← Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
Classic Music Saved Me with Samora Pinderhughes
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Podcast Host
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Samora Pinterhues
Can I look at music through conversation, through the music of just somebody talking regular, just how they would and what does that reveal about their relationships to these very difficult things that they've gone through as a result of societal oppression and the prison industrial complex and all these things.
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Lynne Hoffman
I'm Lynne Hoffman and welcome to the Music Saved Me podcast, the show where we dig deep into the impactful stories about the power of music. Please follow us and share with your friends if you don't mind. And thank you for that. On this episode, Emmy award winning composer, lyricist, vocalist, filmmaker, social political activist and scholar who, by the way, is working on his PhD. Just your typical underachiever. Samora Pinterhues discusses his new work and his views on the force of nature as we know as music. Samora, welcome to Music Saved Me. It's so nice to have you here.
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Samora Pinterhues
Thank you so much. It's an honor to be on the program.
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Lynne Hoffman
It's very fun. And interestingly enough, my sister or brother program is called Taking a Walk with Buzz Knight, which you are doing. While we're talking right now, I'd like to let the listeners know it's a beautiful day in October, so we couldn't keep him from just sitting in a studio. You had to go walk about.
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Samora Pinterhues
Yes, indeed. Yeah. You know, this is my mental health practice, so.
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Lynne Hoffman
And it's a good one. You have such a unique musical background, starting off as a jazz pianist studying at the renowned Juilliard. Can you tell us how and when you first became attached to music?
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Samora Pinterhues
Yeah, I've been playing my whole life. I, I actually started at age 2 and I was in preschool and I had somebody came this musician named Jacqueline Rogo. She became, she came to my preschool and was like going around all the people, all the kids, you know, playing some pieces. And I was just following her around like the whole school. And so after that day, she went to my parents and was like, your kid wouldn't leave me alone. So clearly he's into this music thing. And she was my first teacher. She really, you know, took me under her wing and kind of just brought me into the community of, of the music that she was a part of, which was Venezuelan traditional Music, that's what I started playing. And then I went to Cuban music, then to jazz, and then I was, I was kind of off and running by then. I never stopped. So it's been, you know, the longest relationship I've ever had in my life besides, you know, with my parents and, you know, just something that I, I don't even really have. I've never experienced life without it.
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Lynne Hoffman
Your project, the Healing Project, explores themes of incarceration and violence and, and policing. What was the inspiration that caused you to want to tackle all of these sort of difficult issues and subjects through music?
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Samora Pinterhues
I, I always, you know, kind of had a desire to use music and art to, you know, speak to the things that mattered to me and in the society and the artists that always inspired me the most were those kind of artists. And I also have always been interested in language, even though I started off with the drums and the piano and I wasn't a vocalist until much later, but I was always still very interested in language and the music of language and sound, which is a strange kind of, I guess, entry point into language because a lot of people don't think about sound when they think about speaking, which is, which is interesting to me, but we just never talk about it. So yeah, for me, I just always thought that, you know, kind of investigating all types of things through the music of language is, is almost like an entryway into the soul for people. And so obviously, you know, one way that I like to do that is through writing lyrics and making songs with, with lyrics in them. But the Healing Project for me was kind of an investigation into how can I look at music through conversation, through the music of just somebody talking regular, just how they would. And what does that reveal about their relationships to these very difficult things that they've gone through as a result of societal oppression and the prison industrial complex and all these things. And I was super inspired to do that project by one of my mentors, Emma Duger Smith, who's a playwright. But she thinks a lot about the music of language and has developed this whole, you know, method that's very famous at this point. That's around how she does interview based work. And she thinks a lot about music and that works. So when I started to kind of be her mentee, she would just talk to me all the time about that method. And it's just really inspired me so much. So I kind of just decided to try my own spin on that with her blessing. And you know, I always wanted to make something that was about the subject of Abolition. Because I have a lot of close friends growing up that have been through the prison system that have dealt with structural violence and whose lives have been very affected and kind of traumatized by the violent systems that are a part of the United States. And so I just really wanted to use the lens of music and language to try to reach people who maybe don't have, you know, family members or friends who have been affected in that way, to try to reach them and have them understand the depth and complexity of that experience. Because I think part of what that system does is it creates a lot of distance. You know, if you observe, you know, things like, for instance, a prison is never in the center of the city. It's always in the outskirts or upstate. And that's the reason for that is distance. You don't have to see what's really, you know, what people are really going through. And so it's much easier to kind of just like, put them, throw them away to the margins of society and not have to deal with it. And so my hope with this project is that through this universal music of language, that we can kind of capsize that distance.
