TFTL Ep5 Maybe U2 Does That, But I Doubt It - 9/4/90 - Sandstone Amphitheater

Summary

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Tales From The Lot - Episode 5

"Maybe U2 Does That, But I Doubt It"

Grateful Dead, 7/4/90 Sandstone Amphitheater, Kansas

Host: Will
Guest: Cameron Patrick
Release Date: October 5, 2021

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Will welcomes long-time Deadhead Cameron Patrick to reminisce about his adventure to the Grateful Dead’s July 4, 1990 show at Sandstone Amphitheater (Bonner Springs, Kansas). The conversation weaves personal history with Deadhead culture, focusing as much on the relationships and serendipity surrounding the show as the concert itself. Cameron shares how a single road trip—and picking up hitchhikers—set him on a trajectory that would shape the course of his life, ultimately leading to lasting friendships and meeting his wife. The duo breaks down the lot scene, the night’s unique heat, the Dead’s setlist choices, and the legacy of Brent Mydland.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Cameron’s Deadhead Journey and Show-Going Roots

• Background & Introduction:
  • Cameron’s 7th Grateful Dead show; started in Deer Creek, 1989 (Beer Creek).
  • Growing up near Indianapolis, music roots in Motown, classic rock, and Southern rock; his first concert was Molly Hatchet at the 1978 Indiana State Fair.
  • Initiated into the Dead by a roommate from New York alongside his sister.
• Notable Quote:

  “It was my sixth show...a year after my first show. My first show was at Deer Creek in '89.” – Cameron (01:02)

The Road to Sandstone – Serendipity and Deadhead Camaraderie

• Road Trip Story:
  • Cameron and his sister embarked on an overnight drive after Cameron’s night shift, rented a minivan for reliability, and brought along the classic lot sticker.
  • En route, they picked up two Delaware Deadheads (“The Flying Grilled Cheese Brothers”), fostering an enduring friendship—highlight of the trip.
  • A misplaced wallet set the stage for repeated reconnections at subsequent shows, leading to deep friendships and, years later, Cameron meeting his (now) wife through their shared friends at Bonnaroo Festival in 2007.
• Notable Quote:

  “I would not have the loving life with my wife that I have today if I had not picked up those hitchhikers at 7 in the morning on the 4th of July, 1990.” – Cameron (13:21)

The Show: July 4, 1990 – Kansas

Venue & Scene (13:46 – 17:30)

• Sweltering Heat:
  • “Oh, my goodness, it was so hot. I think 101 at showtime…the asphalt lot had to be 120.” – Cameron (13:53)
  • Bonner Springs described as a small, older, “shed” amphitheater lacking modern amenities.
• Band on Stage:
  • Stage small, no shade; band struggled visibly with the heat.
  • Bobby’s quip to the crowd after the first set:

    “We’ll be back in just a little bit when the sun goes down.” – Bobby (quoted) (15:24)

• Lot Culture:
  • “The Flying Grilled Cheese Brothers” started as stir fry vendors, switched to grilled cheese for practicality while hitchhiking—a staple Deadhead food story.

Setlist Breakdown & Musical Highlights

First Set Insights (15:52 – 17:30)

• Openers & Performance:
  • Cold Rain and Snow: Playful setlist trolling given the oppressive heat.
  • Jerry switches lyrics:

    “I've been trouble all my life,” (instead of original line) – Observed by Will (16:05)

  • Queen Jane: Noted as “smoking,” though the set overall felt “a little disjointed” due to the band’s discomfort.

Second Set & Brent Mydland’s Presence (17:30 – 22:45)

• Victim or the Crime > Foolish Heart Transition:
  • Unique: Only time Cameron saw this song order—typically reversed in later shows.
  • Will described Garcia’s playing as “gooey oozing, like music was just gooey oozing out of him.” (17:37)
  • Just a Little Light:
    • Brent’s standout track, poignant as his death occurred weeks later.
    • Will laments never seeing Brent live:

      “That's like the one song that I'm sad that I never got to hear.” – Will (19:02)

  • MIDI Experimentation:
    • Noted heavy use of MIDI sounds (“trumpets, oboes, and crystal bell sounds”), especially in Scarlet > Fire and drum segments.
    • Mickey Hart’s percussive work highlighted—uncertain if acoustic or triggered.

Emotional Resonance & Attendance Bias (22:23 – 23:04)

• Importance of Being There:
  • Cameron’s favorite Scarlet > Fire due to personal association.

    “There’s always that... emotional attachment to the versions you were there for…memories flashing when you listen to a recording of it.” – Cameron (22:23)

  • Will affirms, “Attendance bias is a real thing and it’s tangible.”

