← Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
Takin' A Walk - Music History with Buzz Knight
The Simon Phillips Interview -A Look at Music History with a Drumming Legend
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- [00:01]
Announcer
Taking a Walk.
- [00:01]
Simon Phillips
It created some interesting sounding records or tunes, let's say recordings. But nobody would have guessed what I was thinking of at the time, you know. Yeah, it's just. I like this cross pollinization.
- [00:15]
Buzz Knight
I'm Buzz Knight and welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast. Now you know that feeling when you hear a drum fill so precise, so musically intelligent that it makes you stop whatever you're doing and just listen? Let's call that the Simon Phillips effect. For over five decades, from backing Toto through their biggest hits to session work with everyone from the who to Judas Priest, this British drumming legend has left his mark on iconic recordings for his entire career. But here's what most people don't know. Behind those thunderous grooves and jaw dropping chops is a restless creative spirit who's never been content to rest on his laurels. He keeps pushing into new sonic territory. He blends jazz fusion roots with contemporary production techniques in ways that would make drummers half his age envious. And we'll talk to Simon Phillips next on Taking a Walk.
- [01:11]
Simon Phillips
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [01:15]
Buzz Knight
Every music lover has that moment you hear or read something that stops you in your tracks. A forgotten B side, an offhand comment in an interview, a connection. Nobody else noticed that. Curiosity. That's where Claude comes in.
- [01:30]
Lexus Advertiser
Claude is AI for people who don't.
- [01:32]
Buzz Knight
Stop at the surface. It helps you explore the real stories behind the music. Not with quick answers, but by working through the discovery with you, matching your level of curiosity. Try Claude for free at Claude AI.
- [01:46]
Lexus Advertiser
Buzz Lexus believes in the importance of standards. One of my standards I never want to be late. I always want to show up on time. For Lexus, the standard is simple experience. Amazing. Their benchmarks aren't stats or specs, they're feelings. Exhilaration, joy. That sense your car was designed just for you. Machines built to make you feel more human.
- [02:13]
Buzz Knight
Because a car that doesn't make you.
- [02:15]
Lexus Advertiser
Feel something is a car that stops short of amazing experience. Amazing at your Lexus dealer.
- [02:23]
Buzz Knight
This episode of Taking a Walk is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether I'm booking my next vacation or going to a concert, Chase Sapphire Reserve is my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times points on all the purchases I make through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. No matter where I'm walking. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [03:17]
Simon Phillips
I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.
- [03:24]
Ryan Seacrest
It's the rage bait.
- [03:27]
Simon Phillips
It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.
- [03:37]
Announcer
NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News, reporting for America, Limu Gamu and Doug. Here we have the limu emu in.
- [03:52]
Simon Phillips
Its natural habitat, helping people customize their.
- [03:55]
Announcer
Car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.
- [04:00]
Simon Phillips
Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us.
- [04:09]
Ryan Seacrest
Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty, Liberty.
- [04:13]
Simon Phillips
Liberty Savings Variant written by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company. Affiliates excludes Massachusetts.
- [04:20]
Announcer
Taking a Walk?
- [04:21]
Interviewer
The one and only Simon Phillips. Welcome to Taking a Walk.
- [04:25]
Simon Phillips
Thank you. Good to be here. Good to be walking. Yes.
- [04:30]
Interviewer
So we like, because of the title of the podcast, posing this opening question.
- [04:36]
Buzz Knight
Sir, if you had the opportunity to.
- [04:40]
Interviewer
Take a walk with somebody, living or dead, who would that person be and where would you take that walk with them?
