← Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
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- [00:01]
Ryan Seacrest
Taking a walk.
- [00:01]
Sandy Knox
I definitely write a little left of center and I don't write. I don't have tunnel vision when I write. What I mean by that is that I don't sit down and go, I'm gonna write a country song. I just sit down and try to write a good song.
- [00:14]
Buzz Knight
I'm Buzz Knight, the host of the Taking a Walk podcast. This is the show where we talk to fascinating people and get their inside stories. And today it's a great story from the incomparable Sandy Knox, a Grammy nominated songwriter, music industry trailblazer. She's written songs for icons like Reba McIntyre and Dionne Warwick and she is somebody who just doesn't look back. She's forging ahead with new projects, including her highly anticipated audiobook where she shares even more of her remarkable journey and the lessons she's learned along the way. Let's talk to Sandy Knox on the Taking a Walk podcast.
- [00:56]
Unknown
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- [01:02]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [02:35]
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- [03:37]
Buzz Knight
Taking a walk Sandy Knox welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast. So nice to be with you.
- [03:42]
Sandy Knox
Thank you for having me here.
- [03:45]
Buzz Knight
So it is called Taking a Walk Sandy. So I do have a responsibility to ask you if you could take a walk with somebody living or dead. I prefer it if you're around the world of music that it be a music person. But it doesn't have to be. Who would you take a walk with and where would you take that walk?
- [04:07]
Sandy Knox
Can I have two people? One music, one non music?
- [04:11]
Buzz Knight
Of course.
- [04:12]
Sandy Knox
Okay. If I'm taking a walk in the music scene, I would love to take a walk with the fabulous songwriter Johnny Mercer who wrote some wonderful songs in the 30s, late 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. You know he was a great influence on me. His lyrics, when I was, when I was a kid and I was eating up all my parents record collection, I noticed that I kept liking the songs of this guy Johnny Mercer. And so he would be one, you know, he, he's responsible for oh God, Moon river, that line, my huckleberry friend because he was raised in that area where they picked huckleberries with their buddies and stuff. So he. I would really love to pick his brain because I don't know, you know a lot of people today writing, they use rhyming dictionaries or rhyming apps where they can figure out a rhyme. I don't know if those were available when he was writing and some of the stuff that he came up with was just, was just fabulous, just wonderful. So he would be my music person, my non music person. Both of my grandfathers were passed away before my parents even met. I would really love to meet the man who raised my father because my dad was A wonderful guy, and he was really smart, and he did things the right way, and he was just full of integrity. And I would love to have a conversation with the man that was his father, and that couldn't happen. He had already passed away. But, you know, he. He was a different kind of man. My dad was born and raised out in the badlands of New Mexico, and his father was one of the bankers in their small town of Truth or Consequences, New Mexico. That's where my dad was born and raised. And. And they also owned the only hotel in town. And so I would just. I'd be really curious to. To walk with that man and just get to know my father's father. That. That would have been. That's something I think about a lot. And of course, as, you know, as we get older, we start looking into our ancestry and we start wondering about, well, where did I come from? So I. That was. That's one that I would be really happy to do.
- [06:44]
Buzz Knight
Oh, that's nice. Thank you for sharing that. That's such a great couple of walk suggestions for sure. And I know your dad was a part of this journey you made ultimately to Nashville to pursue a. And songwriting with that fifteen hundred dollars and no connections in town situation in your. In your life. When you made that trip, a. What inspired you to make that trip? And did your dad try to talk you out of it?
