← Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
Join Buzz Knight as He Walks with Derek Shulman, Exploring Music History and Legendary Stories from the Music Industry
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- [00:01]
Buzz Knight
Taking a Walk I'm Buzz Knight and this is the Taking a Walk podcast. Now what do you do after you've been the voice of one of progressive rock's most uncompromising bands? You sign Bon Jovi when no one else would take the risk, and you helped shape the sound of metal as president of Roadrunner Records. If you're Derek Shulman, you write a book about it all Today on Taking a Walk. I'm so excited to be joined by Derek Shulman, former frontman of Gentle Gian and legendary music executive who's just released his new book, Giant Steps. Of course we like the title of that because we're taking a Walk. He chronicles his remarkable journey from the stage to the boardroom and everything in between. Derek Shulman is next after we pay a few bills on the Taking a Walk podcast. This is an iHeart podcast, guaranteed human this episode of Taking a Walk is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether I'm booking my next vacation or going to a concert, Chase Sapphire Reserve is my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times points on all the purchases I make through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. No matter where I'm walking, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [01:55]
Derek Shulman
So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM.
- [02:23]
This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something.
- [02:26]
Buzz Knight
Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA.
- [02:30]
Derek Shulman
In adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without.
- [02:33]
Buzz Knight
You knowing if anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability.
- [02:41]
Derek Shulman
And concentration issues, it may be due to osa.
- [02:45]
Buzz Knight
OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation.
- [02:54]
Derek Shulman
Learn more at.
- [02:55]
Buzz Knight
Don't sleep on osa.com this information is.
- [02:59]
Derek Shulman
Provided by Lilly, a medicine company.
- [03:04]
And Doug.
- [03:05]
Buzz Knight
There's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means playing in a football game.
- [03:11]
Derek Shulman
Boom. 42. You're going down, Doug. Oh, yeah.
- [03:15]
Buzz Knight
Your price on car insurance when you customize and save is going down.
- [03:18]
Derek Shulman
Hey.
- [03:22]
Buzz Knight
Limu, what are you doing on their team? Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty, Liberty.
- [03:30]
Derek Shulman
Liberty. Liberty. This is Eva Longoria from Hungry for History with Eva Longoria and Maite Gomez Rejon. Like the song says, it's the most wonderful time of the year and also a wonderfully busy one. All that merriment can weigh down even Santa's sleigh.
- [03:46]
Buzz Knight
So keep it wonderful by keeping yourself.
- [03:48]
Derek Shulman
Wonderful with a crisp, cold Coca Cola.
- [03:51]
Buzz Knight
Ah.
- [03:52]
Derek Shulman
Pause for fizzy joy. Look out for yourself and then look.
- [03:56]
Buzz Knight
Out for everyone else.
- [03:57]
Derek Shulman
And together we'll make this season as.
- [03:59]
Buzz Knight
Wonderful as it's meant to be.
- [04:01]
Derek Shulman
Enjoy a Coca Cola. Refresh your holidays.
- [04:08]
Taking a Walk.
- [04:09]
Buzz Knight
Well, here on Taking A Walk, we welcome an old friend, Derek Shulman. Welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast, sir.
- [04:17]
Derek Shulman
I'm really happy to be here with you, Buzz. It's been a long time, so I'd.
- [04:22]
Buzz Knight
Like to open with this question, which goes all different directions. So there's no right or wrong answer to the opening. The opening salvo, as it were. Derek Shulman, if you could take a walk with someone, living or dead, who would you take a walk with and where would you take that walk with him?
- [04:42]
Derek Shulman
Oh, wow. What a question that is.
- [04:46]
Okay, I'm going to say something which is very important to me. I would take a walk with my younger brother Ray, who passed away a couple of years ago. He was my best friend as well as my sibling, and he was my musical partner in both Simon Dupree and Gentle Giant and Post general Jim when we did things together with the catalog, and we were, we were almost twins, I mean, and, you know, it was very sad that he succumbed to cancer a couple of years ago. So that's, that's my, the. I, I thought of all the other people that I admire or, or have been influential in my life, but that's the one I would love to take a walk with tonight.