- [04:48]
Simon Phillips
Oh, interesting, interesting question. Well, it would have to be somebody that's very fit because where I live we have lots of trails, hiking trails, and in fact, I have one that starts literally outside of where I. Outside my gate. And I've never done it. You can actually walk up to the top of the mountains, the Topo Topa mountains, which is 6,400ft. I've been up to about 3,000ft, so that's an hour and a bit. So it's a, it's a tough walk because it's, it's all uphill. So I'd have to take into consideration somebody that could really do that. That's interesting. I still think probably the. One of the most interesting people in rock and roll still today's Pete Townsend, I think, and he's fit too. So I always have a wonderful talk with him whenever we speak and I, yeah, I think he would be the most, most interesting person in terms of just a fast, wide range of interests and knowledge. And yeah, I think that would be, that would be pretty amazing. But there's a lot of people to choose from also, you know.
- [06:10]
Interviewer
Oh, I'd love to be a fly on the wall for all of them, but certainly with, with Pete as Well, you had some spectacular history with. With he and the band, didn't you?
- [06:23]
Simon Phillips
Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
- [06:26]
Interviewer
What do you most fondly recall from those times?
- [06:31]
Simon Phillips
Well, the music, obviously. He. His writing is just spectacular. And I always say to him, these songs play themselves, which I'm not sure he takes as a compliment or not, but I mean it as a compliment because I love it when a song, you sit down, you hear the tune, and then you think you put headphones on and you. You know how you count in, or you listen to. To a click intro or whatever it is, and it just seems to sit well. Everything sits well. All the transitions work. Everything is. Is. Is wonderful, and I always love that. But I think it's our talks outside of music that I really find fascinating. And I can pick various times during the times that we've worked together, especially when I've worked with them in a producing sense, too. We did a project called the Iron man, and that was. Oh, God, when was that? 87. 1987. And so I had some very intimate conversations during that because it was just us two in the control room, you know, so those. I think those are what I remember most, you know, and of course, just some of the funny, funny things that he says and happen and. Yeah, it's great.
- [07:46]
Interviewer
Yeah, that's awesome. Well, we got a lot to catch up on. We've got the super group Darwin and that release, which I want to talk about. But the fascinating thing about you, among many things, is you're constantly, in my.
- [08:03]
Buzz Knight
View, in a state of invention and reinvention.
- [08:07]
Interviewer
What do you suppose is the driving influence to such curiosity and great creative superpowers?
- [08:17]
Simon Phillips
I think it's more to do with learning. I love to always be in a learning situation and also now running my own band and even producing records and engineering them and mixing them, I'm always learning. I think that's what it is. And always curious to figure out maybe different ways of doing things from a compositional point of view. I have no idea where that that comes from. And when working with Darwin on these tunes, it'll start out with a. A basic skeleton of. Of the tune. And I might. I guess I go into what would be termed a more of an arranging situation where I would rearrange the song and then work with it to make it cohesive. And then the question is what to do next. And the thing is about the type of music we play, which, let's say is prog rock, you know, for better. For want of a better term, you don't have to stick to a 3 minute 30 format so we can go off and do all these wonderful little adventures musically which used to happen in the early 70s. Yes. For a prime example, they would have little. They were little concertos, you know. They were wonderful. I don't know where it comes from. It just goes, how about this? And then I develop it and then I go. I wonder if Darwin's gonna like this because I just made a left turn and then I arrange it so that then it comes back to the. The tune and it all makes sense. I send him a demo which is all or MIDI instruments. I use keyboards which are here on the left because I don't play guitar. I wish I did because it's very hard to. To replicate guitar driven music with a keyboard. It's. They're two different animals. It's. It's quite amazing both harmonically and sonically or two. But I do my best to recreate. I call it my Yan Hammer guitar sound, you know, and use of course all the wonderful virtual plugins we have nowadays. You know, acoustic guitars, 12 strings. And then I send it, I send him the demo and he most of the time comes back. Oh wow. Oh, never would have thought of that. Great. You know, and then he might come back with some more suggestions and that, that's kind of how they, they all come together really.
- [10:56]
Interviewer
Now you speaking specifically about Greg Howe?
