Jenny Slate in 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso – "Jenny Slate in 2025"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso
• Host/Author: Lemonada Media
• Description: "Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso" is a weekly series featuring intimate conversations with artists, activists, and politicians. The show emphasizes authentic dialogue where guests "sound like people."
• Episode: Jenny Slate in 2025
• Release Date: April 6, 2025

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Introduction and Background

In the opening minutes of the episode ([00:02]–[03:40]), Sam Fragoso welcomes actress and author Jenny Slate for her fourth appearance on "Talk Easy." Fragoso reflects on Slate's previous visits in 2017, 2020, and 2022, highlighting her evolving career—from starring in films like Landline and Obvious Child, releasing her short story collection Little Weirds (lauded by Vanity Fair as a "great quarantine read"), to launching her passion project, Marcel the Shell with Shoes On. Fragoso describes the show as a "time capsule," with Slate embodying this mission through her multifaceted career and personal growth.

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Promotion of "Dying for Sex"

Slate discusses her latest project, the miniseries "Dying for Sex" ([04:03]–[11:02]). Details include:

• Plot Overview: The series centers on Molly (played by Mary Michelle Williams), who, after a terminal cancer diagnosis, decides to leave her husband of 15 years to pursue as many sexual experiences as possible. Jenny Slate portrays Nikki, Molly's best friend, who becomes her steadfast caretaker.

• Inspiration and Creation: Inspired by a true story, the show is spearheaded by writer-producer Liz Meriwether, known for hits like New Girl and The Dropout. Fragoso praises the show as "both funny and heartbreaking," capturing Meriwether's signature blend of humor and emotional depth.

• Jenny's Role: Slate elaborates on her character, Nikki, describing her as "thoroughly dynamic" with "many heights and depths" ([09:06]–[10:34]). Nikki embodies a balance of soothing support and fiery advocacy, especially in defending Molly against perceived injustices. Slate emphasizes the complexity of Nikki, noting her humor, tenderness, and sensitivity, all crafted through the exceptional script by Meriwether and Kim Rosenstock.

Notable Quote:

"If I can make a small correction... I've not been able to do what I know I can do. Like, really, these, like, sort of long haul, like, full wingspan flights of performance." ([05:21]–[06:07])

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Personal Growth and Career Choices

The conversation delves into Slate's transition in her acting career, focusing on her decision to seek roles that offer her "full wingspan" ([05:25]–[06:49]). She reflects on her tendency to be agreeable and how she consciously chose to wait for roles that align more closely with her artistic aspirations. This shift was pivotal in her acceptance of the role in "Dying for Sex."

Notable Quote:

"This is the performance I want. It's kind of like, this is the house I want. This is the type of thing. This is the person I'd like to fall in love with." ([07:57]–[08:33])

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Exploration of Characters and Acting Approach

Slate provides an in-depth analysis of her character, Nikki, highlighting the balance between confrontation and care. She contrasts her personal demeanor with Nikki's assertiveness, attributing her ability to play a confrontational role to her personal growth in communication and self-awareness.

Key Points:

• Nikki's Complexity: Nikki is both a calm support and a fiery advocate, especially when defending Molly.
• Personal Development: Slate credits learning nonviolent communication with transforming her interpersonal relationships and informing her portrayal of Nikki ([13:08]–[17:44]).
• Acting Philosophy: Emphasizes the importance of layering and depth in performance, striving to bring as much as possible into her character.

Notable Quote:

"You dump your junk and you walk away. You wear all one color on the outside. Swirl with every color on the inside." ([29:34]–[31:11])

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Mental Health and Personal Challenges

Throughout the episode, Slate candidly discusses her mental health struggles and journey toward self-improvement. She touches upon:

• Postpartum Depression: Slate shares her experiences with postpartum depression, detailing how it affected her daily life and her writing ([49:34]–[50:45]).

• Self-Perception and Relationships: She unpacks how she often takes others' moods personally, leading to feelings of inadequacy and fear of abandonment. This introspection is a significant theme in her essay collection, Lifeform ([48:28]–[51:20]).

• Strategies for Coping: Slate mentions seeking medical help and recognizing the need for medication to manage her depression, highlighting her proactive approach to mental health ([49:43]–[50:45]).

Notable Quote:

"I have to stop and it's gonna take a long time, but that's what I'm focused on." ([50:45]–[50:56])

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Recent Work and Future Projects

Slate discusses her writing endeavors, particularly her essay collection Lifeform, and expresses a desire to create a live theater piece exploring themes of birth, death, and ancestral energy through light and puppetry ([45:05]–[47:00]). She reflects on the challenges of writing while balancing motherhood and the creative demands of her projects.

Notable Quote:

"I really want to work on one main thing in myself that I think is the source of when I get really, really depressed." ([47:00]–[48:28])

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Personal Philosophy and Influences

The discussion delves into Slate's personal philosophies and influences, notably the wisdom imparted by her father:

• "Fierce Heart in a Broken World": A mantra encouraged by her father, emphasizing resilience and self-worth in the face of adversity ([43:26]–[43:51]).

• Rejecting Internalized Misogyny: Slate speaks about overcoming societal expectations and internalized misogyny, leading to a more authentic self-expression ([22:30]–[26:22]).

Notable Quote:

"You are not required to bare your teeth at your own image." ([51:11]–[51:20])

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Reflection on Public Controversies

Slate addresses public controversies surrounding her, emphasizing her focus on personal and professional growth over external judgments. She expresses a desire to discuss her work rather than personal disputes, striving for respectful and safe dialogues.

Notable Quote:

"I don't have to talk about everything, and it doesn't make me dishonest." ([38:00]–[39:45])

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Closing Thoughts and Future Engagements

In the final segments ([44:20]–[57:00]), Fragoso and Slate reminisce about their past conversations, noting how Slate has consistently achieved her aspirations—from motherhood to critical acclaim for her projects. Slate shares her excitement about "Dying for Sex" and articulates her gratitude for the sense of belonging and legitimacy she feels in her creative endeavors.

