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Music Saved Me : From Performing to Healing with Doctor Tasha Golden
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- [00:00]
Dr. Tasha Golden
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
Matt Rogers
This is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. JBL Tour Pro 3 earbuds are for those who don't conform to the standard. Yeah, I mean if you want to get into some touchscreen technology, how about the smart charging case Clear sound? These are not standard things. You're only going to get them with the JBL Tour Pro 3 baby. And I love the sound of JBL and goes. These earbuds are packed with innovation because you can't stand out following others. Touchscreen Smart charging case for one touch control, instant EQ customization, true adaptive noise canceling and the one of a kind audio transmitter which can plug and play with everything from game consoles to in flight entertainment. What more could you want? First doesn't follow grab a pair@jbl.com new school year, new routines and somehow your calendar is already full. When life gets hectic, cauliflower's got your back. We make the food you crave made better for you. Like thin and crispy cauliflower crust pizza pizzas, all natural chicken tenders and nostalgic pizza snacks ready in minutes in something the whole family can agree on. Caulifow is available in freezer aisles nationwide. Visit eatcolipower.com to find a store near you.
- [01:18]
Dr. Tasha Golden
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- [02:51]
Lynn Hoffman
MUSIC SAVED ME welcome back to Music Saved Me. I'm Lynn Hoffman and today we are diving into an extraordinary story that bridges the passion of music with the precision science. Our guest today is Dr. Tasha Golden, a former singer songwriter with the acclaimed band Ellery, whose music career ended due to severe burnout. And from that loss, she forged a new path as a behavioral scientist and the first director of research at the International Arts and Mind Lab at Johns Hopkins. Recognized as one of 2024's Fierce 50 by Fierce Pharma, Dr. Golden now leads groundbreaking work in Arts on Prescription, including America's first program, Culture rx. And she's also a lead author of Arts on Prescription, a field guide for U.S. communities. And today we'll explore how music both broke and rebuilt her and how she's now using science and art to harness creativity for healing and innovation. Lucky us we get to spend this time with you. Dr. Golden, thank you so much for joining us today on Music Save Me. I've been waiting to talk to you about all of this stuff, so thank you.
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Dr. Tasha Golden
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
- [04:05]
Lynn Hoffman
If you wouldn't mind, can you take us back to your early days with the band Ellery and, and tell us a little bit about what music meant to you sort of as a young artist living the dream of being in a rock band?
- [04:19]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Well, you know, I'll go back even further than that. I started writing songs when I was really young because I found, you know, without the music, I found that as a little girl, I didn't necessarily have much of a voice. People weren't necessarily interested in hear bring my opinions in the particular place where I was at the time where I was being brought up. But I noticed very early on that when I sang, people paid attention. And it started to become clear that if I wrote my own songs, if I could put my ideas, my stories, the things that were important to me into those songs. It was sort of like this workaround, a way that I could find power in a community and in a society that I otherwise didn't really feel that I had power, very much power and voice and, and that's kind of how I started writing, and that effect of music in my life really is a through line as far as music's ability to allow me to say things that I found that I couldn't say otherwise, to share things with audiences. You know, there's lots of things that have happened in my life that I have shared with hundreds of people at an. At a show before I had ever told a single friend about it, you know, and I found that that was very true for my audiences as well. People coming to music for the same. That it was allowing them to discover something about themselves that they couldn't share otherwise or hadn't realized about themselves otherwise. And so when you ask about living the dream, there were so many cool things about our career, like being able to travel the world, the country, see so many different things, meet so many different people, work with just absolutely astonishingly great musicians. And I think, though, that my favorite part was always just that seemingly mysterious sense of that music made something possible that wasn't possible otherwise. This kind of, like I said, a sort of workaround for our limitations and our norms and, you know, a way for people and my. For myself to find a different path where we could find power and voice and opportunity.
- [06:16]
Lynn Hoffman
It's pretty exciting stuff. I mean, when you're a young person and you join a band, like you said, travel the world. But I'm curious when this is kind of a difficult. I mean, juxtaposition. And I want to start off by saying that having severe burnout, from what I read, really just ended your music career. And I was curious if you could describe that experience and the moment that you realized it was over. Because I myself suffered from burnout. I know a lot of people did. And it's a really tough moment where you either just throw it away or you turn it into something positive.