Road Song Tradition & End of the Night (23:23 – 23:49)

• The Wheel:
  • Became Cameron and his sister’s ritual “good luck” road trip song after this show.

  “That's that song. And specifically that version is what we would put on when leaving the house for a tour for forever after.” – Cameron (23:23)

Brent, Bruce, and Vince: Reflections on Keyboardists (25:05 – 29:26)

• Brent’s Role & Chemistry:
  • Both hosts agree: Brent’s vocals and playing were irreplaceable, “pushing Jerry” each night.
  • Bruce Hornsby is praised for his stimulating presence and grand piano work, though the hosts feel Vince Welnick floundered after Bruce’s departure.
  • Early Vince-only shows receive positive mention for their unique textures.
  • Favorite Vince moment: “First Bird Song at Richfield, 1990—Jerry introduced Vince after, big ovation” (28:29).

    “I really like that version of Birdsong...Vince really shined.” – Cameron (28:29)

The Wider Scene: Other Shows, Venues, and Life After the Dead (31:52 – End)

• Deer Creek Memories:
  • Both have deep Deer Creek ties; Cameron saw “hundreds” of shows there, including carload gigs and backstage passes.
  • “Saw many, many shows and...went back there just a few weeks ago for...the Phish shows at Deer Creek.”
• Modern Dead Scene:
  • Limited exposure to Dead & Company; Will is ambivalent about John Mayer as frontman.

    “I think he's a fabulous guitarist, but I just don't like to listen to him sing.” – Cameron (36:11)

• How the Dead Change Lives:
  • Will and Cameron reflect on how seeing the Dead, and simple choices (like picking up Deadhead hitchhikers) can alter one’s life path permanently.

    “Maybe U2 does that…but I doubt it. You know, this band really changes people’s lives.” – Will (37:08)

  • Cameron echoes:

    “The very first notes of my very first show…just looking around, enjoying the crowd, the people...the excitement is palpable…It was immediate. It was like this, this is something I want to be a part of.” – Cameron (37:25)

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Notable Quotes & Moments List (with Timestamps)

• “It was my sixth show...a year after my first show. My first show was at Deer Creek in '89.” (Cameron, 01:02)
• “I would not have the loving life with my wife that I have today if I had not picked up those hitchhikers at 7 in the morning on the 4th of July, 1990.” (Cameron, 13:21)
• “Oh, my goodness, it was so hot. I think 101 at showtime...the asphalt lot had to be 120.” (Cameron, 13:53)
• “I've been trouble all my life” [Jerry lyric flub in “Cold Rain & Snow”]. (Will, 16:05)
• “That’s that song. And specifically that version is what we would put on when leaving the house for a tour for forever after.” (Cameron, 23:23)
• “Maybe U2 does that…but I doubt it. You know, this band really changes people’s lives.” (Will, 37:08)
• “The very first notes of my very first show…just looking around, enjoying the crowd, the people mingling...Then the band comes on...the excitement is palpable...I want to be a part of.” (Cameron, 37:25)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:24: Guest introduction & show background
• 01:02: Cameron’s Deadhead origin story
• 05:49: 1990 summer tour, road trip to Kansas
• 08:33: Picking up hitchhikers – meeting the Flying Grilled Cheese Brothers
• 13:21: How chance encounters on tour lead to lifelong friendships and marriage
• 13:46: Arrival at Sandstone, oppressive heat
• 15:17 - 17:30: First set highlights, crowd & band’s mood
• 17:37: Second set musical observations (“gooey oozing” jams, MIDI experimentation)
• 22:23: The power of being present – “attendance bias”
• 23:23: “The Wheel” as personal anthem
• 25:05: Brent, Bruce, and Vince – keyboardists' impact
• 31:52: More Deadhead/venue lore (Deer Creek, carload shows, backstage stories)
• 36:11: Thoughts on John Mayer & Dead & Company
• 37:08 - 38:51: Reflections on the Grateful Dead’s life-altering impact

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Episode Tone & Style

Friendly, nostalgic, conversational, and filled with love for the Dead community. Will and Cameron balance deep musical observation with personal anecdotes, always circling back to the unifying spirit and profound, sometimes cosmic, effect of the Grateful Dead scene on individual lives.

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Summary

This episode embodies the magic found on the lot and on the road as much as on stage. Through Cameron’s story, listeners experience how Dead shows are about more than music—they’re about fateful encounters, lifelong friendships, and altered life paths. The July 4, 1990 Sandstone show, though sweltering and musically ragged at times, becomes a touchstone for tales of love, community, and the enduring legacy of Brent’s final days. It’s an evocative tribute to how embracing “the ride”—with the Dead or otherwise—can, in their words, “really change your path in life in very odd sorts of ways.”