- [07:19]
Sandy Knox
No. No, he did not at that. When I got to Nashville, I had already been out in LA for a year. About a year and a half earlier, I got accepted into ASCAP's workshop west. And I only. I think at the time, they only took 12 people a year. And I had submitted my songs and I got accepted. I went out there for a year. After that was over, I came back to Houston and I was telling everybody I was a songwriter. And at this point, I'm 22, 22 and a half, and. But I was working in a department store and I was going out with my friends, and we were going to the discos and dancing and having fun every night. And one day my dad said to me, I think you might want to look into going to secretarial school and learn how to type and get, you know, maybe have that. And I. When he suggested that, I was so offended that he did not. And I said, well, I'm a songwriter. And he said, well, you're not being a songwriter. You're just going out and having a good time and everything. Well, first off, let me just tell you, my dad was so good at reverse psychology And I didn't realize till later what he was. What he was doing. And I went to bed that night. I was so. I was insulted that he did not think that I was going to be. That I was a songwriter. And I went to bed that night and I got out my calendar and I counted up six months to the day. What is six months to the day from now? And it was August 13, 1983. And I. All right, I'm unpacking my bags in Nashville, Tennessee, on August 13th and 19th later this year. So that was my goal, and that's what I did. So I continued working in the department store and saving my money and. And the day before, we. I don't know what day of the week it was. I think. I think August 13th was like a Thursday or we. My car in that U Haul was loaded up and we drove to Nashville, my dad driving the U Haul, me driving my car. And we rolled in, and I had already come a couple months, about a month before and found an apartment. And we rolled in and we unpacked all my stuff, and I didn't have a thing. I had a piano, a guitar, a reel to reel tape player, and I had a cassette machine so I could get things off my reel to reel and make cassette copies. And. And that's about all I had. And some clothes. That was about all I had. So, yeah, my dad did not. My parents did not discouraged me. They actually encouraged me.
- [10:05]
Buzz Knight
Well, but was that reverse psychology, something that shaped your resilience to this day?
- [10:11]
Sandy Knox
Oh, gosh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. I would say that when. When. When people say, well, you can't do. Like on this, this audiobook, I had several people say, well, you can't do that. You can't do. You can't write an audiobook that has music in it. And I'd be. Why? Well, nobody's ever done it. That's not a reason not to do it. So I do kind of have that little part of me that digs in my heels and goes, well, wait a minute. If somebody says no, I think I'm going to see if I can maybe make it happen. Yeah, yeah.
- [10:43]
Buzz Knight
That bolsters the reason to do it for sure.
- [10:46]
Sandy Knox
Yeah.
- [10:47]
Buzz Knight
Yeah. Can you share the story behind your. Your first break as a songwriter and. And how it felt to hear your song recorded by a major artist?
- [11:01]
Sandy Knox
Yeah, yeah. The first time I heard my song recorded by a major artist, there were two. There was. I had a single on Dionne Warwick. It's called Where My Lips have Been. And at the same and the same day, the same week I had. I cut on my first cut on Reba called He Wants to get Married. They both came out the same week. That was the first time that I heard two major artists doing my songs. And that was such a gratifying moment. And I've told people I sat on the floor of my apartment and I just played each song back to back. I played this one, I played that one, I played this one, I played that one. I just, you know, surrounded myself with those voices of those legendary artists singing songs that I had written. And my parents were glad to hear that too. They kind of went, she's, she's, she's made it, I guess.
- [12:07]
Buzz Knight
So how do you maintain this great sense of humor and, and positivity during tough times?
- [12:18]
Sandy Knox
It's hard sometimes. You know, happy people aren't happy all the time. But I'm. I will say I always try to lean on the positive sign and things are going to be better and whatever. Um, you know, there were moments that were really, really, really tough to get through. There were moments that I didn't know if I, I had a. I was going to have any money to buy dog food for my dog or, you know, you know, make the rent. Those are tough. You know, those are scary, and those are tough times. But I just always had this. I always knew that I could go get another job. I was capable of working. I had worked Since I was 14 years old is when I started pulling in a paycheck. And I just always knew that, you know, it'll be okay. It's going to be okay. I'm going to take. I'm going to make sure it's okay. So. But it is hard sometimes to keep a positive attitude. But I think most of my friends and people who know me know that I err on that side. I drive in that lane more than I drive in the. In the slow lane of sadness. There's a song hook right there. The slow line.
- [13:25]
Buzz Knight
Yeah. That's brilliant. Share with the audience your approach to. To writing songs that address difficult and taboo topics. And in particular, one that comes to my mind is she thinks His Name was John. That was one of the first AIDS related chart hits. So how do you approach difficult topics such as that?