- [06:56]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Yeah. I mean, at the time, I didn't realize how common this was for people in the music industry. It seems to me now I can't imagine how I wouldn't have known that. I did know that depression and anxiety were very common among my music friends. We had lots of conversations about those things, but it wasn't something that I knew how to talk about or that I. I just felt anomalous. And I felt like, you know, this was something that was happening to me because I wasn't. Maybe I wasn't passionate enough or I wasn't. You know, there was these ways that you start to blame yourself for an experience you're having because you. You don't realize that it's actually a Very common experience and you don't necessarily have words for it. And for me, I think I would describe that burnout as, you know, death by a thousand cuts. Like it just was over years and years of, you know, hundreds of shows, nights, who knows where you're going to be that night, where you're going to be sleeping, who you're going to be talking to and just a kind of unpredictability of it. I, much later in my life was diagnosed as like neurodivergence. There's all kinds of things that make so much sense now that like that unpredictability was, was really hard on me in ways that I didn't even realize. I, I always thought of myself as this really impulsive like artiste, like just go explore the world like you know, come what may. And actually it turns out that is not the way that my brain thrives. But I didn't know that at the time. And we recorded our most ambitious project one year with a Grammy winning producer, lots of amazing studio musicians working with us, songs that I really believed in. I was just so excited to put that record out. And we got home from recording it, we were going to do a short tour to help promote it before it released. And you know, one night in December we were coming back from, I think it was our last show of the year, our last clan show of the year. And I just was, you know, curled over in the passenger seat of our vehicle just sobbing and I. All that I could say, you know, I remember turning to my partner, like my partner in life, but also my music partner. This was his dream, also his job also, you know, and I said something like, I don't want to do anything other than this. This is all that I've ever wanted to do and I can't do this anymore. I'm just, I'm exhausted. I, I don't know how to like, I, I just reached this point where I couldn't imagine waking up and doing it again and then again and then again. I just, I just, I wound up going to bed and staying there for weeks. I was just, you know, it felt like I had been exhausted for years by that point. And it, it was something that I kept trudging through like expecting that maybe the next. And I think career musicians will relate to this or career creatives of many kinds that like the next milestone, the next opportunity is going to change things just enough to where maybe you'll be relax a little bit, you'll get a little bit break and you just keep rounding the Next corner and the next corner, the next corner. And I just kept doing that, expecting it to change until I just couldn't move anymore. Right. And yeah, one of those days in bed, it became very clear to me that, yeah, I was definitely not going to be able to tour again. I assumed that I would still be doing full time music in some way, but I knew that something had fundamentally and sort of irrevocably changed.
- [10:14]
Lynn Hoffman
Two questions as a follow up to that. One, what did your partner. What was his response? And two, can you describe what neurodivergent means? I heard you say that. I'm just curious. I don't know what it means, but it sounds extremely interesting.
- [10:31]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Yeah, it's sort of an umbrella term for all kinds of, you know, for people's brains who just work differently from what we would call typical, like a neurotypical brain. So it can encompass things like adhd, autism, you know, also some mental illnesses, OC and things like that. So it's kind of like an umbrella term for describing somebody whose brain functions differently. It's not necessarily pathological, like something is wrong with it, but it's a brain that functions different. A neurotype that is, you know, that works differently than what we've kind of commonly recognized as. That's what we would expect. Or that's kind of like society is designed around one kind of neurotype and this one is different.
- [11:10]
Lynn Hoffman
That's so interesting though, because sometimes people walk around and they think, you know, what's wrong with me? I am so different. I think so differently, or I do things so different than everyone else. And you're actually not alone.
- [11:22]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a, it's amazing to, to explore that so late in life. And of course, like young people now might get a diagnosis earlier. When I was young, it wasn't something that people were talking about as much. So it took a lot of years for me to come across people who are very similar to me, who are like, oh, this is my experience. And I'm like, wait, hold up, what are you talking about? So, yeah, really, really, really helpful to explore those things. And my partner's response. Oh, Lynn. To his eternal credit, he was just concerned and like, oh, okay, well, we, if this is, this is what's going on, we got to change something. You know, he had no idea what that would be. We thankfully had some good friends who were sort of like, you know, all that I knew was at that moment was that I can't do this anymore. I didn't know what the next thing was, I didn't know what that meant or like, what. And some friends kind of gave us this helpful language. They were like, what if you take like a six month sabbatical, Tasha? And it was just like such a helpful framing, just that word of like, oh, some time set aside to do something different than this thing that I cannot do. Okay? And just like that framing of it helped my brain and my partner's brain make sense of this. Okay, let's take six months and then we'll decide. And by the way, we hadn't put that record out yet, so this was also six months of like, we'll just hold onto that record and not release it for another six months. It felt bananas, but it was also so helpful to have that. And then my partner was. Was able to find other work to support the two of us, which is such a privilege to me and has always been one of the great gifts of my life, one of the great gifts that he gave to me, you know, to. As somebody who had always, like, kind of like, oh, I founded this band, this is my work and I'm doing it. And for somebody to step in and say, like, no, figure. Figure this out, heal up, and we'll. We'll take things on the other side of that. We'll know what to do.