- [05:34]
Buzz Knight
Well, I want to go back to the beginning when you first got impacted by music. Do you remember the moment that it smacked you that you knew you'd have a life of music, whether as a musician or as a executive?
- [05:50]
Derek Shulman
Probably when. As soon as I was able to walk, because my father was a professional jazz musician and he was a trumpeter and he was first of all, an amazing musician. He played every night of the week and come home at the inn late night and then when he came home, he'd bring home some musicians and play for himself in the front room until little hours in the morning. So music was always around the house and my mother loved music as well, so music and musical instruments were always around. So I guess, you know, the idea of having music in my life was always there. But I do remember the. The time. I remember there's two. Two periods of time. When I first heard the Beatles on the radio in 1962, I think love Me do came on the radio. I remember hearing that and coming into school and saying to a couple of friends who are into new music, did you just hear that amazing song by the Beatles, love Me Do? And they said, yeah, yeah, what is that? And they changed everything in England. This was for. They changed music, they changed the culture, they changed the world for kids who were into music, who loved music and had it not been for the Beatles, I think that our lives would not be the way that they turned out. Certainly my life didn't, you know. And then when that happened, my sister had already given me her. My elder sister had given me a Spanish guitar. So I learned a few chords and when I heard the Beatles, I said, I've got to put a band together. And I had a couple of school friends who were, you know, into playing music and I recruited those two or three school friends and my brother Ray, who was a violinist, who was a classical violinist, and he was actually being groomed to be in the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain. He was that good. And I said to Ray, we were putting a band together, why don't you just join us on the violin, Play rhythm violin, which is the craziest thing. So we started becoming a group and it wasn't. It wasn't the group that became Cybi Dupree with Big Sound. It was just a group listening to R and B and soul music, which we listened to on American Force of Network and then we whittled it down and my brother Ray took over the guitar and ultimately we became a group called Siam B Dupree and the Big Sound and my elder brother joined, Make a long Story Short, which is what I'm doing, and we were quite popular, actually, very popular all over UK and even in Europe before we had a record deal. And my sister was married to a BBC producer and she said, you know, my brothers are doing really well. Why don't you take a listen to them and see what you can do. And he, John, this is the John King his name was. And he came to Sears and said, boy, you guys are good. How about me managing you? We said, sure. So he did and he got us an audition at Abbey Road and we went up to EMI at Abbey Road in front of us, where all the staff produced it. George Martin, you know, Lori Paramore, you know, Jeff Emmerich, et cetera. There were 25 producers there. And we were, we went on stage and we thought it was just for a song or two. And they said, okay, play your set. And we thought, what? Play the whole set. A two hour set. So we literally played our set in front of these guys sitting there like this. And we played our set and they said, thank you. And we went back into the van, went back to Portsmouth where we lived. We thought, did we get a deal? Did we not get a deal? A couple of days later my, our manager John King called us and said, you have a record deal with Parlor Phone Records. We were on our way. Wow.
- [10:18]
Buzz Knight
That was the beginning of the ride.
- [10:21]
Derek Shulman
Yeah, that was the beginning of the ride. But I do remember before that a little episode which is in the book actually, but when I, you know, I was, I had a scholarship to a grammar school in England. You know, that's, that's where you're streamed to be the professionals and the elite of, of the English society back then. I mean, it was a very class system, you know, class based system then. And you were expected to be, you know, the politicians, the doctors, the lawyers. And I remember this schoolmaster going around when in the second or third year, we're 14 or 13, and you know, each pupil would say, I'm going to be a professor, I'm going to be a doctor, I'm going to be in politics. And I said, I'm going to be a rock star.
- [11:11]
And in the class, kind of convulsive laughter and I looked around and then the schoolmaster said, don't be silly, Schulman, that's impossible. One in a million. That'll happen too. But that's. So think of other things. And I said, okay, but I'm going to be a rock star. And two and a half years later I came back, I was still at school, but I had my first single out and the same master was asking for my autograph.
