't know if it'll sell 100 copies. It doesn't matter. It's just everything is out there on paper. That's what I wanted. So it will be about a couple of hundred pages and it's got some funny stories about Stern, Mel Moonves. All true. Different groups. I've had to work with the rock groups. It's all there, you know, just. You'll. It's. It'll be. You could read it in two nights. It's not going to be a War and Peace novel. It's going to be quick.

[Buzz Knight]

The Mel line that I referenced earlier, I remember he had asked for me to listen to a particular radio station and because it was suffering in the ratings and his line was, you haven't fixed the radio station yet. They were able to fix the Hubble telescope in a matter of days.

[Dan Mason]

There's a story out there. I think it's true. I wasn't at the company then with him. He had a budget meeting and he hired some guy that climbed Mount Everest. And the guy gets up on stage and of course all the sales managers there and GMs are there. The guy gets up on stage and talk about the. What he went through, the grime and the blood and guts of what it took to get up that mountain. And Mel comes back on and says, all I'm asking you to do is make your damn budget. That's pretty good. That's pretty funny. It cuts right to the. Right to the core. No doubt. Seems pretty easy, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

[Buzz Knight]

Now, there's another facet I know that you've been involved with. Are you still involved on the side of sports betting in terms of, you know, the business of that?

[Dan Mason]

I bought into Vin Vsin. I bought about 10% of the company and became chairman of the company in 2019 and we sold it to DraftKings in 2021. So after that I. The only other company I'd invested in on the sports betting side was a company called Jul. It's J U I C E R E E L. It's like a marketplace for people who want to buy and sell their bets is what it's turned into. You know, like you see On Sunday morning, you hear the people on the radio saying, 25, let me give you my best best. There's no accountability there. You don't know if they're winning or losing or anything. They just get on there and talk and tell you anything you want to hear. But with Juice Real, you can actually track the performance of people in the marketplace, and then you can decide if you want to pay them or not. But they're paid, you know, not a subscription. It's free. It's free app, so it's fun to check out and play with it. I don't know if you've been on sports, but if you. Do you really enjoy it?

[Buzz Knight]

I. I have, but then it. It went south, so I stopped.

[Dan Mason]

Don't feel bad, because the average best bettor, I mean, the best bettors, they only win at a 53% rate. Oh. I mean, it's not like guys are out there. And when women and men are out there making 80. 80% picks, not. That's not happening. So don't feel bad. If you're 51, you're ahead of the game. Yeah.

[Buzz Knight]

Now, there is another part of what your. Your life is about, which involves doing play by play that's obviously going back to your. Your first loves and talk about what that feels like and what you're doing there.

[Dan Mason]

It was. It was hard. That may have been one of the hardest things that I ever had to overcome because I would tease the guys, Sean McManus and his people about, you know, your guys on CBS Sports Network, they're not that good. And, you know, back then, when they first started, they really weren't that good. They got a lot better now. But Sean would listen to me. He goes, all right. And I was getting ready to retire, so I had plenty of time to do whatever. So Sean says, okay, but I got to have a tape. You got to give me a reel. I said, okay. And I realized I didn't have a reel. I had no reel. So I go to my alma mater, Eastern Kentucky, and beg for a place on pressure. O. I got that. Then I talked to my friend Ralph Hacker at University of Kentucky, who was a legend there, and play by play, and I got their engineers to let me borrow equipment for a night. Then I went to Kyle Macy, who played for the Phoenix Suns, who went to uk, and he was my color guy, and voila. I mean, we had a team, so I did that. And then I still didn't have the video part, so I had to go back to Eastern and get three or four Engineers to help me sync the video and the audio together. And I presented that to Sean and his guys as here's your reel. Which real wasn't a true reel. It was kind of a maybe a half reel. So Sean says, okay, all right, we'll, we'll give you guys, we'll give you a shot. So my first game is going to be January of 16. Yeah. And I was at East Carolina. They were playing USF or South Florida. And now it's coming up on November and the game's in early January. Most of my stuff always came early in January, early February because there was a football basketball override and all the really good guys Rob doing that. So they needed help. So anyway, I realized I tell my wife, you know what? I have never talked to a producer. I've never been inside of a TV truck. I've never talked to a director. I haven't done anything except get this real, this, this thing that I put together. And I buzz. I bet I lost 15 pounds just sweating over it. So I started making calls and thinking, I better, I better learn the ropes here. I'm gonna, I'm going to be laughed at monetarily. It didn't make any difference, but my bosses were. It was kind of not to joke, but it was talked about that Dan was going to do play by play. And they would say, well, God, what's that going to be like? You know? So anyway, I, I found a friend who knew of National Hockey League crew that could do it. So I had to pay $16,000 for the month of December of 15. And I had like a five person crew at 6 o' clock in the morning because we had to be out of there about eight. They worked with me and I had, I had a lady as a stand in and I had a producer, I had a director, I had camera guys, I had stat guys. So I was I. For the month of December. I prepped like hell and made it through the first season. I'm glad I got invited back for the second. But eventually I went on to do two years at Coppin State and then now I'm doing Shenandoah. I'm in my second season at Shenandoah, but it's a Division 3 school with a lot of really nice facility, nice setup and they're a lot nicer than the network people. Nicer to me.

