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Talk Shop with Ariel Okin: A Fenimore Lane Production
Building on Tradition: A Conversation with Bill Curtis & Russell Windham
00:51:04
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- [00:00]
A
Before I welcome today's guest, I wanted to take a moment to thank this season's presenting sponsor, Shop My. Shop My is a platform that connects designers, tastemakers and creators with shoppers who trust their style and recommendations. With Shopmy, you can discover and shop the pieces experts actually use and love in their own homes, all in one beautifully curated place. This season, we're bringing ShopMay directly into the conversation. Each guest will share why they love the platform and the thought behind the products they've chosen for their own Shop My storefronts. I personally love using my Shop My account and you can check out my own storefront in the show notes. So let's dive right in.
- [00:38]
B
I think one of the reasons that after 30 years we still enjoy this and thrive in it is that we were so naive. We were idealistic. To be an architect and not be idealistic, it has to be the worst job in the world. I mean, it would be awful. I would. There's no chance I would do it.
- [01:00]
A
Welcome to Talkshop. I'm Arielle Okun, a New York based interior designer, writer and editor looking to bring a little bit of magic into our homes every day. After years as a writer and editor in the interiors world, I founded my own editorial site, Fenimore Lane, in 2020 and the Talk Shop interview series was born. Each week I delve into the personal experiences of the top interior designers and tastemakers around the globe. Welcome back to a brand new season of Talk Shop with me, Arielle Okun. I'm so excited to kick things off with not one, but two incredible guests. Bill Curtis and Russell Windham, founding principals of the award winning Houston based firm Curtis and Windom Architects. For more than three decades, Bill and Russell have created some of the most admired homes and gardens in the country. Works that beautifully bridge classical architecture with the way we live today. Their firm is built on a shared belief in craftsmanship, proportion and a deep respect for history, while always making space for warmth, comfort and livability. Their work has been recognized with numerous awards and has been published widely in Architectural Digest, Veranda and Elle Decor. Most recently documented beautifully in their new book with Rizzoli, Building on Tradition, a stunning follow up to their first monograph, A Vision of Place. The book offers an intimate look at their evolution as architects and the projects, principles and philosophy that continue to shape their timeless work. So please join me as I welcome Bill and Russell to the podcast. Bill and Russell, thank you so much for coming on Talkshop. I am so happy to have you here.
- [02:34]
B
Well, thank you. It's nice to join you.
- [02:36]
C
Yeah, we're grateful for the opportunity.
- [02:38]
A
Well, to kick off the conversation, we ask everyone who comes on. Can each of you describe your styles in three words or less?
- [02:47]
B
Okay. Bill, you want to go first?
- [02:49]
C
Sure. Bill Curtis would probably think about using the word appropriate. Another word might be mannered. And disciplined would be my three words.
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A
Said like a true architect.
- [03:02]
B
When I. This is Russell Windham. When I saw this question, and I thought that you were going to be thinking more about interior design, so I would call my taste Old Lady English.
- [03:15]
A
Oh, I love that. That's so good. I feel like those both of your answers combine to kind of give your. Your general style into one, which I love also.
- [03:28]
C
Well, it also shows you the distance between our personalities. Yeah.
- [03:33]
A
But that's why I feel like all partnerships work really well and yours work so well because of that. You kind of complement each other on. On both. Both ends of the spectrum.
- [03:43]
C
We agree.
- [03:44]
A
So for those listening, tell us a little bit about yourselves and where you are at this point in your careers right now.
- [03:51]
C
So we've been incredibly, incredibly fortunate. And the threshold moment for this particular event today is because we've just published a new book. But we've also gotten to a point, I think, in our careers where the opportunities that come to us, you begin to see the opportunities differently than you did a long time ago, that you can actually know that you're going to create something that is wherever you want to take it. And when you can do that and you eschew having to kind of worry about other things, you really can go a lot further with the solutions. And so I feel really happy that we're in that position where we're got enough wisdom, enough gray hair perhaps, that we can push things where we would like them to go for our clients.
- [04:26]
B
You know, I would agree with that. I would also add on to it. What's really interesting being in business for so long is we just have a great office of really passionate, smart people that you sort of look at and you see yourself 20 years ago. And so, you know, that youthful exuberance to see it in the office just allows you to do more and think outside the box because in a way, it gives us time to be, you know, thinking about what's next, what are you interested in, and in a way, be a creative force within the office, which is a nice place that we've grown into.
- [05:12]
A
Yeah. That really ties into the title of your book. Right. The. So for those listening, the title of their book which just came out is called Building on Tradition. And I think what you guys have just outlined is really kind of speaks to that. Right? Like, you have gotten to this place where you are building on the foundation that you built of this incredible career and firm that the two of you have built together. So that's really amazing. And before we dive into how you two met and founded the firm, which I really want to hear about, let's learn a little bit about both of you and, and how architecture and design came into each of your lives.
- [05:50]
C
Well, feel like I really didn't have any choice. I was. My father built a building when I was six years old, and, and he took me to the construction site and he took me to the architect's offices, and I was fascinated by both. And I honestly can't remember ever thinking about any other path in my life than being an architect.
- [06:06]
A
Wow. Isn't it amazing how something can strike you at such a young age? And you, you just. I really think it's innate in people, and if you listen to your gut instinct, it will lead you to where you need to go.