- [11:00]
Simon Phillips
Not at that point. No. No. We're. We're still working on the composition of the. The actual composition itself. Okay. I know that in the palette that I have to. To work with, I've got Greg who will do cover all the lead playing. I've got Jesse Siebenberg who will cover all acoustic playing and a lot of the clean guitars. And I've got Darwin who will cover all the heavy guitars. That's his, his main thing. But what's really cool is Darwin's use of unconsc conventional tunings. Every song has some different tuning. Even if it's just a. A drop. A droppy. You know, like A E flat. Even if it's a B. He'll take that lower string and tune it down which then changes all his shapes and changes the tone. It changes. Changes the sound of the guitar and introduce different voicings. Plus I have, we have Derek Sherinian who plays, you know, certain parts and we also have J3PO Julian Pollock who's amazing and he covers other parts keyboard wise and occasionally I, I also throw in a few keyboard things especially when I'm mixing because once I'm in mixing mode, I. It's like, it's like cooking. It really is. You're putting everything together. And often I'll get there and I've got everybody in, I've got all their parts, and yet something's missing. And that's when I, you know, connect all the gear up and come up with something, whatever it is. It's usually some sort of keyboard, just something to bolster something that's probably already there, but it needs to be a different sound.
- [12:50]
Interviewer
Stuff like that at those moments of experimentation. Is that one of the happiest moments in life for you?
- [12:58]
Simon Phillips
Oh, when it works, yes, but only when it works. It could be disastrous sometimes, I think. Then, then at the end of the day, when you've got a mix and it's sounding. I call it, oh, this sounds like a record now. You know, the mix will sound not like a record for a very long time, perhaps. It really depends. And you're still kind of, okay, that needs a little bit more of this. Or maybe I can change the, the perspective of, of everything. But once you get that, then it's like, ah, okay, then I'll print it and then I'll send it to Darwin and then he'll listen to it and he'll give me his version of it. And sometimes it's not there yet and I'm going, okay, what is it? I'm thinking, I think it's sounding pretty damn good. So what am I missing? That's the, that, that, that's the essence then. And again, it's a, it's a learning curve. He said, well, I really want to hear more of this. And I said, well, there's a lot of that, but okay, why, what is it that's not knocking him out about it? What, what am I missing? So, and then you, you have to kind of. You have to try to change your ears. Okay, I'll put that set away now. Let's have that set and plug them in and, and figure out what it is. And it might take a little while. It might take also getting away from it and moving on to a different song, which is. I do that quite a lot actually. And we're very lucky these days to be in the digital world. We can do that in a matter of minutes. In the olden days in the analog world, you couldn't do that. You really had to get the mix while it was up because, well, you've got degradation of tape. That's, that's the one of the first things. But it's also recalling all your Sounds and I mean, it's a nightmare. A big. A big mix recall could take all day, the way we used to do it on an ssl, because it's not just the console, it's all your outboard equipment. You have to write copious notes and then you compare it to the sound of the mix that you last had and you go, that's not quite the same, is it? You know, so. And I'm very old school in that fashion, even though I still use quite a bit of outboard gear. And it's very important to make copious notes about all the settings on each piece of equipment and how it was patched. And then you go flip backwards forwards between the. The original mix and your. Your recall, as it were, and they go, oh, okay, that's sounding pretty, pretty good. Then you can work with it. So we're very lucky. Now it's just a push of a button, you know, select a something on your drive, double click it, it opens up in Pro Tools, and you're almost there. So it wasn't like that in the. In the old days.
- [15:52]
Buzz Knight
I have a feeling, with your time.
- [15:54]
Interviewer
With your commercial studio that you had that. That really obviously made a tremendous impact. And then sort of freeing yourself from.
- [16:03]
Buzz Knight
The commercial studio and then moving your.
- [16:05]
Interviewer
Studio back into the. The home has given you, maybe, is.
- [16:09]
Buzz Knight
It fair to say this added sense of creative flair?
