A Love Letter to Comedy with Paul W. Downs and Lucia Aniello (‘Hacks’)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso – "A Love Letter to Comedy with Paul W. Downs and Lucia Aniello (‘Hacks’)"

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Introduction

In the May 19, 2024 episode of Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso, host Sam Fragoso engages in an intimate conversation with filmmakers Paul W. Downs and Lucia Aniello. As the co-creators of the Emmy-winning series Hacks, Downs and Aniello delve into their creative journey, the evolution of their acclaimed show, and the current landscape of the comedy industry. This episode serves as a heartfelt exploration of their partnership, the challenges of modern comedy, and their unwavering passion for the craft.

Background of Paul W. Downs and Lucia Aniello

Paul W. Downs and Lucia Aniello have been a dynamic duo in the comedy scene for over a decade, dating back to their early days at UCB in the mid-2000s. Together, they co-created Hacks, a show that has garnered critical acclaim and an Emmy award, now embarking on its third season. The series centers on the unlikely mentorship between Deborah Vance, a legendary Las Vegas comedian, and Ava Daniels, a Gen Z comedy writer.

Creative Partnership and Writing Process

Downs and Aniello, who are also husband and wife, have developed a unique and harmonious creative process. They prioritize uplifting each other’s work rather than critiquing it, fostering a supportive environment that fuels their creativity.

[04:27] Paul W. Downs: "We actually do write separately, and then we swap scripts, and we highlight only the things that we like in the other person's script."

This method allows them to bring out the best in each other’s ideas, ensuring that collaboration remains positive and productive.

The New Season of Hacks

Season three of Hacks introduces Deborah Vance and Ava Daniels reunited with a new mission: landing Deborah her own late-night talk show. This season explores themes of ambition, aging in the entertainment industry, and the evolving dynamics between the two main characters.

[10:38] Sam Fragoso: "How is she 70?"

[10:39] Paul W. Downs: "Please. I know."

The show continues to blend humor with poignant moments, maintaining its reputation for sharp, character-driven storytelling.

The State of Comedy in 2024

Downs and Aniello express concern over the shrinking landscape of comedy in 2024. With media consolidation and the decline of traditional comedy institutions like Comedy Central and numerous comedy clubs, they highlight the increasing challenges for new comedians to break into the industry.

[15:13] Sam Fragoso: "In the Hollywood Reporter, you called making comedy in 2024 scary stuff."

[15:18] Lucia Aniello: "Eloquent as always."

They discuss how the reduction in platforms for emerging voices creates a "cultural emergency," emphasizing the vital role of comedy in speaking truth to power and fostering community.

Reflections on Industry Changes and Pipelines

The duo reflects on the traditional comedy pipeline—YouTube, College Humor, Comedy Central, to mainstream success—and how this pathway has become less viable. They note that while platforms like YouTube still exist, the avenues are more fragmented and competitive.

[48:22] Paul W. Downs: "Classic from right now, it feels like a classic."

They acknowledge the necessity for relentless dedication and adaptability in the evolving industry, encouraging aspiring comedians to persist despite the lack of a clear roadmap.

Origin Story: Meeting and Early Collaboration

Downs and Aniello recount their meeting in a UCB 101 improv class in New York City circa 2007. Their initial collaboration began with a blend of romance and creative synergy, laying the foundation for their future projects.

[36:15] Paul W. Downs: "We're in New York. Paul had a car at the time in the city because there was parking for some reason kind of near my building."

Their shared passion for comedy and mutual support helped them navigate early challenges, including Downs’s unexpected arrest for driving under the influence—a humorous yet pivotal moment in their relationship.

Balancing Work, Creativity, and Family

As co-creators and partners, Downs and Aniello discuss the intricacies of balancing their demanding careers with their personal lives. With the arrival of their child, they emphasize the importance of dedicating time to family while continuing to nurture their creative endeavors.

[58:09] Lucia Aniello: "I think we're like, well, we're definitely not working stuff because that takes up so much time. And I'm like, we spend so much time with him and we love him, but it makes me feel like, you know, I definitely don't have, if anything, at this point in my life. To be totally honest, the only thing that I, like, don't pay attention to enough is myself."

They highlight how their child has become a new source of inspiration and joy, seamlessly integrating into their creative process.

Advice to Aspiring Comedians

Downs and Aniello offer heartfelt advice to those looking to enter the comedy industry. They stress the importance of relentless effort, continuous practice, and the embrace of an original voice.

[70:42] Paul W. Downs: "It's just you have to be relentless, and you have to not give up on it, and you have to continue to put things out."

Aniello adds that maintaining a unique and fresh voice remains essential, even as the industry landscape shifts.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a celebration of Downs and Aniello’s enduring passion for comedy and their commitment to creating meaningful, laughter-filled content. Their story serves as both an inspiration and a testament to the power of collaboration, resilience, and unwavering dedication in the face of an ever-changing entertainment landscape.

[74:16] Paul W. Downs: "Making Lucia laugh is the best feeling in the world, and I now have that also with our son. Making him and her laugh is the best. It just feels. It's the best feeling in the world."

Notable Quotes:

• Lucia Aniello [04:23]: "We don't critique. Well, that's the caveat is we don't critique each other's work."
• Sam Fragoso [10:45]: "She looked insane. I have a lot of questions about her skincare routine."
• Paul W. Downs [15:32]: "We feel very lucky to make an original comedy, especially one that's about two women."
• Lucia Aniello [22:48]: "All this. He all the time will say, I have a secret roast beef."
• Sam Fragoso [70:42]: "What did the two of you say to people going, I still want to make art. I still want to do comedy. What do you two say in this moment?"

Final Thoughts

This episode of Talk Easy not only provides a deep dive into the creation and success of Hacks but also offers a poignant commentary on the current state of comedy. Downs and Aniello’s insights illuminate the challenges faced by modern comedians and underscore the enduring importance of humor in society.

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For more episodes like this, listen to Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Lucia Agnello]

Lemonade.

[Sam Fragoso]

Pushkin. This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show. Today I'm joined by filmmakers Lucia Agnello and Paul W. Downs. Now together, they are the co creators of Hacks, the Emmy award winning program that has recently returned for its third season. For those unfamiliar, the show is centered around an unlikely mentorship between Deborah Vance, a legendary Las Vegas comedian, and Ava Daniels, a Gen Z comedy writer with all the expected trappings of being 25 years old. They're reunited again in this season, this time with the express purpose of landing Debra her own late night talk show. Here's a little bit from the trailer of season three of Hacks.

[Lucia Agnello]

Deborah, after your special, your career's never been hotter. Did you ever think you'd be back on top?

[Paul W. Downs]

Yes, yes. Deborah's here. You're here. She hired new writers. You know what? She hired two, which is actually a compliment, isn't it? She had to replace you with two people. Wow. I'm not ready to see her.

[Lucia Agnello]

I was perfectly content being a gorgeous.

[Paul W. Downs]

Vegas comic and then you come along.

[Lucia Agnello]

And you make me want more for myself.

[Paul W. Downs]

So you're mad at me for pushing.

[Lucia Agnello]

You to be better? Yes.

[Sam Fragoso]

That was a clip from the new season of Hacks. Two new episodes drop every Thursday. Available exclusively on Max. I gotta say, this is the rare half hour comedy that I think keeps getting better and better with each new season. And the credit, I think, really has to go to Paul, Lucia and their co creator, Jen Statsky. But the show didn't come out of nowhere. Paul and Lucia, who are also, as you'll hear in this episode, husband and wife, have been performing and writing together for over a decade now, dating back to their early years at UCB in the mid 2000s. We talk a little bit about that period. In this conversation, we also discuss the ins and outs of this new season of Hacks, how their creative partnership actually works, the New York comedy pipeline they fell into with Broad City, and some good advice for people that still want to have a career in this industry, despite how precarious it all feels in 2024. And so with that, here is my conversation with Lucia Agnello and Paul W. Downs. Paul and Lucia, hi.

[Paul W. Downs]

Hi.

[Sam Fragoso]

How you two doing?

[Lucia Agnello]

We're good.

[Sam Fragoso]

We don't typically do this. We haven't really had pairs on the show. It's a little intimidating, really. You're both staring at me.

[Paul W. Downs]

You've never had Donnie and Marie or.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah. Desi, Arnaz, Penn and Teller.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah, well, that would be fine because only One talks.

[Paul W. Downs]

Actually, you know what? Penn and Teller would be a perfect guest if you. If you usually only do one. You're right.

[Lucia Agnello]

Do you feel like you're not able to, like, fully connect because you're going back and forth between both of us.

[Sam Fragoso]

You know, we're gonna find out.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

I'm hoping that it kind of turns into, like, a couples therapy situation. Oh, do you guys do that?

[Paul W. Downs]

We don't.

[Lucia Agnello]

No, we haven't.

[Paul W. Downs]

We don't.

[Sam Fragoso]

You don't need it.

[Lucia Agnello]

Well, you're above it. No, we both go to therapy.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Individually.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yes.

[Sam Fragoso]

Okay. And then. And then you guys get together, come.

[Paul W. Downs]

Together, and then we critique what we've heard. We share it, and we critique it.

[Sam Fragoso]

I've heard that's also basically how you two write scripts together as well, right?

[Paul W. Downs]

It is, kind of.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah.

[Paul W. Downs]

We actually do write separately, and then we swap scripts, and we highlight only the things that we like in the other person's script.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah, we don't critique. Well, that's the caveat is we don't critique each other's work.

[Paul W. Downs]

We just uplift. We just say we elevate and uplift. We say, these are the things we. Like, this is what made me laugh, and that's it.

[Lucia Agnello]

And we kind of ignore the things that the other. That we didn't like about the other person's, and then it works out.

[Paul W. Downs]

And I will say, there are times when one of us can say, but I really love this. And that's okay too, right?

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah. And if someone says, I really like the truck, it's like, okay.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

So you two have figured out a way to not really argue.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah. We had to figure that out before we could afford therapy.

[Lucia Agnello]

I guess that is true.

[Paul W. Downs]

You know what I mean? Like, it was early on.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah. We. Because we would write together and we would.

[Sam Fragoso]

This was really more of a song around healthcare.

[Lucia Agnello]

Oh, yeah, that too.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yes. Yeah.

[Lucia Agnello]

We couldn't pay for it.