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Lynne Hoffman
Well, so beautifully put. And I'm. I'm a voiceover for my day job. I do voice work. And so I'm very interested in what you're speaking about. And also I listen to. To quite a bit of the healing project, and it is epic. And I say, you don't box yourself in with just America. I mean, it's a message that could resonate globally, really. And it's really unique, and it pulls you in. It's. It's not like anything I've ever heard before.
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Samora Pinterhues
Thank you. That's a high compliment. I mean, that's something I also always try to do in. In my work. And, you know, with humility, understanding that I don't really think there's anything all the way 100% original. You know, we all pull from so many sources, and I think it's important to cite all the sources and cite all the influences that create us and create art. But at the same time, I'm always am striving for that. That originality or that uniqueness of, okay, this is something that I haven't quite heard anything like that. And it might jolt the listener in a different new way. So, yeah, I appreciate that so much. And I think you're right also about the global look. I mean, all the people that are a part of the project are based in the US and so we've only really presented the work here so far, but I really do hope that it reaches that global audience because I think you're right. These issues are totally happening around the world in a lot of different ways. And people are also affected in very universal ways by, you know, things like grief and loss and, you know, depression, anxiety, the trauma from, you know, violence is of many different kinds. So I think that even if people haven't been through these specific systemic experiences that are a focus of the project, I think there's things that they're going to connect to and say, well, I know I've been through this, or I know my brother or my, you know, sister, my mom, who has been through this.
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Lynne Hoffman
Well, you've collaborated with many renowned artists, like Herbie Hancock, for example. One of my. My faves. How did that experience shape your approach to music and activism, combining the two?
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Samora Pinterhues
Yeah, I mean, Herbie's my hero. You know, he's the reason that I started playing piano. You know, I was like, I was a drummer and then I heard. Heard Herbie play on Miles Records. You know, my teacher, Geechee Taylor, he. He gave me all these albums of that Miles Quintet. And I was just like, oh, this is the sound that I'm looking for. So, you know, he's always been my hero. And I met him actually through my sister, who's like another. Just another genius musician. And she's.
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Lynne Hoffman
She's worked with him, so it runs in the family.
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Samora Pinterhues
Yeah, yeah. My sister is like the best musician in the family, to be honest. She's a genius. So she has toured with him for a few years now. And so I met him through her and worked on some. Some pieces with him. And I think what I just learned the most from Herbie is like, his boundless curiosity and playfulness. Like, he is even still now, as, you know, one of the greatest of all time. And also he's, you know, up there in age, but his energy is. Is like 20 times even me when I was in the room. Because he's always following ideas. He's getting new equipment, he's trying out new, new different, you know, keyboards and technologies and sounds. And he just always stays curious. He's always looking for more ways to be inspired. And, you know, he's never. His attitude is never. Well, you know, I know all about there is to know or anything like that, because you can't. You can never know as much as there is to know about music. And so, you know, that was just so inspiring to be around to say, like, this is somebody who, you know, is, to me, like, the greatest living pianist or, you know, one of the greatest living pianists. And he's still so curious and still always trying to find new ways to play.
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Lynne Hoffman
Staying hungry is. Is a good thing. Definitely. Definitely. And your music helps. I would imagine a lot of people who. Well, I'm gonna guess this, but I'm sure you would agree that were going through challenging times and needed that. That inspiration. So it's. It's. I'm curious how music played a role in. In personal healing for you and in your journey in life. Was there a specific thing that. That you realized, wow, music really played this role in me getting healthy?