- [16:15]
Simon Phillips
I know, I don't think so. I think all the scenarios that I've worked in, you just. You have to make it work. I was primarily taught by Mike Oldfield. He was the guy that helped me become an engineer. And it was purely because the. He is a very good engineer himself, but he was done with it. He wanted to have someone else do it. But the problem was finding a musician that could work with him as an engineer because he gets tired of having to explain, you know, if something's a little more complex. Not, not all engineers would be able to do that. A lot can, of course, because they're musicians themselves. But in this case, no, he. He sent the engineer home that we. That we were using and plunked the Neve manual on my lap of an 8108 console, which is around 1980. Go. That came out in about 80, 81, I think. And that was it. And then he left. I'll be back in three hours. Love that story. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was. It was amazing. But here's the thing. It's something that I always wanted to do since I was actually very young and used to mess around with my mom. My mom used to have two tape recorders, two Reeboks, G36s, that's right, tube Reeboxes. And I used to bounce from one to the other. I was recording stereo drums when I was literally. I mean, I don't know how old I was maybe 12 or something in the. In the living room and. And then. But I was also carted around a lot of the London studio, especially the BBC, by my dad, to watch sessions. So I kind of grew up in the studio, but I would have loved to have had one even when I was very young. So I did understand the basic signal path of what happens. It was just a question. In those days, you couldn't. It was very hard to go from one side of the glass to the other. And when you were in the control room, you just had to kind of stand or sit if there was a place to sit and listen to the playback and then leave, you know, go. Go back out to the studio. It was very strict in those days, but I was always watching over the engineer's shoulders. And if I particularly liked the sound that he was getting on the drum kit, I. I'd look and go, what is he doing? You know? And nine times out of ten, the great engineers are really not doing that much. That's the amazing thing. Working with. With Elliot Shiner, Bob Clear Mountain. Oh, I mean, great English engineers, too. John Punter, it's hard to remember sometimes Greg Walsh, that that was it. They. They weren't doing that much. Nico Bolas, you know, how. How do you do that? And. And it still fascinates me that how. And it's. It's really all to do with. Is. It's to do with obviously, the ability. And you've learned how to do it from the engineers you were working under in. In big studios, you know, taking that Ken Scott, there's another one, you know, Dennis Maai. And I watch them so closely. I used to get to sessions early to obviously set up the kit, but watch the maintenance engineer align the tape machine. I wanted to understand, what is he doing? You know, why. Why every time do I turn up an air, I hear a 1kHz tone, you know, I go, what is he doing? I used to sit there with a cup of coffee and watch, and he's there aligning, you know, pulling all the meters like this. And. And I said, I want to be able to do that. And the only way to do that was to get my own studio.
- [20:08]
Interviewer
That's it.
- [20:09]
Simon Phillips
And I learned how to do it. And then I started experimenting with alignments and which we all did in the 80s, you know, especially when it wasn't very corporate, when the, when the studio wasn't run in a very corporate manner like EMI or Air Studios or I would imagine capital in those days. The more individual, like private studios like, like Ramport, which was Pete Townsend's, and all these other studios that opened up with the younger engineers who are like, okay, we've got these new Atari MTR 90s. Let's mess around with them a little bit. Let's, you know, let's put some more level onto tape. And it's all, it's stuff I loved. Always loved the technical side of it.
- [20:51]
Announcer
We'll be right back with more of the Taking a Walk Podcast.
- [20:56]
Buzz Knight
Every music story has layers most people never discover. The session musician who created that signature lick, the studio accident that became a classic sound, the cultural moment that made a song possible. That's when you need Claude AI built for minds that can't stop at the first answer. Comb through interviews, biographies, recording session notes, Claude analyzes up to 200 pages instantly and can reveal connections across decades of music history. Need to verify claims about music legends? Claude searches the web and cross references sources with citations you can check. But here's what's different. Claude doesn't just give you quick facts. It works through the problem with you, step by step. It's built for people who know that understanding music means understanding the culture, technology and human stories behind the sounds. Whether you're researching your favorite artist, exploring genre evolution, or discovering untold music history, Claude matches your curiosity about what really happened. See why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner and try for free and at Claude AI Buzz this episode of Taking a Walk is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether I'm booking my next vacation or going to a concert, Chase Sapphire Reserve is my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations.