[Paul W. Downs]

This was, Yeah.

[Lucia Agnello]

I would say, almost like, maybe four or five years into writing, like, collaborating together at all. We. We were like, this is not working. So what are we gonna do? And then. I don't know.

[Paul W. Downs]

I don't think that's right. I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell you why you're wrong. Okay. I think four or five years in, we were like, how can we make this less, like, A, faster and B, more fun? Because, you know when you're, like, sitting together pouring over a script and discussing each line, it's like, no, it takes too long. Yeah. And then. And then you get to you get to unpack reasons why you potentially don't like a line, or you think the joke could be this, and then if you're just doing it on your own, it's much more fun. Is this so boring?

[Sam Fragoso]

No, I just was thinking, yeah, same time next week? I think this is good.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Like, we already are getting into it.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

We're jumping so deep so quick. It's great.

[Paul W. Downs]

Actually, this should probably be two episodes since there's two of us. You should probably just do a double part two. Yeah. To be continued.

[Sam Fragoso]

HBO would love that.

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, let's figure out a cliffhanger and then we'll end on a cliffhanger.

[Lucia Agnello]

You know what it is? It's a gunshot.

[Sam Fragoso]

I'll tell you what I'm liking about this.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

I almost feel like I don't have to be here on the podcast.

[Paul W. Downs]

No, you do, you do, you do. I'm sorry.

[Sam Fragoso]

I'm kind of loving it.

[Paul W. Downs]

No, you are essential to it.

[Sam Fragoso]

Let me bring us back to earth. You two are married. You're the proud parents of a new young boy, I think it is. Right? Of course. You're the co creators of this new season of Hacks. Not necessarily in that order. I don't know. What are the priorities? Did I get the order right?

[Lucia Agnello]

I mean.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah. So though we got married, we created Hacks together, then we got married, then we had the child.

[Lucia Agnello]

Though we got pregnant, then got married.

[Sam Fragoso]

Okay, what keeps you up at night more? The new child or Vegas extras walking through your shot.

[Paul W. Downs]

Wow.

[Sam Fragoso]

In the season opener of season three.

[Paul W. Downs]

Luckily, that's a split second thing. When a. When a bogey, as it were, walks through the shot, that happens fast. And then it's over, I guess. Yeah. I would say I'm kept up more at night making sure that our child can breathe and checking the monitor. I think that keeps me up at night.

[Lucia Agnello]

And also that keeps him up at night more than it keeps me up at night, because I'm like, I think he's gonna be okay.

[Sam Fragoso]

Right?

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

What's that about?

[Paul W. Downs]

Oh, I don't know. I don't know.

[Sam Fragoso]

We'll get to that. Yeah, that's the cliffhanger I know. I had been, what, two years since season two?

[Lucia Agnello]

Exactly.

[Sam Fragoso]

Okay, for those who. Who haven't seen the show or maybe they need a refresher. Paul, can you explain the premise of the show? And then Lucia, can you set up season three?

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah.

[Paul W. Downs]

So the show is about a legendary Las Vegas comedian played by Jean Smart.

[Sam Fragoso]

And a Joan Rivers type.

[Paul W. Downs]

That's Right. Sort of an amalgamation of Joan Rivers, Phyllis Diller, Lucille Ball, Debbie Reynolds. A lot of showbiz icons. Who is in a fading moment in her career. When we meet her, she's a Las Vegas stand up who is kind of forced to hire a young 20something writer who's been outcast named Ava Daniels, played brilliantly by Hannah Einbinder. And it's really a show about the deep and twisted relationship and dark mentorship that forms between them.

[Sam Fragoso]

Well done.

[Paul W. Downs]

Thank you.

[Sam Fragoso]

Could double as a publicist at this point.

[Lucia Agnello]

He's said it so many times though. That was like a slightly longer than the logline, which I appreciated. That was good. They gave good more context.

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, you know, we had five years to think about before we even pitch the show. So both Lucia, myself and our co creator Jen Statsky can all pretty much rattle off the logline pretty fast.

[Lucia Agnello]

You know, there was one part of. I was just looking at the pitch pages the other day and one of the lines which I think is kind of funny is we said it's like Devil Wears Prada but with less shame and more wigs or more sequence?

[Paul W. Downs]

More sequence.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah, more sequence. That's kind of fun.

[Paul W. Downs]

That is a fun. Yeah.

[Lucia Agnello]

Okay, so at the end of season two, Ava has pushed Deborah to work on new material. Um, and that leads to them more.

[Sam Fragoso]

More personal autobiographical material.

[Lucia Agnello]

Exactly. And so that has leads to them creating a new hour long special that she is unable to sell to networks. But then she sells on QVC and it becomes a huge hit on QVC. She sells like 4 million physical copies and then it is purchased by a streamer network. Yeah. And has done really, really well. And at the end of that, Deborah has decided to, quote, fire Ava and send her on her way to go and work on her own material and figure out who she is as a comedian by herself. And so they've separated and we begin season three one year later.

[Sam Fragoso]

When you pick up in season three, they're both not the same kind of underdogs that they were in season one and season two.

[Lucia Agnello]

Exactly.

[Sam Fragoso]

And I've heard both of you describe the show in a bunch of interviews as a program that is showbiz adjacent. Did the attitude or spirit of the show change in the writing of it? A little bit? Especially since the show is focused now on Deborah wanting to work in Los Angeles and become a late night television host. Like, is that underdog spirit still there or was it something else?

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, we wanted to reintroduce it because we always want to make the show feel fresh and Update the stories that we're telling. And yet we also want to give the audience the thing that they've come to know and love, which is this dynamic and also this underdog quality. Both of these women are really striving for dignity more than anything else. And so having this new quest of getting this chair that becomes vacant in late night becomes something for them that makes them the underdog. Because for a network to give a late show to a woman, especially a woman over 70, is a huge mountain to climb.

[Sam Fragoso]

How is she 70?

[Paul W. Downs]

Please. I know.

[Lucia Agnello]

She looks insane.

[Paul W. Downs]

She looks so good.

[Lucia Agnello]

She's so hot.

[Sam Fragoso]

I have a lot of questions about her skincare routine.

[Paul W. Downs]

You gotta get her on. Honestly, I think she'll tell you this. Really? Someone who's focused on that.

[Lucia Agnello]

She really isn't.

[Paul W. Downs]

She isn't.

[Lucia Agnello]

She's not like I'm getting. She's not like I'm going to get a facial. She never talks about it.

[Paul W. Downs]

I think she doesn't worry about it. And I think that's part of the reason she's. You know, she looks so youthful is because she doesn't actually concern herself with it.

[Sam Fragoso]

Who gets more facials, Jean or Paul?

[Paul W. Downs]

I know the answer.

[Lucia Agnello]

Okay, go for it, Paul.

[Paul W. Downs]

I do, but I also just enjoy the experience.

[Sam Fragoso]

She.

[Lucia Agnello]

You can fall asleep in a facial.

[Paul W. Downs]

Oh, it's the best feeling to fall.

[Sam Fragoso]

Asleep anyway because you have so little wrong with you. Is that what's going on?

[Paul W. Downs]

That's very kind. I go for the compliments. I go because I want to hear what is going right.

[Sam Fragoso]

That's why you got into comedy. Right?

[Paul W. Downs]

That is exactly why.

[Lucia Agnello]

A compliment from a facial. That's why you signed up for improv 101.

[Paul W. Downs]

Oof. Could you imagine?

[Sam Fragoso]

It's an interesting plotline because the fact that she is 70 to the network executives precludes her from being considered.

[Lucia Agnello]

Right.

[Sam Fragoso]

Was that your way of once again reworking the show in underdog terms?

[Lucia Agnello]

Exactly. It felt like this is such a wild proposition that to make it actually happen and make it justified would require a full season of a ton of people working extremely hard. Right. And that feels like the right tone for. For Deborah and for her world.

[Sam Fragoso]

Here's a clip from episode four, season three of Hacks.

[Paul W. Downs]

You put someone like Jack Danby behind that desk. Kids aren't getting off TikTok to watch him, and my mom doesn't know who he is, But Deborah sold 4 million physical DVDs last year. Year. I mean, she's a queen of people who can't figure out their Internet with her, you keep the audience you have, plus you're doing something that's never been done before. Jimmy, it's a good pitch, but I just don't think she's it. But I'm going to think about it. You want to play tomorrow morning? Like in 10 hours? Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

See you there, sister.

[Lucia Agnello]

You reserved.

[Paul W. Downs]

See you at seven.

[Lucia Agnello]

Bye.

[Paul W. Downs]

We can't reserve a court if we're non members. How much does it cost to join? 20 grand a year apiece. It'd be less if we were married. How much less?

[Sam Fragoso]

Coming back. That was from season three. In the opening episode of this new season, Deborah and Ava find themselves at the Just for Laughs Comedy Festival in Montreal. This is a real festival that has existed for a long time. A place where the comedy world congregated. New voices could break out. But the festival was canceled this year.

[Lucia Agnello]

Like two weeks before the first season aired.

[Sam Fragoso]

That's right.

[Paul W. Downs]

The third season aired a day after.

[Sam Fragoso]

They announced that the festival would be canceled. They filed for creditor protection and, quote, initiated restructuring proceedings. I don't know what that means.

[Lucia Agnello]

It's Canadian.

[Sam Fragoso]

It sounds bad. It sounds. I mean, is that a Canadian way of saying everyone's fired?

[Lucia Agnello]

I think. Or broke?

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Lucia Agnello]

That's good.

[Sam Fragoso]

It's funny. Cause I think of this show as like such a love letter to comedy.

[Lucia Agnello]

It is.

[Sam Fragoso]

And yet watching this premiere, knowing that it feels more like a remembrance, like, it feels more like a reminder of what comedy was. Where are you two at on all this?

[Paul W. Downs]

That's so sad. That is depressing.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah. And I mean, we've been talking about this a lot, but like, you know, in the last couple years, obviously with just like media consolidation now that there's like so few comedies that are really, you know, on tv, if you look back five, six years ago, there'd be so many more just comedies that existed. There's so many fewer comics that are being made. Something like Comedy Central, who used to make so many comedies, doesn't make any original comedies anymore. That's how we broke in by working on Broad City, you know, and a lot of like, the young people right now, I just feel like I don't. If. When somebody asks me how to break into comedy, I really am like, turn on your camera and like, walk down the street and talk into your microphone and complain about something I really don't know. And I think it is, like, depressing about how these comedy institutions, comedy clubs are closing. It's like.

