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Music Saved Me Celebrates the work of Home Base Nation with Mary Gauthier
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Ebony
This is an iHeart podcast.
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Ben O'Keefe
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Ebony
Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebony, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebony, and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Priority from the Black Effect Podcast network. Tune in on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Ryan Mitchell
High Key Looking for your next obsession?
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Ebony
Listen to High Key, a new weekly.
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Ryan Mitchell
Podcast hosted by Ben o' Keefe, Ryan Mitchell and Yvie. Oddly, we got a lot of things to get into. We're gonna gush about the random stuff we can't stop thinking about. I am High Key going to lose my mind over all things Cowboy Carter. I know girl. The way she about to yank my my bank account. Correct. And one thing I really love about this is that she is celebrating her daughters. Oh, I know. Listen to High key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Ebony
Stay informed, empowered and ahead of the curve with a bi N News this Hour podcast updated hourly to bring you the latest stories shaping the Black community. From breaking headlines to cultural milestones, the Black Information Network delivers the facts, the the voices and the perspectives that matter 247 because our stories deserve to be heard. Listen to the BI N News this Hour podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Benedict Townsend
Do you remember Vine? It changed the Internet forever and it vanished in its prime. I'm Benedict Townsend and this is vine. Six seconds that changed the world. The untold story of genius, betrayal and the app that died so that TikTok could thr from overnight stars to the fall that no one saw coming, we're breaking down what made vine iconic. Listen to vine on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [03:08]
Ryan Mitchell
Music Saved Me hey there, I'm Lynn Hoffman, host of the Music Saved Me podcast and from time to time we like to recommend and share other podcasts we love with you. We really love the great work of all the wonderful people at Home Base Nation in Boston and all the great work they do to support our her heroes, the veterans and their families. And we invite you to check out this episode of Home Base Nation featuring a past guest that we had on this podcast, the great singer songwriter Force of Nature, Mary Gaucher. I hope you like it as much as we do and we really love the great work of all the folks at Home Base in Boston and all the great work they do to support the heroes, the veterans and their families. And we invite you to check out this episode of Home Base Nation with a past guest on this podcast, the great singer, songwriter Force of nature, Mary Gaucher.
- [04:02]
Mary Gaucher
Rivals and Rosary beads. You hold on to what you need. Vicodin, morphine, dreams, raffles, rolled your beads.
- [04:30]
Ron Hirshberg
The song you're listening to is called.
- [04:32]
Lynn Hoffman
Rifles and Rosary Beads on the album.
- [04:34]
Ron Hirshberg
With the same title that was Grammy.
- [04:36]
Lynn Hoffman
Nominated for Best folk album in 2018. It was written by two people, Mary.
- [04:42]
Ron Hirshberg
Gaucher and Iraq veteran Joe Costello. Mary was introduced to co writing with veterans through the organization Songwriting with Soldiers.
- [04:51]
Lynn Hoffman
She says this type of work is.
- [04:53]
Ron Hirshberg
All about agency, creating a place for the service member to transition from being the story to to becoming the storyteller. And she writes in her recent book, Saved by a Song, this is what songs do best. They show our insides on the outside. On Home Base Nation today, a conversation with songwriter, author and military family member Mary Gaucher.
- [05:18]
Lynn Hoffman
I'm your host, Ron Hirshberg.
- [05:20]
Ron Hirshberg
Thanks for tuning in. A New Orleans native, Mary had a revelation in July 1990 while listening on her car radio to the song Strange Fire by the Indigo Girls. The song ended, she clenched the steering wheel and cried.
- [05:38]
Lynn Hoffman
And she tells me I was in.
- [05:40]
Ron Hirshberg
Pain, a pain of living an unlived life. She may have been Showing success on paper at the time, a head chef and owner of the thriving restaurant Dixie Kitchen in Boston. But her life was spiraling downward with addiction, alcohol, failed relationships mixed with sadness.
- [05:58]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah, I remember banging my hands against the steering wheel and crying. I was miserable. I was successful, but I didn't. I wasn't sober, and I wasn't happy.
- [06:09]
Ron Hirshberg
A few months later, she was pulled over for drunk driving, and things started to change for the better. And she has remained sober since for 32 years. Through song, she discovered that she could express things that she was not able to express in other ways. She gained confidence in writing and performing.
- [06:27]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah, I look at it as alchemy. It's magic. You take some of the darkest days of your life and write about it in a song, and you make something beautiful out of it. That's alchemy. And here's the catch. You're not going to outrun it. You can't outrun it. It's with you. It's in you. It's in your body, it's in your brain. It's in your soul. It's in your emotional makeup. You're not going to outrun it. And so for me, the answer was to stop running and start slowly walking towards it and trying to alchemize it with music and song. I didn't know that's what I was doing. Of course, this is all in retrospect.
- [07:04]
Ron Hirshberg
She wrote about early childhood trauma and both the pain and blessings of being adopted at 11 months of age. She wrote about family, alcoholism, and her three wars growing up. Vietnam. Her parents war with each other, and the war between she and her father. Mary's dad served in the Korean War, and her cousin was killed in Vietnam at the age of 23. So the military family service runs deep in Mary. And these days, she continues to serve others through her songs. For veterans, they can heal personal wounds and offer something simple but essential being seen.
- [07:42]
Mary Gaucher
When I start to discuss what I've been able to do with the veterans, what we've been able to do with the veterans, the way I look at it is we're giving agency. You go from being the story to being the storyteller. The storyteller has agency. The storyteller is able to make choices and to decide how the story ends.