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Samora Pinterhues
Yeah, I mean, I think what I have learned about music is that in a strange, mysterious way, it tends to know things before I can articulate them. And so it's almost given me language throughout the years for what I've been going through. I don't necessarily think that it does the healing for me. And I actually think I've learned to make that distinction in an important way, because as a performer, you know, you give a lot, and the music that you make is supposed to be a gift. It's not for me. It's for the listener. And so, you know, I think the exchange around that, as a young musician, you can believe that. Well, you know, I'm pouring all of myself into this music, and it is a very cathartic process. And you learn so much about yourself, so you can mistake that for that learning for the healing process itself. But what I've learned is that the art gives me language, and then I have to go out and find the tools that I need to actually do the healing. You know, that's where, you know, therapy comes in and different forms of healing practice and community support, you know, and just, like, engagement with myself. I think that's where the healing for me comes in. But the creative practice is a part of that. And I think the part that it is is, number one, just having the freedom of expression, like, knowing that at any time I have this outlet which is, you know, such a special opportunity to, you know, just put down and connect to whatever I'm. I'm feeling and dealing with and give all this kind of dimension to it. And I think also, like I said, the other part is that if I'm stuck on something, like, I. I know I'm going through something, but I can't really understand what it is. If I will know about it just through making work around it, I will understand it. And it's been really strange, in a funny way, to, like, Go back to some of the songs that I've written and be like, wow, this song. Knew that I was going through this before I could make sense of it. And, like, the language that's in the material, it allowed me to get, like, to figure out, oh, this is what I'm, you know, dealing with. So I think that's something really special. And then obviously, on the listener side, like you said, hopefully the listener can feel reflected in the music. And I've certainly experienced that as a listener, where a lot of music I've. I've heard, I'm like, again, it gives voice to what you're going through, so. Oh, that's what it is, you know, So I think that's what.
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Lynne Hoffman
Give me an example of a. Of a song or an artist that you would hear that would make you feel.
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Samora Pinterhues
That's a really good question. That's really good question. I. That's a good question. I.
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Lynne Hoffman
Do you put different music on, depending on your mood or something you may be dealing with? You have to figure out.
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Samora Pinterhues
Yeah, yeah, I do. I mean, I think off the top of my head, you know, it's hard to. To remember an exact time because I haven't had, like, an immediate experience of that in a little bit. But there's so many different, you know, contexts in which I can say that that has happened to me. But I probably have to follow up with you on that one, because I don't have anything when it comes to mine.
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Lynne Hoffman
That's okay, we can. We can go back to that one. No, but your, you know, your work often combines music with other art forms like film and poetry. And how do you see these different mediums that you're putting together complement each other?
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Samora Pinterhues
I think they. They kind of just go together very naturally for me. Like, I already always thought of music as film scenes. I didn't do that intentionally. But as I write.
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Lynne Hoffman
Oh, how interesting.
- [17:59]
Samora Pinterhues
Particularly with lyrics like, I just. That's. I just see it in my head, like a song. For me, I see it as, like, a scene. And that's how I. I am able to, like, develop the characters and in the song and things like that. Even if it's something that is based off of something I've been through, it still is a process of, like, seeing the scene in my head to be able to write the song. And so even before I was making movies, you know, short films and things like that, I would always see the scenes in my head from just writing music. And so it was. The extension to just actually making films was more of a technical one than it was kind of a shift in imagination. And that just came number one with, you know, getting very inspired and trying to kind of do a lot of informal study because I didn't go to school for that. But I just, you know, I went to YouTube school like a lot of people, and then also just watched a lot of films. And then the rest comes through collaboration, which has just been the other blessing in my life, which I think is the case for all artists is, you know, just finding the right collaborators. For me, that was just this kind of collective of filmmakers that I was lucky enough to be a part of, kind of like building around. And Christian Padron is kind of like my main. My main guy, like co director. We make all the films together, but there's kind of a loose collective of each other that we make things together and inspire each other. We call it. Call it risk. It's, you know, Christians. Anyway, neutron the scene, Norris and Saibaji to Shosi. And so, you know, we're always kind of like bouncing inspiration off each other, making things, supporting each other's work. And they're all high level filmmakers. And, you know, I'm kind of like the person coming in from the music side, but I think that allows me to see everything in a different, you know, way. And so I think collaborative, collaboratively we're able to create things that would, you know, are very different than the normal perspective and apply, I guess I would say, sonic principles to the visual medium.