- [13:13]
Lynn Hoffman
Don't let that one get away for sure.
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Dr. Tasha Golden
Right, Right.
- [13:18]
Lynn Hoffman
Talk about someone in your corner. That's pretty amazing, especially with everything that you had built up in that dark period that you found yourself in after losing music, so to speak. At that point, what. What kept you going and gave you hope that you were going to move on to that next thing, whatever that may be.
- [13:38]
Dr. Tasha Golden
I think a couple different things. I have always thought of my life in terms of a story. People talk about sometimes wanting to find their purpose. I had always had this mentality of, oh, my purpose is something that I'm creating. It's always evolving. Your story is not something that you're not following a map that somebody handed to you. You're making up the map as you go. And that can be very unset in many ways for a lot of people. You're sort of just like accepting endless uncertainty. But for me, in that moment, what was helpful to me was that I felt like a story was ending. And that just meant that I knew that there was another story. And to be really clear, this was like the most awful thing that had ever happened to me in my life. So I'm not saying it like, oh, one story's gone. Let's Just find the next one. Like, it was awful. But I did have this underlying sense that, okay, this must mean that there's a different story to tell and I just have to stay curious about what that might be like. Here was one story I was telling the story of a singer songwriter who's touring and for a living and things like that. I wonder what the next story is going to be. And I had no idea. And it was just an absolutely terrifying gap in my understanding of my future. Right. But I did understand it as a story and that was such a help to me. And it's part of what I've researched and how I help other people now is understanding their work as a story that, you know, that isn't done until they are. Right.
- [15:04]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah, I love that.
- [15:05]
Dr. Tasha Golden
I will say the other thing that helps so much is poetry. I found myself reading Mary Oliver all the time and trying to spend some time in nature and with animals. Like just something that felt grounding and real and present. Those things were incredibly important.
- [15:21]
Lynn Hoffman
Yes, they are. And wow, talk about a transformation though. You took the love of music and artistry and you shifted to just a PhD researcher studying music and well being and creating programs that are in major universities and hospital studies. So can you. What was that shift like? When did you know that was the direction that you were going to go? And then what led you to where you are now?
- [15:50]
Dr. Tasha Golden
That came very slowly. I had a mentor in the middle of like the darkest time of my depression after getting off the road who said, like, I think that you might like academia, like it's really predictable and like you could study writing. And I was like, you know what? Sure, okay. I applied to this master's program in creative writing. I sent them CDs, like lyric sheets. I didn't expect to get in because I didn't think of myself as a poet per se, or like I was a songwriter. And that wasn't what they did.
- [16:23]
Lynn Hoffman
You know, that's such a great idea that you would. That you would do that.
- [16:27]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Yeah, yeah. So I then I got in and I was like, oh, what the heck? Like, what am I going to do? This is like a two year commitment or whatever. And I got into that program and quickly realized that I was so much more of a nerd than I ever thought that I was. Like, my favorite aspects of this process was like the research. A lot of my peers who were wonderful poets were like, oh, the research was like this kind of hoop they had to jump through because they really just wanted to do workshops and things like that, like, oh, no, this is, this is it. This is like, I, I love this. Let's dig in some more. And I knew then that I wanted to keep doing research to answer my questions. But the questions that I had were, like, I said about, you know, how, how and why does music and the arts have the effects that they have? Why are we able to, you know, I was once talking about it as like, committing social heresies, like say things that you're not supposed to say to people you're not supposed to talk to. But the arts lets you do all of that. Why, like, why would that be possible? And I spent a few years trying to figure out what field that belongs in. Is that psychology? Is it sociology? I wound up in public health, which is just never my plan. I could tell you more of a story about. I started my PhD in rhetoric. I wound up in this circuitous way in public health, and I'm grateful for all the time, because public health, really. Somebody that I met when I first started my PhD program in rhetoric was like, why are you not researching this in public health? She was in public health. Health. And I was like, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't really know what y' all do. I'm like, I'm a musician, I'm a poet. I, I don't know what public health even is. I've never been in a STEM field. Like, what.
- [18:11]
Lynn Hoffman
But it makes sense.
- [18:13]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Yeah, because it's everything. Like, what is what contributes to the public's health can literally be every. It's everything. And it was such a, A cool way for a thinker like me, who always kind of takes this systems perspective and a meta perspective, like to be able to look at music and the arts from this zoomed out way of how is this affecting human beings and what does that mean for our systems and our structures, whether that's a health care system, but also our schools, our communities, our general policies. What can we learn about how the arts affect us and how can we use that to make a better world? Just always an exciting intersection.
- [18:51]
Lynn Hoffman
It is, it's very exciting. Before I want to get more into how it all works. But first, I'm curious, was first how did your experiences with music and healing sort of shape the research? And also, did you get any pushback from academia in any of this? Because, you know, they kind of. I can only imagine the pushback you may have gotten on it, you know.