- [08:05]
Ron Hirshberg
When Mary talks about her sessions with songwriting with soldiers, you can almost hear the phrase in the room, me too, brother, me too. When she describes service members sharing each other's songs.
- [08:16]
Mary Gaucher
They're all scared. They're scared of being rejected. But the opposite happens. They are embraced and empathy occurs. Everyone in the room empathizes, and in that moment, they're no longer alone.
- [08:29]
Ron Hirshberg
Along with songwriter Beth Nielsen Chapman, she wrote with a group of spouses of eod, or Explosive Ordinance Disposal Officers, called.
- [08:38]
Lynn Hoffman
The War after the War, about the.
- [08:40]
Ron Hirshberg
Challenge of family reintegration. Its opening line, who's gonna care for the ones who care for the ones who went to war?
- [08:49]
Mary Gaucher
Being married to a bomb expert whose job every day is to dismantle bombs built to kill them, that's just a crazy marriage to me. That's just. That's the most intensity I've ever heard. It sounds like a pressure cooker every single day. And they're young people and they have kids and their husbands come home different. They come home eventually and they come home different. And so that led to this notion that there's a war after the. And we don't really talk about it.
- [09:17]
Ron Hirshberg
This song, incidentally, was named song of the year in 2018 on NPR by the New Yorkers, Malcolm Gladwell. And just the other day, Mary released her brand new and 11th album, Dark Enough to See the Stars. And we are honored to share a little preview with you, so stick around for that. Mary joined us from her Nashville home, and on her wall hung two flags, one for Ukraine and the other a large rainbow American flag highlighted by sparkling lights, creating a glow. In an interview in 2019 with the Love to All project, Mary said, I am the first openly queer person to play the Grand Ole Opry. I work in a musical genre where most often I am the only gay person. I don't let that stop me. I am so much more than just queer in my work. I focus on what connects people and it works out well. It's Pride Month, and this word, pride has powerful meaning when having the privilege of sitting with Mary Gaucher. Mary shares with us the pride of being a supporter of our veterans and military families and the pride of being a savior of so many with her songs. Thanks so much for joining us.
- [10:26]
Mary Gaucher
Bombed out schools and homes. Kids in the street alone.
- [10:38]
Lynn Hoffman
Mary Gaucher, hello.
- [10:40]
Mary Gaucher
Good to see you.
- [10:42]
Lynn Hoffman
Great to see you. I am so happy to have you on the zoom, as they say. Together we, gosh, we met a few years ago at City Winery in the back room, the Green Room. And we met with Mary Judd and there was a veteran that you. That you had co written with or was on the songwriting with Soldiers Team. And that was a great moment. I'll get to it in a little bit, but to sort of see where you were in your career at that moment, and then learning more about you. And now listening to your book this past couple weeks. Wow. The journey was. It just started for me when I got to know you, like, three years ago, four years ago. But knowing what you've accomplished before that time, to me, is just. It's great to talk with you now.
- [11:36]
Mary Gaucher
It's been a journey, you know, it's been a journey. I really do believe that music and song has been integral in my recovery and in my transformation from a human disaster area into a functional being into a functional being.
- [11:58]
Lynn Hoffman
Not only quite functional, but, you know, someone who not only wrote this great book, saved by a Song, and then went into the studio and read it and spoke spoken word. So one of the things you. You started off in the book, I think it was near the beginning. You said you like to go for walks, and that's when you kind of breathe, think about ideas.
- [12:20]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah, yeah. I did that for a decade, and it's actually pivoted now. I swim.
- [12:25]
Lynn Hoffman
Oh, okay.
- [12:26]
Mary Gaucher
I swim a mile a day. But it's the same process. I'm in another Z, and ideas come. Or I sort out stuff without consciously trying to, while I'm just counting my.
- [12:41]
Lynn Hoffman
Strokes in that sort of state of flow. You know, I mentioned that, Mary, because I've been going on walks and I've been actually doing some running, trying to get back in shape, and I walked and ran to your book over seven hours in the last couple weeks.
- [13:00]
Mary Gaucher
Oh, wow. So we're. We're acquainted now.
- [13:04]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah. So you've been hanging out. You didn't know it, Mary, but you've been hanging out with me for a while, and we've been like, you know, going down the block. We've gone around the track. I've had some moments where I've stopped in my tracks and need to pull over. And I know that's kind of what you. One of the. One of the big parts of your journey was. Was pulling over that. Pulling over. When you heard that Indigo Girls song Strange Fire.
- [13:33]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah, There was some message in the bottle for me, but I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what it was for quite a while, and it took quite a while to make sense of that feeling. It was more than just a song. There was so much in that sound, and I had no idea what it was trying to tell me, but it was.
- [13:55]
Lynn Hoffman
And you look back on that, and I think you told Amy Ray, who interviewed you had the pain of an unlived life.
- [14:02]
Ron Hirshberg
Can you.
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Mary Gaucher
That's right.
- [14:04]
Lynn Hoffman
Can we dive into that.
- [14:05]
Mary Gaucher
We can. It's hard to. You know, we are really complex beings, and there's so much about that that's hard to express in language. But I think that drugs and alcohol blocked me from what I would have done otherwise. Of course, I didn't know that's what was going on. So I ended up doing what I could and I did, you know, pretty well. I found investors. I was able to be part owner of a couple of restaurants in Boston. The first one was a little place on the bottom of Beacon Hill called Lunch Break across from Mass General. And we did that successfully for years and then opened up Dixie, the Dixie Kitchen, which we did for over a decade, Louisiana style food in Boston. And I had a little clamshack on the beach in Dorchester by the Savin Hill Yacht Club, Savin Hill. And I was able to do that kind of work. But what my soul was interested in was music and song, and I hadn't even tried because I didn't think I could. And when I heard the sound of the Indigo Girls voices, that just opened like a. I called it a trap door and I just fell through it. And it was like, oh, my God, what is this feeling? It feels horrible. I love the song. I love the sound, but the feeling felt horrible.
