D (3:08)

Taking a walk?

E (3:09)

I rarely work things out. I like to go off the cuff and try to grab things out of the air while you're playing the song and try to catch a little magic. That's spontaneous because I think that your listeners can sense that you're discovering it.

D (3:21)

When they are welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast. The podcast where your host Buzz Knight delves into the stories behind the music when with the musicians who make it happen. Today Buzz is joined by guitarist Mike Campbell. Mike was part of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers for many years. He also composed and played on Boys of Summer and Heart of the Matter by Don Henley and most of Stevie Nick's solo records. He also joined Fleetwood Mac to replace Lindsey Buckingham on the 2018 and 2019 tour. Now Mike is out on tour with his band the Dirty Knobs and and he'll take some time to talk with Buzz about their new release, Vagabonds, Virgins and Misfits. Mike Campbell joins Buzz Knight on Taking a Walk.

C (4:08)

Mike Campbell, so awesome to have you on the Taking a Walk podcast celebrating the release of Vagabonds, Virgins and Misfits. Have you been hanging around Tom Waits lately?

E (4:20)

I wish I could hang out with Tom Waits, but no, I haven't seen Tom.

C (4:28)

It's a great title and I absolutely love the album. We're going to get into talking about certainly the work with Lucinda Williams and Chris Stapleton and Graham Nash and In Benmont as well, and of course the great Dirty Knobs. Is it hard for you to comprehend that this is the third Dirty Knobs album?

E (4:51)

No, I can comprehend it. I did all the work. It's pretty well comprehended. You know, there's a lot of blood and sweat on those tapes. But no, I, I'm, I'm in this groove now. You know, I'm in the moving forward with this band and my own writing and I can comprehend going on even farther with this.

C (5:13)

And you seem to be absolutely having a joyful time.

E (5:17)

I am. I'm very grateful to be here. I love what I do and I'm very proud of the work that the band has done with me.

C (5:24)

So you were just out celebrating the 50th anniversary out at the church studio where Mud Crutch first hit the scene, back with the great Leon Russell and Shelter. Tell me about, first of all, going back how it felt and tell me how you remember that experience 50 years ago.

E (5:45)

Yeah, I was very honored that Tulsa and the church people asked me to come back and honor that place. They restored it really well and so we went out there and I had an out of body experience walking into that room after decades where it all kind of started with us in Cordell and Shelter Records. And I walked into the room that Tom and I and Ben and Randall Marsh, the original mud crutch, walked into that room with Denny Cordell and we didn't know how to record at all. But I remember standing in that room and just looking at each other and we thought we'd made the big time, you know, we were in a church studio at Leon Russell's town, you know, but we didn't know what we were doing. But I did have a flashback standing there last week. I could see my brother Tom's ghost and philosopher old feelings again. It was kind of touching, you know, in a lot of ways, in a good way.

C (6:45)

And when you were out initially there with Leon Russell, did you have a deep understanding of what an amazing musician and career he had had?

E (6:58)

Yeah, I love Leon Russell. I used to see him play in Gainesville when he passed through town. Of course, I'd seen the Mad Dogs in Englishman tour and all that, those great players in his band. But to be honest, Leon wasn't there. We first went through Tulsa. We were hooked up with Denny Cordell, who was Leon's partner and our producer. We didn't see Leon until a while later out in la, but he was not there at the church that first time we came through town.

C (7:25)

But that's amazing. You had this. This spiritual experience there that you clearly felt right.

E (7:33)

Yeah, yeah. You could see it in the video where I'm standing in that room. We did a video of this new song, Dare to Dream, and you can see that I've got. I'm having a moment, you know, a positive, emotional moment.

C (7:45)

The video is amazing and. And it. It really evokes a tremendous feeling and a sense of some optimism that we all need, don't you think?