- [13:53]
Sandy Knox
Thank you for mentioning that song. That song's very important to me. You know, I had that idea because of some. Something a woman said to me at a little gathering, a little party. She was referring to someone, a boyfriend, and she made a comment and I just remember thinking, ooh, that May not be the smartest way to go. And I had the idea. I brought that idea up to several co writers. None of them were interested because it was a negative. The way I was thinking about how to write was probably not going to have a happy ending. I had 17 pages of lyrics already written and I normally overwrite and then I start condensing and economizing on my words and stuff. I finally, one of my co writers, who was very young, Steve Rosen, he had just come to town. He wasn't jaded yet, and he didn't know to say no. He said sure. So we started working on it. The reason that song is important to me is because in 1979, my brother, who was recovering from testicular cancer had a blood transfusion and five years later he had full blown aids. And we found out that that blood transfusion, he had gotten HIV from that blood transfusion. He was two weeks before his 30th birthday when he passed away. I put myself in his shoes. What if I got that news? How would that affect me? What would that mean to me if I found out right then at that point when I was writing the song and I put myself in those shoes? And that's how the song eventually became, you know what it was. I originally wrote it. The target was Bonnie Wright because she was looking for something. I believe the song plugger at the time said Bonnie was looking for a socially conscious song. And so we finished it and got it recorded. And that was the pitch that I thought was going to happen. But by that time I think Reba had cut a couple of my tunes and she was familiar with my name. So they went ahead and made the pitch and Reba put it on a hard hold and she got it, knew what it was about and put it on a hard hold. I was even performing that with my live band and I got the word from someone in either the publishing camp or whatever that Reba wanted to ask if I would take it out of the show because she didn't want to give it, she didn't want it out there and about. She. She wanted to us to close, close down, close ranks on it, so to speak. So that song was never supposed to be a single. It got attention and the radio started getting behind it and moving it up the charts. It took a life of its own. And I have heard again through the the grapevine here in Nashville that that MCA Records had a special meeting and said we either we get behind this or not. We got to make a decision. And they chose to get behind it. And they released it as a single. And before that happened, I was starting to get a. You know, normally songwriters, we don't get a lot of press. We're a little bit behind the scenes. We can choose to be as famous as we want if we hire someone to help drive that. But for the most part we're a little bit behind the curtains. And I started getting a lot of attention because of that lyric and because of that song and front some front page things on a couple in a couple of of newspapers in the country. You know, not front front page but on other sections, their living sections and such. And I called my mom and I said, I need to have a conversation with you and dad about the song. I said, how do you. This song is growing legs of its own. How do you feel about this? Because they're asking me about how I wrote it and I would like to be honest that I wrote it about Billy's passing, about his situation. And I'll never forget my mom said if it keeps one mother from having to go through this, we're behind you 100%.
- [18:08]
Buzz Knight
It's amazing.
- [18:10]
Sandy Knox
So yeah, bravo. Bravo is right. It ended up that is another song that I know for a fact from letters that I got and stuff that it affected people's way of thinking about hiv. Yeah. And you're right, it was the first song that was done about AIDS and hiv.
- [18:31]
Ryan Seacrest
We'll be right back with more of the Taking a Walk podcast.
- [18:37]
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- [19:44]
Sandy Knox
We can get massages at Sense's Spa, have a meet and greet with Black Panther.
- [19:48]
Unknown
Ooh, I love him. And I can't wait to sunbathe on the private island. And the kids will be fine.
- [19:53]
Sandy Knox
Girl, they're good. Exactly. While they hang in the kids club.
- [19:57]
Unknown
With Mickey Mouse, we can do our thing.
- [19:59]
Sandy Knox
Mm. And do it well all day.
- [20:03]
Unknown
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- [21:09]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [21:39]
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- [22:13]
Ryan Seacrest
Welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast.
- [22:16]
Buzz Knight
If there's a piece of advice you and your current life could give to your younger self, what would that advice be?