- [06:21]
C
Well, the, the one time I thought, well, maybe I'm not doing the right thing, you have these little moments of crisis and thought, maybe this isn't the right thing. And I spent about five minutes trying to think about what the alternative would be and realized, no, I'm on the right path.
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A
No, this is what I'm doing.
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C
Never again thought about it.
- [06:37]
A
That's amazing. And Russell, what about you? How did you find yourself drawn to architecture?
- [06:41]
B
Well, it sort of seems like the story of my life. I grew up in a small, small town. I've never lost this argument. I came from a town of 65 people.
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A
Oh, my God.
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B
Basically grew up on a farm with animals, those sort of things. And we just were makers, you know, if you needed this or that, you figured out how to make it or, you know, that sort of thing. And so I was going off to college, and my brother was just finishing college, and he said, you know, asked me, what are you going to study? And I said, well, you know, I don't know. I guess I'll figure it out. And he said, no, no, you should definitely go to architecture school. And I said, well, I'll give that a try and see how it goes. And fortunately, he was right. And I loved it. Except that I didn't believe all the stuff they were trying to teach me, but that's. That's kind of my nature. But, yeah, he was. I. I've never really looked back.
- [07:40]
A
That's amazing. And you started the firm in 1992. So can you take us back to. I mean that's over 30 years ago. Like how did your paths first cross and how did you decide to build a practice together?
- [07:53]
C
So 30 plus years ago, friends of mine from Houston had, I was living in Washington D.C. practicing with Hartman Cox and friends would come and visit and they were close friends and they finally said, you know, Bill, why aren't you doing this for yourself? You've, I must have been innately kind of selling that I was capable of doing this. And they, they got the message and began to talk, talk to me about it. And so eventually I started doing some research and came to Houston and decided to move here. And so that's, that's how I got here was just through the cajoling of old friends.
- [08:25]
B
Being from a small farming place, I, every year we went to the Houston Livestock show and Rodeo where we participated. And I just liked Houston, you know, being from a place with of 65 people, any city just. I couldn't sleep when I would go to a city, I bet, and just loved it. And I had been working in England and just couldn't get a long term work visa. And so was faced with just, you know, what do you do now? And so Houston I always liked and just moved on a whim and you know, and then Bill and I met through a mutual friend. And you know, I think the thing that really attracted us to one another, I, you know, Bill may have a different story, but I think we're consistent on this was he had been in firms and cities and was passionate about making architecture. That's where I came from. You know, it's just you wanted to build great things. So we met and fed off of one another and then just started trying to meet people. You know, one thing clicked and we got a project and the time in Houston was perfect. And you know, it really is, you know, sort of like pinch me. We had an idea and we worked real hard and we hit Houston at just the right time. And things clicked. And you know, here we are 30 some odd years later. It's kind of hard to.
- [09:56]
C
The other thing about being in Houston, Houston is a, it's a town where people drill holes in the ground and kind of hope they hit oil. So risk taking calculated risks as scientists come to us. But back in the day it was wildcatting. And so we had been working in great firms who were expected to produce things that were extraordinarily of extraordinary high expectation urbanistically or in any other way that they were working. That's the context in which we learned. It was rigorous, it was high expectation, high poker, high stakes poker, kind of. So we came to Houston. It was at the end of an oil bust and so most of the architects had been obliged to leave town. Frankly, it was a long bust of about eight years or so. And there really wasn't a lot of people standing when we got here. And we naively picked Houston because we thought it would give us a chance. But. And it did. But thing was is that second generation wealth had been in my mind, had been on the sideline for a while through this oil bus, was ready to go, they were in their 50s, ready to build things. And, and we, we showed up at the same time and we had only pitched great ideas, had only been around making great ideas through Simpson or Harmon Cox. And when we got here, we just threw ideas out on the table that were big. We did, we didn't know to be modest or, you know, be a little bit reserved or we might be taking a risk by pitching something that was really expensive to build or whatever. And every time we pitched when the client went, that's a great idea, let's build it. And so we just started down that platform and have never left it. It's just good ideas are good ideas and people want them. That's what we found in Houston. People took advantage of.
- [11:28]
A
And that's a really good advice for young designers and architects listening. Like when you have big ideas, sometimes there's a benefit to. When you're just starting, you throw out an idea like that because you're not afraid or you haven't thought to yourself, oh well, maybe I shouldn't, you know, X, Y, Z. And keeping that with you throughout the course has been hugely helpful to you, both of you.
- [11:51]
C
It sounds, I'd like to think that it was courageous, but I think it was more naive that we just. That's just all we knew how to do and so we did it.
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A
That's amazing.
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B
But you know, architecture is like that. I think one of the reasons that after 30 years we still enjoy this and thrive in it is that we were so naive. We were idealistic.
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A
Right.
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B
I think to be an architect and not be idealistic, it has to be the worst job in the world. I mean, it would be awful. I would, there's no chance I would.
- [12:27]
A
Do it because it's so black and white. I think the idealism is what makes it romantic. And what gives you sort of the story behind the homes that you're building too.
