Steve Albini (3:43)

So, Kelly, since this podcast is called Taking a Walk and the subject is Kurt Cobain, where have you had an opportunity to take a walk with Kurt Cobain? Would you like to take a walk with him?

Kelly Caitlyn (3:58)

So we live in a pretty, pretty rural area, and there's a really pretty lake by us, and we were actually there not too long ago for a Renaissance fair. My family and I, and I kind of like to do a lot of, you know, reflecting when I'm kind of in the middle of nowhere. I feel like it just. You let all the noise and all the static kind of kind of fade out. So I think that would be a nice place to take a walk with him. It's a very pretty, scenic lake. It's completely away from everything and everybody, and I think it's a nice, pensive location to just kind of think and talk and reflect.

Steve Albini (4:30)

So I'm not. I'm a little surprised at your answer. We'll get into the Aberdeen Bridge in a little bit. I thought you might have said the bridge, but it's okay. No problem. There's no right or wrong answer to that question. But, Kelly, what. What drove you to write Kurt Cobain? Forever in Bloom, available with the folks at Genius Book Publishing.

Kelly Caitlyn (4:55)

There's a couple reasons for it. I never set out to write a book. This wasn't one of these things where I always knew I wanted to be an author. I am a writer. I do content writing for different websites and I write for some different online publications. But that was kind of more something that happened after I started writing the book. I kind of was like, oh, hey, I like doing this. I enjoy writing as much as I do do. Maybe I'll, you know, write as a career. But basically one, I had a family member, Walter, who died by suicide in 2017, and he loved Nirvana. But that wasn't why I chose to write about Kurt Cobain. It was one day during the Pandemic. And I was out with my son, and I came home and our neighbor across the street, who's probably 20 years younger than me, was blasting Nirvana. And I said to him, I said, oh, do you guys still listen to this? He was like, yes, of course we do. So later that afternoon, I was baking cookies with my son and Nirvana was stuck in my head. So I asked Alexa to play Nirvana. And it must have tripped something in my Google algorithm or all of a sudden, Kurt Cobain is coming up in my newsfeed. And everything I was reading was very maudlin, very depressed. It just painted this. I felt almost like a tortured artist caricature. And thinking about Walter in that moment, I would never want somebody to remember him solely for his depression or solely for his last act on this earth. And to me, knowing that a lot of young people look up to Kurt Cobain and that a lot of people idolize him, I just felt that it was time to rewrite his narrative from a compassionate lens, from the lens of someone who's experienced losing a family member to suicide. And that was basically the impetus for this book. Kind of right then and there, I decided I was going to do it. And then the next two years were kind of a blur of writing.

Steve Albini (6:57)

It's wonderful that you took this on. We also produce another podcast, which is called Music Save Me, about the sort of the power of music and everything. So you're really fusing the two together with this project. When were you first impacted by Kurt and Nirvana's music?

Kelly Caitlyn (7:15)

Believe it or not, so I'm going to be 42 this year. I wasn't. It's not that I didn't like them. If I would have heard them on the radio station growing up, I just wouldn't have called myself a fan. And one of my best friends growing up was completely obsessed with the band. So obviously I had more than enough opportunities to become exposed. But it wasn't until after I started reading all these articles in Google about him and the band and kind of exploring more and learning about the benefit concerts that they played, it just made me realize this is this powerful band and this very powerful lead singer who I think this empathetic, altruistic nature tends to get overlooked. So, I mean, really, just over the past couple of years is when I've gotten turned onto them and people assume, oh, you wrote this 500 page book about him. You must be a die hard fan. And I'm like, well, now I think they're great, but going into it, what songs did they sing? Songs like Teen Spirit, Come as you are, I probably knew as much as the casual listener knew. So this definitely confused my family. When I decided to write the book, they were like, but do you know anything about Kurt Cobain? And I said, no, but it was just the way his suicide was romanticized in the media that I was like, no, I'm gonna write about him, though.

Steve Albini (8:34)

So you sought to talked to an interesting group of people, and the first person that you were able to capture before he passed away for the book was Steve Albini.

Kelly Caitlyn (8:49)

Yeah.

Steve Albini (8:49)

Can you talk about Steve, first of all, what his role was with Nirvana, for those that don't know, and tell me what the conversation was like with Steve.