- [19:16]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Yeah, okay. So, yes, my personal experiences really informed the research. Because my research question was, was kind of different than what other people in the intersection of music and health were talking about. Like a lot of times when I told people that I research intersections like arts and public health or something like that, they immediately think of things like music therapy or art therapy, dance therapy, which is really great. Those are wonderful things. It's not really what I particularly study or engage with with communities, although I have many fine colleagues who do. But my particular research question was a little, was unique in the field and it was more about why do people communicate different things via the arts than we do otherwise? What is the arts role in communication? How does it change what we're thinking, what we think of to say? It's not just that it changes what we say, but it changes what we think and then whether we choose to share that and how we choose to share it and with whom we choose to share it. That's fascinating. What the heck? And my dissertation question wound up being around what does that mean for health research? If there are things that people are only telling me, as a singer songwriter, after a show in a random city in the US that that story of that person's suicide ideation or abuse history is something that they are not telling their doctor or their therapist, but that doctor or therapist, I guarantee you, thinks that they're working with adequate information about their patient or their client. And they don't know what they don't know. Right. And so I was just really curious around. Okay, if it's true that the arts allow us to share things that we cannot share otherwise, then how do we integrate that as a kind of data collection process? How do we learn from that data to change our, to improve our healthcare, to change our systems, to change what we know about our populations and their experiences? Because there's so much that we don't know if we're not, that's okay. That's the easiest way I can lay it out. If you're not paying attention to the arts, there is a lot that you do not know, just inevitably. And if you open, if you open your, yourself to the, to the information that can come via the arts, you're going to have more accurate information, better information. And so to answer your question about pushback, I actually did not get any. It was such a kind of intuitive, inarguable point, like just set up that way. But like if there are things that people are only sharing in the context of the art, then what might those things be? Why might that be? And then how are we going to integrate that into the way that we typically do health and medicine. And you know, I was able to show that we got a lot more information from arts based methods than we did from traditional surveys. They were also more trauma responsive. We were able to share the information in much cooler ways with our communities. It went much further than just if you write some kind of boring report, right?
- [22:05]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah.
- [22:06]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Yeah. So yeah, there was a lot of, there was a lot of openness to that work. And I also credit the institution that I was in which had a big focus on how we on equity and on increasing our ability to connect with people who have historically not been heard or included. And that was important to them.
- [22:27]
Matt Rogers
We'll be right back with more of the Music Safety Podcast. This is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. JBL Tour Pro3 earbuds are for those who don't conform to the standard. Yeah, I mean if you want to get into some touchscreen technology, how about the smart charging case? Clear. These are not standard things. You're only gonna get them with the JBL Tour Pro 3, baby. And I love the sound of JBL when it goes. These earbuds are packed with innovation because you can't stand out by following others. Touchscreen Smart charging case for one touch control, instant EQ customization, True adaptive noise canceling and the one of a kind audio transmitter which can plug and play with everything from game consoles to in flight entertainment. The audio transmitter also allows for JBL Spatial360 sound that takes any audio and turns it into a 300 tasty immersive experience. What more could you want first doesn't follow. Grab a pair@jbl.com new school year, new routines and a calendar that somehow filled up overnight. When life gets hectic, the last thing you want to do is cook from scratch. With all of that cleanup for those busy days, Cauliflower's got your back. Cauliflower makes the food you crave, but made better for you. The best part? You don't have to sacrifice taste or time so you can honor your cravings without compromising. Think thin, crispy cauliflower crust pizzas, all natural chicken tenders coated in cauliflower and crowd pleasing nostalgic pizza snacks. Clean ingredients always ready in minutes, absolutely full of flavor 100%. Answering the what's for dinner? Question has never been easier. Cauliflower's products are available in freezer aisles nationwide. Visit eatcaulypower.com where to buy to find a store near you. You don't just live in your home, you live in your neighborhood as well. So when you're shopping for a home, you want to know as much about the area around it as possible. Luckily, homes.com has got you covered. Each listing features a comprehensive neighborhood guide from local experts. Everything you'd ever want to know about a neighborhood, including the number of homes for sale, transportation, local amenities, cultural attractions, unique qualities, and even things like median lot size and in noise. Score homes.com, we've done your homework. Run a business and not thinking about radio, Think again. Because more people are listening to the radio and IHEART today than they were 20 years ago. And only iHeart broadcast radio connects with more Americans than TV, digital, social, any other media, even twice as many teens than TikTok. And that reach means everything. Just think about the universal marketing formula. The number of consumers who hear your message times the response rate equals the results. Now let's get those results growing for your business. Radio's here now more than ever and iheart's leading the way. Think radio can help your business. Think iheart Streaming, Podcasting and radio where the reach is real. Let us show you@iheartadvertising.com that's iheartadvertising.com or call 844-844 iheart one more time. Just call 844-844, iheart and get radio working for you. What's up everybody? This is Snax from the Trap Nerds Podcast and we're bringing you the Horror every week all October long. Kicking off this month I'll be bringing you all my greatest fear inducing horror games from Resident Evil to Silent Hill. Me and Tony bringing backfire team on Left 4 Dead 2 and we just gonna be going over some of the greats. Also in October we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movies and figure out why black people always gotta die first. The Umbral reliquary invites any and all fooling brave enough to peruse its many curiosities. But take heed, all sales are final. Weekly Horror side Quest written and narrated by yours truly with a full episode read and a commentary special. And we will cap it off with Horror Movie Battle Royale J vs. Freddy Michael Myers vs. The Alien Thing with the little Tongue Monster. October. We're doing it Halloween style. Listen to the Trap Nurse Podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back to the Music Saved Me podcast.