- [12:36]
B
Exactly. You Know, for us, it all comes from the client and our trying to interpret what they want. Yeah, but if you're not in a position where you can add value to someone else's idea, that's the business of architecture. And I think, unfortunately, the world doesn't really work that way too many times anymore, but it has certainly worked well for us. And like Bill said, we hit Houston, there was a great traditional architect, John Staub, when they were just making our great neighborhoods, and people revere his work. And with the turn down, there really hadn't been a good traditional architect in Houston since John Stobb. So I think people saw that, you know, wow, these guys sort of know this traditional classical stuff, and we haven't seen that. And it was just a confluence of all these perfect timing.
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A
Were there any early projects that felt like turning points, like moments where you sort of were like, okay, we're. We're onto something here?
- [13:43]
B
There were a number of them. It, you know, it's. It's easy to look at one or two that were definite milestones, but I sort of thought about this. Bill may feel differently, but just getting one of the first projects, you know, when you're two guys working, it's not like you're starting a firm. You're just trying to have your next meal, you know, and so there were no grand, you know, here's how we're going to build a firm. It was just we wanted to stay alive. And so, you know, being scrappy and getting those first couple of projects, you, you know, you get your first one or two, and you draw on them, and then they don't work out. But then we got our first two buildings started in the ground, and they were good ones, and that's what got people's attention. And then we had to ramp up quickly thereafter. And, you know, that was a whole different game.
- [14:42]
A
That's its own other set of challenges.
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B
Exactly. You know, first how do you scratch out a meal? Then how do you hire some people? And, you know, it was like drinking from a fire hydrant.
- [14:56]
C
I think that one of the other things that happened was I can think of three sort of seminal projects that. That pushed us into another orbit of being beyond two guys and really transformed us into a firm. Part of that was not only the architects that we were allowed to create, but who we were working with. And we got a project in Peconic Bay on. On an island, and we were working with David Easton. And in Houston, we were working on an 18th century French house.
- [15:21]
A
Oh, wow.
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C
Based on La Lanterne's new house, which is one of the original buildings on Versailles. But a man named Laurent Bourgois was a decorator who'd worked for Henri Samuel and just exposure to him and then Bunny Williams on another project. And all these things were going on at the same time. And we'd never worked with a decorator. You know, we. This was just. This was just us.
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A
Oh my God. Well, what an iconic immersion with those three.
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C
Well, it was iconic, but the other thing was the first project that we got that we couldn't figure out how it came to us was pretty cathartic, like it wasn't through a connection or something. So, yeah, I think we kind of, we kind of knew we were onto something when that started to happen.
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A
I mean, what do they say? Things come in threes, right?
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C
Yeah, true.
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A
And also I think when you start to hit that momentum, it is like drinking out of a fire hose and you're sort of like, oh, okay, now it's not like when is the next project coming? But, you know, how are we going to staff the firm to be able to manage, you know, multiple really high end projects at once? And you guys have been working together now for over three decades, which is just absolutely remarkable. How do your strengths complement each other in the creative process?
- [16:31]
B
We started when we were five, so we're only 35.
- [16:35]
C
That's a good answer right there. I think exactly.
- [16:39]
B
What's interesting is I think this worked well for Bill and I. We are very compatible. You know, unfortunately, right now we, we look like two old white guys. We're very similar, but we really see things very differently. And I think the best way to describe that is the way we started. Bill would work on the plans and I worked on the elevations, which is not typically the way firms work, I don't think.
- [17:08]
C
And so, yeah, can I interject that we've always shared an office, so this was happening literally side by side. So it wasn't like we were formally doing one of the things.
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A
I love that you share an office. That's amazing.
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C
Still do.
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B
We still do. Yeah.
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A
That's incredible. You guys must finish each other's sentences all the time almost.
- [17:28]
B
I like to finish bills just to make sure they're right.
- [17:34]
C
I'm so glad for Russell's council. Always. It's just always interesting.
- [17:38]
A
It's so special. I love when we get the chance to have people on the show that are, that have been in a long term work partnership like this. We had the Nikki Kehoe team on last season and I just Find it so interesting how you guys complement each other in the creative process and how what that workflow looks like. What's one thing you both, you each admire the most about each other and your, your design sensibilities?
- [18:05]
C
Well, I sort of think of myself a little bit like maybe I'm the tree and Russell's a limb a little bit and actually he's out on the limb kind of sawing it off behind him. I mean, he's a risk taker and he's confident and, and I like to be a balance to that.
- [18:23]
B
I had not heard Bill describe it that way, but I actually sort of agree with that. I will say this too. Bill and my wife are so similar. They are the steady, the steady part of my life and it allows me to sort of do other things. And I like to remind both of them that I really do consider Bill my first wife.
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A
Yeah, that's so good.
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C
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
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A
I mean, 30 years we'll do that. 30 years of working together is like, you're like family. It's a really special thing.
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B
That's a good way to describe it because, I mean, Bill and I were single when we started. We got married, I think within a year of one another. Our kids are the same age, they went to the same school. And man, when you're, when you have a business partner, you're working like a dog and you're at similar places in.
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A
Life, it makes a huge difference.
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B
It does. Understanding all the things that the other person is going through is huge.
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C
One other thing I admire Russell, and probably vice versa, is that, you know, when you're this kind of two man partnership and you've got all this kind of avalanche hitting you, you have to figure out what's important to each other. And we don't argue. Russell, I don't remember ever arguing about anything particularly.