- [20:19]
Lynne Hoffman
Oh, I like that.
- [20:20]
Samora Pinterhues
So I think that that gives me, I think, a different dimension to how I approach the film work that I do.
- [20:28]
Lynne Hoffman
Well, it's always exciting when you get to meet and talk to someone who's sort of breaking down barriers, or maybe not so much barriers, but creating things that haven't been created, which is in a world that we live in today. It's getting rarer and rarer. I think although there are so many out there, it's just harder to find because there's so many.
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Samora Pinterhues
I agree. And not as a. I mean, I guess it technically is a critique, but I don't mean it in a harsh way, but I just think that there's a lot of pressure on artists these days to do things that they see working, you know, and so that produces a lot of similar work because people are like, oh, people get this and they get it quickly. And, you know, it's a populated and hard world inside of like, the industries of art. And so I think that people are incentivized to. Yeah, just like make kind of carbon copies of what already exists, but maybe with a different spin. But I just don't think that that lasts the test of time, you know, And I. I don't. I wouldn't say that. I. I'm not the judge of whether, obviously my work will do that, but I will say that that is the attempt, you know, like all. Again, all the artists that I admire the most, like, that's what their work does. So I have to try.
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Lynne Hoffman
I love that. And do you feel as though by doing something for yourself, regardless of that it's different, that it's for you, takes a little bit of the pressure off for others? In other words, you know, you're not making it to be successful, you're making it to help.
- [22:12]
Samora Pinterhues
Yeah. I mean, my hero is. Is James Baldwin. So I learned a lot from just reading his work. And he has all these wonderful essays about the role and responsibility of the artist. And I think he makes it very clear that the role and responsibility of the artist is to be of service. You know, it's service work, and it's spiritual and creative and emotional service work. And so as a result, you know, the expectation that you will receive the fruits of that service immediately is not. That's not part of the job description. And obviously, you know, we have to understand, just like everybody else, that we have to materially be able to engage with life. And so, you know, artists deserve all the security and the, you know, a lot. There should be a lot that artists have from a quality of life perspective that, you know, we have to really fight very hard to get and that people don't really understand, like, that we, you know, don't have the. We don't have the infrastructures that we deserve to have based on the service that we play in society. But at the same time, you know, as far as what the creative work is supposed to do, I think for me it's. It's a matter of trust, I guess, in the sense that my hope is if I follow that creative process in a pure and honest way, and I do it without, you know, the ego and the interruptions of, well, what is going to work and what's not going to work, but more just what is supposed to be made, then, you know, you trust that that will carry you to the ears and the hearts of the people that need it.
- [24:01]
Lynne Hoffman
What do you think it is about music that is so healing? Is it the words? Is it the. The chorus? Is it the instruments vibration? Some people have said, do you have a specific idea or thought of what it is that is so healing with music?