E (7:57)

Absolutely. Don't we? The world is a wicked place these days. It seems almost more wicked than it used to be. But, yeah, I think that, you know, as an artist or songwriter and Tom was the same way. And I think, not to compare myself to the Beatles, but I like the thing with the Beatles, always had a positive. Most of their songs were about peace and love, you know, every now and then John Lennon would throw in I'm a Loser. But generally speaking, our songs with the Heartbreakers, we always tried to aim toward hope and redemption, you know, and if a song maybe has a dark character, at least by the end, you hope there's some way he's going to get out of his predicament. And life will be better. And so this song in some ways makes people feel that maybe life can be better. Then I've done my job.

C (8:49)

It's a wonderful song and having Graham on it is super special. How did you happen upon asking Graham to appear on this?

E (9:01)

Well, it took a lot of courage. I had met Graham before a few times on tour. They had opened for us and I had done a gig in Kauai with him once, a benefit. And he came by and did my little radio show that I do on. On Tom Petty Radio. And. And at the end of the interview, I kind of sheepishly said, you know, would you maybe want to sing on one of our tracks? He said, sure, I'll make your song better. And he did, you know, God bless him. So I sent him the tape. And I am a huge child of the 60s, the Hollies, the Beatles, Animals, Stones and the Hollies. I always just loved their vocals and Graham was a large part of that high harmony. And so I sent him the song and. And I got it back. And I was just blown away that he kind of captured some of that Holly's blend on the song for me. And I couldn't have been happier, you know, to have a here on your song. I mean, come on.

C (9:57)

I love the. The show on Tom Petty Radio, by the way. You make it look very easy. How do you make it look so easy?

E (10:05)

Well, it's just you and me, we're just talking, you know, I like they asked me, you know, the Tom Petty Radio on Sirius XM is a good station. And Tom started it and was deeply involved with the show. And now that he's gone, we want to keep the show alive and keep playing his music and our music. And so they. Benmut does a DJ show and I think Stan lynch and Steve Ferrone are also doing DJ shows where they come on and talk and play songs. And they asked me if I would want to help and I didn't want to do that because I don't really feel like I'm a DJ type person. But I said if I could do, you know, interviews and conversations with other people about music, then that would be interesting to me. So that's what my show is all about, just getting someone that I respect or that, you know, knows about us and just talk about music and have a conversation like you and I are now. And that's the idea behind it.

C (10:58)

It's excellent. I love it. So you got a guitar at 16 years old, is that right?

E (11:05)

That's about right, yeah.

C (11:07)

And what kind of guitar was this?

E (11:09)

It was basically unplayable, but I didn't know at the time. It was a 15. Pawnshop Harmony, Arch Top Acoustic. And I begged my mom. We didn't have much money, but I begged her for a guitar. And she scraped up the 15 bucks and got me this thing. And I learned how to play on it, but it was unplayable. Now, I look back on, the strings were real high off the neck. And my fingers would literally bleed. I'd be trying so hard until I went over to a friend's house and he had a Gibson. And I pick it up and he went, oh, my God. This isn't hard at all. It's easy. I've been struggling, you know, but my first guitar, it taught me how to, you know, play hard. And I was just hooked. As soon as I got the guitar, nothing else mattered. It was all about the guitar.

C (11:52)

Do you remember the first solo that.

E (11:54)

You learned, johnny Be Good? I learned it off the radio. I didn't have a teacher. I never took guitar lessons. But I heard that on the radio, and somehow I managed. I guess I had an affinity for the. And I just figured it out on the guitar. And I just love Chuck Berry and that song. I connected with it, you know, I felt like, you know, poor boy trying to dream about making it someday. And I just identified with the way Chuck plays. And I still get chills when I hear him play. There's something about him and the way he plays guitar. The Double Stop thing that I tried to, you know, emulate.

C (12:26)

Did you ever perfect the Duck Walk?

E (12:29)

No, I'm still working on that. Nobody can quite do it like him. I've seen people try, but Chuck had the way. Yeah, he was quite a performer. Amazing person. Yeah.

C (12:41)

A little bit of mojo, wouldn't you say?