- [11:43]
So there you are.
- [11:44]
Buzz Knight
Wow. Now go back to George Martin and Jeff Emerick, who you mentioned that were among that, that group that you had to play your, your set before. Did you subsequently, after that have any Interaction with, With those two gentlemen?
- [12:03]
Derek Shulman
Oh, absolutely. I mean, Jeff Emmerich was our engineer for several of our singles and George Martin engineered a couple of our singles. We were in Abbey Road a lot. I mean, we. For the time inside the Dupree, we'd go up to Abbey Road and you'd have three hour sessions. Every band who assigned to any EMI label, whether it was Parlophone, Columbia, I can't remember what is maybe hnv, I can't remember, would have three hour sessions. So, yeah, Jeff Emmerich was, strangely enough, he was the engineer on our first ever single, I See the Light, this is in England and our very last record as Gentle Giant in la when we did Civilian. So Jeff Embrick was the bookends of our recording career, if you like. Yeah. So we were there with Jeff and George Martin and David Paramore and all these Alan Parsons and et cetera, et cetera. They were all part of the same learning experience, if you like. For all of us.
- [13:12]
Buzz Knight
This book is so incredible. It's such an incredible life that you are leading. Take me to the beginning. Three brothers deciding to form one of the most complex progressive rock bands ever. What was that dinner table conversation ultimately like?
- [13:32]
Derek Shulman
Well, it was, it was, you know, we. We were. We didn't know what we were going to be, honestly. We just knew that we didn't want to do what we had been doing as being a pop band, but a really good one, but playing a circuit where we're ultimately playing to an audience that just wanted to hear the hits. We were getting better musically also. We were listening to stuff that was a little more complex anyway. And in fact.
- [14:01]
One of our.
- [14:04]
Influencers was a keyboard player who played with us for a little while named Reg Dwight, who said, you guys should listen to some stuff that's going on out in the west coast of America, like Frank Zack, like Miles Davis, like Spirit. And in fact, when we told Reg that in fact we're going to break up as he. Because he thought the Shulman brothers were pretty damn good musicians, and we thought he was pretty damn good himself because he played with us for, you know, as a sub for several months, we went up to where he lived in Watford. He just met Bernie. We told him we're going to break the group up and start something new. And he said, I'd love to hear what you're doing and perhaps even join. And so BN Ray went up to his house where he was living with his mom still and heard some songs like Skyline, Pigeon, Et Cetera. And you Know, we thought they were great, but not really what we were looking for. So we went back to Portsmouth and told him, you know, this is not really where we're at, thankfully for him, because, you know, six months later, he was Elton John and he was a massive star. And six months later, we were a Gentle Giant and looking for a gig.
- [15:26]
But he was influential in saying, you guys should listen to other things. And we did. And that's why we decided to break that band up, Simon Dupre, and do something. We didn't know where it was going to go, but we were lucky enough to have a manager, a guy called Jerry Braun, who believed in us musically and personally, to subsidize us, finding other musicians and becoming a group called Gentle Giant.
- [15:57]
Buzz Knight
I think, you know this, but the. The progressive rock community to this day is absolutely, you know, rabid. They. So I know there's so many of those Prague rockers who were listening to this, taking this all in, but, you know, what a mark progressive rock and Gentle Giant certainly, you know, have made on the music community. Gentle Giant had this reputation, I recall, from being really a musicians, musicians kind of band. Incredibly technical, complex time signatures, but you were also clearly trying to connect with audiences. How did you balance those two goals?