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Samora Pinterhues
That's a really good question. And, you know, I. I feel like I. I always want to do more research on that. And I'm sure there's people that could speak to, like, the actual physical and scientific and spiritual properties of what music does and, like, certainly, like, physically to the body, you know, And I think I certainly experienced that with live performance. I think that's why I really still believe, even in the digital and technological age and the power of live performance, it's not just because of the, you know, musical, you know, and collective energy, which is very important, but it's also because of literally, like, how the sound changes the physical space and how the effects of that sound in that physical space, like how it charges their bodies and their minds and their spirits. So that. That really means a lot to me. And I think, you know, I receive a lot from live performance with that exchange. But I think in general, I think it's just. It can do so many things, but I think one big part of it, emotionally, is just how personal it can be. I think that's something that. With regards to all the. With regards to all the different artistic disciplines, you know, they all do very different, important healing work and all different types of work, not just healing work. But I think one thing that's unique is that with the other main disciplines, whether it's like, you know, film or theater or dance, even visual art, there's kind of a subject object relationship where you're usually just slightly removed from the work. And so you are able to still put yourself in it, but you're still very conscious that you're, like, placing yourself in relationship to an object or a character or a story or something like that. Whereas with music, you can put on your headphones or even be listening to a concert and be with other people and hear the right song and literally feel like you are doing it, like you're singing it, or you're experiencing this. This thing, and it becomes like. It's literally a part of your, like, in your head, in your body. And I think that's something very unique to music that it can be at once such a. Like a personal, singular experience and also have that still. Still that same collective thing that's happening. And I feel like that can be very healing because it gives you a very rare chance to, like, see yourself in a new way or to see yourself reflected, hear yourself reflected in a new way that really does feel like you're not stepping outside of yourself, but literally, like, just able to be echoed. You know, Jack, my friend Jack, who also was the co producer and collaborate core collaborator on Venus, the album, the new album, he said something that I think about a lot. He said, you know, I asked him, what is the. What are the properties of echo? Like, just, like, physically, you know, as a tool? And he said, an echo is an imperfect copy. And I was like, oh, that's great. Like, that's such a great concept. I feel like that's music. It is music. Echoes in us as like, an imperfect copy of us. If it's hitting the right way, it's like, wow, this is me. But just maybe, like, through the prism of this other person. So that's the long answer for like, an imperfect Rorschach.
- [27:49]
Lynne Hoffman
No, I think it's beautiful. I thought what you said makes a lot of sense. What have some of your fans told you about what they get out of your music?
- [28:00]
Music Fan
You know, it's very humbling, I think. I think the best kind of exchanges that I've gotten are people that just feel kind of similar to what we're talking about in the last question. They feel reflected, you know, and so people saying, you know, oh, with this song, that was my experience, and I've never heard it articulate in that way. And I think, you know, hopefully it's because I think I try to be, like, very rigorously honest in the work and complex. So some songs can, like, you know, be a little bit complicated in, I think, important ways. Like, you know, the song grief that I have for my old album, which just talks not only about the reality of losing somebody, but a lot of the complicated feelings around it, like bitter and revenge and not understanding how to get over it or get through it, like, in whatever quadrant of time, people.
- [28:53]
Samora Pinterhues
Wanting to move on.
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Music Fan
And so I think people who have experienced grief, like, they appreciate that I'm making an allowance for them, which we all should, but it's just the society doesn't really allow for that. And I think hopefully with the new music, it does similar things. You know, there's a song called Forgive Yourself which ends the album, which is hopefully similarly. Like, I think for a lot of people, when they hear that, they're like, wow. Like, I. I've never allowed myself to attain forgiveness around this thing in my life. And so those are the things that mean the most to me, is when people are able to engage that way, you know, take the music home with them and be like, wow, I feel like this is changing my life in this. That's a beautiful, humbling experience.
- [29:42]
Lynne Hoffman
It's pretty special. You recently received a significant grant, and the changes that it can make are pretty big. What are your hopes for it?
- [29:52]
Samora Pinterhues
Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, a.
- [29:54]
Music Fan
Couple years ago, I transformed the Healing Project into an organization, a full fledged organization. And so now, you know, what I'm hoping that that will be able to do is to really be both an artistic organization and a direct service organization. Kind of like advocating for an abolitionist perspective in art, which obviously we're not the only people that do that. We're part of humanity. But also, I think the ways that we do it are maybe unique in that it's a very collective experience. So we're building a lot of models for collective ownership of art, for collective exchange between currently and formerly incarcerated artists and artists of different experiences around the world who want to speak to that experience and collaborate. We're using the art, you know, to directly affect policy around the prison industrial complex and also to try to actually get people out of prison. You know, we've been working for the last couple years on a particular case around Keith Lamar, who's an amazing artist who was falsely accused in Ohio and is on death row. And we're, you know, working with a lot of different amazing artists, from visual artists like Peter McCoy in Maryland, you know, to just incredible folks. So, you know, my hope with the organization is just that it can change, you know, people's perceptions around the. What they think the purpose of the prison is, and really understanding that it is not the way to actually rehabilitate SHIELD whatever you want to say about, like, changing the society or whatever use you have. Thank you for the prison. And also to provide that sense of imagination and possibility around what a world that's built around healing would really look like. What. What are those frameworks? What are those ways that we treat each other? And also how could that be scaled into actual institutions so that we could have a different way of being that would actually achieve the aims that we, you know, hope to. To be about as a society and as a world. So that's the mission of the organization. And I think what that also allows me to do is that I can, you know, I'm the artistic and executive director of the Healing Project, and so I'm able to lead the organization and kind of determine the vision and the possibilities around it, but move as a collective. And meanwhile, I can also operate as an individual artist and put out albums like Venus, which are very personal projects which kind of have their relationship through my desire to heal through all projects. But, you know, it's really of that project. It's very personal thing too. So it allows me to kind of operate in these two interlocking ways, but still like stay creative and stay flexible, you know, and do all these different types of things that I want to do. So it's a big blessing, you know, that I really don't take for granted. And my hope is just that it can inspire and also provide opportunities for a lot of different artists that want to speak to these issues.