[Paul W. Downs]

And there's less. There are less late night shows now, I think in every in Every arena there is less and less comedy. And it feels like we need it.

[Lucia Agnello]

More than ever also, because comedy can speak truth to power. I mean, and that is something that I think right now we're really, you know, politically and globally really running into some nasty business. And so it feels like, you know, the more people are out there and having venues in which to talk about what's going on, have other people relate to it and feel more community versus feeling isolated, the fewer avenues you have to do that. I think it's honestly a cultural emergency.

[Sam Fragoso]

In the Hollywood Reporter, you called making comedy in 2024 scary stuff.

[Lucia Agnello]

Eloquent as always.

[Sam Fragoso]

Do you want to comment further?

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah, I mean, no.

[Sam Fragoso]

I mean, like, genuinely. Do the two of you feel just mostly grateful that you got in before the doors closed?

[Paul W. Downs]

We. We do.

[Lucia Agnello]

In one hand, absolutely.

[Sam Fragoso]

Or is there guilt also in that?

[Lucia Agnello]

Incredibly guilty.

[Paul W. Downs]

There's definitely guilt. There's. I mean, there's feelings of gratitude. Certainly. We feel very lucky to make an original comedy, especially one that's about two women. We feel very lucky that we get to tell that story. And we have for three seasons. It's also, we don't exist now in a time when there is the kind of monoculture where everybody's watching a show and everybody's talking about that show. You know, it is much more siloed. And so we came after, I think, a cultural experience that we grew up experiencing. And so it's just. It's weird how quickly things are changing.

[Sam Fragoso]

What are you thinking about when you say that?

[Paul W. Downs]

There is no must see TV where everyone's watching Seinfeld or Friends and being like.

[Sam Fragoso]

Or even 30 rock and parks and Rec.

[Paul W. Downs]

Oh, sure. Yeah. Weirdly, I do think young people are watching. They are watching the Office and they are watching.

[Sam Fragoso]

Right.

[Paul W. Downs]

You know, 30 rock because they can stream it and watch it.

[Sam Fragoso]

Are they watching Hacks?

[Paul W. Downs]

I hope so. I mean, people are watching.

[Lucia Agnello]

We're not really getting the stats.

[Paul W. Downs]

I don't know. I don't know the numbers.

[Sam Fragoso]

They're not. They're not sharing analytics.

[Paul W. Downs]

No, no. You know, we know that we do have a great audience and we're very lucky. Cause that's the thing. Also, to break through now because there is so much is also a huge undertaking.

[Sam Fragoso]

All I know is I turned on Max last night to rewatch a couple scenes from season two, and Hacks was number one in the slot of most streamed right now.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yes.

[Sam Fragoso]

I don't know what the hell that means.

[Paul W. Downs]

It means it's the number one show on the platform that's what it means.

[Sam Fragoso]

I mean, like, for how long? How many people, I think, keep refreshing.

[Lucia Agnello]

Keep refreshing.

[Paul W. Downs]

You'll know when it changes.

[Lucia Agnello]

Every day changes.

[Paul W. Downs]

I think they do update probably every day.

[Sam Fragoso]

Is that what Paul does at home? He just keeps refreshing his Apple tv?

[Paul W. Downs]

That's. That's it. That's all I'm doing is refreshing. I'm trying to turn it on, honestly. I'm looking for the remote. I'm trying to turn it on. I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to connect.

[Lucia Agnello]

My kid has hidden the remote also. Sorry. I want to go back to one thing you were saying about the door closing on comedy in general. I'm not sure it's closing. It just.

[Sam Fragoso]

It feels slightly ajar.

[Lucia Agnello]

It feels only slightly ajar. And nobody really knows how to get through that door right now. I feel like we hear so many tragic stories of like this huge, huge celebrity or comedian came out with this show and couldn't get it sold or had a show at this place and in the last minute they didn't green light it. And these are some of the most popular, biggest comedy stars that exist. And so I think that's just the thing is it feels like nobody really knows what should get made or what will get made. And so everybody's kind. And I mean both on the creator side and also I think on the executive side. I think people are like, what do people want to watch? And are confused. It just feels like a very confusing time for comedy. It's a smaller, confusing window.

[Sam Fragoso]

You mentioned Seinfeld earlier. Speaking of a big comedy star. He recently appeared on the New Yorker.

[Paul W. Downs]

Radio Hour where we're talking Jerry.

[Sam Fragoso]

We're talking Jerry.

[Paul W. Downs]

Okay.

[Lucia Agnello]

Hi, Jerry.

[Sam Fragoso]

Where he was asked about the state of the industry and where he sees comedy in this moment. Should we take a listen? Nothing really affects comedy. People always need it. They need it so badly and they don't get used to be. You would go home at the end of the day. Most people would go, oh, Cheers is on. Oh, MASH is on. Oh, Mary Tyler Moore is on. All in the Family's on. You just expected there'll be some funny stuff we can watch on TV tonight. Well, guess what? Where is it? Where is it? This is the result of the extreme left and PC crap and people worrying so much about offending other people. Now they're going to see stand up comics. Cause we are not policed by anyone. The audience polices us. We know when we're off track. We know instantly and we adjust to it instantly.

[Paul W. Downs]

But when you write a script and.

[Sam Fragoso]

It goes into four or five different hands, committees, groups. Here's our thought about this joke. Well, that's the end of your comedy, Paul.

[Paul W. Downs]

Here's, here's the. Here's the upside of what he said, or what I think is correct, which.

[Sam Fragoso]

Is what he was mother.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah, yeah. So I think, like I was just saying, there is no monoculture. There is no must see tv. There's no thing that we're all, like, watching because it's the only thing. In a way, that's great because there's been more choice for audiences, but in a way that isn't because of the PC police or the left, whatever he's talking about. It's because we all watch content in different ways. Especially young people are online and on their phones. And I think also the reason that less comedies are made is because people are looking to deliver profits for shareholders. And we are now, a lot of the networks are owned by tech conglomerates which are publicly traded and they have to answer to shareholders. And so they need to have the most amount of eyeballs on the biggest thing. And I think that there's a lot of fear around that stuff, but it certainly isn't because of the left.

[Sam Fragoso]

Quote, the extreme left and PC crap.

[Paul W. Downs]

The extreme left and PC crap. That is. That's not why there are less comedies.

[Lucia Agnello]

I'm like, have you seen an episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? Have you seen Sorry Hacks? I'm like, we have never. I'm like, deborah is somebody who is.

[Paul W. Downs]

Not to answer him. Where is the comedy? It is on Max and it is hacks. So he can stream it at any time. Actually, that's the great thing is, where am I gonna see it after work? Well, you could see it after work or before work. You can stream it. You can actually watch our comedy any time of day or night. And you can laugh because it is funny and it is funny. First, it's a hard comedy.

[Lucia Agnello]

It's certainly never gotten funny.

[Sam Fragoso]

He's getting older. He's not working that much.

[Paul W. Downs]

Hey, he can watch it midday. He can watch it before his nap. He can watch it whenever the heck he wants to watch it.

[Sam Fragoso]

How many naps do you think he takes a day?

[Paul W. Downs]

I hope he takes a couple.

[Lucia Agnello]

I actually hope he just powers through and goes to bed early.

[Sam Fragoso]

Let me tell you, based on that interview, there's no napping.

[Paul W. Downs]

But I also don't think that in, like, I do think that there's this thing about, oh, you can't make comedy because you're going to be police, and you can't say things. It's like, no, you can say anything. The fact is, is that cultural context has shifted, and we are now more aware of the harm comedy can do or the harm anything can do.

[Sam Fragoso]

Right.

[Paul W. Downs]

But to be able to be funny and hit a target that isn't harmful is still very, very easy. There is a way to make comedy that isn't something that's going to be protested, but it doesn't mean it's not funny.

[Lucia Agnello]

Absolutely. I mean, it's like, we've never once gotten a note about something is going to offend anybody.

[Paul W. Downs]

No.

[Lucia Agnello]

And of course, we've had conversations in the room about, like, is this going to make somebody feel bad? And I think his point is that, like, somebody is probably thinking someone with dyed hair and a nose ring is gonna say, this makes me feel bad. But I'm like, well, no. I mean, I. I just don't feel like that there's an oversensitivity, actually on the extreme left, if anything, there's an oversensitivity on maybe extreme anything. Extreme anything is just.

[Paul W. Downs]

I think, on either side, you can have criticism. And the fact is, is that you can make comedy and it's allowed to be criticized. I think a lot of comedians, especially ones who are very established and oftentimes a little bit older, feel very attacked, and they feel like their entire body of work is attacked or their entire being is attacked when people respond negatively to things. And the fact is, is, and we say this in our show, you can be rich and famous and make money because you're a comedian, and people can have their reactions, and that's okay. And the fact is, is that they're entitled to those reactions. And you should also shift the way in which you are making comedy based on where culture is, because, quite frankly, there is a lot of things in history that we did, whether it's as a people or as a country or whatever, that no longer works.

[Sam Fragoso]

Can you rank them for us?

[Lucia Agnello]

I mean, 1492.

[Paul W. Downs]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lucia Agnello]

Also, I think that there tends to be a thing with comedians where they had. Especially comedians who had extreme fame at a certain moment. And anytime that we start to evolve as a culture and people say, actually, that was maybe not so good that. That. That made people feel bad. In retrospect, that joke wasn't great. They get sensitive because that's when they were the top of the world.

[Sam Fragoso]

But the oddest part of that is no one is saying that about Seinfeld. No, Seinfeld has endured.

[Lucia Agnello]

Right.

[Paul W. Downs]

That's the thing.

[Lucia Agnello]

Show about nothing.

[Sam Fragoso]

It's kind of unblemished, though. I mean, the bits mostly work. Even the ones that go like, oh, my God, Kramer, the unhoused people and a rickshaw. It's still mostly. It's still mostly words.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah. It is interesting why he in particular is so sensitive about it.

[Paul W. Downs]

He hasn't been attacked, but hasn't he also said that he won't do colleges?

[Lucia Agnello]

Yes, he has, but I am like.