- [22:27]
Sandy Knox
You know, I. I have to say that would be don't give up. I can put it in a way. I don't know if I can use a little bit of salty language.
- [22:38]
Buzz Knight
Of course you can. Okay, I'll cover. I'll cover my ears. No.
- [22:42]
Sandy Knox
When. Right before I was getting ready to make the move here, my dad took me to lunch at one of his favorite restaurants in Houston. And I said, do you have any advice for me? And I. And again, I'm 24 years old. And my dad said, number one, he said, don't take no for an answer. And number two, and he said this in Latin, and I can't remember it in Latin, but it was, don't let the bastards grind you down. But he said it in Latin. That's so great. Yeah, I would. If. So this. Sandy would still adhere to that. To the. That advice of just like, keep going. It'll.
- [23:26]
Buzz Knight
You know, so you've obviously had people in your life that have, you know, been important, whether it be your dad or others that have took the time and. And mentored. I would imagine, knowing you for just a little bit on this. This interview, you are mentoring people at this moment, right now. Is that true?
- [23:51]
Sandy Knox
I am going to say yes. I. I don't do this too much anymore, but I used to teach a lot of songwriting workshops with the nsai, the Nashville Songwriting Association. I was on their board for many years. I've taught, you know, classes. I have done workshops. But if I can just say, the woman who has been so involved in helping me get the audiobook waiting My life, if it were a musical to. Where it is, is a woman who's sitting off here to my side right now, and her name is Manon Ward. And I know that not only has she been a gift in helping me because she's like 36 years younger than me, and she knows how to maneuver through all the. The tech stuff and the social stuff, but she was the project manager and the creative director on this project. She's also a singer songwriter and a very good singer songwriter. And many times she has said to me, what a gift this has been working with you on this. I've learned so much. So I can proudly say I'm pretty sure I'm still mentoring a few people here and there, but she has let me know many times that, that. That's what's happening.
- [25:08]
Buzz Knight
You know, there's somebody that occurred to me that was on the podcast, and I don't know if you know him personally. You probably do. Named Charlie Peacock.
- [25:19]
Sandy Knox
Know the name? I don't think we've ever met.
- [25:21]
Buzz Knight
Oh, well, you. You have parallels that are so interesting in terms of your approach to your work. In that my view of it in From Afar is much like Charlie. For you, it's not about this world of stardom and notoriety. It's about doing amazing work, putting creative things out in different ways in different forms. And that's similar to Charlie as well. So it just occurred to me as we were talking, the unique parallels, you know, the. The. The mentoring aspect, the label aspect in terms of, you know, creating as well. But I just didn't know if you knew him. Tell me about Wrinkled Records.
- [26:14]
Sandy Knox
I did. Well, I did a CD on my own in about 19. I want to say 1997. 98. And the name of the CD was called Pushing Forward. He never married, no kids. And it was all about kind of songs that had so many songs that have been put on hard hold but never quite got cut because the artist might be a little. Little shy about recording some of the songs or whatever. Because I definitely write a little left of center, and I don't write. I don't have tunnel vision when I write when. What I mean by that is that I don't sit down and go, I'm going to write a country song. I just sit down and try to write a good song. And wherever it falls, I think I predominately write adult contemporary pop. I think that's. That's what I write. But I did the cd and my attorney at the time, who I adore, and he's not my attorney anymore, but we still talk all the time. And he said, you can't put your age in the title. And I said, why? Because at the time, I think I was 38. 37. 38. And he said, well, you just can't because of the industry. And I said, well. Well, that's what's wrong with the industry. I said, I'm gonna put my. I'm gonna put my age in the title. So as a little joke to get under his. Under him a little bit more, I said, I'm going to name the label, my label, that I'm putting it out on Wrinkled Records. And he just laughed. So anyways, fast forward about 10 years later. I moved back to Texas for a while when my father was declining, and I was in Austin. And when I moved back here in 2006, I decided to resurrect Wrinkled Records. And I decided I was going to go for a lot of my artist friends who should have had deals and didn't get deals because of maybe they were considered, they were over the hill or whatever. So I went for some of my friends who I knew deserved a record deal. And so Wrinkled Records kind of was geared toward that demographic of baby boomers and people over 40, 45 years old. So that's what Wrinkled was about. And we did several great records. And, you know, we did. We did a couple with BJ Thomas, who was one of the most loveliest men to work with. I can't say enough wonderful things about that kind, lovely man. And what an incredible vocalist. His voice was so good up until the time he passed. But Wrinkled was. We were going for critically acclaimed stuff. We were. That's what I was going for. Not radio. Gotta get on the radio. It was more about, let's make really good, some really good music. And we did. We did about five or six projects that were all critically acclaimed. And then it was time I decided to. As I started bringing myself to get more and more serious about Waiting, which had been in my head for so many years, I brought Wrinkled to a close and eventually just let it go dormant again. So that was Wrinkled. It was so much fun, and I worked with so many people that I. I had always believed in, you know, always believed in them and believed they needed to have a record.