- [26:53]
Lynn Hoffman
Today you are a leader on Arts on Prescription which I think is is amazing. I think it's amazing that an artist would come up and just blow away all of these medical minds of things that could be without prescribing drugs as a source, more of arts experiences that work as a medical intervention, which is astounding to me. How does prescribing music or arts work? Can you give us sort of like an example or.
- [27:27]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Yeah, yeah. It works in so many different ways. I will say it sounds like a really novel idea, but this is. This kind of thing has been going on in other countries for decades at this point.
- [27:38]
Lynn Hoffman
Why doesn't that surprise me, by the way?
- [27:40]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Right. Yeah. People have been prescribing sort of like local community experiences, whether that's joining a choir or gardening or volunteering or things like that to benefit their health. And in the US We've done versions of that, like we do have. In most communities, there are physicians who will refer patients to things like housing assistance or support groups or just basically things in a community that they know will help their patient that aren't typical pharmacological interventions or a physical therapist intervention or something like that. Just things that they know that their patient needs and it's in the community. And really, rsan prescription is just adding some more tools to that tool belt. Right. Like, oh, if there are things in your community that can benefit people's health, there is no reason to not integrate that into your healthcare process. Right. Like there's the not integrating. It would not be scientific. Right. Like, there's no reason to not do that other than, of course, how are you going to fund it? Who's going to pay for those kinds of logistic questions that do cause those are barriers in some communities. But we do see the first statewide arts and prescription program in the US Is in Massachusetts called Culture rx. And across the state, a lot of different arts entities, whether it's different museums, playhouses, even the park system. In Massachusetts, dance student studios have partnered with a variety of different health providers. That could be a chain of pediatric offices, some people who are doing work with Parkinson's patients, young people, whatever the specific health provider was trying to do, they were partnered with arts organizations to come up with new ways to benefit those patients. And so, yeah, we saw in the evaluation of that program and in many other programs across the US that have come up since then, see people being prescribed experiences in their community, arts culture and nature in order to benefit their health, their mental health, their physical health, their quality of life. And typically with a prescription, the patient does not have to pay for that experience. It's provided for Free.
- [29:46]
Lynn Hoffman
It's amazing. And how much does focus have to do with this? Focusing your mind on something in the world of art or experience that type of thing?
- [29:56]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Oh, it's a great question. Yeah. It really just depends on what the outcomes are that you're looking for. Certainly if somebody is. We've heard from some therapists, for example, that if they have a patient who's kind of stuck in a way of life, they want to get past them, but they're not sure how. Or maybe there's a lot of rumination, then. Yeah, some kind of novel experience that interrupts that and jolts them out of that and maybe helps them to have a different thought about something can be really helpful. So, yeah, sometimes it is a change of focus combined with some other things or certainly stress reduction. People who are experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety to be able to. If you're taking a class that's maybe. Maybe you're learning glass blowing, I don't know, or pottery, or you're writing a song or a poem, then that. That time that you're spending doing that, we have seen that that can lower the heart rate, lower blood pressure, lower cortisol, and yeah. Help people feel in general that they have had a kind of soothing experience.
- [30:53]
Lynn Hoffman
I would have to say doing this podcast is it for me, for sure. I have to focus all of my crazy brains going in a million directions all the time. And when I do that, this, I feel very grounded, especially when I get to talk to lovely people like yourself. I love that it started in Massachusetts. That's where I was born and raised. So another wonderful thing that comes out of there. I also spoke to a veteran who said to me that when he would take his archery courses, when he came home from battle after, it was pretty tough experience. That pull, you know, know, those eight seconds they would hold the bow back to focus on the target was so calming. And then when. When that person found music, they realized, wow, that eight seconds turned into like eight minutes and then eight hours and real realizing that doing things that are, you know, within the arts and experience artful experiences like that were really helpful. So.