[Paul W. Downs]

Okay, well, what's your material, though?

[Sam Fragoso]

This conversation is one that happens on the show between Deborah and Ava, like, throughout this season. The intergenerational sparring about what is appropriate in comedy and what crosses a line and where that line is for the two of you. How do you two hold these dueling perspectives amongst yourselves?

[Paul W. Downs]

I think when we're writing these characters, we try and write them in a way that neither is 100% right or 100% wrong. You know, Deborah, in the first episode of the first season says, ava says, I think I crossed a line with this joke that kind of got me blacklisted. And Deborah says, there is no line. It's just not funny. And I think to someone like Deborah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Do you believe that?

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, what I do believe is that you can satirize or explore or examine anything in culture. But I think there is a way to do it that isn't harmful. You know, I think there's a way to unpack and examine things, even if those things are stereotypes, for example, that aren't making them true in your material. And so in that way, I think it is about the execution of the material. It's not like this is completely off limits. It's like, no, we can deal with something. I mean, even in Hannah Gatsby's special, she deals with sexual assault. And she deals with that in a way that is enlightening and is often very funny, but isn't. It's not like she's making fun of a victim of sexual assault, you know, So I don't think that there's anything that you can't explore. It's about the way in which it's done, and it's about the thoughtfulness and the inventiveness in which you make comedy around it. And I think that's the thing. A lot of the stuff that's the most offensive is low hanging fruit. It's the easy joke. It's the duh joke.

[Lucia Agnello]

And that inventiveness, for some reason is really hard for people to want to do. They don't really want to evolve as people or evolve their thinking. They're very sure that this ideal that they have is so correct that they should be able to make jokes about it. And if anybody doesn't like it, that means they're easily offended. But it's simply them not wanting to question their own beliefs and not wanting to interrogate it and. And turn it over and consider and.

[Paul W. Downs]

But you know what? All of these people, I think all these people look up to and respect someone like Carlin. And he's somebody who evolved his point of view and changed the material he was doing and changed the way he was talking about the same kinds of things. And it's because he had that flexibility and that, like, ability to change his point of view that made him relevant throughout his career and made him someone who was, like, so thought provoking. And a lot of his stuff was provocative and a lot of his stuff touched on things that someone might say, whoa, that's scary to get into, because it could be problematic. But it wasn't problematic because he was speaking truth to power and he was examining things and talking about his personal point of view on them.

[Sam Fragoso]

In episode four of this new season, Deborah is invited to a gathering with fellow comedians that are all men over the age of 65, I think. And there is this interaction where, you know, she's sparring over the word bisexual and can they really exist? And this old crotchety group of men saying, oh, come on, like, that's not real. And so it does seem like, I guess I'm posing this to you too, that you want Deborah, you want Jerry Seinfeld to maybe take a step forward with everyone else. Is that fair?

[Lucia Agnello]

Absolutely. Like, I think, and we also, in that same breath, acknowledge how hard it is for that person to do it. She, this whole time, is always resisting Ava's pov and they are bickering and they're fighting about it. And I think that episode is a moment where she has to actually decide, has some of this Ava's. Ava's psychology seeped in? And do I actually believe it, or am I willing to joke around with these guys whose approval I've wanted for so long? And it is a bit of a moment where she has to make a bigger decision. And as you can see, she actually does believe that bisexuals are, as she says, an elite few are actually bisexual. And so we know that, you know, she does believe it. And she, and. And Ava's constant yapping in her ear has seeped in and. And it is only from them bashing their heads together over and over and over that they've started to bleed into each other's minds.

[Sam Fragoso]

Watching that interaction reminded me of, of conversations with my parents.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Where they go, okay, you know, you start them on a certain term that they don't know about, an idea that they are resistant to. And gradually, over years, like the good son of a lawyer that I am, I have worn them down. And slowly but surely, they have opened their hearts and minds to new ideas.

[Lucia Agnello]

Good for you. My parents do. Both of our parents have been. Have really kept up with the times in a way that is really awesome and cool.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

After the break, the origin story of Lucia Agnello and Paul W. Downs. Stay with us.

[Lucia Agnello]

Hey, Julia, Louis Dreyfus here. If you listen to me on my Wiser Than Me podcast, you probably already know that I'm an investor and an evangelist for the mill food recycling. There are a lot of reasons to love mill, but for me, it's all about the impact. Keeping food out of the garbage is one of the most powerful things we can do to help the planet every single day. We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you already compost, great. But of course, there's the smell, the flies, the running to the curb every day with a little leaking compost bag made of cornstarch. That's where mill comes in. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. It can handle nearly anything from a turkey carcass to like 20 avocado pits. It works automatically while you sleep. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never, ever smells. Mill makes dry, nutrient rich grounds that you can use in your garden, add to your compost feed to your chickens. Or mill can get them back to a small farm for you, but you kind of have to live with mill to really get it. And that's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Sam Fragoso]

I think it's clear by now with the show that I'm not exactly into chasing trends. But I am about stuff that fits right, feels good, and actually lasts. That's why I keep coming back to quince. Their lightweight layers and high quality staples have become part of my everyday essentials. Quince has the kind of stuff that you'll actually wear on repeat, like breathable flowknit polos, comfortable, lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dress up dinners. The best part? Everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands. I didn't exactly understand how they got to those prices when I went on the website. But then it became clear by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quints is able to give you luxury products without the markups. And most notably, Quintz only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices, not to mention premium fabrics and finishes. Stick to the staples at last with elevated essentials from Quince. Go to quince.comtalkeasy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Quince Q U-I-N-C-E.com Talkeasy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Talk Easy and now back to the show coming back. We've been talking about the state of comedy, but also this pipeline that feels like it's from a before time that doesn't exactly exist. And I want to just talk about how you two came up together. So the two of you are like fresh out of college. Paul, you invented your own major at Duke studying public policy and cultural anthropology. Couldn't imagine a more white straight guy thing to do.

[Paul W. Downs]

It sounds so horrible. It's just. Please cut it out. Don't tell people.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah, no, we're not cutting that. Lucia, at Columbia you majored at film and media studies and yet and probably. Wait, did you actually create the major?

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, they have something at Duke called program two, which is like Gallatin at nyu. It's a thing where you can take classes from any discipline and yeah, create your own major. So I got to take classes with such crazy, brilliant professors that, you know, the title of the major was one thing, but it ended up being about who was the best teachers.

[Lucia Agnello]

He also took one for a half credit massage class.

[Paul W. Downs]

I did take a massage therapy class for half credit because I think it was a requirement, weirdly that you had to take a phys ed class. I don't know if that's true, but maybe I just told myself I have to do it. And I did a massage therapy class where half of it was you would give a massage and learn technique and the other half you would get one.

[Sam Fragoso]

So the two of you finished college, your created major and your established major, and the two of you improbably find yourselves at a one on one improv class at UCB in New York City circa 2007.

[Paul W. Downs]

Around then. It's more improbable for Lucia because she was also. You're also an athlete in a D1 school and wasn't as immersed in the comedy scene in college as I was. I was also majoring in improv at school. I did sketch in improv, and it was like, yes, I took a lot of classes, but every single night I was doing that, like a real dork. So for me, this was grad school. There is a track, and I like ucp, clearly, so.

[Sam Fragoso]

But when the two of you find yourselves in this class, Paul, you arrive to the class first.

[Paul W. Downs]

I do.

[Sam Fragoso]

Because you're anxious and want to be there early. You, Lucia, seemed to stroll in at a casual time.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Ready to go.

[Lucia Agnello]

Which is interesting because I'm not actually usually that late.

[Paul W. Downs]

Do you remember why you were late?

[Lucia Agnello]

I was coming from so far away. Honestly, I lived in Bushwick at the time.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

When you walked into the class, do you remember noticing Paul?

[Lucia Agnello]

I don't remember that moment of, like, noticing him that day, but I do. I did remember, like, remember him after the first class.

[Sam Fragoso]

Why did you remember?

[Lucia Agnello]

I thought he was cute.

[Paul W. Downs]

That's sweet. I remember her walking in. I remember what you were wearing. You were wearing a purple polo shirt. And I remember her walking into class casually. Late. Casually. No, fashionably. Late.

[Lucia Agnello]

Fashionably. Yeah. Let's. Let's amend her.

[Paul W. Downs]

And I think she came into the cause. I think we were all. This is so cut this out. I think we were circled up doing a warmup, and I think she joined the circle and said, what are we doing? In a very confident way.

[Lucia Agnello]

I had not done improv before. I had seen it, though, because I was in a sorority in Columbia.

[Sam Fragoso]

So you're in a circle warming up. And what's that warm up like? Was scene work part of that first day?

[Lucia Agnello]

Probably, yeah, for sure.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Do you remember what you two did?

[Lucia Agnello]

I don't remember what. I don't remember the scenes, and I don't remember pretty much any scenes from the six plus years of doing. But I do remember in that class, Paul doing something. And I did turn to the teacher, hi, Tara. And I said, write that down, because I thought it was so funny, which is insane considering I was a student and she was my teacher and I.

[Paul W. Downs]

Was teaching her teacher, I guess. And it also is in line with someone walking in and saying, what are we up to? You know, as if she was the assistant director.

[Lucia Agnello]

It's. You know, when you. When you. When you look back at what people are telling you, go, Jesus Christ. But at the time, it just seemed normal.

[Sam Fragoso]

So if I gave you two a suggestion to reenact a Scene. Could. Could you do it?

[Paul W. Downs]

Yes.

[Lucia Agnello]

I couldn't reen. Oh, that scene.

[Paul W. Downs]

We couldn't reenact it. Can I.

[Sam Fragoso]

Give me one.

[Paul W. Downs]

You mean, could we improvise? Oh, no, no.

[Sam Fragoso]

I'll give you one. Yeah.

[Lucia Agnello]

Okay.

[Paul W. Downs]

Oh, my God.

[Sam Fragoso]

How about getting arrested on edibles?

[Lucia Agnello]

Okay. I was. I was.

[Paul W. Downs]

Oh, no, Paul, I don't think my mom knows this story. Well. Well, you found it somewhere.

[Sam Fragoso]

But this was an early bonding experience. The two of you.

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, yes.

[Lucia Agnello]

Okay.

[Paul W. Downs]

When you go through something trauma, you.