- [16:43]
Derek Shulman
Well, that's something that was very important to us. Yes, we pushed ourselves. You know, we were lucky enough to find the first member that we found as we put the band together was Carrie Minear, who had a degree in composition and percussion from the Royal Academy of Music. And that. That was incredibly influential to us. Then we found Gary Green, you know, a brilliant blues rock player. Ultimately went through a couple of drummers and John Welles was, you know, a superb drummer. But we. We loved to push ourselves musically first, and we didn't. Again, it was a combination of different influences in the band, in the band's members, but we also enjoyed pushing ourselves and we had fun doing that. And we loved to. When we went out on stage, we enjoyed ourselves on stage and wanted to have our enjoyment translate to the audience. So we wanted to entertain the audience with our music and not just, you know, playing music, which is, again, we're not the National Lead Force or the London Philharmonic. We're a band that was having fun and fun in what we were doing, and we wanted to see smiles on the audience's faces as opposed to people who were listening to a serious classical band or whatever. So that was important. I think the apprenticeship of Cyber Dupree and the Big Sound helped us in that way. Having been out there and been A band that entertained as well as playing the hits, having that ability to entertain as well as play well. So I think that was important to us. We'll be right back with more of the Taking a Walk podcast.
- [18:35]
Buzz Knight
This episode of Taking a Walk is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether I'm booking my next vacation or going to a concert, Chase Sapphire Reserve is my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. Travel is one of the most precious things in my life and the memories of each of the experiences that live on forever. Chase Sapphire Reserve allows me to travel with ease with a $300 travel credit and access to a curated collection of hotels through the edit. So no matter where I'm walking, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase sapphire reserve@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [19:32]
Derek Shulman
So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage? On top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM.
- [20:00]
And Doug. What a horrible call. Hey ref.
- [20:04]
Buzz Knight
Open your eyes, ref. You're really not gonna call that?
- [20:06]
Derek Shulman
Come on.
- [20:07]
Buzz Knight
Hey, ref, why don't you customize your car insurance with Liberty Mutual and save money? I don't think you get what we.
- [20:16]
Derek Shulman
Sure I do.
- [20:16]
Buzz Knight
We're all just giving him advice. You guys on sports, me on saving money. Nope, that's not it. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
- [20:26]
Derek Shulman
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.
- [20:29]
Buzz Knight
Breaking news, everybody. Not everything is terrible. I repeat, not everything is terrible.
- [20:34]
Derek Shulman
The ripple effect with Jenna Kim Jones.
- [20:36]
Buzz Knight
Is proof that the Internet, it hasn't ruined humanity entirely. Let me start by saying it's a.
- [20:41]
Derek Shulman
Great day to be a gray shirt team Rubicon. You know, it truly is a team. Those folks, myself included, all had one desire, which is helping folks in disaster. Trying to be a little bit of.
- [20:52]
Buzz Knight
Hope in a really, really bad situation.
- [20:54]
Derek Shulman
It's like magic, you guys.
- [20:56]
Buzz Knight
So put down your doom scroller and pick up your faith in humanity and.
- [20:59]
Derek Shulman
Join me, Jenna, for the ripple effect.
- [21:02]
Buzz Knight
It's a reminder that you can start a ripple that changes everything.
- [21:06]
Derek Shulman
You really can. We give just that nugget of hope helping other people. For some of our gray shirts, it's during a time when they need help and by helping others, it helps them. Listen to the ripple effect with Jenna Kim Jones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Making the holidays magical for everyone on your list.
- [21:30]
Buzz Knight
It's no small feat, but with TJ.
- [21:32]
Derek Shulman
Maxx, your magic multiplies with quality finds arriving daily through Christmas Eve, you'll save on luxe, cashmere, the latest tech toys and more. So you can check off every name on your list and treat yourself to a holiday look that'll turn heads. Now you know where to go to make all that holiday magic. It's TJ Maxx, of course. It's shaping up to be a very magical holiday.
- [21:59]
Welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast.
- [22:02]
Buzz Knight
Obviously, with the writing of Giant Steps, you've had a chance to really reflect on the legacy of Gentle Giant. What's your reflection of.
- [22:14]
Derek Shulman
Was the best 10 years of my life.