Transcript

[Will]

This episode of Tales from the Lot is sponsored by ShakeDownT shirts.com with unique lot style T shirts, license plate frames, coffee mugs and all sorts of things for Grateful Dead, Fish Zappa, panic and more. ShakeDownT Shirts.com where all US orders over $35 ship free. And just for Tales from the Lot listeners use the code Lot20 for 20% off of any order. That's L O T20.

Tales from the Lot episode five. Maybe YouTube does that, but I doubt it. My guest is Cameron Patrick, here to

talk about July, July 4, 1990 at the Sandstone Auditorium in Bonner Springs, Kansas.

Let's do it. Hi, welcome to Tales from the Lot. My name is Will. Today my guest is Cameron Patrick. We're here to talk about July 4, 1990 at the Sandstone Amphitheater in Kansas. How's it going, Cameron?

[Cameron Patrick]

Good. How are you, Will?

[Will]

Good. Thanks for, thanks for being on here. I appreciate it. This, this Sandstone Amphitheater, was this your first Grateful Dead show or had you been to some before this?

[Cameron Patrick]

It was my sixth show. It has been about a year after my first show. My first show was beer creek in 89. I grew up in Indianapolis area about 20 minutes away from beer Creek and enjoyed that show so much in 89 that a friend of mine and I went to Alpine immediately after, hopped on the bus the next day and, and then saw a couple shows in the fall tour in 89 and a couple shows in the spring tour in April of 90. And so yeah, so I'd say six. I guess it was a seventh, seventh show for me.

[Will]

Nice. How many did you get to altogether?

[Cameron Patrick]

48. 48 dead shows and one JGB show.

[Will]

Nice. Nice. I also grew up in central Indiana in Anderson, really close to Deer Creek. And, and I was not there for 89 or 90, but I made it there for 91. That was my, my first experience and then got out of Indiana as quickly as I could afford it. Cool. So, so what were you listening to, you know, like growing up, what, what were your, your musical roots? And, and how did you get to the Grateful Dead?

[Cameron Patrick]

Oh, I was more, more of a metal. Well, I, I, I had varied interests. My mom would listen to a lot of Motown kind of stuff, so that was always playing in the house and, and enjoyed it and still do. But I, I listened to more my older brother, his collection of records is more what I listened to, which was more along the lines of Alice Cooper, Led Zeppelin, Aquaman, Turner Overdrive, that type of thing. But I also had really liked the, the Southern rock of the 70s, which is what they call country now, I guess. More Charlie Daniels and Ozark Mountain Daredevils and Molly Hatchet. Molly Hatchet was my first concert ever in 78.

[Will]

Wow, nice. Do you see them with like, Market Square or somewhere like that?

[Cameron Patrick]

At the Indiana State Fair. The infamous Indiana State Fair, yes.

[Will]

So you. How did you get to the Grateful Dead from all that?

[Cameron Patrick]

Well, my sister and I, in the late 80s, we worked at the same place, the Downtown Hotel in Indianapolis. And one of our other co workers was our roommate. The three of us had an apartment together, and she was from New York, and she was the one who always tried to get me and my sister to go to Dead shows. Thought we would really enjoy it, the music and the scene. And so she was the one who got. Convinced us to go in 89, that the first year Deer Creek was open and they were there. And yeah, she had a real. I told you so after that first

[Will]

one, I feel like, you know, all the people who get us there have that for a minute, you know, and then, you know, and then we get assimilated into the whole scene and. And then it's just on from there. But that's cool. And so. So your sister went with you and do you have a. Was it some friends also or.

[Cameron Patrick]

Yes, actually, that, that. That first show, we've got a friend, good friend, who works for a construction company that built Deer Creek. And. And they. That first season of Deer Creek, that construction company had a box. And so that our. Our first show was quite unusual that we. There were 12 of us that went in two limos and got dropped off right at the front door and had box seats for it. Yeah, so that's a great story. It's like an experience never had at any other Dead show.

[Will]

Yeah, first class, man. Dropped off right at the front. I've seen. I've seen the limo line there, but never been through it. But I know what you're talking about. That's awesome. That's awesome. Did you. Okay, so you got your tickets to that. That's so much dancing space in those boxes. Yes, but you're not, you know. You know, you're not all crushed up and all that. Nice. So. And then. Okay, so how did you end up out in Kansas? You were just on tour and. And seeing some shows through 90.

[Cameron Patrick]

By that time, summer of 90, we were big fans and. And I. I had gone through the catalog, you know, knew, knew all the albums and all the songs, had lots of bootlegs added to my collection by that time. And like I say, my sister and I were living together. So through the years, she, my sister and I were traveling companions all from 90 through 95. She. We went to. Of the 48 shows that I went to, she was my companion for probably 40, 41 of those. That's nice to meet.