[Lucia Agnello]

Don'T have to tell if you don't want to do it.

[Paul W. Downs]

You do whatever you want.

[Lucia Agnello]

I'm just here.

[Paul W. Downs]

I'm just here to listen to you. I actually wasn't. She was booked. I'm just here.

[Lucia Agnello]

Okay, so here's the story.

[Sam Fragoso]

It'd be better if you told it together.

[Lucia Agnello]

Okay.

[Paul W. Downs]

Okay.

[Lucia Agnello]

We're in New York. Paul had a car at the time in the city because there was parking for some reason kind of near my building.

[Paul W. Downs]

You could kind of park. So I had. You know, I had just graduated from college, and so I, you know, drove it, and I would keep it in the city not far from my apartment.

[Lucia Agnello]

And we were in. We went to a place.

[Paul W. Downs]

This was in Brooklyn.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah. We went to a party in Chelsea, and I was high, and I was not.

[Paul W. Downs]

I was sober, but someone gave me a cookie that I found out had marijuana in it. Okay. Didn't know I was tricked. I did say to Lucia, we should go now, because I'm driving home, my car's here, and I probably. I don't even know. I have, like, 20 minutes before I. I shouldn't drive. So let's go now. I. But I absolutely was 100, sober and good to drive.

[Lucia Agnello]

And within 30 seconds of us driving.

[Paul W. Downs]

Away, we get pulled over within a block. And it was because I think there was a party, and people. I think there was. There was some.

[Sam Fragoso]

They were scoping out.

[Paul W. Downs]

They were scoping out the party. So we're waiting. They asked for my license and registration. I hand it over, and I'm like, don't worry. Don't worry. It's fine. I'm. You know, there's no reason for them to pull me over. Even though they said the tags on your license plate are. Are not updated, which was probably true. So they take my license and registration. They go back. We're waiting, and we're waiting, and we're waiting.

[Lucia Agnello]

Another cop car shows up, and then.

[Paul W. Downs]

A third cop car shows up, and I'm like, oh, man, what is going on? And it's Taking so long that I'm like, they need to issue me a ticket. Do whatever they need to do soon because I have limited time.

[Sam Fragoso]

And how long had the two of you been dating at that point?

[Lucia Agnello]

We were like a couple years. Yeah.

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, there was like, gray area.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah, there was gray area.

[Paul W. Downs]

You're like, let's talk about.

[Sam Fragoso]

The guys were having fun.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah.

[Paul W. Downs]

Okay.

[Sam Fragoso]

We were riding together.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah. Yeah, we were dating. But it became serious after this because about. About 10 minutes later, which seemed like hours.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah.

[Paul W. Downs]

They came back and said, do you remember getting a ticket for not wearing your seatbelt from a few years earlier? And I was like, I do remember it. And they said, well, you never paid it. And I said, I'm sure I paid it because don't they send you like a letter in the mail or like.

[Sam Fragoso]

A bill, a follow up?

[Paul W. Downs]

And they said, they do. Do you still live in North Carolina? Which is where I went to college and where my license was from. I said, no. And they said, well, that's where they sent the late notices and also the warrant for your arrest. Step out of the vehicle. And I. I do think when I heard that, I went, oh, God, yes. I don't know why I thought this is an inconvenience, but it's not. It just didn't seem, you know, luckily for me, I was like, well, it's about. It's a clerical error. It's something I get out of the car.

[Sam Fragoso]

I will say, Paul, I mean this as a compliment. You do look like someone that could only get arrested over a Clara Claire.

[Paul W. Downs]

Thank you. I appreciate that. That's good. That's fine.

[Sam Fragoso]

There's just no way. If you saw Paul in the back of a cop car, you'd be like.

[Paul W. Downs]

But I tell you what, Clerical error.

[Sam Fragoso]

Or white collar crime?

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, I'm going to follow up with. There are a few times when we were living in New York when I would be. The police were after me. I know you say that, but anyway.

[Sam Fragoso]

So they were targeting you?

[Paul W. Downs]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Lucia Agnello]

The cops in New York, you know, So I.

[Paul W. Downs]

They basically, they handcuffed me and they said to Lucia, take his wallet, his watch and his cell phone. So she takes my wallet, my watch and my cell phone. And I said, oh, well, Lucia does. Yes. And now don't forget, Lucia is under the influence.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah.

[Paul W. Downs]

And when I hand her my. My. Or when she takes my wallet, my watch and my cell phone, I said, well, she goes, call me. And I said, well, you have my cell phone. How am I going to call you. I don't know your number. Now, this is like year 2007. Nobody knows anybody's number. It's in a phone, but I'm handcuffed. And she says, you don't know my number.

[Lucia Agnello]

Now, I'd like to interject here.

[Sam Fragoso]

Why?

[Lucia Agnello]

Because I did not say it like that at all.

[Paul W. Downs]

I will say all of the cops giggled. All of the cops giggled.

[Lucia Agnello]

I did it as a joke, actually. I was like, you don't know my number. And they laughed. I got a good laugh out of it. I thought, like, guys, let's keep laughing. Let's undo these handcuffs. Let's have a good time.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah, I'm having a great time. They're dragging me to the. They're dragging me me to the big house.

[Lucia Agnello]

You're trying to change the tenor. I'm trying to change. I'm trying to reverse the curse of this.

[Sam Fragoso]

You thought the last would lead to freedom?

[Lucia Agnello]

100%.

[Paul W. Downs]

They didn't. They brought me to.

[Lucia Agnello]

I failed.

[Paul W. Downs]

They brought me to.

[Lucia Agnello]

Just like Jerry Seinfeld said, you can't say anything anymore.

[Paul W. Downs]

They brought me down and put me in a group cell. And it was unbelievable.

[Sam Fragoso]

Now let me ask you this. The edible hit while you were in prison?

[Paul W. Downs]

No, while I was getting fingerprinted. Literally, as I'm getting fingerprinted, I was like. And I was like, oh, no.

[Sam Fragoso]

But. But every hour they let you make a phone call.

[Paul W. Downs]

I did call the G. Almost every hour.

[Sam Fragoso]

I heard about that. And you did bits.

[Paul W. Downs]

I would do bits. I'm like, daddy's in the clink. Yeah. I don't know why I became like.

[Lucia Agnello]

He would do bits. And I thought it was so funny, old timey, that in jail he would call to do bits and like, like workshop stuff and tell me to write things down.

[Paul W. Downs]

Hey, sweetheart, Daddy's in the clink. And I was experiencing things that I'm like, this is nuts.

[Lucia Agnello]

He tried to set up his friend with somebody that he met in jail.

[Paul W. Downs]

I did. I did meet somebody that was. That was arrested for, like, protesting or something. And I was like, I have a really. I have a really political activist friend who you might like. And then I told her, yeah, an Occupy person. And I got out and told my friend, and she was like, are you. Are you kidding me? You're telling me about someone that you.

[Sam Fragoso]

Met in jail when he's calling you and doing bits on the hour in, what is, I'm guessing, for his life, one of his darkest hours?

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Did you go, maybe this is a serious relationship?

[Lucia Agnello]

Literally. Literally. I was like, so funny. I was like, that is so funny. He's doing bits. I was like, that's it. Like, I'm really into life bits. I'm into people, like, doing bits. Not for, like, I'm gonna workshop this for my hour or whatever that just do bits in life.

[Sam Fragoso]

Right.

[Lucia Agnello]

You know, like, at the time, he had a Twitter called that's so Raven, where he would just retweet things that Raven Simone said and say, that's a raven.

[Paul W. Downs]

That was a good Twitter.

[Sam Fragoso]

You know what I mean?

[Lucia Agnello]

He would just do. He wasn't gonna. Nothing was gonna happen from that. He'd just do bits.

[Sam Fragoso]

By the way, you didn't need to tell me that nothing was gonna happen from that.

[Paul W. Downs]

It wasn't gonna get me.

[Lucia Agnello]

So it was like he was doing life bits, which I love. And also, I was really worried about him. And so that is.

[Paul W. Downs]

It became funny, I think, in the moment when you came down. Cause she came down to the precinct, and I think when she saw where I was, I think then it became scary for sure.

[Sam Fragoso]

So him going to jail got the two of you out of the gray area of your relationship?

[Lucia Agnello]

I think it did.

[Paul W. Downs]

It certainly heated things up.

[Lucia Agnello]

It moved things forward.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Lucia Agnello]

Well, I think as it was like, you know, we met the week I turned 22. We were so young.

[Paul W. Downs]

And also. Yeah, I think for me, it was like, the only person that I really want to call, even for comfort in this moment, is Lucia.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah.

[Paul W. Downs]

I also didn't want to worry my parents. They would have been very worried.

[Lucia Agnello]

But I think just in that time, it did clarify things for me.

[Sam Fragoso]

When you think back on the early years of your relationship, did you two make more sense as writing partners or romantic partners? What came first in that?

[Lucia Agnello]

Well, romantic was before writing.

[Sam Fragoso]

Okay.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Lucia Agnello]

Just in terms of the order of what actually happened.

[Paul W. Downs]

That's true. We were on an improv team together, so we were doing comedy together, but we weren't writing together. Eventually, Lucia said, you know, we should start making videos so people can actually see them. Because as much as we had fun doing sketch and improv, the theater had 150 seats, and it was hard to get your voice and your name out there.

[Lucia Agnello]

And also, he was far more successful than I was, and I was like, I want to be doing stuff too, so why don't we work on videos?

[Sam Fragoso]

Late 2000s, early 2000s.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yes.

[Sam Fragoso]

You start making videos, you learn how to edit on YouTube.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yes.

[Sam Fragoso]

Like through YouTube tutorials.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yes.

[Sam Fragoso]

Did the two of you making videos, did it make Sense right away. Did it seem positive?

[Lucia Agnello]

Oh, definitely.

[Paul W. Downs]

It was so fun.

[Lucia Agnello]

And I mean, I was also making videos with other people at the time as well, which was also positive and good, but it just wasn't the exact same speed, if you know what I mean. Like, you know, some people are just more casual about doing it and some people are. And I think we were in this category, more ambitious about it. But it's like, funny thing to say, ambitious about comedy, you know, but there certainly are people that you interact with that are that.