- [15:47]
Lynn Hoffman
That's when you pulled over?
- [15:49]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah. I remember banging my hands against the steering wheel and crying. I was miserable. I was successful, but I wasn't sober and I wasn't happy, and I was going down the wrong road fast. Like, metaphorically. I was sinking in addiction. And, you know, not too long after that, I got arrested for drunk driving. And that was the best thing that ever happened to me because I got sober. That was July 1990.
- [16:19]
Lynn Hoffman
And you're. I think you're 32 years. Can I do the math?
- [16:23]
Mary Gaucher
32 years clean and sober. Yeah.
- [16:25]
Lynn Hoffman
Congratulations, my friend.
- [16:26]
Mary Gaucher
Thank you. Yeah. And so my early recovery was about trying to make sense of that feeling, about wondering and asking, what. What am I supposed to be doing? What would I do if I could do anything? And the answer slowly started to become, you'd be a songwriter.
- [16:48]
Lynn Hoffman
It took getting pulled over by a cop and arrested for drunk driving. But then again, it sounds like when you were sober was really when the magic happened.
- [16:59]
Mary Gaucher
Right. Right after I got sober, I started to develop emotionally and spiritually. And, you know, anybody addicted to drugs and alcohol is not developing in any way. Completely stuck as a human being. And in. In many ways developmentally. I was 14 when I got sober at 27.
- [17:23]
Lynn Hoffman
You were 14 when you got sober at 27, emotionally, spiritually. Yeah, so. And when you. When you. When you look at that time, was it the opportunity to get into music and explore? You talk a lot about your book, how, you know, getting. Getting on that stage, whether it's Club Passim or another writers round where it's terrifying. But was it the anticipation of the music that drove you, or were you actually feeling that you could write songs and perform and thus that gave you more drive? It was a chicken of the egg.
- [18:02]
Mary Gaucher
I had no idea what I was doing. I just knew that it was compelling to me to do it and to get better at it. And I was like everyone in the very beginning, I. I wasn't good at it, so I had to learn how to do it. I remember for quite some time, maybe years, on stage, just praying, please help me to be as good at this as I am at making gumbo and jambalaya. You know, it's just. That's all I'm asking, Lord, just get me there. As I learned to be in the kitchen, I knew I could learn to be on stage, but I had to go through it in real time in front of people. And that's humbling. And I don't know why I was willing to do that. An awful lot of people are not. I think it's because I was sober, and I knew that whatever happened after I got sober, it was all just a gift, because really, if there were justice and fairness, I should have been dead. So this was all kind of bonus. I'm still. I'm living in this bonus time. I got these bonus rounds. And so that kind of freed me to do crazy, crazy things like get on stage when I knew that I was not good at it.
- [19:18]
Lynn Hoffman
So you went into this new culture, build yourself up, got some fans around you, got people to really raise an eyebrow that you had something to say, but that you were kind of ballsy enough to do it, frankly.
- [19:32]
Mary Gaucher
Right, Absolutely.
- [19:33]
Lynn Hoffman
And the book is called Saved by a Song, so you don't have to read the book to make the assumption that you were saved by music. And that transition and that moment that you just talked about, I honestly believe.
- [19:49]
Mary Gaucher
That to be true.
- [19:51]
Lynn Hoffman
And how. How has it saved others, I think is a big question. Yeah, I want to get into that a little, Mary, because, you know, I. I was just. When I said I was. Stopped my tract. I was thinking about you and St. Vincent's thinking about that. Re. You know, when you went to search for where your biological mom had dropped you off at St. Vincent's and then the time that you were struck by when HIV took its toll, and you really were kind of speaking for that community that was really, really not only ostracized, but lost and, like, not having a lot. There wasn't people wrapping their arms around them. There weren't people wrapping their arms around them and then talking about alcoholism itself and an addiction. Not to mention what. Of course, through home base, we'll talk about the veteran experience. So I'm throwing a lot of these in. You know, these are chapters in your book, but they're chapters in your life. In your life. And they're part of you.
- [21:05]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah.
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Lynn Hoffman
So I'm kind of wondering, when you sort of sit back and you think about this, what's the thread here? What's the commonality between all of this?
- [21:15]
Mary Gaucher
I think it doesn't make sense while you're in it, and then you start to make sense of it. It's. In retrospect. Here's what I think. I think I grabbed onto music and songs because my soul somehow intrinsically knew that I had to express things that I couldn't express any other way. And those things had a lot to do with my addiction. What caused me to be an addict at age 13? How does that happen? What happens? How does a person end up that way? And the answer is because they're in pain and they're playing doctor. They're medicating their own pain. Okay, why was I in pain? And I had to start tracing it back. And for me, all roads led to St. Vincent's the day I was born. My mother gave me up for adoption, and I spent a year at St. Vincent's before I was adopted. And in that time, my first year on Earth, I didn't have parents, and I was not held enough. I was probably not fed enough, and I ended up catatonic. And I didn't know any of this until my almost late 40s. Nobody told me that I was catatonic when I was adopted. They didn't think it was just to.
- [22:38]
Lynn Hoffman
Well, sorry, go ahead, Mary.