[Will]

Trust on the road with you.

[Cameron Patrick]

Yes, yes. So she was my companion going to. To Bonner Springs, Kansas, that Fourth of July. I was working nights at that time, and so I got off work about 3 in the morning on the 4th of July after working the night of the 3rd, and she and I hit the road immediately. And this is the better part of the story. I mean, I know the podcast is for talking about the shows, but for this, for all of us. And it's the events around the show that made this show so special to me. She And I, by 7:00am we were passing through St. Louis, and on the belt outside St. Louis, we were passing a pickup truck. And in that pickup truck, there were two guys holding up a sign from inside the pickup truck saying, can you take us do the show? And she and I were driving a minivan, which was a rented minivan because neither of our cars at that time could. Could handle a long road trip. And so we had this rented minivan, which we had taped a Grateful Dead sticker up in the back window. And. And so these guys, these guys saw that sticker and they held up the sign, and so we did. During that, they were. They were doing the whole tour, hitchhiking through the whole tour. And. And they, they were in this truck because that guy had given him a ride, but he was getting ready to take a different road. And so we all pulled over to the side of the road and they hopped out of his truck and into our rented van. And we've been great friends with both of them since that moment. Still are to this day.

[Will]

That's awesome. Where are they from?

[Cameron Patrick]

From Delaware. Newark. Delaware.

[Will]

Okay.

[Cameron Patrick]

And. And so they eventually became the Flying Grilled Cheese Brothers, selling grilled cheeses on lot through the whole tour. Every summer tour, they would do the whole tour hitchhiking and eventually did grilled cheeses. But at that time, that was their first tour of doing that, and they were going to do stir fry that tour. And they found that it was much easier as hitchhikers to go with the grilled cheese rather than the stir fry, but they were doing stir fry. So we made a grocery stop for them before we got to the show. We got there and. And they collected up their stuff and thanked us Thanked us and went on their way. We. We exchanged numbers, but didn't know if we would really see them again or hear from them again. But it turns out one of them left his wallet in the van and with. With all of his money for the tour, all of his tickets, everything. And. And we didn't discover that until we were about halfway back to Indianapolis the next day after the show. And. And so they. We did hook up with them. We. We tried to hook up with them in Louisville, which was a show or two after Kansas, and. And did not. But they. They ended up coming to our place for the Deer Creek shows, which were a couple weeks down the road. He just struggled by until then. And. And they came and stayed with us for Deer Creek and then ended up getting back every year and stayed with us for Deer Creek and we'd go stay with them for east coast shows and. Evolved into a lifelong loving friendship. And. And then where it goes from there is one of them, his girlfriend at the time is his wife now they are still together, and she didn't get to meet her until 92 or 93. Met her on the east coast when we went out there for some shows. And. And her best friend since childhood was a woman who became my wife eventually that we, the Grateful Dead, went through their years and then Jerry died, and they would still come and visit for the further festival or for the other ones. But eventually the festivals of 2000 came around and I started. We started going to Bonnaroo, my sister and I, and. And went in 2004, and then we would meet them there as well. They would. Our friends from the road. And finally in 2007, Bonnaroo, my wife Jenny came along with them to Bonnaroo that year, and that's the first time I met them. And after we had been friends with them for all this time, 14, 15 years at this point. And my wife Jenny had been friends with them her entire life, had been roommates with them in college, but the two of us had never met through them, had never crossed paths until 2007. We met and met at Bonnaroo and were married eight months later in February, and we've been together ever since.

[Will]

That's fantastic. You know, that's one of the things that I hear a lot associated with the Grateful Dead is, you know, the people you meet, you don't. I mean, you just stay friends for forever. I mean, like, you know, even. Even the people you don't know, you're already friends with at a Dead show, you know, so. But yeah, it's just. It's. It's come up a lot. You know, I met this guy at Rosemont or I met this guy at Shoreline, and, you know, we would always make sure to find each other when we were back there. And just the lifelong friendships that happen out of this, it's. It's, it's not uncommon. And it's. And it's very cool.

[Cameron Patrick]

I think I do too. Yeah. Just. Just to know that I. I would not have the loving life with my wife that I have today if I had not picked up those hitchhikers at 7 in the morning on the 4th of July, 1990.

[Will]

So let's talk about the show.

[Cameron Patrick]

Okay.

[Will]

So you got there and, you know, evidently it was hot as, like, oh, my goodness. Could be.

[Cameron Patrick]

Oh, my goodness, it was so hot. It was, I think, 101 at showtime and the asphalt parking lot there at Bonner Springs, it had to be 120 in the lot. It was. It was awful.