E (12:44)

Yeah, yeah, he has some mojo. And his songwriting, you know, his character, his originality, you know, he created that thing. There's so many of us that, you know, borrowed from over the years. And he's still my top three guitar players of all time.

C (13:02)

You mind listing the other two?

E (13:04)

Well, it's more than three, really. But Chuck, of course, Jimi Hendrix, because he was just ridiculously out of control. Crazy good. I like Mike Bloomfield a lot. In the early days, I had the Paul Butterfield records. And I had that harmony guitar and record. And I would slow the record down, you know, to 16, so I could hear what the guitar was doing. And that's how I learned that he was bending the notes, you know, I didn't know you could bend the notes on the guitar and so, you know. But there's, you know, Keith Richards, George Harrison, Roger McGuin, there's so many. That era was just incredible for guitar players, you know, it's not like that anymore, but I'm happy I was there to be inspired by all that stuff when I was learning.

C (13:46)

And you completely self taught, though?

E (13:49)

Well, yeah, when I was a kid in school, my parents forced me to take accordion lessons for a couple of months and I learned the basics of scales and chords and things on that a little bit. But when I got the guitar, I just taught myself all by ear, you know.

C (14:06)

What was the first concert that you ever went to?

E (14:09)

Oh, the first concert would have been to Beach Boys at the Jacksonville Coliseum. I think the bill was, it was one of those Dick Clark things. I think they had a bunch of artists on like Del Shannon and Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs and different bands. And then the Beach Boys came on as the headliner at the end and they just completely blew me away. They sounded just like their records, you know, and I love that, that dream, that a California dream of hope and happiness living in, you know, Jacksonville. That sounds pretty good to me, I'm sure.

C (14:47)

So tell me about what pawn shops mean to you when it comes to the discovery of guitars which mean the world to you.

E (14:58)

Yeah, pawn shops are a gold mine, you know, especially when I, in the early days when I couldn't afford much, you could get a good deal in a pawn shop, you know. I got my first Firebird Gibson in a pawn shop for I think 120 bucks. And it was just ironic recently on the Fleetwood Mac tour when I was out with them, we were in Philadelphia and I went by a pawn shop and I found a white Firebird and I. That's become my main guitar, live touring guitar now. So I'm back to the Firebirds again. But you know, it's hard to find deals now because the word is out that, you know, these instruments are valuable. But I used to always go on days off with the Heartbreakers, me and maybe, you know, Scott Thurston or Ron Blair. We go out and find a pawn shop and try to dig up an old gym. You know, occasionally you get something really cool. Most of my guitars are old vintage stuff. And nowadays though, I was lucky to find that white Firebird because nowadays it's hard to find deals.

C (15:58)

Is there anything in particular you're on the lookout for?

E (16:02)

You know, I. My Brody keeps asking, sending me stuff, you want this? Do you want this? I Got. You know, I've already got one of those I would like to get. I might want to get a epiphone. Coronet, I think it's called. It's real light. Del Shannon had one. Real lightweight, and they sound pretty good. Steve Marriott played one, I think, in the. In the Small Faces. But I'm not on a hunt. I've got too many. I need to give them away.

C (16:30)

What did the loss of Duane Eddy mean to you as a guitarist?

E (16:34)

Well, Duane was a huge influence. I mean, he was one of the first, if not the first, instrumental guitar player with Rebel Rouser. And because they're young and moving and grooving, all those great instrumentals that were on the radio when I was learning, and I learned those songs off the radio, too. You know, anytime an artist of that stature leaves us, it's always a loss, you know. But I really liked his guitar and his tone, you know, he had that gretch tone, deep throaty, vibratoish tone, and he was an innovator, you know. Rebel Rouser.

C (17:11)

You knew it was him when you heard him, right?

E (17:13)

Yeah, he. He was a. Yeah, he was an icon and he was ahead of the curve. You know, there weren't that many guitar instrumentals out at that time. Maybe Santo and Johnny and a few others. But his was a very, you know, recognizable style and tone, and I like to try to go for that sound sometimes.