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A
That's amazing.
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C
But we, we do have to know when to compromise and what, what, what's important to me. Sometimes he'll just let me have it, you know, or I'll let Russell have it, or I'll plant a seed with Russell and a couple months later he'll come back. He said, I had this great idea. It's like, oh, that is a great idea. You know, so we kind of figured out, I do that to you, Russell. You just don't know it. But I think we've had to figure out how to get on. We had so much happening that we couldn't dally around and not conclude. And I think for a lot of our architects, concluding is the hardest thing.
- [20:16]
A
Yeah.
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B
The other thing that we have, we made an agreement years and years ago. We have been very fortunate and only had a few projects that. Where we got cross with people. But when we're interviewing people, what. What they don't know is we are actually interviewing the clients, potential clients, to see if we want to work for them as much as they are interviewing us. And we just made an agreement with one another years ago. If either one of us are a little bit skeptical, something doesn't feel right, we just. We say, no, thank you, and we steer clear.
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A
You've both been really deeply involved with the icia, the Institute of Classical Architecture and Art, and you both lecture widely. Why do you think education and mentorship is such a key part of your work?
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C
Mentorship in particular is. Is another avenue to the people that you work with learning lessons that perhaps you've. You've already learned. One of the greatest mentorships that ever had me was. Was not really about architecture, was about being a social person in the. In relationship to people who might one day become clients. And so learning how to get out in the world and. And participate in it as a social creature has paid dividends as a professional.
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A
That's such a good piece of advice that I've never heard given in the context of what we do, but is so true.
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C
Yeah. If you're. If you're not out kind of making yourself aware or engaging in what the world has to offer, you're leaving a lot on the table that. Just for yourself, if nothing else.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Well, I. I've enjoyed being involved, really, on two levels. I just fundamentally think that architects and architecture right now in the state of the world are devastating and making the world ugly and a horrible place to live. And so there's a way to not do that. And it's through building beautiful places. And so for me, it's not just mentorship. It's trying to. And if people will just take a moment and say, why is one place nice and another place is not nice, why can't I advocate for good? Just in our time working, our involvement with the icaa, we're already seeing it's a little bit of a difference. There are more architecture schools teaching traditional and classical architecture than there has been in a long time. And that's exciting to see. It's exciting to see there's two or three startup firms in Houston from people that came from our office that are passionate. Oh, I love that they're doing really good work. And so that's, for me, the Biggest reason why I got involved. But after being involved, there's just nothing like a young architect you see yourself in. They're passionate, they're excited and to, to mentor them and to offer your hopefully a little time honored wisdom. It's just fantastic to see people doing great work.
- [23:33]
A
It's amazing. It's amazing also to hear that you both place it, mentorship and education as such a crucial piece of what you guys are doing because you look at it also as a way to guarantee longevity for classical architecture, which I think is such a wise way to. A wise lens to look at it. And I joined the icaa, there's like a young members group in New York and it's wonderful and, and we got memberships for everybody on my team and it's just fantastic. I mean the programming is incredible. So a little plug for the icaa. If you're anyone listening, you should definitely check them out and, and maybe try to go to an event. So let's chat a little bit about working in design. What is your favorite thing about doing what you do?
- [24:19]
C
I love the opportunity to get a job. I love thinking about how to strategize, about putting myself in a position to be person or the office that's acceptable to that client to do what they're talking about doing. And then I love to work on the part where we're conceptualizing and conceiving of it with my members of our staff. I find that just like an adrenaline rush. And it's like I hate to wait for someone to kind of process an idea that we're talking about because it takes time. I just want, I just want to have it. I just want to keep flowing with it. And you know, there's that, that term flow and you get a lot of good out of that. And I love that part the best. It's just totally rewarding me to see it emerge and see it get better and better iteratively, which is how we practice. We never, there's no walla here. It's just hard work and processing it over and over and over again. And Russell and I don't quit. We don't give up. It's like it can always be better. And so we're never afraid to just change the paradigm slightly and go at a different way. And it always gets better.
- [25:23]
B
I have to say, I still like the whole process. You know, it's great to chase a project, it's great to initiate it. I still like the part of putting together the drawings and figuring out how you're building it. And. Because what I really like about the profession is it's so diverse. And so whatever I'm. Whatever I'm feeling that day, if I'm feeling inspired and creative, I can go do that. If I want to go fight with a contractor because he's done something wrong, there's just some. There's some days I like a good fight and, you know, it's therapeutic, so I don't mind doing that either.
- [26:06]
A
That's so true. I know. It is multifaceted, what we get to do. I mean, you know, you're interfacing with. On the service end. You know, it's like a service business in terms of, like, working with the client, and then you've got vendors and contractors, and then, you know, you've. You can just kind of get lost in the creative portion of it in a solo way or with your team or with the client. I mean, there's so many different avenues that you can. It's like every day is a. Choose your own adventure a little bit.
- [26:33]
C
Yeah.
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A
Is there an architecture rule that either of you always follow and. Or do you think there's one that's particularly made to be broken?