- [22:27]
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- [23:06]
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- [23:33]
Buzz Knight
Because a car that doesn't make you.
- [23:34]
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- [23:41]
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- [25:15]
Announcer
Welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast.
- [25:18]
Interviewer
Who were the whether they be drummers or other musicians who were, you know, at a young age when you were observing everything, those players that really influenced you?
- [25:30]
Simon Phillips
To this day, I think it has to start with my age. I, I grew up in a very musical household. My dad was a, he had a Dixielam dance band. So I, I listened to a lot of his music. But I would say in terms of the dramas, well, obviously it was Buddy Rich, Louis Bellson to a certain extent, Gene Krupa. I think it was more because the, the music I heard Gene play was a little more old fashioned. It was more 30s, 40s. So Benny Goodman Quartet. You know I preferred the sound of a bigger band, big, you know, loud trumpets and more modern playing, which Buddy had still. I mean, you know, he was playing in the 30s, so. But he transformed big band drumming along with all the other amazing drummers. But also I started getting into rock and roll too. And I was more influenced by rock groups that had brass sections because I grew up with brass players. So that was a sound that I was so used to. I wasn't quite ready for the sound of just guitar, bass and drums. When an organization. We didn't have many synthesizers back then. We didn't have a Fender Rhodes, for example, until, you know, a bit later. So bands. I think Chicago Transit Authority was the first rock and roll record I really got into. And also my first guitar hero, Terry Cath. I was more. He was more my hero than Jimmy Hendrix was. Isn't that funny? And actually, I learned later that Jimmy Love Terry, loved the band and wanted to produce their next record. Unfortunately, he didn't. He didn't make it. So it's. I. And still to this day, I put on some old Chicago cuts from Chicago five and one more. Danny Seraphin. In my opinion, one of the most musical dramas out there is all. The way he played those tracks was so inventive. Beautiful. I learned a lot from. From Danny. And I've told him. I mean, I. I remember doing. I was aligning a. A system up to do a surround mix. And one of the best things you can do, once you've done all the technical stuff with pink noise and a meter, it's like, listen to music on it. How does it sound? Does it sound okay? That's so important. So I get my little collection of DTS and Dolby surround stuff and play it. And I think there was a. I had a. A surround of Chicago 5. Yeah. And it just. I was like, oh, wow. I actually called him. I said, danny, I'm listening to Chicago 5 in surround right now. And you're playing is awesome. It's fantastic. You know, so it's great to be able to do that. That. That's lovely. To be able to, you know, say to somebody, straight to them, you know, he played amazingly on this record. It's great.
- [28:36]
Interviewer
Oh, that's wonderful sharing that. And I'm so glad to hear you talk about Chicago in that way, because certainly for their great career, I think for the meticulous nature of the way that band put it all together and the beautiful nature, it's often underappreciated, you know, I believe, you know.
- [28:59]
Simon Phillips
Yeah, yeah. I was Very lucky. We. I actually got to work with Jim Panko on Total Record and I was engineering that record. It was the last one I did with him falling in between. And we had this one track which had this outro which was. We co composed pretty much everything on that. I think that was kind of my riff at the end. Came up with this kind of weird thing in, in six. But everybody seemed to like it, which was great. And I think Page, David Page said let's get, let's get Jim on this. And he could do a real Chicago type arrangement. So I finally got to meet and work with him and it was, it was great. And recording too. That's the other great thing. Putting a microphone in front of his trombone and trumpet player and the tenor player. That's really exciting, you know. Yeah, it's great.
- [29:49]
Interviewer
A couple of other pieces of your great music history want to touch upon. First of all, what are your reflections of your time with the great Jeff Beck?
