← Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
Takin' a Walk with Buzz Knight and Tom Rush: Celebrating the Evolution of American Music and Iconic Songwriting Moments
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- [00:00]
A
This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human. 150 years ago, they were hunting us down to kill us, and now they're hunting down immigrants to deport them. This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:30]
B
Foreign.
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A
I am so happy you are at the Taking a Walk podcast now. You know, there are artists who make music and then there are artists shape music who leave such a deep imprint on the American songbook that you can trace their fingerprints across generations of legends. Today's guests is one of those rare people, and I've been waiting to talk to him for a long time. Tom Rush began his musical journey performing in Boston area clubs while attending Harvard, and what started on the stages of the folk revival became something that changed the course of American music. Rolling Stone credits him with ushering in the entire era of the Singer songwriter James Taylor told Rolling Stone that that Tom was not only one of his early heroes, but was one of his main influences. Rolling Stone credits him with ushering in the entire era of the Singer songwriter James Taylor told Rolling Stone that Tom Rush was not only one of his early heroes, but one of his main influences. Garth Brooks counts him among his top five influences of all time. Tom was championing artists before championing artists was even a thing, introducing the world to the work of Joni Mitchell, Jackson Browne and James Taylor through his own recordings long before their names were household words. His 1968 composition no Regrets has become an acknowledged standard, covered by the Walker Brothers, Emmylou Harris, Midjure, among many others. And it's definitely one of my personal favorites. And now, more than 60 years into one of the most distinguished careers in American music, Tom Rush is back with brand new music. His album Gardens Old Flowers new, released in 2024 on Appleseed Records, it's drawn rave reviews and has gotten lots of attention. Tom himself calls it his best album ever. Coming up next, I'm going to speak with Thom Rush on Taking a Walk. I've been waiting to talk to you, Tom Rush, for a long time and now I've got you. Thanks for being on Taking a Walk.
- [02:53]
B
Thanks for having me. It's fun.
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A
You've been a fixture in my life. You've been a fixture in New England music and global music. Your career. You started playing the Boston club scene there while you were at Harvard. When you look back at that, that young dude playing those early folk clubs, what do you think he'd make of where this amazing journey has taken you?
- [03:22]
B
I really. That's an interesting question. I just recently figured out that 2026 is my 68th annual farewell tour. Start the clock. When I first got paid to make music, which would been. Would have been street singing in Paris, summer of 59, my parents sent me to Europe before I went to college. And I came back from doing that and as you say, started, not immediately, but eventually started playing the coffee houses around Cambridge and Boston. And I was just doing it for the fun of. Was also a good way to meet girls, I won't lie to you. But I didn't really have idea of doing it for a long time. But then I graduated with an English lit degree and I noticed pretty quickly that people were not lining up to pay me to read books. And so I figured, well, I'll keep. I was getting paid a little bit to get on stage and make music. So I figured, well, I'll keep doing this until I figure out what I want to do when I grow up. And I'm basically still trying to figure out what I want to do when I grow up.
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A
Well, Rolling Stone credits you with ushering in the era of the singer songwriter. And I would concur with that statement.
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B
I was never indicted. Even better.
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A
When you hear a description like that, though, does it feel accurate for you, or does it feel like something that belongs to somebody else?
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B
Well, I think, you know, with the benefit of hindsight, they're basically talking about the Circle Game album, which was the first time Joni Mitchell had been presented her songs had been sung by anybody. Same with Jackson Brown, same with James Taylor. So it basically that album introduced those three brilliant singer songwriters to the world. I wasn't trying to introduce anybody. I'd been making records for Elektra, Prestige Records before that, and I've been doing pretty much traditional folk and blues and the Cambridge area when the Club 47 was going on. Everybody was a specialist except me. I was the generalist. I would do, you know, I'd do some Delta blues and some Chicago blues and Irish, Scottish ballads and just all over the map. And I'd kind of run out of traditional songs that I was interested in playing. I was like two years overdue for delivering an album to Elektra. And along come Joni Jackson and James, all within six months of each other. And so I said, okay, well, I like these songs a lot. I'll make an album using these songs. And Rolling Stone, I think it did kind of kick off the Idea that, hey, you don't have to do other people's songs. You can write your own songs. And so I think it probably did to some extent introduce the singer songwriter era, but it was an accident. I wasn't trying to introduce anything.