[Paul W. Downs]

And this sounds so lame, but it felt like. It did feel like we were like, oh, this is our calling. This is what we're gonna do. It really felt like, oh, great, we're making comedy. And there was something about the fact that you could just collaborate with people that we were meeting and then put it on YouTube and people could see it and react to it, and it was just like, okay, we're on the track for the thing we want to be doing.

[Sam Fragoso]

There was a vision.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Lucia Agnello]

And also it. It tapped into a lot of things that we both were interested in, like music and you know, even like the production design of things or like, how things would look. And like, we weren't just making videos just to be like, haha, that's a funny idea. That was part of it. But we were starting to, like, try to make things look good and edit them in a way that felt different. And we were really trying to, like, we didn't really realize it, but we were like. It was like early showrunner days, but just with like, videos that had like a $300 budget.

[Sam Fragoso]

Throughout this conversation, we've been talking about a pipeline where, like, you make videos on YouTube and then college humor, then Comedy Central, and eventually you, you know, make Broad City with. With Ilana Glaser and Abby Jacobson. Is this the pipeline that you were talking about? The one that doesn't totally feel like it's here anymore?

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah, I mean, we used to. We. We'd get money from above average, which was like a digital arm of Broadway video, and they gave us money to make videos. I don't really know if that kind of a thing exists anymore. And then exactly like making stuff for Comedy Central that doesn't really exist anymore.

[Paul W. Downs]

I don't know, but I feel like even just doing stuff on YouTube doesn't exist in the way it does. I mean, they were earlier generation than we were, but I feel like Lonely island was discovered for us now off of doing YouTube videos, I think. Is that right? I don't know.

[Sam Fragoso]

The Donald Glover and Derek.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah, the Derek people. Like, that was a thing that was happening. And I don't. I don't think that.

[Sam Fragoso]

Which came in and out of UCB as well.

[Paul W. Downs]

Absolutely. And yeah, I don't think that that is the same anymore.

[Sam Fragoso]

So all those people we just mentioned, whether it's Alana or Abby or a Donald Glover type, they're either at UCB in New York or Los Angeles. They're performing around New York City or Los Angeles. You were talking about ambition earlier, which you thought was kind of a funny word to use around comedy. But all of those people had one really clear visions for what they wanted to do. When did the two of you start to go? I think I see a roadmap.

[Paul W. Downs]

For us, there was no roadmap, but I know that we gravitated first toward each other because we had a similar vision of what we wanted to happen and the things that we wanted to make. And it's why we became so close with Abby and Alana, because they were doing the same thing. And they also. We really recognized that kind of vision and ambition, I think, in the other people.

[Lucia Agnello]

That's a great example of speed. When I was saying on the same. We were not on the same train as them necessarily. I mean, we helped worked on the web series a little bit, but we were all going the same speed.

[Sam Fragoso]

Right.

[Paul W. Downs]

We were all making things and then we were all starting to think about how to pitch things for tv. We all wanted to get legit and be on tv to make film and.

[Sam Fragoso]

Television, to make a life out of it.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yes. To be filmmakers. I mean, all of us wanted to be filmmakers in some way or another. And I think that was true of the people in Derek or the. You know, I think that was true of a lot of these people that we came up with.

[Lucia Agnello]

But I think for us, for me anyways, I think as soon as we started making stuff, it felt immediately correct. I think like our tastes really aligned in every way. We were having fun and it just felt easy and it's. And it has continued to feel that way. Obviously, you know, the pressures of having more budgets and whether it's feature films or whatever, it is like there's a whole other. That's a whole other world. But like it's still, at so many moments is still that fun excitement.

[Sam Fragoso]

Can we talk about the movie you two made?

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

So you're working on Broad City, and the two of you write this spec script called Rough Night and you get Scarlett Johansson cast. It comes out in 2017. And in it, she plays a kind of, like, Hillary Clinton, like, politician running for office. Watching a movie from 2017 feels like it might as well have come out in, like, 1977. You feel so far away.

[Paul W. Downs]

Classic from right now, it feels like a classic.

[Sam Fragoso]

That's exactly what I mean.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

And not that the last seven years have felt like five decades. When the two of you started making that movie, how did you think about what you wanted to do? Because at that point, you'd only made television. Right. In retrospect, when you look at it, do you see it as a kind of precursor to hacks?

[Paul W. Downs]

When we wrote that script, we just thought, oh, this is a funny idea, and this would be a fun thing to do in a similar way to when we were making videos, like, a fun thing to do together, that we could put funny people we know in and sort of make something small and dark and funny. And then it sold to a big studio and we suddenly had a movie star attached to it. And so it did become something much different than I think we initially even conceptualized it to be. I think we were like, oh, this is a little indie we're going to make, and it'll be dark and funny and we'll see. And then it became a much larger undertaking.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah. And I don't. I think maybe that is kind of something that, like, if you are delivering on, like, a small, weird, dark thing, it gets to be a small, weird, dark thing. And then when you have a bigger budget and a lot of movie stars in it, then people just see it in a different way, and it. They have different expectations for it, even if it just happens to have those people in it. And it still has the heart, I think. And when I haven't watched in a while, but of just all that fun, dark, weird.

[Sam Fragoso]

What I'm trying to get at is the voice. Right. There's such a clear voice in hacks. And I wonder, like, when you're making your first movie and all of a sudden, like, Scarlett Johansson's doing it, and I think Sony bought it. I don't really remember. How do you hold onto the thing that's the two of you writing with, like, the lights off, going in different rooms and working on jokes and then bringing the scenes back together, how do you hold onto that?

[Paul W. Downs]

That's hard to do with a studio movie, particularly, because, unlike in television, there's testing. So testing really changes an edit, changes the way things are, what stays in the movie and what doesn't. And so I think it's hard to do that. I think it's really hard to do that. I think, in terms of, like, our voice, there are still scenes in there that it's ultimately about friendship and about connection of these women who are in this movie. And I think there are scenes that are heartfelt as well as being funny. So I do think you can see our voice in it, definitely. And the same is true, I think, in the episodes that we have more to do with. On Broad City, too, I think you could see some of the precursor to Hacks, but it's also, I think, no matter what we're doing, and particularly maybe because when we were making videos, sometimes they were parody, and when we did parody videos, we tried really hard to adapt our storytelling visually and in terms of the content to what we were parodying.

[Sam Fragoso]

So sort of chameleonic, then.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah, I think. I think, like, the. All of it, the look, the tone, the feel, the. Everything is in service of the story we're telling.

[Lucia Agnello]

But I think the thing that they all have in common is we're always just trying to reflect life in a real way, which, like, can be funny and sad and gross and whatever, like. And so I think that if you look at all three of those things particular, like, in a row, I think that, like, tonally, they do feel the same to me. I mean, obviously, Broad City was a little bit broader. Yeah. Sketchier at times. But I do think that if you look at Rough night and then Hacks, there are some. I definitely think there's a lot of DNA there. Jen wasn't, but she was on set for a fair amount of it, helping us with jokes on set and stuff, too. So her, you know, fingerprints are on that as well.

[Sam Fragoso]

Speaking of Jen, the three of you, I think, in 2016, go on this road trip to Portland, Maine. Is that right?

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah, From Boston.

[Sam Fragoso]

You're making this special for Netflix called the Characters, and the two of you, like, in the car, start talking about what would become Hacks.

[Lucia Agnello]

The three of us?

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah, the three of you. What did that conversation sound like?

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, we were talking about a lot of female comedians that had come up in the 70s and 80s and 90s and who. You know, one thing is that we all came from, you know, the ucb, which was like, this alt comedy scene, and there was this, like, thing of around, like, cool comedy. What was cool and what was a little bit, like, passe or whatever. And I think it was just. We were just talking about, like, people that had potentially had a great deal to do with the legacy of comedy, especially female comics who were misjudged in that way and who not only paved the way for a lot of comedians, both male and female, but who'd never got the do that a lot of their counterparts did. And so we were just talking about those kinds of women.

[Lucia Agnello]

It's like kind of easy to be like, what did these men who were standups in the 80s and 90s, they went off to write on shows or have their own shows, but like, they just didn't have the counterpart for women. They're like, you know, somebody like Kathy Griffin, she's the best part of Suddenly Susan or whatever, and then doesn't get to have her own show. And then what has she left? You know, that's just an example of like, then what is she doing? You know, and what does the rest of her career look like? There's no blueprint for that, but there is for a lot of men.

[Sam Fragoso]

It's true of a lot of directors that are women from the 80s and 90s.

[Lucia Agnello]

There's so many that. And I think we were just kind of like, how does one. And I think Paul and Jen and I have a lot of reverence for especially these kinds of women who have come up and who paved the way for, for, for other female comics. And I think we were like, well, you know, it'd be interesting to see somebody, a younger woman like Ava's, you know, younger than we are, but we're closer to Ava's age. And it's so easy for her to say that she's a hack or whatever, but to actually understand, like she's had to become a hack because of just society not letting her be just a easygoing, free flowing, happy comedian. She had so few paths at like becoming like doing QVC or doing whatever kind of red carpety things or whatever have been kind of relegated to do is because they had no other choice. And to be able to say like, this is why this person has become this. They had no other choice. How dare you judge them for what they are. You wouldn't be here if it weren't for them.

[Paul W. Downs]

And there was also this experience and there's no one name of like, oh, this person's obituary. But we had this experience which might feel familiar to people, where you read an obituary usually or often I would say about a woman in show business and you'd be like, why have I never heard of this person? Like when you read the history of their work, even if it's someone that was a Broadway star, it would be wild to experience like, how, how is this Person, not more a part of popular culture. It's just something about, like, the people that are forgotten in show business who had such lasting legacies. And what is it like to be someone who didn't know their name, you know? And what would it be like to have a character like Ava start to understand someone before the rest of the world did and help potentially change that.

[Sam Fragoso]

Person at the end of this road trip, it's my understanding that you wrote an email to yourself and Jen and Lucia. Is that right?

[Paul W. Downs]

That's right.

[Sam Fragoso]

What did that sound like?

[Paul W. Downs]

The subject was show idea. And it was about. Yeah, exactly. What the show is like. Female standup and hires young writer. You know, it was. It was essentially just that.

[Lucia Agnello]

It was very intergenerational.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah, it was very short. The email.

[Sam Fragoso]

What did you think when you read it?