C (17:33)

You know what I thought was interesting? I was talking to Steve Howe from yes on the podcast, and even, you know, some of the great British Prague rock guitarists looked up to Dwayne Eddy in a big way. He impacted them as well.

E (17:49)

The twang's the thing. Have twang, will travel, you know. Yeah, and just a big. He made the guitar sound so big and full, and his songs are really cool. Cool riffs and simple, you know, not like showy, but melodic and tough sound. And I try to play that way, too.

C (18:10)

So I was hoping we could go back to. I'm just gonna pick three of my favorites, which really is difficult for me because I've got another 300 favorites from your work with. With Tom and the Heartbreakers. But can you take us back into what you recall, the creation, either solo wise or session wise, of. Well, first American Girl would be the one I wanted to ask about.

E (18:37)

Yeah, I remember cutting American Girl. It was on the 4th of July, and we were at the Shelter. We called it the Brown Room. The Shelter Studios, which had compensated the API console from Tulsa and put it in the office there on Hollywood Boulevard. That's where we did our first two records. And Tom was beginning to blossom as a writer. And he brought in Breakdown and Wow, One Forever. And then he brought in American Girl one day and it was like. It was a no brainer. This is a great song, you know. And he had the Bo Diddley chords and I wanted to put a 12 string on it, but I couldn't. I didn't have one. Couldn't afford a 12 string at the time. I had a broadcaster, which is still my main guitar. So I was trying to get a 12 string sound with the drone octaves. Dang, dang, a dang dang, dang. That's octaves on a six string trying to sound like a 12 string. And so that was the genesis of that sound. And between Tom's guitar and that high droning and the voicings of my chords going up against his chords down low, that became the Heartbreaker's guitar sound, basically. So when I hear that song now, I can hear the formation of the band. That was where we found our thing, you know. And at the end of the song, funny story, there's. I was just. I make a lot of stuff up on the track. I don't work it out too much at the end. I just started doing those triplets because I got bored or didn't know what to do. And I thought it was goofy, you know. And Tom goes, oh, no, you gotta double that. I said, no, it sounds too much like something else, you know. No, he said, that's really good. Double it. And now it's like this. On the fade, that's that signature guitar part that goes out. So he was right about that.

C (20:20)

And that's where you kind of. It probably came into form as your own process of improvising through sessions and sort of the, you know, continuous creation of something till you get it right. Is that correct?

E (20:35)

It is correct. I rarely work things out. I like to go off the cuff and try to grab things out of the air while you're playing the song and try to catch a little magic. That's spontaneous. That's what I try to do. And that's what that song was about. And just to go back, I don't want to get too technical, but we talked about Dwayne Eddy. There's also Chet Atkins, who was a big influence on me. And it was because I had been teaching myself, Chad Atkins, on that song American Girl at the end. That's a finger picking thing. You have to use your, you know, a couple of fingers to get that. And I got that from Chad Atkins, that technique, so I owe that to him too. But, yeah, I like to just go off the cuff. Breakdown was an off the cuff. That opening riff was something I did on the track mindlessly. Stream of consciousness at the end of the track. I played that once or twice as I was. Guess it was getting to the end of a long jam. And then they called me up and said, you know, that lick you play at the end should be at the beginning of the song. It'll be like a catch for the song, you know, a hook. So I went back down and learned it and played it on the front of the song so that, you know, I like to grab things out of the air that are unexpected because I think that listeners can sense that you're discovering it when they are beautiful.

C (21:48)

Tell me about you Got Lucky, which you remember about that whole process and the session and solos and the creation of it.