- [22:39]
Mary Gaucher
I didn't think it was something I should be told, so I had to trace all this myself. And using music and song as my springboard, like, I'm gonna write songs about it, gave me the courage to do it.
- [22:53]
Lynn Hoffman
Your mom said that it took a couple weeks, but she reversed that. You say catatonia, so you weren't looking left. Right. You weren't interacting with people at 11 months old, which is obviously a tough thing, a tough pill to swallow to someone to tell you that. That was you. But look what your mom. Look at the gift that she gave you.
- [23:15]
Mary Gaucher
Absolutely. That is probably, you know, the story for so many adoptive that you need to attach to someone, and without attachment, you shrivel and die as you would live as a baby. And, you know, the gift of adoption is one that I don't take lightly, and I'm always going to be grateful for that. That said, trauma of that first year and the attachment disorder it left me with were something I had to contend with, and those were mine, and I had to, as an adult, start making sense of it. And this is where music and song came in so handy, because that's where I was driven to write about that kind of real stuff. And as I worked my way through it, I started getting better and the hole in my soul started closing. And at some point, I was asked to work with Darden and songwriting with Soldiers. And I had already had a deep understanding of how transformative music and song could be around trauma from my personal story.
- [24:43]
Lynn Hoffman
Right.
- [24:43]
Ron Hirshberg
The theme, really.
- [24:44]
Lynn Hoffman
So trauma is really kind of a universal problem for kids, for adults, for civilians, for veterans. And unleashing that, opening that up is painful, but yet what joy you can bring to somebody that goes through that process. And actually, because you talk a lot about how it's a translation, it's a way to talk about things that you can't express any other way.
- [25:13]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah, Yeah. I look at it as alchemy. It's magic. You take some of the darkest days of your life and write about it in a song, and you make something beautiful out of it. That's alchemy. And here's the catch. You're not going to outrun it. You can't outrun it. It's with you. It's in you. It's in your body, it's in your brain, it's in your soul, it's in your emotional makeup. You're not going to outrun it. And so for me, the answer was to stop running and start slowly walking towards it and trying to alchemize it with music and song. I didn't know that's what I was doing. Of course, this is all in retrospect, but when I start to discuss what I've been able to do with the veterans, what we've been able to do with the veterans, the way I look at it is we're giving agency. You go from being the story to being the storyteller. The storyteller has agency. The storyteller is able to make choices and to decide how the story ends.
- [26:16]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah, I mean, you mentioned Darden Smith and Mary Judd, who started songwriting with soldiers in 2012. So now we're looking at this is 10 years ago. And that's. I met, you know, I met Darden probably in 2016. And like you and many. I was blown away by the concept. It sounded like you had the resume in a sense, because you've been there, done that, you've. You've been able to translate trauma. Now I'm going to read your Rifles and Rosary Beads song, if I may. Mirrors frighten me I don't recognize what I see. A stranger with blood on his hands. Brother, I'm not that man. Rifles and rosary beads. You hold tight, you hold on tight. You hold on to what you need. Vicodin, morphine, dreams, Rifles and rosary beads. There's a lot in that. In that one stanza.
- [27:11]
Mary Gaucher
So much.
- [27:11]
Lynn Hoffman
You wrote that with Joe Costello, Veteran.
- [27:14]
Mary Gaucher
Right.
- [27:16]
Lynn Hoffman
You remember sitting down?
- [27:17]
Mary Gaucher
I do, yeah. Joe was withdrawn, gaunt. He wasn't interacting with the group very much. He looked down a lot. He clearly was in pain. And, you know, he had written a poem called Rifles and Rosary Beads. And we talked about it and the imagery was so powerful. The visual, you know, the idea of what are you holding onto over there in Fallujah? You know, some guys are holding their rifles, some guys are holding rosary beads. And so I asked him, what were you holding onto? And he got tears in his eyes and he said, Vicodin. I said, well, I understand that we're on the same page there. I understand using medication illegally to self medicate pain and fear and grief and sorrow and separation and loneliness. We understood each other. Other.
- [28:23]
Lynn Hoffman
Did that change the dynamic?
- [28:25]
Mary Gaucher
It did. We built trust right then and there.
- [28:28]
Lynn Hoffman
Right?
- [28:28]
Mary Gaucher
And then he told me he didn't look in the mirror anymore. And that's how that ended up in the song.
- [28:35]
Lynn Hoffman
Now, talking about the mirror, it reminds me of the mask. It reminds me of. So we do some therapy at Home Base where it's mass therapy, the stuff they do at Walter Reed where you paint the inside and you paint the outside and the veteran can express how they view themselves inside and how others view them outside. And it really made me think of that when you said the following. You know, you said, songs are what this. This is what songs do best. They show our insides on the outside.
- [29:08]
Mary Gaucher
That's right.
- [29:09]
Lynn Hoffman
Humans are all in the same boat. This new vulnerability is being witnessed. And what it does, it connects that sense of self and also to each other, so that outside and inside. I was listening to you talk about that. I'm hearing the songs on the album, I'm thinking about the lyrics, but to hear you describe what they do, I think pulls it all together. And tell me about how it was when you perform that song for his comrades, for his family.