- [22:20]
I could reflect on all the many, many highs of me being in different bands and also being an executive or whatever that means in having been involved in citing some of the biggest bands in the world. And that was an incredible that and still is an incredible thing to be part of. But as I look back, you know, there's nothing like the feeling of being on stage and knowing that you're doing something that is yours and you're projecting who you are and having an audience that is enjoying and loving what you're doing and wanting to hear more of who and what you are. And that's something that is very important. And this is one gig I remember in particular. It was like 1975, 76 at the Shrine Auditorium in LA. We sold it out. It was 8,000 people. And I remember we were on fire. We were really good at desk. I remember that we were playing our ass often.
- [23:27]
And we did our set and the lights went up and went down and we went out for an encore, which is generally the case. And we finished our two song, three song encore. The lights went up and the crowd wouldn't leave. They refused to leave. So we thought, man, we better do something else. So we had a couple other spare songs. This is our repertoire. So we said, damn, we better do some more because they won't leave even though the lights were up. So we went out there and played a couple of other songs. The crowd went crazy but they would not leave. That was the second encore and we didn't have any other more material. We literally had nothing rehearsed. So John Weathers, our drummer, we used to tune up and play before as a sound check, a couple, a couple of songs and we played in The Midnight Hour, that was our workout song. And so we said, listen, we haven't got anything else. Let's play in the midnight hour. So we went out there and said, guys, here we go. We're going to play in the midnight hour for you. And that's what we played as the last encore at the Shrine. And even that went down really well. And it's still there in the crowd. They started to leave then, but, boy, that was. I remember that like it was yesterday that they just refused to leave. And that kind of feeling, if you could bottle that and sell it, it would be worth billions for me.
- [25:01]
Buzz Knight
Anyway.
- [25:03]
So you made this incredible transition from being on stage to being behind the desk. How did that amazing transition occur and what prompted that decision?
- [25:15]
Derek Shulman
Well, it certainly wasn't plan A or even plan B. When we stopped the band, I was thinking about, do I want to produce bands? Well, not really. I went into the studio, or do I want to manage or do I want to go back into another band that was not on the radar? I got a call from a friend who I knew from England who was now working at a company called PolyGram. And he gave me a call. I was living in LA at the time. And he said, what are you up to? And I said, well, I'm deciding whether to produce this band or whatever, but I'm not sure what. And he said, well, we're putting this new department together at polygram called the Walk Department. And this guy who's running it, I've told him about you. And knowing that, you know, a guy called Lee Abrams said, Jeff Pollack. Really? Well, they're big fans of yours.
- [26:10]
Which should touch you a little bit there, there. That you'd be great at the company because also you're, you know, you're musical. So I said, okay. Well, he said, why don't you just come to New York and. And meet this guy Jerry Jaffe, who was head of the department. And so I did. I went out to New York and met Jerry and got offered a job in addition, promotion and artist development. And that was my first entree, if you like, into the. The Darth Vader side of the business.
- [26:44]
Buzz Knight
I do remember Jerry Jaffe, for sure. I'm sure a lot of these names that you're gonna pass by, I remember. So what did your experience as a performing artist teach you about being an A and R executive that, you know, maybe someone who had never been on stage wouldn't understand?
- [27:05]
Derek Shulman
Interesting thing was that towards the end of General Giant, myself and my brother Ray, more Me than Ray took over the management of the band. I think that in retrospect, it was a mistake, but it probably helped me get more of a sort of an eyeball for what happened in the business side of it. And in fact, when I was in the band, my sot Mia Ray produced another band out of Pittsburgh called the Grati Brothers. And I got the record deal with a M&I got the Batture with Van Halen. I mean, that was. That was even while I was in a band, which, you know, that's probably didn't do the Gentle Giant very well. I mean, we were. I was probably doing too many things and not focusing as much as I should have been on what I should, which is the band. However, it gave me kind of an apprenticeship into what was an executive world, if you like. And that first day, I remember at polygram, when I started, I just remember going from office to office and.