Future Aspirations:

• Creating a live theater piece centered on profound existential themes.
• Continuing to develop her writing and acting careers with an emphasis on authenticity and personal fulfillment.

Final Notable Quote:

"For one of the first times ever, I think I might have, like, thoroughly have a blast." ([54:13]–[55:54])

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Conclusion

Jenny Slate's fourth appearance on "Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso" offers an intimate glimpse into her artistic journey, personal growth, and the interplay between her professional projects and mental health. The conversation underscores her commitment to authentic storytelling, both in her acting roles and her written work, while navigating the complexities of personal relationships and self-acceptance.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• On Seeking Authentic Roles:
  "This is the performance I want. It's kind of like, this is the house I want. This is the type of thing. This is the person I'd like to fall in love with."
  [07:57]–[08:33]

• On Personal Growth Through Communication:
  "You dump your junk and you walk away. You wear all one color on the outside. Swirl with every color on the inside."
  [29:34]–[31:11]

• On Managing Depression:
  "I have to stop and it's gonna take a long time, but that's what I'm focused on."
  [50:45]–[50:56]

• On Self-Worth:
  "You are not required to bare your teeth at your own image."
  [51:11]–[51:20]

• On Enjoying Her Work:
  "For one of the first times ever, I think I might have, like, thoroughly have a blast."
  [54:13]–[55:54]

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Final Note: If you enjoyed this summary and wish to delve deeper into Jenny Slate's thoughts and projects, consider listening to her fourth appearance on "Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso" for a comprehensive understanding of her journey in 2025.

Transcript

[Jenny Slate]

Lemonade.

[Sam Fragoso]

This is Talk Easy.

I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

Today.

Actor and author Jenny Slate, as you'll hear her joking at the top. This marks her fourth appearance on the program. Whether you're new to the show or just want a quick timeline of events, here's how it went. We first spoke back in 2017 on the heels of her starring roles in films like Landline and Obvious Child. At the end of that talk, Jenny made an appointment for us to check back in in three years. We then did just that in the middle of the pandemic in 2020 as her debut short story collection, Little Weirds, had just been released. Vanity Fair called the book one of the great quarantine reads. I tend to agree. Then our third talk, which came in 2022, upon the release of her longtime passion project, Marcel the Shell with Shoes On. She also had recently become a mother at the time. I've always described Talk Easy as a time capsule, and there's no one who's come on this program that better represents that mission statement than Jenny Slate. For Talk number four, we sat in Los Angeles recently where she was promoting her latest project, the miniseries Dying for Sex, in which Jenny co stars with actor Mary Michelle Williams. In the show, Molly, portrayed by Williams, receives a terminal cancer diagnosis and then promptly decides to leave her husband of 15 years to pursue as many sexual experiences as possible. She gets the courage to go on this journey from her best friend Nikki, played by Slate, who stays by her side until the very end. The series is inspired by a true story and and spearheaded by writer producer Liz Meriwether. You may know her work from New Girl and the Dropout, but I think this show Dying for Sex captures what Meriwether does best, at once funny and heartbreaking. You can watch all eight episodes now on Hulu. We also dive into Jenny's second essay collection, Lifeform, which was published by Little, Brown and Company last fall. You'll hear her read some passages from the book the throughout this conversation. Lastly, if you're interested in checking out any of the past three episodes with Jenny, we've linked them in the description. It's not exactly like a TV show where you have to have heard the last conversation to understand this one, but I do think they are in dialogue with each other, all working to capture and interrogate the many different and fascinating sides of actor and author Jenny Slate. And so with that, here she is in 2025. Enjoy.

[Jenny Slate]

Okay, cool. I mean, I didn't even ask how you're doing how are you doing?

[Sam Fragoso]

Are we rolling, Tim?

[Jenny Slate]

Oh, sorry. This is my show, right, Tim? Yeah. Okay, Tim, let's begin.

[Sam Fragoso]

He would happily give it to you. Jenny Slate, welcome back to the show.

[Jenny Slate]

Thanks.

[Sam Fragoso]

You're officially in the Four Timers Club on the program.

[Jenny Slate]

That's cool.

[Sam Fragoso]

There's only, like, a few of you. Noam Chomsky's come on three times.

[Jenny Slate]

Wow.

[Sam Fragoso]

You beat him. W. Kamau Bell has come on four times. My father.

[Jenny Slate]

Wow.

[Sam Fragoso]

And Dr. Ashish Jha has come on five times because of COVID I was.

[Jenny Slate]

Gonna say I'd feel weird if I'd been on more times than a really important person.

[Sam Fragoso]

Hopefully we don't have another pandemic so that you will one day beat that number.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. And also I would just love to not have another pandemic.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah. Yeah. How are you doing?

[Jenny Slate]

I feel very well. I feel okay. I hate to say it, but All Things Considered, like the NPR show. Yeah. Yeah. I wish that I, you know, I felt more like Ari Shapiro, but it's just not happening for me yet. I listen to All Things Considered every day. I feel that I need it, of course. But I feel. I'm surprised to say it because I feel stress about, you know, like, looking out into the world and being in the world. But I feel very well today.

[Sam Fragoso]

What do you feel stressed out about? We started doing these interviews in 2017. We talked again in 2020 and then again in 2022.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

A little over a year ago, you called up your agents and said to them that you only wanna participate in projects that offered you, quote, full Wingspan.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. I mean, if I can make a small correction. Cause I think it's important.

[Sam Fragoso]

Sure. This is from the Hollywood Reporter interview you did.

[Jenny Slate]

Totally. That interview I really enjoyed doing. But one thing that I wish I had clarified, to be honest, during that conversation that I had, was that we were all in that discussion. I think I often am trying to be agreeable. Am like, oh, maybe I should just, you know, do this, do that. I love acting so much. I'll just do it. You know, Like, I just want to do it rather than not do it. And that's not the best position to put oneself in. You know, you can ask for more than that and.