E (21:56)

You Got Lucky was written on a. A synthesizer. The chords, that whole thing I had done with three fingers. I'm not much on the keyboards, but I had a. I had made a drum loop, which I was into at the time. And I had that keyboard line and the chords. And we got. I didn't have the. The sort of. With a Clint Eastwood movie, Italian Western, kind of solo. Em or Coney thing, which is in the middle. That was Tom's idea. He said, why don't you go play something like a James Bond thing on the middle? So I had a. Strat had just come in the mail, and I went out, down, down, down, down. So that was. I came up with the line. Actually, that line was on the keyboard line at the beginning of the song. So I just copied that on the guitar and did it with a vibrato on that. So that Tom suggested that I do that there. And I just think he wrote a great lyric to that. So I was so happy. Every time I would give him a piece of music, if he was inspired to write words, it was always great, you know, I was lucky that way.

C (23:01)

And then. Tell me about the Waiting and the creation of the waiting. And in particular, is it true you also played bass on the Waiting?

E (23:10)

I did, yeah. I played bass. No deference to Ron, who's an incredible. A lot better bass player than I am. But on the songs of mine, that if I had a demo, I would put a rough bass on it just to define what it. How it should go. And then sometimes we would end up. I'd have to play it because that was the right vibe for the song. On the waiting for some reason Ron wasn't there that day or something. So I ended up playing the bass. And what's interesting about that song, which I love, one of my favorite songs of his, it's very birdsy at the end on the bass. The guitar wasn't. I hadn't done my guitar part yet. On the end at the bass where it breaks down, the bass goes. That was a bass line. And so when I went to do the guitar, I found that once again the high octaves to sound like a 12 string. So that came from the bass part. So that was also just a stream of consciousness moment where that line came in when I was doing the bass. But if you're, if you're clever and you listen to what you're doing, you can grab little things that you didn't expect that happened. Little pieces of magic. And if you can catch them and, you know, mine them, I think that makes for good music.

D (24:28)

We'll be right back with more of the Taking a Walk podcast.

B (24:36)

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D (28:44)

Welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast.

C (28:47)

Let's talk about the magic you created on vagabonds, virgins and misfits. Yeah, I just absolutely love this cover to cover. As we would say. You've got some great folks that are helping you out here. Lucinda Williams and Chris Stapleton, Graham Nash, of course, and Ben Mont talk about how this project came together.

E (29:13)

Well, it was going to. It's a Dirty Knobs album and I started writing songs for the sessions. And we came in. I like to cut live with the Dirty Knobs, much as the Heartbreakers were doing near the end of their career and the very beginning of our career. We always played live in the studio. And the Dirty Knobs is very much spontaneous solos on the fly. You know, I try to get it on tape before they know it too well. So it kind of sounds a little rough and rowdy, but. So I was writing some songs for the album and we started recording with our producer, George Riculous. We recorded about 25 songs or more. And then I was, you know, reassessing all the songs, trying to narrow it down to what would an album might be. And my wife actually suggested you should go back through your tape blocker. Because I've got closets full of 2 inch tape of demos I did back 20 years ago. And I didn't want to do that because I don't like to go back, I like to keep moving forward. But she said, no, you might have overlooked something. So I went in there, started listening to those things and I found four or five things that ended up on this record because I thought the songs were good and they fit into what I was trying to do. And a few of them, we actually used those tapes and built up from them because they had the vibe. And so half the. Half the record is older songs and half the record is newer songs and the other records laying on the floor for the next record.

C (30:38)

Let's talk about some of the cuts. First of all, the greatest is that is the greatest one of those that you took off the shelf and.

E (30:45)

And that's a new one. That was one of the first songs I wrote for the album. And I was. We had come off a great tour and I wanted to write a song that was a thank you to the crowd, you know that. And so that song is. Is, you know, you are the greatest is the audience. You know, I just wanted to give back how much appreciation we have for them being there. And so that song kind of built out of that, you know, it just became this drone Beatles, the harmony kind of. I don't know what you'd call it, kind of psychedelic in a way, but it's a gift back to the audience.

C (31:18)

I love it. And tell me about angel of Mercy, the creation of that.