- [26:41]
B
I'll jump in on that. It's funny, I don't really think there are rules. And, you know, being a classical architect, I think if people hear this, they mean, like, what is that guy talking about? There are no rules. You know, one thing that we talk about all the time, and I think it sort of sums that up, the two most important things are free, and that's scale and proportion. And so there's just no way around it. If you can't master those two components, you can't do anything. But if you really understand it and you can manipulate it, you know, you can make it. You can make a building or a room or a piece of furniture, say anything with just those two simple principles.
- [27:31]
C
I think it helps, too, Russell, that we're such students of architectural history. We, like some of our colleagues in America, have a huge library of architectural and decorative books, art books. And we are always looking at history as a way to support or justify an idea or inform something that we might evolve into another idea. I think you combine that with scale and proportion, boy, you have kind of an unstoppable situation where you can. You can really solve any problem totally.
- [28:02]
A
And that applies to design, too. I mean, I think the more history you know about, whether it's architecture or interior design, and the more you have the basics really down pat, then you can really fly and iterate on as many things as you want to. A little bit about both of you. What do you think your home says about each of you?
- [28:26]
C
Well, just built a house, finished it two years ago. I think it, it says all the things about those three words that I started this, this talk with about being appropriate and mannered and, and disciplined. But it has all those things. But we, we were working around a giant tree.
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A
Oh, wow.
- [28:44]
C
So I was having to pay attention to something that was a different kind of contextual situation. The tree won.
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A
Yeah.
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C
But we also knew that we want to live in a very well decorated house, so it's very colorful. Ann Wolf and Ashley Holden did the work on it with me and my wife Jane. And so I've really liked the fact that the landscape, the architecture and the decoration are an ideal confluence in how I wanted to create a house for us to live in. And so we tried to achieve that.
- [29:09]
A
And it's so special doing it for yourself. I mean, especially after doing it, I think it's harder to do it for yourself.
- [29:15]
C
It took some energy.
- [29:16]
A
Yeah. Yes.
- [29:18]
C
Well, you know, it's about concluding if you're into architectural history and you have a million examples floating around in your head, which Russell and I both do editing, and then getting to some, some synthesis of conclusion was the hard part.
- [29:29]
A
We got there totally. When you have a client and you know they're, you know, you have a very clear brief from the client of, it's just easier to say, oh, well, this is exactly where they should go. But when it's for yourself and you have so many different things that you love, it's definitely. It's much harder.
- [29:44]
B
I think my style would be considered again, I'll go back to old lady English experimental because everything's always changing. And my. Again, I'm married to an accountant. Opposites do attract. And she's like, you've already done this five times. Why are you, why do you keep changing everything?
- [30:04]
A
So that's amazing. I have to say, I'm the same way. And my husband's always like, we don't need another chair or sideboard or case piece or.
- [30:14]
C
Yes, you do. You need, you need more. Absolutely. You need.
- [30:17]
A
Exactly. Thank you. And now I can tell him that Bill and Russell said so and they agree with me.
- [30:22]
C
We agree.
- [30:23]
A
Where do you guys find your inspiration? I know, I know. I'm sure that library is, is a big piece of it.
- [30:29]
C
I see things when I travel, obviously. And it used to be that every trip had to go see certain specific buildings and whatnot. And now I'M more comfortable just observing as we go. Russell and I were in Chicago and we were. Had a project in Houston some years ago, and we saw this. Both saw this detail on a church that solved a problem that we'd both been mulling over. So, you know, you just have to be intuitively alert. And then I also enjoy painting watercolor. And that really has transformed the way I see architecture and what its colors and the values and how it presents itself. And its painting is more gestural as opposed to rigorous, like the architectural side of things. So that, yeah, that ability to see something for. From a different perspective has, I think, helped me open up and be able to explore some different things I might not have even been aware of before.
- [31:22]
A
Wow, that's so interesting. I love that.
- [31:25]
B
Well, for me, it's. It's, you know, books and travel and it really is the combination. I mean, obviously you can see a lot more in a book, but for me, when I see something in a book, I'm intrigued by it. And then when I actually get to see it and experience it, it's always just shocking to me how it's not quite exactly what I had conjured in my mind, you know, and it goes back. It goes back to scale and proportion. And most of the time when I see something, get to experience it after thinking about it and seeing it in books. There's something about the SC that just, you know, sort of blows my mind and I have to reframe how I think about it again, you know, and certainly that's. Lutyens is a great inspiration for both of us. And at this point, we've both seen a whole lot of his houses. And so all of those things, you know, you. You think about it for so long, and then to actually experience it. For me, that little readjustment is always. It's just so much fun.
- [32:39]
A
It's also so cool to be able to go, you know, you deep dive on these important historic homes and then you can actually physically go see them in person. It's so cool. Well, one thing I'm really excited to chat with you both about is your storefront that you made for us, which is a new. A new element of the show this season for Talkshop, where we are having all of our guests create their own storefront on Shop My. So a couple questions for you. I mean, one, what is currently on your wish list and what is your favorite thing that you put in your storefront?
- [33:16]
B
I have to tell you, until you ask us what's on your storefront, I Didn't know what the storefront was.
- [33:25]
A
Well, it's so cool because you can. One of my favorite things about working with Shop my Now and I have my own storefront that I'm adding to all the time, is you can put your favorite things, whether it's interiors or furniture pieces or entertaining pieces or books. Like, we have a whole library section on ours. And I saw you guys put some incredible books in your storefront, which everybody should go check out, but you can kind of create your own digital store on there. And I had so much fun looking through what you guys picked.