- [29:59]
Simon Phillips
Yeah, that was, that was pretty classic actually. Jeff and I had a wonderful synergy and I think especially when it came to writing the music for There and Back. We had been working on that record. We started in 1978. Jan Hammer came over. He had written, I think, five tunes and we cut them all at Ramport. Just Jeff, Jan and myself. No bass player. Jan was playing, you know, moot bass. Jeff. A couple of the tracks were great, but Jeff wasn't happy with everything. And then we, we went on tour. We went to Japan in 78 with Stanley Clark and then we did some shows in Europe in 79. And then Jeff would, you know, he'd asked me to come down and I had introduced him to Tony Hymas, who's. We used to do a lot of sessions together and we were also in the Jack Bruce band together. So we did a lot of playing. We were playing one day and running through some of these tunes and I, I, I realized, I said, tony, Jeff needs material. We need to get together and start writing. And that was kind of the start of the, the, the, the style that I wrote in. It was very much Tony, Tony's influence. You know, my harmonic knowledge was very limited and. But Tony's is vast. So I might have a simple melody or might have an idea of what we should do. Like the Pump, for example, actually all of them, space boogie. But Tony was the one that really said okay. He took it and then of course harmonized everything and made it, you know, sound, sound amazing. And Jeff loved it. That, that was the thing. And that's what we ended up doing for There and Back. So Jan wrote some of the tunes, Tony and I wrote some of the other tunes. And that was really the start of my writing in terms of what became protocol and all that music. But we had a wonderful time. We did. I wish we could have done more. And I did continue to work with Jeff actually, on another project that didn't really come to fruition, sadly, but it was a wonderful, wonderful relationship. Yeah.
- [32:21]
Interviewer
Another band that. Well, they were on this podcast, actually. Roland and Kurt from Tears for Fears. Tell me about your time with Tears for Fears.
- [32:30]
Simon Phillips
Oh, it was very short. It was. It was just a session, you know, but it was interesting because I got to. To. I. I didn't meet Kurt. It was just Roland and David Bascom, who was the producer and engineer, co producer. It was very interesting. But we. We got to. To chat a lot, which was. Which was great. And the tune was lovely too. Well, it was on the Sewing the Seeds of Love that was the album. But that was. But basically it was just. It was just a. It was. It was a session.
- [33:04]
Interviewer
You're known for this incredible blend of power, but also finesse. How do you sort of decide when a song needs you to sort of hold back and. And then, you know, those other moments where it's just, you know, the power has to shine through?
- [33:23]
Simon Phillips
Well, experience obviously has a lot to do with it. When I was younger, I was always trying to do something a bit different, which didn't always work. And the producer of the session, you know, was over, you know, play it simpler play. And I was like, oh, okay, you know, but that's just youth. That was me trying stuff and introducing maybe something different to. To the tune. I used to. What I call it, cross pollinization. I would. If. If in those days, I turn up to a session. It was very specifically. It was a. It was a rock session. Heavy rock session. We didn't have heavy metal in that day. In those days, they. That term hadn't been invented. I'm talking about the 70s when I was like 17, 18, doing. Doing sessions. I would always think, okay, if I'm playing on a rock session, how would Bernard Purdy play this? And so I tried to introduce a big element of soul music. Well, we call it that. So an R B was a different. It was a different type of. Type of music then. Or funk, because I used to listen to a lot of funk music. I mean, play. I used to play along to Billy Paul, Isaac Hayes, and then of course, you know, OJs, the meters, little Feet. Oh gosh, it's hard to recall everything.
- [34:56]
Interviewer
But that's quite a playlist so far. Simon.