- [31:56]
Dr. Tasha Golden
That'S such a great example. There's been so many of these arts and prescription programs that have been initiated for veterans, specifically a veteran program in Florida and Georgia and kind of like all over the country. And there's a lot of programs that are like this, that don't call themselves this. Right. Like your friends might. A program might be an example of this, that a program that has connected veterans, for example, or college students or whatever the case might be with a specific kind of arts program for their well being. But they might not think of themselves as quote unquote, arts on prescription, or it might not be functioning in quite the same way, but they've been doing it for a long time. And it's always interesting to hear from organizations all over of how they've approached this work and how they're connecting it with people's health.
- [32:41]
Lynn Hoffman
It's very exciting. Now as a part of Culture rx, which by the way, is America's first arts prescription program from yours truly, which is just. Congratulations on that. What were you doing? Were the most surprising findings that you found with that?
- [32:57]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Oh, well, first I have to say I was so glad to evaluate that program, but I have to credit my amazing friends at Mass Cultural Council for their work kind of ideating around this and coming up with the structure for it, which was just very courageous of them and has led to so much great work across the country. But yeah, surprising findings we did in a way because based on the research around arts impacts on health, we did expect to see, see certain kinds of things like, oh, people who were being prescribed this experience because they were lonely might have made some more connections. And we saw that people who are prescribed this experience because of great stress or depression might see an alleviation of those symptoms. And we did see that. What was surprising was our responses from the healthcare providers themselves who told us that they were getting benefits from the existence of this program. And you might be thinking like, oh, maybe they went to the play or they went to the museum. The experience, no, the experience of being able to prescribe these kinds of things to their patients was so enlivening for them. It felt so good for them, especially at a time right after Covid where there was a lot of moral injury and a lot of kind of despair and a lot of people feeling like, I do not have enough tools to really do right by my patients. And I'm stuck in the idea that you could have something like some physicians said, like we're used to telling people, you need to cut back on this, you need to stop doing this, you need to start doing this. And they said this was a chance to be like, here's this thing that you love and are interested in. Go do it. And that felt so good for them. One physician said, this feels like prescribing beauty. And they talked about the amazing reactions that they got from their patients. And so, yeah, we expected physicians to use it and be, be glad about it because we, you know, we had heard things in advance from them about how they would use this and why it would be useful to them, but we did not expect that kind of emotional response to it. And I'm always thinking about those unexpected findings are sometimes the most fascinating parts of research, but also what that tells us about how integrating the arts benefits not only our patients, but also our systems and our providers and has these ripple effects that we might not expect.
- [35:19]
Lynn Hoffman
Absolutely. Now, some for someone suffering from depression or anxiety right now, can you share a specific example, say or guidance on how an arts prescription might help someone with that depression or anxiety?
- [35:35]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Well, one of the main things that we have found in the research is that it is really dependent on the person that there is not a universal activity that has universal results. There is. What matters the most is that you are interested in the work, interested in the activity, interested in the pursuit, whatever it might be. So that personal interest has to be valued. So for yourself, if you're kind of like thinking about prescribing something for yourself, you might think of like what is something that you're interested in but you haven't given yourself time for, or what's a song that you love to hear, but you know what, you haven't heard it in several days or maybe several months. Do you want to put that on? So there's a connection between your interest and curiosity as a human and the well being benefits that you get. And then of course, you know some things that are probably intuitive to people. You know, there are some kinds of music that can lead to rumination and you might not want to go down that path. But then we also know that there are types of music that when you need to cry, will help you cry, will help you feel your grief. And it is helpful to move through that. So it can be helpful sometimes to have some guidance as far as, okay, when does this turn into me just sitting in, in a negative feeling in a way that's not actually helpful to me and when is this helping me move through something? And oftentimes we can tap into that. We know for ourselves whether we're moving through something or moving into it and staying there, right?
- [37:01]
Lynn Hoffman
Yes, that's for sure.
- [37:03]
Dr. Tasha Golden
And if you need more energy, of course these are some ways that we all self medicate. Like if you have to do a workout or clean your house, you might turn on a certain kind of song that energizes you. And that's real. There's, you know, measurable impacts of that. So if that's something that you feel inclined to do, like, use it more intentionally, use it more mindfully. Like, oh, I'm feeling just like bored and down. Okay, turn on some. Turn on some music. If you haven't thought to do that, it can be helpful for you. And that's true of like, not just music, but other things that energize you and that make you curious and interested in in the world. These are things that the arts and culture in general offer us that we don't always purposefully tap into for our health.