E (31:23)

Angel of Mercy is an old song that was not in the tape blocker. I had tried it on the first two albums to cut it because I like the song and it goes back quite a ways. The Dirty Knobs. When we were playing bars, when we first got started around la, we played that song live. So we tried it again for the third album and it didn't really measure up. And so we basically had finished the record and George Trullius came in. He said, you know, I've been listening to that song. You guys should cut it again. Let's make it sound like a proper record, you know. So I said, okay. And so at that point, Steve Ferroni came in because I needed a drummer, and he played drums on that one song and it made the record.

C (32:05)

We talked about Dare To Dream, which is the single with Graham Nash, which is just such a, you know, fun, uplifting, optimistic song. And I want to talk about Hands Are Tied. And that guitar. What guitar are you playing on that? That produces such a unique sound there.

E (32:30)

You know, I'm trying to remember. I know it's a. It's got a vibrato arm. I think it was a Gretsch cranked up through an amp because I know it's got like a Neil Youngish vibrato arm vibe on it. I think it was the Gretsch clipper that I have. Same guitar I used and I won't back down. And that was an old song that I dug up. And that's one of my favorite songs. It's a very emotional song and it's. It's a little dark, but it's one. It's, you know, it's. Someone's in trouble. The girl or whoever is having a really hard time and you want to help her, you know, and it's like, whatever it is, it could be drugs, it could be illness, whatever it is. And, you know, I want to help you. My hands are tied. You know, I hope. Hope it works out, you know, kind of thing. So it. And it's also. I like that song. It's got a time signature change in it because. Which I rarely do. I usually write in 4, 4 or 3, 4. This one has a 5, 4 section at the top and at the end. And another thing I like about that song is my wife is. Is so shy, you know, And I've always asked her over the years, why don't you come in and sing on something? Know I'll make you sound good, don't worry, you know, and she never wanted to. And then one day on this record, she came in, you know, I'd like to sing on this record, you know. So on that song she just comes in. Ah. And we layered her to make this great bed and it really gives the song a spiritual quality. So I was proud of her for doing that.

C (33:58)

That's great.

E (33:59)

But the guitar is. Is emotional and sweet, and the words are, you know, spiritual, too.

C (34:09)

It almost evokes sort of that Town Without Pity sort of sound, you know, a little bit.

E (34:17)

I also think that I didn't notice this till recently, that the guitar, which was a stream of consciousness line, it's kind of reminiscent of Breakdown a little bit, you know, And I think it's that same guy, whoever that guy in me is, placed in that mode. It has a little bit of that element in it. And then, of course, at the end, it goes into the whole Jimi Hendrix kind of swirly thing. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that song. I like that one quite a bit.

C (34:47)

Oh, I love it. And then you have Hell or a High Water, where that force of nature, Lucinda Williams, emerges in that song. What a brilliant. A brilliant song. Brilliant collaboration. Talk about how you collaborated with her.

E (35:07)

Yeah, that's a new song that I wrote for the album, and I'm very proud of that one because it's a lyrical workout. You know, it's a story. There's a character, and there's like a little movie, and there's a lot of wordplay in it, which I'm starting to really enjoy doing. And so we cut it live, and I sang it most. My vocal is live. And then on reflection, I thought, you know, there's this character in the song, this girl that this guy meets up with and goes into this shadowy world for a moment. And I thought, wouldn't it be great if we had a female voice in there to come in and be that character? And when I thought of Lucinda once again, she had done my show, and I said, you know, you maybe consider singing on the song. And. And she was real shy about it, but she came in and she added such a depth of soul to it, you know, God bless her. She's so good, and she really makes the song for me.

C (36:04)

Yeah, it's so. It's so memorable. My God, can you talk about the song? So alive and in particular, just the. That grinding, those sounds that you get out of the guitars there. What is that?

E (36:20)

It's live. It's. I think it's tuned down to D. The low string is tuned down for a deep growl. And it's just a burst of adrenaline, you know, it's just like, I feel so alive every time I see you, you know, it's kind of almost corny, but the music, I think, gives it some depth and it's just a. It's just a, you know, Dirty knobs at their best. And the solo's live on the floor. You know, know, mistakes and all, but it's just. I just see it as a burst of adrenaline. And we got Steve Fernandi to sing the oh, oh, oh, oh in there, which is hilarious.