[Sam Fragoso]

As you should.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. And my agents had been really encouraging of me, like, you can wait. You can wait. And it's scary to wait when you know your job is how you make money. You know, like, you have to do that. But I did. And in that conversation, I did say this thing that I think about a Lot, which is like, yeah, I've been lucky enough to make different sizes of, like, flights to spread my wings a bit. But, like, I have not been able to do what I know I can do. Like, really, these, like, sort of long haul, like, full wingspan flights of performance.

[Sam Fragoso]

Are you at home in Massachusetts when you make this call?

[Jenny Slate]

Yes.

[Sam Fragoso]

Is the kid in the other room?

[Jenny Slate]

Same room.

[Sam Fragoso]

Same room.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah, we kind of have, like, one big room mostly.

[Sam Fragoso]

What's the distance between you making that request and you getting the script for Dying for Sex?

[Jenny Slate]

It felt really quick. And when my agents called me with the script, it wasn't like, you got this part. It was like, there's a roll up for grabs, basically. And there are some chemistry reads that are gonna go on next week. And, you know, you're one they want to see. And they told me what the project was and who was in it and who was writing it and, you know, all the people involved. And I felt like that it's a good feeling, but it's like, oh, shit. Okay. Okay. This is what I've been asking for. And it was a big deal for me. And not because of what you might think about actors. Like, oh, this is where I get to, you know, somehow become more, like, culturally relevant or something like that is. I don't. I really don't concern myself a lot with that. It's not a big thing, but that's.

[Sam Fragoso]

Definitely not what I thought.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. Oh, okay. Well. Cause, you know, like, it's my big chance, you know, like that thing. But just to specify that what that means for me is like, okay, I'm finally gonna get to, like, fit my size. If I could. If I could even get this part. Like, this is the performance I want. It's kind of like, this is the house I want. This is the type of thing. This is the. Yeah. This is the person I'd like to fall in love with. Like, that. If I got that. Like. I remember when I met my husband, I literally wrote in my journal when I met him, like, the first day. This is a weird thing to say, but if I could. I think that if I could marry him, I would have the life that I wanna have. Which is a really intense thing to say, but, you know, big shocker there. But that's how I felt about this. Yeah. That, like, if I would just finally get to do the type of acting I want to do. Not that I haven't, but it had felt like a long time.

[Sam Fragoso]

When you say a part that fits my size.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

For people who haven't seen the show yet. Why don't you describe what that looks like to me?

[Jenny Slate]

The way that I read the character of Nikki, who I play on Dying for Sex. She's thoroughly dynamic. She is so many heights and depths without being unwell, without being unhinged. But she's, like, at once 100% soothing to Molly while being able to be completely volcanic in the world. She's trustworthy and also kind of hard to pin down. Like, you don't exactly know what she's gonna do. But when it comes to how she engages in primary relationships, like her relationship with Molly, her best friend played Michelle Williams, you know, that she might be unorthodox, untraditional on how she becomes a caregiver for someone with terminal cancer, but that she's not gonna leave. And, you know, the character's also really, really funny thanks to the incredible script that Liz Meriwether and Kim Rosenstock wrote. And she's really tender, she's sensitive. She's not like a hard ass. There's just so many weird combinations within the character. And the way that I feel as a performer is the more the better. The more the better. Just give me the most that you can give, and I will try to give it back.

[Sam Fragoso]

As many layers as possible.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

And shades.

[Jenny Slate]

Totally. Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

The show is based on a true story about a woman named Molly that Michelle Williams plays who decides to leave her husband after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis. Mainly so that she can start having as much sex as physically possible.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Which is, I think, a noble and good goal to have at the end of it all.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. Yes. But also, that goal isn't just like, I wanna go crazy and, like, just get banged until I'm dead. I mean, I was gonna say that that is a bit of maybe how Molly and Nikki, I could imagine them joking about it that way. But what was so beautiful to me, and that beauty, the beauty really, like, revealed itself and built, especially as we were shooting. Is that the reason why Molly, you know, wants to have this, this time for herself, to have this kind of, like, sexual awakening, smorgasbord kind of thing, is because she's been blocked or she's been holding herself back in terms of her own pleasure and her feelings around power and being able to reveal herself because she was abused as a child, and that abuse has really held her back. So it is about pleasure, and it is also about healing and facing lifelong and completely warranted terrifying, physical, emotional, psychic.

[Sam Fragoso]

Fear in the show. Your character is her best friend and a working actor who Steps into the new role of caretaker and in doing so is like going with her to all the appointments and is especially animated and combative in defense of Molly for a good reason. Was it enjoyable to play someone that confrontational?

[Jenny Slate]

Absolutely.

[Sam Fragoso]

Cause you're not that confrontational.

[Jenny Slate]

No, I'm not. I honestly don't think I am at all. I mean, I think in life with people that I'm close to, if there's an issue, it's really hard for me to let that go.

[Sam Fragoso]

But, yeah, you're vocal, but I don't think Confrontational.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah, that's right. I would say that about myself. I would say I am non defensive at this point. I used to be very defensive, but.

[Sam Fragoso]

When did that stop?

[Jenny Slate]

A few years ago, one of my sisters gave me a book on nonviolent communication. And I read it and was like, oh, oops. And I mean, sometimes, you know, read a book about human behavior and you're like, yeah, I'd love to do that, but, like, I don't even know how to begin. But this one, it was sort of like, I really understood the concept of nonviolent communication. And I saw the lack of it in my life in moments where I had, like, great need or that, like, I was having a problem expressing a need in the way that it could be most, you know, like, actually be fulfilled. And anyway, so I. Yeah, that really helped my development and it really helped my relationships. But for Nikki, she's very confrontational, and she's quick to just anger over what I think Nikki would call ridiculous bullshit. Um, she's not walking around just screaming at people. She's not someone with, like, attitude. She's not looking for a fight. And she's not what I would refer to as a don't disrespect me, bro person. She's not, like, afraid of being disrespected. But when it comes to Molly, when it comes to what she sees as unjust or wasteful, she's like, on full blast. And I just. I loved that. I loved that. And I especially loved it, you know, in service of Michelle and her performance as Molly, it just. It worked on so many different levels for me.