- [37:39]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah, you know, you just got me with that gym thing because there isn't anybody that I know, not even. I'm a friend of mine in Georgia. She's up actually in Massachusetts. She is a fitness trainer full time. Like she does it every day and has to do it because she teaches classes. And I can't even imagine as just someone sitting at home with maybe like a treadmill that is more of like a clothing rack. How do you. What. Is there any specific type of music or something that you would suggest to get you in that mood? Mood specifically?
- [38:13]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Oh, no, I have the kinds of things that are a go to for me. Things that feel like a kind of like a steady drum beat that's at a march tempo or higher. Some of these things kind of feel like they're almost universal. Like something that really gets you going, but it's truly different for everybody. Some people will turn on something that for me would feel soothing and they're just like ready to go. Right. So it's again, like giving yourself permission to tap into. Well, you know, what does inspire me or feel energizing like that. And then here's the thing, if you don't know, here's the permission slip to do your own experimenting. Like put on some different things and just notice the emotion, notice the heart rate, notice what you feel like you want to do. Or like, oh, I really want to turn that off. Oh, that's interesting too. Why was it. Was it too sad? Was it too boring? You know, and just being able to learn about your own tastes and how those might be useful to you. You.
- [39:05]
Lynn Hoffman
Yeah. And also stopping procrastination, which I think goes along with. What was that that you said you were diagnosed with?
- [39:14]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Oh, I'm neurodivergent. It's not a diagnosis in itself, but is that part of it?
- [39:18]
Lynn Hoffman
Would you say that the procrastinating. What is it about a creative mind that constantly procrastinates?
- [39:25]
Dr. Tasha Golden
It certainly can be for some neurod. Neurodivergent folks. I tend to be a little bit the opposite and dive in. And then, no surprise, I could burn the candle at both ends, just wanting to do all the time. But yeah, certainly it's a kind of. It can be traced to perfectionism. It can be traced to, you know, that sense of, oh, there's. Sorry. My brain was like, I'm going to give you, like, we'll do whole pow. We could do a whole podcast on procrastination.
- [39:53]
Lynn Hoffman
I bet we could. Is that when you're using both sides of your brain too much, or is that kind of when you're cursed with having both brain sides working?
- [40:02]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Oh, that's an interesting question. I'm not sure that there's a connection there, but I do think that people who procrastinate are kind of having competing priorities in their own brains. And this is important, but this is also important. And there is some connection as well. Procrastination can be caused by lots of different things, by the way, but one of them can also be early signs of burnout. That your body knows that you need to be resting. Then you're telling it to do this thing, and it's like, I really don't want to. It might not just. That might not just be laziness, which, you know, some sociologists would say that's not even a real thing. Like, people are not lazy. Like, we call it lazy when people need to rest. Right, Right. So that's an interesting avenue to go down if you're interested. But like, yes, sometimes it can be a sign that you. You're putting off the work because you really do need to rest. Not just because you're. You're stupid and can't get yourself to. To work. But then other times you are. You have plenty of rest and you just have these competing things that are going on. And it can be easier to not do anything than to. To try to figure out what the next step would be to take action. And then sometimes, you know, people with adhd, for example, might need the strong sense of, like, urgency that comes with a deadline that's tomorrow morning in order to have enough dopamine to go ahead and do the work. And that's part of it too. Wow.
- [41:17]
Lynn Hoffman
There are so many directions we could go. I feel like we could probably fill a few hours discussing all the myriad ways we can can combat issues with the arts, which I think is one more question for you, if you don't mind. What excites you the most about arts and healing, arts and health? I should say research currently.
- [41:40]
Dr. Tasha Golden
I think it's been, it's been the same for the last few years. But I, the thing that I find most interesting about something like arts and prescription is not just that, oh, you can prescribe somebody the an arts based experience and it can improve their condition or their life. But what I'm interested in is what this tells us about the world overall, that, you know, you can change, we can change. Even our most entrenched systems, it can seem like health care just is what it is and here's how it works. And turns out like, no, that's not the case at all. There are people doing really innovative, super fascinating things in healthcare systems, in hospitals, in lots of facilities, in university medical centers, exploring lots of different things. We can as a society decide what kind of systems we want to have, what kinds of communities we want to have, and we can decide to build those. And for me, it's never just been, oh, isn't it so cool that art can improve people's health. It's more like, for me, like I've never thought of myself as an arts advocate. I've always thought of myself as like an advocate for the things we need in order to thrive. It happens that art is one of those. And so I'm always encouraging people to let this spark their creativity. As far as what else can we change, what else can we think bigger about? That healthcare doesn't need to look at one specific way it can grow and change along with our sciences, along with our understanding of how humans work and how we connect and what we need. And our other systems can change as well. We just have to have enough imagination to envision what can and should be different and then act to make those changes and it's possible.