- [29:45]
Mary Gaucher
Right. That's part of the Songwriting With Soldiers program is we co write with the veteran and then we play the song in front of the group in the early evening. And when I started to play the song I'd written with Joe, he was absolutely terrified because he was fixing to be seen in a way he hadn't been seen before. He was shaking about halfway in. He was crying. It was all I could do not to cry. We almost always cry. It's part of it. You know, I'm not a therapist. I can cry if I want to. And I cry because it's so moving and because I know that what's about to happen is he's going to be embraced. The deepest fear is that he's going to be rejected. Of course. That's why he's scared. They're all scared. They're scared of being rejected. But the opposite happens. They are embraced and empathy occurs. Everyone in the room empathizes and in that moment, they're no longer alone. Someone sees them on the inside and says the magic words, me too, brother, me too. You know, he got, you know, people putting their arms around him, patting him on the back, saying, thank you, thank you, thank you. I know that feeling. I know what you're talking about. I feel that. That way it takes someone from the edge and brings them back into the middle. It's huge. Mirrors FR me don't recognize what I see the stranger with blood on his hands Brother, I'm not that man. Rifles and rosary beans? You hold on to what you need. Vibrant morphine dreams Rifles and ropes, Ros r.
- [32:02]
Ryan Mitchell
Beads.
- [32:04]
Mary Gaucher
You hold on to what you need.
- [32:11]
Lynn Hoffman
You continue to do that. Yeah. You continue to do the retreats. You mentioned also that. That great song with Beth Nielsen Chapman where you sat around with. Was it mostly wives?
- [32:27]
Mary Gaucher
We sat around with wives or spouses?
- [32:29]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah.
- [32:30]
Mary Gaucher
Yes, by spouses. EOD wives. Talking about what it's like to be married to a bomb expert.
- [32:37]
Lynn Hoffman
Oh, I didn't know that. They were all eod.
- [32:39]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah.
- [32:39]
Lynn Hoffman
So kind of a specific world within a world.
- [32:43]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah. The high risk. It's a very high risk job in all branches of the military. Explosive ordnance disposal. And being married to a bomb expert whose job every day is to dismantle bombs built to kill them, that's just a crazy Marriage, to me, that's the most intensity I've ever heard. It sounds like a pressure cooker every single day. And they're young people and they have kids and oh, my goodness. And their husbands come home different. They come home eventually, and they come home different. And so that led to this notion that there's a war after the war, and we don't really talk about it. And so that's the title of the song. I think you're referencing the war after the war.
- [33:32]
Lynn Hoffman
The war after the war is something that everyone in that room could identify with. Right. Because the struggles of transition back and. And how you reintegrate back to your life and back to your kids and your wife or your husband or your spouse and your work. How is that taking back to some of your other travels? I mean, you've traveled in so many countries, Mary, and played in every state. And you connect with people, they connect with you. They come to your shows. They also talk with you, and you talk with them and you listen. Tell me about some of the stuff with Rifles and Rosary Beads, specifically that veteran military spouse community. What comes to mind when you think about playing those live and talking with the military families during those gigs?
- [34:20]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah, I mean, I was in Texas last week. We played outside of Wimberley. A little festival at a Texas roadhouse on air conditioned, 98 degrees, full on Texas kind of thing. And after. After we played, a woman came up to the table in tears and wanted to hug me. She said, the war after the war. That's me. I get those almost every single night. When I play the songs from Rifles and Rosary Beads, there's people in the audience who have lived it. And what happens, I think, is cathartic on the surface. If you're standing there watching, it looks like there's sorrow, like it looks sad. But I think it's catharsis. I think it helps people to not feel alone, to help people to know that they're going through something a lot of other people are going through and they're not singled out. It's not unique to them. And they're not alone. They may feel alone and they may not even have anybody to talk to, but they're not alone. And all they got to do is start talking about this stuff and they'll find their community of other people. It's the secrecy and silence that kills us. So I think of it as a catharsis and an aha. And like, well, maybe I can talk about this. I think there's hope in it. But if you were to look at it and not know all that. It looks like an interaction of sadness, but it's not. It's transformative.
- [35:49]
Lynn Hoffman
That transformation can save lives. It sounds kind of, you know, it sounds out there, of course, to say that a song saves a life. Okay, here I'm actually sitting in the intensive care unit right now. Is a song going to save a life today? No, but it's going to save and restore and bring hope and change lives and save lives over time. What you've been able to do with this collection, with your albums and with your fans is really, I was getting at before, not only the veteran community. Right. This all began years ago. So that's a powerful thing.
- [36:29]
Mary Gaucher
It is.
- [36:29]
Lynn Hoffman
To save other lives.
- [36:31]
Mary Gaucher
It is. And I think it's connected to purpose. And I honestly have a theory that the ancients knew this. I think with the advent of the music business and the monetization of music as a product, we've collectively forgotten what music is for. I think the gods gave us music so we don't have to be alone. That's what harmony is, in harmony together. And I think that the ancient peoples, and not that long ago knew that we sing together to bring people home. And what are soldiers struggling with? The inability to come all the way home. They get here physically, but emotionally and spiritually they can't find their way home. And this is something that music can expedite. And I've seen it in real time. And I don't know, you know, listeners may not know this, but we've lost more of our military to suicide than we did in the 20 odd years that they were fighting in Afghanistan and in Iraq. And if we have something that can help them come home and find peace, I think we should all be engaging in that and using that as a tool to help them come home. They served us. We got to serve them. That's how I see it. You know, I was in Austin, like I said, outside of Wimberley, and we stayed in Austin last week and there's a statue of a homeless veteran on the walk by the river and soldiers have put their dog tags on it. So much homelessness and suffering and suicide and pain in the community that was of service.
- [38:10]
Lynn Hoffman
Tell me, Mary, there's a lot of service going on in your years of songwriting and connecting with people indirectly and directly. You have been saving people along the way and really giving them an opportunity to change or to heal. Not just with this innovative collaborative approach where you write with people, but obviously your story that resonates.