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A
So I got to see you on two occasions, one fairly recently, which was the Americana awards ceremony in Boston at the wonderful Bach Center Wang Theater. Beautiful event. You sounded fantastic. It was just a wonderful, wonderful night, a very special place to be. And the first time that I saw you is when you opened for the band at the Felt Forum in New York City.
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B
Yep, yep, yep.
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A
And so I want you to reflect first on that appearance with the band. What was that like playing at such a big venue? And what experience was it sharing that stage with the wonderful band? And then reflect on that night with so many old friends. Not too long ago in Boston, where I saw you.
- [07:33]
B
Well, opening for the band, of course, was a big deal, because they were a big deal. And I actually worked with him on other occasions through the years, but I think that was the first time we shared a stage. And it was great having that great big audience seemed to like me. I didn't argue. So that was kind of a treat. And playing the Folk and Roots hall of Fame farhoff in Boston, when they first reached out to me, I thought they were saying I was being indicted. I was being inducted just one letter different, but made a big difference. And that was great because I got some hang time with some people I've known for a long time, Judy Collins and Tom Paxton and others. And it was a really fun evening of some really good music. And then I sang, too.
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A
You sounded wonderful.
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B
Well, thank you.
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A
Yeah, it was a special camaraderie I felt, you know, being in the audience there. The venue was so special. It was seemingly like a reunion of old friends.
- [08:51]
B
It was it. And it was. It was that there were a good many people there that I hadn't met before, including Bobby Rush, who claims to be the oldest living blues singer. And I started calling him Uncle Bobby because my brother. My brother was there, whose name is Bob Rush. And we got. I got a picture of Uncle Bobby and the two of us actually back in the. At the hotel. There was a party at the hotel afterwards, a gathering, and I thought, geez, it'd be fun to. It'd be fun to have some music. So I got my accompanist, Brendan Cleary, who I first met actually playing. He was playing in the bar at the Hilton next to the Wang center. And I didn't Get a chance to stop and listen. But I was walking out two years ago and I thought, this kid's too good to be playing in bars. So anyway, I called him up last January and asked if he'd like to be my accompanist for a while. And he's just knocking it out of the park. It's so hard to get started these days. It's really hard. A lot of. I know several brilliant. I mean, with a capital B, musicians who are playing in bars. And it's a tough gig because people are doing like, would you pipe down? We're trying to have a conversation over here kind of thing. And once in a while, Brendan, I guess, would slip in one of his own songs. But mainly the job is to play other people's hits because people say, can you do that Paul Simon song? And, you know, Brendan has a. Has an iPad and can look it up and play it for you on the spot. But he also writes some absolutely stunning songs of his own. Anyway, I got Brendan at this party after the Farhoff gathering to, you know, get up and set up his sound system and play a few songs. And then pretty soon people were. People were joining him. Uncle Bobby joined him and played harmonica on a tune. And I went into. I bailed out around 3 in the morning because I'm not. I'm not 23 anymore.
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A
I love it. I was well asleep by that. In my dreams. Cobwebs coming out.
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B
It was a great evening. And the after party was great as well.
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A
And I loved at that event how it brings it around full circle with newer emerging artists who have hit the scene, such as Maggie Rose, who I think is fantastic, who closed out with that great set in celebration of Aretha Franklin. Which brings me to you. You've always been somebody who is championing artists. You know, the early recordings that you talked about with Joanie and Jackson and James Taylor, and then you continued that tradition, you know, with Club 47 concerts with Nancy Griffith and Sean Colvin and people like that starting out.
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B
Yeah, yeah. How.
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A
How do you keep your radar up these days for those new artists?