[Lucia Agnello]

Well, we typically send those emails when we're all together because, like, whenever we have an idea, like, if we have an idea for hacks, we send an email. The subject. We write jokes, hacks. And so that way we can easily search everything. So if I'm like, what are hacks Jokes? I just go, hacks, jokes, search subject. And then everything comes up. And so we do that for every project we have.

[Paul W. Downs]

And if we were, you know, here on your show and something came up and we were like, that's a great show idea. We would start a chain with the three of us, and then it would be like, that's a great idea.

[Lucia Agnello]

We'd go, Sam for go. So show jokes.

[Paul W. Downs]

And then anytime we were together and we experienced a piece of material that worked for it, we would just email it.

[Lucia Agnello]

We'd respond to that.

[Paul W. Downs]

We would see you at a party, and something funny would happen, and we would say, that's actually good for the show we talked about.

[Lucia Agnello]

And then he or I or you would send an email about what we talked about while we're still together so we don't forget it. So I wasn't like, oh, my gosh, that was a good idea. I'm. And we're like, I'm emailing it so that we remember.

[Sam Fragoso]

I love this.

[Paul W. Downs]

I do think that's true of a lot of comedians. It's like, oh, you're hanging out. And then you're like, you'll see a comedian write something down. You know, I think a lot of times standups will do that. And actually Deborah does it in the pilot of Hack. She says a joke that Christopher McDonald's character Marty laughs at, and she takes out her notebook and writes it down. So.

[Lucia Agnello]

And we also Just like, know the painful feeling. Be like, God, that was something we thought of, something funny. What was that we had?

[Paul W. Downs]

That's the worst feeling.

[Lucia Agnello]

And that has happened to us. And that's why we do the immediate emailing.

[Paul W. Downs]

It's happened to us. It happens to us all the time recently.

[Sam Fragoso]

And I'm like, so you have the email threads with collaborators, friends of yours. You have the writing process where the two of you write the same scene separately, then come back together and basically pluck the highlights from each. And it's fascinating because when Rough Night came out, the two of you did a podcast in which Paul said, rough Night is about feeling guilty about putting your career first, which is something Lucia and I can relate to. And I was thinking about that with season two and season three of Hacks, and where you two are at with that guilt now, given that that was seven years ago, Global pandemic, a new HBO show, a child. Is that something that's still top of mind?

[Lucia Agnello]

I think less so for me.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah. I think what is top of mind is something we really unpack in hacks, and that is what it's like to be a creative person and feel like if it is what you've chosen to pursue, it means you always have homework, you always have something to think about. And Ava says this to Deborah in season two. She says, you know, sometimes it feels like there's nothing more important, you know, for better or worse. But I do feel like I don't have. I don't have guilt around it, but it is something that I. Yeah, I don't have guilt around it.

[Lucia Agnello]

I think we also, especially now that we have a kid, I think we're like, well, we're definitely doing not work stuff because that takes up so much time. And I'm like, we spend so much time with him and we love him, but it makes me feel like, you know, I definitely don't have, if anything, at this point in my life. To be totally honest, the only thing that I, like, don't pay attention to enough is myself.

[Sam Fragoso]

Can we watch that scene you're talking about?

[Paul W. Downs]

Sure.

[Sam Fragoso]

That's from season two, episode five, Good Memory.

[Paul W. Downs]

I should have just retired and gone out on top.

[Lucia Agnello]

Who are you kidding?

[Paul W. Downs]

You could never retire. You're gonna be up on that stage until you die at 109. I'm the same way. I can't turn it off either. And nothing matters more, even if it should. Well, shit, you're right. And I don't want to stop. I like the work. You know, Deborah, back in Big as.

[Lucia Agnello]

You were, on top.

[Paul W. Downs]

But with all due respect, I think that was just a hill. Now you're climbing a mountain. Mountain sounds exhausting. We can't even figure out the stupid business manager punched the. Yeah, maybe it's like something about filing taxes. Filing taxes. Filing. Filing nails. Filing. Ah, God. No, no, no. I can't do this. I can't do this. You know what? Get your bathing suit. What? You need to learn to float. Come on. Come on. No. What do you think's gonna happen?

[Sam Fragoso]

Come on.

[Paul W. Downs]

I don't like it. Oh, for Pete's sake.

[Lucia Agnello]

I'll hold you.

[Paul W. Downs]

Okay.

[Sam Fragoso]

I'm gonna hold you up.

[Paul W. Downs]

I'm just gonna support you.

[Lucia Agnello]

Lean back.

[Paul W. Downs]

Lean back.

[Sam Fragoso]

Lift.

[Paul W. Downs]

Okay, what about this? My business manager stole over $3 million. If I wanted a man to take that much money from me, I would have married him. Yeah, but we've got so much marriage stuff right before this. How about. How about something about how much that would be today with inflation?

[Sam Fragoso]

Well, how much would it be?

[Paul W. Downs]

I have no idea. My business manager stole over $3 million. You know how much that is when.

[Sam Fragoso]

You adjust for inflation? Neither do I.

[Paul W. Downs]

It's why I had a business manager. Oh, that's good. Oh, I like that.

[Sam Fragoso]

I like that.

[Lucia Agnello]

I gotta write that down. No, no, don't leave me.

[Paul W. Downs]

You got it.

[Sam Fragoso]

That scene feels like the heart of the two of you and the thing that you do and can't stop doing.

[Lucia Agnello]

Sure. Yes.

[Sam Fragoso]

How did you two feel watching that? Lucia, you just gave me a look that's like, why are you asking that?

[Lucia Agnello]

No, I am. Like, I will tell you. I think between Paul and Jen and myself, I am the person who's the most addicted to constantly thinking and constantly. I mean, am I wrong?

[Paul W. Downs]

No.

[Lucia Agnello]

I'm like. It's a little bit like, even if we're like, okay, for one lunch, we're just gonna not talk about the show. We're not gonna talk about work. And then I'm like. By the time we've ordered, I'm like, quick idea. It is a true addiction, you know? But I love it. So. So what?

[Sam Fragoso]

I make the show every week, 52 episodes a year. I hear you.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah. Do you feel the same way?

[Sam Fragoso]

Oh, absolutely.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

That's why I pulled the scene.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah.

[Paul W. Downs]

And you really do work. I mean, you really do. You prepare and you do a lot of work.

[Lucia Agnello]

Unbelievable.

[Paul W. Downs]

I agree. I'm like, dang, this is the most prepared of any host we've ever talked to, ever.

[Lucia Agnello]

Now, can I ask you some questions?

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah, we can do that. In hour three of this episode.

[Lucia Agnello]

Okay, well, I get one.

[Sam Fragoso]

Okay, is.

[Lucia Agnello]

Is it because you just genuinely like getting underneath, like, let's say, the process for people, or is it just like I just like talking to people and seeing what happens? Or do you like the. Is the research part of the joy or like, what's the part of it that really does it for you?

[Sam Fragoso]

Yes. Look, we've met in the past at.

[Paul W. Downs]

A party or two.

[Sam Fragoso]

Or two. Even with the few drinks in me, I'm still curious and interested. That always happens. The thing that I want to do with the show and that you're probably feeling is I really don't want to waste anyone's time. I don't want to waste the listeners time, I don't want to waste your time. And also, we only get to do this the first time once. And there's something that happens when you really sit down with people for the first time that I just kind of feel like I don't want to waste that. And so the only way I know how to do it, unfortunately, like you at lunch saying, I have one idea. Before you can order an appetizer or an entree, I don't know if you do appetizers, is I have to listen to the ninth podcast the two of you have done.

[Paul W. Downs]

Wow.

[Sam Fragoso]

Or I have to read all the press you've done. Because I feel like we only get to do it once like this. And I want to try my best to capture the spirit of the thing that you two have labored over time and time again. So much so that in the middle of season two, speaking of labor, you are about to have a kid and you go to the hospital and in between contractions, you are offering stage direction through a monitor. Tell me how this happened.

[Lucia Agnello]

Okay. So I was directing late into the night and then went to sleep. So we probably wrapped at like 9 or 10 or something. And around 1:30 I did wake up and I was like, I'm having contractions. I was a week early, which was unfortunate because I had only one. We only had one week left of production and I didn't wake Paul up because I knew he needed to sleep because we were going to have a lot ahead of us. We woke up and I said, you need to go. I'm in labor. You need to go. You're acting today, so you need to go and do that. And also you need to direct some of the stuff scenes that I'm supposed to be directing today. And he was like, oh, should we go to the hospital? I'm Like, I'll be fine. So he goes and has his day of work, and I stay home. And they do set up qtake, which is basically me being able to see what's going on live. And I do, at home for the entire day, send texts. Not like, you know, sometimes I'm like, lol, Good one. You know, I wasn't always just giving direction. But I'll tell you what, if anybody's. Anybody who's listening knows labor, you know, you have like 40 seconds or 50 seconds of your fine, and then 10 or 15 seconds of, like, really intense, I guess you'd call it pain, extreme pain. So I've got a lot of. Between those. That pain, I've got a lot of time that I'm looking to distract myself.

[Sam Fragoso]

So some part of you thought, in those 40 seconds, I'm on the clock.

[Lucia Agnello]

Or I wanted to be on the clock because it helped distract me. And also, yeah, you can't stop. And so once, by the time he came home, then we went to the hospital, and by that time we'd wrapped. So I had. Now I was like, well, I'm not working. I might as well get this guy out.

[Sam Fragoso]

Were you surprised that she was doing that in between contractions?

[Paul W. Downs]

No, no, not surprised at all. I was surprised that she wanted me to go to work because I thought, well, I should just be around. But like she said, you know, people are often in labor for a long time before they actually even go to the hospital. And so I did go to work.

[Lucia Agnello]

And my parents happened to be in town. So it was.

[Paul W. Downs]

Her parents were there, which was also, I think, had they not been. I don't know if I could have done it. I was kind of. My mind was at home with her. It wasn't really on set.

[Lucia Agnello]

But you knew that if something happened, I'd be okay.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yes. The fact that her parents were in town was great.

[Sam Fragoso]

Really helped when she said that of the three of you, including you two and Jen, that she is the most, like, compulsive and obsessive about the work.

[Lucia Agnello]

Well, I'm not necessarily the most obsessive and compulsive about the work. I'm just. I can't stop pitching.