- [29:28]
Buzz Knight
It seems like a sort of a sister label to some extent, to this thing called oh Boy Records that John Prine founded.
- [29:37]
Sandy Knox
Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm not. And I'm not that familiar with that. That label. I have to be. I have to be honest. I'm not familiar. But, yeah, I would assume that, you know John. What I know of John, he always was a little left of center himself.
- [29:51]
Buzz Knight
Yeah, that's what. That's what occurs to me. So you're super excited about the outcome here, finally getting out to the public. Brag about that a little bit in terms of the amount of work and how excited you are to be breaking new ground and taking it to the public.
- [30:09]
Sandy Knox
Yeah, the waiting that is spelled like, you know, the weight of the world or how much do you weigh? It's spelled that way, but it does kind of mean. Because I would hear people say this. I went to this place, this diet center, after a bad boyfriend. I wanted to lose a few pounds, went to this place. This is what the seed was Born for this audiobook. And basically so many people had said, basically, I'll just put it in a nutshell that people had said if I could just lose 20 pounds, my boyfriend would come back, things would be better, I'd be healthy. They had a whole list of things that would be better if they just lost 20 pounds. And that kind of put the. The seed in my head where I started working on, you know, everybody's waiting for something to happen, and it's also that they want to lose that 20 pounds of weight. That's when it'll happen. So Waiting is an audiobook slash musical. And I call it a boozy call because I've joined those words together. I've been working on it for many, many years. It's taken on. Through the years it took on, it morphed into a couple of other things. At one point, I thought it was just going to be a. Like a Broadway musical, a live show, a musical. And then at the beginning of COVID and the lockdown, I started thinking about it in another way and thinking, you know, I think. I think I could write this whole thing. And I think I have done voiceover work in my life. So I thought, I think I could narrate it. And I started writing it. And once I put on that cap, it poured out of me and the songs started pouring out of me and the song ideas, and then it became easy. But all the other stuff we had to do in the background, recording the narrations, getting all the songs written and recorded, we're talking about this project happened over the. From the moment the seed entered, the thought entered my mind. To us releasing this next week when it goes when it's available for sale almost 30 years, about 28 years. And, you know, there were times life got in the way. You know, I took care of my parents when they were. They were aging. I had some health issues and had to put some things on the back burner. But I'm so happy about it. I did some focus groups with a few people and let about 25 people hear it. Not only did it get nothing but positive feedback after people heard it, I would get really heartfelt emails from them where they shared their story about their battle with their own body and losing weight, keeping weight off or being too thin, or how it affected other members of their family. So I think we've got a pretty universal topic everybody can relate to. And I will tell you, it's. It's poignant, it's fun. There's moments that are very sad. It's uplifting, but I take you on a journey of all these characters that I met at this place. My characters are loosely based on these people, but all these characters that I met and their song and what they were going through. I write songs for each of the chapters. And I don't know if I told you this, but it's only five and a half hours long. It's not like a 20 hour audiobook. It's pretty direct and to the point. You know, when you write songs, you've got to begin a story, tell the story, and end the story inside three to five minutes. And I had that same attitude with the book. I thought, I'm gonna just keep it pretty succinct and just. I'm just gonna try to keep it moving all the time, the storyline, and not have it go on and on and on forever. Cause I get bored pretty easy. I'm a little ADD. I don't know if you can tell that, but I get distracted pretty easily. So that was important that I KE in that little time capsule.