- [34:58]
Simon Phillips
I gotta say, I mean, I love, love those grooves. I love to really get those side. Those groups. Donny Hathaway, Aretha Franklin with, with Bernard Purdy on, on drums, used to love that. And so, and, and to, to me at that time, especially in England, rock didn't groove, didn't have a deep groove. Ian Pace, Deep Purple always had a great groove. Cozy Powell had a great groove. Carmine Appease. But a lot of times outside of that, I felt it's lacking this, it's a little on top. And that kind of comes for, oh, of course, Bonzo as well, John Bonham. A lot of that comes from our upbringing in the 50s and 60s of Dixieland and skiffle and playing jazz. So the one big difference between that is in, in England anyway, jazz was kind of forward motion, like a little on top of the beat. But rock was, was more back. And I, the. All the stuff I was listening to was like that. But I wasn't hearing it in a lot of other records. So that's why I would go, right, Howard, Bernard, play this. And I imagined kind of. And I started playing like that, although nobody would recognize it, but that's what was in my mind. Alternatively, when I was doing funk sessions of which we, we did a lot of, you know, I would play a lot more splashier, a lot more open. My sound obviously is not a typical R B sound. It's much more life, you know, the Tom's Ring. And so I would actually play it more like, okay, how would Ian Pace play this? You know, and that's the, the mindset. And it created some interesting sounding records or tunes, let's say recordings. But nobody would have guessed what I was thinking of at the time. And it goes also in some of the fields that I would play, I would, you know. Yeah, it's just. I like this cross pollinization. And I think the, the more sessions that I did, the more I was working with great engineers, great producers and other great musicians where timekeeping was so important. And I think one of the reasons I got so much work as a, as a kid, I mean, my busiest year of sessions was when I was 19, 1976. It was. It's. When I look at it now, I go, how the hell did I do that? Three sessions a day, pretty much every day, unless I was on an album project, which was two weeks, which was great. You know, those are the real rock and roll sessions. Roger Glover Jack Bruce, White Snake. And I think it just taught me an awful lot. And it was a learning curve. It was a big learning curve. Some sessions were difficult because I couldn't figure out quite how to do it, you know. But the guidance of all the great musicians I played with, you know, I mean, Herbie Flowers, for example, Ray Cooper, Alan Parker. It was great training. It really was. And then. Then also being interested in the production side. So it's just, you know, it's taken many, many years to. And I'm still figuring it out, frankly.
- [38:28]
Interviewer
Is there one musical challenge, you know, whether it's involved with Darwin or Protocol or something you're dreaming up that you're most excited about tackling next?
- [38:39]
Simon Phillips
Well, my next project is actually the next Protocol album. I've been sitting in this room for the last month writing music. And for. I hadn't actually written music for. The only music I've written in. In the last couple of years, few years, has been Darwin arranging stuff for other productions. That's a whole different thing, but actual composition. So this is. I sat down, I said, what the hell am I gonna do? You know? So I recalled some old compositions. I wanted to listen to them. And one of them sparked off like, actually, this. I don't know why I never use this. This is actually pretty cool. So I transferred it from my old Yamaha QX3 sequencer, which still worked amazingly with these 3.5 discs of which round there, and they still worked. It was. I put it in. Wow. It came up and then had to transfer that to Pro Tools midi. And then I started work. That was kind of the starting point. It just went on and on and on from there. So now I have. I think I have 50, 51 minutes of music so far.
- [39:56]
Interviewer
That's awesome. What's your most cherished piece of equipment in your studio that you have? Is there one particular piece of equipment? Recording equipment?