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B
Well, Brandon, as I said, I heard him playing at the bar at the hotel two years ago when I was going to a different Farhoff event. And I actually reached out to him. I've been doing this. This series on Patreon called Rockport Sundays, plural, because I started it out during COVID when I was actually living in Rockport, Massachusetts. And I've got an instrumental called Rockport Sunday. And somebody suggested, well, why don't you post them on Sundays and call it Rockport Sundays. I said, okay. And they're little 15, maybe 20 minute episodes where the guest and I chat and they do a song and I do a song and that's it. And they're posted on Sundays and they stay up for eight weeks and people love them. It's a subscription series, but it's cheap and it got me through Covid, paid the rent during COVID but I kept doing it because it's a lot of fun and there are just a lot of youngsters out there, as you doubtless know, who will knock your socks off. And so some of my guests have been my contemporaries Jonathan Edwards and Tom Paxton. But a lot of them have been these youngsters that I've never heard of, but they are good and it really gives me a buzz to be able to get them out in front of a bigger audience and maybe get them another step or two along the way.
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A
And did that help fuel your latest project, Gardens Old, Flowers New, that sort of inspiration from those sessions?
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B
No. Simple answer is no, but there's a yes to it as well. My accompanist for about 10 years has been this guy, Brendan, not Brendan Cleary, he's my new accompanist, Matt Nakowa. And I met Matt actually I was getting ready to do a show at Symphony hall, a Club 47 show. And those shows, folks I had, usually I had a well known artist coming and a couple of newcomers, kids you've never heard of, but you're going to love them. And I wanted my guests to learn some songs they could do with me. And a friend of mine lent me a studio in the basement of his house. And I'm in the basement making, recording these songs for my guests. And he said, do you want any piano on anything? I said, no. He said, I've got this kid here, he's really good. I said, no. He said, he's really, really good. I said, okay, I'm getting the studio for nothing. And he goes upstairs and he wakes up Matt Nikoa, who says, tom, who? No, I want to sleep. Get out of here. He finally drags him downstairs and Matt plays piano on one song and that sounded really good, so he plays piano on another. He ended up playing piano on all the songs. And at the end of the afternoon I said, would you like to do a show with me? And he said, well, I don't know, I'm pretty busy, but what club is it? I said, well, it's actually, it's Symphony Hall. And there was a Moment's silence. And he allowed us how he could probably clear his calendar. And that was the first show that we were on stage together. And then subsequently I asked him if he'd like to go on the road with me. And he is absolutely a monster talent. And I had to take on Brendan because Matt was actually in Spain for about six months writing music for a Broadway play. He's on his way up. Anyway, I'm hoping to actually get Matt and Brendan on stage together. And there's another really talented guy, Seth Glier, who bailed out for a while because he was having a baby, but he's now back on the road. So I'm thinking I've got some. Got some really talented people to choose from.
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A
You've called this your best album ever, which for you is a pretty remarkable statement considering your. Your body of work. What makes this one feel.
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B
Let me just circle back. I totally lost. Lost the thread there. Gardens Old Flowers New was produced by Matt Nicola. I did not know. He was also brilliant record producer on top of everything else. It's kind of discouraging really. He. He produced that record and did a brilliant, brilliant job. It's. There's not 10. It. 10 producers tend to want to add more and add more and add more, and this record is very, very restrained. There's. There's not a wrong note on it and it's. It's me and my guitar and just enough backup to make it. Make it better, but not too much. And I credit that to Matt Nicola.
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A
And that really, for you became a difference maker in how you view this project. Right.
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B
And also I wrote all the songs the previous album. I wrote all the songs except for two traditional songs because I didn't want to give up my folk singer credentials. But this one I wrote. I wrote them all. And it's gotten a very, very warm reception.
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A
No regrets, your 1968 brilliant piece of work. It's covered by the Walker Brothers, Emmylou Harris, Bijour, and so many others.
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B
U2?
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A
Yep. Not bad.
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B
You've heard of them, right?
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A
I have. When a song takes on a life that big, does it still feel like yours? What's your relationship with that song today?
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B
Well, the origin of that song is kind of squirrely. The song, folks, if you don't know it, it's about the end of a long relationship. The guy's saying, you've gone away. It's okay, you know, I'm having trouble adjusting to this new life. But I don't want you to come back because we just break up again. I wrote it when a girl, this is in the. In the early 60s, mid-60s, maybe, flew up from New York City and spent the weekend with me in Cambridge. And I'd never spent that much time with anybody before. And I took her back to Logan Airport on Monday morning to fly back to New York. And it felt strange walking away alone. I was all of a sudden alone. And I went back to my apartment and wrote the song from the perspective of the breakup of a long relationship, which actually then came true. We had a long relationship and broke up. She's actually on the COVID of the Circle Game albums, standing behind my shoulder. Jill Lumpkin. But anyway, I wrote it. I basically made it up. And so it's curious to me that that's the one that somehow moved so many. Moves so many people over the years
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A
and still moves us to this day. I mean, you. You must get such a wonderful feeling when you're playing it in concert these days and just seeing the smiles on people's faces and obviously where it takes them in their life. I mean, you know, it's certainly part of many of our soundtrack to our life.