Kelly Caitlyn (8:58)

Sure, absolutely. So Steve Albini did produce Nirvanas in Utero. He was lovely. So I actually spoke with him last on April 5, which was the. Neither one of us even realized it at the time, but that was the 30th anniversary of Kurt Cobain's passing. And what's funny was we had struggled to connect because obviously Steve Albini is going to be extremely busy. So we kind of kept making all these different appointments to me, and then something would happen, and we had to reschedule. So we finally wound up connecting on 10am on April 5th. And I remember that conversation very clearly because about 23 minutes in, we had an earthquake in New Jersey, which we don't really have. So I. I hear. I know Steve is talking and he's telling stories, but I'm kind of starting to have a panic attack at this point because, you know, my walls are rattling. I've never been in an earthquake. And I hear him laughing, and he's kind of waiting for me to laugh because he's telling a joke. And I go, steve, I am so sorry. I'm not trying to ignore you. I said, I think we're in the middle of an earthquake. And he's like, is everybody okay? I'm like, no, we're fine. He's like, do you want to go? Do you want to reschedule? And I said, no, no, no, everything's okay. Like, there was no damage in the house. Nothing actually fell off the walls. My son somehow slep. So Steve and I continued, and I'm so grateful that I did, because just over a month later, he passed away. So, you know, I think when I spoke to Steve, I probably asked him a lot of the same questions that people ask him about In Utero. I did come at it from a bit of a novice lens, not knowing anything about recording. So I Think I was able to maybe ask some good questions. But the one thing I'm really, really grateful for is that since my book focuses on Kurt's social activism, if you will, I was able to speak to Steve about that a little bit. Just kind of how, you know, Kurt basically being a pioneer and how the whole band was very comfortable in their skin kind of at a time where maybe that might be socially frowned on. So I did feel lucky that Steve and I got to talk about that. He was a very, very, very nice person. I. He was a wonderful man. And not having any industry connections coming into this, you know, kind of being a mom from the middle of nowhere, I found it a little challenging to get people to want to speak to me and do interviews, because, you know, the first thing is, is this going to be in Rolling Stone? And a lot of people kind of tend to be more concerned about things like that. Everybody in my book is fantastic. Steve was one of these people who reached out to him. There was no trying to convince him to do it. I sent him an email the next day. He wrote back, I'd be happy to be part of your project. I was anxious talking to him because I had read that he was the crankiest man in rock. So I wanted to be over prepared. I thought he was just lovely. There was never anything cranky. All of our email correspondence. He was just a very kind person who you could tell had time for others after he passed. And I wished I had known about this then because I would have asked him about it. I was speaking with Todd Traynor, who's the drummer for his band Shellac, and I said, I want to do something in Steve's honor. He didn't have to be part of this book, but he chose to be in it. And since I'm donating half my profits to charity, I said, I want to do something. And Steve's Steve's name. Do you think there's something that he would support? And he said that about 30 years ago, Steve and his wife started getting letters from the post office just addressed to Santa. People never thought anybody would read them. And they were basically letters from parents who were saying, you know, dear Santa, this Christmas, I don't want to have to choose which one of my children gets new shoes. Dear Santa, this Christmas, I want to be able to afford coats for all of my kids. And Steve and his wife selflessly took it upon themselves to start fulfilling these wishes. And 30 years later, they have this letters to Santa charity. I think this past year, they helped 16 different families, they basically make Christmas happen for them. All the older kids get laptops, if I'm correct. The younger kids get tablets. And every family gets $10,000, no strings attached. And Steve Albini was part of that. Champion that. What an incredible human being. I have nothing but praise for him.

Steve Albini (13:51)

Great story. Now that's one of the charities I know that you highlight for your proceeds from the book. We'll talk about the others, certainly, that we want to shine a light on. Another person that you spoke with is been a guest on the podcast and specifically even talking about Nirvana and the MTV Unplugged sessions. What was it like talking to the former manager of Nirvana, Danny Goldberg?

Kelly Caitlyn (14:19)

Danny Goldberg is also lovely. He was another one of the people who I reached out and the next day, yep, let's set up a time to talk. Obviously incredibly talented, incredibly smart. Almost where it's intimidating to talk to him. So well spoken, so kind. Just, you know, took the time to listen to me explain why I was doing this. Have I wanted to all how I wanted to honor Walter and just patiently listened to me while I asked him questions that I tried to find, questions that maybe weren't already asked a thousand times. Because since the book isn't about the band, it's about Kurt Cobain, the human being. I wanted to speak with him about different sides of Kurt. Things like why didn't he quit music? Because I know that's something that people kind of kick around on different online forums. And Danny had explained to me that he loved music. It's not that simple to just walk away from something, you know, when you love it. We talked a little bit about, you know, Kurt's drug use and his stomach issues and could this have been a product of, you know, maybe being uninsured in America, self medicating? Danny didn't feel that was the issue. He felt, you know, Kurt had these, you know, substance abuse issues before joining the band. So it was just a nice, insightful conversation, really, about Kurt's impact. You know, Danny was saying how he likes when he sees people walking around New York with the Nirvana T shirts on. And it's nice to see that the band is still making an impact. So it was a nice conversation. Definitely intimidating.