[Sam Fragoso]

Okay.

[Lucia Agnello]

I actually think Paul might be more compulsive in some ways.

[Paul W. Downs]

It depends. It depends on what it is.

[Sam Fragoso]

Well, what's the distinction?

[Lucia Agnello]

It's about almost like the stage that it's in. I actually think I'll be most compulsive in the beginning, and then maybe Jen more in the middle and then you more at the end. Does that make sense?

[Sam Fragoso]

Baton passing?

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah, we do have that weird.

[Sam Fragoso]

Can you explain some of that for people?

[Paul W. Downs]

Synergy.

[Sam Fragoso]

What does that actually look like?

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, what it looks like when we're making the show is that there are certain things that, you know, when you are running a show, there are a thousand questions a day about like this prop, this location, this actor, this casting, this, you know, all of the things. And so I actually hats off to people that, that run a show on their own because it is so much to undertake. Now, I will say we not only showrun, but Lucia and I direct the majority of the episodes. So we showrun, we also write the show, we direct the show. I'm in the show. So we do wear a lot of hats. But because of that, it is helpful if there's a clearances question. And Jen is really on that. She's like, I'm going to take care of this and I'm on it. Or there is a marketing and promotions question and I'll take over and I'll respond to that. There's just so many things to respond to at all times that we do almost without asking. It's almost like it's choreographed almost without asking or plotting who's going to respond to what. It just happens. And we do always check in with each other to make sure that we're on the same page, but we have a hive mind about it.

[Lucia Agnello]

We also have just different things once we're actually in the creative process that we all become obsessed with and it can change and it's so random. But like, for example, Jen is very on top of like the captioning that gets put on top of episodes. If you put on captions being word perfect and every letter being like, everything being exactly correct. So it is.

[Paul W. Downs]

I even experienced that when I watch something and I'm like, that's not what they said. You know what I mean? Like, you want it to represent the writing because we work really hard on that writing.

[Lucia Agnello]

Or Paul might become very obsessed with like, what is the perfect song we need to know ahead of time before we shoot it. I want to know the song. So he'll put together, you know, 50s play, like 50 song playlists just for one moment, for one transition, honestly, you know? Or like, I'll be like, this location is absolutely like. I'm like, no, another one, another one. I'm like, we spent four days looking for locations. I'm like, these don't work. We have to find keeping whatever it is. And that's like, those are just Random examples. But, like, we all get obsessed with different things, and it always is constantly changing, but we're all obsessed, all obsessed with every part of it as well. God, we must be nightmares to be around. But also, we're fun.

[Sam Fragoso]

You know?

[Paul W. Downs]

But you know what?

[Sam Fragoso]

Most people at home, they don't have to be around you. They just get the great.

[Paul W. Downs]

They get to watch the show.

[Sam Fragoso]

They just get the great thing.

[Paul W. Downs]

But, you know, you only get the experience of interviewing people for the first time once. You only get the experience of making something and putting out and having people watch it once, you know, and then film is forever. So that's why we're obsessed. Yeah, we want to put out things and make it worth people's time and make them good and like you. Yes. Make it worth it.

[Sam Fragoso]

My last question then is, I hear what you two are saying, and I believe in it, because also, the great thing about this show is it's gotten better each season. I guess the only question I have left is the two of you have made this thing. You have poured all of yourselves into it at the expense of probably some friendships and mental health and all kinds of things. And yet the thing that we keep talking about, the thing that we can't escape, which is that the two of you and the way in which you got here, the pipeline in which you came through, it doesn't really seem like it's possible anymore. The methods of getting to make a show like this, the ways in which one would be able to make a show like this, the steps you'd have to take. That roadmap doesn't seem like it's legible to me. So what did the two of you say to people going, I still want to make art. I still want to do comedy. What do you two say in this moment?

[Paul W. Downs]

Well, I think that the way that we came up and the way that we established ourselves was true of a very specific moment, but it was true 10 minutes before that and 10 minutes before that. And I think it's always changing. And I think if you want to do this and you are dedicated to it, it's just you have to be relentless, and you have to not give up on it, and you have to continue to put things out. You know, I steal this all the time. A friend of ours interned for Conan o', Brien, and he said to that friend, the person who puts out a hundred bad things will get noticed and have an opportunity before the person who puts out one brilliant thing. And you just have to put yourself out there and continue to be Dedicated to it. Completely dedicated to it. And the path has changed, but there are still paths. And people need stories and they need. Need comedy, and they need voices, and they need. You know, we do need that. So it's just like, you know, you have to find that path. And that's the thing that's hard is that people sometimes reach out and say, can we have a coffee? And can you tell me about, like, how to break in? And I'm like, well, it's different now than when I broke in. And yes, there are certain things that will always remain the same. You know, writing a spec and trying to get people to read that and maybe getting people together to. To shoot something that is a short version of that. You know, there are still. Those things still exist. And I think they've existed for decades and decades and decades since the 70s. You know, people wrote a script and then were like, well, let's just shoot a scene and let people see that scene so we can do a proof of concept. Like, I think that stuff is the.

[Lucia Agnello]

Same, but I do. I agree. I think there's still something to an original voice, a new, fresh voice that still is exciting and intoxicating to people. I think that's still a thing, whether it's like making a short or something that says, here's my voice and it's different than everybody else's. And people are like, I do want that new voice. I still think that's there. I think the thing that's harder right now to, like, understand how to do is, like, get practice, because, like, I, off of the Internet, got to make direct. I don't know, like, probably 50. I literally done 15 or so episodes of Broad City. And that experience is insane that I got to do that much. And I mean, I wasn't the biggest budget thing, everybody. I mean, by the end, I was doing five ep, five days an episode. That's like a legit, healthy thing for comedy. You know, to have that much practice is like, I don't know if that exists now for anybody. And I'm like, so lucky. So the practice part is the thing that is, like, you get better from practice. And so I would say, yes, you know, go and make your new thing. Try to be that next voice, but then keep making it and keep figuring out maybe your voice is immediately perfect. Hey, I don't know.

[Paul W. Downs]

It is about practice. That's exactly right. Like, I feel like it's practice and you're putting your work into practice. It's just about practice and doing it and doing it. And doing it and doing it.

[Sam Fragoso]

And the two of you meet in a UCB 101 class, eventually you start writing a little more. Time passes. You figure out a process where the two of you go off and write these scenes and then come back together. When the two of you come back together in 2024, when you're writing now, do you still love it?

[Paul W. Downs]

Yes.

[Sam Fragoso]

And is that the happiest you are in your creative process?

[Lucia Agnello]

Yes.

[Sam Fragoso]

What does that feel like?

[Lucia Agnello]

It's like a combination of. And then we have this with Jen, too, and I think it's a combination of, like, you know, when you're, like, at a party or whatever and you make your favorite people laugh, it's the best high on earth. And I've tried a couple highs, and that's the best high on earth, you know? And so when we are still, like, able to make each other laugh, especially with something that, like, we've gotten practice, and we've gotten to make, you know, the world deeper and get to, like, stretch our imaginations farther, but when we have something that really hits, it's just. Yeah, it's the best feeling on earth, I think.

[Paul W. Downs]

Yeah. Making Lucia laugh is the best feeling in the world, and I now have that also with our son. Making him and her laugh is the best. It just feels. It's the best feeling in the world. And so we do love it. That's why we're addicted to it.

[Lucia Agnello]

And I think we're teaching our son, whether we mean to or not to have this, to be chasing the same high, because now he has a joke, which is, I'm literally gonna cry. He literally goes, I said. I say, okay, I have a secret. And I say, I love you. And he goes, I have a secret roast beef. And that's his joke.

[Paul W. Downs]

He's at roast beef once, and he doesn't eat me. And so we laughed because we were like, what? Roast beef? Where'd you ever hear of roast beef? And so we laughed, and he was like, that makes you laugh. So now he just says roast beef as, like, a punchline. But then he heard the setup. I have a secret. I love you. And he said, I have a secret roast beef. And it was so he understood a joke structure. And we were like, oh, my God.

[Lucia Agnello]

And so now he. All this. He all the time will say, I have a secret roast beef.

[Sam Fragoso]

Why does this make you cry?

[Lucia Agnello]

I don't know. Because he's. He's learning. He's learning this thing we love.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah. Yeah. I do think there's something to it that the thing that both of you came together over is making comedy, making the show, and it is being passed down to the kid.

[Lucia Agnello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Roast beef and all.

[Paul W. Downs]

Roast beef. So funny.

[Sam Fragoso]

And by the way, the joy the two of you feel, it is so felt watching the show. So thank you for making it.

[Paul W. Downs]

Thank you.

[Sam Fragoso]

And thank you for doing this with me.

[Paul W. Downs]

Thanks for having us, for having us.

[Sam Fragoso]

And thank you for watching Paul Lucia. Until next time.

[Paul W. Downs]

Sam.

[Sam Fragoso]

And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode, sharing the program on social media or reviewing it on Spotify, Apple, wherever you do your listening, really, all of this ensures that we can continue making this show each and every Sunday. I want to give a special thanks this week to Lauren Gold and the team at Shelter pr. I also want to thank HBO and our guest today, Lucia in Yellow and Paul Downs. If you don't already watch Hacks, the show streams exclusively on Max. We'll include the link in our show [e-mail] for more talks like this one, I'd recommend Abby Jacobson, Dan Levy and Bob Odenkirk to hear those and more Pushkin podcasts. Listen on Apple, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. You can also follow us on Twitter, Facebook, instagramkeasypod. If you want to purchase one of our mugs, they come in cream or navy. We've also made a vinyl record with writer Fran Leibowitz. You can buy all of that and [e-mail] Shop Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Chaniksa Bravo. Today's Talk was edited by Roman Richard and mixed by Andrew Vastola. It was taped at Spotify studios here in Los Angeles, California. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Krisha Shenoi. Photographs today are by Julius Chu. Graphics, as always, are by Ethan Sineca. I also want to thank our team at Pushkin Industries. Justin Richmond, Kerry Brody, Jacob Smith, Eric Sandler, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Tara Machado, Owen Miller, Sarah Nix, Malcolm Gladwell, Greta Cohen and Jacob Weisberg. I'm sorry. San Fragoso, thank you for listening to another episode of Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next week with actor and comedian Alana Glaser. Until then, stay safe and so long.