[Sam Fragoso]

So as Molly's caretaker, advocating for her, showing up for her in all ways, I think one of the things your character does is speak truthfully, even if the truth is a little bit painful.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

And so I thought, why don't we watch a scene from early on in the show?

[Jenny Slate]

Oh, okay.

[Sam Fragoso]

This is your character, Nikki, speaking first.

[Jenny Slate]

I don't know how to do this. I'm not like a pro at taking care of people. I'm bad at taking care of people. It's not your fault. Okay. Okay. It's too much to ask. I'm calling Steve. Don't do that. Don't call Steve. No, don't do that. I can do this. Don't go and hide and be safe with Steve. He does not care about what you want or who you are, and that's why you married him. And it was chicken shit then and it's chicken shit now. Yeah, I think that was. There was rewriting, but that was one of the things that I auditioned with. Like, that was one of the scenes in. That was one of the scenes my chemistry read. Yeah. With Michelle and I. Again, like, I really enjoyed that. Even in a stressful, high stakes setting, like a chemistry read for a job you really want. Opposite, like one of your favorite actors.

[Sam Fragoso]

One of the best we got.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. I mean, for real. Even then, I remember just being like, ooh, it's so fun to lay it down like this. And so different than how I am in life in such an interesting revolution, repurposing of the energy that I have in me. But I. I just. I love the care that is in that true statement. And that even though Nikki is forceful, she's not being violent. She's not being. She's not trying to, like, shake Molly by the collar and like, scare her into making a decision. She's just laying out. Yeah, you have the option of Steve, who doesn't care about you, and he doesn't understand what you want. He really doesn't know you. He only knows what he wants you to do to help him see more of himself. And Nikki is saying, I'm the other alternative. I'm imperfect. I'm gonna learn with you. But the subtext, at least for me there is. Those are the elements of being alive, growing and changing. There's a lot of room in imperfection. And she's saying to Molly, like, come with me because I love you. And that's because I want to learn about you and let you change.

[Sam Fragoso]

When you say the, like, the repurposed energy that you put into it, what did you mean by that?

[Jenny Slate]

Well, I think that there's a way that I run as a person.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah.

[Jenny Slate]

I tend to come from gentleness. I tend to be. I tend to try to show people, like, if someone that I love is doing something that I think is unwise, I come with a slow. I would say a lot of intensity, but it's slow and care and look at me. I'm trying to tell you it's really not a good move.

[Sam Fragoso]

You weren't even trying to convince me of anything.

[Jenny Slate]

No. You don't even know what I'm telling you not to do. But you're just like, I don't know, I'm suddenly nervous. But it's. Yeah, my energy, I think, like in life, you know, with my daughter especially, or, you know, it lays heavy. It lays heavy. It can move, but it lays heavy. Whereas Nikki is like, she is fiery. You know, it is a blast. Like, it's bright in your face. And I think we can only work with what we have in terms of what we understand about other people. And, you know, if a director comes in and says, like, I need you to be more aggressive, of course there's like a bazillion ways that'll be interpreted. And I think my job is to have as many versions of that as possible available with the energy that I have in myself for interpretation. But I direct all of my energy at this point in my life toward growth and comfort and making things beautiful and trying to sustain truth while also avoiding unnecessary damage. That's not what Nikki does at all.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah, she's just full head esteem.

[Jenny Slate]

She is. I mean, she changes, but she is a full head esteem trying to be.

[Sam Fragoso]

Truthful without creating unnecessary damage.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Is that the product of your age or being a new mother?

[Jenny Slate]

Both. And also my relationship with myself and my relationship with my husband and with my parents. You know, like, I was really Nicky, like, to my parents.

[Sam Fragoso]

Your father especially. Right.

[Jenny Slate]

I think I actually. I mean, maybe my dad, but I feel like I gave my mom kind of a hard time when I was in my 20s especially, like, kind of like judging her point of view over what I think I would be in her face about negativity and how I assessed her relationship with the world at large.

[Sam Fragoso]

That sounds like a 20 year old.

[Jenny Slate]

I know. I really regret it now. And I have, like a completely different engagement. And I mean, I've always been really, you know, close with my mom, but I think I did used to want to, like, make her admit something.

[Sam Fragoso]

Do you know what that admission sounds like or what you wanted it to be then?

[Jenny Slate]

Mm, no, because I think that what that is is about me, you know, like, not that she would admit something about me, but like the thing that I wanted, I needed my own permission to have. My mom wasn't gonna be like, you're right, Jenny. Like, the world is full of social, non predatory people and we should all be out there and just, like, not be freaked out and negative. Like, I was looking to not be like that, but in a really specific way towards myself.

[Sam Fragoso]

You know, there is this back and forth within dying for sex between Molly and her mother, played by Sissy Spacek.

[Jenny Slate]

Incredible.

[Sam Fragoso]

And the two of them have a dynamic where I think in some ways the character wants the mother, now in her 70s or 80s, to admit something that maybe she can't admit or get to someplace that maybe they cannot get to.

[Jenny Slate]

I mean, what we learn from Molly at the end is that she really believes that the situation that led to the moment of her abuse was her fault. In the scene, Michelle does this beautiful job of saying, like, I saw him put the sedative in my mother's drink, and I didn't say anything. And I liked that we had like, a joke or a little secret. But of course, she was a child. She didn't understand anything that was happening or what would then transpire. And it was hell. Just absolute, you know, terror. And you can't come, you can't. You can't erase that. You can't rewind that. And I think what Molly really wants is like, I just want to be out of this cycle. I want to be in a new space. Stop making me be in this with you. Let's be in something else. And her sexual activities and her sexual pursuits, and that narrative is about her being somewhere else, somewhere that she got, you know, bumped off of that trajectory at a very young age. And also she does get to be somewhere else with her mother at the end.

[Sam Fragoso]

I'm thinking about a moment where you said to yourself, I also want to be in a different dynamic. I also need to turn the page from my understanding. I think it came after you made the film the Sunlit Night. You said, quote, I think the Sunlit Night was like the AD to my bc.

[Jenny Slate]

Uh huh.