[Will]

What kind of venue was it?

[Cameron Patrick]

A pavilion or what, A shed type amphitheater? I'm not sure of the age of it. It's Bonner Springs Amphitheater was what it was called then. No sponsorship. But to me, having been at Deer Creek with it being all brand new at that point, this bonus spring seemed to be much older to me. Seemed. Seemed to not have any New Bengal amenities.

[Will]

Yeah, From. From the little bit I read about it, it seemed to be pretty small. And the stage was. Was actually kind of small, which seemed. I saw some pictures, somebody had taken some photos and posted them online as I was preparing for this. And it looked like the band all had matching shades and. And it just. There were just no protection for them. It looked like. Because it was like. Like the COVID of the stage seems sort of small.

[Cameron Patrick]

Yes. Yes, Agreed.

[Will]

From the angle I could see, I couldn't see the whole thing. Yeah, I couldn't see the whole thing. But there was a picture of the band and it. Just like they were right in the sunlight.

[Cameron Patrick]

Yes.

[Will]

And. And I noticed at the end of the set, Bobby's like, we'll be back in just a little bit when the sun goes down. That was his. That was his line at the end of the first set, which I thought was kind of funny, but, yeah, you could definitely tell, you know, during the first set they were struggling a little bit. There was some lyrical things and. And, you know, there were some moments, but you could tell that maybe they were uncomfortable as they were getting through that first set a little bit.

[Cameron Patrick]

Yes. It was fun for the crowd. I think that they opened with Cold Rain and Snow. A little bit of trolling there.

[Will]

Yeah, indeed. Yeah. And it was, you know, decent song choices. I mean, Walk of Blues was. Was. Was good Half Step. You know, actually that Cold Red and Snow. I did notice thing. Something. Jerry flipped the lyrics a little bit and said, I've been trouble all my life, which I thought was kind of funny. Like, it's. Instead of. She's been trouble all my life. He says, I've been trouble all my life. I thought was. Was cool, and maybe he should have kept that later or something just for the fun of it.

[Cameron Patrick]

I don't know.

[Will]

But, yeah, you know, the Queen Jane was smoking. It was. It was a good set, but you could tell that it was a little disjointed sometimes. Like, maybe they were just not as comfortable as they could be.

[Cameron Patrick]

I agree. I agree. It was fun for me, though, being. When I said my seventh show and. And a year into my Grateful Dead fandom, there were lots of songs that I knew at that point but had not seen them play live. And. And this show, it was like almost every song in this show. It was just one after another that, hey, it is my personal first time seeing most of the songs right on this show. And. And Right. Really enjoyed that.

[Will]

Nice. And then, you know, I think the second set was a. Was. Was definitely a little more solid.

[Cameron Patrick]

And.

[Will]

And, I mean, even from the Victim of the Crime where, you know, there's. There are people who like that song and people who don't. I sort of like this song. But. But at the end of that, there's this moment where Jerry is just. I wrote a note that said gooey oozing like. Like it just. Like this music was just gooey oozing out of him. Like, it didn't. It wasn't really with the time, and it was just sort of like in and out. And there's just this moment right at the end of Victim of the Crime when. When Jerry's doing something above the textures that are going on behind him. And I. That just caught me when I. When I heard that, I was like, wow, that was unique. And it just sounded gooey for some reason to me. And maybe it was the heat, maybe.

[Cameron Patrick]

So I. I think it's neat, too, that that is the only show that I saw them do Victim of the Crime into Foolish Heart rather than the other way around. It seemed like they. They pretty quickly switched it to having Foolish Heart be a regular opener and would go into Victim of the Crime out of Foolish Heart and this is the only time I can remember that they did the Victim of the Crime into Foolish Heart. And I think, personally, I think it works better. I was always disappointed after that that the order had been switched.

[Will]

Yeah, I, I, I kind of prefer Victim. I, I like the darkness of it and just the whole, I don't know, the, the, it just has such a full sound when, you know, when they play it. But, you know, I like Foolish Heart too, but, yeah, I agreed with you. The Victim first as an opener, works for me anytime. And then just a Little Light, that's, that's the one song, you know, I never got to see Brett. And that's like the one song that I'm sad that, that I never got to hear. I mean, never Trust a Woman is cool and we could run as cool, but it would have been nice to catch that, to catch just a little light sometime. That was a neat song. And it was sort of different the way they hang in those parts and, and bring it into the. Just a little light, I guess. This was less than a month before we lost Brent. This show was. So this may be the last one. I don't know. I'd have to go back and look, but it was.