- [33:55]
C
I had a fun time working on that because we did not have that. So now we do. It's fantastic. But, you know, obviously led with books. I'm a. Both Russell and I buy books without even giving it a second thought. And there's always books coming in the office. And just to get one and open it up and be, you know, amused, amazed, inspired, whatever it is, is always. It's that rush feeling. It's like you're looking for something to kind of tweak you. We added a section about the Institute of Classical Architecture and Arts books because they are really doing great work at not only publishing the Classicist, which is. It's their magazine, which catalogs regional chapter activities. So the books on McKimmy White and Edwin Lutyns that they're republishing, which have been out of print for so long and unattainable for most people, those are great things. And then we do do a lot of shopping for our projects. And so there's some favorite stores and places where you can get things that we all like that were contained within there, I guess, which is what you'd expect.
- [34:55]
A
I was so excited looking through it. There were so many good picks. And I was really, really excited about the books because we. One of the questions that we always ask on the show is favorite design book, which we'll get to at the end of our take 10. But I'm constantly buying the books that our guests refer on here. And it's really exciting to have a place where we can catalog it now and listeners can go and click and see and find these things in real life, which is great. Is there something on your wish list that are in your storefronts that you. That you're excited about?
- [35:25]
C
Well, there's one picture on our. Our list and there's a. It's a picture of a foot. It's on a page where. Reference Jam in London, a great store. I was at Pritz Hanger Manor. Looking at John Soane's first house, which is an ealing outside of London, and I noticed that there's these carrotids on top of the parapet. Pretty bold move to put carrotids on top of your own house.
- [35:44]
A
But, yeah.
- [35:45]
C
Anyway, I somehow I got anecdotally reading about them, and they were made of cast material. They weren't carved like you'd expect them to be. From the 18th century. You would think they'd be carved. So I was at Jam later and that travels that week, and I noticed they had this sculpture laying around, and there was an arm that looked like a Michelangelo arm that would be in a painting in the Sistine Chapel. And there was a leg and a foot. So I called my wife and I said, I'm gonna. I'm gonna get one of these arms. I think it'd be great to have it in our house. And she vetoed it promptly. And I said, well, if we can't have an arm, we're gonna have a foot. So that foot's in there because things like 18 inches long. It's huge. But it's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful.
- [36:23]
A
Oh, my God. That's so funny. And Jam has the most incredible. It's one of the most beautiful places to visit. And also, like, the mantels are just out of this world. And the quality and craftsmanship.
- [36:37]
B
Well. And they're great to work with.
- [36:39]
A
Yes, they are wonderful to work with. What about you, Russell? What kind of items did you include in your storefront?
- [36:45]
B
I love furniture, too. And, you know, all that George Smith upholstered furniture is just fantastic. And there's such a wide, wide range of styles and vibes to all that furniture. I've always admired that. But then also that Liz o' Brien chair, so beautiful in so many ways. There's just a tweak to the proportions of it. So it seems familiar, but with that low back, that's just something a little different. There's so many good products out there now that are traditional. You know, when I first moved back from England, I wanted to start a chair company because chairs were just. They were just all made for big fat Americans, and they just changed the scale and it ruined everything.
- [37:40]
A
Well, to your point before, about. If you get the scale right, then you can. You can get everything right.
- [37:46]
B
Exactly. That's half the battle. And I don't know, there's just so many nice products out there that have a slight contemporary. They're not exactly the same, but they've evolved a little. And I don't know it's just kind of an exciting time.
- [38:07]
A
I think it is. There's so much out there. And I think one of the benefits of having especially like a curated storefront like this is you don't have to. People listening often are like, where do I start? Or where do I go? Or how do I look at the right silhouette to look for as I'm trying to furnish my home or you know, things like that. And to be able to go to a curated place like your shop, which listeners can click on in the link and in the show notes, it can really help people find beautiful, amazing things that they wouldn't have been otherwise been able to, to find. And it's curated so beautifully. So everybody listening. Definitely head over to Bill and Russell's shop and the link because it's, it's wonderful. Okay, so now we're going to get into our take 10, which are our final rapid fire questions, which have nothing really to do about design, but we always like to ask them because they are fun and I like to hear people's answers. So what is your favorite food?
- [39:06]
C
Indian food in London.
- [39:07]
B
He took that right away from me. I was, I'm even more specific. The lamb chops at Tamarind in Mayfair.
- [39:15]
A
Good.
- [39:16]
C
That's better. Russell, I'll give it to you.
- [39:18]
A
Yeah. Favorite drink?
- [39:21]
C
I'm a red wine guy. I love American red wines and French.
- [39:25]
B
For me, a gin martini, shaken, not stirred.
- [39:29]
A
Both very, very classic answers. It fits, I think. Favorite film?
- [39:33]
C
There's bunches. Right. But the one that kind of came to the top of my mind was Get Shorty.
- [39:38]
B
No, my favorite. No questions. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
- [39:42]
A
Another really classic, amazing movie. Favorite hotel. And you both travel so much, so I know you have been everywhere.
- [39:50]
C
It's likely we have the same answer, but I would say Claridge's.