- [38:35]
Mary Gaucher
That's Why I talk about it. That's why I talk about adoption as trauma, when I talk about recovery from alcohol and drug addiction and the possibilities that opens for people after you get sober. You can live the life that you were put here to live. You don't have to suffer from an unlived life your whole life.
- [38:54]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah. Back to that strange fire moment. You're from a military family.
- [39:00]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah.
- [39:01]
Lynn Hoffman
And I don't think a lot of people know that.
- [39:02]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah. My dad served in Korea, and in the last days of his life, when his brain was not functioning properly at all anymore, he kept thinking he was testifying in some kind of military tribunal. He never talked about being in Korea. He was in intelligence. And he just kept in his assisted living saying, I need a yellow pad and a paper, and you give it to him. And he'd give, sir, no, sir. I cannot speak to that, sir. Like, he was a soldier again. It brought tears to my eyes. He never talked about it. The only thing I knew about my father's military service was that he wouldn't allow guns in our house.
- [39:47]
Lynn Hoffman
Your mom as a spouse, when you thought. When you wrote that song with Beth, in a sense, your mom was one.
- [39:54]
Mary Gaucher
Of those women, and I didn't know it. Yeah. So much of this is mysterious. Like you're doing something that has connections that are real, and you don't see them until after. It's so mysterious.
- [40:10]
Lynn Hoffman
Your dad. I mean, there's a. I encourage. Please, people, read this amazing book. You talk about alcoholism and you talk about your dad, and this is a whole conversation in and of itself. But. But to what extent do you. If you look back, I mean, is there a connection there to his service and.
- [40:29]
Mary Gaucher
I think so.
- [40:30]
Lynn Hoffman
Some of his own medication?
- [40:32]
Mary Gaucher
I think so. I think he experienced some kind of trauma, and it damaged him. I do. I believe that.
- [40:40]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah. Because, Mary, I mean, you mentioned something. I think this was earlier in the book. You talk about the Vietnam War, and you talk about your cousin Philip.
- [40:48]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah. Philip died young in Vietnam.
- [40:51]
Lynn Hoffman
He was 23, Army KIA. You talk about the Vietnam War, and I remember. I'm a little younger than you, but I remember Walter Cronkite, and he spanned a couple several decades, and I can hear that as well. And then you talk about your parents war, and then you talk about your own war with your dad, which is heavy stuff, obviously. But that time in your life, even though it was so hard and you left home early, there was something really powerful that gave you the tools later in life. I always think back to that. I always wonder There's a power. There's something that was in there that gave you the ability. It wasn't just being pulled over by that cop.
- [41:38]
Mary Gaucher
You know, I wish I could bottle it. I wish I could name it even. Like, why do some people get arrested for drunk driving and immediately, when they get out of jail, start drinking again? Why do some people get sober and some people just can't? Why did some people have this weird tenacity to go through being on stage and knowing you suck and knowing there's no way to get better at it? You can't get better in your living room. You got to do it in front of people and work through the stage fright. Why would I stick with it and others be unable? I don't know what that is. I think it's constitutional. I think I maybe have some just innate gifts that allowed me to keep going and to get sober. But I also think it's grace. I think there's some unmerited gift in that that you don't deserve. That there's the notion of amazing grace saved a wretch like me. I mean, I relate to that. I was a wretch. So it's ineffable in so many ways. And there's no way to talk about it without going into spiritual language, which becomes more and more ethereal and starts to sound like some sort of a religious pitch. And it's really not. It's quite practical. And there's no theology behind it.
- [43:07]
Lynn Hoffman
There's just.
- [43:08]
Mary Gaucher
There's mystery.
- [43:09]
Lynn Hoffman
There's nothing wrong with that.
- [43:10]
Mary Gaucher
I know.
- [43:11]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned Amy Ray, who was, Gosh, one of my musical heroes.
- [43:16]
Mary Gaucher
Me, too.
- [43:17]
Lynn Hoffman
You said being terrified is part of the agreement, Amy. You know, and I just. That hit me. I was actually. What was. I was doing the dishes the other day. You remember what you're doing sometimes when something. Somebody says something so prolific anyway. And then you went on to say that if going forward is the goal, fear is going to be the emotion. So I think that connects to. What you're saying, Mary, is that there's not without trepidation, there's fear here and there's risks, and it's not. You know, I have to say, there's a lot that connects to service. Our service members. You're serving in a different way. And hats off, behind you is that beautiful flag. I'm seeing two things right now. I'm seeing a proud military family member and a proud person that works with veterans. And I'm seeing pride, because I know Pride Month is coming up yeah, absolutely. Happy early Pride.
- [44:17]
Mary Gaucher
Thank you. Yeah. That's another thing I need to talk about and not. Not. Not be in the shadows about it. You know, I'm a. I'm a gay woman, and I'm an advocate for LGBTQ people. And all that I think we're asking for is respect and dignity and, you know, permission to live our lives without being assaulted or ridiculous laws being passed against our personhood. And you see a Ukrainian flag, too. I'm. I'm definitely concerned what's going on over there. I'm in awe of the courage of those people and the absolute tenacity and commitment to their democracy. I think Americans can learn a lot if we watch closely. What they're doing to save their democracy is astonishing, and I fully support their efforts.
- [45:21]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah.
- [45:22]
Mary Gaucher
So, yeah, flags are powerful symbols, and, yeah, you can. You can definitely make a statement with a flag.