- [33:07]
Lynne Hoffman
Well, it's such a beautiful sentiment and you are. I don't think this is proper grammar, but you are being the change that you want to see. And not only are you inspiring people, but you're creating a legacy. And I think that's pretty darn special. And some more, I just want to thank you so much for spending the time with us today. Congratulations on the new project. I want to get it right. It's called Venus Smiles not in the House of Tears. It's phenomenal. It is. So you just put it on and it will take you on an amazing journey and we're very excited for you. Congratulations on everything now and in the future. I'm sure we're going to talk again and thank you for being on Music Save Me. It was such a pleasure.
- [33:48]
Samora Pinterhues
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
- [33:50]
Music Fan
It means a lot to me and you know, music has saved me many times. So I believe in the mission and grateful to be in conversation. Hope everything is beautiful in your world.
- [34:04]
Homes.com Advertiser
Homes.com has collaboration tools to help home shoppers search, share and discuss home shopping with family, friends and their agent directly through the site. Though it was fun to get that email from your husband about that three bedroom in the hills, to which you replied via text that you would never live in the hills and you'd like to find a three bedroom closer to the beach. To which he replied, why are you so uncompromising? A fun way to spend an afternoon, but we think it's just a tad bit easier our way. Homes.com we've done your homework.
- [34:34]
Walton Goggins
So you want to start a business. You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills, but listen to me when I say you don't. You just need godaddy Arrow I'm Walton Goggins, an actor and I like the sound of starting my own business, Walton Goggins Goggle Glasses. But I couldn't do this my own. GoDaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create A custom website. It'll write social posts for you and even set you up with a social media calendar. How cool is that? Well, listen to this. For a limited time, you can get Arrow all access for just a dollar a week for 12 weeks. We're talking all the AI power of GoDaddy arrow plus a domain E commerce store, payments, professional email, a unified inbox. All for less money than I spend on deep tanning lotion while sunbathing off the Amalfi coast. You know what? That sounds like a plan. Get started. @godaddy.com terms apply.
- [35:31]
Podcast Host
For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves. Loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent, where money means more Connect with us@thrivent.com Millions of people have turned to Claude, the AI assistant from Anthropic because it just feels different. Where other AIs often sound a little robotic, Claude has been designed with special research that informs its character, meaning that Claude just gets it when it comes to empathy and emotional intelligence. That's why Claude has become the if you know, you know choice for dating advice, career coaching, gathering your thoughts for those important life decisions, and more. Give Claude a try for free at Claude.com. that's C-L-A-U-E.com and let us know how you feel. The difference.
- [36:39]
Samora Pinterhues
Here at the Almond Joy Factory, where tropical vibes abound, we use soft, fresh tasting coconut, the crunchiest almonds, and delicious chocolate candy. Ah, but do you know what our most important ingredient is? Sometimes you feel like an nut, sometimes you don't.
- [36:58]
Music Fan
Almond Joy's got nuts and something even way better than that.
- [37:02]
Samora Pinterhues
Yes, Almond Joy is made with almonds and your heart.
- [37:08]
Podcast Host
This is an I Heart podcast.