- [39:52]
B
I knew Bill was going to answer Claridge's, so I'm going with the Connaught instead.
- [39:57]
A
Oh. Two incredible places, though. I mean, talk about legendary hotels. Favorite city. I think I, if I have to guess, I think you guys are going to say London.
- [40:08]
C
It's, it's, it's pretty much tops right now. Yeah. Yeah.
- [40:11]
A
Well, it's my favorite too, so. Favorite bedding? We always ask that because I always, like, we get like such a, a mix of like porto and linen and, and all these different answers.
- [40:22]
C
I enjoy Matouk.
- [40:24]
A
Me too. So crisp.
- [40:26]
C
Yeah.
- [40:26]
B
Perfect on the same page.
- [40:28]
A
I love that. Tea or coffee? And how do you take it?
- [40:31]
C
Iced tea, black, no lemon, no sugar.
- [40:34]
B
I don't think Bill's ever even had a cup of coffee.
- [40:37]
C
Never.
- [40:37]
A
That is amazing.
- [40:38]
C
Never. Never. That's saying something. You go all the way through architecture school. No coffee. But it happens.
- [40:43]
A
Yes. Seriously.
- [40:44]
B
Mine is coffee. And I can have it black or latte, but just black coffee is fine for me.
- [40:50]
A
Favorite playlist or music to listen to.
- [40:53]
C
My kids are all in their 20s, and they know every song from the 70s because I've made them listen to it in my car the whole time. So I would have to say 70s.
- [41:00]
A
I love that.
- [41:01]
B
Mine's sort of diverse. I. Right now I'm listening to a lot of Parker McCollum, you know, and it can go from there to the Old Water Boys. It's just all over the place.
- [41:11]
A
It's amazing how you can grow up. My dad is 78, so I grew up with a lot of Sinatra in my house and Tony Bennett and Era. And then my mom is 64, so I also grew up with a lot of 70s, so I, like, run the gamut of knowledge of these things just because of, like, osmosis with my parents. Favorite weekend activity?
- [41:34]
C
Well, I'll either be painting watercolors or I'll be hacking around trying to play golf.
- [41:39]
B
I like being outside as much as I can, and I don't get to do it as much as. As. I mean, I like downtime, but also, you know, we're from Texas. I love to quail shoot and fly fish and even go snow skiing. So that's my downtime stuff. I'm not sure it's weekend, but that's downtime stuff.
- [41:58]
A
Yeah. And being outside, I think also just in general, like, you get so much inspiration from nature, too, and so good for you.
- [42:06]
B
Yeah.
- [42:06]
A
Okay. The hardest question that I think we ask everyone. Favorite design book?
- [42:11]
C
I think the one that I touch most frequently is this, the monograph on the work of Mellor Migs and Howe, the great mainline Philadelphia architects. It's just so packed with information and all the good things I'm going to.
- [42:25]
A
Have to get that. I'm from Gladwin.
- [42:26]
C
Okay. Well, you should have it. It's fantastic.
- [42:28]
A
Yeah.
- [42:29]
C
And it had essays by, like, Paul Cray and people that were Philadelphia stalwarts, and it's drawn and photographed beautifully. In fact, Russell and I have been on these journeys where we've kind of stalked those houses and. And have had more than a few adventures trying to get close to them. But it's a great book.
- [42:47]
A
It's such a special place in the Main Line.
- [42:51]
C
I was there once, and we were. I was Looking at this house I'd always wanted to see called the McCracken House. And I got close to it and this dog came running after me. This, he was like master, if he was as big as I was. And I started running because I had no choice. And I could see my wife in the car like 100 yards away. And I'm going, I'm not gonna make it. This thing's gonna eat.
- [43:09]
A
Oh, my God, that's hysterical.
- [43:10]
C
Stop just abruptly because he had an invisible collar on. And Russell. And I've always said you can't really. You can't really be a good architect unless you've risked life and limb to go kind of see this stuff.
- [43:20]
A
I mean, that's true dedication and passion right there.
- [43:23]
C
It is absolutely.
- [43:24]
B
You know, for me, I was passionate about architecture and early on, saw early work going on at Seaside, Florida and magazines and so I went to work for the firm that was doing the first houses there.
- [43:39]
A
Oh, wow.
- [43:40]
B
That. The guy I worked for, Robert Orr, was into books. And it was the first time I'd been exposed to, you know, sort of studying architecture through precedent and books. And so, you know, people ask me all the time, what's your favorite book? It'd be like, who's your favorite child? It's just too hard.
- [44:01]
A
I know. It's like the hardest question.
- [44:04]
B
Yeah. I think just learning to use books as precedent for architecture was just a revelation to me. And it sounds so obvious that, you know, I don't understand why that was so such a significant moment for you, but it really was. And learning also the backup and argument, why should we do that? Well, look, McKim bead and white did it or, or whoever. So, man, it's just too hard to say which one we, you know, we use luncheons all the time. We love luncheons. There's too many.
- [44:40]
C
I too had that experience where my mentor man named Warren Cox had an incredible personal library and he would. He got to where he trusted me enough to share bits and pieces of it with me. So it's the first time I ever saw the four books and a real one and, and others. He handed me a Stuart and Revett one day when we were talking about the Doric Order and just began to be fascinated with where that information might take me and how it might aid. So I agree with Russell. Really, there's. There's hard to pick a favorite. But I notice our melon migs is pretty dog eared.