[Cameron Patrick]

Yeah, no, this, who knows? This. I think I'd have to go back and look, but I think this was the first show of the summer tour that year and it went on through the rest of July and, and yeah, Deer Creek was later and Tinley Park, Illinois, which we did go to those shows too, I think, where Brent's last shows.

[Will]

Yep, yep. And then, yeah, I, I, unfortunately, I never got to see Brent, but I did my first show had Hornsby, so I was kind of, kind of glad about that. Not Brent, but still pretty good. But, you know, like the Scarlet and the Fire mid set and this, this whole second set was very midi heavy, if you like. There's a lot of trumpets, a lot of oboes, and a lot of like crystal bell sounds and, and it's, you could tell that the tech was new for them and they were just really trying to see where it fit. And I felt like this night in particular, there was a lot of midi going on and you know, from the solo and Scarlet to Late in the fire in the Mountain and then, you know, maybe even into the drums, I wasn't really certain. There's a, you know, it gets kind of raging where they're locked in and then it goes into this part for a little while where it sounds like, I don't know if it's some Sort of metal drums, weird symbols, bells. I'm not sure what it was, but likely Mickey is tapping out some sort of rhythm on these. And it goes on for a while, you know, and it kind of progresses and turns into a thing. But I never could tell if it was. If it was real or if they were triggers, you know, since everybody else is playing midi. So I'm gonna have to try to find a video or something of the show somewhere, figure out what he was doing back there because it was, it was really cool sounding. And, and, and, and he just, he locked into it. You know, sometimes in drums they'll sort of play it and it'll, it'll ooze or, or change kind of rapidly as they keep going. But he just locked into this thing on these very odd sounding sort of bells or, or metal drums of some sort.

[Cameron Patrick]

Agree. Yeah, the, the, the Scarlet Fire has still to this day, I think that on tape. That's my favorite Scarlet Fire.

[Will]

Yeah, it's, it's definitely, it's definitely cooking. I mean they, they, they lock in and that. It's just churning that rhythm. Yeah, it's a good version for sure.

[Cameron Patrick]

It may not be the best, but. But you know, there's always that the emotional attachment to diversions that you were there for. You have the specific point in time, memories flashing through your head when you listen to a recording of it.

[Will]

That is really part of it. I mean the feeling in the room is as much a part of it. And whatever energy they're getting back and giving out, whatever's going on in the world that day is all part of it. So, so you know that attendance bias is a real thing and it's tangible, I feel like.

[Cameron Patrick]

Agreed, agreed.

[Will]

And okay, so drum space. Cool. And then the Wheel. Never complain about that nice spacey long intro on it. Before they get locked in Give me some loving.

[Cameron Patrick]

The Wheel is one that became my sister and I's road song. That, that's that song. And specifically that version is what we would put on when we're leaving the house for a tour for forever after.

[Will]

It's the one, the good luck song to start off with.

[Cameron Patrick]

Yes.

[Will]

So this is. You said this. Is that the first show. How many did you see on this, this leg? You left from work and an Indian drove out there. Did you?

[Cameron Patrick]

Yeah, this. Well, that was the crazy thing that. No, I only said this show because I then had to be back at work at 4pm on 5 July. So it was a whirlwind. Yeah. And I had not slept from from the time I left work at 3am on the night of the 3rd, morning of the 4th, until the time I got back to work at 4pm on the 5th.

[Will]

You're a madman.

[Cameron Patrick]

I had not slept well. I was young. I was young, man.

[Will]

Yeah, true, true.

[Cameron Patrick]

Easier to do when you were young, I guess, but. But then did go see the Louisville show, which was. Was a few days later, and then saw the, the Deer Creek shows of that tour and the Tinley Park, Illinois shows at the end of the tour.

[Will]

You caught a fair chunk of Brent there at the end.

[Cameron Patrick]

Yeah, yeah, I was happy to.

[Will]

He's my favorite keyboardist, for sure. That they add.

[Cameron Patrick]

Agreed. Yeah, his vocals added so much. I mean, I loved his playing, but. But the vocals added such a different layer than any of the other keyboardists did.

[Will]

Yeah, the color and just pushing Jerry too. I mean, you know that those two were tight and you know, you watch the videos and they're just grinning at each other, you know, tried to outdo each other and really just kicking it and some of that. It's sad that some of that was lost, but I feel like Hornsby had a little bit of that, that he could push him when he moved on. I don't think that there was somebody there that was really pushing Jerry to really do better every night. You know, my opinion agreed.