- [19:38]
B
Well, that's. I'm honored. I'm honored by that. I think it. You know, the song moves me, too. You know, when I. When I'm doing it on stage, I stopped doing it for a long time, and I'm. Now I've got it back on stage again. Because I think you're right, people. That's a song that people want to hear.
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A
Everybody can reflect on either the first time they heard it or. Or what it means at a particular time in their life, you know, something they've gone through. It's just. It's. It's just so powerful, and it's just such a. An amazing piece of work.
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B
Thank you. I think it's also interesting how that song clicked with so, so many people. And I think I've done other songs that are. That are equally powerful to me, but they didn't get the splash. Back in that day, Emmylou Harris had a really pretty version of no Regrets. I think that's where Waylon Jennings got it. But when people, other, you know, notable artists start doing your song, then everybody wants to do it. And so it went on from, you know, Waylon Jennings to a whole bunch of other artists in the States. And then, as you say, the Walker Brothers in England had a huge hit with it. And off of that, there was a heavy metal version that was eight and a half minutes long. And that guy only got in two verses out of three. And there was a hip hop version that I did not recognize when somebody played it for me. And then U2 started doing it in shows. And I remember I saw an interview with Bono in print and magazine, and the interviewer said, so you covered no Regrets. And Bono's response was, yeah, that's Scott Walker. He's a genius. I said, excuse me, over here, here I am. And I Actually, I met Bono before a show went up in Phoenix, got to spend a little time with him, and he apologized for the misunderstanding. And then during the show, they did no Regrets, and he credited me after the song was over. But what he said was, Tum Rush T U M R I S H something like that, with, you know, the accent, the Irish accent, and nobody understood what he said, so. Oh, well, yeah.
- [22:13]
A
How it must make you feel when you see an artist that's emerging to such popularity these days, such as Noah Khan, who is, you know, selling out Fenway Park. And as a new generation of audiences that he's built. But true, at his core, a singer songwriter, that must make you feel quite proud as somebody who's still at it and still creating greatness.
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B
I'm still having fun. I don't see why I would quit if it gets. And I think I'm. I've come to the realization, I think my shows are actually better now. My realization is that the audience doesn't want perfection, they want connection. And I think I've gotten better at the connection part, which is good because I've never been anywhere near perfection. That's not ever been within reach for me. But the connection part, you know, partly telling stories between the songs, either introducing the song or telling a totally irrelevant story brings people in. I actually started doing that back in the club 47 days. I started using different tunings on my guitar, but I only had one guitar, so. So I had to change tunings before the next song, and people would start looking at their watches and shuffling their feet. So to keep them engaged, I would tell a story while I was doing the tuning. And it's kind of bizarre, but now I get requests for the stories. Tell the one about the guy from Arkansas, which I'm happy to do. In fact, I did an album, but it was half stories, called Trolling for Owls, was on my own little label, so nobody ever knew about it unless you came to one of my shows. But it was funny songs and stories, and in fact, I think I'm going to do another one of them because I've now got enough new funny songs. And stories to make an album that's exciting.
- [24:22]
A
I can't wait to hear it, you know, in the recent years, with the release of a complete unknown and obviously the Newport Folk Festival, part of Dylan's career that it's chronicled, among other things. As somebody who has played the Newport Folk Festival, can you tell us what experience that is for an artist?
- [24:50]
B
It's a lot of fun. It's a huge crowd, at least two thirds of whom are actually paying attention. And it's. I don't know. You got me thinking about Dylan going electric. That was a brilliant career move. It just outraged so many people, nobody could ignore it. It was. Everybody talked, was talking about it with one opinion or another, and it put him on the map big time. But yeah, most of the time playing Newport, which I've only done a few times, but it's a treat playing to that many people who are mostly paying attention.