- [28:13]
Realizing something. I knew that this wasn't the music business. This is the business of music. And every office had their own agenda. Every office had their own priority, you know, and you had to have a collective, you know, team to make your band work. And I wish I'd known that in general, Giant, I kind of did, but I didn't have the ability or knowledge or whatever it was to make it work for Gentle Giant. But I understood it there. And I remember on the first day, I called my wife and said, I can't do this. You know, this is not for me. This is not a world I want to be in. And she said, don't worry. You stay the course, you know, you'll get it. You'll find out. And I did, you know, and I eventually, after a year or so of doing promotion, if you like, and calling, you know, the radio stations that you're familiar with to get some of the bands that I didn't really think was had a chance, like the Jam that Jerry loved and Radio Provost didn't love. And. And to get them on the radio, I moved into A R, which was much more my liking. And it became, you know, I became a A R man.
- [29:31]
Buzz Knight
You signed Bon Jovi when nobody else would essentially touch them. Can you walk us through that moment? What did you see that others didn't see?
- [29:41]
Derek Shulman
Well, I heard this song, Runaway, on the radio. There was a sampler which that wapp, I think, put out. And when I heard this song, it was in the background when I was doing my work. And I said, who is this in this song? At the very same time, approximately, I heard this Song. An attorney from Philadelphia came and said, there's a kid called John Bongiovi who just put this song out called Runaway, but he's got another four tracks and he's putting a band together. And so I brought him into, into the my office and heard these songs. I said, damn, these are great. What, where and who are they? He said, well, they, they're. He's working at the power station with his second cousin Tony, but he wants to put a band together and this song is one of the songs that will be on the first record, hopefully. I said, well, let me meet this guy, Jon Bon Jovi. So I said, you know, to this guy Arthur, Nan, bring him in. And John came into my office and as he walked into the office, all the girls heads turned and they were slavering. Okay, this is a pretty young guy. But he came into my office. I said, John, you know, I've heard these demos and I've heard this track Runaway, which is great. I mean, it's making a lot of noise. What is it you want to do? And he looked at me and we chatted a little bit before, but that's. That was. I said, what is it? And who is it you want to be? And who is it that you want to. What is it you want out of your musical life? And he said to me, full on, with absolute complete seriousness, he said, I want to be as big or bigger than Elvis. And this is a kid that just had a song, one song on the radio, not even with a band, with a pickup band at the power station. And I believed him 100%. I believed him because I saw in him a drive that is again, if you could bottle someone something and sell it, it's worth a million, million. And he had that. He had that drive. And I saw it in his face, I saw it in eyes and I saw it in his heart. And he said, okay, this kid has got it and he's putting his band together. And I said, put do a couple of shows for me. So I want to make sure that what you have will translate. And we saw a couple of shows and Richie had just become the guitarist. The first show was okay. It wasn't great. At the Copacabana in New York. And then they did a rehearsal show for the department at Sir. And it was good. It wasn't great, but it was good. But I saw in Richie and John something that was very special. So I signed the tour record deal and we went into the studio with.
- [32:45]
With Tomi and put the first album out, Bon Jovi and Runaway was put out as a national hit single, and it did very well. I mean, it wasn't a top 10 hit, but it did. They hit the top 20, I think, and got them on the map. I introduced them to a guy called Doc McGee, who became his manager. They went out there and John and the band worked their asses off. Then we put another album out. I'm just giving you my quick history up until the big break, if you like. The next album was done in Philadelphia, and it wasn't a very pleasant experience, to be perfectly honest. It was the wrong producer. He came this Lance Quinn who worked with him in the Power Station in Philadelphia. That was not a pleasant experience. The album that came out was kind of like a. It wasn't a step up from what the first album was. It was kind of a step aside. But meanwhile, they were playing everywhere. And then we decided, okay, what are we going to do here? Because John and the band, they made a lot of strides in their live show. Now they had to bring it home with their records. And I said, john, what about having a co writer? Ordinarily, if I say that to a band, they kick me out and say, get the hell out of here. But John was absolutely pragmatic. I mean, he said, listen, if someone could help out, get me to where I'm going to go, I'm up for it. Who do you think? And I got in touch with a guy with Gene Simmons, because I saw on his albums, I saw Simmons, Stanley and Child. And I said, gene, who's this guy, Child? And he said, do you remember this band, Desmond Child and Rouge? I said, sure, yeah. We were on Capitol Records. It was the same label as Gentle Giant. He said, well, Desmond Child is a great songwriter. He wrote this Lick it up and with me, and you should meet with him because he's a great writer. So I met Desmond and I said, desmond, I've got this band, Bon Jovi. He said, sure, I know the band. And they're looking to hopefully write with a co writer. Would you like to meet them? And he says, sure. So I actually put John and Richie together with Desmond, and I wrote together. And I heard the demos of this album, which became Slippy When Wet. And then I said, okay, who are we gonna record with? And I turned the Lover Boy album and Saga album out of Vancouver with Bruce Fairburn and Bob Rock, and I got in touch with those guys and I said, we've got this band, Bonobi, and. And they said, well, we. We know the band said, there's some demos. And when I sent the demos, they said, we'd love to do it. We went up to Vancouver to cut to the chase. The Bria went was recorded. We came back to New York and played with the. The. The the team. And I knew then, absolutely 100% knew then that Bon Jovi was going to be as big as Elvis.