Steve Albini (16:03)

He's a legend in the business and he's a good man.

Kelly Caitlyn (16:06)

He is.

Steve Albini (16:06)

He really is.

Kelly Caitlyn (16:07)

He really is. Definitely just, like I said, didn't hesitate to speak to me about it to help me honor a loved one who passed by suicide. Really an incredible person.

Steve Albini (16:19)

When you think of mental illness and you think of the music business. And you reflect on Kurt's ultimate passing. How far do you think the music business has come on how it views mental health?

Kelly Caitlyn (16:35)

I think it's tough because I think as a society and the music business, I think we've come a long way. There seems to be a lot more understanding for people. I feel like in this day and age, if you have an artist who's struggling with mental health health issues, regardless of where they are, you know, on the celebrity status, I feel if somebody was to say, you know, I can't do this enough, I do like to think as a society we're more willing to say, okay, let's take a break, let's step back. You know, I know that Nirvana did cancel, you know, shows and whatnot when, if Kurt was having issues, but I like to think as a society we do better. I think one of the issues the music industry might face face is social media. So you can have, you know, mental health. If you're struggling with your mental health and you need to get access to resources, but everything is at your fingertips now. And if you make one misstep, you know, we saw this with Kurt. We saw how the media was constantly after him and insinuating things. I think today with social media, there's so much online bullying. And I can see that regardless of how, you know, accommodating the music industry might be, that's going to eat at somebody, you know, that's going to eat at their soul. In my opinion. You have these artists that have, you know, millions of followers across a variety of platforms and you just can't stop people from coming out and being online bullies. If they don't like your weight, they don't like your hair, they don't like how you dress, they don't like your last song. And I think unless these artists are able to completely shut themselves out from that and have maybe very dedicated PR teams who are going to, you know, manage their socials for them. But really with social media everywhere, how do you turn yourself off to that? So I think we're in a more accepting day and age where we might have, you know, people who understand needing a break for mental health, but also just this constant access to criticism on the Internet, which is almost kind of like a double edged sword for these artists, which I think is really a shame.

Steve Albini (18:41)

I love the story of how you took being a writer, merged it with some activism when it came to the Aberdeen Bridge. Tell everybody about the bridge, what it is for those that don't know and what you and others were able to do about the bridge?

Kelly Caitlyn (18:59)