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A
What's in your guys blood system here, Dylan's blood system, yours, the artist, your contemporaries, where you just love the road. The road is part of your life. Is it? You were born troubadours. Tell me the secret.
- [25:53]
B
I don't love the road. I will tell you my secret. I don't love the road. I love playing for people. The travel is the hard part. That's the work in my mind, that's what I get paid for, is to, you know, I get in the car and I drive for five hours to play a show and then drive another five hours to the next show. This is actually one of the great things about Brendan Cleary, my new accompanist. He loves to drive and I humor him. I take a lot of naps. Brendan does the driving, but yeah, the travel. There was one period. There was a period of about five years when I had 10 days off total, not in a row. I was either rehearsing or recording or traveling to promote shows or traveling to do shows. And it didn't seem odd to me at the time, but looking back at it, I would not want to do that again. No, nothing close. I'm now doing maybe 60 shows a year. And in the best of worlds, I'll go out and do. I'll do four or five in a row, come home for a couple of weeks, then do it again. That's in the best of worlds, which hardly ever happens, but.
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A
But I think you raise an important point that is it has to be out there, which is, it's. The road is rough and staying healthy and, you know, eating healthy, getting good sleep, it, you know, and then being able to perform and sound at your best, you know, it's. It's really.
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B
It.
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A
It's a lot of hard work.
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B
You're taking me back. There was a train tour across Canada called the Festival Express. Went from. It was supposed to go from coast to coast. I can't remember what year it was, but there were a bunch of riots at festivals in the States and some towns in Canada canceled out. So instead of coast to coast, it was from Toronto to Calgary. But on that train where Bonnie. Let me see, who was on there. Delaney and Bonnie. I'm gonna get this all screwed up.
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A
Is this the one that was chronicled and filmed? Janis Joplin's on it and Rick Danko and. So you were on that train?
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B
I was on that train. Okay. The story was, I'm sitting, I'm talking with Monty Bramlett of Delaney and Bonnie, and Janice comes running into the car and says, bonnie, Bonnie, Bonnie, you've got to come. I'm doing an interview for Time magazine, and I just realized that you and I are the same person. You've got to come do this interview with me. So Bonnie gets up and I trail along because I want to know how Janice and Bonnie are the same person. And Bonnie is talking about how being on the road, the talent is a gift from God, and you have to go on the road because that's what God wants you to do. And it's very difficult because you're away from your family for months on end. But God needs you to share the talent he gave you, so you have to do it. Janice, on the other hand, was talking about how great it is to be a rock star because you get laid a lot. Somehow, they're the same person. Yeah.
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A
Oh, my God. I have to watch that again. That is such a fantastic documentary or chronicle of that experience.
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B
Another thing, when you're watching it again, keep in mind that it was filmed with no audio, and the audio tapes were separate. So the people that put that film together had to look at hundreds of hours of video and then try to find audio that matched. And you will notice that they very seldom stick with any shot for more than about 10 seconds because the audio and the video start to separate. But, yeah, it was quite. Making the movie was quite a challenge because it didn't happen for a few years after the. After the tour.
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A
A lot of brain cells lost on that train.
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B
Oh, yeah, for sure. Fortunately, I didn't have too many to begin with, so.
- [30:16]
A
Well, Tom, in closing, we call this podcast Taking a Walk. We'd like to ask a little dream walk question that we call who would you take a walk with, Tom Rush, living or dead? Where would you take a walk and maybe what would you talk about? And you know, take us inside?
- [30:38]
B
Oh boy. I would probably want to take a walk with my parents, who I'm an adopted kid and they got me when I was two minutes old. It was a prearranged adoption and they raised me and adopted two other kids, too. But I would kind of like to take a long walk with them, probably in the woods in New Milford, Connecticut, which is where our summer home was, and tell them how much I appreciate everything they did for me.
- [31:13]
A
That's wonderful. Oh my God. Thank you for sharing that, Tom. And thank you for what you've you continue to give us the joy of your music and your storytelling and your wonderful aura, and I've just been so looking forward to having you on taking a walk. It's really, it's really been a true pleasure.
- [31:35]
B
Thanks for having me. It's been, it's been fun.
- [31:37]
A
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