- [43:25]
Lynn Hoffman
And if, and if you are suffering from burnout, even if you're doing the job that you love. I worked in radio for years and I could feel it building in me like I need to change something, but I don't know what that is. What am I, an idiot? I can't leave this job. It pays well. I'm doing what I always wanted to do, but. But yet, is there more? And if you're feeling that way, just know that you can change your life. I used to tell people all the time, like, whatever you've done, you can change. You can change if it's going to be a better thing for you. People are so afraid of change in general. I think. So it's nice to get permission from the doc to make the change.
- [44:06]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Yes. And you know, if I can speak to that for just one moment. Yes, please, somebody dealing with burnout. Now, there's a couple of things that I often tell people. I think it's really important to recognize that especially if you're in a creative career, but many different types of careers that in the US at least, we do not have a lot of supportive systems for these kinds of careers. And that is wearing. It's not your fault. Specifically if you're experiencing burnout and you're like, wow, I have a lot of unpredictability in my life. I have a lot of concern about my finances, I have concern about whether I'm ever going to be able to buy a house. I have young creative friends who are having that conversation. There are a lot of things, how am I going to pay for my own healthcare if I'm an independent musician or creative or things like that? There's really big questions and difficulties that are very real, that have really real impacts on our brains and our bodies as a result of the systems and the communities and the structures that we live in and under and sometimes reckoning with that can make us feel a little bit powerless. Like, well, I can't change those, so I'm stuck. But I have found in practice it's often empowering because it helps people to stop putting all of the blame on themselves and be like, well, this is happening, happening to me because I'm not good enough. I should be more talented, I should be more charismatic, I should be more energetic, I should be able to fix myself and heal myself, whatever, right? But when we recognize that there are structural factors, then a couple things happen. We can find camaraderie with other people who are also affected by those. We can find paths forward that include not just some kind of the things that we can do for ourself and there are plenty of those things, but also how we can impact our communities and our systems and change things for our entire industry. And it also helps us to get more imaginative about our work and how we want to engage it in the world. And then of course, in addition to that, there are always ways that we can re narrate our story and choose a different one. And if the story, if the story isn't one that you can tell and be healthy, find a different one. Because there's your health and your well being is more important than any specific story, even if it's a really amazing one.
- [46:08]
Lynn Hoffman
On that note, Dr. Tasha golden, thank you so much for coming on Music. Save me your journey from burning out and being a rock star to pioneering the science of Arts and Healing is just so inspiring to me and I'm sure all of our listeners as well. And your story definitely reminds us that creativity can change and challenge and transform us. And also, if you'd like to learn more about Dr. Golden's work, you can find it at the International Arts and Minds Lab and her book Arts on A field guide for U.S. communities. And we'll definitely have links in the show notes and also I want to put out there that if you are grappling with burnout like we've been discussing or questioning your creative path or just wanting to know which direction to go, please know you're not alone. Art can break us, but it can also lead to new beginnings. And I'm just so grateful that you were able to flesh that out of this conversation and hopefully give some people some hope out there. Dr. Golden, thank you so much for coming on the show.
- [47:15]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Thank you so much. I did used to work for with the International Arts and Mine Lab, but they don't have. I don't know if they would have a link to me now. They probably do, but but I can add. Well, I'll say it this way just in case you want to drop it in, but if people want to connect, connect with me or find some free resources, they can go to tashagolden.com Music saved me and get some, you know, free links to the arts and prescription field guide. We mentioned some other things that might be interesting to you and feel free to reach out if you'd like to.
- [47:46]
Lynn Hoffman
Wait so they can go to Dr. Tasha Golden Music save me it'll be.
- [47:52]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Tashagolden.Com Music saved me that's great.
- [47:56]
Lynn Hoffman
Thank you so much. It's so wonderful to be connected to you and let's do some good work together.
- [48:02]
Dr. Tasha Golden
Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, Lynn. Have a great afternoon.
- [48:09]
Matt Rogers
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Dr. Tasha Golden
Not a problem.
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Matt Rogers
Simply sign up for a 30 day free trial. It's the Steelers and Bengals, Thursday at 7pm Eastern only on Prime Video. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details. Ah, greetings from my bath, festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money getting 5% cash back when I paying for no fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets. Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal. Save the offer in the app ends 1231. See paypal.com promoter points can be redeemed.
- [49:35]
Dr. Tasha Golden
For cash and more.
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Matt Rogers
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Lynn Hoffman
Of man would let this happen to his family?
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Matt Rogers
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Dr. Tasha Golden
On a story about the Murdochs. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time.
- [49:53]
Matt Rogers
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- [50:39]
Dr. Tasha Golden
This is an iHeart podcast.