- [35:52]
Buzz Knight
What a great story. My God, Amazing stories in this book. Your career would then take you to be president of Roadrunner Records and just, you know, creating a amazing brand in.
- [36:05]
Derek Shulman
Roadrunner and that co. Before that.
- [36:10]
Buzz Knight
Yes.
- [36:11]
Derek Shulman
Yeah.
- [36:11]
Buzz Knight
I mean, just, are there bands or artists that you go, why did I pass on them?
- [36:18]
Derek Shulman
You know, hardly any. Only one that I remember that I. I did, I wasn't sure of, and I did pass, and that was Beck, of all things. I remember him coming in and playing the Loser. And I did. Did like it that much, you know, it sounded weird to me, you know, and I thought about it and I played it. You know, I think that was an echo. And, you know, I pass on it. And look, I was wrong. I mean, that was a. A big mistake. And Beck was. Was. Is still, you know, a very creative force. And that's a great song. I don't know, maybe I was in a bad mood that day or. Or didn't have any sleep or that night, but I missed that one. But for the most part, there was. Wasn't any other band that I said I shoulda coulda. There were a couple of bands that I wished had made it because they were good enough to make it. But for the most part, just about every band that I signed and became successful, they weren't being chased by other labels. They were bands that were doing things which was theirs. And that's something that was important to me. Whether it was Bon Jovi or Cinderella or Pantera or Dream Theater or all these bands, no other label would chase them. They were doing something which was in this word. I used it many times. They were authentic. They were doing something which was theirs and no one else's. And for the most part, labels would chase bands that were already big. Let's go chase the west coast hair band thing, the Hollywood, the Sunset Strip bands. I never got involved in that world. I never got involved in chasing the next thing because it was big. I got involved with bands that were doing their own thing. And I think for the most part, the bands that I signed, I feel fortunate they're still around. They still have careers. And that's the key to a band that's authentic and do their own thing because they ultimately will have a long career. And I'm glad that when I listened to, you know, when I, when I, I just was on the phone to, to the guys at Dream Theater, you know, they were up for, you know, Grammy this year. You know, they, they were, you know, they, they're still around. Bon Jovi is still around. You know, Slipknot is still around, Nickelback are still around. All these bands that I, I, I sign, they're still around after 30 odd years. So they have careers. And the reason why is because they were doing their own thing, not copying anyone else's.
- [39:01]
Buzz Knight
In closing, boy, I could talk to you forever, really.
- [39:07]
Any advice to the young Derek Shulman that you wish you could have maybe given you that would have even made you more of a force? I don't know how you could have been more of a force, but is there any advice you would have given yourself back then?
- [39:25]
Derek Shulman
Well, I took my own advice with, when I said to the school teacher, I'm going to be a rock star. And I stuck to it. And I think what I would say today, if you're a musician, certainly because.
- [39:39]
The gatekeepers and the gates are so hard to get through in this day and age where it was a little different when I was an executive and certainly.