[Sam Fragoso]

Making this movie. I stepped off that set and stepped into a completely new world. Yeah, that was back in 2019. What was the AD and BC transformation?

[Jenny Slate]

It's a real, you know, it's a gaggle of different things. But part of that was a real sharpening of my own understanding of how internalized misogyny within myself had directed me to operate in the world, in my career, in my expectations and in my treatment of myself. Like, strange expectations that I set for myself or things that I said, you have to do this. You have to be like this. You have to look like this. Otherwise it will be bad and you'll be, you know, excluded from the things that you want And I think I started to realize the ways in which I was, like, gauging things or talking to myself and how they were connected with my own internalized misogyny. And I just started to unwind from that, like, you know, pull out a spool from myself, and it was really freeing.

[Sam Fragoso]

Or what did you fear you were going to be excluded from? That you wanted to be part of sex?

[Jenny Slate]

The. You know, being an actor, you thought.

[Sam Fragoso]

You'D be excluded from sex?

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah, I mean, like, what I was around was like, you know, it just was the time of Britney Spears and Tara Reid and just, like, really hot girls that all looked a certain way. And that was what I thought. I just was sure that that was what I was supposed to be or look like. And there wasn't anybody telling me not to. I wish that there was. I wish I had been exposed to, you know, other stuff that actually suited my tastes more. And I didn't understand that what I had enjoyed in. In terms of what I thought was beautiful as a. Like, a child was just still totally available to me to emulate, which includes, like, my grandmothers, you know, like, they were always old when I knew them, but I will always say to me, they were the first two people I thought were, like, physically beautiful. And then all of the, like, you know, Madeline Kahn and Carol Burnett, like, Amy Irving was a huge one, you know, like Lena Horne on Sesame street, like Crystal Gale, Bette Midler. There were so many, and none of them were like that kind of mtv, trl, you know, forcing a very young woman, or maybe not. Maybe she, you know, whatever, saying, this is the style that we want and that we want women to look like and be. And I think it really stuck with me and created contortion in me for quite a while.

[Sam Fragoso]

So then what happened in 2019 that created the pivot, the move away from.

[Jenny Slate]

That, I just lost respect for that point of view. It just sort of was like, oh, I don't have to lose everything that I like if I decide to, like, not care about what this nameless, faceless. But I sense it, like, misogynist entity out there seems to want from me in terms of, like, what I say, what I agree to, how I behave. But it also doesn't mean, like, I can't be kind anymore because women are often silenced. Or, you know, like, people don't want to deal with confrontation, whatever. Like, all of a sudden, I just. I just really lost respect for that. And I do think, like, that it was like, the first time that I also had other female friends who were feeling that alongside me. And it just felt really good. Yeah. And it also felt sad, like, oh man, I've wasted a lot of time. But then really excited, like, oh well, I can just be like this now.

[Sam Fragoso]

We'll be right back with author and actor Jenny Slade.

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I want to read from this piece you wrote that I think captures that transformation. Maybe it's a reminder to yourself.

[Jenny Slate]

If you're up for it, you will not be exhausted anymore by the fight with the misogynist in your psyche. You will remember that the misogynist in your head is peddling propaganda that has been written in your own blood, forged in the fires of your own personal hell. You will admit that this has been a very big problem for you. Oh, my goodness. You won't let the idiots and the assholes get past the front gate of your heart. They can yell from the sidewalk. They can yell terrible things because they are shut out and can't stand to be let go. But you will not let them in now. Oh, damn. Yes. Repeat this in your head. There are no odds to beat anymore. Just some real junk to dump. You dump your junk after you dump it. You don't sort it in your mind. You dump your junk and you walk away. You wear all one color on the outside. Swirl with every color on the inside. You walk forward. You keep your head angled up so that you see over the fray. You protect yourself and all the little weirds that make up who you are. We sat there and had the coffee and eggs in the in between world, the often scary but necessary space between old patterns and new behaviors. I didn't know it then, but I'd made it to the Holy Land. Yeah, that's an exact example of that. And in fact, I wrote that during that time. I wrote that like a little over a month after wrapping the sunlit night. And it just came really clear to me. I just kind of like. I don't know. It's weird how a person can get to a breaking point, but where you're just like, I don't wanna deal with assholes anymore and that includes me. And I don't wanna leave, so I have to change.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah, I remember I read the book when it came out. I think we spoke shortly after that. May have been in the pandemic.

[Jenny Slate]

Mm.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah. In 2020.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. And I was pregnant, but I didn't say that I was.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah. And I have to say Like, I returned to it this morning, maybe after reading that Hollywood Reporter profile. I returned to it, and I wondered.

How you were holding those words and that reminder now, especially after the last six months you've had with this. It ends with us controversy.

[Jenny Slate]

So I never, like, read interviews that I give. So I haven't read the Hollywood Reporter piece. But I was interviewed earlier this week because I'm, you know, like, doing a lot of interviews because our show is about to come out, and someone asked me about that, and I was like, oh, oh, I. Ooh, I should have clarified that. Like, you know, whatever. Whatever I said before. But to answer your question, what I wrote there, like, I should have it printed out on my wall.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yeah.

[Jenny Slate]

And the reason why is that, like, it's really great to be able to articulate oneself. I'm a fast mentalizer, and I have realized in myself a particular skill for writing prayers and tiny tomes of encouragement just for myself. And I put them down on paper because I don't want to forget. And like, these to me, not like I'm the God of myself or whatever, but, like, this is as close as I come to praying. Like, it's a clarification expression of my belief system and my hopes for myself. And just like, I think any text that holds a spiritual protocol for you that, like, you, you know, religious people return to their text every day, from what I understand. And I. I love that I don't return to my book every day, but I return to things that remind me of that mindset. But you have to be in a practice with it. And does it still seem important to me? Yes. Do I feel that I've failed myself? Absolutely not. Do I feel that I sometimes need reminding that I'm worth my own high expectations for myself? Yeah. And I think it's good. It's good to remind yourself that you are, in one way or another in line for what you hoped for yourself the last time you were able to think clearly.