Sure. So the Aberdeen bridge, Some people might hear it called the Yonge street bridge. Kurt's bridge, usually. So Kurt Cobain is synonymous with the bridge because the. I don't want to say rumor, but as the story goes, he wrote the song something in the way from nevermind about his time being unhoused beneath the bridge. And there's been a lot of speculation about that over the years. Did he. Didn't he sleep there? You know, you've got him on some accounts saying that he did. And then we know in other accounts, he kind of walks that back a little bit. You know, there's a lot of the speculation with the tide and how much foliage there was there, you know, in the. In the 80s, would he have been able to sleep there? And the big thing I focus on in my book is I don't think it matters if he did or didn't sleep there. I think the bridge, in terms of Kurt represents the fact that he was unhoused. So I think we really need to kind of look at the big picture with that. But people from all over the world come to that bridge. I was told a story by one of Kurt's friends. So there's a misconception that his ashes are scattered in the Wishka river there. He was actually. I mean, his ashes were scattered at a variety of different places, but one of them is McLean Creek, which I think is in Olympia. But people still associate him with that bridge. So there was a young woman from, I believe it was Spain who flew out to Aberdeen. Her brother had passed away in a car accident, and his final wishes were to be scattered in the Wishka river where Kurt Cobain was. So she flies out from Spain and she goes there and she meets with one of Kurt's friends, and he says to her, he says, you know, he's not actually scattered here. And she said to him, she said, well, this was my. My brother's final wish, so I'm going to scatter him here anyway. And you think to yourself, that's somebody who flew around the world for. For this final gesture for their family member. And that's the impact of Kurt Cobain. And that's how important that bridge is to people. So right now, the bridge, I don't even think they've made a decision yet. But the bridge was facing demolition, and it's not because of what it stands for. It's because it's not structurally sound. So they're trying to figure out what to do with It. Exactly. I think cars of a certain weight can still drive across it. So they have all these incredible engineers out in Aberdeen trying to figure out what to do. And one of the things on the table was build another bridge next to it and keep that one maybe as a walking path still. So I think they're kind of leaning towards that. But again, I'm not really sure. I haven't followed it too closely in a while. But about. I want to say about. I think it was last April, some historians from town reached out to me, and they said, would you help us in trying to preserve the bridge? And I said, yeah. I said, just, you know, tell me what to do. They thought maybe trying to get it made an historic landmark might help. I did try to get that done. I had spoken with the powers that be in Washington State. Basically, I was kind of told it was an exercise in futility and it probably wasn't going to happen. I really don't think it would need to happen. Anyway. I do think they'll find a way of preserving it. So we started a petition. I think we got about 3,000 signatures, maybe. And then Matthew Wells, formerly of the Daily World and Aberdeen, reached out. You know, did a nice little interview with me. It was neat, I got to say, see my name for the first time in print as a Kurt Cobain book author. So that was cool. But it was nice to know that what we were trying to do mattered, and it was catching on. I wound up connecting with the Grays Harbor Conservation District because they're the ones who are responsible for preserving and maintain Kurt's Memorial park, which is right next to the bridge. And we talked, and we kind of have this plan in place where if the bridge does come down, they want to reach out to the town to see if they can maybe get a piece of the abutment with the graffiti on it to maybe move to his park somehow to still have a little piece of it there. But I really do need to find out what's going on with the bridge, because I haven't asked in a while. But as far as I know, I don't think any advancements with anything have been made. But it felt nice to be able to do something to help, to remind people, like, hey, this bridge matters. And as long as the engineers can find a way to safely still keep it or preserve it, it. Let's try to be part of that. Let's try to keep this bridge that people literally fly from, you know, the far corners of the earth to visit. I think that's really special, and I think we need to keep that. I've never been to the bridge myself, though.

Steve Albini (23:43)

Gotta go. I haven't been either. We all gotta go.

Kelly Caitlyn (23:46)

I do. I want to go.

Steve Albini (23:46)

Yeah, you gotta go. So, in closing, can you give some props to the charities that are important to you that will get some money from the sales of the book?

Kelly Caitlyn (24:00)

Absolutely. So before I became a writer, I used to be a special ed teacher and I worked with disadvantaged children. So one organization that I'm sending money to is called Ginny's House, and they're a children's advocacy center, and basically they provide free support to children who are survivors of abuse. Another organization is in Cobain's hometown. It's called Camp Victory, and they also work with children. They provide free summer camp to children who are survivors of sexual assault. I'm also going to be giving some money to the Aberdeen Food bank to try to help them out. And then I'm looking for something that does something for veterans who died by suicide to assist their families afterwards. I think I'm going to be giving some of the funds to an organization called Taps, because after Walter, my family member, he was a veteran Marine, So after he died, they stepped in to help my family. So I would like to pay it forward with them. There's also Steve Albini's chapter. Another one I'm giving some funds to is called Tomorrow's Children's Fund, and they provide support to families who have children battling childhood cancer. And then there's another one out in the Aberdeen area that's a local wildlife refuge. So I'm just trying to spread it out. I know it's a book. It's not going to make a million dollars. So I'm trying to find other ways of helping. I hosting virtual online writing workshops for charity so I can use that money to send different organizations. And then we actually had to move the date, but on March 23rd, now, we're going to be having a book launch party at a record factory in New Jersey. They're going to sell tickets. We have this really neat cover band playing Nirvana, and we're giving 100% of the profits that day to Ginny's House, who will be there help out with volunteers.

Steve Albini (25:51)

So, Kelly, bravo for your work and your advocacy, but also bravo for the book Forever and Kurt Cobain, available from the folks at Genius Book Publishing and I'm sure wherever else you can get books. Amazon, of course, and congrats on it. And thanks for shining a different light on the, you know, amazing career of someone we lost way too young.

Kelly Caitlyn (26:18)

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Lynn Hoffman (26:21)

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow us so you never miss an episode. Takin A Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts.

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Kelly Caitlyn (28:41)

Please welcome aboard the Johnson family.

Lynn Hoffman (28:44)

The whole fam's here for the Disney cruise. So you know we came to play and listen. The adults are gonna have a ball. First we're chilling in the infinity pool, onto massages at Sense's spa, then gliding into Star Wars Hyperspace lounge for a toast. We're even gonna kick back with Mickey on Disney's private island. That's how we get down, because Disney Cruise Line is where we came to play.