- [39:50]
A band member because you played and you became popular because you got a lot of fans. What I would say to a musician is don't look at analytics, don't look at your likes or your views on YouTube or whatever. Be fucking great at what you do and do something that's yours and do something that is not anyone else's and get an audience and play and play and play until you have something that you build a fan base that is yours and no one else is. And that way you'll make it somehow or other, even though there's so many other things in your way. But it's hard to do that in this day and age. When I was doing it, there were a lot more places to play, clubs to hone your skills. But as far as recording business is concerned, I feel badly and I feel a little sad that the younger generation looks for fame and money first as opposed to and likes and views rather than be really good at what they do. Just be really, really good. Not really good. Be great at what you do and don't look for likes or views or, you know, five seconds of fun riffs or silly moves on TikTok. That's all well and good, but that won't get you a career. The bands I talked to and the band I was In, Gentle Giant, 50 years later, is still I won't say it's popular, but just, well, in some respects more popular in today's world than it was when we were on the road. The hip hop community has taken to our band and last last week we were Songwriters of the Year at BMI because Travis Scott sampled Proclamation and it was the most played song on Spotify last year. So that says a lot about what I'm saying here. Be authentic and be yourself and be great.
- [42:01]
Buzz Knight
Amen. Derek Shulman, would you come back sometimes on Taking a Walk?
- [42:06]
Derek Shulman
I'd love to, of course.
- [42:07]
Buzz Knight
Oh my God. Giant Steps. The book we always talk about the present. We talk about music history. You are music history.
- [42:17]
Derek Shulman
You've created it.
- [42:19]
Buzz Knight
And I'm so honored that you came on to talk to me, Derek. And it's nice to see you again.
- [42:23]
Derek Shulman
It's a pleasure to see you again, Matt. Great to see you.
- [42:26]
Buzz Knight
Thank you.
- [42:28]
Derek Shulman
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts.
- [42:47]
Buzz Knight
This episode of Taking a Walk is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether I'm booking my next vacation or going to a concert, Chase Sapphire Reserve is my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times points on all the purchases I make through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. No matter where I'm walking, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first.
- [44:00]
There the last one.
- [44:04]
Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes.
- [44:11]
Derek Shulman
Amazon five Star Theater Presents Real Customer Reviews Performed by Ed Helms Tonight's Review Tactical Jacket I was living a simple life. Didn't get out much. Then I bought this jacket and everything changed. Women came flocking to me from lands domestic and foreign. On the 245 day sailboat voyage home, I was attacked by a shark. I knew it was the jacket he was after giving up the jacket in exchange for my life. 5 stars Amazon Customer 69. Shop the perfect gift this holiday on Amazon.
- [44:54]
And Doug, what a horrible call. Hey, ref.
- [44:58]
Buzz Knight
Open your eyes, ref. You're really not gonna call that?
- [45:00]
Derek Shulman
Come on.
- [45:01]
Buzz Knight
Hey, ref, why didn't you customize your car insurance with Liberty Mutual and save money? I don't think you get what we're doing.
- [45:10]
Derek Shulman
Sure I do.
- [45:10]
Buzz Knight
We're all just giving him advice. You guys on sports, me on saving money. Nope, that's not it. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty.
- [45:20]
Derek Shulman
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.
- [45:22]
Buzz Knight
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertson's and Safeway. The holiday season can be exhausting with all the parties and the end of year celebrations, but don't forget to take care of yourself by stocking up on.
- [45:32]
Derek Shulman
Your favorite nutritional products.
- [45:34]
Buzz Knight
Now through December 30, shop in store and online and save on items like Cliff Snack Bars, Luna Bars, Boost Nutritional Energy Drinks, Premier Protein Shakes, Z Bar Variety Packs, Open Nature Powder and Body Fortress Protein powder. Offers end December 30th.
- [45:48]
Derek Shulman
Restrictions apply.
- [45:49]
Buzz Knight
Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details. This is an iHeart podcast.
- [45:56]
Derek Shulman
Guaranteed Human.