[Sam Fragoso]

You won't let the idiots and the assholes get past the front gate of your heart. Yeah, that's a good line.

[Jenny Slate]

Totally.

[Sam Fragoso]

I read that and all I could think of was the Internet.

[Jenny Slate]

Oh, I don't look at the Internet. I mean, it actually makes me feel kind of like. I mean, I look at the Internet like, I buy, you know, towels and stuff. Like, I have, like, a major sweater buying problem, but I'm here to confront you about that. Finally, the sweater intervention. I'm really, really strict about connecting to reality. I check in with myself, with the people in my life with my own belief system and what I know about, like, who I am. And I'm really clear, like, I feel really clear about what my deal is. And it's not like I'm like, yeah, I'm the best, but it's just like, I really certainly care about what the people in my life think about me. You know, if my friends are like, oh, Jenny, she just talked for, like, an hour and she didn't ask anyone any questions. Like, that's devastating. I don't want to be that. You know, like, if I don't call my sister back, I feel bad about it. Like, I, you know, whatever. But in terms of, like, if you're talking about, like, social media, I just decided, like, years ago that it wouldn't be good for me anymore to look into what that fray was, because you can really get pulled into being frightened by condemnation or being defined in a way that, like, you really don't identify with. And I've worked really hard on my ongoing process of self understanding and self estimation, and I. There's just no time to lose. Like, one day I'll be dead. This is my one time for being alive. I'm just, like, not gonna fuck it up by telling myself that it's my duty to look into an online space created by people who wanted us to be addicted to it and hurt each other. And there is a ton of great stuff on the Internet, you know, like, there would be no Marcel the Shell if there was no Internet. And I am so grateful. But, well, the other thing I'll say is that, like, the stakes are much higher for me because I have Ida in the same way that it's like, what do you mean? I can't sneak out to the porch and smoke a cigarette. She's going to smell it. I haven't done that. I'm just saying, like, you know, what do you mean? I can't be stoned. I can't, you know, I'm not gonna be drunk. Like, I can't be messed up. I have to be healthy for her and all. Like, obviously for myself. But it's, like, even easier to understand that and be that. It's not easy to be, like, emotionally healthy. Everyone has to work on it. But you know what I mean.

[Sam Fragoso]

I do. Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. I don't want to go around being, like, scared of people, you know? Like, I feel like everything's. Unless, like, you are looking at me right now and there's something I don't know. I mean, and I Feel paranoid all the time, of course, but it's better to just not go in that room, man.

[Sam Fragoso]

No, there is not, like, some cascading amount of messages. Okay, no, there's not. There's not. But there is no way anyone listens to this and doesn't, on one level, go, how is she doing? Given this very public controversy that has happened, a controversy that is. That is much too public for anyone's good, I think no one should care about other people's business as much.

[Jenny Slate]

I mean, the way that I think about, like, my life or even coming here to date for this podcast, it's like, I feel that I've done my best work yet. I've also, like, put out a book this year, and all of that is, like, me expressing, and it's my work. It's like, that's what I'm talking about. And it's like, it feels really weird to me. I understand why. Like, I understand the question. I understand that there's interest. But for me coming here, I'm like, I'm looking toward the light. I'm looking toward the fresh air. I'm like, oh, my God, this project is about to come out. I got chosen to act with Michelle Williams. Like, that is how I feel. Why would I ever talk about anything else except for what I myself am active in, am responsible for, am involved in, have my name on? I feel this way so strongly, and because I wanted this work so badly, part of the full Wingspan thing is me being like, I understand what you're saying. I'm not getting off my flight pattern. I need to be able to talk about what I want to talk about and not be responsible for a cultural discussion that every now and then bellows my name? And, you know, of course, there are things that I want to say in my private life, but, like, one of the things that I've learned and I can, you know, it's still, like, I'm, like, still wobbly at it, is like, I don't have to talk about everything, and it doesn't make me dishonest. And I want to be in a discussion that is, like, respectful and safe. That's why I don't, like, really participate in social media other than posting when I have an article come out about my show because I'm just unsure of the environment. It's kind of like the same as, where would you bring your kid, you know, would you bring them to, like, a field where, like, you know, it's hunting season? Or would you bring them to Disneyland where there are Rides that are appropriate for them. You know, like, that's the thing.

[Sam Fragoso]

I would hope, after how long you've known me, that you would bring your kid to Talk Easy.

[Jenny Slate]

I think that my daughter would love Talk easy. Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

I know why you came today.

[Jenny Slate]

I know. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm surprised. I'm surprised.

[Sam Fragoso]

You're surprised at what?

[Jenny Slate]

I guess. Well, it's interesting. Cause, like, you and I have had this thing where, like, I'm lucky enough that I have good enough work come out that, like, I get to come and be on your show every few years.

[Sam Fragoso]

Yes.

[Jenny Slate]

You've also, like, taken in my work and read my work and seen my specials.

[Sam Fragoso]

All of it so obsessive bookmarking and.

[Jenny Slate]

Yes, yes, totally. I'm actually, like, surprised that you wouldn't know what my response would be. And I'm not uncomfortable with it at all. But I know that when I leave here, I'll feel, like, glad that I talked about this work, because, you know what? Can I just say one other thing? Sorry. One thing that I'll say is, like, I know what it feels like to continually have to be asked something in interviews that has nothing to do with your current work. It's heartbreaking because I don't work that frequently. But also, every time I work, it's like me saying I'm alive, and I'm even more alive than ever. And it's like, it's my job to make sure that I talk about my current self, my work, in the right context.

[Sam Fragoso]

The thing we're talking at and around is not dissimilar to something I think you've done throughout your work and private and public life throughout. Like in 2020 when there were protests breaking out in Black Lives Matter. We did episodes on the show, and you were one of the first people in Hollywood that took our episode and promoted it on social media.

[Jenny Slate]

Was that true?

[Sam Fragoso]

Yes, it was a Jelani Cobb episode. Talking about.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, all kinds of things.

[Sam Fragoso]

And you were advocating for that before, like, everyone started advocating. I'm thinking about Obvious Child talking about choice, that these two texts are feminist texts that have politics embedded and running through them.