- [34:12]
Buzz Knight
Congratulations on bringing it home. It's. It sounds so amazing. So I do want to close. I want to ask you, is there a trend in music in the industry that excites you and is there a trend that you wish would just go away?
- [34:31]
Sandy Knox
I don't know that I have. Well, I can tell you I listen to a whole lot of different music. If you went into my playlist, I'm all over the place and what I listen to. Is there a trend that I wish would go away? I can tell you that the other day when I was scrolling on something probably on Facebook, I came across some AI generated songs. And that's a little disconcerting. That's a little scary. And they weren't very good and they felt robotic. That does not. That doesn't make me happy. Especially when I think about the hard work you put into making the perfect song, getting that song written so that, that's. That. I wouldn't mind seeing that go away.
- [35:16]
Buzz Knight
You know, I was kind of reading your mind thinking, I'll bet she's going to go towards AI. I just had a sneaking suspicion. Sandy.
- [35:26]
Sandy Knox
Sorry. Yeah, that's perfect. There's a beauty in when you read a lyric of another writer and you are just like, oh my God, that's such a beautiful line. How did they do that? You know, there's a joy in discovering great lyrics.
- [35:43]
Buzz Knight
I love the contagious spirit you have. Congratulations on everything. It sounds like it's only the beginning. So you. You have a lot of stuff going on in a great way and it's an honor, Sandy Knox, to be able to talk to you on Taking a Walk. Thanks for being on.
- [36:00]
Sandy Knox
Thank you for having me Buzz. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this episode of.
- [36:06]
Ryan Seacrest
The Taking a Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your.
- [36:10]
Sandy Knox
Friends and follow us so you never miss an episode.
- [36:13]
Ryan Seacrest
Taking a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts.
- [36:23]
Unknown
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- [36:53]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [37:26]
Sandy Knox
Please welcome aboard the Johnson Family.
- [37:29]
Ryan Seacrest
The whole fam's here for the Disney Cruise, so you know we came to play and listen. The adults are gonna have a ball. First we're chilling in the infinity pool, onto massages at Sense's Spa, then gliding into Star Wars Hyperspace Lounge for a toast. We're even gonna kick back with Mickey on Disney's private Island. That's how we get down cause Disney Cruise Line is where we came to play. Hey it's me, Earhart.
- [37:58]
Sandy Knox
Mind if I pick the next song?
- [38:00]
Ryan Seacrest
Listen, even though we're eating better, people.
- [38:02]
Sandy Knox
Who'Ve had one heart attack are at higher risk of another.
- [38:06]
Ryan Seacrest
But Repatha Evolocumab plus a statin lowers LDL C, our bad cholesterol and our heart attack risk. So let's talk to our doctor about Repatha.
- [38:15]
Unknown
Do not take Repatha if you're allergic to it. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing or swallowing, swelling of the face, lips, tongue, throat or arms. Common side effects include runny nose, sore throat, common cold symptoms flu or flu like symptoms, back pain, high blood sugar and redness, pain or bruising at the injection site. View the important safety information in our banner. Listen to your heart. Ask your doctor about Repatha.
- [38:41]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway, now through August 12th. Get big savings on your favorite products for the little ones in the family and earn four times points to use for discounts on groceries or on gas. Shop in store or online for items like Earth's Best Yogurt Smoothie, Gerber Pouches, Happy Baby Pouches, Huggies, Natural Baby Wipes, pediasure Bottles, Earth's Best Crunchy Sticks and Gerber Yogurt Melts, snacks and earn four times points. Offer ends August 12th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [39:12]
Unknown
This is an iHeart podcast.