C (36:55)

I love it. Don't Wait up with Chris Stapleton and Ben Mont Tench. That is another stellar collaboration. And tell me how that came together.

E (37:08)

That was an older song that we had played in the bars before for. And I had a. I discovered a 2 inch tape analog version of it that was really, really good. And I tidied it up a little bit. And Chris Stapleton was over to write One Day or something, and I begged him to sing on it, which he did. He sang great. And Ben Mount came over one day and we said, we have a Steinway in my living room. He barely used it. We set up the mics in there for him and he did one take. Jerry Lee Lewis on it. Tremendous. And it's a funny song. You know, it's. The words are kind of, you know, I am the Walrus, a little bit, like, nonsensical, but in a weird way, they kind of make sense. And it's just kind of got a. A sense of humor in it. But it's a real burst of adrenaline, you know, guys are really going for, especially our bass player, Crawdaddy Lance Morrison. He just. All through the album, he's just pumping it. He's so good.

C (38:07)

Yeah, talk about Lance Morrison and how you love playing with these guys and the dirty knobs.

E (38:13)

Our guitar is a guy named Chris Holt. We call him Sidewinder. He's from Texas, too. And he's all over this new record. He is a real breath of fresh air. He's a great singer. He can play piano. A lot of the piano you hear is him and the guitar, he's just incredible. And his voice sounds real good with mine because I need a lot of help, but he makes me sound better and like, gone on. There's another song on the album called Shake these Blues, which is. Is kind of a rave up. And we cut the track live and I said to Chris, I said, let me get to the. To your solo. Just make something up, you know? He's like. And he did. He was right on the money. He nailed it, you know, and he's like that. I could just look at him, hey, could do this. And you go, all right. He'll do it better than I thought. He would. So he's. Chris Holt is a real find and so I'm lucky to have those guys. And now Steve Ferrone on the drums is quite a band, I would say. So.

C (39:09)

Speaking of sense of humor, too, my old friends. That one made me smile.

E (39:16)

Good. It did its job. Well, you know, that's a. I wasn't going to put it on the record because I thought it was a little, you know, in joke, but George Cooley said no, it would sound great at the end. You know, just a little breath of fresh air at the end. And a little humor is good. And that's obviously just me discovering how to play with words, you know, I got this idea that there's all these alcoholic drinks that could be people, you know, because they have names like Don Perry on or Captain Morgan. So I figured I'll just make the drinks the characters in the song, you know, but you gotta say goodbye to them because you can't get sucked into that world, you know. So it's a tongue in cheek song, but it is fun. And Chris Stapleton actually sings harmony on it too, which is good.

C (40:01)

And tell me about Innocent man, since we've covered, I think, everything other than Amanda Lynn. Tell me about Innocent man as well.

E (40:09)

It's got that droney kind of. I don't know what to compare it to. It's kind of Appalachian or Irish almost, but it's got that riff in it and it's got. It's another story song which I had these characters. And it's also an old song that I used to play back in the bars and I pulled out and refined it a bit. But I like it because it's like a movie, you know, you could. There's a lot of descriptive characters throughout the song and it's. It's partly autobiographical. There's a verse in there where it talks about the attack train dogs coming on the bus and sniffing around for drugs, which actually happened to the Heartbreakers. Once, going into Canada, we had stopped and put all our pot and stuff in a hotel room on the American side. We'll pick it up after we come back, you know. So we're going across the border at 4 in the morning and they stopped the bus and the German shepherd came on the bus. He went straight for our tour manager's coat and he had a little half a joint that he forgot about. So they drug us in, you know, in the freezing cold and made us strip search and all that. So that made its way into the song. So there's a little bit of that in it. Now, the title, when I first wrote it, I was calling it Immigrant man, you know. And then George Coolius, one day he goes, you know, that's. That's a cool idea, but you might get a little, you know, political whatever from that. And I said, yeah, maybe. So he said, how about if you call it Innocent Man? You know what? That's better. It's got a wider palette. So I gave him credit for co writing the song.