[Buzz Knight]

Isn't it fun doing something that's a little scary?

[Dan Mason]

Yeah, I think that's part of the book. It's fearless, you know, is people are afraid to try and you know, you got to try. I don't care. You got to try. You can't just sit back. You got to give it a shot. If it doesn't work, then that's okay. You gave it a shot. You did your best. You know, you go out and play the game and you can call your career over when you call it over. Nobody else can call your career over for you. Let's say you get fired at tomorrow from radio station. That's not the end of your career. Career's over when you say it's over, not somebody else. So look what yourself, you're not working directly in radio. Maybe if you're doing all these other things now, so your career is not over. When was the last time you had a radio John? Day to day.

[Buzz Knight]

Oh, end of 2019.

[Dan Mason]

Okay, there you go. But when 2019 came and you decided or they decided or whoever decided that wasn't going to be anymore, you didn't call your career over. You said, hell no, it's not over. And look at you now. You're doing all these other things. Is it the same as what you were doing? Maybe not. But you're in the game still. You're in the game.

[Buzz Knight]

Well, that's really powerful advice for those who are being displaced often in the business. Because I worry about that generation of people who don't know what the next thing is and they're calling it.

[Dan Mason]

Let me add one other thing. I was talking to John St. Augustine. John's in Chicago. He worked at WGN. He worked for the Oprah Network. He told me that he was having lunch with a guy from the Tribune, and the guy told him that if you can write, if you can announce or produce and, you know, production skills like the equipment on how to use that stuff, you're going to have a job as long as you want. Because now audio books are here and all these other different avenues are here. But you need those three basic skills. And you look at the people who have been disposable place, they've got those three skills. I know they do. It's just a matter of applying them in new, new avenues.

[Buzz Knight]

Yeah, well said. Well, in closing, I remember fondly when I would go visit you at your office there outside of D.C. once in a while, we would literally go take a walk and grab a cup of coffee around the corner there. And those are always great places to explore ideas and thoughts and conversation. So if I was taking that walk with you, I would be asking you the final question, which would be what leadership advice would you give right now to those still in positions of leadership in the radio business.

[Dan Mason]

I think two things. One is never get too high on your highs or never get too low on your lows that are going to happen to you, and there'll be people in your highs that are going to come up. Say, buzz, man, you're the best, man. Nobody's better than you. Buzz. And you just got to mentally say, thanks, but don't believe them. Just keep moving. And then when it. When you get through the lows, tell me an NFL coach that hasn't been fired or let go. I mean, they're all. That's all over the place, and what do they do? Look at Andy Reid, the guy that got thrown out of Philadelphia. He's Kansas City. He's like a icon, you know, he's. He's a big dude, and it just evolves. I think the second thing you have to keep in mind, what goes up will come down. You don't go up and up and up and up forever. You go up, you go down, you go back up, you go back down. And it puts things in perspective, I believe.

[Buzz Knight]

Dan Mason, I'm so grateful for everything over the years and so grateful to have you on and certainly be connected with you on Taking a Walk. And I'm just. I'm so appreciative of. Of knowing you and having our time.

[Dan Mason]

I feel the same. Buzz. I've always enjoyed talking with you. You're a terrific programmer, and I love.

[Buzz Knight]

Program directors, and I'm lucky I didn't answer that question that I had 2000 records in my. In my record collection, because I didn't really.

[Dan Mason]

How many did you have?

[Buzz Knight]

About 400.

[Dan Mason]

Okay. How many did you actually play?

[Buzz Knight]

200.

[Dan Mason]

Yeah. There you go. That's your own playlist down.

[Buzz Knight]

Exactly. Play it at home.

[Dan Mason]

Yeah. Play that music at home. Yeah.

[Buzz Knight]

Thanks, Dan.

[Dan Mason]

Thank you, Buzz.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Dan Mason]

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[Buzz Knight]

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