- [40:09]
Simon Phillips
I really think the. The unit that converts analog to digital. One of the big issues is digital sampling or conversion. If that is not really high quality, it's not going to sound great. And so when. After the fire, when I lost all my studio equipment, I had to sit down and design from scratch a new studio. But I didn't have anywhere to put it because I had no. I had no building and no house. So I thought, right, what piece of equipment do I really, really love? And I've worked with it a few times. What would it be? And it was the Bell Mothership. And that's sitting right there. You can see it 32 channels in 24 out an AES card. And I invested in that because I just felt I need something that sounds like a tape machine but without all the problems. That to me has been the most stable workhorse. It's amazing that thing. It's not does it sound better? I mean there's always this, this question from other conversions converters, you know we call them iOS. It's subtle, it's very subtle. But when I get somebody after I've recorded a record that maybe I've recorded previous times and they say oh by the way the, the. The. The drums sound amazing. Better than they used to sound. Really. Okay, that's good. It's a pleasing sound because it's a. That there's transformers in each one of those cards. There's eight transformers, one for each channel which gives it that. That's what gives it a bit of a coloration, a bit of a sound. It's not so cold. And really the biggest where you're. That. That is the final step between. You'll never get it back. That will be in digital and it's there. So you'd better make that good. You know it's. It's the same way as capturing onto tape. You've got to make it good going to tape. And I'm old fashioned. I. I was taught by. I grew up in the time where, where you got it right. First time we had a 24 track machine one you lost one track for Simti and you had to get the drum kit onto one piece of tape. You couldn't have spread over two tape machines because they're. They're. One of them is chasing. So it would just flange basically that that's what would happen. So you have to mix down. You used to record the drums. My drum kit down to eight tracks, you know. Now of course you can go separately and there's this concept of just record everything flat and we'll EQ it later. No, get the sound you want straight away. And when I record guitar exactly. I want to capture the sound that the guitar player is using at that time. I think that's very important because it's part of his character. So I will some two or three mics even and record that onto one channel just the way we used to do it. And it all sounded good. Glenn Johns always sounded great. You know, beautiful sounding records. Very simple. And he's no frills. He's just basic, you know, beautiful recording the way we used to do it. It was lovely.
- [43:48]
Interviewer
In closing is there if you had an Opportunity to sit down with your younger self and talk about those early session days. What would you tell yourself that maybe you've learned over time?
- [44:02]
Simon Phillips
Don't be so damn Bolshy. Open, open your mind up. I was very, was very narrow minded and I wanted to play something a certain way and the producer said, no, it's too complicated or whatever it is, try this, try that, you know. And I go, okay. You know, I think with age I've learned to be a lot more open minded, you know. So back in those days, it was the 80s, we started what I call underdubbing, especially for a drama. There was music already recorded and you had to play drums and take the drum machine off because now we had drum machines. I would listen to a track and I go, or sometimes I'd say mute. I don't want to hear the program drums, just let me hear the music with a click. And I'd listen to that and start formulating an idea. But when I went out to the studio and started putting headphones on and said, okay, send us the track, let's go, you know, and started playing, I played something totally different to what I thought I was going to play. And I think that was just experience and something I'd learned to play instinctively. And I've always, I think I've always played instinctively. I, I, I, sometimes I really don't know what to play and yet everything starts moving and making noise. It's weird. You know, sometimes if a track is kind of complex, I use that, I call it the Steve Gad method. Play it as simply as you can get away with. It's a, a wonderful thing because with complex music it's all very clever, but anything has to groove, it has to swing, it's got to have a groove. And that usually entails that you need to find a common denominator. I'll find a way of playing something that's complex, quite simple, and then, and I'll break it down. I might just run the, the track and just play, just hi hat, just for a bit. Then I'll listen to what's going to go, okay, let's put a backbeat there and then let's put a backbeat here and there may not be traditional bat be, especially if the thing is in 13, eight or something, you know. And then I'll find a way of connecting it all up where there's a common thread and that way the, the complex song now has a groove that people can relate to. And I think, I think that's very important. Everybody does it differently. But that's to me, I wrote even when I've written complicated music, like on the last album there was something in 19, I still try to make it. I'm not going to say danceable, but groovable, let's say. I think that's very important for the listener.
- [46:54]
Interviewer
Oh, this is so amazing. Well, listen, congratulations on Distorted Mirror. First of all the the Darwin project and also the work you're in the midst of. I knew you would be in the midst of it. Knowing the way you're you're always coming creating with protocol. What a fascinating walk through music history, through a great career that's constantly inventing and reinventing. Simon Phillips I'm so grateful to have you on Taking a Walk.
- [47:26]
Simon Phillips
Thank you very much. Thank you. Very enjoyable.
- [47:30]
Announcer
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- [47:47]
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- [51:44]
Simon Phillips
This is an iHeart podcast.