[Jenny Slate]

I agree.

[Sam Fragoso]

Look, you've always been entertaining in the publicity way.

[Jenny Slate]

Totally. I mean, yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

But you've always been political and advocating in the way that you are.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah, I. You know, gosh, yeah. When I was driving here today, I called my dad because he said something to me, like, a couple weeks ago, and it really affected me. And I couldn't remember the exact wording, but I, you know, I was. Every day, I, like, listen to up first from npr, and I listen to All Things Considered at night. And then, you know, I call my dad in the morning. I'm like, what's going to happen? And I called him today to ask him, like, can you repeat it for me so I can remember it when I'm going to bed tonight when I'm talking about what's important to me? And I asked him, and my dad repeated it for me. He said, jen, you can either be brokenhearted in a fierce world, or you can have a fierce heart in a broken world. And he had said to me, you know, that's what I want to see in people's work. My dad runs a really wonderful literary site, and they have incredible literary criticism. And he's a poet himself. He's a poet, a writer, he's a literary critic, and he's brilliant and, you know, one of a kind. No one else in the universe, like my dad, Ron Slate, one of the best.

[Sam Fragoso]

So a fierce heart in a broken world is what you're leaning towards in this moment?

[Jenny Slate]

Always. I think it's always been my way, but I, you know, until my dad said that, I, I don't think I, I saw it that way. Yeah, he, he, he used the adjective, like, you have to have a stout heart, you know, And I just, like, loved that. I love that.

[Sam Fragoso]

After one more quick break, the end of my conversation with Jennifer.

This is your fourth time on the program, like I said.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

And it's amazing looking back on the episodes, at the end of each of them, I ask you about what you want in the future. And this is pretty uncanny, because in our 2017 episode, Whoa, I Wonder what I said.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. Okay.

[Sam Fragoso]

You talked about wanting to be a mother. You became a mother.

[Jenny Slate]

Whoa.

[Sam Fragoso]

In 2020, you wanted to finish Marcel the Shell. It got nominated for an Oscar. In 2022, you wanted to finish your second book of essays, which turned into Lifeform, published last fall.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

So if we're continuing this trend of treating Talk Easy, and by extension, me, as a genie, what do we think?

[Jenny Slate]

It's interesting. I'm at a real inflection point right now. I mean, I guess I always am. I guess I'm always saying that, but I guess why wouldn't you want that? Why wouldn't you want that? I think there are some things that are really specific that I want to happen. For me, I really want to create and perform a live theater piece, and I've never done that before, like, not stand up, but Like, a written theatrical piece using, like, light and puppets as a way to talk about birth and death and sort of like ancestral energy, inheritance. That's what I want. I, like, think about that a lot. I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's something. There's something. Something there.

[Sam Fragoso]

There's definitely something there.

[Jenny Slate]

There's something there. And it's really hard. It's like hearing you say, like, oh, I said I wanted to finish my second book of essays. Like, it was really, really, really, really hard to write life form. It was really, really hard. To the point where I don't think that I'm done with it. I think that, like, what I touched on is so important to me, that the theater piece is like, the second request from what that instinct is what.

[Sam Fragoso]

Made it so difficult.

[Jenny Slate]

I just couldn't think. I was so tired. My daughter was two and a half when I was starting to write it. I was really tired. It was sort of like, you know, trying to catch water in your hand. It just kept going through. I just couldn't get it. And it meant so much to me. And it just was hard. It was, like, hard to get it out. And then I could. And then I did get it out, but it was harder. It was like, a lot harder. And I love Lifeform. I love it. I think it is exactly what I wanted it to be. I don't have any regrets about it, honestly. But I do want to do a theater piece.

[Sam Fragoso]

And then it's funny you say that, because I think in Seasoned Professional, your.

[Jenny Slate]

Standup special, I say that I hate plays. That's, like, the first thing I say. I know, I know. Cause I do. Like, I did. I do. I did. But then I say, that's the complaint of an actress who has never been asked to be in a play, which is not. I mean, I've been in plays, but, like, not since, you know, college. But it was a good bit. Yeah, but this is not. I mean, like, it's also true. It's very hard for me to sit still a, you know, major adhd. I just, like, can't do it.

[Sam Fragoso]

Well, thank you for doing this.

[Jenny Slate]

Well, this is different because I'm talking so much.

[Sam Fragoso]

Okay.

[Jenny Slate]

You know, so it's like, I like this a lot, but, I mean, I want a lot of the things to just keep going. I want to keep being in love with my husband. I want to keep growing closer and closer and closer and more known and knowing more to and about my daughter. But I also, for me, I really want to work on one main thing in myself that I think is the source of when I get really, really depressed. And when like my sort of like instant sadness, loneliness that kind of happens to me on a daily basis. It's like a sinkhole. I claw my way out of it pretty easily. But it really hurts is like I really, really need to work on how personally I take everything in my personal life. I'm realizing it's like kind of a problem.

[Sam Fragoso]

How do you mean?

[Jenny Slate]

Well, like, if somebody that I'm close to is in a bad mood, I just think like, it's cause I did that to them. It's like it rolls downhill really quickly. It's really bad. It's like, oh, this person's in a bad mood. It's because they don't have enough respect for me to be kind to me. They haven't even been able to remind themselves that I'm here and that I deserve like a smile or kindness because I'm not important to them and they don't care about me. And I've fallen short. And if I've fallen short, that means that I've disappointed them and they're gonna leave me and it's just a matter of time. And um, I gotta, you know, like, I'm gonna be alone. Like I've failed. I'm, I'm, I'm. I've lost love. I'm starving. I'm starving. And that's how it feels like almost every day. It's not, doesn't last a long time.

[Sam Fragoso]

But like, how long does it last?

[Jenny Slate]

An hour. And I do other things during that time. And I just am realizing, like, this is major. Like this is a really big deal. This is a really big deal that you do this every day. And it's connected to all the other ways that I've tried to work on myself.

[Sam Fragoso]

Does it usually happen at three in the afternoon?