- [45:09]
B
Yeah.
- [45:10]
A
Well, this has been so much fun. I have learned so much from both of You. And I'm so glad that. That you guys got to come on. Final few words. What are you working on right now? Is there any new or exciting project you can talk about?
- [45:24]
C
Yeah, we don't have sort of complete restriction about that from our clients, thank goodness. We get to talk a little bit about what we're. And our practice has evolved a lot where we're working on a lot of different kind of projects, these same clients that we had early on, or take us to other venues, other typological opportunities, if you will. We're doing several schools in Houston right now that are.
- [45:44]
A
Wow, that's so cool.
- [45:45]
C
It is cool. It is a lot of fun. And from a school to a stone cabin on the bank of a river in Central Texas out in the middle of nowhere that looks like an old fire tower. So we just try to respond in a creative way for whatever our clients are offering us and wherever it is.
- [46:04]
A
That's awesome.
- [46:05]
B
The great thing about having such horrible weather all summer in Houston.
- [46:09]
A
My cousin lives there. It's so bad in the summer. It's so, so, so hot.
- [46:14]
C
It is.
- [46:15]
B
But the great thing about that, all the clients we work for in Houston need a second place to get out of that heat.
- [46:22]
A
Oh.
- [46:23]
B
So they load their hunting dogs and their architects up and take us to really fabulous places.
- [46:30]
A
And I. Yep.
- [46:30]
B
I have been on the road for a while just because we just finished a really big project in the Cotswolds in England for a really good Houston client. And that's been fun because the craft, the craftsman there, it's been a delight to work with. And then we're also. We're doing a bunch of work down in the Bahamas. And that's. That's interesting. The crafts aren't like they are in England, but it's kind of what's interesting about traditional architecture. You have to figure out what can the market. And I don't mean cost, but just what can the market do? Because you can't ask people to do things that they can't or, you know, everyone's just frustrated.
- [47:14]
A
Yeah. And I'm sure, like, that, in turn, shapes the vernacular of the location, too.
- [47:19]
C
Yes, absolutely, it does.
- [47:22]
B
I mean, that's the beauty of traditional architecture, is the vernacular is the vernacular, typically for good reason. So you have to tap into that and understand it. And there's one or two of them we probably should have understood a little better because we were having to import so much stuff that the market just can't do, so.
- [47:42]
A
Oh, yeah. I bet. But what cool places to Be working in simultaneously.
- [47:47]
B
It is. So we, we have been very fortunate and extremely busy.
- [47:53]
A
And our last question that we always ask everyone, what is your best advice for someone looking to define their own interiors or architectural style?
- [48:02]
C
I think that you gotta have passion. Without it, you're just kind of run aground before you get started. And you have to have sort of an energy level that you self sustain to make yourself pleased with with your results. And to be not afraid to change your thought process to go in a slightly different direction may help you solve the problem. And so just being flexible and being inspired by your travels and your readings and looking at paintings or just observations in a city, all those things add up. And if you're working with great people, those people can inspire you as well. So it's a holistic sort of immersion that I think if you're not in it, I don't know how you get anywhere.
- [48:47]
B
I would agree completely. You just, you have to have a whole lot of passion, a whole lot of drive, but be willing to listen. You know, I do think that architecture and design is created when everyone, whether it's the client, the architect, the contractor, everyone listens and really wants to work toward an end result. That makes everyone happy. But it really is passion that drives this stuff.
- [49:16]
A
It's true passion. And hearing other people and coming to a common ground on a project, I think those two things together are such a recipe for success. Well, Bill and Russell, this was such a delight and I'm so happy and to have had you on and I'm so excited to meet you guys at your book party in a couple days.
- [49:35]
C
Fantastic.
- [49:36]
A
And congratulations again on, on the release of your book with Rizzoli. Building on tradition, the work of Curtis and Windham Architects is out now. So for those listening, we're going to link it in the show notes and everybody should get a copy. It's absolutely stunning and has so much amazing information in it. Thank you. And where can listeners find more about you and the firm?
- [49:57]
B
The best place is our website. You know, we're pretty basic when it comes to marketing and whatnot, but your.
- [50:04]
A
Website was just rebranded and it's so beautiful.
- [50:07]
B
It was. They did a fantastic job and we're happy with it. And so I think it captures sort of who we are and where we are right now. And I think it represents, you know, architecture that's about clients, their place and their budget. It's not about us. We're just the interpreters.
- [50:24]
A
Well, this was amazing and I'm really looking forward to seeing you guys later. This week. Thank you so, so much for coming on.
- [50:31]
C
Thanks, Ariel. It's been a pleasure to be on the show with you.
- [50:33]
B
It has, and we'll see you later.
- [50:38]
A
Thanks again to my guest today for joining me. And to shop my for sponsoring this season of Talkshop, head to the Show Notes to create your free shopper account and explore the curated storefronts from this season's designers. We'll be back next week week with more thoughtful discussions and amazing guests. Follow us on Apple, podcasts, Spotify and YouTube so you never miss an episode. And of course, follow me. Arielle Oken. See you next week.