C (41:39)

Tell me what you have learned from being around two of the greats besides Tom, obviously. Don Henley and Bob Dylan.

E (41:53)

Well, how lucky am I? You know, my life is like that. You know, things have. Throughout my life, I've just been charmed. Things have dropped in my lap, you know. And the thing with Don Henley, Boys of Summer was just something that was a chain of events that Jimmy Iovine kind of spearheaded that track because Tom didn't hear what to do with it at that time. He later said to me, Tom said to me, you know, I shouldn't have let that one get away. If I'd have been in my presence of mind, I would have kept that one. But it ended up with Don and he did an amazing, amazing job on. I'm really proud of that song. And Don is just, you know, he's one of the greats, you know, and he's always been really kind to me and very generous with the songs that we've done. And of course, Bob Dylan showed up in our lives. We did a world tour with him with the Heartbreakers, which was very inspirational and eye opening and just being around someone who's that special and deep. I hope some of it rubbed off. But, you know, he. He was just so full of wisdom, you know. He said to me once, when you're writing a song, don't just write three verses in a chorus, you know, write 20 verses, you know, because, you know, while you're in that place, you're. You're, you know, number 14 and 15 might be great that you would never have gotten to them. So, you know, channel and work for. For better lyrics, you know. And so I try to emulate that. I've learned a lot from him just watching him.

C (43:26)

So tell me how much you're looking forward to being out on the road.

E (43:31)

Oh, I can't wait. The band, you got all these new songs to learn, you know, we have a whole new set. We'll have to let some of the old songs go by the wayside for a while. And working on the. I'm going to play most of the songs off the new record. And we've got a great opening act. This girl, Shannon McNally, is going to open the tour for us, and the band is ready to go. You know, I. I miss the crowds and I miss the whole. I like being on the road, you know, and I like playing for people. And we've got to the stage where we can play theaters now, you know, we're not in the biker bars. Not there's anything wrong with biker bars, but I like the theaters better because it sounds better and they're a little bigger. And so we've worked up to that stage. I mean, they're small theaters. Some of them are medium sized, but that'll make it a lot more fun. You know, we'll have better venues. And Steve Ferrone on the drums on this tour, he'll be a lot of fun to play with, and the crowd loves him and we get to play all these new songs. So I'm just jazzed, you know, it's. That's what I do. I write songs and go play them, you know.

C (44:34)

Will you be writing on the road continuously moving forward?

E (44:39)

I write all the time. I have found, typically on the road, I'm so drained from the tour, the gigs, that I don't write that much. I tend to write more when I'm at home and I have, you know, free time. But every now and then I might get a sketch of an idea and I'll put it down. But mostly I'm focused on the gigs when I'm traveling.

C (44:58)

So as someone who is continuously learning in your craft, in closing, what haven't you learned that you want to learn?

E (45:12)

Well, I want to learn to be a better singer, a better writer, and a better guitar player and can always get better. That's the beauty of the guitar and music in general. You know, the more you learn, the more there is to learn. I just want to get better. Mostly, though, the guitar is kind of. I kind of just do that instinctively. I don't have to work at it too hard. It just comes to me. But the singing. I'm working on finding my own voice and writing my own characters and. And putting songs together that, you know, hopefully will inspire people. You know, I know I can get better at that, so I'm going to keep struggling with that to get as good as I can.

C (45:53)

I am so grateful that we got to spend this time together. Mike Campbell, Vagabonds, Virgins and Misfits. Go check it out. It is an amazing record. And Mike, thank you for the time. But thank you for all the great music you continue to give us.

E (46:09)

Well, you're very welcome and thank you Buzz for taking the time for me today.

D (46:14)

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts.

F (46:33)

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