[Jenny Slate]

Well, there is a piece in my new book called the Purple Dark Hole, which is, you know, letters to the Doctor. Purple dark Hole, which is. It's sort of about postpartum depression.

[Sam Fragoso]

But 3, 22.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah, I mean, afternoon is hard. I think I'm managing my experience with depression much better now. And like, part of that is just being like, deal with it, like ask a doctor. You know, I think it's hard to understand, like, am I, am I clinic? Am I like sort of chemically depressed? Or is the world really scary? Or am I just really tired? Or am I, you know, whatever. But now I understand, like, oh, I need a little bit of like medication for depression. And it makes all the difference. But that doesn't have anything to do with my instinct to, oh, I'll just take this on. Like, I guess it's the one thing I should do, is take everything personally. It's really starting to wear me out. And I'm starting to realize that it's not me. It's in me, but it's not me. And I can stop and it's gonna take a long time, but that's what I'm focused on. And I hope that I can do it.

[Sam Fragoso]

I wish that for you, too.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. Yeah. So does everyone else in my fucking life. One thing that I wrote a lot about in life form is, like, my understanding and what I wish I had told myself or understood as a younger person. And what I would tell to any younger person or any person is you are not required to bare your teeth at your own image.

[Sam Fragoso]

That's a line in the book.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah, it's in the book. And I say it all the time now to myself and people I care about.

[Sam Fragoso]

I guess that includes every talk. Easy listener.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[Sam Fragoso]

So we're closing the loop?

[Jenny Slate]

Well, the eclipses are doing something, you know, but hopefully we're not closing the loop.

[Sam Fragoso]

It's closing.

[Jenny Slate]

I mean, if I don't get to come back here, I hate to say, it might mean I'm dead.

[Sam Fragoso]

You know? You are welcome back anytime.

[Jenny Slate]

Yes, but I am mortal. I'm just saying.

[Sam Fragoso]

Famously. Yeah. My last question for us. I think of your books as offerings of some kind. Sometimes they read like prayers, sometimes they read like reminders to self.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

And in Dying for Sex, you play this working actor that is in a Shakespeare play.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

She is then, because of her commitments to caretaking, fired from that play.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

But later in the story, Shakespeare works its way back into the show.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

And I thought we could end today's episode with a passage from Shakespeare's the Tempest.

[Jenny Slate]

Cool, man. Okay. I wish I brought my glasses. Our revels now are ended. These our actors, as I foretold you, were all spirits and are melted into air, into thin air. And like the baseless fabric of this vision, the cloud capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, the solemn temples, the great globe itself, yea, all which it inherit shall dissolve and like this insubstantial pageant faded, leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a sleep. He was good. He was good. He was good. You know, Trump wants to get cats back in the, you know, Kennedy Center. He's requested Cats, but this is good, too.

[Sam Fragoso]

I'm so glad Trump has really only come up in the context of Cats. Is this where you want to end it?

[Jenny Slate]

Nope, I don't think so. I don't think so.

[Sam Fragoso]

That passage is unbelievable.

[Jenny Slate]

It really is so beautiful. It's really nice when you do something that you feel like maybe this is an offering for other people. And the reason why I think that is because even though I'm one of the people, making exists as an offering.

[Sam Fragoso]

For me on the other side of it. I know you cut your hair off.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah, I did.

[Sam Fragoso]

If we're thinking about the show as an offering, what did it give you on the other side of all this?

[Jenny Slate]

Oh, man. I don't even know where to start. There was a perpetual, really active sense of, pay attention, pay attention. Like, oh, my God, I can't believe this is what I get to do. Big, big gratitude. But that didn't come with imposter syndrome, as it often does for me and for many when, like, something really awesome happens. I felt comfortably, peacefully at home on this set, even though while understanding that I believed our work and the people around me, Michelle and Liz and Kim and our whole cast, Shannon, the director, like, everyone's extraordinary, and I am here because I'm part of this group, and that feeling of belonging is really, really precious to me. And I've continued to feel a sense of belonging in my life and a sense of legitimacy that I've been building on for a few years anyway, but that sort of expanded that for me. Or. But then I guess, like, I've arrived at a place where I'm. I'm happy about my work, and I'm like, wow. For one of the first times ever, I think I might. I think I might have, like, thoroughly have a blast. Sort of like, beginning to end, like, starting getting the script to going to the premiere. And I'm really focused on making sure that I do have a really, really beautiful time this week and that my husband knows how much I appreciate him being there with me and that, like, it's just, like, fun. Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

Well, I hope having this conversation has been part of that arrival.

[Jenny Slate]

Of course. Yeah.

[Sam Fragoso]

And I so congratulate you on making this show. I think it's really good, and I hope you'll come back for a fifth time.

[Jenny Slate]

Yeah, I will. You know, there's no reason that I won't unless I'm dead. I'm so sorry.

[Sam Fragoso]

I was trying to end it on something nice.

[Jenny Slate]

Totally, totally. God, I wish I knew any songs from Cats.

[Sam Fragoso]

Jenny Slate, thank you.

[Jenny Slate]

As always, thanks for having SA.

[Sam Fragoso]

And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode with Jenny Slate, be sure to share it with a friend on social media over email. I don't know. However you're communicating these days, all of it helps us continue making this show each and every Sunday. I want to give a special thanks this week to the teams at Lead Company and FX and of course, my guest Jenny Slate. Her excellent movie new series, Dying for Sex is now available to watch via FX on Hulu. For more talks, I'd recommend my Conversations with Michelle Williams, Kiwi Kwan and Julia Louis Dreyfus. To hear those and more Lemonada Podcasts, listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. You can also subscribe to Lemonada Premium. For bonus content, just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemononapremium.com Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janicza Bravo. Today's Talk was edited by Lindsay Ellis and mixed by Andrew Vastola. It was taped out of York Recording in Los Angeles, California. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Krisha Shenoi. Photographs today are by Emily Ferretti. Additional research comes from Pierce Harvey. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada Media, and I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to another episode of Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next Sunday with, well, one of my favorite living writers. Until then, stay safe and so long, Sa.