[Cameron Patrick]

It was. I, I with Bruce. I really liked the, the grand piano, the layer that he added in, and thought it was better than Vince alone once he got there. I thought that. But I did see Vince's first show, that, that was poignant for me too, to have seen. Saw Brent's last show and then saw Vince's first show, which was only like six weeks later. And I really enjoyed Vince in those early days, before Brent came along, I mean, before Bruce came along, because I, I think he, he felt, I think once Bruce was there, I think Vince felt like he. His role was diminished and, and then once Bruce left, Vince never really came back to where he was before Bruce came along. I think. I think those few months before Bruce joined them, when Vince was alone and. And brand new, I, I really like the tones that he added at that time.

[Will]

I'm gonna have to go back and listen to those, those pre Bruce shows because I'm not, I'm not certain that I have. And I know I've listened to a ton of the Bruce here and, and then saw a bunch of Vince only shows and, and I mean, how, yeah, what you described, how could you not feel that way? Bruce Hornsby comes and sits in front of you and does what he does. And you know, Vince was good and you know, maybe he was. I think it was sort of a quick decision. I mean, I'm not sure Vince was the. Was the right fit. And I think they were a little hasty about it personally. But, you know, I love Vince going down, you know, glad to see him. I like Samba in the Rain. I'm not sure about Way to Go Home, but, you know, I feel like they should have waited a little bit. And I'm not even necessarily wait a bit, but giving it a little more time to find somebody who would, you know, gel and push Jerry a little bit more.

[Cameron Patrick]

But yeah, yeah, I liked the. It was Richfield, Ohio, September 8th, 7th or 8th or something along in there. 1990 was. Was Vince's first shows and, and okay, which, whichever was the first show. They played a bird song late in the first set and Vince really shined. I mean that was, that was the first point in the show that, that he really got to shine and he did. I. I really like that version of Birdsong which in Vince's first show and, and Jerry introduced him at the end of Birdsong and ah, he got quite a rousing reception after playing that song.

[Will]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to check that out. You said that was at Richfield?

[Cameron Patrick]

Yes, Richfield. Early 90. 90.

[Will]

Did you go to Richfield in 93? The spring 93 that got canceled?

[Cameron Patrick]

Did not. Did not. Never went to the spring shows. Went to all the Ridgefield fall shows, but not the spring shows.

[Will]

Gotcha. We. I. I went and my buddy was. Was driving this little tiny Cavalier and it was a blizzard. I mean, it was just coming down like, I don't know, 10 inches an hour or something stupid like that. And, and Central Indiana over to Richfield's not all that far, so we. We were gonna do it. And, and the whole way there they're. We're listening to the radio and the closing roads and. And some somehow we. We finally make it there right as they announce that they're canceling the show because of the blizzard.

[Cameron Patrick]

Like.

[Will]

Oh, and.

[Cameron Patrick]

And now you have to drive back.

[Will]

What turn?

No, no.

Well, we had tickets for the next night also, and a hotel room. So. So we were, we were good to go. But honestly though, I'm almost certain I had more fun that night than I would have had had the show actually happened, because where we were staying at was like. We were like the Motel 6 or something. And then there was a Red Roof Inn, and then there was a Holiday Inn, and then There was something else over here and it was all people for the show. And so it was just like the biggest riot party in the middle of all this and a blizzard. And it was, it was really fun and I, I don't remember a whole lot of it other than going out and helping my buddies push a cop car out of a snow drift. And he was really grateful and really weirded out by us. We offered to help. So he was to going great. He was grateful. But we got him out of the drift and then we ended up going to the show the next night. It went on and that was the, the first I Fought the Law. And that was supposedly because they were shut down the night before they learned that song to play it. But overall was not the greatest show is a, one of the, one of those slow Karinas and, and like just everything was sort of slow all night long and ended with I Fought the Law. And we're like, oh, at least we had a good party last night. Do you ever make it up to like the Rosemont or any of that stuff too?

[Cameron Patrick]

Only for my one Jerry Garcia band show was at the Rosemont. That's the only time I've been there. Yeah.

[Will]

And okay, so you're from central Indiana. You probably saw lots of kick ass other shows at Deer Creek as well.

[Cameron Patrick]

I mean, I did, I did.

[Will]

I mean Everybody did like 89, 90, 91. Every single, single band was coming through there.

[Cameron Patrick]

So I, I saw, I, I saw hundreds of shows there. Deer Creek, Yeah.

[Will]

Do you Remember the old 20 carload shows?

[Cameron Patrick]

Yes, yes.

[Will]

I had a friend who had one of those big old blazers and we'd stuff like 10 people in there and I'll pay a couple of bucks to go see like Bad Company or somebody. You know, it's too bad.

[Cameron Patrick]

I had, I had a, I had a friend who at that time there was, there was a hotel in Indianapolis that was good. 10 miles, 15 miles from Deer Creek. But it was at that time was the closest hotel to Deer Creek and it's where all the bands stayed. And I had a friend who was the bell captain at that hotel. And that summer we went to hundreds of shows at Deer Creek. But one summer went to every single show because he got free tickets to every show that whole summer and got backstage passes for a lot of them. Had backstage matches for the Dead that year through him.