- [45:29]
Lynn Hoffman
You know, my daughter actually is 14, and she. I didn't know that the Pride flag was. I think it. I think it was in the 70s that it started to be more of a part of our culture, but things have really changed since that time, so. Over 50 years.
- [45:45]
Mary Gaucher
Oh, my God. So much so.
- [45:46]
Lynn Hoffman
You're right. There's been some really amazing advancements, and some. The openness and the understanding is probably light years than it was when you started coming of age.
- [45:57]
Mary Gaucher
Oh, my God.
- [45:58]
Ben O'Keefe
Yeah.
- [45:58]
Lynn Hoffman
But at the same time, it's not going away, and we know that there's a lot of lack of understanding. How does that connect to your writing?
- [46:06]
Mary Gaucher
If anything, what's interesting to me is that when you go into music and you start to take it seriously and then you take the stage and you start building a career, you don't choose your fans. They choose you. And I figured, you know, I probably would have a fan base that was more or less predominantly gay and lesbian, and that's just not true. That's not my base at all. I connect deeply with heterosexual men who are a lot like me. My fan base looks more like a Guy Clark fan base or Townes Van Zant fan base or, you know, Kris Kristofferson or John Prine.
- [46:46]
Lynn Hoffman
One of your superheroes. Yeah.
- [46:47]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah, it's those guys. Those guys. I'm kindred with them, and my musical development was deeply influenced by them. And the people who come to see me are people who would go to those shows. So it really weirdly doesn't have a lot to do with music for me. I don't.
- [47:14]
Lynn Hoffman
And there shouldn't be an expectation that it does.
- [47:16]
Mary Gaucher
You know, I'm the one who had it, actually. I thought that's what it would be, but it's not. And I'm just grateful that I have people that come. Everybody's welcome, you know, if you can relate to what I'm doing. I'm so happy to have you there. And it's really a. A diverse group of people that come in, and I don't. You know, I don't hide who I am, but I also. That's not the nature of my songs. I don't sing about being gay.
- [47:51]
Lynn Hoffman
Right.
- [47:52]
Mary Gaucher
I don't know how to write songs about that. I write songs about being human.
- [47:58]
Ron Hirshberg
Yeah.
- [47:59]
Lynn Hoffman
So beautifully said and so. And so real. I mean, you know, what's interesting is that in a sense, you become an ally, or you not an ally. You become a conduit for all types to really, you know, if there was ever a connection. It's really like you said, those guys that may normally, you know, they may listen to Guy Clark and others and John Prine, but now they're, you know, part of the whole family. And it's a great thing. You know, it's interesting. Like, I don't have a question here, but I. When I was in College, it was 1989, and I was in Burlington, Vermont. I remember seeing the Indigo Girls. We went. We heard about. There's such a buzz around that time, obviously, right? And here I am, you know, straight dude, you know, 18 years old, mostly women. I think there was probably, like, 80% women in the audience. I'm a songwriter as well. I'm a musician. That was transformative for me. I mean, I. I'm still.
- [48:54]
Mary Gaucher
Incredible time. It was an incredible time.
- [48:57]
Lynn Hoffman
I play it for my kids. You know, it's just the other day I was like, you know, the song Secure Yourself to Heaven, Secure yourself. I think I was actually. When I was on one of those walks, when I was listening to your book, it probably triggered. Because the Indigo Girls you talked about, So I put it on Spotify, and I was just sat there. I'm like, wow.
- [49:14]
Mary Gaucher
So great.
- [49:16]
Lynn Hoffman
And their harmonies and just so what they did, as you said, I think, to Amy in your interview, something about blasting open the door for other people.
- [49:27]
Mary Gaucher
They did. It was a cultural moment. Their music came ahead of the changes that we were about to go through. They blasted down the door, and Amy shocked me when she said, but we hated ourself. And we were in the closet. Like, it didn't matter, did it? It happened anyway, because the music again, is always music, and song is always ahead of the songwriter. There's a wisdom in the art form that transcends the individuals. And so when, you know, like when you reference that I've saved lives with this practice, I would push back a little and say, well, I was a midwife in the process of salvation, but music and song saved the lives.
- [50:19]
Ron Hirshberg
Yeah, a midwife.
- [50:22]
Lynn Hoffman
You were the mid songwriter?
- [50:25]
Mary Gaucher
Midwriter. Yes, something like that. Because it's not unique to me. Anybody who understands the art form can do it, can bear witness and help expedite that kind of experience that pulls somebody from the edge back in.
- [50:39]
Lynn Hoffman
Well, what did you say? Don't leave music and songwriting up to the professionals.
- [50:45]
Mary Gaucher
Right.
- [50:45]
Lynn Hoffman
I love that.
- [50:46]
Mary Gaucher
Well, and what I'm saying there is that if all we focus on is monetization and bottom line and turn it into McDonald's, where everybody's having McNuggets. The experience that I describe in the book doesn't happen because it's a product to be sold, more than a mystery.
- [51:08]
Lynn Hoffman
To be approached with respect and more than the process. And that gets to the collaborative model because with Darden Smith and others we've, you know, work with. You did this amazing job with us with the Frontline songs and all the stuff you do with veterans. You can write one on one with somebody, which is beautiful. Like you did with Joe, right? Joe Costello and others. And there's a. To me, there's a certain. There's a bond there that you can create and you can that. Well, let me ask you, what's the difference, Mary, when you are one to one with anybody, whether they're going through any type of trauma and you versus that group and that cohesion, the group.
- [51:58]
Mary Gaucher
Is there to witness what happened one on one in the workshops. So one on one, you create trust and you bear witness in non judgment and you take their story and turn it into their song. And the group then is the witness witness. And the writing of the song is only 50% of the deal that causes transformation. Then you have to bring it to a group of witnesses who then bear witness and see the inside of that person that you've written with. And the witnesses then experience empathy and embrace that person. And they are brought to a new place of self acceptance and understanding of their own humanity, that they're not different than everyone else.
- [52:46]
Ron Hirshberg
I'm like you, brother.
- [52:47]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah, me too, man.
- [52:48]
Lynn Hoffman
I'm like you, sister.
- [52:49]
Mary Gaucher
Me too, man.
- [52:50]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah, yeah. Mary, you've been so gracious. You're on the road, you're doing a lot of things. What's next for you? What's hot On Mary's mind now.
- [52:59]
Mary Gaucher
Yeah, we're hitting the road. I got a new record coming out June 3rd, and so I've got tour dates and tour dates and tour dates, and it's an exciting time. Here we go again. Record number 11 is going out to the world. Yes.
- [53:13]
Lynn Hoffman
I will not make a Spinal Tap reference, I promise. But 11, beautiful. So we heard some of the music. It's great. What do you excite?
- [53:22]
Ron Hirshberg
Is there a theme to any of.
- [53:23]
Lynn Hoffman
This album, or is it sort of purely old school? Bunch of great songs.
- [53:28]
Mary Gaucher
Well, what we've been through in the Pandemic has made its appearance there, for sure. And love. The importance of love and the intensity of what we've all been through. You know, we've all lost a lot of people. The numbers are staggering. And so there's grief and there's loss and there's love. And so that's the nature of it.
- [53:55]
Lynn Hoffman
And how can we all really identify as an understatement? And how can we heal with some of that? As you're, you know, you're the spiritual leader, Mary, you're sort of helping us get through that every day. So we can't wait to hear the whole album. Thank you, Mary. Thank you so much for your time.
- [54:14]
Ron Hirshberg
And for all you do and for.
- [54:15]
Lynn Hoffman
Your, you know, you're serving those who served and many others. So thank you.
- [54:19]
Mary Gaucher
Thank you, Ron. Thank you, Lucy. Appreciate y' all doing this. Take care, y' all. It's dark enough to see star.
- [54:29]
Ron Hirshberg
Dark.
- [54:30]
Mary Gaucher
Enough to see the star Dark enough to see the light in an ocean Black and deep in the middle of the night As I hold on to your love like those lights from up above I've drifted out so far it's dark enough to see the star I've been carried out so far it's dark enough to see the star.
- [55:29]
Lynn Hoffman
Thank you.
- [55:30]
Ron Hirshberg
To our guest, Mary Gaucher, for your talents, your support and service over the years. For so many. Mary's book, Saved by A Song, is one you should really read or listen to on audible. I listened to Mary's book and was entranced with not only the storyteller coming from her own voice, but the fact that each chapter is punctuated by a unique song. These songs are really chapters of her life with a common thread of resilience and recovery. And, of course, check out the new album, Dark Enough to See the Stars, which is available right now. Speaking of songwriting with soldiers, if you've not listened already, we have an episode called Warrior Healer that was released February 17, 2020, that highlights a song co written by one of our veteran alumni at Home Base, Air Force veteran Blair Moran and James House. So Lastly, I have two podcasts to recommend with Mary Gaucher. We met in 2018 on a podcast I was co hosting called above the Basement. If you're interested in a show that covers the lives and stories of musicians, check out the show, produced and hosted by my friend Chuck Clow, which has over 200 episodes in the Vault. The episode we refer to in today's conversation is number 81 in February 2018. Also, be sure to check out Mary's conversation on the November 2021 episode of Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell's podcast, Broken Record. Home Base Nation is the official podcast.
- [56:52]
Lynn Hoffman
For the Home Base program for veterans and military families. Follow Home Base on social media at homebaseprogram. Please listen and follow us on Apple, iHeart, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [57:04]
Ron Hirshberg
This episode episode was produced, edited and engineered by Lucy Little. I'm Ron Hirshberg.
- [57:09]
Lynn Hoffman
Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time.
- [57:14]
Ben O'Keefe
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- [58:14]
Ebony
Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebony, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebony and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect Podcast Network. Tune in on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
- [58:43]
Ben O'Keefe
High Key.
- [58:44]
Ryan Mitchell
Looking for your next obsession?
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Ebony
Listen to High Key, a new weekly.
- [58:47]
Ryan Mitchell
Podcast hosted by Ben o' Keefe, Ryan Mitchell and Yvie. Oddly, we got a lot of things to get into. We're gonna gush about the random stuff we can't stop thinking about. I am High Key. Going to lose my mind over all things Cowboy Carter. I know, girl. The way she about to yank my bank account. Correct. And one thing I really love about this is that she is celebrating her daughters. Oh, I know. Listen to High key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [59:16]
Benedict Townsend
Do you remember Vine? It changed the Internet forever and it vanished in its prime. I'm Benedict Townsend, and this is Vine. Six seconds that changed the world. The untold story of genius, betrayal, and the app that died so that TikTok could thrive. From overnight stars to the fall that no one saw coming, we're breaking down what made vine iconic. Listen to vine on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [59:46]
Ebony
Stay informed, empowered and ahead of the curve with the BI N News. This hour podcast updated hourly to bring you the latest stories shaping the black community. From breaking headlines to cultural milestones, the Black Information Network delivers the facts, the voices and the perspectives that matter 247 because our stories deserve to be heard. Listen to the BI N News this Hour podcast on the IHOP iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.