[Will]

Nice.

[Cameron Patrick]

And that was my only Dead show with backstage passes, which really didn't mean much because by the time they let us in backstage after the show, the band was already gone. And There was just, you know, some sorry, soggy leftovers of a banquet table that we munched on, but there was nothing really to the backstage area. But still got that backstage pass to put on the wall.

[Will]

Heck, yeah.

[Cameron Patrick]

But, yeah, that had so much fun at Deer Creek. Saw many, many shows and. And my wife and I went back there just a few weeks ago for. For the Fish shows at Deer Creek, and that was the first time she had been to Deer Creek and my first time back there in. In 12 years or more. 15 years. I've been here in Tennessee for 12, and. And yeah, it was a lot of fun being back there, having all the memories.

[Will]

Last time I was there was for fish in 96. I don't think I saw anything else after that. And then soon after, I moved out here to Colorado, where I live, 10 minutes from Dick's, which is kind of nice.

[Cameron Patrick]

Very nice. Very nice.

[Will]

Yeah. Yeah. Catch those shows all the time.

[Cameron Patrick]

We like Dick's.

[Will]

Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah, it was pretty fun this year, for sure. Are you seeing Dead and Company around these days?

[Cameron Patrick]

Have not. Have not. Have not seen. The only time I've seen Dead and Company was when they did Bonnaroo.

[Will]

Gotcha. Yeah, I. The only time I've seen him, and it was sort of a hybrid. Didn't know what was happening. But I went to The Jerry Garcia 75th birthday party at Red Rocks, and they had, you know, the remnants of the Jerry Garcia Acoustic Band, and JGB played with Melvin and. And then the headliner was going to be Bob Solo is what it was going to be. So he comes out and he does. And it was right around the time of the Blue Mountain record. And he comes out and he did one or two songs off of that, and I was, like, really stoked because I love that record. And. And then he started doing a bunch of Jerry tunes, which. That makes sense. It's Jerry's birthday and he invites OT who had played with jgb. And then John Mayer comes out and it just turns into a Dead and Company show at the end, sort of unannounced. So that was my lone time kind of seeing that band. But, yeah, it was cool. And, you know, it was sort of unexpected and it was all right. I don't love John Mayer. That's my deal. I mean, his playing is good, but his voice sort of gets me.

[Cameron Patrick]

I'm the same way. I'm the same way. I think he's a fabulous guitarist, but I. I just don't like to listen to him sing.

[Will]

No, I. I much prefer somebody in that slot like Warren Haynes or anybody. But it was fun at Red Rocks that night because it was unexpected and sort of a treat. And we. We'd heard so much good music that was just like an all day event. It was a nice way to cap it off. For sure. Okay, sure. So. So this 7-4-90 show, I see why that one was special. For sure. I mean, it really. You know, the Grateful Dead is one of those things that will really change your path and life in very odd sort of ways. And I know that my life would be a lot different if I hadn't went to that Grateful Dead show the first time. And if you hadn't have picked up those two people, you know, it's just amazing that a band can affect somebody's trajectory so much.

[Cameron Patrick]

Agreed.

[Will]

Yeah, I mean, maybe U2 does that or Mariah Carey, but I doubt it. You know, this band really like changes people's lives and it's. It's pretty amazing.

[Cameron Patrick]

It is. It's so true. And it did. You know, picking up the hitchhikers on. On 4th of July did start that trajectory. That, that led to my marriage. But. But even before that, like I said, the. The first. The very first notes of my very first show, which was Bertha is what they opened up with at the. At that 89 Deer Creek show. And just before the music started, before the show, just looking around, enjoying the crowd, the people mingling, how excited and happy everyone was. And then the band comes on stage and everybody comes to attention and the excitement is palpable. And then the electricity starts going through the air and those first notes of Bertha came and the whole. I mean, the whole 25,000 strong, massive tie dyed color bouncing and jumping and loving that moment is. Yeah, it was immediate. It was like this. This is something I want to be a part of.

[Will]

Yeah, I know that exact feeling of standing at Deer Creek for your first show. And for me it was a half

[Cameron Patrick]

step

[Will]

and just everybody like, you know, that was just so much different than anything else I'd ever experienced. I wanted to have that all the time.

[Cameron Patrick]

Agreed.

[Will]

Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, Cameron, thank you for being on today. I appreciate you coming on and talk about your fantastic journey.

[Cameron Patrick]

Well, it's been great fun. It's good to meet you.

[Will]

Will you as well.

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